Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[havingfitz]

Fitz, are you really willing to end the day already with a policy lynch?

This.

There's no rational call for a policy lynch on Day 2, unless that player is still actively disrupting town, which he isn't. I'm also stumped as to how a policy lynch can sound like a good idea in the first 24 hours of a new day.

@Fitz - Can you share your thoughts on both DaesVail and kelbris, specifically?

I've given my thoughts on voting Transcend. Disagree as you wish.

My thoughts atm are still as they were here.

... so one sentence on kelbris, and nothing at all to explain your DaesVail read.

Is there no reason behind your DaesVail read?

An absence of observed actions/posts I find suspect supporting POE.

[boring]

So these are my reasons for voting Transcend:
- His actions that everyone is aware of is legitimately scummy to me.
- There is a low risk to lynching him since he isn't exactly a good townie anyway.
- We could potentially learn what the last PR is if he flips scum.

1) I believe this is a legitimate read on your part so whatever, the day is young.
2) the risk is another dead townie when we could be lynching scum. Going into D3 with 4 dead town and a fully-functioning scum team is kind of a big deal.
3) I don't even understand how that's a) the logical result of a scum!Transcend flip, b) important, or c) good.

who is your second-highest scum read?

[mutantdevle]

So these are my reasons for voting Transcend:
- His actions that everyone is aware of is legitimately scummy to me.
- There is a low risk to lynching him since he isn't exactly a good townie anyway.
- We could potentially learn what the last PR is if he flips scum.

1) I believe this is a legitimate read on your part so whatever, the day is young.
2) the risk is another dead townie when we could be lynching scum. Going into D3 with 4 dead town and a fully-functioning scum team is kind of a big deal.
3) I don't even understand how that's a) the logical result of a scum!Transcend flip, b) important, or c) good.

who is your second-highest scum read?

Possibly kelbris. I'd have to think about it more though.

And of course, 4 dead townies is not good. There is a risk everyone we lynch is town so that is no reason not to vote Transcend. It's just he is a less useful town member so we wouldn't be losing as much which is what I refer to as a lower risk. Lower risk = less lost.

And that would be logical of his flip because he claimed to be a vigilante possibly to lure out the vigilante and make them counterclaim like he did with the jail keeper.

[Fishythefish]

Transcend

I think the Transcend wagon is a bad one:
- His claim is not scummy. His stated reason for making the claim is a plausible gambit, and I've not seen one person voting for him giving a better explanation. Yes, the claim ended up being negative for the town, and I happen to agree that it was unwise (though not clearly so). That isn't enough to justify why scum!Transcend would have done it.
- UC's point here about "random pushes he didn't back up at all" is better. I'm not good at reading a playstyle like Transcend, but his D1 pushes certainly never made me think he was town.
- If we are policy lynching

to win the game

, Transcend is not the best policy lynch. His playstyle is hard to read, but information heavy. You can bet that if he's here on, say, D4, he'll have had enough interactions that we have a good chance at reading him. We'd do better to lynch whoever is least contentful.
- The only reason I see to lynch Transcend is a policy lynch

to have more fun

. And

I'm not here to have fun

I don't think that's the way of dealing with that problem (I also don't find the game less fun with Transcend in it, except in sympathy when other people find it really awful).

DV

Rereading because he's what's hot - I'm kind of torn.
- I agree that he's playing a safe game - Luca puts it well here.
- In specific posts, nothing makes me think scum and a few things make me think town; that's put him in my townpile until now. I quite like his big reads post - particularly the reads on Viomi and sheep, which seem very honest. Post 84 also pinged me as town, though now Luca's got me thinking that it's a weird thing to think, and so maybe that ping was deliberate.

Overall, I think he could be scum who is good at pressing some of my towntell buttons.
VOTE: DV

I think

boring

is pretty likely to be scum given Day 1. The wagons through the day, never quite reaching a lynch, which were full of townie goodness - I don't think scum wanted that lynch. It's a really... er... dull way of thinking someone's scum, because there's no way to respond to it. I've got no strong read on boring's actual play.

There are a few too many people in this game who I can't really think of anything interesting about. I'll be sorting that out soon - this weekend at the latest.

fishy still reads town but i specced a game he was scum in and beasted it so i'm a lil scared

Ha. I was wondering if you were going to start doubting me here after you commented on that one. TBH I have very little reassurance for you - I don't know a reliable way to tell my scum game from my town game.

[Luca Blight]

@Fitz

- you didn't answer whether you liked my plan in 910.

Honestly, you seem far too comfortable lynching Transcend/sitting on that wagon right now, and your 950 regarding Dea doesn't cut it when I brought up many 'suspect' posts on the accused and you didn't address any of them. Surely if you disagree with what I said you should say so?

[Transcend]

Fishy why do i feel like you're white knighting me

You wanted me dead so badly yesterday

[boring]

Rem's last post was 7 days ago. Surely, she's somewhere in prod territory by now.

[davesaz]

Day start PMs are effectively prods as well.

[boring]

And Fish calling him DV is fucking me up. I work in a field where I can say "DV" upwards of 20 times a day, as short for "domestic violence". Now, DeasVail is "domestic violence" in my head.

@Ecto, do you have an opinion on DeasVail?

[Fishythefish]

Fishy why do i feel like you're white knighting me

You wanted me dead so badly yesterday

Reread me - I really didn't.

[DeasVail]

I’m going to have to V/LA for 2 days. I’m really sorry everyone. Work has been especially busy.

I plan on getting back into this in full force over the weekend though.

[havingfitz]

ffs you are needy Luca.

wrt #910 - I agree Transcend should have been the D1 lynch (as evidenced by where I was voting to end D1).

If you want to lynch someone else (Deasvail or whomever) make a case on them that the majority of people support. I'm voting who I want gone.

I actually do not dislike Transcend and think he is a solid player, but in mutual games with him which I can recall...it seems he always winds up having stretches of asshole or dumbass play which make it not enjoyable or frustrating to play with him. And despite this I do not have a Transcend lynch policy...I have an "anyone who does lots of shit against the best interests of town/lies and outs town PRs" lynch policy.

I'm 100% completely comfortable being on the Transcend wagon.

As for whether my reasoning for town reading someone does or doesn't cut it with you...that's your problem. Not everyone has to be as verbose as you to have a read on someone. And I somewhat recall seeing a long post by you towards Deasvail but I couldn't be bothered to do an in depth analysis of it. That said...I've looked a few of your Deasvail posts over and I do not see any merit in what you are calling him out for.

You say he hasn't taken any hard stances. I would say voting someone to L-1 and leaving it there through end of day is a hard stance.

You say his vote on sheep was pointless as we near deadline....he votes sheep Wed Nov 8th (post 554) and unvotes him 3 DV posts later the very next day (Nov 9th). He spends the last three RL days of D1 on boring. So how is his sheep vote 5 days before we lynched a time critical tell? Especially when he spent the majority of that time voting the same person you were?

You even caveat your vote on him with "he hasn't done anything overtly scummy"...no shit. So let's vote him! No thanks. There are at least 5 other players I would vote before I would consider Deasvail att. Including you.



And I would say the Fish vote on DV is the first thing he's done that strikes me as suspect. He basically admits he is torn and talks about all the town things he sees wrt DV and then decides to vote him for coming across as town. This despite the person he voted to end D1 still being "pretty likely to be scum" in his estimation. I don't get his support of the Luca DV points or his preference for a DV vote over others.

[davesaz]

Vote Count 2.3

Transcend(4) - kelbris, UC Voyager, mutantdevle, havingfitz
DeasVail(3) - Luca Blight, boring, Fishythefish

not voting (4) - Fishythefish, Rem, Ectomancer, DeasVail, Transcend

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch
(expired on 2017-11-28 17:00:00)

Given Rem's last visit says Nov 8th, I'm going to post a replacement request.

[Luca Blight]

ffs you are needy Luca.

wrt #910 - I agree Transcend should have been the D1 lynch (as evidenced by where I was voting to end D1).

If you want to lynch someone else (Deasvail or whomever) make a case on them that the majority of people support. I'm voting who I want gone.

I actually do not dislike Transcend and think he is a solid player, but in mutual games with him which I can recall...it seems he always winds up having stretches of asshole or dumbass play which make it not enjoyable or frustrating to play with him. And despite this I do not have a Transcend lynch policy...I have an "anyone who does lots of shit against the best interests of town/lies and outs town PRs" lynch policy.

I'm 100% completely comfortable being on the Transcend wagon.

So basically you're now done for the day? You want a Transcend lynch and are not willing to look elsewhere.

Now who's being anti-town?

As for whether my reasoning for town reading someone does or doesn't cut it with you...that's your problem. Not everyone has to be as verbose as you to have a read on someone. And I somewhat recall seeing a long post by you towards Deasvail but I couldn't be bothered to do an in depth analysis of it. That said...I've looked a few of your Deasvail posts over and I do not see any merit in what you are calling him out for.

You sound disinterested. Did you even bother reading what I wrote regarding Deas?

You say he hasn't taken any hard stances. I would say voting someone to L-1 and leaving it there through end of day is a hard stance.

You say his vote on sheep was pointless as we near deadline....he votes sheep Wed Nov 8th (post 554) and unvotes him 3 DV posts later the very next day (Nov 9th). He spends the last three RL days of D1 on boring. So how is his sheep vote 5 days before we lynched a time critical tell? Especially when he spent the majority of that time voting the same person you were?

Putting the easiest wagon in the game to L-1 isn't exactly a 'hard stance'.

I explained already about the Sheep vote - not only did it not achieve anything but it conflicted with his earlier townread on him. He then turns back to Boring, scumreading her for reasons he earlier gave her credit for (her early attack on me).

You even caveat your vote on him with "he hasn't done anything overtly scummy"...no shit. So let's vote him! No thanks. There are at least 5 other players I would vote before I would consider Deasvail att. Including you.

Right, so you want to play 'lynch the player who does the most scummy things'?

As I said earlier, there are some scum players who are capable of not giving people a multitude of reasons to suspect them - by your level of scumhunting you'd basically be giving any decent scum player a guaranteed win.

[UC Voyager]

I just read DVs iso and reread some id the game.
UNVOTE:
I will explain my thoughts when I'm not mobile

[havingfitz]

@Luca....

Rather than putting words in my mouth to make shitty shading attempts towards me why not just actually try and come up with a coherent case on me (or anyone for that matter) and vote where your mouth is?

Where do you get off saying I'm "done for the day" and that I'm "not willing to look elsewhere?"

Just in the last ~24 hours:

1) I've posed questions and provided opinions towards others not related to Transcend.
2) I've answered questions not related to Transcend from more than one player.

How is any of that "anti-town?" WTF do you even get that assessment from? Am I at the bottom of today's effort meter?

I have not said I'm opposed to voting outside of Transcend today. What I am doing right now is voting for who I want out of the game. He's not the only one that falls in that category and if anyone else I have strong suspicions towards is in a position to be lynched I will definitely considering moving my vote. DV isn't in that category att.

--------------------------

I sound disinterested? That's really quantifiable. /sarcasm I glossed over your Deasvail comments when I first came to them because wall. I did read them prior to my response to you...as I indicate. If glossing over walls initially = disinterest...then yes...I am disinterested...always.

--------------------------

Rather than stating what isn't a hard stance why don't you give an example of what does meet your high standards of commitment? And I do not recall seeing anything in your post this day maligning DV for his sheep vote other than it being pointless and the timing of it...or anything wrt boring. You might have said it a few game days back but my total recall is out of order. If you have a better case on DV than his sheep vote as we approached deadline was pointless please provide better reference material.

--------------------------

Nice ad-homs wrt my level of scumhunting. How did your level of scumhunting work out for you D1? Are you tr'ing boring now? If so...why? If not...why hold Deavail's D1 boring voting (in conjunction w/ you) against him? Are they partners?

You go ahead and lynch people you think come across as town, I'll lynch people I think come across as scum...or excessively anti-town.

[Fishythefish]

And I would say the Fish vote on DV is the first thing he's done that strikes me as suspect. He basically admits he is torn and talks about all the town things he sees wrt DV and then decides to vote him for coming across as town. This despite the person he voted to end D1 still being "pretty likely to be scum" in his estimation. I don't get his support of the Luca DV points or his preference for a DV vote over others.

I'm not voting DV for coming across as town. What I was saying (or trying to say) was:
- There have been a few things DV has done that pinged me as town; those were what my read was based on before my reread.
- One of the points Luca made makes me doubt one of those town-pings as fake, which makes me discount them a bit.
- When I look at his play overall, it fits very well with under-the-radar scum.
So yes, I am torn, but overall I think the scumminess outweighs the few things that made me think he was town. Does that make sense?

On thinking DV scum despite DV voting boring - a) I don't have a strong enough scumread on boring for that to influence my thinking and b) I actually don't think they are unlikely partners at all. DV's play (joining the wagon twice at L-1) fits quite well with scum who doesn't want their partner to die, but wants to look good if they do.

To expand on why I think DV fits with under-the-radar scum: basically, I don't think he's done anything controversial all game. His votes have been easy ones - on large wagons or in one case a lurker - and his other scumreads have been caveated enough not to cause any conflict. Check these out, from DV's major reads post:

Transcend - Weak Scum

I can't explain this read very well, but I remember getting the impression at the beginning of the game that despite the trolliness and hyper-posting, there was a pro-town agenda there. I could see a strong town argument for how Transcend was approaching the game. However, now as I'm looking through his posts, I'm struck by the odd feeling that Transcend doesn't really have that much belief in his reads or what he's saying. It feels.... hollow somehow.

I don't want to pursue this scumread (if you could even call it that) right now and it's probably the least confident of all my reads, but it's something I will be thinking about.

-

Boring -

Somewhere between town and scum

Elmo's play perfectly fit the mold of caught scum for me, but I need to account for the likelihood of confirmation bias there as boring's posts in isolation probably wouldn't lead me to a scumread on the slot. Elmo's play will always have an impact on my read here, but there are things from boring that I do like. I like that she took on Luca Blight, one of the more prolific and dominant posters upon entering the thread. As weird as it might sound, I like the back-and-forth that she's done on her read of me. The way she's done it feels town to me. Nothing SUPERTOWN, though.

(Mild niggle from her suspicion of me for putting "easy targets" in the lynch pool, when she came in attacking Luca Blight. Did she do that because she associates going after stronger players with town? Hmmm.)

I will be watching you!

-

kelbris - Weak Scum

There's not much there and again, I have found myself agreeing with other people's posts on him.

I don't think I'll be voting there right now though.

-

sheepsaysmeep - Weak Scum

In the interest of full disclosure, I've gone into this reads list thinking that this is where I'd end up voting. He's coasted by with very little attention while doing barely anything and it does get to the point where my previous town-lean for his blatant "I'm not reading the thread" does not really fly anymore. And I think this is that time. I feel like town would have gotten their act together and actually tried to contribute by now, especially considering the uncertainty following boring's replace-in. While I guess there's no reason for scum to if he's not in the line of fire for it.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

Bolding mine. DV gives three scummish reads ('cos that read on boring is actually a scumread) while making it clear he's not doing anything about them, and then votes a lurker. This really looks like DV is going out of his way not to get into fights with his scumreads.

[Transcend]

Hey, ha ha ha

Friendly doggo here to remind you that the rem slot is still scum

[UC Voyager]

Im reading DV's iso and it is terrifying

He has several naked votes! This pings me for scum! I do not see where the town motivation in naked voting is
--------------------------------------------
He says that he scum reads sheep, transcend, and Kelbris then votes for Boring????? what the hell

earlier he made a crazy lynch pool then voted for Iceguy who wasn't even listed!
--------------------------------------------------

He has said things like
"scum are more emotionally involved"
This terrifies me because he hasn't been a huge power player. He is trying to tell us how scum act, so they can act differently, so he can avoid scum reads!
--------------------------------
he said that he won't be active til tomorrow
makes one post
i will be v/la for the next few days
I know that people can't control when they are v/la but the fact he made a post after he said he wouldn't be able to post for a day
----------------------------------
He was not pushing Boring til the end of day one. before that, he was pushing for someone else.
It really seems like he was trying to earn some town credit for not being on the wagon. I don't even see where he made a case on boring.
-----------------------------------
He town readed sheep for a while, then pulled a 180 and voted for me!


scum will avoid the lynch 30% of the time! They do this because it is easy town credit, and i am thinking there is a good chance of a scum buddy bussing!
------------------------------------
Im not sure if i think that transcend could be scum buddy, but im starting to think he isn't

[boring]

I keep getting stuck on Fitz. The cattiness in his responses feel like irritated scum. Like he's trying to dismiss arguments rather than address them. Though admittedly, I've been on the recipient end of Luca's attention, and I can attest that it is exhausting enough to make anyone feel catty.

More importantly, It still looks like he's put far more effort into defending himself than any other aspect of this game.

Also, I wonder if his Transcend thing could be a chainsaw attempt? That's a stretch, I know, but it keeps popping in my head.

[Fishythefish]

VOTE: UC

968 is such a bad case I think UC must have started with a decision to jump on the DV wagon and gone from there. (I can go into detail some time if nobody else rips it apart first, but right now it's time to sleep)

[mutantdevle]

I don’t think I actually trust anyone anymore...

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto, do you have an opinion on DeasVail?

Let me answer it tangentially.

First let me get out of the way that I think Luca, Transcend, and Boring are town.

Now Boring made the statement that if her read on Transcend were correct that there were no scum wagons yesterday. I have Boring and Transcend on my town list and so I am going to passively agree and next ask the question, what scum behavior leads to that outcome?

We can have some active scumbag driving wagons.

But we came to near the deadline didn't we? That could indicate a general unwillingness of the town to lynch but I don't believe that is the feeling around here.

So the other way seems to match the pattern. Scum sits back and let's the town form wagons on town. If they are lucky enough for that to happen and sometimes all it takes is a slight nudge, then they can sit back non-committal to those mis-lynches and park their vote somewhere safe. Maybe even on their scum buddy who hasn't gotten any real pressure anyhow.

One of those descriptions are fairly accurate to Deas. I realize I haven't said how a town Deas would act either. So I'll just say different. A town Deas would act different.

[UC Voyager]

VOTE: UC

968 is such a bad case I think UC must have started with a decision to jump on the DV wagon and gone from there. (I can go into detail some time if nobody else rips it apart first, but right now it's time to sleep)

hmmm.

A random jump if you ask me.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca....

Rather than putting words in my mouth to make shitty shading attempts towards me why not just actually try and come up with a coherent case on me (or anyone for that matter) and vote where your mouth is?

I did vote where my mouth is - Deas is my main suspect and that's who I'm voting. Or do you think I should vote whoever I happen to be interacting with at any given time?

Where do you get off saying I'm "done for the day" and that I'm "not willing to look elsewhere?"

Just in the last ~24 hours:

1) I've posed questions and provided opinions towards others not related to Transcend.
2) I've answered questions not related to Transcend from more than one player.

How is any of that "anti-town?" WTF do you even get that assessment from? Am I at the bottom of today's effort meter?

I have not said I'm opposed to voting outside of Transcend today. What I am doing right now is voting for who I want out of the game. He's not the only one that falls in that category and if anyone else I have strong suspicions towards is in a position to be lynched I will definitely considering moving my vote. DV isn't in that category att.

The only question you posed not related to Transcend was asking me why I'm not voting Boring, which either shows you're not being attentive at best or is fake scumhunting/deflecting at worst, because the answer should have already been apparent why I was not voting Boring.

The anti-town bit refers to being happy with a policy lynch so early in the day in posts such as 923. I asked you a couple of times about what you thought about my plan in 910 about lynching Transcend only if no other clear lynch candidate emerges and you didn't agree.

Rather than stating what isn't a hard stance why don't you give an example of what does meet your high standards of commitment? And I do not recall seeing anything in your post this day maligning DV for his sheep vote other than it being pointless and the timing of it...or anything wrt boring. You might have said it a few game days back but my total recall is out of order. If you have a better case on DV than his sheep vote as we approached deadline was pointless please provide better reference material.

Everything you've said here just shows you aren't reading properly. Read my posts on Deas today and you'll see the timing of Deas' Sheep vote is far from my only reason for suspecting him.

As for hard stances, the only one that could be argued for Deas was his original vote/case against Elmo which is pretty much the only Deas post I've liked this game.

Nice ad-homs wrt my level of scumhunting. How did your level of scumhunting work out for you D1? Are you tr'ing boring now? If so...why? If not...why hold Deavail's D1 boring voting (in conjunction w/ you) against him? Are they partners?

You go ahead and lynch people you think come across as town, I'll lynch people I think come across as scum...or excessively anti-town.

It wasn't an ad-hom - it was based directly on how you're playing this game.

As for my scumhunting, if you were reading (we've already established you're not) you'd see that I wasn't happy with any of the lynch candidates come the end of D1 and wanted a flash-wagon on Deas, which no-one was interested in.

I've already made clear my position on Boring not only on D1 but also in response to you already today.

Yeah, let's just go ahead and lynch someone who is 'excessively anti-town' on D2 regardless of the fact there is a strong likelihood they will flip Town...