Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[davesaz]

Vote Count 2.4

DeasVail(3) - Luca Blight, boring, UC Voyager
Transcend(3) - kelbris, mutantdevle, havingfitz
UC Voyager(1) - Fishythefish

not voting (4) - ProHawk, Ectomancer, DeasVail, Transcend

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch
(expired on 2017-11-28 17:00:00)

[Luca Blight]

@Voyager

- do you feel like answering Fishy's case against you?

[boring]

@Ecto - I don't understand why you're holding out to be the hammer for Deas. It's an abrupt change from your D1 MO. Why not just vote, and then try to rally more votes?

[UC Voyager]

@Voyager

- do you feel like answering Fishy's case against you?

responding to a case won't help me scum hunt!


Also, i do kind of find it funny how you placed the format thing on me, but realised the only game we are in together was the one where i was scum, so different format isn't really a bad thing.

one sec. i want to look into a few posts

[UC Voyager]

DeasVail
How did i missread your posts. It seems to me Like they meant something different then you say they do. if you could explain that to me

[UC Voyager]

So yeah, UC's case on DV is just impressively bad.
- Some of it is things that just aren't scumtells
- Some of it is places where UC has misread DV, or is misrepresenting him badly
- In one juicy bit, I think UC slips that he knows boring's alignment
I think this case clearly came from a UC deciding to vote DV, and then justifying it - I just can't imagine it being a genuine read from DV's posting. That's not something town never do, but scum do it a hell of a lot more.

Luca

: what do you think about UC here?

Im reading DV's iso and it is terrifying

He has several naked votes! This pings me for scum! I do not see where the town motivation in naked voting is

UC doesn't explain why these are scummy, but hey, this is gold dust compared to the rest of the case.

--------------------------------------------
He says that he scum reads sheep, transcend, and Kelbris then votes for Boring????? what the hell

These posts are 6 pages apart with massive wagon context UC ignores.

earlier he made a crazy lynch pool then voted for Iceguy who wasn't even listed!

That's just not true. DV did

unvote

IceGuy, which I guess was what UC saw here.

He has said things like
"scum are more emotionally involved"
This terrifies me because he hasn't been a huge power player. He is trying to tell us how scum act, so they can act differently, so he can avoid scum reads!

The point about DV saying scum are emotionally involved while being a backseat player himself kinda sounds good, but read it in context. Firstly, DV said scum are

less

emotionally involved. Secondly, DV said that about Viomi replacing out. There's no reading of it where it is relevant to people who aren't getting upset about the game. Go read this in context.

he said that he won't be active til tomorrow
makes one post
i will be v/la for the next few days
I know that people can't control when they are v/la but the fact he made a post after he said he wouldn't be able to post for a day

Going on V/LA is just not a scumtell.

He was not pushing Boring til the end of day one. before that, he was pushing for someone else.
It really seems like he was trying to earn some town credit for not being on the wagon. I don't even see where he made a case on boring.

Huh?

Does UC know boring is town?

I don't see how else this makes sense.

He town readed sheep for a while, then pulled a 180 and voted for me!


scum will avoid the lynch 30% of the time! They do this because it is easy town credit, and i am thinking there is a good chance of a scum buddy bussing!

I don't know what this means.

@UC:

what lynch were you talking about here, and who are you referring to when you talk about bussing?

meh. i might as well

1) how am i miss reading it?
2) how is it artificial
3) i didn't slip. i was just finding it scummy he said he scum read someone, but then voted for someone else. I don't see how i could imply that i knew Borings allignment

[UC Voyager]

Hi! Haven't read much yet, but I should get to it tomorrow.

finished reading yet?

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto - I don't understand why you're holding out to be the hammer for Deas. It's an abrupt change from your D1 MO. Why not just vote, and then try to rally more votes?

Because at that position I can either drive the train forward or apply the brakes. It sort of depends upon how it arrives at that junction. It puts me in a stronger position of control than kick starting a wagon and rallying the troops. That's sufficient for D1, but not really optimal for D2.

[Luca Blight]

@Voyager

- do you feel like answering Fishy's case against you?

responding to a case won't help me scum hunt!


Also, i do kind of find it funny how you placed the format thing on me, but realised the only game we are in together was the one where i was scum, so different format isn't really a bad thing.

one sec. i want to look into a few posts

So you're ignoring the fact that you were conf scum to me in that game for longer than you've been in this one, and the fact we have two other completed games together in which you were Town.

To be honest I feel UCV probably is scum here - possibly on the same scumteam as Deas. UCV learnt the benefits of bussing as scum in the last game we were in and his Deas case feels forced.

[UC Voyager]

ng the fact that you were conf scum to me in that game for longer than you've been in this one, and the fact we have two other completed games together in which you were Town.

In that other game, i was literally forced to bus, lol, i still don't like the idea of it!

Im sorry. i forgot we were actually together in Mini Normal: Flairs, but im not sure of any other FINISHED game we were in together

[Luca Blight]

The Mandela one.

[UC Voyager]

The Mandela one.

oh yea!

[Fishythefish]

meh. i might as well

1) how am i miss reading it?
2) how is it artificial
3) i didn't slip. i was just finding it scummy he said he scum read someone, but then voted for someone else. I don't see how i could imply that i knew Borings allignment

I think this is a response to my summary. You really have to get into the individual points to answer 1) and 2).

3) - firstly, looking again I don't actually think this is a scumslip. Sorry, that was too strong. Have you read that boring vote in context? In particular, it was close to the end of the day, and Transcend had claimed JK.

[DeasVail]

@Luca: Regarding Fitz, I will dig up our past games together to show you what I mean when I’m not phone posting. Apologies for the delay.

I think Transcend is most likely town. I still believe that the JK claim is unlikely to come from scum.

Regarding the change in attention from Ectomancer to boring, I did lose a bit of my passion for a boring lynch towards the end of Day 1, however I also thought there was a fairly high risk of no lynch with the competing wagons and lack of consensus, and so I wasn’t going to attempt to introduce yet another wagon to the mix by pushing someone else.

Regarding my initial read on Ectomancer, obviously my read has changed? I liked his posting earlier in the game, but not enough to be confident in a townread, hence the weak read. He retracted his town read on Transcend at a very similar time to when I was questioning my Transcend townread, which is obviously not a locked in town tell but I thought it was more likely to be organic considering that I was having similar thoughts. And The post of yours I linked to was clearly not the post I meant.

His post about the jail keeper claims was what first alerted me to something perhaps being wrong with my read, because it was a whole lot of talking about the claims like a 1v1 situation and coming to a conclusion that did not at all follow from the contentless information preceding it. He has since then had very similar rather talky, but insubstantial posts such as 800, 864 and 972.

The post about waiting to hammer me feels particularly insincere. On the surface it would appear that he is wanting to lynch me but with a bit of bravado thrown in, in that he wants the hammer or whatever. But the problem here is that I don’t think im that close to being lynched. Given Day 1 events it’s quite likely that wagons will shift quite a bit over the course of the day, so the whole thing he says about being the hammer are empty words, a complete lack of commitment to scumreading me and I’m pretty sure he knows that.

The above was mostly written earlier in the day on phone but I didn’t get the chance to post it. I’ll post it now and see what’s been written since.

[DeasVail]

UC, your post on me has glaring inaccuracies and things that completely ignore context (as fishy has pointed out), so I don't understand how you could have read my posts properly?

[DeasVail]

Also,

VOTE: Ectomancer

@Ecto - I don't understand why you're holding out to be the hammer for Deas. It's an abrupt change from your D1 MO. Why not just vote, and then try to rally more votes?

Because at that position I can either drive the train forward or apply the brakes. It sort of depends upon how it arrives at that junction. It puts me in a stronger position of control than kick starting a wagon and rallying the troops. That's sufficient for D1, but not really optimal for D2.

What happens if I never get to L-1?

[DeasVail]

Luca, who do you think is more likely scum between me and UC?

[DeasVail]

Hmmmm, Transcend, I've noticed that you're not voting for me. Is there a reason for that? Last I saw, you thought I might be scum so why not support the wagon?

[DeasVail]

I haven't played with havingfitz in a (very) long time, but these are the ones I do remember playing with him.

Fitz-town:

viewtopic.php?t=23295&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=21789&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Fitz-scum:
viewtopic.php?t=21344&f=55&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I haven't re-read through his ISOs from these games in depth, but my impression of him is that as scum he puts more effort into laying out his thought processes so that people can't call him out on a lack of reasoning for what he's doing etc. Obviously any meta from these games would be outdated, but even disregarding that, I'd expect him to not shoot down Luca's case on me so readily. He may still disagree with it as scum, but I think he would at least pretend to show more consideration for it. My read is difficult to explain as it's very much coloured by my perception of havingfitz as a player (even if it's been a while), but I am also not going to lock him in as a certain townread or anything like that. I will update this read as necessary.

[kelbris]

I would just like to say-why WOULDN'T someone CC? It is true that by CC'ing you out yourself as that role, but it makes the person who was CC'D look really scummy by comparison.

tbh, I am starting to see where Transcend is coming from with his belief that the Lil/Viomi/Rem/ProHawk slot is scum, looking back at Lil's posts, he didn't even try to explain why he voted, simply claiming that he "didn't like" Deas's post saying that he is paranoid that his 3 town reads are scum, then asking mutant why effect is alignment indicative to him.

Then we have Viomi, who got really angry with Transcend for commenting on her V/LA, it was obvious that Viomi had not read the thread yet because of her comment on Deas's scum-reading of her(which was due to Lil's posts). BTW @Transcend, by tone were you referring to Viomi's sarcasm in post #368?

Next, we have Rem, who had made a vote on Sheep simply giving a "OMGUS" reason for doing so (assuming OMGUS is the right term for "just because". You then have Rem's comment that Sheep's "contributing with every post" is objectively wrong, basically saying that town should have some fluff posts, which IMO depends on a player's style of play.

I would like to see some more posts from ProHawk before I finalise my read on that slot, but I will admit-it is looking kinda scummy.

[DeasVail]

tbh, I am starting to see where Transcend is coming from with his belief that the Lil/Viomi/Rem/ProHawk slot is scum

What is your read of Transcend?

[kelbris]

I honestly don't know. I did believe that his claims were an act of rolefishing, but after he mentioned his "Gambit" and reading into some of his past games, I agree with the opinion on his wiki page that he "misses hard" sometimes and "hits hard" others, IF this is in fact a gambit, then I would be quite surprised, however I can not deny that it is a distinct possibility, and he has not put nearly as much emotion into his posts as Viomi did (which is/was a potential scumtell back in the day).

Before I make my final decision, I would like to see Transcend's answer to my question to him in the Viomi section of my reads list. I would also like to know-is being night-kill bait a real thing? Because if so, then that puts his vig/JK claim into a different light and would help determine my read on him.

[Ectomancer]

Also,

VOTE: Ectomancer

@Ecto - I don't understand why you're holding out to be the hammer for Deas. It's an abrupt change from your D1 MO. Why not just vote, and then try to rally more votes?

Because at that position I can either drive the train forward or apply the brakes. It sort of depends upon how it arrives at that junction. It puts me in a stronger position of control than kick starting a wagon and rallying the troops. That's sufficient for D1, but not really optimal for D2.

What happens if I never get to L-1?

Then you will neither be led to nor saved from the hangman's noose by me.

Why this change in MO?

In the military, if you have two guys to do a job, one of them does the job and the other one supervises. Why? Because the guy doing the job is down in the trenches with a narrowed focus. The other guy can keep his eye on the big picture and make certain that the job is done safely and properly.

Now I realize that I didn't ask for the privilege and you might express your displeasure at my creation and assumption of what is essentially a power role (a no controversy town hammer). And even assuming that it would be a no controversy hammer is controversial without a confirmed town status (they would take over the hammer role if that were to occur).

But the fact is that I get emotional when first person in the discussion and that hampers my objectivity.

So this is the role I intend to play. I'll ignore any votes on me and in fact won't even acknowledge that they are there. I won't claim and won't give an analysis until I am ready, even if pressured with an L-1. Said L-1 would be scum pressure anyhow as we have game deadlines and I would certainly be obligated to deliver it be then. Until said analysis I'll simply be guiding the conversation onto interesting paths without becoming one of the direct participants.

[Fishythefish]

@Ecto: that's an interesting way to play. With the obvious drawback (for others) of making you hard to read. Is it a style you've used before?

[Transcend]

vla til monday