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[Sergtacos]

Not to mention that it would be fairly obvious bussing if BOTH of my scumbuddies were on my wagon. That, combined with the fact that I am so confident that they are town DESPITE the fact that they are voting me, should be all the evidence you need. I retract my earlier reads list; you are just manufacturing scumtells at this point, not to mention the blatant misrep re: my 580.

VOTE: Sephiroth

I think Seph is town. I think Lalendra is scum.

[Chip Butty]

Not to mention that it would be fairly obvious bussing if BOTH of my scumbuddies were on my wagon. That, combined with the fact that I am so confident that they are town DESPITE the fact that they are voting me, should be all the evidence you need. I retract my earlier reads list; you are just manufacturing scumtells at this point, not to mention the blatant misrep re: my 580.

VOTE: Sephiroth

I think Seph is town. I think Lalendra is scum.

Yeah, that's great. Why?

[implosion]

@skitter: the points you make in 641 are pretty much all good points. I just feel this fundamental hesitance about Mulch. I don't think Mulch-scum necessarily implies Chip-town either; he was pushing Chip for a while but pushing really means just whining at people to vote for him, and now he's moved on to Lalendra with the wind. I also agree with this:

Tbh I'm not super feeling a lalendra lynch right now. She feels more disengaged/out-of-it then scummy to me.

A lot of Lalendra's posting gives me a quick visceral reaction of "this is really scummy" that I strongly suspect is due to playstyle and is not actually very telling and is coloring the way I'm looking at the actual content, or more importantly the motivations, of her posts. Like for instance Seph's criticism here:

Why does me scumreading the three of you necessitate that all three of you are scum together? I'm not going to delude myself into thinking everyone I have a scum read on D1 = the scum team. That would be silly. It just means I independently find each of you to be the scummiest in the game.

Is a totally logically valid thing to say. And I can see why Seph finds it scummy. But I don't think it's really a particularly likely argument for scum to make straightforwardly, or at least not something scum are more likely to make than town, because it is a fairly obvious misrepresentation on the face of it. It feels more like an argument that comes from disengaged town who thinks they saw something really scummy but is actually just misinterpreting things. For that matter I'm not sure why scum-Lalendra goes after Sephiroth here in the first place.

I digress though. I can see why you find Mulch scummy and I can agree with the points that you're making about him so meh. My trepidation comes from him being stereotypically frequently mislynched but you're right about his read progression in particular. It and the way he's been vote hopping are both really convenient plays for scum to make and doesn't make as much sense from pressured town.

I'll mull it over a bit more and probably join the wagon tonight. I don't think this day really needs to be drawn out much more (that said, I was pretty much ready to lynch Wossi a couple days ago but -shrug-). I actually get some decent townvibes from Chip's posting on page 27 as well, in particular the nuance of him pulling back from the meta read on Mulch but not the scumread feels genuine enough. Still want a direct response from him though.

[implosion]

Seph is also right that I need to be a bit more active. I still feel engaged with the game but I can be doing more. I've been really lazy this past week especially over the weekend.

[Chip Butty]

First thing you have to say is WIFOM? Doesn't exactly make me think you're town.

I don't really care if you scumread me tbh. Also, if I were you I woild be sheeping people with better reads than you.

Finally you don't know what wifom is. Sorry bud

I can't read chip because I'm pretty sure he's negative value regardless of his allignment.

If there's a vig, shoot him. If he flips town or scum we benefit

Skitter is your case really based on post 13? Really? Cmon man its page 1. Your kind of obvious town here but no offense that case is shit

VOTE: chip


Gonna place this vote because i think he's useless as town too

Let's Lynch chip

Okay cool, three players to add to my townpool.

Have you noticed that you have bad reads consistently throughout every game

...
Ever wonder why

Name one game you've had good day 1 reads


One game

Anyway tiam sometimes you have to realize that if everyone else is "always" wrong, maybe ur just bad

No offense

Let's lynch



Chip


Butty

It's more than a little frustrating seeing the only reason given for Wossi being town still be invisible meta. Meta's a fine tool but I put 0 weight in meta arguments that can't be explained.

That said, I'm trying to take a step back on Wossi because I am starting to read what he's saying in a biased light. I can see potentially a bit of townpoints for him for the way he's reacting to his wagon as time goes on given his apparent willingness to lash out at every direction on his wagon. It's not good scum play to throw shade at everyone who's voted you (me, lalendra, idany, wicked, maybe others i've missed). It's not good town play either per se (it sort of reeks of OMGUS with the frequency with which he's doing it, which is not really a scumtell but is not good town play) but it's more understandable from town who's just mad at their wagon. I don't think this outweighs the reasons I've seen for him to be scum though.

Love this, this is town,


Trust me on this?
Let's lynch Chip butty. What's the worse that could happen?

A) It's not policy because he's in my PoE but OUT of the people in the PoE, he's the most useless


B) Because day 1 scumreads are almost always wrong, plus yours is wrong casuse he had a perfectly towny day 1

Pretty sure lalendra is scum

@Skitter

When i die

You usually put in a lot more resistance than this, irregardless of alignment . . .

Preflips are bad yada yada yada, but I doubt Mulch and serg are scum together. (scum!mulch decides to enter the game and hardbus his partner?)

I mean

It'd your fault your scumreading me, not mine

I found scum in chip and lalendra, your fault for not having better reads

Ur classic bad at the game awful scum

Plus I scum read Lalendra also so maybe you should try reading...

Your voting town and I'm voting scum


Lmao

You are worse

@implosion: These are some of the posts that had me calling Mulchy hyperaggressive. You disagreed, which was one of the three points in your read of me. Maybe i just noticed it more because a good deal of it is directed at me.

Your third point was that info is not a good reason to lynch. I partially disagree: info is a good supplemental reason to lynch, which is exactly how i presented it.

Your first point was that my mulch read was 1 dimensional, and there is something in that, which i have since addressed. But until you've done your own mulch metadive i can't see how you could vote me because of mine. If you think my meta on mulch is actually misleading, based on your own, then fine.

So yeah, maybe 'godawful' was a bit strong, but i was/am pissed at mulch/taco's playstyle here so I'm probably reacting too strongly to criticism generally.

[implosion]

The reason I don't call those posts as a whole hyperaggressive is because they aren't generally aggressively pushing an agenda. Hyperconfident, definitely. And he's pushing you, but mostly he's just generically whining about people not hopping on board and other people being wrong (i.e. 462, 604, 621). He only really directly reaches out within those posts to me to try to get me to vote you, and he does very little to actually try to convince people to vote you. He does no casework, he does very few direct appeals. He just tells people that you're scum. But yeah I can see what you mean given that it's directed at you, also partially a difference in what we mean by the word hyperaggressive.

Your first point was that my mulch read was 1 dimensional, and there is something in that, which i have since addressed. But until you've done your own mulch metadive i can't see how you could vote me because of mine. If you think my meta on mulch is actually misleading, based on your own, then fine.

The point there, apart from the hyperaggressiveness thing, was just that it was only meta, which as you say you've since rectified. The one-dimensionality of the read at that time didn't really depend on the actual content of the meta dive. I looked at one of the games skitter posted but not massively in depth and don't really intend to do a full meta-dive because I don't think it's especially valuable to.

And there were other reasons I was voting you based on early posting as well, but your recent posts are townish enough to trump that.

Unvote

[Wickedestjr]

Chip Butty, can you respond to my post 498?

I'll post more soon.

[Chip Butty]

Caught up. Phew.

Others looking scummy:

Taco for the miller thing.

I can see why town might fakeclaim but not why they would back off.

Can't quite see why scum would unless cold feet? Need him to say more...

Can you explain the bolded part of this? You think that Serg would just maintain the lie as town?

I doubt lalendra is scum,because my gut says that sergetacos would not be this obvious to break a tie. Probably one scum on lalendra, let me find them real quick

Can you explain this?

(Responding to Wossi next)

I responded to this in my mind, sorry.

One thing i want to mention is that Taco said mn 1946 was his first scum game, so he is inexperienced scum, the kind who might jump into a miller fakeclaim without thinking through all the implications, and who might get cold feet when the claim met a lukewarm to hostile reception.

I'm going to rethink this. My initial post there w as based on me thunking scum might get cold feet, but unless something happened to make them suspect the presence of a rolecop or something, I'm not sure why they would get cold feet.

[Chip Butty]

I guess maybe an unexpected hostile reaction to their claim?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay can you explain the bolded part though?

[Wickedestjr]

Neither of them are my top scum reads at the moment, that would be Mulch, Implosion, and Lalendra. So the fact that I'm scum reading Implosion more than you should answer your last question.

Okay but at the time that you said "I would shoot implosion", you were actually voting for me. What changed to make implosion your top suspect and why haven't you ever voted for him?

@Seph/Mulch - If you get me lynched, when I flip town, who are you going to look at next, and why?

For some reason, the 'when I flip town' feels pretty forced here. Almost as if this question was asked just so she could say 'I'm town'.

[skitter30]

@lalendra:

I do still believe that Mulch/Serg are town though. So is flub. Scum is in chip/dany/tiam/wossi. The rest are null for me at the moment.

Can you explain like all of these? (especially the scumreads?)

@implosion: basically agree with you on lalendra. I don't really see scum motivation in like anything she's posting. She looks to me like she's kinda misreading the thread.

I digress though. I can see why you find Mulch scummy and I can agree with the points that you're making about him so meh. My trepidation comes from him being stereotypically frequently mislynched but you're right about his read progression in particular. It and the way he's been vote hopping are both really convenient plays for scum to make and doesn't make as much sense from pressured town.

Vote hopping is completely NAI for him. It's the lack of read progression that I don't like.

I don't think this day really needs to be drawn out much more

Agreed.

This is basically where I'm at:

{Seph}
{chip, dany}
{two, flubber}
{implosion}
{serg} -null line. Serg isn't null per se so much as I have no clue how to read him and I don't want him anywhere near lylo (cops/vigs, this is a great target)
{wicked} - not entirely sure if this is the right place for him, kinda also want to put him on the same line as implosion, but this feels more right. oddly enough I kinda wanna move implosion down here too, but he feels more right just above the null line.
{Lalendra, wossi} - neither of these are major scumleans atm, they're just less town than everyone else above them (except serg obviously)
{wave}
{Mulch}

Prob not moving off of Mulch for the rest of the phase; the alternative wagons aren't super appealing to me right now.

[Mulch]

UNVOTE: Lalendra

I'm not scumreading anyone atm so I'm not gonna vote

[Wickedestjr]

I'm not scum reading wossi any more. Literally everyone trying to push him can only point to his early game play. That's suspicious.

I disagree. Scum can certainly make mistakes in the early game, so to ignore it just because it happened early on is not reasonable. How can I give him the benefit of the doubt when he literally admitted to 'contradicting himself and making errors of judgment' ? I can't give that a free pass and am trying to figure out why he started off the game that way.

There's a difference between giving him a free pass and tunneling on them and refusing to look at other things going on. If you think that something he did on page two is a scum tell, good for you but I don't see how its possibly a big enough tell to be your primary focus. It just seems lazy given how far into the game we are, especially since its at best a very small tell more realistically (imo) completely null.

If Wossi and I had gone back and forth 10-15 times for the entire thread, then I think you would have a point about tunneling on something too long. But I've only made like three or four posts talking to Wossi about this, so I think it's unfair of you both to try and shut it down just because it was based on something that happened early on. The only reason we were still talking about it 20 pages later is because he disappeared for several days, I disappeared for a few days, and he ignored me at least once.

If I am 'tunneling on Wossi and refusing to look at other things going on', then

please

tell me what I'm refusing to look at that I should be looking at because I think I've only devoted a handful of my 30+ posts to him.

[Wickedestjr]

@skitter:

One of your reasons for voting Mulch was because he seemed to be looking for mis-lynches that don't have much pushback. Did he do this when you were partners with him? Do you think he, as scum, is incapable of going after more difficult targets?

Its not just that. Its that he tried to make several policy lynches instead of actually reading players and trying to find scum tells. He's taking the path of least resistance in search of lynching pretty much whoever. Then when Skitter calls him on that and the see-through nature of his reads, he completely backtracks, lies that PoE is not a form of policy lynching, and basically just adopts whatever Skitter's opinion is on any reads that he disagreed with. Hes literally just trying to find any lynch that people will buy into and lied/backtracked when he got caught.

I don't think any of these reasons are particularly strong:
*IIRC he didn't try making

several

policy lynches. His vote for Chip came along with the 'I think he's useless as town too', but that wasn't his primary reason for voting Chip.
*After rereading, I don't really even see how he's pushing easy targets or taking the path of least resistance. The first two votes that he cast were for people that didn't have any other votes at the time.
*If he was just trying to find any easy vote, then why wouldn't he have just joined the Wossi or Lalendra bandwagons?
*Policy lynching and PoE are two very different things, so that point is a big stretch. Fwiw, I think PoE is a perfectly valid method for scum hunting even though it's hard using that to sway people.
*I don't see the benefit for him, as scum, to just repeatedly change his mind and follow skitter's opinions. I feel like this behavior can be attributed to the low effort that he put into his initial reads. skitter changed his mind by showing posts that he hadn't seen.

I'm not trying to argue that his play here has been helpful by any means; he has been unhelpful. Unfortunately, town are unhelpful sometimes and I don't see why this is indicative of scum-Mulch rather than lazy-town-Mulch. The only things that actually seem interesting to me are 'his town read on Wossi based on an imaginary game that doesn't exist' and his scum pt comment.

I really don't see how ability to go after difficult targets enters into it. Going for easy lynches is the oldest scum tell in the book, why would he want to go for 'more difficult targets' and why would his unwillingness to do so be anything other than a scum tell?

I'm not really sure why whether or not he's pushed mislynches without much pushback in the past makes this any less of a universal scumtell. Like pushing easy lynches (on policy no less) is a hallmark of scumplay, as is changing your reads when someone gives you the smallest amount of pushback. Your last question in the quote above is really, really weird in this context. I can't articulate why exactly atm, but I'm going to continue trying to figure it out because it's really pinging me hard.

I feel like the 'going after easy targets' scum tell applies more to inexperienced scum. If it's the oldest scum tell in the book, then I would think scum would stop doing it. If Mulch had a history of playing this way as scum, then this would interest me much more - that's why I asked the question. However, if this isn't even how he plays as scum, then I'm not really convinced. --> I think that, regardless of his alignment, he is putting very little effort into this game. I just don't see how people are so sure that he is lazy scum vs. lazy town.

[Mulch]

he only things that actually seem interesting to me are 'his town read on Wossi based on an imaginary game that doesn't exist'

cough

didn't want to break site rules

cough

[Wickedestjr]

I've reached the point where I don't see my exchange with Wossi leading to anything helpful anymore. While I haven't seen anything from him that makes me feel good about him, I'll admit that I don't feel as confident in the reasons that I was previously pushing him for; his most recent explanation helped.

Unvote.

At this point, as I said before, I don't really see the case against Mulch. He is probably a slight town read for me. I would support his lynch if it were the only alternative to NL, but I think there are better options like Lalendra or wavemode.

Vote: Lalendra

[Wossi]

Neither of them are my top scum reads at the moment, that would be Mulch, Implosion, and Lalendra. So the fact that I'm scum reading Implosion more than you should answer your last question.

Okay but at the time that you said "I would shoot implosion", you were actually voting for me. What changed to make implosion your top suspect and why haven't you ever voted for him?

First off, Implosion isn't my top read any more, Mulch is.

Secondly, I was alone voting you, and no one was voting Implosion. I didn't see a point of moving my vote. I was still being scum-read by the majority of the town, and I highly doubted a wagon was going to form behind me on either of you. Then Mulch came in with his fake, feigned town read on me and whether my vote was on you or Implosion was no longer relevent.

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.11:

Mulch (5)

- Flubbernugget, Chip Butty, skitter30, Wossi, Sephiroth

Lalendra (3)

- Sergtacos, iDanyboy, Wickedestjr

Wossi (1)

- TwoInAMillion

Sergtacos (1)

- wavemode

Sephiroth (1)

- Lalendra

Not Voting (2)

- implosion, Mulch

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is at 3pm GMT on Sunday 26th November 2017 ((expired on 2017-11-26 15:00:00))

[Sephiroth]

*IIRC he didn't try making

several

policy lynches. His vote for Chip came along with the 'I think he's useless as town too', but that wasn't his primary reason for voting Chip.

It is just false that wasn't his primary reason to vote chip. He explicitly states in 386 that he can't read chip but feels hes a negative value. He also wanted to lynch a lurker immediately after he spontaneously changed off of his first 'read', and later singled out flubber as the person we should lynch for lurking. So let's call that what, 2.5 maybe?

*After rereading, I don't really even see how he's pushing easy targets or taking the path of least resistance. The first two votes that he cast were for people that didn't have any other votes at the time.

I'll give you that point but given how flippantly he was voting and then changing reds initially I don't really see that as particularly vindicating. Not to mention, despite giving a town read to both of the leading wagons, he very quickly reverses his take on Lalendra and votes her. I think it was pretty obvious that the Wossi wagon was losing steam at that point and that Lalendra was the hot new shit. To me he sure seemed easily convinced to vote Lalendra after initially saying he didn't see the scum read.

*If he was just trying to find any easy vote, then why wouldn't he have just joined the Wossi or Lalendra bandwagons?

But he did join the Lalendra wagon. He just made a big show of first reading her town, then being convinced that he was 'giving her a pass too easy' then she was 'lock scum' then all the sudden to not scum reading anyone now that lalendra is losing steam. Definition of going with the flow.

*Policy lynching and PoE are two very different things, so that point is a big stretch. Fwiw, I think PoE is a perfectly valid method for scum hunting even though it's hard using that to sway people.

Okay so I'm sorry but I just flat out agree with you. Maybe this is more of a semantics argument but to me PoE is most definitely a form of policy lynching. I also 1000% disagree that its a valid method (and maybe this is my time away from the site showing). Its basically an excuse to say I don't have reasons to lynch these people but we're gonna lynch them anyways because I have less of a read. To me thats lynching anyone you can't get a read on, which is certainly a policy in my book. But I'm willing to concede this point, I don't think that this changes the fact that he went for two policy lynches right off the bat and then later lied and claimed they were PoE inspired lynches.

*I don't see the benefit for him, as scum, to just repeatedly change his mind and follow skitter's opinions. I feel like this behavior can be attributed to the low effort that he put into his initial reads. skitter changed his mind by showing posts that he hadn't seen.

Its called sheeping the most obvious town and its not a new thing. I don't think you can rightly say someones mind was changed when they literally didnt make up their mind in the first place...they didn't read the game thread. ALL the posts were ones they hadn't seen.

I feel like the 'going after easy targets' scum tell applies more to inexperienced scum. If it's the oldest scum tell in the book, then I would think scum would stop doing it. If Mulch had a history of playing this way as scum, then this would interest me much more - that's why I asked the question. However, if this isn't even how he plays as scum, then I'm not really convinced. --> I think that, regardless of his alignment, he is putting very little effort into this game. I just don't see how people are so sure that he is lazy scum vs. lazy town.

I think that going for easy targets can apply to both inexperienced scum and

lazy

scum. I don't see lazy town coming in here and trying to push some half baked policy lynches and reversing their read on the most popular trendy wagon at the drop of a dime. I

do

see lazy scum dismissing the two big wagons and then slipping onto the easy one once the townie hes sheeping gives him the easy in.

There's also the fact that he lied about any of his lynches being policy by claiming that they were all determined by PoE, but ignoring the fact that he proposed both lynches before he mentioned PoE at all. Lynching lurkers and someone you consider anti town but not scummy are demonstrably not the same as PoE.

If I am 'tunneling on Wossi and refusing to look at other things going on', then

please

tell me what I'm refusing to look at that I should be looking at because I think I've only devoted a handful of my 30+ posts to him.

By my count about 12 (give or take) of your posts either directly address Wossi, defend your read on Wossi, or attack someone elses reasons for disagreeing with your Wossi read. You have posted 36 times and at the time I made that post you had made closer to 30, meaning almost half or your posts were focused around Wossi. I take it back that you were tunneling since you do poke and prod at other people but I stand by my belief that its lazy and somewhat hard to believe that you found nothing better to focus your scumhunting on than some RVS weirdness.

And for someone who took 28 pages to let go of that waffling you suddenly have very high standards for reading someone scum, wrt not seeing the Mulch case.


For someone who essentially tunneled Wossi for 26 pages based on a bit of waffling in the RVS stage (which you now

[Sephiroth]

*After rereading, I don't really even see how he's pushing easy targets or taking the path of least resistance. The first two votes that he cast were for people that didn't have any other votes at the time.

I'll give you that point but given how flippantly he was voting and then changing reds initially I don't really see that as particularly vindicating. Not to mention, despite giving a town read to both of the leading wagons, he very quickly reverses his take on Lalendra and votes her. I think it was pretty obvious that the Wossi wagon was losing steam at that point and that Lalendra was the hot new shit. To me he sure seemed easily convinced to vote Lalendra after initially saying he didn't see the scum read.

To elaborate on this it seems like he was testing the waters to find the easiest way to flow.

Apologies for the bit of cruft at the end of my previous post. I'm bad at editing my posts down. But to be fair 26 is the accurate number, not 28.

[Sephiroth]

Oh lol I also said I flat out agree with you about PoE being policy...I of course meant flat out *disagree with you.

[implosion]

I disagree that PoE is a form of policy lynching. I often hunt by PoE because I often get confident townreads more easily than confident scumreads. I'd say modern site meta has a fair amount of what I'd call soft PoE, which basically amounts to PoEing the game down to maybe 2ish more players than there are scum and then focusing down on those players but generally being okay with any of them dying.

That said the point that's swaying me on Mulch isn't the PoE stuff, it's that his read progression is scummy. I think Mulch is scum who has decided that he can't work his way out of a lynch today, and has reduced activity/stopped giving confident reads as a result. I don't see how else 687 makes sense, and it makes his potential read progression as town make even less sense. He'd have had to go from being so confident in his reads so as to be calling everyone else and their reads terrible, to now not feeling confident enough to vote for anyone, despite the wagon on him building and him having a wealth of information to work from if he's town here.

VOTE: Mulch

(L-1)

[Chip Butty]

Okay can you explain the bolded part though?

I think if town has fakeclaimed miller and there has been no cc, the protown thing to do would be to stand firm and hope there is a cop variant who can clear you if necessary. You return green to cops so that's a fair chance. If you can sell it, you become a slot town doesn't worry about, and if you can't you can hope for a clearing check. But backtracking just creates confusion in town minds and detracts from the scum hunt. You might even draw the NK at some point if you are widely believed, which is good as long as you are vt.

So what Taco has done is scummy at worst and antitown at best.

[Mulch]

Town don't make up reads