Open 702: Vanilla Nightless Game Over

[CultOfAthena]

Hello, all.

VOTE: Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez
I'm not going to enjoy typing that name out, best to lynch it soon and be done with it.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm not a fan of the cy townreads at all. It doesn't take a townie to point out logical fallacies. Trying to turn a game of mafia into debate club is actually a scumread for me - scum's knowledge of the game won't affect their posting at all if all they're doing is arguing logic or theory.

Impede, zaraki, LG, mind explaining what makes cy town in your eyes?

[CultOfAthena]

I'm not a fan of the cy townreads at all. It doesn't take a townie to point out logical fallacies. Trying to turn a game of mafia into debate club is actually a scumread for me - scum's knowledge of the game won't affect their posting at all if all they're doing is arguing logic or theory.

Impede, zaraki, LG, mind explaining what makes cy town in your eyes?

Okay so if this isn't debate club then what is this? The entire point of the game is to figure out who's lying. I can't pull a Phoenix Wright atm so I'm doing the next best thing.

You're making the mistake of assuming that people who are incorrect are lying, and that those people are also scum. Townies can commit logical fallacies just as easily as scum can.

I'm not a fan of the cy townreads at all. It doesn't take a townie to point out logical fallacies. Trying to turn a game of mafia into debate club is actually a scumread for me - scum's knowledge of the game won't affect their posting at all if all they're doing is arguing logic or theory.

Impede, zaraki, LG, mind explaining what makes cy town in your eyes?

Because the reasoning in cy's response is only true if he is Town. Scum!cy obviously knows whether or not scum would be on the wagon and could easily prove it if he really wanted to.

What? Elaborate on this - cy's 39 seems entirely separated from his alignment.

[CultOfAthena]

Athena, you've been questioning the reads of others but do you have any yourself?

Suspicion on those eager to write cy off as town - seems like alignment-informed players eager to insert themselves into a townblock. Early scumread on mozamis for this little bit of LAMIST, among other reasons:

if everyone who is town could be really town, that would be great since no Nk's means we can make it hard for scum.
yes, i've read the wiki lol

VOTE: Mozamis

[CultOfAthena]

his 38, claiming to be looking for reactions is scum garbage

What do you think is the truth of the scenario? What was comm's actual intent or motivation?

[CultOfAthena]

@cy
Why did you vote Comm in 35?

[CultOfAthena]

Quite a lot of activity this game. Expect responses from me later today.

[CultOfAthena]

TT | Ts
--------
Ts | ss
-snip-

This is a fallacious or at best meaningless application of statistics, as bad as saying "he can't be scum, he rolled scum the last two games!". I'm not sure whether you belive it yourself or not but I'm inclined to think so. I'm not entirely sure what that says about your alignment, if anything at all.

he's gamesolving, argumentative, transparent and not doging the issue.
comm is town.

That's his personality you're seeing, not necessarily his alignment. Just because people were scumreading Comm for bad reasons doesn't mean townreading him for similarly bad reasons is a good idea either.

zaraki is prob town as well, very gamesolvy and arguing the toss and being emotional

Are you calling 90 gamesolving?

@cy
Why did you vote Comm in 35?

nevr mind the questions, what are your reads, opinions, analysis?

LAMIST.

MOD NOTES

UC Voyager replaces lucca261. Please thank and welcome UC Voyager!.

*sigh*

[CultOfAthena]

Because the reasoning in cy's response is only true if he is Town. Scum!cy obviously knows whether or not scum would be on the wagon and could easily prove it if he really wanted to.

What? Elaborate on this - cy's 39 seems entirely separated from his alignment.

The only way that cy cannot prove this to be true is if he is Town. Scum can easily prove this, they just wouldn't want to. The phrasing suggests that cy did not consider this.

No scum player with two brain cells to smash together would consider it either - it's such a far fetched idea that I don't think it's worth basing your read around.

Post #90 from Zaraki is a hot mess. There's a lot that's weird here... like he says he townread cy between 39 and 50 when he posted that read on #43. Gives cy credit both for my reasoning (dumb tell), but also having a well-composed post which... isn't really something that is hard to fake. Big probability argument that doesn't prove anything. This all looks like bs to me, and this seems like a really excessive explanation to his initial read in #43. I don't believe for a second this was his reasoning at the time he posted his townread of cy. Leaning scum on him, and if Zaraki is scum, would not be surprised if one of cy or Comm turns up scum as well.

I like this.

Sesq looking good. Lucky looking scummy, Luca too. (Did we seriously have a Lucca, Luca and Lucky? Can we lynch of these characters on general principle?)

Interested to hear the reasoning on your Luca read - it's opposite to the seeming consensus.

[CultOfAthena]

@laserguy lets not policy lynch, plus lucca replaced out, so there is just a Luca and Lucky

Where did you get the idea of a policy lynch from Laser's 167?

giving lucky a town pass for sheer effort.
he copuld be very good scum, but hes not a day 1 lynch

...what? Thanks for town reading me, but this is absolutely the wrong reason to.

I'm pretty sure I like this - it's not often that I see scum questioning townreads on them.

I like the bit about scum trying to get on a townblock. The only problem with it is that there are two "blocks" forming in this game right now that are buddying each other pretty heavily, and the way I see it, you could have scum in either or both.

That's true. The important part to look at is how each person joined (or attempted to join) the townblock - through interactions or through sheeping the general consensus.

Nyegh. After looking at 90, it is a hot mess. I think I fucked up along the lines. (won't lie, I'm not the greatest with percentages so I had an easier time with cy's 4 posts). I was honestly trying to go for an objective analysis, but I guess I fell into the confirmation bias anyways.

Although I feel I townread too early, as he hardly posts. Then again, still a town lean.

I feel Sesq and Luka are def town. As for the other reads? I haven't got my thoughts organized yet. Maybe Impede too? He seems to be getting townier and townier.

Don't try to play mafia like a game of sudoku. I know it feels better to base things off of objectivity but this is a subjective game - put your reads out there, focus on your personal opinions and try to analyze the opinions of others.

I find it very strange how you kept rather silent until this case formed on you, and you started to post again. It makes little to no since.

Does it really not make sense? Think about it.

[CultOfAthena]

Oh hell RVS is over. Need to remove this.
UNVOTE:

It always seems bad to me when people do this, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell or not.

@Laser:

why do I look scummy?

In this type of game, I feel it is very likely there is going to be a lot of SvS infighting early on. You and Lucky's interaction has this vibe to me... you start with a discussion about Comm's intentions, but very quickly Comm is sidelined out of the discussion without any really input from him and you proceed to tunnel each other for the next six pages. The fact that Comm actually commented on your discussion at #100 and neither of you either asked him a question or wanted him to weigh in seems to suggest that neither of you are really interested in Comm at all. This is particularly unsettling since as of #172 don't actually think Lucky is scum, in which case it's not clear to me why you've spent so much energy on this. I'm leaning SvS on this whole interaction.

Good analysis, with the caveat that I think at some point Luca and Lucky's interaction stopped being about Comm and start being about theory or the validity of reads.

MOD NOTES

UC Voyager replaces lucca261. Please thank and welcome UC Voyager!.

*sigh*

?

Don't worry about it.

[CultOfAthena]

wow athena, that's a lot of nothing you've said.

That's certainly one way to interpret it. An incorrect interpretation, mind you, but an interpretation nonetheless.

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

But is this from a lack of real content in his posts or a lack of activity? I think there's a distinction you're missing there.

I feel a little redundant, but I'm going to retract my townlean on Cy.

At the time, he seemed pretty townish but now?

Looking back, he kinda looks like scum who wanted a quick townread, posted a bit to seem townish, and then vanished off the face of the earth to be comfortably lurking.

Let me put it this way: in 90 the math said it was 75%. I failed to mention that this is due to the sparseness of his posts. Since there was less posted, there was less to judge him off. This of course, is convenient to seem townish, but a real towny would probably follow up and continue to try to gamesolve. (none of which he really does, fallacies are fallacies) It is far more convenient for scum to post little, and seem townish as possible, than post a lot and have more revealing information on their thoughts/play.

Slightly starting to scumlean Cy, but mostly null.

Was cy really scum who wanted a quick townread or was he just someone who people (probably scum)

were

quick to point to as town? Nothing I've seen from cy has seemed like he's deliberately seraching to be townread. You're also basing your read here off of a lack of gamesolving which itself is a function of activity - unless you're going to make the argument that cy's activity level has been alignment indicative then I don't think this point holds up.


I've seen some questioning of townreads on me which implies that either the people asking those questions disagree or are having trouble forming their own reads on me. @Those people, what're your takes on me?


By the way, none of the questions I've asked have been rhetorical, @UCV mainly.

[CultOfAthena]

Also, poliy lynching for not playing to your ideal of good town play is no good. Scum need lynching, not townies.

Where are you getting this idea from? What is this in response to?

Also, poliy lynching for not playing to your ideal of good town play is no good. Scum need lynching, not townies.

I honestly agree. Policy Lynching will be used to the advantage of scum. we should not let scum get the advantage

Guys, we should lynch the mafia and not the townies, because that will benefit town. Am I townread yet?

[CultOfAthena]

i don't even know where the fuck you are going with this. i am so confused by it lol.

I was calling 266 LAMIST.

@CultOfAthena

Well, like I stated before, he presented a nice summed up paragraph on one of the 4. He makes a sorta townish play then vanishes. I get that life is busy, but most people can still get in a post or two. Besides, there is not much of a point in lurking unless A) You don't really have anything to contribute, which doesn't make sense considering the last time he posted was around 100 (to my memory) and it was short. B) This is vanilla and nightless. You don't need to lurk to try to avoid nightkill and get the investigative results safely. There is no power role that has to be wary and nervous about lynching/nk and thus lurks.

There was about an equal amount of time between his initial posts to his recent posts compared to my initial posts and my recent posts. Are you applying the same argument to me? Unless he's been posting elsewhere on site and deliberately ignoring this game then any argument about activity is non-alignment indicative.

It seems to me like you're describing why lurking is pointless but you're still calling him scum for it - could you elaborate?

[CultOfAthena]

wow athena, that's a lot of nothing you've said.

That's certainly one way to interpret it. An incorrect interpretation, mind you, but an interpretation nonetheless.

jesus fucking christ. nevermind we're lynching athena today.

VOTE: cultofathena

Why?

[CultOfAthena]

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

But is this from a lack of real content in his posts or a lack of activity? I think there's a distinction you're missing there.

What are you talking about? He had literally done nothing in the time between being townread early on until I called him out on not doing anything in 252.

Exactly. You seem to be suggesting that he's just coasting on the early town credit, but the fact that he's done "nothing" has been a product of his post count, not the content of his posts. Activity is NAI - you're suggesting a connection that doesn't actually mean anything.

[CultOfAthena]

By the way, here's a fresh take that's sure to get some debate started - there really isn't all that great of a reason for Luca to be as widely townread as he is.

[CultOfAthena]

He hasn't actually done anything in the time being. After those few posts, until Luca called him out, he did nothing. Why? Surely there was enough content for at least some posts.

Is Zulfy scum? I haven't seen anything from him - he's got the entire game to look at and he still can't comment on anything?

[CultOfAthena]

@Athena:

I didn't say it was necessarily NAI - it was just a point of reference, but he had obviously been lurking as he posted almost immediately afterwards.

You didn't explicitly say anything but I think the obvious implication there is that it's a point of suspicion. I can't conclusively say anything on the second point, but you disregard the frequency of coincidence.

[CultOfAthena]

@Athena:

I didn't say it was necessarily NAI - it was just a point of reference, but he had obviously been lurking as he posted almost immediately afterwards.

You didn't explicitly say anything but I think the obvious implication there is that it's a point of suspicion. I can't conclusively say anything on the second point, but you disregard the frequency of coincidence.

Addendum to this - I don't think there's a point in continuing this particular discussion further if you're not making that point as something that's alignment relevant. Consider this my own "point of reference", then.

[CultOfAthena]

As I said, I have no further issue with what you said.

[CultOfAthena]

Luca, what's your take on sesq, mozamis and zaraki?

Say, who did Zulfy replace?

Archwing.

[CultOfAthena]

Right, so you've taken one part of one point and then used it to dismiss my entire case?

What? He quite clearly commented on the rest of what you were talking about as to why he doesn't want to lynch UCV - you even quoted it right there and responded to it.

The main part of the point you're talking about is that his reads were contrived - how convenient is it to have one townread, one null read and one scum read laid out like that? It isn't natural. The fact there was no reasoning for any of it only compounds the matter as it looks like he's just trying to fabricate something to look busy.

I think you overestimate the disorganization of randomness. There's a lot more I want to talk about regarding this, but none of it is particularly game-relevant. For now I think i'm agreeing with cy.

I feel there is enough to warrant a UCV lynch even if you entirely exclude meta. Just note his reaction to being voted - he isn't angry because I'm tunneling him, as I've been doing it for a while this game without him getting angry. He's annoyed that it's working and that I will successfully get him lynched again.

Why does that reaction always come from scum?

[CultOfAthena]

i will never join a game with Luca again. if i would not had read the wrong playerlist, i never would have joined this game.

So explain it again to me what's got you so frustrated this game?

[CultOfAthena]

2. Fluff.

Not really, but it's such minutae that it's not worth it to talk about.

3. Being friendly with me up until others start voting on him and then throwing his toys out of the pram? I can see more scum motivation than town there.

You want to say something relevant, Athena?

I suppose so - I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone lynched so often day one, and I'm wondering when some element of frustration would come into that.

Working on it.

[CultOfAthena]

c'mon zulfer and cult, time to bus to earn that town cred!

Yes, and I'm sure if I'm off the wagon and UCV flips town it'll be scum avoiding a mislynch for town cred, right?

The propsect of joining the UCV wagon with the people on it currently gives me pause. I think I'm going to forego my typical multi-responses and just leave it at this for today. I'd like to see how this unfolds and to hear a bit more from UCV as well as some other inactive slots.

[CultOfAthena]

Actually, let's talk about that - where does your scumread on me come from?

[CultOfAthena]

no, lets focus on uv today. nice try, though.
your hopeless equivocation is noted.

Wow, that's an original one - no sarcasm. I don't think I've ever seen someone get out of explaining their reads by saying we should focus on another wagon.

Do you truly believe the opportunity cost of our discussion to be so high that it would derail UCV's lynch? "Let's focus on people that aren't me" is a weak cop-out.

It's generally scummy to not be on a wagon unless you have demonstrated a trajectory towards a townread of that person.

Are you saying that as your own opinion or as an opinion of others that you've noticed?

I disagree, but that's mostly theory talk so I don't think it's a good use of my time to talk about it that much.

This game is A bit unique however... no NK means that scum necessarily have to wagon effectively, so I think Moz's observation that this wagon is slow is most definitely a good sign. Although I'd expect a crap ton of bussing D1 and possibly D2 (at least until we lynch scum), so there's a chance multiple scum are on this wagon already to get their bus pass (just made up that term... hope it catches on).

This is how I'm seeing it as well.

[CultOfAthena]

@CoA: you should hop on. L-1 is quite a powerful tool for town. Not like you're signing the death certificate just yet.

I'm fine, for now. See 419.

[CultOfAthena]

@UCV, 404

[CultOfAthena]

Well played. Luca is all but confirmed town to me now.

[CultOfAthena]

Basically what I'm doing here is creating a lynch pool for us to consider today. Next one up is

Athena

.

I've disliked Athena's posts throughout to be honest - it feels as though she is always looking at the game at an abstract level without really getting involved or posting anything of relevance.

What makes you read this as an alignment tell rather than just a personality trait or posting style? Also, in my defense, nobody ever engaged me at the same level that they engaged others - just look at my attempt to start a conversation get shut down.

Spoiler:

Actually, let's talk about that - where does your scumread on me come from?

no, lets focus on uv today. nice try, though.
your hopeless equivocation is noted.

Furthermore, she pretty much avoided directly tackling the UCV issue and instead appeared to discreetly take the conversation in different directions. Her posts regarding cytheflyguy have also been interesting and should be looked into more if one of these two were to flip red.

By the way, here's a fresh take that's sure to get some debate started - there really isn't all that great of a reason for Luca to be as widely townread as he is.

First we have this post which comes when I'm pressing for more votes on UCV. It came out of the blue, and I'm wondering if the motivation behind it was to discredit my opinion on UCV. 1

In every post she makes after my vote on UCV she ignores the issue and tries to guide the conversation elsewhere, such as in 224, 227, 229, 230, 269 etc etc. 2

In 295, when I was clearly committed to lynching UCV she asks me what I think of Sesq, Moz and Zaraki - again it feels like she's trying to deflect my attention away from UCV, who she still hasn't mentioned at this point. 3

400 - Finally she says something about UCV (who is L-2 at this point) and it's a soft-defence of him.

419 - Explains that the people on the UCV wagon gives her pause. She has still offered no actual opinion on UCV herself by this point and this excuse feels like a cop-out. She then continues to talk about things unrelated to UCV.

472 - Congratulates me and says I'm conf Town now to her, possibly an early attempt to get in my good books ahead of D2.

1 If I were scumbuddies with UCV I would have hopped on his wagon in a heartbeat. Defending him would be an exercise in futility in addition to drawing town focus to myself. Especially in a nightless setup, trying to get all the town credit possible is essential - hence why I'm so suspicious of the others on the wagon, among other reasons. What do you think my motivations for defending UCV would be as scum? It's incredibly doubtful that he makes it anywhere past day 3 anyways - if we're scumbuddies all I do is incriminate myself.

2 Responding to the rest of the game can hardly be called "guiding the conversation elsewhere" - the idea that one conversation needs to be so dominating seems counterproductive to me.

3 I was asking for your opinion. Do you truly believe that nearly every post I made last day phase was an attempt at preventing UC Voyager's lynch? I can understand if you scumread me, but don't start constructing narratives.

[CultOfAthena]

I didn't actually expect Luca to be so right.

and me

maybe cyfly. but impede, laser and cult need to be looked at.

"Guys, wait - don't forget about

my

town cred!"

cyfly is town.
mayeb impede is town, his posts today do look town.
i think cult nad laser are prob scum. they were SO reluctant to lynch UV, but didnt have any reasons, didnt really push anyone else.

You're not thinking this through, and if you are then it's on the most basic of levels. This is a nightless setup - scum have no ability to kill off the voices they do not want to be heard. Convincingly acting townie is far and away the most important thing for scum to do. With that in mind, certainly if I had foreknowledge of UCV's alignment I would set myself up for failure by playing in the manner in which I did. The fact that it doesn't even seem like you're considering the possibility of bussing gives me confidence in the idea that scum were definitely hard bussing UCV.

[CultOfAthena]

Sesq, you never answered my question from way back - why'd you vote me in 274 and why am I still scum?

VOTE: mozamis

[CultOfAthena]

For emphasis:

I want it to be known that any votes/points made against players not in the lynch pool will be ignored.

Sure, you can ignore them yourself if you want. You and anyone else should realize that all you're doing is giving scum a perfect excuse to ignore cases on them or points against them.

Sesq, you never answered my question from way back - why'd you vote me in 274 and why am I still scum?

VOTE: mozamis

i was going to make a post saying "read the game" but then i closed the tab and couldnt be fucked to retype it.

read the game. its for reasons many others have laid out.

No, I'm not asking those people - I'm asking

you

. Even more, nothing regarding UCV had happened when you made 274. What was your original reason for voting me?

[CultOfAthena]

Funny, that's the exact same response mozamis gave me. Is our collective attention span really such a limited resource that even considering cases on other players would be a derailment?

I wouldn't read someone confusing what day phase it is as a townslip anyways, so the idea that he intended it as one seems unlikely to me.

[CultOfAthena]

What's your reponse to 524 and 525?

[CultOfAthena]

It's possibly a play style, although choosing not to posts things of relevance would be a rather odd one.

The idea that I don't post anything of relevance is unsubstantiated. I'm sharing my opinions, asking questions and pointing out contradictions just the same as others. Anyone could get an good idea of where I'm at with my reads just by reading through my ISO. Personally, I think people probably say this because I condense my comments into a single response rather than making multiple posts. That or they're all scum trying to discredit me, but the first option sounds less paranoid.

This is all WIFOM - the evidence is there in black and white but obviously you can twist it to suit any angle you want.

I think you wouldn't

'jump on his wagon in a heartbeat'

for two reasons - a) losing a scummate on D1 is a huge blow in the setup and b) your bussing might be in vain anyway as people would assume scum would bus, which is what you are doing now.

I don't get why it took you so long to even mention UCV, and the fact that you made a soft-defence at the same time looks bad on you. Yes you can talk about other stuff, but you literally were completely avoiding the entire UCV issue for most of D1, which was the main talking point of the game.

I thought you might say this - the idea that I deliberately went against the optimal play just to make this point is a ridiculous one. Obviously it wasn't getting me townread day one and obviously it hasn't gotten me townread today. In no world does my play yesterday place me in a better position today than bussing would - if I had foreknowledge of UCV's alignment I never would have even considered it.

Why is losing a scummate D1 a huge blow? Especially when it's UCV, bussing a scummate D1 likely puts scum in a better position than a mislynch would.

My bussing might be in vain? I want you to consider two points on this one. The first is that even if people don't townread my bussing, it still places me in a better position than my play has placed me today. The second is that there is only one person in your lynch pool today who was on the UCV wagon.

[CultOfAthena]

Comm seems oblivious to everything that's happened in this game - is this not the impression you got from his post?

He's seemingly unaware of UCV's lynch, as he thinks we're still in the first lynch-phase.

Sure - what do you make of it?

And as I said, our lynch pool is 5, which is big enough to be getting on with. I found scum on D1, therefore I'm calling the shots on D2 and this is how I want to do it.

Smart people can make bad decisions. Someone who got one scum can be completely off on their reads. Even someone who looks like confirmed town could still be scum. The point I'm trying to make is that what you're doing is completely counterproductive, in the true sense of the word involving productivity. If people see those five people as the scummiest then discussion will naturally center around them. Attempting to stifle any discussion outside of that group doesn't "focus" things, it causes pointless strife and acts as a lazy excuse for avoiding discussion. In fact, attempting to control the discussion is probably one of the most anti-town actions I can think of in this setup - scum can't kill off the voices they don't want to be heard, but if they can attempt to shut down anything they're saying before it's even said then the disadvantage is null.

I have points I think are valid regarding people outside of your group - you're not going to stop me from making them. If you're going to argue against that or completely ignore them just on principle, consider what you're really accomplishing by doing so.

[CultOfAthena]

. With that in mind, certainly if I had foreknowledge of UCV's alignment I would set myself up for failure by playing in the manner in which I did. The fact that it doesn't even seem like you're considering the possibility of bussing gives me confidence in the idea that scum were definitely hard bussing UCV.

first sentence is a tricksy, WIFOm defence. Obviously, you may be scum and you simply didnt want to bus him, and then hop eyou can wifom it like you are doing.
Second sentence is clearly untrue, as i said several times that i thought that impede was bussing. (altho i wa sprobably worng about that).

I've already responded to the WIFOM idea in 548.

thats my answer.

don't like it? too bad.

Why? I mean, why be so deliberately obtuse when it comes to talking about your motivations?

Also, do you have any completed scumgames you could link me to?

also athena, i get the very distinct impression you aren't really thinking about things too hard. you have a very traditionalist mindset towards what can and should be done by town and what constitutes as town play without giving much weight to the specific situation at hand. this will continue to be a problem for the rest of the game.

Mind pointing to something in specific that gives you that impression? As it stands, my only response is "you're wrong".

[CultOfAthena]

VOTE: zulfy

Normally I would say "we should have done this day 1" but since we caught scum, I'll let you guys off!
but really, this guy has doen LITERALLY no scum hunting all game, less than when town lurk.
i've seen scum lurk like this many times.

obv, there is a chance of him being town and lurking, but if so, we have 1 mislynch available, yeah??

but, as i say this is mainly a genuine "this guy is scum" lynch

, with a twenty per cent PL Lurker lynch as well.

Cult is still my other top pick for scum.
Who the last scum is I'm less clear now.

What makes you think Zulfy is scum? That's a pretty detailed read for someone with two posts, total - seven, if you count his predecessor.

We're going to have to deal with the slot sooner or later. Even if it does turn out to be a Town slot, it's not like they're doing anything to help out. There isn't really any harm in doing this.

VOTE: Zulfy

What's the need to deal with him today as opposed to in the future? Presumably if the lurking is actually due to real life reasons and not an in-game strategy, that should be cleared up sometime later. This seems uncharacteristically concise and nonanalytical, compared to my playerimage of you.

This question goes out to anyone else voting Zulfy, as well.

I don't have time to make a proper post right now, but I'm getting irritated at people questioning my lynch pool so this is the last I'll say on the matter.

5 is a big enough lynch pool - there is no point saying we should consider everyone when the evidence for those 5 is stronger than others. There is no chance of anyone outside of that lynch pool being lynched on D2, and given its half the length of a normal day I don't want time wasted unnecessarily.

Furthermore the lynch pool traps scum - I am all but confirmed town and I've chosen players who all have evidence making them look suspect, apart from Zulfy who simply hasn't posted. If there is even 1 scum in the pool then they will be feeling a little nervous, but my suspicion is there's at least two there, possibly even three, in which case I'm sure scum would try and kill all talk of this lynch pool.

This isn't to say people outside of the lynch pool shall never be considered again - they will be, based on further evidence for future days, but not today.

Now stop complaining and get on with it.

I non-sarcastically, completely sincerely apologize if what I'm doing causes you any emotional damage - I'm going to be completely ignoring your restriction, except perhaps to use it to get a better read on you.

[CultOfAthena]

Cult is still my other top pick for scum.
Who the last scum is I'm less clear now.

So do the reasons that you think I'm scum go beyond my relation to the UC Voyager lynch? This is why I said that it seems like you're not considering the possibility of bussing. Take a look at your readslist in 508 and see how it compares to the end of day votecount. I think it's incredibly likely that scum bussed UCV hard for the town cred and are now pushing the idea that people off the wagon are scum.

Also, here's a nice little bit of irony that I found looking back through the game:

VOTE: Zulfy
im leaving this here until he makes a post or two.

so why are you voit ng somone who has barel yposted and who has no chance of getting lynched?

doesnt really look like scumhunting tbh

[CultOfAthena]

1. because i dont like repeating shit and you're annoying me. read everyone else's reasons and the ones ive provided. no scumgames that would be relevant, or towngames. its been a while since ive had my head really in the game.

2. all your complaints with luca's play

Are you saying you're just sheeping everyone else's reasons? Also, again - nothing had happened in relation to the UCV lynch when you initially voted me. You can't point to everyone else's reasons for that one.

I assume you're talking about the "lynchpool". There is

nothing

beneficial for town in restricting more than half of the alive players from being questioned. That alone should be reason enough, but I've talked more in-depth about this previously.


I resent the idea that holding this opinion means that I'm not thinking things through.

[CultOfAthena]

Excuse me? If you ask me, the very notion of arguing the scum pool to me implies you're thinking this through a lot. Who says you're not thinking through?

also athena,

i get the very distinct impression you aren't really thinking about things too hard.

you have a very traditionalist mindset towards what can and should be done by town and what constitutes as town play without giving much weight to the specific situation at hand. this will continue to be a problem for the rest of the game.

Unfortunate.

This is me.

[CultOfAthena]

No, I didn't get that impression from what you said.

[CultOfAthena]

hey what manner was that?

Not voting him.

Did you elaborate this point?

No, nobody seemed to take notice of it.

Regarding those last two replies:
While the punett square thing was odd that's not the sole contribution of Zaraki, don't know why you'd generalize like that.

At the time it was the most prevalent part of his ISO and the only thing I would think could be called gamesolving.

And that LAMIST accusation seems hollow. Are you sure you just don't have a problem with Mozamis's attitude?

I had quite obviously already stated reads, opinions and analyses at that point. Asking for them like that seemed like an attempt to look busy moreso than an actual request for information.

[CultOfAthena]

Cults last few posts once again post very littel in content really, not any reads, just arguing and point scoring.

This is totally wrong and I'm no longer going to sit quiet while I get accused of this. The last

fifteen

or so posts have all been completely relevant game content - me asking Luca about his read on me, talking about the likelihood of bussing UCV, talking about Luca's "embargo", so on and so on. You're just attempting to discredit me - anyone actually reading my posts can clearly see that they're not devoid of content. People should take note of this - scum can't kill off the voices they don't want to hear but if they can silence them or discredit them then the effect is the same.

So do the reasons that you think I'm scum go beyond my relation to the UC Voyager lynch?

THIS IS A SCUM POST.
Scum are always desperate to know WHY people are voting for them, so they can "refute" the point. Town often dont really care why people are vitng for them, or will just tell the other person to STFU etc

Don't project your own playstyle onto me, and don't be so ignorant as to believe that townies could never play in the manner in which I do. The reason I ask people why they're scumreading me is to examine their

motivations

, the most reliable indicator of alignment that I've found outside of a cop investigation. It also has the effect of checking their consistency. Town will change their reads because their mind has been changed by something, scum will change their reads as convenient to them.

i also several times have mentioned the fact that i thought Impede may have busssed.

Yes, there's one person you think may have bussed - the rest of your readslist matches up so closely with the UCV wagon such that that point doesn't really mean anything. If you really are town here, are you

seriously

not more suspicious of the people on the wagon than off? That's the first rule of vote count analysis: when scum is lynched day one, look on the wagon. Especially in a nightless setup where scum need all the town cred they can get and especially when that scum lynched is UC Voyager, the easiest lynch there is and the slot who's probably the least likely to make endgame, I'm going to think that scum bussed hard. I honestly wouldn't be surprised this game if all three remaining scum were on the wagon.

[CultOfAthena]

This goes well with my philosophy that town should make scum hunting their priority, not avoiding their own lynch.

I am scum hunting. Any townie ought to look through the game and see this for themselves rather than just accepting what other people say about my play.

Also, here's a nice little bit of irony that I found looking back through the game:

classic "legalistic, rhetoric" scum
no town motivation for this post, just leaves it hanging "oh, look how Moz contradicted himself". Shade throwing.
this guy is scum.

VOTE: cultofathena

No town motivation? I'm pointing out an inconsistency - like I've said, town act differently because their reads may have changed. Scum act differently because it's convenient to them. You can talk about the validity of the point that I made, but to imply that there's no town motivation is either ignorant or disingenuous. Either way, it's false.

not avoiding their own lynch.

exactly, thats what i meant, he is trying to survive, not find scum, hence he wants to know why i scum read him.

Mmm. Then your argument makes sense. Hunting is important. It sort of sets up a, I'm town and let's find scum objectivity to the rest of us. If he's not scumhunting then he likely knows who scum is.

Don't take other people at their word about what my play is like - look at it for yourself and determine whether or not they're telling the truth. That goes for any factual comment someone makes about anyone else.

[CultOfAthena]

After a little bit of thought, I've decided to take Comm and Zulfy out of today's lynch pool. The reason for Comm I will explain at a later time. Zulfy is starting to contribute a bit and his wagon is shit. Both need to bring a lot more to the table

or they're going back on the list on D3

, however.

So you'll be attempting to control the lynch for the rest of the game?

[CultOfAthena]

Yes.

Why did you ignore my point about your alt-slip?

It wasn't so much a point as a statement. You didn't really say anything that I feel the need to respond to.

I have no desire to talk about my other account - there's a reason I'm playing on an alt.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm wondering why you avoided talking about UCV pretty much the entire day, given the meta arguments against him and your particular experience with his meta.

You keep painting how much I talked about UCV as some kind of intentional action that I took. I didn't say a lot about UCV yesterday because I didn't have a lot to say. I also didn't feel like my experience placed me in any sort of unique position to say something. Even if it did, I still doubt I would have said something, given my account status.

[CultOfAthena]

Why didn't you have a lot to say, though? UCV was the player providing the most AI information and was the main topic of discussion, so why weren't you more curious about him?

I'm not exactly sure what you expect me to say in response here. I didn't find much worth commenting on when I was reading the game. Certainly there was a lot of discussion between you two but I rarely found the need to insert myself into that discussion. The times when I did, I did.

And given how much you meta-defended him in the other game, I find it baffling that you would have so little interest in him this game, given the arguments I was using against him.

If you're Town then please help me understand this.

I learn from my mistakes. Consider this a request to end this particular conversation.

I have no desire to talk about my other account - there's a reason I'm playing on an alt.

I also want to know your opinion on LaserGuy.

I had a townlean on him but I didn't really like the Zulfy vote.

[CultOfAthena]

Out of those the first would be cy and the last would be Zaraki. That's simply a hierarchy given those options, however, and presents a false image of my true reads. I doubt I would be willing to vote any of those three today.

[CultOfAthena]

still think comm is town - particularly arguing the toss with Lucca like that - there is very little scum motivation for arguing with the most widely read town player. most scum try and blend in more than that.

The irony is killing me.

it was both cult and laser who were very relucant to lynch UV - and with basically no reason. so keeping it simple they prob are scum.
Last scummer is tricky but never mind for now, 2 is good

You're not listening to anything that I'm saying, intentionally or not. Let me ask you a question - in this setup, why would scum be reluctant to lynch their scumbuddy?

[CultOfAthena]

We're going to have to deal with the slot sooner or later. Even if it does turn out to be a Town slot, it's not like they're doing anything to help out. There isn't really any harm in doing this.

VOTE: Zulfy

What's the need to deal with him today as opposed to in the future? Presumably if the lurking is actually due to real life reasons and not an in-game strategy, that should be cleared up sometime later. This seems uncharacteristically concise and nonanalytical, compared to my playerimage of you.

Remember, there is no night kills or power roles in this setup. Therefore the usual reasons for not wanting to lynch lurkers, or even marginally scummy players don't really exist here... we don't risk losing a strong townie voice or PR by lynching them. We just lose a slot that we can't read. It's likely that sooner or later, especially once we get down to only one or two scum left, we're probably just going to have to systematically lynch a couple of the players that people are fairly uncertain about, and that's fine. We have mislynches to spare, and with each scum we lynch, we can afford to lose another townie.

Yes, Zulfy could someday produce some great content that would make it worth keeping them around. Frankly, I think their content will need to be truly speculator to get them up to near-conftown status. Or they could continue to lurk and prod dodge for the foreseeable future. How much time is worth waiting for them to do something on the off-chance that they contribute something of value?

@Athena,

why didn't you respond to me here?

It didn't seem like you were looking for a response and Zulfy had already begun posting at the time. I still disagree, however, and so I'll illustrate my opinion for you.

For one, you're calling Zulfy a "lurker", which carries with it some connotation that isn't accurate in this situation. Zulfy hasn't been "active lurking", ie posting only to prod dodge - so far it appears like he was actually busy in real life and now has more time to dedicate towards the game. The way that his wagon popped up today was jumping the gun. I also take particular issue with your last sentence. How much time is worth waiting? How much is time worth at all? What do we lose of significance by waiting just a few days into the new day phase for someone who was (or at least, professed to be) busy in real life to catch up and begin producing content? Even further, what's with the expectation that Zulfy has to get himself to "near-conftown status"? It seems like you're placing expectations upon him that don't apply to anyone else, and I'm not sure why.

Unless you're still pushing Zulfy on the grounds of lurking, however, the point is moot.

[CultOfAthena]

@mozamis

VOTE: zulfy

Normally I would say "we should have done this day 1" but since we caught scum, I'll let you guys off!
but really, this guy has doen LITERALLY no scum hunting all game, less than when town lurk.
i've seen scum lurk like this many times.

obv, there is a chance of him being town and lurking, but if so, we have 1 mislynch available, yeah??

but, as i say this is mainly a genuine "this guy is scum" lynch

, with a twenty per cent PL Lurker lynch as well.

Cult is still my other top pick for scum.
Who the last scum is I'm less clear now.

What makes you think Zulfy is scum? That's a pretty detailed read for someone with two posts, total - seven, if you count his predecessor.

[CultOfAthena]

Quite the contrary, I expect that anyone who is not basically conftown is going to get lynched before the end of the game (and I include myself in this count). I think it's fairly likely that sooner or later we're just going to have to start PoE lynching a bunch of people... I don't see any way around this if at least one scum is even marginally competent. We don't have any investigative PRs, and don't have any extra information as provided through the night kill. Conftown is the only thing we have that even remotely resembles a PR in this game, but it's a powerful one. If we get four conftown players at this point, we can win by literally just lynching every other player in the game.

You place far too much confidence in the idea that people can even become "conftown" in this setup. I'm not sure whether you have any ulterior motive or not to push this idea, but either way it's an incredibly dangerous one. You shouldn't treat anybody as conftown in this setup - perhaps the

primary

goal that scum actually have this game is to insert themselves into that group, whereupon if we were to follow your strategy, scum would win guaranteed.

At the time of posting my vote, Zulfy essentially no content, and Archwing before him had little enough. As I said earlier, policy lynching this game is very low risk for Town... we aren't trading a bad slot (lurker) for a good slot (somebody who gets NKed)... we're just losing a player with minimal content that is hard to read, and narrowing the number of potential scum candidates, something that we're very likely going to have to do anyway. This is actually why I like the scum pools that Luca has been setting up. If we can get to a point where we can pretty confidently say "there is one scum in these three players", then it is actually not a terrible play for Town just to lynch everyone in the pool even on the off-chance that all three are Town.

Why would you rather lynch someone who you have no or little information on as compared to someone you have information on and you believe to be scum? Comparatively little information is gained from a lurker lynch as compared to a lynch on a more active player.

[CultOfAthena]

What do you think the alternative is? If we have a choice between lynching player that is 90% likely to be town and another that is 40% likely to be town, the correct play is to lynch the one that is 40% likely to be town. The more players that we can put into this category, the more likely we are to win. Now sure, at this stage of the game, saying we have four or five conftown players is silly. We don't.

You're confusing the idea of conftown with "townread". You're describing a scenario where you townread someone confidently. Previously, you were describing a scenario in which someone was simply written off as conftown. As an example of the distinction, for now I'm treating Luca as conftown but I personally believe the lynch restriction was an incredibly scummy thing to do. When you have a conftown player, you ignore the facets of their play. When you townread someone, that's

based

on the facets of their play.

Because a player that is active is likely to continue to be active. They will be easier to sort as the game goes on.

I don't feel like that really answers the question of why a low information lynch is better than a reads-based lynch, unless the sole deciding factor in who you vote is activity. Also an empirically unreliable idea, as evidenced by Lucky and players less active today.

[CultOfAthena]

Out of those the first would be cy and the last would be Zaraki. That's simply a hierarchy given those options, however, and presents a false image of my true reads. I doubt I would be willing to vote any of those three today.

What are your true reads? What prevents you from voting ANY of the lynch pool that Luca posited?

I scumread other people more than them.

[CultOfAthena]

I scumread other people more than them.

In all fairness, this sucks. I realize you're tired of Luca grilling you, but you could at least give me the time of day. I'd like to be able to feel good about your content, but I don't. Help me out.

I wasn't attempting to be intentionally obtuse. The reason really is as simple as that. What prevents me from voting in the lynch pool? It's because I scumread people not in the list more than those people. I'm not entirely sure what else you're expecting.

Why don't you feel good about my content in general?

[CultOfAthena]

As an example of the distinction, for now I'm treating Luca as conftown but I personally believe the lynch restriction was an incredibly scummy thing to do.

This is getting irritating now.

Just because you theoretically disagree with something doesn't make is scummy.

I don't believe I ever implied that it's scummy just because I disagree with it.

To call it '

incredibly scummy'

means it's something scum would do and Town wouldn't do, which you have no evidence or rational logic to support. Does Town create lynch pools? Invariably they do. Is there anything

inherently

scummy about limiting the number of considered lynch candidates based on the evidence available? Of course there isn't - this is something everyone does to some degree, the difference is I'm being open about it because a) I'm the most trusted Townie and my opinion currently holds most influence, b) we have half the normal amount of RL days available so need to condense our scumhunting where possible and c) we already have a lot of information available in order to sort the players who are more likely to flip scum.

I've highlighted the key word here - inherently. You're arguing against me in a general sense, but everything I've said has been within the context of this game specifically.

Calling something "incredibly scummy" doesn't mean that only scum would do it, it means that to me it's far more likely to come from scum than from town. I do have rational logic to support this idea. In this setup scum don't have the ability to control the conversation through the nightkill that they typically do. They can't kill off the voices that they don't want heard. If, however, they can discredit or otherwise shut down what those people are saying before they've even said it, then the game is already theirs. Yes, both town and scum will create lynch pools, but you've specifically pushed yourself as being totally in control of who we lynch today. Lynchpools normally represent a single person's

desires

as opposed to their

demands

. I've already made these points before - I don't think you ever responded to them.

Smart people can make bad decisions. Someone who got one scum can be completely off on their reads. Even someone who looks like confirmed town could still be scum. The point I'm trying to make is that what you're doing is completely counterproductive, in the true sense of the word involving productivity. If people see those five people as the scummiest then discussion will naturally center around them. Attempting to stifle any discussion outside of that group doesn't "focus" things, it causes pointless strife and acts as a lazy excuse for avoiding discussion. In fact, attempting to control the discussion is probably one of the most anti-town actions I can think of in this setup - scum can't kill off the voices they don't want to be heard, but if they can attempt to shut down anything they're saying before it's even said then the disadvantage is null.

I have points I think are valid regarding people outside of your group - you're not going to stop me from making them. If you're going to argue against that or completely ignore them just on principle, consider what you're really accomplishing by doing so.

Please don't take this as pointless debate. If you're town, I'm trying to tell you why I think you're making a mistake. If you're scum, hopefully this gives other people pause, as well as reason to not simply take things as they are presented.

[CultOfAthena]

Why don't you feel good about my content in general?

this is scum "survivalism"

I've already responded to this idea in 615 - also, please look at 672.

[CultOfAthena]

Given that nobody seems to be picking up on what I've been saying, I'll say it a little more explicitly -

mozamis is scum

.

He's not actually playing the game in any manner that realistically comes from town. His scumread on me supposedly comes entirely from my relation to the UCV lynch, but anyone actually thinking things through would realize that this isn't even itself a scumtell, nor a reason for someone to be your top scumread. It's fake. He's also twice now dodged giving any concrete reasoning for why he suspects me (in 421 more obviously, in 596 by commenting on my post more than responding to it), I assume because it would reveal how little reason he actually holds.

Even more, the zulfy wagon was terrible. 558 is practically a scumclaim, especially in the light of what I quoted earlier:

Also, here's a nice little bit of irony that I found looking back through the game:

VOTE: Zulfy
im leaving this here until he makes a post or two.

so why are you voit ng somone who has barel yposted and who has no chance of getting lynched?

doesnt really look like scumhunting tbh

Mozamis claimed that he had reasons and that it was a genuine scum lynch as opposed to just a lurker lynch, but again has avoided providing any sort of reasoning (for the same reason, I suspect). These aren't the genuine thoughts and progressions of an uninformed townie, these are the efforts of scum.

Other people seem to have avoided giving opinions on him so I'd appreciate if everyone could give their opinions on this.

And who's the voice scum would have chosen to silence if they had a NK? Undeniably mine, which is why I must be the strongest voice for today.

I'm not shutting down or discrediting anyone. This argument in itself is more anti-town than my lynch pool ever was, so let it drop and talk about something relevant, please.

Quite easily deniable, but I'm entirely willing to leave the conversation as it stands.

[CultOfAthena]

@ Cult: Zulfy is no longer my top scum read, I dont see the point of that post you are referring to?

You said you had real reasons that he was scum, rather than it just being a lurker lynch. Even if you don't still think he's scum, what were those reasons?

[CultOfAthena]

Given that nobody seems to be picking up on what I've been saying, I'll say it a little more explicitly - mozamis is scum.

ah the invetibale frustrated scum "OMGUS" - attack is best form of defence, eh?!
Done it myself.
Although you give yourself away lol "no one seesm to be picking up on what I'm saying" i.e the SHADE I'VE BEEN THROWING lol

I'm not sure why you take this as some kind of development - I've been voting you since the start of the day.

To you, what's the difference between pointing out scum and shade throwing?

[CultOfAthena]

You said you had real reasons that he was scum, rather than it just being a lurker lynch. Even if you don't still think he's scum, what were those reasons?

1) he still could be scum, altho he's some way behind you, Laser, and Cy .

It's telling that this is your number one reason.

2) I didn't like Archer, so i guess i was biased against Zulfy when he replaced in. If you look back, i think Archer was my top scum read early on.
3) when he did replace in, he came out with one or 2 lurkery prod dodge posts which didnt look great.
3) Then he lurked.
All of which added up to the scum read.
However, once he started posting more, he seemed much more honest - that thing about his wallet getting stolen sounded honest.
So he is probably town.

All of this sounds really suspiciously like "lurker lynch" to me. Either you're lying now or you were lying then about having real reasons.

I appreciate it's your job to make mountains out of molehills, but people change their reads the WHOLE time in mafia - you'll have to do better than this

Nice discrediting without making any sort of concrete statement. What I've been doing isn't shade throwing -

this

is shade throwing.

Yes, townies change their mind all the time in mafia,

naturally

. Your progression is fake.

[CultOfAthena]

@ Luca I learned a hard lesson from a game recently that conf town doesnt mean infallible. So I'm trying to keep an open mind here. Cult has been my instinct read here for awhile, partially in part because of the way they fight back so much against you to the point of it being an attempt to discredit and still spread doubt that you might be scum.

Woah, there's a massive disconnect between those two sentences. Like, the central ideas of those two sentences are

completely

in opposition.

[CultOfAthena]

First, you talk about how you're placing less confidence in conftowns. Then, you say you suspect me because of my efforts to get people to place less confidence in conftowns.

[CultOfAthena]

Athena, you should join me in voting LaserGuy.

We can look at Moz Tomorrow.

No, thank you. What's the benefit to leaving discussion to tomorrow?

[CultOfAthena]

What's the benefit of letting LaserGuy off the hook for free?

Who said anything about that? You're ignoring all of my points on mozamis today, with the point that they can be discussed tomorrow. Why wait until tomorrow to discuss them?

[CultOfAthena]

I sincerely doubt that scum almost certainly about to get lynched gives town the wealth of associative information that Laser did.

[CultOfAthena]

And the damning thing is that self deprecatong 2 I put my own play at 40 per cent town this game". What self repecting townie ever says anything like that?!

Someone being honest with themselves? Why do you think it comes from scum?

[CultOfAthena]

How about everyone who's made the promise to say something "tomorrow" just says it right now? Deadline doesn't matter, given the setup is nightless.

[CultOfAthena]

I sincerely doubt that scum almost certainly about to get lynched gives town the wealth of

its a lot of waffle as well - he gives town "percentages" but his strongest read was the zulfy policy lynch!

I sincerely doubt that scum almost certainly about to get lynched gives town the wealth of

its a lot of waffle as well - he gives town "percentages" but his strongest read was the zulfy policy lynch!

In theory, it would likely be because we have a lesser amount of information and it's mostly non-towny, it'd make sense. Buuut, policy lynches, I do believe he said were not good, yet his strongest is a policy lynch. I must call bull on that point. (Not that if he isn't town, he isn't trying. I made a post like that too)

His strongest scumread was sesq - not a policy lynch. Are you guys misreading this or am I?

[CultOfAthena]

I feel like a lot of the hate on Sesq is OMGUS due to his toxic playstyle.

Quite possibly. I think the inverse is also true - mozamis' townread on Sesq seems to me to come from them sharing a playstyle. It should be noted, though, that most of Sesq's toxicity has been directed towards me but I still think Sesq is probably town.

[CultOfAthena]

That's kind of demanding. Why are you so controlling of the lynches?

arguing with the strongest read town player? Town.

The irony is

still

killing me.

[CultOfAthena]

thats uncalled for

Saying that reading what I write makes you want to mutilate your genitals seems uncalled for. Saying that I don't seem to be thinking very hard seems uncalled for. Calling my posts "padded bullshit" when I've been making the specific attempt to put a lot of thought and effort into my posts seems uncalled for, to me.

[CultOfAthena]

You're townreading Zaraki for that post?

No way in the world scum want to get on your bad side. You are strong tow n read, controlling the lynches. They get on your bad side, it could game over for them.
And more vague shade throwing from Cult lol

I'm dying. I'm choking to death on irony. It's too much - someone please send help.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm here now. The laserguy deadline lynch was horrible.

More to follow soon.

[CultOfAthena]

SCUM NOT VOTING?- seems likely, they all need to pounce to get the mislynch? so 3 scum in Zulfy, CY, Cult, Zaraki. I rule out Sesq, who i thought was voting Cult anyway.

I literally have not posted once this day phase. If I had, it would've probably been to park my vote on you again, but I digress. What makes you think scum are more likely not voting than voting?

[CultOfAthena]

It's a no NK game, so scum must mislynch. So you'd think they could be waiting to see which way the wind blows? Scum have day chat, so you'd think they would be co-ordinating when to wagon someone.

Do you have any reason to believe that they're waiting to follow onto a wagon of town's formation rather than pushing a wagon themselves?

and i note you finally appear when you are under suspicion again lol

I haven't been active on site since my last posts here. You can check this, quite easily.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm dying. I'm choking to death on irony. It's too much - someone please send help.

Just saw this and lol'd. Definite pot calling the kettle black.

Hm? Was this with regards to me? I'm not really getting the analogy to the situation.

i think that hammer from ZSaraki was shit " Hey, man, thought he wqs like town, so yeah..." then he didn thammer, then eventrually he did?
Could be scum reluctant to be the hammer.

Agreed. Normally I'd be inclined to look at this just as newbie play, but that's come back to bite me in the past.

ucv shit, posts are bloated and makes a lot of individual smaller "observations" on shit without any real agenda or hardly any reads (scum strategy through and through). very dishonest and shady. dodges questions. annoying.

It sounds to me like you're scumreading me for my playstyle or my personality moreso than anything else. I don't often outright state people as town or scum but I think people can get a pretty good idea of what I'm thinking just by actually reading my posts. Where am I dishonest or shady?

Impede has flip flopped on several reads. He defended ucv. He has used "fine just Lynch me" statements a few times. He words things in a way that misrepresent the people he is talking about. I'm on mobile, so I hate quoting the examples of all this

but I can do so when I get home if someone disagrees with any of that.

Impede or CoA.

Did you ever get around to this?

[CultOfAthena]

Athena makes a good point. It's epically WIFOM to say whether scum were or weren't on the Laser wagon. Obviously they'd be hesitant, but I don't think we can PoE everyone on the wagon. Instead we should be looking for people who tried to advertise their dislike of the lynch and either hopped on anyway or stuck to their guns for reasons that aren't apparent or consistent. This would indicate someone who is alignment informed.

My point was more that, ignoring meta, scum could just as easily start a wagon themselves as they could be waiting to sheep a wagon started by a townie. I'd agree on the inconsistency point, however.

point still stands

901 is weird

No, if mozamis is saying that people are scum for waiting before moving their votes then the point doesn't still stand. I haven't been around so regardless of my alignment my vote wasn't going to move. You're tunneling me quite a bit – thoughts on who else is scum / who you think my partners are?

[CultOfAthena]

I'd like to lynch within Lucky and Impede today. My gut is leaning more towards Impede as scum, but I'm going to reread a little bit to try to clarify things.

[CultOfAthena]

well thats a big surprose, lucky the biggest lwagon atm and few people been talking about suspecting impede.
cult still pings me, so few reads, so few opinons.

Are you seriously accusing me of being scum sheeping an easy wagon? Do you really think that point makes sense? Also: completely not true on the second sentence.

for example, she agreed with me about Zaraki's hammer being maybe bad. And then doesn't mention him again.
I feel town would have said, "so yeah, maybe zaraki is scum" or "i'm gonna vote for Zaraki".
Feels more like she was just agreeing with me for the sake of making a post.

It sounds to me like you're scumreading me for my playstyle or my personality moreso than anything else. I don't often outright state people as town or scum but I think people can get a pretty good idea of what I'm thinking just by actually reading my posts. Where am I dishonest or shady?

If you notice the qualifier in that statement "if" was never activated so I never felt the need.

Things have happened since then. I still don't know why casing Impede got me such bad backlash, but whatever. Impede's responses were not quite as scummy as I would have hoped to help me enforce this wagon, so I'm back off it. Cult is fine for today. Perhaps shouldn't have got distracted from this to begin with.

VOTE: CoA

What's changed since then? What made you think Impede was no longer a good wagon?

[CultOfAthena]

Okay, thanks for playing.

[CultOfAthena]

Where am I lying?

[CultOfAthena]

Finally caught up. Here's where I'm at as far as reads. Not going to post a ton of rationale since I need to get back to work (on lunch right now), but most of it is in my previous posts from the past hour. Feel free to question anything in particular that doesn't jive and I'll explain.

Town

to

Null

to

Scum

:

Sesq, Moz

UCV*, Luca, Cy

----slight

Laser*, Comm

----leaning town

CoA*, Arch('s slot)*

----leaning scum

Lucky, Zaraki

*indicates a need for more content. Don't feel great about these reads.

I feel like I need to sort. Here's my sorting:

{Luca, Moz}

{Sesq, Cy}

{Comm, CoA, Zaraki}

{Zulfy, Lucky}

[CultOfAthena]

Athena, did you have a point to make or are you just posting for reference?

Paranoia strikes deep.

VOTE: Impede

[CultOfAthena]

Impede, you're lying about your reads. They're fake.

I'm gonna chop the lynch pool down to three.

LaserGuy
Impede
Zaraki

One of these is being lynched today.

I responded to Laser's "case" against me in 511 in my 516. The issue kinda fell dead after that. If you have concerns, it's much more town-beneficial to air them and question the individuals regarding their behavior than just throw out blanket lynch lists.

Worth noting that I also completely agree that there is 1-2 scum in this list

.

Given that nobody seems to be picking up on what I've been saying, I'll say it a little more explicitly - mozamis is scum.

ah the invetibale frustrated scum "OMGUS" - attack is best form of defence, eh?!
Done it myself.
Although you give yourself away lol "no one seesm to be picking up on what I'm saying" i.e the SHADE I'VE BEEN THROWING lol

This reeks of scum.

Going to try and make time during my lunch tomorrow to drop some updated reads. Sorry for being semi lurky. Life is busy and I live and work right in the middle of all the So Cal fires. Don't think I'll get evacuated, but it's been hectic.

What's the benefit of letting LaserGuy off the hook for free?

Who said anything about that? You're ignoring all of my points on mozamis today, with the point that they can be discussed tomorrow. Why wait until tomorrow to discuss them?

This is towny

. I'm annoyed by Moz's play style right now, but I initially townread him. Feeling scummier with some recent posts, but I think he deserves an ISO. I may jump on this.

I feel like I need to sort. Here's my sorting:

{Luca, Moz}

{Sesq, Cy}

{Comm, CoA, Zaraki}

{Zulfy, Lucky}

Compare those thoughts to your readslist and then compare that readslist to the same one 800 posts ago. It doesn't seem like you actually take into account any of the things that you point out – you're just saying them.

Spoiler: LaserGuy inconsistency/opportunism

We're going to have to deal with the slot sooner or later. Even if it does turn out to be a Town slot, it's not like they're doing anything to help out. There isn't really any harm in doing this.

VOTE: Zulfy

What's the need to deal with him today as opposed to in the future? Presumably if the lurking is actually due to real life reasons and not an in-game strategy, that should be cleared up sometime later. This seems uncharacteristically concise and nonanalytical, compared to my playerimage of you.

Remember, there is no night kills or power roles in this setup. Therefore the usual reasons for not wanting to lynch lurkers, or even marginally scummy players don't really exist here... we don't risk losing a strong townie voice or PR by lynching them. We just lose a slot that we can't read. It's likely that sooner or later, especially once we get down to only one or two scum left, we're probably just going to have to systematically lynch a couple of the players that people are fairly uncertain about, and that's fine. We have mislynches to spare, and with each scum we lynch, we can afford to lose another townie.

Yes, Zulfy could someday produce some great content that would make it worth keeping them around. Frankly, I think their content will need to be truly speculator to get them up to near-conftown status. Or they could continue to lurk and prod dodge for the foreseeable future. How much time is worth waiting for them to do something on the off-chance that they contribute something of value?

I like this lots. Agree to your points.

If Zulfy flips red, Laser is conftown in my book.

Even if Zulfy's town, this seems towny to me

I'm unconvinced that Laser is scum

. Your case against him seems shallow. I have more townleans in his content than scumleans. I think defending UCV is too obvscum and it came off more as him questioning your tunneling. Idk what to make about him coming along to hammer. If he really disagreed with the lynch, it seems odd for him to run in and hammer unless he's scum desperate for towncred. Also kinda obvscum imo

Fine. I think I have a decent case for CoA, but I'll wait til tomorrow. Don't see any sense in defusing what seems like a town wagon.

This isn't my favorite lynch, but upon scumlensing Laser's ISO, I can see some D1 fence-sitting and a lot of D2 opportunism. If nothing else, this flip will be heavily informative, as Laser is quite selective with whose reads he agrees with and whose he decides to question or try to discredit.

VOTE: Laser

This is L-1.

[CultOfAthena]

Paranoia strikes deep.

By the way, this was in regards to myself, not some kind of coy comment towards you.

[CultOfAthena]

I could go along with an Impede lynch, but it seems to me Zulfy will have to be lynched at some point regardless.

What's the benefit to doing it now?

[CultOfAthena]

Compare those thoughts to your readslist and then compare that readslist to the same one 800 posts ago. It doesn't seem like you actually take into account any of the things that you point out – you're just saying them.

Reads change. Both of those posts were also made as interim posts before I could get caught up on the game and were mostly based on a single post. You should be more worried about players who fence-sit or tunnel for no apparent or defensible reason.

Worth noting that Laser also scumread me for having some inconsistency in my reads. I question if that's actually a scumtell or not. Opportunism is scummy; having a malleable position on the gamestate is not.

Yes, reads change. I've said this before, but town's reads change naturally – scum have to fabricate their reads and will change them as convenient. It seems to me like your reads are the latter rather than the former. Fencesitting and tunnelling come from town all the time – fabricated reads usually don't.

[CultOfAthena]

Normally slots like that where you're not able to attain an educated read are best to get rid of before a MYLO situation arises.

That may be standard practice in normal games, but again, what's the benefit? I think I've caught scum – I'd much rather get rid of that then get rid of a lurker.

The later we get into this game, the more we are hurt by having nullreads and a shrinking number of allowed MLs. Best to keep content-generating players generating content because they are easier to sort. Players like Zulfy are the reason the term Policy Lynch was created. It's literally a win-win and I challenge anyone to disagree with me.

You don't get a free pass just for generating content. It seems to me like scum are eager to push the lurker lynch narrative as a way to dodge lynches for a while. The day two Zulfy wagon was just as terrible.

[CultOfAthena]

If you think my reads are fabricated, then by all means, let's have a conversation. I think I'm being fairly transparent however and I'm happy to address anything in particular that seems incongruous to you.

I've already quoted major inconsistencies that I've found: the Laser vote, your unchanging readslist, the comments that didn't seem to factor into anything. You can try to justify these things after the fact but you'll largely be justifying yourself to everyone else, not to me.

[CultOfAthena]

I seriously don't know where you and Sesq get off

defending him

.

This is a critical mistake in your interpretation of what I'm saying. I'm not defending Zulfy as a townread – I'm saying that there are better options today that also give us far more information going foward.

[CultOfAthena]

Also, so we're clear: You are accusing me of being too consistent or too inconsistent? Refer to my blue highlights in your quote.

The fact that your readslist did not change is inconsistent with the posts you made ostensibly attempting to determine people's alignments.

[CultOfAthena]

CoA went dead silent in the events leading up to the lynch and went kind of aggro trying to form a wagon on me instead.

Is this the third time this game where my not being around has been interpreted as deliberate silence? Nobody else seems to be being held to this same standard.

I'm going to reread the thread a bit closer, both with the flip and with the information that only two scum remain unknown. Preliminary thoughts say that Lucky is scum.

[CultOfAthena]

By the way, placing the timing of my push on you in relation to the Zulfy wagon to say that I was attempting to create a distraction makes the mistake of thinking that I can see the future.

[CultOfAthena]

Sesq is really worrying. She still isnt the player i played with before, some real wishy washy stuff about "sell m eon lucky amd zaraki" -

what happened to her Cult scum read?

Definitely agreed, here. For the player who's hard tunneled me for maybe more than half of the game now, the recent change in behavior is quite the disparity.


In contrast to my usual style I think I'll be agreeing with a consensus lynch today. I think we're at the point where we can just start getting flips and look back through the entire thread with more and more information.

VOTE: Lucky

[CultOfAthena]

I'm hesitant to just begin speedlynching because I get the feeling that the wagon will eventually come around to me, but I don't see a lot more to be gained from waiting.

a cautionary tale
This was a really good game. One for the purists, and on ethat made me really paranoid/
Scum busse dhard first coupl eof days, got the town cred, became leader and won. I sheeped the game, like everyone else. Until LYLO but by then he had built up too much cred...

All my way of saying: lets stay paranoid as fuck lol

My thoughts

exactly

. You don't need to remind me on the paranoia.


VOTE: Sesq

[CultOfAthena]

My thoughts are that if we don't win the game in the next three or so lynches, we're in for quite the ordeal.

[CultOfAthena]

I don't want to lynch moz before cy or impede.

[CultOfAthena]

Wow, hadn't realized that we had already gotten Zaraki.

Athena: Why? What's your Town case on Moz?

There are people I'd prefer were lynched before him. Namely, you. I haven't had time to fully read through the thread again with all of the new flip information but I had the impression that the one big interaction between you and Lucky was S/S. At the time I was suspicious of Lucky's reasons for suddenly switching off of you and onto me – with the knowledge that he's scum that becomes all the more damning. Everything that I said before still applies, as well.

That being said, I'm not saying that I'd necessarily want you lynched today. Like I said, I'd still like to review the thread again.

@Cy

– There's a good chance that you could be today's lynch. Last thoughts? Things we should keep in mind?

[CultOfAthena]

Interesting that you townread Impede over me. Should we take this as the day to talk things out and try to sort further? If Cy is town then knowing that won't change much upon review, and if he's scum then there's still nothing to lose as we can still lynch him at the end of the day anyways.

[CultOfAthena]

Well, me saying that it's interesting is really just me saying that I think you're off on your Impede read. What makes him a final 3 townie, to you?

[CultOfAthena]

Moz' post is BS. He is the one who wanted a Zaraki lynch over a Sesq one, and then he says I'm scummy for lynching Zaraki over Sesq?

It seemed to me like he was saying the

manner

in which you switched wagons was scummier, moreso than the vote itself.

Why do you think Moz as scum tries to push you, here?

[CultOfAthena]

Oh my gosh, I was about to make a point about "valid reasons" and then I realized that it's 1826 again.

I think I'll come back to this game tomorrow.

[CultOfAthena]

Recent interactions paint Luca in a better light and mozamis in a worse one. Mozamis has been a little all over the place the entire game but his progression today seems particularly panicked / desperate. I'm not entirely sure what to make of Cy – the "lynch me" bit seems faked but his play is quite different compared to the game I was in where he was scum.

[CultOfAthena]

I want to lynch Athena just because it's so hard to make a case against her.

If you're town, perhaps this should indicate something to you?

She loves to talk about how she creates all this content, but it always feels hollow. I feel like very few of her posts meaningfully advance the game, but she manages to look super towny while doing it.
I'm good with this today.

VOTE: Athena

I've only talked about how much content I create this game twice (548 and 615), both times in response to people alleging that I don't post anything of relevance. That's hardly me "loving" to talk about myself.

[CultOfAthena]

Just the impression I have. I haven't ISO dived you, but idk if I need to. Just feel like you haven't really pushed for any lynches or advanced the game meaningfully. Might just be a preconceived read, but I have yet to read anything that changed my mind.

Are you forgetting about my push on you or just deliberately ignoring it?

What's everyone's favorites for 3p MYLO? And who would you lynch of the 3?

I'm thinking Luca, Comm, and myself. Lynching Luca.

Comm, Cy and myself (hey, the C Crew – Comm, Cy, CoA). If the game isn't won there, probably lynch Cy, although I'd take a look at some of Comm's scumgames at that point. He hasn't seemed like his usual abrasive townie self as of recent.

[CultOfAthena]

Out of all of the 3p situations that don't include me that's probably the best one, but I don't trust people to follow through on it. Like, if you're alive in a 3p lylo you're never accepting yourself getting lynched, so it seems to me like you're just saying that to get me to accept myself getting lynched on a false promise.

[CultOfAthena]

No I just wanted to gauge how long it would take you to respond. I think you're town.

That's interesting. What was the initial question you wanted answered from how long it would take me to respond, and what conclusion did you draw?

[CultOfAthena]

Check out these back-to-back posts. Super short with Zulfy, almost like "I guess I have to make this look good", versus the long drawn out responses to Moz. Possibly NAI, but it agrees with my theory.

Compare Zulfy's quote with Mozamis' quotes: Zulfy asked yes/no questions while Mozamis accused me of things patently not true. Obviously one invites more comment than the other. By the way, if you're saying "Possibly NAI but it agrees with my theory" to yourself, you should take a step back for a moment to think about things.

UNVOTE:

Thinking about moving this to Athena.

All of her arguments are with town with a few exceptions

. There are a few interactions with scum that feel forced, almost like someone said "hey guys don't forget to interact in thread". The only missing puzzle piece is where the grand master plan is. Need to ISO our flipped scum.

Why would that lead you to vote me over everyone else? Are you saying that everyone else is a townread to you?

I'll try to make town/scum cases for everyone soon. Having some access issues at the moment.

[CultOfAthena]

Dang, sorry to have missed the grand finale. Well played to cy – I could definitely see a scenario where I would end up succumbing to paranoia and lynching Comm in a lylo with the three of us. Good game to everyone, scum and town.

[CultOfAthena]

Luca – I'm not sure what it is about you that always gets me so paranoid. Sorry about that this game.

Laser – Nice performance. One of my main regrets this game is not defending you more.

But yeah, this game was a pretty solid one. I think scum of future games need to be more willing to bus because they have ZERO kill abilities, so they need to be in a hard town-bloc or they lose.

Definitely agreeing here, and perhaps this contributed to my paranoia on Luca. What I would see as one of the best strategies scum could undertake would be exactly what went on with UCV. Perhaps it's not game winning by itself as shown by the number of people willing to lynch Luca by the end, but it would certainly put scum ahead.

[CultOfAthena]

Athena: Not sure why you never made it into the townblock lol. After I read your ISO it became pretty clear you were most likely town. Maybe because you were mostly a dissenting voice. Well played overall though. Sorry for flip flopping on you so much haha.

No worries. Sorry for calling your reads fake.