Geriatric Players Club

[AxleGreaser]

I'll collect a list of names and come up with a way forward this weekend, probs.

If you are taking names and numbers ...

I am old/geriatric and you may not be my generation (neither am I, yet) but i am young at heart. Plan to die that way, eventually.
just not in diapers.

It's unfortunate that this is taken as bullying, when the intention is for

everyone

to be able to play in an enjoyable way. Some playstyles are incompatible with others, and that cannot be changed - what can be done, however, is for people to avoid signups with conflicting playstyles.

(emph mine)
That is an issue i have struggled with. I have long been considering starting modding, and modding games... with a WOTM... with a possibly 'longish' (aka >>1) list.

The games were going to try and self select people whod like to play "that" way.
I was even considering being a vig centric mod. (how many vigs would evolve over time, until hopefully they were not needed)
There used to be risk that if you played in a way, that was incompatible with town cohesion you would just die. n1. getting vigged n1, is not good for scum. If every player had the issue of trying not to be the one that died to a town bullet n1.
That would tilt the evolution table, esp if on average the games i modded started off with the "right" population. (a tilted sample)(tilted by a WOTM list and by the clear intention to make it approach moutainous. << aimed to attract people who want to play on a team. (not play the hero) )

Limited roles, lots of VT. Approaching mountainous as balance. <<<< hence requiring town play to be towny or lose.

Balance which decides however badly town plays , balance must continually chase it making setups more and more town favored in setup, to allow for the ever less towny towns
is what is known in math/evolution as a red queen race. It imo ends badly.

---

Re this:

Gamma Emerald has been struck from the list in accordance with post 28. Thanks for the willingness to slow down

and me saying

with a WOTM... with a possibly 'longish' (not 1) list.

yeah that part has given me the most grief.
(hence I strongly suggest it is worth people think about the social consequences of what they want.)

especially since I think I once read mith 'rule' about invitationals that >seemed to me<basically discouraged them(put hurdles in the way) because they are IMO bad(ish)(risky). (can generate a bad social vibe)
MY WOTM list is MY WOTM list absolutely not public.
Things you can do to be pretty sure you get on it, replace out of games (esp tritely), post zero content. spam yadda yadda. bore me to tears as mod I have to read the game.
However.... if had a pool of players who were going to play... and someone town very probably had a gun. Adding a smaller number of players I'd been iffy about wouldn't spoil the pot.
other things you could do to make me go :\ shoot >badly<. badly is play the hero not solve towns problems. On n1 town can have the problem player X looks like they may never be readable.

Yeah Ive checked if I can run the game id want to run I suspect doesn't meet (cant be squeezed into) the normal criteria wouldn't fit in normal as the are zero 'strict' vts. The closest I can get is
(the game in effect has one compulsive unaware vig)(trust me it happens...)
(every "vt" has an item, a gun they must compulsively fire night 1)(only one (or two?) guns have a bullet that works)(mod knows who in advance)(its not a claimable role XXX)
(optionally they must all fire night two as well if I want the possibility, but maybe not the actuality of two extra town controlled kills)
There may or may not be other "normal" roles in the game, there may or may not be bullets, in chambers for d3 d4 or d5 of the game)
Scum have guns too (and maybe normal scum roles too), theirs are reloadable and every gun they have works. Their problem is bullets, they only get one per day.) (AKA scum have 1 normal night kill.)

Intended Result: players play mafia not, rely on, or game the setup. Balance is known to be such that town cant afford a lot of wasted ego epeen based mislynches. The vig shot cant be used to confirm shooter as town (as even the shooter wont know until post game whose gun shot) It is thus a much more reliably an unreadable by play trash taking out weapon, not so much a hero play weapon or reason not to play towny(like a VT). So Id have to run a "normal" mini first so I could run that as a theme.
But if anyone else with the geriatric WOTM list wants to run one be my guest. 13P I am thinking 1 vig + protective/jk. 2x1 vig. 1vig + something. (1 compulsive vig + nothing is worse than mountainous) (14p 10p + 1 bare vig is more town favored than mountainous)

[AxleGreaser]

basically a bunch of ranting raving and bitching about hero vigs, which I feel is kinda dumb since vig has about the power of a cop, you can confirm town or scum motive from someone, you can eliminate concern about problem slots (lurkers, constant replacements or dead slots), and tandem with that eliminate players who are possibly town but will always stand in the way of town cohesion.

no its not ranting about hero vigs.
Vigs were the solution to a problem.
Biasing the setup away from hero vig shots and towards house cleaning shots was an attempt to get them to solve the problem they were put in the setup for.

Encouraging town people to play in such a way so to avoid getting shot by town night 1. ('taking out the garbage')

you can eliminate concern about problem slots (lurkers, constant replacements or dead slots),

so as you think its dumb youd run some other setup.

yes but the possibility of getting cop checked n1, doesn't as significantly discourage

problem slots (lurkers, constant replacements or dead slots)

Your mileage may vary.
Apparently it does as you think thats dumb.

[AxleGreaser]

Making everyone have a percentage chance gun wouldent lower the % of hero shots or increase the percentage of shots on disruly players... Having no confirmability has nothing to do with that

FYI there was exactly one or two guns(with bullets) (depending on how many shots the mods design wanted) in the hands of town.

The non claimability, is to lessen people being able to put themselves in confirmed town status which can tend to recreate the same problem that the shot was put in to kill.
My experience is people with real or near mod confirmed town status play differently. And they are different in way I was trying to design a setup to reduce.

The design goal was to be able to get to a game that played a lot like mountainous, but was bit more town favored than that.

---

Wtf does 94 mean

FYI: you can explain WTF this means anytime you like.

does your post also indicate you understood no part of the post: or was it just the bits discussed so far.

asking for an explanation of the whole post seems tall as an order.

[AxleGreaser]

@Kison

: Yeah those proficiency claims below are probably not idle boasts.

We gotta find a way to just block dead/spectators from posting in the game thread & all will be well.

Scum PTs are so much riskier IMO. I was constantly paranoid last time I used one.

If only game threads had to have (end user controlled/configurable) approval to post in them! (no need to export that drudge work onto mods/list mods)

It would eliminate hydra/alt slips and ongiong(not when you were in both games? not sure what pattern (user story) ongoing game slips has.) game slips!

Maybe something to start coding in

needs a slightly tighter feature spec first.

FYI: Software engineering. Hat is On. Axle proficiency Status: walks on water without noticing. (well I used to, perhaps its time to see if I am actually senile yet.)

This is achievable at local level. (for Windows PCs, ... )

Spoiler: details schmetails

It is plausible, very plausible to build a local HTTP proxy server. Ok: so actually I know. I once did what is known as spike solution: AKA I threw away the code once it was done.

My spike did the following things as a proof of concept.
When the fetch requests from my browser went to fetch Avatar jpegs (annoying animated ones), my proxy first checked its local cache (a hard coded, (hence spike) directory on a hard drive G:\mafiatest). And replied with those as overrides if they existed (faked the reply)
I also dumped all actual http:get and http:put requests to log file so I could what was going on at the low level.

I am highly confident such proxy can know what state you are in in terms of which account you are logged into (my screen says logout(Axlegreaser) in the http somewhere)
On threads you don't want to be able to submit to, you simply excise the sumbit button from the web servers reply. (dynamically edit the http, ... on the fly)

Then its simply a matter of partnering that with say a java GUI that lets you control it.
OR as it is already a web proxy server... a clever bunny could lie a bit, (have the proxy actually serve some web pages of its own) and have "special" URL that returns a page that lets you configure the proxy, via a web interface.

OR a bloody clever bunny could um, "cheat" a bit, and slip some extra "buttons" in on game thread pages that let you locally (with persistence) lock them. (and it locally stored who you were logged in as when you did that)

I am thinking Enable[x] Disable [x] DfltDenyAll[x] I'd use it by disabling all (does all of one forum? GD/Games are separate (not quite sure yet) ), then specifically enabling that which is allowed. (good security protocol) (but still allow other people to do things the derpier less secure way, deny just some things)
A disabled game thread has NO submit button. You can still multiquote anything you like just not submit it.

The other user activity when slips can >>potentially<< happen is when you try and grab quote from a locked thread. The way to get it is to start to pm the other person then don't. But instead cutn paste that into a post wherever you mean to send it. Modifying that behavior if its the goal is a bit trickier but still quite doable with local code.

OF COURSE.
Such changes on the server end are potentially more robust. The above is basically a screen scraping solution. If the server changes, making CERTAIN the above would fail gracefully... (AKA simply fail to work) (with virtually zero chance of continuing to "work" but work wrong. Is an issue.)

Looks to mainly look like it would be very probably doable (Which is Axle speak for: obviously will to me) but it is not just a small tweak either way.

caveat

Tin foil hats required.

Spoiler: stuff I wont do : not negotiable or really discussable

This is not software engineering but something else

redacted

:
Skip proficiency Status in

redacted

: thinks walks on water without noticing is for babies. When skip walks on water, water notices skip.

Yeah I had an actual argument with myself. Deal with it.

Skip: Axle, So you may have noticed I nearly fucked up an entire large game wasting lots of peoples time. That would have been sad. I am not fucking this up at all. This is not sad its BIG.
Axle: WAT? Fuck what up? and besides i was playing you just mainly sat at the back of my head. Eating popcorn... IIRC.
Skip: shh (play along kk)(no-one will notice)(this is a way less obvious slip than the one you made)
Axle: <gags> <splutters> <slumps in chair>

Skip: Yes we discussed this when you(Axle) wanted to make the spike solution because you(axle) were curious. And I(skip) said it had risks. But you(axle) sooked/sulked, so I(Skip) let you try it then delete the code. And i(skip) explained rather patiently that while the feature spec of the thing you wanted to build was fine... This other thing that could exist was not so much.
Axle: <sighs>yeah I remember.
Skip: So no matter what you(Axle) are not building a part of the possibly bad things^tm, then releasing it into the wild. As that lowers the barrier to entry of some dick stuffing things up. kk.
Axle: Yes skip: <thinks> egads living with skip is real pain in the arse. Always thinking about the big picture. spoilsport. <sulks>
Skip: <thinks> Bloody hedonistic children wanting see if things go ping if you push them. I thought he grew out of that decades ago. Or maybe that was just when i took over?<hrmphs>>

TLDR: As I don't know certain things that dont exist wont if they do exist be bad for us. I wont build one of the tricksy bits of them. So there exist constraints on what I will and wont do that i wont explain. (Skip wont let me.)
Basically what I will build as a local server has limitations. As way of contrast. If someone wants some feature and thus the admins also want a feature that doesn't exist in the PHPB server software....
Um... yeah... I(Axle) am the kinda person that can fork the PHPB software, "This page was generated by phpBB, the free open-source bulletin board package."
and make it do whatever... yeah pretty much whatever i want. And skips just cool with that. Even if its more work. It stands near no edges. Its fine.
Also I had quick squiz... do blah via the PHPBB ACL lists, but do user level peronalised dynamic configurable conditional (Override)(deny self even when mods let you) accesses control per thread looks tricksy? Thread number looks like the right thing for access group ID, but maybe bleh? For a problem so rare?)

but yeah I believe i can make a windows+Linux binary proxyserver that would do the feature spec. And as a binary skip wouldn't object.

TLDR: Someone would have to want it.
So far my decision that I wont play a mafia game unless I build the proxy server first, is a nice barrier to entry for me playing.
So while it must be done for me before I play, why do i want to build a proxy again? Currently it is my 10 day cool off period on playing again.

[AxleGreaser]

I suspect I'll just get buried by people attacking me because they really personally like dead/spectator threads so they wouldn't be willing to listen to the actual arguments against them.

Not really worth.

I really personally like them, but I regard your points as substantive.....

so
IMO it was worth it so far? but yeah you might still be right after this point.


I had considered (formally) observing some games now I suspect i wont.
That however leaves me with some problems.
Sometimes without being in dead thread i watch a game. (solo dead thread? observation deck. I am watching some now. On and off.)
As I have no one to talk to so I don't need to grab posts. (that means error rate of mistakenly posting in an ongoing game) is exceptionally low. Also I never watch game when I am still 95% asleep)
but ... sometimes I have thought I might want to say something to someone when the game ended. (and I get super paranoid and careful about what i do and how Igab any quote I do get and Pm it to myself.)
Sometimes in my own notes for a game Iam playing, i read an ongoing game and note specific things about the game/player...
yeah i cant post them in my game(until the other ends), but i am allowed to remind myself why i think X in my notes. Even when Y is from an ongoing game.
(in fact the top of every notes page i have has a note about an ongoing game... because that way its fact i am not allowed to paste my notes directly into any game thread. The game is >10years old... but it is still technically an ongoing game... LOL)

There will not be a dead thread or spectator thread for my game. No hydras either.

Id like to point one thing out about dead threads for the dead.
It gives them place to vent, chillax, and then shoot the breeze. Reestablish social cohesion.
I am becoming ever more convinced totally unspoiled ones are best. Personal self reflective assessment and external observation suggests IQ drops by more than 10 points once spoiled. (and i am being kind BTW)
But dead threads even if they get bit ... ahem. Get it out, done and left behind in this game. Not carried over.
Same with post games.

My 2c.

If you would like a rule change .... I like this one.
Sig bets are against the rules as they set up tension between out of game outcomes and in game reads.
Umm... Can anyone explain why claiming in game that after the game people will be blacklisted is not way worse....
basically all discussion of anything after the game ought be out. All in game posts need to be based on the premise that once a player is dead they are dead forever there is no after life. There is no apology after the game. There is please for the love of god read this reads list when I flip, as the reads list is in the game.

That rule change also I think helps people keep it (their anger) in their pants and keep it about this game. Not interpersonal hate/frustration.
If you wanna black list someone.. .after the game. Esp after you see >>all<< the flips.
If you cant get by without raging about blacklisting in the game perhaps you do not belong in a game of mafia (any game?) at the present time.

[AxleGreaser]

dude Axle r u ok

In some ways, kind of confused and wondering why you ask. (As I usually read Axle posts fluently)
I also am Kinda thinking about self: <you idiot.> (at self)(knowing obviously (several) why you

might

ask) (not actual issues just places where people might not understand where i am at / coming from.)

Being able to see multiple perspectives, is a bit confusing when expressed as English.

Spoiler:

Sig says: Getting better all the time
Sig dont lie.

Sig also

has

had some tears, cant remember why, I saw something, I think on this site, before my last game that made me sad.
Sig: sometimes it gets out of date. I notice then it gets fixed.

Something I said somewhere

I am actually just in an amazingly good mood. One so good i had forgotten what it felt like. (3 years min.)

and it felt so weird... I actually went all impartial observer on myself, and found non subjective(ish) evidence of it.

So yeah: as so happy its weird is Ok ya I am Ok.

Also nope the IT skills last time Used them were not delusional. I am pretty damn good. In commercial, scientific, and research contexts.
In commercial contexts I suffer a bit from code monkey syndrome. (Some managers thinks output stinks) But i went back and checked with the maintenance team 3 years after I wrote my first commercial software and asked them to tell about the worst problems that they had trying to maintain my code. They hadn't had any. Apparently they'd spent the vast majority last 9 man years(3x3) maintaining the rest of the project. My code for instance contained comments giving detailed step by step instructions on how to modify and enhance various features that I thought most likely to need modifying. And if you followed the instructions wrong (left a step out) it spat out compiler errors with the text telling you follow the instructions better. (probably also which step you left out, because lols)
So while I can't be certain until I flex my IT muscles again. They are probably still

somewhat better than Ok too

.

So yeah: as so happy its weird is Ok ya I am Ok.

Kind, and observant, of you to ask.

hmm perhaps its this:
I have been catching up on some missing sleep. So yeah as that happens I have getting better all the time too.

Also for while think of me as channeling a kid with new toy. I am going to have more fun than usual for a while. Ok.

[AxleGreaser]

You may want to

reduce

your intake of psychedelics and/or religious efforts,

friend

.

I will put my game into the queue on the 15th of December or when my pre-ins fill, whichever comes first.

I am in deep trouble then....

Re

Reduce

: Negative quantities of either/both are hard to achieve in practice.

but yeah various people at various times in my life have been convinced I was stoned off my face, and were copiously wrong. So you are not alone.
Re

Friend

: Hang loose brother.

FYI: There are more types of different different than just stoner and religious zealot.

[AxleGreaser]

please stop

being me?
Ok.

Your turn.

[AxleGreaser]

If anyone notices an example where anyone actually playing in geriatric game ran out of posts... (in 24 hr day)
Id like to see the example. (id like to decide if was player in the game would have been glad they did...)

Also as i expect that quite possibly just isnt going to happen. (except to troll it)

Then if someone plays a game and wound up in situation where they found themselves even bumping up against the limit and needed to conserve posts for one IRL day and they think it had any real effect on their play.
Id like to see that.

TLDR: having played one non geriatric game and looked at my post counts and found the limit always looked along way away.
So I am curious what effect geriatric rules actually have apart from some people self selecting not to play.

[AxleGreaser]

I did in Chill Mafia in Lylo and maybe the day before

We were running a few fast paced gambits

Let me know what you think

What I think in terms of the question i was pursuing.
Question: Given a larger sample of game situations are there any where my strategic options as town would be limited by post count. Eg if someone ran out did I think theyd been fluffing and failing to decide if their posts were worth making.

Thoughts re your game.

Short
You may have used 10 posts in one IRL day, but there were lots of days and hence posts left on the clock if you really wanted them

Longer
They were fast paced. AKA happened in one IRL day. There was lots of game day left.

If youd run out of ordinary posts there is a reserve.
And then there is always ... chillax and post again tomorrow, or the next day or the next or ....

So yeah counting became a thing you would clearly have done.
From my personal POV the game state did not reach a point where if I was you I would have felt my strategic play was limited by post count.

being close to the end of the game I would even have been quite comfortable dipping into the reserve. Both times.

My Conclusion:
So yeah if that game looks like a game someone would wan to play then playing geriatric games is (can be) for them
if reading the post fests that other games turns into gets them off then other games is (can be) for them.

I see nothing debilitating about geriatric rules. Ive also not seen anything i really would miss in an unrestricted game that geriatric rules would cut out.

Honestly unless someone has some form of need to post I think one should rarely run out of posts since the others won't be posting much either, meaning less to respond to.

That was my impression playing in a game even where other people were unrestricted. Unless I engage in some chatty 1v1 I didnt see a need for 10 posts in one IRL day.