Open 702: Vanilla Nightless Game Over

[MathBlade]

Votecount 1.12

UC Voyager(7)

~ Luca Blight, Sesq, Lucky2u, mozamis, Impede, Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez, LaserGuy

-- HAMMER

CommKnight(2)

~ cytheflyguy, Zulfy

mozamis(1)

~ CultOfAthena

Lucky2u(1)

~ CommKnight

Luca Blight(1)

~ UC Voyager


Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2017-12-02 21:30:00)

FLAVOR

This is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.

Edited only to fix vote count number as I can't count/didn't update the autocounter

Performed 20 calls in 5 seconds. With an average of 0.29435 seconds per call.

[MathBlade]

UC Voyager was a

Mafia Goon

Day Start incoming momentarily. Til then Twilight.

[MathBlade]

Votecount 2.13

Not Voting (11): CommKnight, Zulfy, cytheflyguy, Lucky2u, Luca Blight, CultOfAthena, mozamis, Impede, LaserGuy, Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez, Sesq

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2017-12-07 23:39:00)

FLAVOR

This is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.

Performed 21 calls in 22 seconds. With an average of 1.04785714285714 seconds per call.

Day two is good to go!

Edited only to fix vote count number as I can't count/didn't update the autocounter

[cytheflyguy]

Holy fucking shit.

I'm too tired to actually respond to what happened.

But holy shit.

[Luca Blight]

I have ideas for who I want to target today, but I think the best play here is to sit back and observe for a bit before making my decision.

We need to see a lot more from those who took a backseat during D1.

[Luca Blight]

It has to be said that Cy looks pretty bad here. The only time he really talked about UCV was in this defence of him here:

Spoiler:

UC Voyager

122, 171, 191, 266 - A continuing theme of

'town should/shouldn't be doing this!'

. This is something UCV does when he is scum.

129 - Completely fake scumhunting. Looks contrived with one townread, one null read, one scum read, and no real reasoning for any of it.

141, 143,152, 155, 199 - Buddying me. As I explained before, he knows I know his meta well and that I tunnel on him once I catch on that he's scum, and he entered into this game with the plan of trying to appease me, no doubt about it.

146, 147, 174 - Fence-sitting. This is something I know he does as scum.

159 Asking if Impede's play is lurkscum; why can't he judge this for himself?

189 - non-committal and unexplained reads list where he gives scum leans but says he has no solid scum reads, but is apparently 'still hunting'.

222 - Responds to my vote on him for buddying with a further attempt at buddying, saying it's good I don't always consider those who side with me as being of the same alignment. He's also using emotion here to try and get me to change my mind.

Other than that, I have played with him many times now and can read this guy like a book. UCV is today's lynch - let's make it happen.

Unless anyone can give any good reason why we

shouldn't

lynch UCV today?

Statistics are irrelevant - just because you draw scum one game doesn't mean you're less likely to in the next.

I made a lot of points not involving meta - you haven't addressed them.

I kept an open mind and tried to consider you might be Town, but I just strongly believe you are scum this game. Am I supposed to suppress that feeling in case you get annoyed?

No. Being scumread is part of the game. Deal with it.

Hmm...tbf you only referenced 4 posts that had nothing to do with metaing. These were all the points that had only one post to back up the claim.

The first one made me raise an eyebrow was "no real reasoning for any of it". I'm sorry, but...

OK, so P.O.E time:

Town= Moz, Sesq, Lucca, Lucky, Zaraki, Comm

So scum in: archer, impede, cyber, cult, voyager, laser guy

thats four scum in 6 , good odds!

out of those 6, gun to head i would say scum team is: archer, impede, cult and voyager

Finally caught up. Here's where I'm at as far as reads. Not going to post a ton of rationale since I need to get back to work (on lunch right now), but most of it is in my previous posts from the past hour. Feel free to question anything in particular that doesn't jive and I'll explain.

Town

to

Null

to

Scum

:

Sesq, Moz

UCV*, Luca, Cy

----slight

Laser*, Comm

----leaning town

CoA*, Arch('s slot)*

----leaning scum

Lucky, Zaraki

*indicates a need for more content. Don't feel great about these reads.

{Luca, Cult, Sesq}
{cy, UC}
{Zaraki, Impede, Laser}
{Lucky, moza, Zulfy}

Getting a better feel of people now and moza and Lucky are definitely on the bottom right now. Luca, Cult and Sesq are off the table for today (though Sesq is definitely being looked at more in future days), Cy and UC are more town leans and the rest are more meh. Zulfy is more of an educated gut feel.

People should vote Lucky.

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

Fair

I'll be honest, I'm not too confident in my reads as of late so I wanted to wait things out for a bit.

However, I might as well post some reads just to be relevant again.

Town

Luca Blight
Impede
Laserguy
CultofAthena-Town/Null

Null

UC
Zulfy
Sesq

Scum

Lucky2u-Honestly putting him here
CommKnight
mozamis

I feel like a sheep since this is popular consensus. I work better when there's something I want to contradict.

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Obviously, I don't have the same meta experience as you do (well, none of which I'm allowed to speak of), but you are the only one who has had experience with him out of all of us, as far as I know. I cannot truely take you at your word regarding the meta. Your three posts that I have not addressed do hold some water, but I interpreted them differently. I saw it as more unsure and testing waters more than anything else. I am slightly convinced, but I don't want him lynched just yet. With how fast votes are going for him, for my best interest in using time wisely, I will abstain for now.

And it came at a very telling time - just after a few had joined me in voting UCV (he was L-3 at the time), so as scum he would have a motive here in trying to stem the flow.

The fact he has also generally been lurking throughout but suddenly popped up to make that defence makes it stand out all the more.

FOS cytheflyguy

[Luca Blight]

Comm also needs looking at today.

Spoiler:

{Luca, Cult, Sesq}
{cy, UC}
{Zaraki, Impede, Laser}
{Lucky, moza, Zulfy}

Getting a better feel of people now and moza and Lucky are definitely on the bottom right now. Luca, Cult and Sesq are off the table for today (though Sesq is definitely being looked at more in future days), Cy and UC are more town leans and the rest are more meh. Zulfy is more of an educated gut feel.

People should vote Lucky.

This was the last post he made, and again it came at an interesting time as it was shortly after I started to apply pressure on UCV.

He makes a point of stating UCV as a town-lean, but without any actual explanation for this. He urges people to vote Lucky, perhaps directly looking to influence my vote here following my earlier argument with Lucky, but I was having none of it.

Looking at his site activity, Comm has since been online but has elected not to post.

On this matter, can we get a prod on Comm please @Mod.

[Lucky2u]

Im not sure how to react to that lynch. I didn't actually expect Luca to be so right.

I guess I'll reread and see what interactions stand out.

[Luca Blight]

Basically what I'm doing here is creating a lynch pool for us to consider today. Next one up is

Athena

.

I've disliked Athena's posts throughout to be honest - it feels as though she is always looking at the game at an abstract level without really getting involved or posting anything of relevance. Furthermore, she pretty much avoided directly tackling the UCV issue and instead appeared to discreetly take the conversation in different directions. Her posts regarding cytheflyguy have also been interesting and should be looked into more if one of these two were to flip red.

By the way, here's a fresh take that's sure to get some debate started - there really isn't all that great of a reason for Luca to be as widely townread as he is.

First we have this post which comes when I'm pressing for more votes on UCV. It came out of the blue, and I'm wondering if the motivation behind it was to discredit my opinion on UCV.

In every post she makes after my vote on UCV she ignores the issue and tries to guide the conversation elsewhere, such as in 224, 227, 229, 230, 269 etc etc.

In 295, when I was clearly committed to lynching UCV she asks me what I think of Sesq, Moz and Zaraki - again it feels like she's trying to deflect my attention away from UCV, who she still hasn't mentioned at this point.

400 - Finally she says something about UCV (who is L-2 at this point) and it's a soft-defence of him.

419 - Explains that the people on the UCV wagon gives her pause. She has still offered no actual opinion on UCV herself by this point and this excuse feels like a cop-out. She then continues to talk about things unrelated to UCV.

472 - Congratulates me and says I'm conf Town now to her, possibly an early attempt to get in my good books ahead of D2.

[MathBlade]

Comm also needs looking at today.

Spoiler:

{Luca, Cult, Sesq}
{cy, UC}
{Zaraki, Impede, Laser}
{Lucky, moza, Zulfy}

Getting a better feel of people now and moza and Lucky are definitely on the bottom right now. Luca, Cult and Sesq are off the table for today (though Sesq is definitely being looked at more in future days), Cy and UC are more town leans and the rest are more meh. Zulfy is more of an educated gut feel.

People should vote Lucky.

This was the last post he made, and again it came at an interesting time as it was shortly after I started to apply pressure on UCV.

He makes a point of stating UCV as a town-lean, but without any actual explanation for this. He urges people to vote Lucky, perhaps directly looking to influence my vote here following my earlier argument with Lucky, but I was having none of it.

Looking at his site activity, Comm has since been online but has elected not to post.

On this matter, can we get a prod on Comm please @Mod.

I generally prod at 72 hours. However I will check if that threshold has been met throughout the day.

[Luca Blight]

The other two in the lynch pool for today will be

LaserGuy

and

Zulfy

.

Zulfy has done literally nothing.

LaserGuy has generally pinged me all game. His posts seem too manurfactured for my liking, and his reads unnatural. His justification for townreading cy early on was weak. His theory that me and Lucky are scumbuddies likewise. He criticised my case on UCV yet had nothing better to offer for his preferred lynch candidate.

In some ways he's pretty similar to Athena and avoided commenting on UCV for a long time until called-out on it, and even then showed nothing but stuborness - he said UCV was null to him, yet seemed closed-minded to my POV. When going through why he disliked my case on UCV he basically skipped over the main part, and ignored my response when I pointed this out.

452 pinged me a bit as he wouldn't offer why he scumread me, knowing it would hold no water if UCV flipped scum. I feel like Town here would just share what they're feeling regardless, but scum would be aware of the upcoming flip and would be more reluctant to spill thoughts that are not going to help their cause.

So just to clarify, today we are lynching one of the following:

cytheflyguy
Zulfy
LaserGuy
Athena
Comm

[Luca Blight]

I generally prod at 72 hours. However I will check if that threshold has been met throughout the day.

72 hours seems a lot given the days are half the length in this game, but up to you.

[Impede]

He makes a point of stating UCV as a town-lean, but without any actual explanation for this.

I did the same thing FYI. Although granted it was based off of insufficient content at the time.

[Impede]

Lmao... If we go 4/4 on lynches this game I'm having a plaque made for Luca.

Now that we are post-flip I could explain why I would townread Luca quite hard even if UCV flipped town, but I'd rather not offer it up as a tool for a free townread for scum going forward. Although you can probably guess why.

[Impede]

Holy fucking shit.

I'm too tired to actually respond to what happened.

But holy shit.

This is manufactured.

[cytheflyguy]

It has to be said that Cy looks pretty bad here. The only time he really talked about UCV was in this defence of him here:

Spoiler:

UC Voyager

122, 171, 191, 266 - A continuing theme of

'town should/shouldn't be doing this!'

. This is something UCV does when he is scum.

129 - Completely fake scumhunting. Looks contrived with one townread, one null read, one scum read, and no real reasoning for any of it.

141, 143,152, 155, 199 - Buddying me. As I explained before, he knows I know his meta well and that I tunnel on him once I catch on that he's scum, and he entered into this game with the plan of trying to appease me, no doubt about it.

146, 147, 174 - Fence-sitting. This is something I know he does as scum.

159 Asking if Impede's play is lurkscum; why can't he judge this for himself?

189 - non-committal and unexplained reads list where he gives scum leans but says he has no solid scum reads, but is apparently 'still hunting'.

222 - Responds to my vote on him for buddying with a further attempt at buddying, saying it's good I don't always consider those who side with me as being of the same alignment. He's also using emotion here to try and get me to change my mind.

Other than that, I have played with him many times now and can read this guy like a book. UCV is today's lynch - let's make it happen.

Unless anyone can give any good reason why we

shouldn't

lynch UCV today?

Statistics are irrelevant - just because you draw scum one game doesn't mean you're less likely to in the next.

I made a lot of points not involving meta - you haven't addressed them.

I kept an open mind and tried to consider you might be Town, but I just strongly believe you are scum this game. Am I supposed to suppress that feeling in case you get annoyed?

No. Being scumread is part of the game. Deal with it.

Hmm...tbf you only referenced 4 posts that had nothing to do with metaing. These were all the points that had only one post to back up the claim.

The first one made me raise an eyebrow was "no real reasoning for any of it". I'm sorry, but...

OK, so P.O.E time:

Town= Moz, Sesq, Lucca, Lucky, Zaraki, Comm

So scum in: archer, impede, cyber, cult, voyager, laser guy

thats four scum in 6 , good odds!

out of those 6, gun to head i would say scum team is: archer, impede, cult and voyager

Finally caught up. Here's where I'm at as far as reads. Not going to post a ton of rationale since I need to get back to work (on lunch right now), but most of it is in my previous posts from the past hour. Feel free to question anything in particular that doesn't jive and I'll explain.

Town

to

Null

to

Scum

:

Sesq, Moz

UCV*, Luca, Cy

----slight

Laser*, Comm

----leaning town

CoA*, Arch('s slot)*

----leaning scum

Lucky, Zaraki

*indicates a need for more content. Don't feel great about these reads.

{Luca, Cult, Sesq}
{cy, UC}
{Zaraki, Impede, Laser}
{Lucky, moza, Zulfy}

Getting a better feel of people now and moza and Lucky are definitely on the bottom right now. Luca, Cult and Sesq are off the table for today (though Sesq is definitely being looked at more in future days), Cy and UC are more town leans and the rest are more meh. Zulfy is more of an educated gut feel.

People should vote Lucky.

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

Fair

I'll be honest, I'm not too confident in my reads as of late so I wanted to wait things out for a bit.

However, I might as well post some reads just to be relevant again.

Town

Luca Blight
Impede
Laserguy
CultofAthena-Town/Null

Null

UC
Zulfy
Sesq

Scum

Lucky2u-Honestly putting him here
CommKnight
mozamis

I feel like a sheep since this is popular consensus. I work better when there's something I want to contradict.

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Obviously, I don't have the same meta experience as you do (well, none of which I'm allowed to speak of), but you are the only one who has had experience with him out of all of us, as far as I know. I cannot truely take you at your word regarding the meta. Your three posts that I have not addressed do hold some water, but I interpreted them differently. I saw it as more unsure and testing waters more than anything else. I am slightly convinced, but I don't want him lynched just yet. With how fast votes are going for him, for my best interest in using time wisely, I will abstain for now.

And it came at a very telling time - just after a few had joined me in voting UCV (he was L-3 at the time), so as scum he would have a motive here in trying to stem the flow.

The fact he has also generally been lurking throughout but suddenly popped up to make that defence makes it stand out all the more.

FOS cytheflyguy

It's not my fault your faulty logic turned out to be correct. Your entire logic revolved around knowin UVC's meta, which isn't a good arguing point to convince other people. You only had four points that didn't include meta. Majority of that was tunneling. I didn't think it was right but didn't have the support for it.

And what do you mean it happened at a "telling time", I responded as fast as I could when I got off from school. You posted around 1 am my time. That's NAI. Just because you were right once doesn't mean you're right again.

[Impede]

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Sesq already remarked this in his own way, but most of the readslists you posted actually did have rationale associated with them, but they were in that person's ISO. It's not uncommon for someone to form opinions on events/posts as they transpire and then summarize them in a readslist at some point. I can't see how you'd be so detached from this game to actually hold this opinion...

This also aged poorly, as now that we know UCV is scum, it comes off as Alignment-Informed. "I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but

these should be addressed as well down the line

if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not." I could be wrong, but that bolded portion almost says "once we lynch UCV and he flips scum, we should also scrutinize these people".

On the other hand, it's kind of obvscum to come to the defense of a partner on D1, but Occam's Razor and all....
VOTE: cytheflyguy

[Luca Blight]

@Cy:

As I said previously, all you did was use half of one point to dismiss my entire case.

How is the timing NAI? UCV was being voted by multiple players and obviously whoever his buddies are will have been feeling the heat, so it's very likely someone would step in here to try and slow the wagon down.

It's all the more suspicious given how inactive you've been generally this game, while at times intentionally lurking, for you to suddenly pop up to hard-defend a null read of yours who turned out to be scum.

[cytheflyguy]

I realize I'm not the best when it comes to arguments, so I wouldn't try to wk scum pals willy-nilly? Regardless of alignment, I'd want to only defend people who I think deserve to be saved.

Also

Holy fucking shit.

I'm too tired to actually respond to what happened.

But holy shit.

This is manufactured.

Oh my god, I actually didn't expect UVC to flip scum. Chill.

P-Edit: Oh my god

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Sesq already remarked this in his own way, but most of the readslists you posted actually did have rationale associated with them, but they were in that person's ISO. It's not uncommon for someone to form opinions on events/posts as they transpire and then summarize them in a readslist at some point. I can't see how you'd be so detached from this game to actually hold this opinion...

This also aged poorly, as now that we know UCV is scum, it comes off as Alignment-Informed. "I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but

these should be addressed as well down the line

if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not." I could be wrong, but that bolded portion almost says "once we lynch UCV and he flips scum, we should also scrutinize these people".

On the other hand, it's kind of obvscum to come to the defense of a partner on D1, but Occam's Razor and all....
VOTE: cytheflyguy

I'm sorry but this is such a bad argument. Are you're saying I made a good point at a time but it's too good because it seems like I knew UVC's role? I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit. I was pointing out his hypocrisy as well. We could only judge UVC off of what we knew unless we did the meta ourselves. Luca never once gave quotes from other games with UVC. UVC did the same thing other people did with the four fucking posts Luca called UVC out on. But however they, for some unknown reason, did not appear on Luca's radar as hard. He was truly blinded by his tunnel. He was also correct. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

That being said, I had no real reasonings as to why UVC was town, so I never truly defended him, I only defended how stupid a read was that happened to be correct. If we go by his logic we should look at those slots as well.

[cytheflyguy]

@Cy:

As I said previously, all you did was use half of one point to dismiss my entire case.

How is the timing NAI? UCV was being voted by multiple players and obviously whoever his buddies are will have been feeling the heat, so it's very likely someone would step in here to try and slow the wagon down.

It's all the more suspicious given how inactive you've been generally this game, while at times intentionally lurking, for you to suddenly pop up to hard-defend a null read of yours who turned out to be scum.

It was NAI because I would have responded whenever I got out of class. I get out at 12:45 and I get to my dorm around 1. I responded like 10 minutes later. As soon as I saw it I didn't agree with it. Regardless of alignment, I would have said the exact same thing.

The second parts a more fair point, but I'm better at detecting illogical arguments then piecing together people's lies, which is something I'm improving on. My two biggest posts have been just about that.

Also, you're missing the piont when I talked about how unreliable your meta is? Like that was a huge part of my argument too that you keep on forgetting to address?

[Impede]

I'm sorry but this is such a bad argument. Are you're saying I made a good point at a time but it's too good because it seems like I knew UVC's role?

Definitely not saying you made a good point, so you can rest easy there.

[cytheflyguy]

I'm sorry but this is such a bad argument. Are you're saying I made a good point at a time but it's too good because it seems like I knew UVC's role?

Definitely not saying you made a good point, so you can rest easy there.

Thanks!

[Impede]

I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit. I was pointing out his hypocrisy as well. We could only judge UVC off of what we knew unless we did the meta ourselves. Luca never once gave quotes from other games with UVC. UVC did the same thing other people did with the four fucking posts Luca called UVC out on. But however they, for some unknown reason, did not appear on Luca's radar as hard. He was truly blinded by his tunnel. He was also correct. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

Who cares? He was right, and IMO he was right for the right reasons. Do you still question his rationale? You must see that it wasn't purely meta-based. There were a couple conclusions that were easier to come to based on meta (i.e: that it wasn't JUST UCV's personality that made him fence-sit and buddy).

Why are you getting so worked up? We're just following logical conclusions. No need to get all defensive. There's not even a wagon on you yet, and if there was, it would be reckless to pursue it overly quickly when we still have the entire day left. You have plenty of time to try to act town before L-1.

[cytheflyguy]

I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit. I was pointing out his hypocrisy as well. We could only judge UVC off of what we knew unless we did the meta ourselves. Luca never once gave quotes from other games with UVC. UVC did the same thing other people did with the four fucking posts Luca called UVC out on. But however they, for some unknown reason, did not appear on Luca's radar as hard. He was truly blinded by his tunnel. He was also correct. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

Who cares? He was right, and IMO he was right for the right reasons. Do you still question his rationale? You must see that it wasn't purely meta-based. There were a couple conclusions that were easier to come to based on meta (i.e: that it wasn't JUST UCV's personality that made him fence-sit and buddy).

Why are you getting so worked up? We're just following logical conclusions. No need to get all defensive. There's not even a wagon on you yet, and if there was, it would be reckless to pursue it overly quickly when we still have the entire day left. You have plenty of time to try to act town before L-1.

Oh yeah sorry I'm not actually angry/upset/etc. I am worked up. I don't see any of this as logical. I'm not playing the game for my sake, but for the sake of the town, yeah sure whatever I get lynched, but I don't like how it all is dependent on a read that's 3/4th meta without anything being backed up. If I or anyone acts scummy and they're correctly called out, then it's deserved. This is not correctly called out doe.

Also I stopped caring about acting town. I have a tendency of being scum read over town read (surprisingly with no previous lynches or being night killed), so my goal is to make sure the game isn't bullshit and not worrying about what is and isn't town like.

Also, I fully believe that his line of logic wasn't the best. Yeah, he came up with some good reasons, but there were reasons that applied to everyone.

I already talked about one, so I won't get into detail about that.

1 & 2) (AKA 129 189) It's day 1 and UVC just transferred in. Like I wouldn't expect him to come up with too many reads off the top of his head. I usually don't, so why would I expect him to do so when he just came in a couple of days prior. He came up with some shitty reads that are unexplained but so do a lot of people and that's seen as towny to other people when I call it out (These usually come from "big name" players, however, so people make the mistake of trusting them/dealing with the fact that they won't change) but regardless, I'm not sure how this example is scummy over others.

3) (AKA 159) I've seen this as a slight push to getting people's mind on the idea of it. To get people talking. People tend to respond more to questions than statements.

4) 444 UVC already expanded on this before he died. Like, yeah he's scum, but his reasoning isn't wrong imo.

If you really wanted to, you could have pressed anyone else, but it's the person you have the most experience meta-ing, which I feel clouds your judgment. So many other people, especially those you mentioned today, acted way scummier, but you chose someone who didn't draw too much attention to themselves because you knew their meta game. To me, it looked like you did a lot of reaching to prove why he was worse than other lynches.

[mozamis]

I didn't actually expect Luca to be so right.

and me

maybe cyfly. but impede, laser and cult need to be looked at.