Open 701: Pick Yer Power X/Y Game Over!

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: creature

That’s for leaving Everybody Edits

[mutantdevle]

How many EE players are there?

Rarely updated. ~20 to ~60 players in game at once usually. Forums are still thriving (and introduced me to mafia). Apparently there’s going to be another ownership transition in a few months time.

[mutantdevle]

Leaving here that I detected so far one post that looks very forced and one post that looks very genuine.

Free towncred if you can find each.

12 & 16?

Also I get the feeling this question is to just test for people who want to appear townie.

[mutantdevle]

How many EE players are there?

Rarely updated. ~20 to ~60 players in game at once usually. Forums are still thriving (and introduced me to mafia). Apparently there’s going to be another ownership transition in a few months time.

I mean in this game, or in this site.

To my knowledge I am the only player active on both forums. I know HeyNK has played here in the past but I haven’t seen him since I joined.

[mutantdevle]

12 & 16?

Which is genuine and which is forced?

Also I get the feeling this question is to just test for people who want to appear townie.

Close, but not that.

Damn you saw past my deliberate ambiguity :3

Tbh they both seem kinda forced to me but I’m willing to pass both off as RVS.

[mutantdevle]

Tbh there’s not really a lot that can be done about it now...

[mutantdevle]

I feel like you shouldn't have mentioned that tbh. Because now any person who chose the number 1 will know that someone who did not choose 7 has the PR they wanted if they don't have a PR themselves.

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

[mutantdevle]

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

VOTE: mutantdevle

???

It's a basic analysis that any decent scum would conclude. On the flipside, if Texcat survives the first 2 nights then that would be a major scum tell for me.

I'm not demanding she role claims, I'm just asking her if she is going to. I do not expect her to tell us what her role is if it gives absolutely no benefit to us. But it's a basic fact that Texcat is DEFINITELY a PR, the allignment of this however is unknown.

[mutantdevle]

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

VOTE: mutantdevle

???

It's a basic analysis that any decent scum would conclude. On the flipside, if Texcat survives the first 2 nights then that would be a major scum tell for me.

I'm not demanding she role claims, I'm just asking her if she is going to. I do not expect her to tell us what her role is if it gives absolutely no benefit to us. But it's a basic fact that Texcat is DEFINITELY a PR, the allignment of this however is unknown.

why would texcat tell us what role she chose? what possible benefit could we get out of that, especially on day one? even more, in 35 you're assuming that texcat is town.

the sooner we stop talking about the setup the better, and i'm pretty sure i've already found something.

There are a few roles that we may benefit from being aware exists, not many though. And if she is scum then her telling us her role is all the better.

Do you mind sharing what you have found, or is it something you would rather keep quiet for now?

[mutantdevle]

If she claimed to be the PGO then she could use the potential of arming herself night 1 as a way to stop the mafia killing her. Furthermore, she would also be able to warn off any protective roles from dying by protecting her.

A similar thing can be said about a commuter who could use the potential of using their ability as a way to trick the mafia into not risking their ability on them.

Speaking of protection, knowing her role would also allow protective roles to make a better judgment over whether it is worth saving her.

Additionally, what role you chose may be reflective of your alignment. Eg. a cop isn't very likely to be chosen by scum.

Finally, certain abilities could benefit us if we knew who the target was even if she dies. (though in most cases the mafia would be able to counter it if they knew who was being targetted).



So there are definitely a few scenarios in which knowing her role helps us; there are not many though. That is why I was asking IF she is going to roleclaim rather than directly asking her to role claim. If you genuinely believe I was expecting her to role claim then you are reading me wrong. If she had or does state that she has no plans to roleclaim then I would not and will not pursue the case any further. But the very notion that she does not want to roleclaim would reduce the chances that she is or isn't certain roles based on the impact that particular role would have by being exposed.

[mutantdevle]

Personally, If I was first in the draft list then I would be very aware of the fact I am the most likely candidate for being shot N1. As such, I would choose a role that could do the most damage to scum in a single night. If I was scum, the draft list would basically become a hit list but with a few edits based on how players play and sparing a few who I think are no threat to avoid exposing my team. If anyone high up on the draft list has chosen their role without considering that they are night kill bait then they are either scum themselves or have not thought about how the mechanics of a game such as this works.

Luckily for me, my placement in the list allowed me to choose my role more comfortably. Whether or not I received said role or what role I was after I am unwilling to disclose at this time.

[mutantdevle]

If I were a PGO I would want the town to know that so that no protective roles get themselves killed trying to save me; is the death a scum really worth the loss of 2 (or more) townies with at least one being a protective role? At the very least I'd probably fake claim as either PGO or commuter so that the scum are more sceptical of voting for me.

And at no point am I backtracking here. I was always going to back down on the prospect of a claim if you explained you had no desire to do so; I'm sorry if I didn't explicitly state that in my first message. Since you have now said you don't want to role claim, that's the end of it.

[mutantdevle]

Additionally, what role you chose may be reflective of your alignment. Eg. a cop isn't very likely to be chosen by scum.

Right, so lets

ALL

roleclaim then. I mean that will solve the whole game right?

You keep talking about scum being effected by the role being chosen first and that it could damage scum. Who's to say you didn't want to find out because you're scum and want to know if the kill would be successful tonight then?

Furthermore, why wouldn't mafia take cop if they had first choice? I mean I know it doesn't benefit them as much as town but if scum were to take roles such as cop early in the draft they could stop town from having them roles so roles are not AI at all.

I hadn't previously considered the possibility of scum taking roles to prevent town having them. Possibly because I'm someone who prefers to boost one's own team rather than subtracting from the other.

Plus, if it wasn't obvious by the mechanics, now it's blatantly obvious that he'll be protected tonight now that someone pointed out that he's a PR.

To some extent that is a good thing (assuming she is town). A protective role may no longer be required to prevent her death since the scum may assume she is protected anyway. I'd also argue that she is probably one of the more powerful PRs. I don't know about others, but I chose my role based on what I thought would have been taken. As a result, my role choice is neither the strongest role in the game nor what my first choice would be.

[mutantdevle]

If I were a PGO I would want the town to know that so that no protective roles get themselves killed trying to save me; is the death a scum really worth the loss of 2 (or more) townies with at least one being a protective role? At the very least I'd probably fake claim as either PGO or commuter so that the scum are more sceptical of voting for me.

And at no point am I backtracking here. I was always going to back down on the prospect of a claim if you explained you had no desire to do so; I'm sorry if I didn't explicitly state that in my first message. Since you have now said you don't want to role claim, that's the end of it.

"I AM NOT BACKTRACKING.... I'M JUST UHMMM.... EHHMM... FINISHED WITH THE CONVERSATION!!!!!1"

I had no intent to start much of a conversation. What I expected from that post was either "no I don't want to role claim" or "yes, I'm this role". The result of a yes may have led to a discussion of where to go from there but a no would have had no effect on how to play that day. I did not anticipate such a negative reaction to the prospect of a confirmed PR player revealing what that PR is if they themselves had deemed it something that was beneficial to the town.

[mutantdevle]

If I were a PGO I would want the town to know that so that no protective roles get themselves killed trying to save me; is the death a scum really worth the loss of 2 (or more) townies with at least one being a protective role? At the very least I'd probably fake claim as either PGO or commuter so that the scum are more sceptical of voting for me.

And at no point am I backtracking here. I was always going to back down on the prospect of a claim if you explained you had no desire to do so; I'm sorry if I didn't explicitly state that in my first message. Since you have now said you don't want to role claim, that's the end of it.

"I AM NOT BACKTRACKING.... I'M JUST UHMMM.... EHHMM... FINISHED WITH THE CONVERSATION!!!!!1"

I had no intent to start much of a conversation. What I expected from that post was either "no I don't want to role claim" or "yes, I'm this role". The result of a yes may have led to a discussion of where to go from there but a no would have had no effect on how to play that day. I did not anticipate such a negative reaction to the prospect of a confirmed PR player revealing what that PR is if they themselves had deemed it something that was beneficial to the town.

So are you going to roleclaim then?

Personally no. I know that stating my role will have no benefit to town. But there are a few roles that may have some weight on the town by being known even if they have not done anything with them yet.

what did you really expect to gain if texcat said that she was the cop or the doctor or something? like, i don't understand why you wanted to have this conversation right now at the beginning of the day and i don't understand what you thought we'd gain out of it anyways.

Cop or doctor isn't so much as what I was expecting. I was more interested to see if they were one of the roles that can actually do something about being targetted by scum. If they did role claim something like cop though (which I don't think any town player in their right mind would do) then I would consider them town.

[mutantdevle]

If they did role claim something like cop though

(which I don't think any town player in their right mind would do)

then

I would consider them town

.

?

Like I said. I was not after a cop claim. My point here is that anyone who claims to have the cop role I would consider town because of how useless the role is to scum. However, I would not consider role claiming as cop before you have any results as a good idea.

[mutantdevle]

certainly you realize that a scum redirector could just fakeclaim as cop, right?

Anyone can fake claim as anything. But if you can prove someone's role is cop but not what their alignment is then I'd be more inclined to believe a cop is town than scum.

[mutantdevle]

It looks like your interests are exactly the same as scums' interests.

No, I have a very different motive for wanting to know your role.

[mutantdevle]

certainly you realize that a scum redirector could just fakeclaim as cop, right?

Anyone can fake claim as anything. But if you can prove someone's role is cop but not what their alignment is then I'd be more inclined to believe a cop is town than scum.

I'm actually starting to think that you are just idiot town surely scum would have given up on this by now.

Yes I am idiot town if that’s what you consider me to be. But honestly, I’d argue that ignoring people’s concerns is scummier than justifying my opinion. I’ve expressed my interest in discussing the potential of a role claim no further and it is actually others that are continuing it; I am simply replacing. I genuinely believe there is things to be gained by day 1 role claims of players likely to receive a bullet. Obviously, others do not share that opinion.

That vote count reminds me:
UNVOTE:

[mutantdevle]

What I'm worried about mutantdevle is that he has no idea of how mafia works here. So I'm thinking his rolefishing is town motivated even if it's pretty bad.

I’m familiarising myself with how things work on this site. I’m yet to complete a game here but I am currently in 3 of them. On the EE forums however I have played at least 6 games and even hosted one. The mafia culture there is a lot different though. So basically I’m not completely inexperienced and I wouldn’t want anyone to discard me as that.

I’ve been known to have a more obscure way of thinking than most players and I usually play with a plan or strategy in mind. I’m at my best when I am able to plan out how I want days or nights to go. I genuinely thought that a role claim would be good for the town if her role was something that would put uncertainty into the mafia whilst benefiting the town. Obviously, no one agrees with that. I get the sense that others don’t see WIFOM as such a strategic tool.

[mutantdevle]

Even less beneficial is the way in which Mutant pointed out who should be the first NK, like are you kidding me?

I never said she

should

be the first NK. I was simply stating that, as the only player that is 100% definately a PR, that makes her the most likely candidate for the NK.

So you acknowledge that you are unwilling to disclose your role; why would you feel that Tex may have been willing to do so?

On the rare chance that she chose a role that would benifit us to be known (as I explained earlier). It could also serve as a nudge to her that she is the most likely person to be shot, if she had not previously considered that, and that she should do something about it if she can. Furthermore, it would have allowed her to comfortably fake claim a role that could potentially make the mafia consider not shooting her.

Leaving here that I detected so far one post that looks very forced and one post that looks very genuine.

Free towncred if you can find each.

12 & 16?

Also I get the feeling this question is to just test for people who want to appear townie.

why did you answer it, then?

I would like an answer to this as well.[/quote]
I apologise for not answering this sooner; I thought it was sarcasm. I answered partly because I felt like it and partly because it was Creature asking it. I would have assumed that my acknowledgment of the town bait intention would make my response a null tell.

In regards to Creature, if it wasn't already clear we both used to play an old multiplayer flash game called Everybody Edits (EE). In it's prime there would be 2000 players online at any one time. It has since fallen from grace due to bad ownership and is basically dead now. Creature quit the game a long time ago but I still play it. We didn't know each other in EE but the I think the shared sentiment of this being a game we both enjoyed has caused as to have a natural town view on each other; hence why he has been defending me. Well it's either that or Creature is scum counting on my mislynch to clear my name :P (I don't genuinly believe that. I am currently town reading him).

Oh and
VOTE: Mutantdevle

:(

[mutantdevle]

I don't like this. His join date is a month ago but he already said earlier in the thread that he has plenty of experience playing mafia, and in case that wasn't clear, he even refutes your noob claim later:

The problem is that EE forums mafia isn't a good experience. EE forums isn't a good mafia forums, I doubt it's even serious. So he should be a total newbie for serious mafia.

Personally, I have found it a good experience. My first game was on discord as well :3 As for seriousness we have our fair share of serious players (myself included) but the infrequent games and ~50% lurker count is what made me turn to this forum (I still play there though when games are available).

But just don't pass me off as a noob :P

[mutantdevle]

Obviously, I'm still adjusting though and hence I will make mistakes. Luckily, they are mainly post formatting mistakes such as 129 but this is the first proper mistake I have made so far on this site.

[mutantdevle]

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

In your games was it normal to ask someone to claim so early?

Not usually, no. It's only occurred once on that forum for me. It's just my approach to this format of game was that the players at the top of the draw list are more likely to be a PR and we know for certain the person at the very top would be a PR. Therefore I was giving them the opportunity to role claim IF they felt it could benefit the town. It looks a lot less dodgy if you roleclaim after being asked if you would rather than just straight up role claiming.

What is 'this' referring to?

'This' refers to the whole 'mistake' of asking for if texcat would consider role claiming. I myself do not view it as a mistake as such as in my opinion it would be a perfectly valid thing for texcat to do IF her role would benefit town members from knowing it. But I get the feeling that others would view it as a mistake and a bad idea to roleclaim regardless of her role. On my part, it's a mistake in that I mistakingly thought players would be more open to the POSSIBILITY of a roleclaim but alas most players have reacted as though I have demanded one.

@Creature/mutant: (to try to settle the 'idiot town/scum issue) in EE, is it common to setup speculate on the first pages?

I think Creature's and I's experiences of mafia on EE are going to be different. Creature hasn't played EE in a long time (as far as I am aware). I only started being involved with the EE forums long after Creature left and they had stopped playing mafia. However, earlier this year they revived the tradition of playing a Mafia game every month or so which was kicked off with a game on discord. Since then, they have all been forum games which would be considered blitz games on this site as each day is only 72 hours. There also isn't really many guidelines for the games we play. As such, most games consist of non-standard mechanics. So based on the fact that almost none of the games we play there are "normal" there tends to be a lot of speculation to the mechanics since most of them we have never played before. In the game I hosted I introduced quite a few new mechanics so there was definitely a lot of speculation there including on the first day. In particular, the game I hosted had 2 pairs of players with the same role which caused a mislynch as the town concluded they didn't think the setup would have 2 of the same role.

In short, if we weren't told the roles beforehand, yes. There was a lot of speculation.

Also @mutant: Why do you tr Creature besides sharing the same forums back then?

I had initially planned to ignore the fact that we have a shared sentiment when coming into this game. But since he has been town reading and actively defending me throughout the game, it makes it hard to consider he would be working against my alignment. As a side note, for those of you who think Creature might be scum, do you really think he would defend a town member who could be so easily scrutinised for role fishing? If you don't believe that I am town and he is actually scum trying to help out a noob then at least my mislynch would give Creature more of a town status.

While I am getting strong "idiot" vibes from mutantdevle, I'm not convinced that they are "village idiot" vibes. Being a VI could explain why he was rolefishing, but it does not explain why he was so quick to backtrack on his fishing. Many of his actions can be caused by either idiocy or mafianess, but his hastiness of backtracking cannot simply be explained by being a VI. If he was merely a VI who thought rolefishing was acceptable, then I'd think that his reaction to northside would be more along the lines of "WTF are you voting me?" rather than "Oh noes I'm being voted for rolefishing". It strongly suggests to me that he had a "guilty conscience" about it and therefore quickly realised what northside was on about.

I'm neither a VI nor am I scum. I do not accept I was role fishing I was simply asking a fish if they'd be willing to jump out of the water. I had no intention of throwing my hook into the water if she said no. A role claim could be tactical if it is done right, it is not always a bad thing to do.

On the rare chance that she chose a role that would benifit us to be known (as I explained earlier). It could also serve as a nudge to her that she is the most likely person to be shot, if she had not previously considered that, and that she should do something about it if she can. Furthermore, it would have allowed her to comfortably fake claim a role that could potentially make the mafia consider not shooting her.

Tell me, mutant, do you really believe that it would be a good idea to have Texcat fakeclaim, supposing Texcat were to be a townie?

Texcat had free choice of role. She had the freedom to choose absolutely any role on the list without worry that someone else may take the role. As a result, she could choose whichever role she thought was the strongest. Hence she potentially has the strongest and most valuable role in the game. Fake claiming as something either less useful or potentially damaging for the mafia if they were to target her could prevent them from doing so. Personally, I would consider the act of fake claiming as a little selfish since there are the dangers of someone CC and it would divert the kill to someone else but I put the option there for if she wanted to take it.

[mutantdevle]

In post 136, CityElectric wrote:
What is 'this' referring to?

'This' refers to the whole 'mistake' of asking for if texcat would consider role claiming. I myself do not view it as a mistake as such as in my opinion it would be a perfectly valid thing for texcat to do IF her role would benefit town members from knowing it. But I get the feeling that others would view it as a mistake and a bad idea to roleclaim regardless of her role. On my part, it's a mistake in that I mistakingly thought players would be more open to the POSSIBILITY of a roleclaim but alas most players have reacted as though I have demanded one.

Ah, right, your post was worded in such a way it could either refer to the formatting mistake or what you mention here, I wanted to clear that up.

Having said that, I have a huge problem with this. It looks like you consider your mistake to be 'I suggested something that made everyone think I'm scum' rather than 'I suggested something that I thought was a good idea, but actually was disadvantageous for town.'. That is not a town mindset.

I would vote you right here, right now, but if I counted correctly, that would put you at L-1 and I consider it to be way too early in the game to go there quite yet, as we're only on page 6, we have a little over 12 days left, and I've still got no solid reads on the majority of the player list, but consider my vote to be on you.

It’s not as simple as one or the other, it’s a mixture of the 2 + some more.

My interpretation of the game so far is that “I suggested something that I thought was a good idea which I still think would have been a good idea

depending on what textcat’s role actually is

but due to the extent of the backlash I’m probably going to be mislynched.”

If you do have to look back on my mislynch then I encourage y’all to try and decipher who on my wagon is genuinely voting for me because they think I am scum and who is just voting because I made myself an easy target.

Tbh I’ve been in this situation before. My obscure way of thinking has put me at L-1 in the past. In both situations the wagon broke down and I was considered one of the most townie players for the rest of the game (until I get shot that is). This would be the first time I’m misslynched on either forum I’ve played on. Even if I get lucky and my wagon breaks down again then I still don’t feel that would entirely be the best situation as I feel like most people have already made up their mind that I’m either scum or an idiot. In both cases my opinion would be ignored.

[mutantdevle]

Hold up, I'm writing a big ass post. Lynch me after that if you must.

[mutantdevle]

Either way, starting a conversation about her role is anti-town, to me. If she has the strongest and most valuable role in the game, why bring attention to it? You said it might benefit town to know what it was, but it also benefits scum. And then you say fake-claiming would be selfish, but by bringing up the topic of her claim (whether you think it was role-fishing or not is irrelevant), you are leading to one or the other of those eventualities. If she indicates she doesn't want to claim, you have still cast a spotlight on her, turning her into lynchbait if she is town, and thereby potentially losing one of our biggest assets.

I did not start a conversation about her role. This conversation was started by people forming a backlash against my question to textcat. I had no intention of starting a conversation. I simply wanted a yes or a no to my question.

Bringing attention to the fact she has a role that is her first choice has absolutely no effect. Any half decent scum could make that conclusion. The very nature of this game would suggest that logically the person at the top of the list is most likely to be targeted by the mafia first. The only exception would be if the mafia found someone else to be more of a threat based on what they say during D1.

Also literally no one is going to want to lynch her just because she doesn't want to role claim. The idea that she'd become lynch bait by not roleclaiming is ridiculous; especially since she has already said she is not going to role claim and no one has batted an eyelid over it. If she is an informative role then a role claim would eventually be necessary. Because it's either that or she takes what she has learnt to the grave. Any power role that can learn information has to role claim eventually. They just have to time it right and do it before they die. Personally, I'd argue that if you are the most likely to die night 1 then

depending on your role

it may be a good idea to roleclaim in some circumstances.

There is no situation in which her claim would be helpful to us.

Omg wow you're right! You have changed my opinion on this subject without even presenting a well thought out opinion on it and without even having looked into. Thank you so much! Jeez, guys sorry for being so wrong. /sarcasm. Viome is one of the players you should look at for not genuinly opposing me and being on the wagon just because.

For the record, I am willing to accept the idea that role claiming is wrong no matter the circumstance at this point in the game. But so far no one has been intent on presenting a case countering the points I put forth in examples I give where it may be a good idea nor has anyone made an effort into trying to change my opinion but rather jump straight into using what I say to present the case that I am scum.

Since no one seems to be able to comprehend the idea that some role claims may be a good idea. I've made this list of what I would do in Texcat's situation if I was asked

if

I was going to role claim in each role:

Spoiler: Roles and my theorised response

Disclaimer: I obviously wouldn't pick most of these roles If I was first in the draft.


Night 3 Vigilante: Personally I would not role claim. However, you could role claim in the hopes the scum leave you alone D1 and try to kill you D2 in order to stop your kill on D3. However, since the scum would likely try to kill you D2, that's when either a doctor or jailkeeper could target you to keep you safe.

Vengeful: I'd role claim. It would make neither town nor scum want to kill me due to the risk I could kill someone of their faction upon death. This is also a good role to fake claim for the very same reason.

1-Shot Vigilante: I'd role claim and make sure everyone knows who I am going to kill. This gives the player I target the chance to protect themself. If the person I try to kill does not die then we know that person was protected by someone or themselves. If we ever discover that the person I tried to kill is scum then we know that scum has a protective / roleblocking role. Alternatively, if we ever find the scum have a protective / roleblocking ability then they may be scum themselves. There are a lot of other examples of how we can learn things by knowing who a vig is going to kill. If you are probably going to die D1, you may as well tell us who you try to kill so we can learn things.

1-Shot PGO: Here you can either let the scum kill you and take one out with yourself OR you can claim to be PGO and gambit over whether or not you should still use your ability. The problem with staying quiet about being a PGO is that a protective role might try to protect you and as a result, you kill them too. That's why I'd probably role claim and gambit saving the ability for another night.

Cop: I wouldn't role claim.

Redirector: I wouldn't role claim.

1-Shot Commuter: I'd role claim. This way the protector roles know to protect someone else instead of me (eg. second in the draft list). You can then gambit whether to actually use the ability. Personally, I probably would.

1-Shot Watcher: I wouldn't role claim.

Doctor: I wouldn't role claim.

Roleblocker: I wouldn't role claim.

Universal Backup: I wouldn't role claim.

Role Cop: I wouldn't role claim.

Neighborizer: I wouldn't role claim.

Fruit Vendor: I'd role claim. If I am believed then the mafia wont kill me.

Jailkeeper: I wouldn't role claim.

Tracker: I wouldn't role claim.


So basically, some roles would be useful if they role claimed. Obviously not very many but some of the stronger roles would be helpful for us to know (depending on how much the player 1st in the draft order likes to gambit).

Time for a claim.

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.


Also, do you all really think that scum would make such a big slip as this so early in the game? I've never seen it but obviously nothing I say bears any weight. Also is is not just a little anti-town to end the day so quickly? CityElectric had the right idea of placing a hypothetical vote on me instead of a physical one. I don't mean to sound as though I'm stalling for time but surely that's what you should be doing? I'm okay with being lynched as to the rest of the town I have fucked up but I just can't help but feel the way in which I have been scummy is something you lynch when short for time. If I were in all your's situation I would have probably initially been on my wagon when the whole "GAH HE'S ROLEFISHING, MUST BE SCUM" thing started but I'm sure I would have unvoted upon explanation only to revote again if no better candidate was found. I have always valued a lynch over a no lynch so I am always one to vote on people I'm not even entirely sure are scum if time gets low. I even do that when it means lynching myself. If time gets low on D1 I can assure you I would help y'all to lynch me if time required but I just can't help but feel there are a lot of scum on my wagon when they are so prepared to end the day so early.


If you are going to hammer me anytime soon then hammer me now. I want to make sure I get some words in during twilight. I am about to start writing my post for after I am lynched on a document ready to paste in case I am lynched immediately (I will be refreshing the page often to find out). But either way, I ask that you make sure you are prepared to lynch so soon into day 1; especially since not everyone would have had time to see I am on L-1 and unvote if they felt it was too soon. In my opinion, it would be quite scummy to lynch me so soon on their behalf when they may not be so comfortable with doing so. But I guess y'all think that's me being hypocritical.

As for this whole misunderstanding in general just note that I can't redeem myself if you don't give me a chance to do so. But whatever.

Do what you must.

[mutantdevle]

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

I don’t want sympathy. Being hammered and role claiming has the same consequences. There is no way out for me or my role here.

[mutantdevle]

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

What would claiming actually acheive in this setup though? Claiming any role doesn't give answer to alignment.


I don't have much to add to the intent on mutant, I personally see him as idiot town but I can see why he would be perceived as scum. I wouldn't hammer him so early in D1 though we are then missing out on so much time to get information and draw scum out.

I agree with this post aside from the idiot town part. Being discarded as simply an idiot is why I don’t really care about living on if my opinions are just going to be dubbed as idiocy. I’m not an idiot; I’ve just made a mistake.

[mutantdevle]

You've implied you think those at the top of the draft order potentially have the most powerful roles, and that scum will nk accordingly. You are only 5th in the lynch order yet you say if you claimed you would definitely draw the nk? How does that work?

Is it not logical for scum to get rid of a role they know exists rather than risk going after a role that may or may not be more beneficial to get rid of? I think most people would play it safe. And I never said I would DEFINITELY get NK, I just think there would be a good chance for it.

Also can you give a specific claim tex could have made that would be beneficial to town?

I've already done this twice. The most recent and most detailed of which takes little effort to scroll up and find. I feel like you are skim reading at this point. In post 161 open the spoiler; it's roughly halfway up the post.

Why do you think you needed to prompt her to fakeclaim, and why did you think your prompt would inspire her to do so, if she hadnt6already thought of it herself?

I never said I was

prompting

her to do so. I just pointed out that she

could

do so.

- Ignore mutant and hunt scum elsewhere

I appreciate that you want to keep me alive but if you are going to ignore me hereafter then you may as well just lynch me now. I wouldn't want to live in a game where my opinion holds no value.

Good thing mutant at most just pointed what was obvious and texcat didn't even listen.

First of all, what do you mean by textcat didn't even listen? I don't recall her ever having anything to listen to. I asked her a question which requires an answer (which she gave and I am satisfied with). I wasn't telling her to do anything so listening doesn't come into this.

But other than that, exactly! I am just pointing out obvious facts that anyone could figure out, yet I am being scrutinised as though I am revealing secrets to the mafia. I find it hard to believe that anyone could look past the fact that there is

no doubt

that textcat is a power role. And since she had the first choice of role she would have chosen the role she believes is most powerful. Hence she automatically becomes the most likely target for the first night kill. And surely, when you take all that into account, it's not such a bad idea to comfortably give her the

option

to role claim if

she

thinks it will benefit her situation.

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

What would claiming actually acheive in this setup though? Claiming any role doesn't give answer to alignment.


I don't have much to add to the intent on mutant, I personally see him as idiot town but I can see why he would be perceived as scum. I wouldn't hammer him so early in D1 though we are then missing out on so much time to get information and draw scum out.

I agree with this post aside from the idiot town part. Being discarded as simply an idiot is why I don’t really care about living on if my opinions are just going to be dubbed as idiocy. I’m not an idiot; I’ve just made a mistake.

Wait a minute? Only that point you don't agree with? Following your own logic would suggest that you claiming might be worthwhile, you also said that people would have picked roles that would fit their allignment in your eyes so I assume you would have done something to that extent.

Whilst I don't agree claiming in this sense is the best thing to do surely

you

do?

No no no no no no no. No. Now either you have not been reading my points properly or you are purposely twisting them. I am not writing things in italics to be fancy. At no point have I EVER said you should ALWAYS role claim. The number of times I have been having to point out that the role claim is

conditional

is just getting frustrating now. The keyword in your sentence is that it MIGHT be worthwhile, not WILL be. I have also mentioned that the verdict if whether that roleclaim would be a good thing is down to the opinion of the role owner and them alone since they are the only one to know their role. I know my role and I know that reclaiming at this point in the game would definitely not be beneficial. I don't know textcat's role. I was offering her the opportunity to role claim without looking scummy about it if SHE thought it was beneficial. When she said no that was the end of it. I have made no attempt to make her role claim.

I

did not want her to roleclaim I was asking if

she

wants to roleclaim. Why do so many people struggle to understand that? And yes, I do think some roles are more likely to be chosen as either alignment than others. But I'm not trying to get town credit here; I am way past that stage. There are no benefits to my role being known and it would be selfish of me to reveal it. Besides, when did I ever say my role was strictly town specific?

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

This can be read as 'Hey, we want to shoot you, you're not a PGO or anything, are you?' it seems to me now to be a bit blatant if from scum. Maybe just moronic.

Thank you for being the first person to actually change my opinion on something. I had not previously considered that this question would be asked from a scum point of view. I guess the same can be said for other roles such as commuter as well. I still think it would be more beneficial for town than it would be for scum to know this though.

However, elemwnts of mutant's later defence worry me a bit.

I'd appreciate if you could point out specific parts to specific posts you refer to with this but without re-reading I'd say the general explanation of that is that as time goes on I'm becoming a little more frustrated and feeling a little more hopeless towards my situation.



I'm going to bed now which means all further replies will be on my phone (so I can't reply to individual points). I'm also probably going to be asleep in 1-2 hours. I'd prefer it if you'd lynch me when I am online so that I can post my final words and reads before the end of the twilight period. Please don't be scummy and hammer me whilst I am asleep :(

[mutantdevle]

I'd just like to isolate this part of the above post since it is my main justification for asking textcat if she wants to roleclaim (and what was going through my head when I asked the question):

"I find it hard to believe that anyone could look past the fact that there is

no doubt

that textcat is a power role. And since she had the first choice of role she would have chosen the role she believes is most powerful. Hence she automatically becomes the most likely target for the first night kill. And surely, when you take all that into account, it's not such a bad idea to comfortably give her the

option

to role claim if

she

thinks it will benefit her situation."

Whether or not you believe that way of thinking is helpful is down to your own opinion.

[mutantdevle]

Oh okay :3 I apologise for misinterpreting that.

[mutantdevle]

You’re late to pointing that out. You also clearly haven’t read the explanation for it. And you also haven’t considered how stupid of an idea that would be for scum to do in my situation.

[mutantdevle]

You’re late to pointing that out. You also clearly haven’t read the explanation for it. And you also haven’t considered how stupid of an idea that would be for scum to do in my situation.

Late to what? Mentioning that Creature is buddying you? Now I may be going senile but I can't remember anyone saying that he was buddying you before hand. I also don't see comparing site meta from here to site meta on EE as a valid reason to town read someone.

Both myself, MisaTange and, to some extent, Lalendra have addressed or hinted towards it. I was the main person who addressed it and gave an explanation for it before there was any real pressure over it. If you think the sentiment of playing with someone who shared the experience of a game that was a huge part of our internet childhood is not something we are at least going to have a small connection over then you underestimate sentiment. Sure we never knew each other back then but EE leaves a lasting effect on people that no one outside of it can specifically relate to. I wouldn't expect any non-EE players to understand.

why are you calling it a slip? the whole day you've been maintaining that what you've done isn't scummy at all and that it's just our interpretation of it. framing it as a slip implies that you recognize that it's scummy. to me, this suggests you don't actually believe what you're saying, but you recognize that backtracking at this point would be suicide. like, you can't have it both ways - you can't say that what you didn't wasn't scummy and also say that it was too scummy to be scum at the same time as a defense.

This point was made at the angle of y'all considering me to be scum. If

you

truly believe I am scum then what I have been referring to throughout as a mistake you consider a slip. If that is a the case, and you consider this to be a slip in the sense of role fishing, then surely you'd consider that blatant role fishing would be a stupid idea for scum to do. I don't consider my actions as a slip; they are a mistake. But 'too scummy to be scum' is a phrase that I've seen in a lot of games here and I don't get how no one would be applying that to my situation if they truly believe I am scum. Is it because I'm accepting what I've done as a mistake rather than rejecting what I've done altogether?

i really don't like this - you're trying to paint it that your defense is a perfect explanation of why what you've done is townie and everyone still on the wagon is just being irrational. like, what you did was scummy. what you're continuing to do is still scummy - nothing's changed.

Not everyone on the wagon is irrational. Like I say, I would probably have been on the wagon myself if a wagon built around someone else asking the same question I did. What I do find slightly irrational is how most people seem to be rejecting the whole logic behind me asking the question and, for some people, it's seeming a little forced to me. A lot of people are reacting to what I say as though I am exposing secrets to scum when all I am doing is pointing out the obvious. It's obvious that textcat is a PR. It's obvious that she would have the freedom to choose the role she deems to be the best. It's obvious that this would make her a target for the first night kill. Stating that isn't me being scummy it's me pointing out the obvious. Is it really so hard to consider that there are a select few roles that may give benefits to the town or the role owner if they were known and therefore by giving them the chance to roleclaim if they wanted to do so?


This insistence that myself and Creature are a scum team gives me the confidence that my misslynch would not be in vain as at least it would give him town credit.

[mutantdevle]

mutantdevle + Creature scumteam, anyone?

I think that it would be one or the other. Creature buddying with Mutant seems to be more along the lines of if Mutant flips town he can try claim some town cred from it.

You’re late to pointing that out. You also clearly haven’t read the explanation for it. And you also haven’t considered how stupid of an idea that would be for scum to do in my situation.

Late to what? Mentioning that Creature is buddying you? Now I may be going senile but I can't remember anyone saying that he was buddying you before hand. I also don't see comparing site meta from here to site meta on EE as a valid reason to town read someone.

Both myself, MisaTange and, to some extent, Lalendra have addressed or hinted towards it. I was the main person who addressed it and gave an explanation for it before there was any real pressure over it. If you think the sentiment of playing with someone who shared the experience of a game that was a huge part of our internet childhood is not something we are at least going to have a small connection over then you underestimate sentiment. Sure we never knew each other back then but EE leaves a lasting effect on people that no one outside of it can specifically relate to. I wouldn't expect any non-EE players to understand.

This insistence that myself and Creature are a scum team gives me the confidence that my misslynch would not be in vain as at least it would give him town credit.

I don't have time just now to look and see if people did imply Creature was buddying you as i'm on my lunch break i'll look later. How I seem to recall it is they were more asking for reasons on why he was scum reading you. If you did imply that Creature was buddying you though why are you town reading him as in the bolded part in that quote? If you thought he was buddying you surely he'd be pinging your scumdar no?

Are you seriously suggesting that because you and creature were both on EE you can confidently town read one another because of that? Newsflash, it's not and i'd rather you found real reasons to read people I mean it's not like we are in RVS anymore so that reason won't slide with me.

I was never scum reading him so I don’t know what you’re on about there.

And I have stated that I came into this hoping not to town read Creature because the read would be biased. But since he is the only person properly defending me I’m inclined to think he’s on my side. I’ve also stated I’m aware of the possibility he could be defending me to gain town credit when I flip town. But I’m not going to be around long enough to make that decision.

[mutantdevle]

Nvm I read that wrong. You actually stated he was scum reading me rather than I was scum reading him. But tbh I don’t recall him ever scum reading me either.

[mutantdevle]

What I don't understand is that Mutant keeps going back to "I was giving her the option to roleclaim." Everyone has the option to roleclaim at any point in the game, she didn't need your permission to do it. And you misunderstood what I said about her being lynchbait. I didn't say that a fakeclaim would make her lynchbait; I said that whether she fakeclaims or claims or doesn't claim, SHE IS NOW LYNCHBAIT purely because you brought attention to her. Whether or not scum would have drawn that conclusion on their own is irrelevant; you didn't need to point it out to them. At best it's anti-town.

Oh yes because randomly declaring your role with seemingly no motivation to do so would go down well wouldn't it? Considering how people have reacted to my train of thought I feel like I'd be one of the few people that would be accepting of someone doing that. By asking if she wants to role claim I am giving her the comfortability of doing so. It looks less scummy if you have the footing to role claim instead of doing it out of the blue. I have mentioned this at least twice in my posts.

And perhaps I am not familiar with the term lynchbait but I am under the impression someone who is lynchbait is bait to be lynched. Assuming I have that correct then I would fail to see how you think textcat could be lynchbait. Literally no one has expressed any intention of lynching her so the idea of bringing attention to her role would make her lynchbait is ridiculous as attention has been brought to her yet she is not at any risk of being lynched.

[mutantdevle]

I am under the impression someone who is lynchbait is bait to be lynched.

Genius found.

I don't get why you need to be sarcastic here other than to purposely be aggravating in a non-constructive way?

I didn't understand how what they were saying by describing textcat as lynchbait. So instead of assuming they were in the wrong, I took into consideration that perhaps the fault was on my part for not understanding the term. Over the last few weeks, I have been quickly learning a lot of new terms in mafia so it wouldn't be such a stretch to me if I simply misunderstood the term. Hence my post clarified that in case that was what was happening.

[mutantdevle]

I am under the impression someone who is lynchbait is bait to be lynched.

Genius found.

I don't get why you need to be sarcastic here other than to purposely be aggravating in a non-constructive way?

I didn't understand how what they were saying by describing textcat as lynchbait. So instead of assuming they were in the wrong, I took into consideration that perhaps the fault was on my part for not understanding the term. Over the last few weeks, I have been quickly learning a lot of new terms in mafia so it wouldn't be such a stretch to me if I simply misunderstood the term. Hence my post clarified that in case that was what was happening.

Think you need to grow some thicker skin.

Any other views on Creature yet Mutant?

What other reads do you have in the game so far?

I'm not offended by what you said, I just don't see why you needed to make that comment :3

I don't like the way in which he posts (several posts in a row that just consist of a sentence each) but I still think he is town based on his willingness to blindly defend me so early into my wagon.

I have reads written out in a rough draft of my post that I plan to make when I am lynched but I think they need some work. In general, I'm not willing to post my reads yet until either I'm forced to by being lynched or later during the day. (I've previously been scrutinised for posting reads too early in the game since joining this site).

[mutantdevle]

You seem to be really sitting on the fence on creature for me. You say you think he's town but you've also expressed concern he is buddying you.

If you are town then why won't you want to share your reads list? That sounds a pretty anti-town position to me. You also realise you can't comment when you've been lynched no? No-one will critiscise you for posting reads I mean i've on seperate occasions posted reads on you, Chip Butty and Creature. No one has thrown any shade at me for making reads as that is the game.[/quot
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on my Creature read. I'm not on the fence as I think he is town. It's just I acknowledge the possibility that he is scum looking for town credit from my mislynch; it's not something I feel is likely to be true though.

And I'm not happy with how my reads list looks yet. If you really want it then I will refine it for you and post it.

Not everyone on the wagon is irrational. Like I say, I would probably have been on the wagon myself if a wagon built around someone else asking the same question I did.

Not to be sarcastic, but if this is the case, why did you ask it? Did you only realize how scummy it was after everyone pointed it out?

I stand by my stance that there was nothing scummy about it (though I guess that's just the semantics of the question). As for realising I guess you could say I've since realised there are flaws in my statement. Eg. some aspects I have since reconsidered and the information/phrasing of the initial question could have used some work. I also feel that there is, in general, some town pressure on the idea of my wagon eg. if you don't think what I did was scummy then that makes you look scummy. I feel I would have fallen for that initial pressure and unvoted later.

I am under the impression someone who is lynchbait is bait to be lynched.

Genius found.

I don't get why you need to be sarcastic here other than to purposely be aggravating in a non-constructive way?

I didn't understand how what they were saying by describing textcat as lynchbait. So instead of assuming they were in the wrong, I took into consideration that perhaps the fault was on my part for not understanding the term. Over the last few weeks, I have been quickly learning a lot of new terms in mafia so it wouldn't be such a stretch to me if I simply misunderstood the term. Hence my post clarified that in case that was what was happening.

Was your post in which you said "lynchbait is bait to be lynched" not sarcastic? That was how I read it.
And I misspoke when I used that term I think. What I meant to say is that she is more likely to be either lynched or NK'd because of the attention brought to her. I still say that just because you felt it was "obvious" that her role was objectively the best because she had the opportunity to pick first doesn't necessitate you pointing that out. I'm also confused about your motivation for doing it in the sense that you mentioned that you only wanted a yes or no, not an actual claim, but on the other hand you also said that you were giving her an opening to claim comfortably. Which was it? Again, I feel that she could have easily claimed without having someone give her an opening, and that at best, asking her that question exposed her strategy quite early in the game.

I had no intention of being sarcastic in that post; I apologise if it came across that way. If I'm being sarcastic I usually do so in the form of an obvious joke rather than just being sassy.

I kind of understand what you mean by it making her more likely to be night killed but that would rely on all 3 of the scum being complete idiots. And I was not initially pointing it out in my original question. I only later pointed it out as justification for asking the question. As for the question itself if she had said yes obviously I would have wanted the role claim with it. A yes without a role claim would be in effect a no. By responding yes to the question that would have been me giving her the opening to claim comfortably. Her answer is no and I doubt that would change. Also, my question does not expose her strategy as she would always have had to do it somewhen within day 1. You make it sound like the strategy is a long-term thing. Originally, I did not think it would make a difference as to when during the day she'd hypothetically role claim but it has just occurred to me whilst writing this post that perhaps someone would wait to see if someone else role claims (probably by being put at L-1) before she felt it necessary to do so.

[mutantdevle]

I don't like this. You would've joined the wagon if it was on someone else even though you don't think it's scummy I am now again rethinking my thought that you are town and starting to lean more too scum on you again.

The original town impression that it is scummy would have made me think it is scummy If I was not the one to be asking the question. I'm not yet familiar with what this website generally agrees is scummy and what isn't. As I'm the one defending the question rather than viewing a defence on it. Had I been in the other situation I likely would have left the situation believing that asking IF someone wants to role claim is always scummy and the only time you should ever mention someone else role claiming is if they are at L-1. As I have had to defend the question my opinion has remained the same that the question is not scummy since I've been forced to think about it more but instead I see how the logic behind the question is flawed.

As town you should really always be refining your reads list. Doesn't stop you sharing it, how about even just letting us know the parts you're most confident of the way I see it the only thing you have committed too is that you think Creature is town.

I'm happy with that compromise.


I believe northsidegal is town. She started the wagon on me and I don't think scum would have done that. I feel scum are more likely to be in the middle and later half of the wagon.

Aster is a slight town read for me but not too strong. Their misinterpretation of my questions feels genuine rather than forced.

Viomi I am leaning scum on. Her position on my wagon is both late and sheeping. She adds absolutely nothing opinion wise to my wagon.

I don't like how quiet pisskop is despite having played this setup before. As far as I know, no one else has played this setup before (correct me if I am wrong) so this lack of contribution os worrying from someone who is supposed to be more experienced here.

I agree with how not knowing scum are in the draft makes him seem like scum playing dumb. I recommend looking more into him after I'm misslynched.

CityEletric hasn't said much but since she didn't want to put me to L-1 that makes me think town.

MisaTange also hasn't said much but her approach to my wagon of questioning rather than accusing me makes me believe she is also town.

Anyone I haven't mentioned yet you can assume I consider null.

[mutantdevle]

Oh, and if it wasn't clear, I think Mutant is newbtown too. Maybe could be Creature's scumpartner but that's about it.

The talk about pisskop reminds me how his response to "why did you post intent to hammer" pings me intensely btw, so here we go:

VOTE: pisskop

This is Viomi's second PYP according to 86, which brings me into my next point:

Why aren't you voting Viomi?

For some reason, I remembered the words said in 86 to be said by pisskop. That also answers why I have slightly different opinions on the 2 as I didn't realise Viomi had played the setup before as well. Also, I'm generally not voting yet as I do not feel I am in any position to vote and I feel like my votes would just be interpreted as trying to bring attention away from myself. I guess you could consider my hypothetical vote on Viomi though.

And Viomi how can you accuse me of being scummy for my reads being a single line when all of your posts are literally just single lines?

Viomi my problem with you is that your vote on me seems so forced. You have given little justification for why you are voting. Sure we can infer that you are voting for me for similar reasons that others are. But you have contributed nothing to that discussion and none of your posts are constructive. If you are going to vote for me, at least throw your own reasoning in rather than just stating I am scum. My reads are genuine from the point of view of being voted on. As wilky has said, my reads are not clutching at straws. Do you expect me to post paragraphs over why I feel a certain way about someone? Should I cite specific posts in my reads? Because I can if you want me to. But I can't help but notice you want me to put detail into my reads when you can't even be bothered to put detail in your single read on me.

[mutantdevle]

I find it funny that Creature keeps referring to mutant being newbtown when a) they've played on another site together and b) mutant has made it very clear that he is not new, that he has played before, and that he does not want to be discounted as a new player.

We never actually played with each other. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. It's just we both used to play this flash game: http://everybodyedits.com/ and hence we both used to use the forums. I didn't start using the forums regularly though until long after Creature left. When Creature was around they used to play mafia games in the 'forum games' section of the forum. Earlier this year, some of the people who used to play mafia with Creature decided to start up the semi-regular games again. When playing my first game, I read over a few of the old games so that I wasn't a complete idiot going into the game (and I wasn't, I literally caught a scum out on day 2 but no one listened to me until eventually they were outed for fake claiming which allowed us to figure out who their scum buddy was and win the game). When I joined this site, I recognised Creature in the Lobby chat as someone who both played and hosted games I had read over. I said a quick hello to him and we haven't talked since then until this game. So basically we don't really know each other that well but the shared sentiment of playing EE in the past as part of our internet childhood gives us something to connect over. I've tried not to let that sentiment cloud my judgement of him but I've probably failed at that. It's hard for me to recognise whether I truly do believe he is town or whether the EE sentiment makes me derp clear him.

[mutantdevle]

Also, I don't agree with Creature's attitude that exploring my wagon is a waste of time. I don't know about others, but it's certainly helped me to form some reads. Of course, my opinions on it would be stronger since I know I am town whereas the rest of you don't but you can still form opinions on who wants me lynched? Why do they want me lynched? Do they genuinely believe I'm scum? Do their views on me seem forced? Are they just on the wagon because it's easy to get on? Who didn't vote for me - why? These are the kinds of things you'd have to consider once I flip town in order to make sure the next lynch flips scum.

[mutantdevle]

mutantdevle, who are the scum on your wagon?

Viomi is the only one I truly think is scummy as I have already stated. IIRC, texcat didn't really give much of a reason for why she was voting for me as her vote just took place with her response to my question so I'd like her to explain that a bit more.

Similarly, Commknight didn't give an explanation with his vote either so I would also like him to clarify his position on me. I thought Commknight contributed more than he actually has but upon ISO'ing his posts I feel more confident that perhaps he is scum. He basically said he wanted to put me at L-1 and that if I already was on L-1 then he'd hammer. He then threatened that if I didn't claim then I'd be hammered. He never actually stated whether he believes I am scum and he has yet to give his opinion on me. So even though he has no opinion on me, he was prepared to hammer? That seems a little dodgy if you ask me. Basically, anyone that doesn't say WHY they are on my wagon should be looked into. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with naked voting and sheeping my wagon because it's too easy to get away with that.

I'm happy with Aster, northsidegal and Lalendra's positions on my wagon as at least they gave their opinions and genuine thoughts with their votes. I find it hard to believe any of their thoughts could be forced. But the 3 I have mentioned above definitely have some room to deny their thoughts on me since they haven't given them.

I also felt Chip Butty's position on my wagon was weak but I'm not so sure scum would have unvoted when I was at L-1.

[mutantdevle]

- Caught: as though I was trying to hide something which I have not.
- Refused to claim: I’m hoping you aren’t listening these in chronological order. Besides, I gave my reasons for not claiming. I don’t think anyone in my position would claim at this stage in the game.
- Backtracked: On what exactly? I got an answer to my question. My question was answered. I’m not exactly going to push for it to be answered again.

I still consider your position on my wagon as weak; but at least you have clarified that you consider me scum.

[mutantdevle]

So you’re just going to jump on the pisskop wagon with no explanation either?

I’m not asking you to bring anything new to the table, I’m asking you to outline the specifics for why you are voting. Just saying you “agree with otheres” isn’t good enough because we don’t know what it is specifically you agree with. If we reflect back on a wagon and go “X reason was a scummy reason to vote” you can just pretend you didn’t agree with that specific reason without any proof to suggest otherwise. You are purposely not stating your full opinion which means if we ask you about it later you are able to pretend your opinion was something different to try and make yourself seem more innocent. I’m not okay with that as I don’t think a townie would want to hide their opinion for nothing but their own gain.

[mutantdevle]

What about it?

[mutantdevle]

Are you trying to say that that’s the reason for voting? Because if so then clarity is helpful (keep that in mind for your future votes).

[mutantdevle]

• Would you be okay with pisskop getting policy lynched at this point in the game?

How about all of you answer the above question with something that contains a "yes" or a "no" and without beaing around the bush? Tomorrow I'll make a list of everyone's answers, everyone who has not answered, and everyone who is beating around the bush in their answer.

Lol hasn’t anyone told you that yes or no questions don’t work and make you look scummy?

As for policy lynching pisskop I’m inclined to say no. In the other forum I play mafia, almost half the players in those games are lurkers so I don’t see it as inherently scummy. I’d assume that lurking on this site is a far scummier thing to do but until I’ve established that for myself I’m not going to vote too much based on it.

The other main reason I’d have for voting him is simply that he isn’t me. That’s something I almost never vote on unless forced to do so instead of a no lynch. I had a scum lean on him earlier due to his forced position on my wagon. If you’re going to lynch him for something then lynch him for that. Though I guess most of you discard that due to thinking I’m scum.

To those of you voting pisskop but are not prepared to lynch him because “it’s only a pressure vote”. That’s not a pressure vote, that’s a sheep vote. What pressure are you exactly applying if your vote threat is empty? Do you really expect pisskop or anyone else to take your votes seriously if they are empty? I don’t really like how pisskop’s wagon came together to be honest. It feels more sheeped than mine did. There’s a fair few scummy sheep around that I encourage y’all to look into after you misslynch me.

[mutantdevle]

I think most people have completely forgotten the time role over mechanic of this game.

I’ve decided if either myself or pisskop reaches L-1 then I will hammer as to not unnecessarily waste time.

[mutantdevle]

I think most people have completely forgotten the time role over mechanic of this game.

I would be fine with lynching either Pisskop or mutant.

Why us 2? It would be nice to know your thoughts since you've basically said nothing all day. And what reason could you possibly have for wanting to vote pisskop? Is he too inactive for you?

Why are we even going after pisskop alone for inactivity? Assemblerotws has said way less than pisskop has that it is literally impossible to read. At least pisskop's shitty reactions to us calling on him to be more active gives us scummy reads.


I’ve decided if either myself or pisskop reaches L-1 then I will hammer as to not unnecessarily waste time.

This doesn't make sense at all if you are town. If you are town then you know 100% you are town, and commonsense says a warm town body is more valuable than the time that would be saved.

I will always value a lynch over a no lynch. If pressured by time the only 2 things that would prevent me from lynching literally anyone is either if they are strongly confirmed town or they claim to be a PR (that I believe is town sided). This includes myself. Due to how this game works, y'all may find yourself pressured for time in future days which could lead various bad things such as making rushed decisions, not getting someone's input in time, or even ending in a no lynch. I will not be selfish in refuses to make the day run on any longer than it needs to when doing so could cause those 3 formerly mentioned issues for the town.

At any rate, there is more information than just about Creature to be had in lynching mutant.

Like what?

For those of you who thought it was too early in the Day to lynch Mutant, can you tell us what you've learned by waiting?

We've learnt what people think of pisskop's behaviour. Had we lynched me there and then pisskop would still be under the radar. We've also learnt that Creature is defending purposely defending me without much justification. Additionally, we've learnt that some people think CommKnight is a little scummy but not enough to actually lynch her.

[mutantdevle]

Mutant I think we'll get more information on regarding his flip

You're not the only one that has said that but I fail to see what exactly any of you think you are going to learn. To be honest, what I think you are going to learn is:

Jack shit.

If you think you are going to learn anything about Creature then you are wrong. Regardless of what I flip, y'all are going to be wanting Creature's neck on the rope next. As Aster put it:

It also puts Creature in a no-win situation: if mutant is scum, Creature is buddying; if mutant is town, Creature is fishing for towncred.

Hence you will learn nothing about Creature since a lot of people will see him as scum anyway.


So what is it that you expect to learn from lynching me that you wouldn't learn from lynching pisskop, or anyone else? -This question applies to everyone that thinks my lynch would be informative.

[mutantdevle]

anyone else noticing how mutant only seems to appear or talk when the wagon is on him, but when the focus is shifted away he mysteriously disappears? like, where are the verbose walls for scumhunting rather than just trying to convince everyone that you weren't rolefishing?

I would accept this statement to be true if it was made before the wagon on me fell apart. But clearly, you have not read much of the second half of the day too well.

- I have actively participated in the discussion over what Creature's buddying attitude could mean.
- I have addressed points to and responded to points by wilky that were not necessarily related to my wagon.
214 - I gave my reads on most players. In this, I suggest Viomi is scum as well as address pisskop's lack of posting. Arguably, it was this post that started the whole discussion of pisskop - so how that isn't scum hunting I don't really understand.
- For the record, this statement was about ChipButty:

I agree with how not knowing scum are in the draft makes him seem like scum playing dumb. I recommend looking more into him after I'm misslynched

(I accidentally missed out his name specifically in my reads post.)
214 - Here I further back up my thoughts on Viomi and point out some of her hypocrisy.
258 - I directly call Viomi as scummy here. Surely anyone could make the conclusion I think of Viomi as scum at this point. Additionally, I make a case on CommKnight after re-reading his ISO and finding that I find him more scummy than I had previously. After this post, Creature asks if anyone would want to lynch CommKnight and since then there have been a few thoughts given about it. So technically, I started that as well. I also re-state my slight suspicion of ChipButty. Again, I fail to see how you would consider this post as not scum hunting.
272 - I criticise Viomi yet again.
- I have also been heavily involved with the discussion regarding pisskop. After all, I did start it.
- Finally, I consider myself to have said the most in this game aside from Wilky. Despite having more posts than me, I don't consider Creature to have said more than me since most of his posts are like quadruple 1 liners that really would have been better as 1 post. So how you can argue that I am not constantly active I don't really get earlier.


Perhaps you don't think I am scum hunting because my scum hunting has been drowned out by having to defend myself against all the accusations that I have received or that I haven't been putting my vote where my mouth is. If the latter then I believe I have stated why I'm not really voting much but I will expand on that:

I put A LOT of effort into every game I play. Regardless If I am alive or dead, I get heavily invested in the games I have signed up for. As a result, my usual* posts are often long and fairly detailed. These posts take me 5-30 minutes to make; this post falling into the latter bracket. My posts in which I make cases against people by directly calling them out as scum and encourage others to join me on their wagon often take an hour or so to write. As of yet, I have not created one of those posts in this game. Why? Well, what's the point? I feel like a lot of what I say simply gets discredited as either the opinion of a scum boi or the poor thoughts of a village idiot. Furthermore, in the case where people actually do at least listen to some of what I say, I guarantee had I made a strong post calling someone out as scum I would have several people accusing me of trying to divert attention away from my own wagon. Why should I spend my time aggressively scum hunting, in contrast to the passive scum hunting I have been doing, when barely anyone here values my opinion? Currently, I feel the only people that value what I have to say are Creature, wilky and Aster. If you were to look at my responses to those three in isolation to the rest of my posts then I'm sure you'd at least consider me a little more towny.

[mutantdevle]

To be honest, what I think you are going to learn is:

Jack shit.

Okay this made me lol.

Something worth keeping me around for?

No?

Okay.

I tried.

[mutantdevle]

not sure about for the game in general, but i have a theory as to why mutant's been playing the way he has - i'd still like him to claim to see if it holds any water.

You never told us your theory. Sure I never properly role claimed but rereading this peaked my interest. So if you want to theorise about something then now is the time to do so.

[mutantdevle]

@Mutant why aren't you voting Viomi then if that's your biggest scum reading or even doing much to build a case to make them lynchable?

Are you serious? You don’t have to scroll up far to see the answer to that (which is also the second time I’ve explained why I’m not voting).

[mutantdevle]

@Mutant why aren't you voting Viomi then if that's your biggest scum reading or even doing much to build a case to make them lynchable?

Are you serious? You don’t have to scroll up far to see the answer to that (which is also the second time I’ve explained why I’m not voting).

No I seen it I just don't think it answers the question much and all it says in my opinion is what is the point in you making cases if no one town reads you.

I never said that no one town reads me. Clearly Creature does and many people have said they think I am a village idiot. My point is that being read as scum or being passed off as a village idiot makes my opinion worthless to most people. Furthermore, why would I make cases on people when players would just use it against me by claiming I am drawing attention away from my wagon. I guarantee that had I made a strong case on someone then there would at least be 1 person using this reason to claim I am scum.

Another question would be why will anyone change their opinion of you if you won't make the effort to push your reads more and try change our opinion then?

I'll start trying to change people's opinions when people become willing to listen. I can't redeem myself if y'all don't let me. You are one of the few players who are willing to listen to me. If you don't believe me then just look at how Creature's opinions get shut down just because they think he might be scum for buddying me. Sure he doesn't go into much detail with his opinions, but considering people have a stronger scum read on me I doubt much of what I say would have any meaningful impact. I've been very vocal about what I think of people's actions and who I think is town vs who I think is scum, why do I need to push them? I'd argue that my passive scum hunting is far more contributory than most of the players here who are either sheeping on the easiest wagons without sharing their own thoughts or are just lurking and, for the most part, getting away with it.

Do any of you really care about me pushing my reads on anyone? Because none of you are coming across as though you do. To me, it feels more like you are just scrutinising my lack of voting as a way of reassuring yourselves that I am scum. You don't care if I actually push on someone, you just choose to point to my lack of hope as a way of making me look scummier in your own eyes.

If you really and truly want me to make pushes on people then take the advice I gave to Viomi about my reads:

Do you expect me to post paragraphs over why I feel a certain way about someone? Should I cite specific posts in my reads? Because I can if you want me to.

If you want me to, I will make several posts outlining my thoughts on individuals with quotes and detail to back up my thoughts. But I'm reasonably busy IRL so it may take me time (which I'm not so sure we have) to write the posts. So if you are willing to give me the time to make a push on players I think are scummy then just ask me to do so. But just don't make me waste an hour or two of my life writing long walls if you are not going to read them or you honestly don't give a fuck. If you doubt your opinion of me could possibly change no matter what I say then don't bloody ask me.

[mutantdevle]

Could you share reads without writing walls? I think we have plenty of time in the day, and I for one am curious as to what you think of the current gamestate. I would also, to your point, like to see more/indepth posts from Creature.

Certainly. I'm assuming you want it brief. I swear to god though if anyone asks me to elaborate on these reads then I'm just going to slam my face so hard into my desk that I break both my desk and my face.

Town:

Creature
northsidegal
Aster
wilky

Town lean:

textcat
Lalendra
CityElectric

Null:

MisaTange
Assemblerotws

Scum lean:

CommKnight
pisskop
Chip Butty

Scum:

Viomi

[mutantdevle]

Viomi seems alright I guess.

All right as in she is alright for a lynch target or her behaviour is alright by town standards?

[mutantdevle]

I'd also encourage people to check out CommKnight's meta. The basic conclusion that I'd draw from it is that he seems to be more active in most other games than he is in this one.

[mutantdevle]

not sure about for the game in general, but i have a theory as to why mutant's been playing the way he has - i'd still like him to claim to see if it holds any water.

You never told us your theory. Sure I never properly role claimed but rereading this peaked my interest. So if you want to theorise about something then now is the time to do so.

She probably didn't tell you her theory because you didn't claim so it's still just a theory.

UNVOTE:
North. Please share your theory.

lalendra is right - the theory is based on mutant claiming. if i share it beforehand then it won't mean anything, and in fact it would probably end up being a lot worse for town. i usually don't like making cryptic comments like that but i'm not sure what else to say.

Okay, but you had better answer it once I'm misslynched.

I'd also encourage people to check out CommKnight's meta. The basic conclusion that I'd draw from it is that he seems to be more active in most other games than he is in this one.

comm is v/la - he even announced so in-thread:

@Mod:

V/LA till December 7th. Next 3 days are going to be crazy with school projects and everyone wanting a piece of my time.

when you looked at his meta, did you notice that he was less active as scum as a tendency or are you just throwing shade?

He hasn't been V/LA this entire game though has he? (at least, not officially). This is what I am referring to. I am obviously not referring to the period of time since he has gone V/LA


In response to your question, the answer is neither. From what I read, CommKnight usually posts far more than he has been in this game. Admittedly, I did not look at what role she was for each of these games but I just find it generally odd that he would be less active for the entirety of this one than he would usually. Of course, a simple explanation of this could be that CommKnight has been busier leading up to his V/LA but I still don't see how that would explain his more recent meta (again, before he went V/LA). As for throwing shade, I had no intention to do so nor do I see how I have done so. Nothing I said in my one-liner is neither shady not witty. I was simply building off of how Creature has also looked into his meta.

[mutantdevle]

Oh nice, nobody even dared to look at my reasoning for CommKnight.

Answer this please:

Viomi seems alright I guess.

All right as in she is alright for a lynch target or her behaviour is alright by town standards?

[mutantdevle]

You haven't been scum hunting, you've been asking me silly questions and making daft assumptions and then projecting them on me.

Also, this "Look at me, I'm town!" post is just blatantly scum..

How's everyone feeling about that mutant lynch now? Still letting his scumbuddy creature convince you?

So your basis that I am not scum hunting is your belief that I am wrong about you? That completely ignores my thoughts on others as scum or town. But hey, I guess you haven't been scum hunting either since your reads on me are wrong. The main thing I have been asking you is to clarify your position on various things IN YOUR OWN WORDS. I've made it clear that I don't think sheeping on other's opinions is something I consider valid.

The post was not a "look at me, I'm town" post, it was "you're wrong about me not scum hunting" post.

The wagon on mutant built pretty quickly, what information do you hope to gain from it if he is town?

I don't play the game like that, I like to lynch scum.

Then why don't you lynch yourself?

I'm also starting to notice that mutant isn't pushing for a Viomi lynch. Like, after his wagon it would've been good to hard push Viomi. And it's probably more of a play style thing but I personally would push my strongest scumread now because I ain't convincing people away from my wagon otherwise.

Speaking of pisskop: @Viomi: What do you think of Creature calling pisskop's actions as 'useless playstyle, but town'?

(Also, lets count how many pages until pisskop catches up)

For the last time, read my damn posts. I am not repeating why I am not voting because I have explained this several times already. And what do you mean by "after his wagon"? My wagon never ended. It died down at one point but it always existed. I have yet to be in a comfortable position where I could push my direct opinions to the front point of the town since that first vote was placed on me.



Also in before people now claim pisskop is also a scum buddy since he is defending my point on asking if textcat wants to role claim.

[mutantdevle]

Re: 416: When are you gonna be 'comfortable pushing your direct opinions'? When we wagoned PK (and him not really responding; until now that is), it would've been good to push your scumread.

I'll be comfortable to do so if I survive until day 2. And I don't think that would have been a good idea to push because, like I've said before, I was almost guaranteed to receive shit for trying to divert attention away from myself. But even then, that ignores my point that several players would have passed my opinions off as scum or VI; thought to be fair that train of thought seems to be dying now.

[mutantdevle]

Also in before people now claim pisskop is also a scum buddy since he is defending my point on asking if textcat wants to role claim.

Wait, what? Where is he doing that?

Post 415

ugh why are qe playing with teenagers again?

'you'
'no, you'
'*gasp* oh my gus you guys'
'like, youre being a total bitchface right now girl'
'i know right *giggle*'

You clearly haven't been a teenager in a really long time; literally none of us talk like that.

[mutantdevle]

I get the feeling we aren't going to get a lynch in time :/

I'll happily hammer anyone but I'd prefer it to be in the pool of Viomi, CommKnight, Chip Butty and (to some extent) pisskop.

I doubt the first 3 are happening today but I stick by what I said about if I am going to vote today then it's because my vote will be the hammer.

[mutantdevle]

The words that come to mind when I think of mutant are "hapless" and "lynchbait". I guess meta might provide a clue.

You're more than welcome to look at my meta but you won't find much on this site since my only meta her is 2 games that haven't finished yet. If looking for examples of me as scum, my meta on the EE forums won't be too good either since I only have 2 scum games that are poor examples. The reason they are bad examples is because in my first scum game EVERYONE was scum just in 4 different factions and in my second scum game the game ended because the mod posted the scum chat and scum names in the role card of one of the other scum that were mod killed :/

If you want me to link you my meta from that site though then feel free to ask.

[mutantdevle]

@mod, Comm is no longer V/LA since Dec 7th was yesterday :3

[mutantdevle]

Ehh I was going to wait a bit for others to see that pisskop is at L-1 with my intent to hammer in case anyone isn't so sure about the lynch but fuck it. If you weren't sure then you shouldn't have voted in the first place. Besides, I doubt pisskop is going to be useful based on the way he is posting and since he is so low on the draft list there is basically no risk of losing a PR here.

So without further ado:



VOTE: pisskop

[mutantdevle]

MisaTange was 6th in the draft list so the odds of her being a PR were somewhat moderate. I wonder why the scum chose to kill so far down the list?

Additionally her death message states she was poisoned. Does that mean anything or is it trivial? My experience of poison is that you poison someone in one night and they die on another; that obviously isn’t the case here. So if anyone knows how poisoning would fit in with the potential roles in this game then I’d appreciate the clarification. For now though, I’m just going to assume that Elmo is just being creative with the death messages.

RIP MisaTange. I will go through your posts tomorrow to see who’d want you dead and carry forth any of your opinions if I feel they are worth mentioning.

[mutantdevle]

I agree that the mid draft list kill was probably an attempt to pick off a protective role. @Viomi, is this something that you've seen happen before?

I might look into other PYP games later to see if I can find a pattern with how scum usually kills in regards to the draft list.

Also @Creature, the scum on pisskop's wagon would probably be one (or some) of the players who were willing to flip-flop between my wagon and his.

[mutantdevle]

Also I presume he's omgusing chip bc of the same reasons he voted me. Lurker, noinfo, nopr slot.

MisaTange soft claims having no PR here :3


In posts 449,450 and 455 she makes a small case on Aster as well as voting for them. If Aster is scum then perhaps their thinking is since it's so early in the game and MisaTange's case was so small then it would not bring much heat to kill her off so early if she was on the right tracks.

Actually Creature, I'm placing bets on a noob scum-team right now.

Why do you think that?

You never answered this @CommKnight. Any particular reason why? If not, then I'd also like you to answer this.

PK is antitown but not scum.

She correctly identified him as anit-town rather than scum.


That's what I found worth mentioning from MisaTange's ISO. Other than that, her only other real opinion was that she strongly believed that myself and Creature are a scum team.

[mutantdevle]

We could like focus on getting scum.

I was under the impression that basically everything that has been said so far this day was doing exactly that. If we can theorise different reasons why MisaTange specifically was killed then maybe we can figure out who'd have the best motive to want her dead. From there, we can apply pressure to those individuals to see how they respond, even if we don't truly believe in the situations we are accusing them of.

I'm not content with leaving MisaTange's death to simply just "they were trying to pick off a protective role" and moving on. If they were truly killing based on who was in the 'middle' of the draft list, then why did they kill MisaTange in particular over the other players in that middle sort of area?

[mutantdevle]

So I just went through different PYP games to see if I could find which one Viomi was in and I couldn't find any. What surprised me more, however, was that I found Creature's name on a player list.

@Creature, how come you haven't told us you've played one of these games before?

[mutantdevle]

Creature, you defending me makes more sense now that I've read some of your previous game in this setup.

Creature was shot night 3 in his last game because he was second in the draft list and hence most likely to be a PR. So it makes sense that he would understand my logic.

[mutantdevle]

I did a search for 'pick your power' games on this forum which gave the following 8 results other than this game:


I have analysed each of these games and recorded data and statistics regarding the draft order, role choices and night kills. I'm not going to be releasing this information as I think it would be a bad idea for scum to know it because, if they did, then they would be able to make themselves less predictable. Besides, I doubt very many of you would take statistics as a reason to vote but it WILL be something that influences my opinion. Based on these statistics, I have a FoS on people that I won't name yet. However, the data backs up my reads on a certain individual who I also will not name yet.

I won't be using this data as the basis of my reads but rather I will be using them to back my reads up. As a side note for the future, if you don't believe statistics and data can be used to predict how players are going to act or be as scum or town, then don't ask me to clarify any statements about it in the future if I ever say things like "statistically X is scum". Because if you think those kinds of reasons are invalid then just ignore my statements involving them instead of asking me to try and convince you of my opinion involving them.

[mutantdevle]

Yeah, I'm way to addicted to this game :3

And also there are some things that throw the statistics a bit. Obviously, I doubt I have stats from every game on this site recorded. But in general, the more PYP games there are, the more accurate these statistics will be. I reckon I can probably find some more of the game on the wiki and incorporate that into the data if I get time.

Replacements don't really affect much, to be honest. I guess the sudden change in opinions may affect the specific game but I don't think it affects the game much. The biggest anomaly in my data is that I couldn't find the scum chat for one of the games. Hence I can't record the reason why a night kill was made. There's also times when there is one scum left so I stop getting an explanation for kills. Finally, some games don't list the roles that players chose. So if they didn't die, I don't know. Despite all this, it's not really something that I'm going to factor into the data. I feel like the data will be too inaccurate anyway to factor in things like that. Like I say, I don't plan to base my reads and actions directly on the data, more so to back up my thoughts or guide me. Eg. convert scum leans to scum reads and town leans to town reads. It could also be useful for deciding who to use a night action on if stuck between 1 person or another. Also, if someone role claims as a statistically scummy role, and data points to other aspects of their play being scummy, then that may also influence a read.

I've never actually gone into meta to such an extent as this before. I suppose the difference here though is that I can use this data for any future games of this setup I play (it could also help me choose a draft number or role, kek).

[mutantdevle]

The game I was in was called pick your poison, I'm pretty sure.

Pick your poison is a completely different setup...

[mutantdevle]

It concerns me how quickly lynches come together in this town. All it seems to take is a small push and then the sheep come flooding in. May I ask to everyone voting Viomi, where were you yesterday when concerns with Viomi were originally raised? You had the perfect opportunity to express your distrust of her then yet it is now that everyone is flocking on to her.

No one seems to even be giving much development on why they think Viomi is scum. Almost everyone is literally like "yeah I think she is scum too because of X". They are stating a reason rather than explaining it. This makes me think very little thought has gone into the action of voting for her. When I see how quickly the wagons on me, Pisskop and Viomi are coming together it just screams "NO!" at me because it's either a sign that scum are influencing the wagon or the town are just easily manipulatable.

I do personally think that Viomi is a bit scummy but all this sheeping is making me think something funny is going on; I'd prefer people would contribute to my reads rather than follow them. Like seriously everyone, can we stop this mindless sheeping that's going on and start having people explain their opinions? Because sooner or later the scum are going to use that to easily get one over on us.

[mutantdevle]

A quick update on the data and stats I recorded in regards to the number 1.

I have data from 8/10 of the completed pick your power games on this forums (wiki says 11 games but 1 was abandoned). Of those 8 games, in 4 of them, scum chose the number 1. Since we have 2 players left who chose 1, that's technically a 1 in 4 chance that Viomi is scum if we are going on the number she chose alone.

As a counter to that though, in those 8 games, scum was never at the bottom of the draft order.

Just thought those 2 things might be relevant at this time since one of the reasons Viomi is being voted for was because she voted the number 1.

[mutantdevle]

Whether or not you think Viomi is scum, I don't think now is a good time to lynch her. I'd like to see Comm, Chip, Aster and maybe Creature explored at some point. Not because I think they are all scummy, but because I think it would be healthy for the town to do so and hopefully it will discourage sheeping.

[mutantdevle]

She chose the number 1*, not voted.

[mutantdevle]

She chose the number 1*, not voted.

I mean, I picked #1 in my last PYP and was first in the draft.. also I flipped town so

You said you had a different name back then, was it pieguyn?

[mutantdevle]

Can you give us the tl;dr? Who is scum? That's what matters. It's exactly this kind of peripheral waffle that made me suspect you earlier.

Just read the conclusion...


I also think it’s dangerous when folks are unprepared to read a lot since it means they miss out on information and become ill informed. You’re the type of player we constantly have to waste time repeating ourselves to and explain things over and over again. Honestly, it’s a pain in the ass.

[mutantdevle]

Sure, I'm aways protecting my buddies...

Nice try Scum.

Are you actually interpreting that post literally?

[mutantdevle]

@Lalendra

Not a fan really of the way Viomi is interacting. Just really seems like they're not putting a lot of critical thought into the process. I'm not so sure I buy scum!creature just yet, the failure to tell us whether he played a PYP in the past doesn't seem inherently scummy to me. Mutant is also becoming less scummy as time goes on; not necessarily that the rolefishing seems less scummy to me, moreso that nothing since then has pinged me as scummy and I'm no longer convinced that the question in and of itself was scummy. I guess Mutant is null for now. I would definitely like to hear more from Comm and NSG but not sure I'm willing to call them "suspicious" just yet.

VOTE: viomi

I see this vote as genuine but I'd like more of an explanation. Could you give some examples of where Viomi isn't putting any critical thought into the way she is interacting?

[mutantdevle]

@texcat

VOTE: Viomi

There's something wrong with the disparity between not knowing that scum could talk before the draft yesterday, and today creating a detailed, point by point list based mostly on the setup about why Misa was NK'd.

You have taken such a strong stance on Viomi's wagon. I find it hard to believe that this would be the sole reason for that. Do you have any other reasons you are voting for Viomi? If so, explain them.

I also fail to see how pre-game scum chat correlates to theorising about why Misa was NK'd. In Viomi's list, she gives several possibilities as to why Misa could have been shot. A flaw she makes though is that she assumes the scum are trying to kill the doctor. Additionally, I do not see how this list is detailed. It is a simple list consisting of 1 or 2 short sentences for each point. There are plenty of reasons why you could consider Viomi as scum but you choose to place your vote based on one of her most townie posts? This honestly just feels forced to me and your position on this wagon is weak.

[mutantdevle]

@wilky

I don't like Viomi buddying Chip even more obvious than Creature buddying Mutant.

VOTE: Viomi

Again, if this is your only reason why you think Viomi is scum then your stance here is almost as pathetic as texcat's (whose reasons are that Viomi made a list of reasons why Misa was killed and that she chose the number 1). Viomi made 3 posts that buddied Chip; I haven't counted how many posts Creature has made buddying me but I can tell you it's a lot more than that and has lasted a lot longer as well. So how the fuck you draw the conclusion that Viomi is buddying Chip more obviously than Creature is buddying me I do not know. This reason also feels flawed. Is this really the reason you are voting viomi? And what do you make of the recent hostile exchange between the 2 of them?

[mutantdevle]

@CommKnight

The question is: Chip or City. Which one of those two is scum?

My guess would be Chip.

But I think the Viomi lynch is better. I think there is a scum among the people who picked 1, and I think that's much more likely than among the people who picked 5. The question should be: Viomi or Aster. And the answer is Viomi.

Honestly, I can roll with this, but I have high suspicion one of the 5's is scum.

VOTE: Viomi - A 1, buddying, gunning for the PRs by aiming higher than Misa. They can die.

So your reasons are she chose the number 1, she was buddying Chip and that she is wanting us to lynch high up the draft list? Okay, at least you have given more thought into why you are voting Viomi and hence your stance feels genuine. But, I would have prefered more of an explanation rather than just the sheep thoughts. I criticised Chip over his criticism of the buddying because he made it out to be worse than what Creature did. In contrast, you seem to just oppose random buddying in general which is why I think you adopting that stance is genuine. I'd say that wanting to lynch Viomi because she is a threat to the PRs is understandable. I think you are aware that all those PRs probably aren't town but you give the impression that you don't think it's worth lynching in that area because you believe a mislynch of a town PR is too damaging to risk blindly going after scum PRs. That's fair enough in my opinion. So overall, despite my suspicion of you, I take your position on Viomi as genuine. But if you do flip scum, then at least we know there is another scum above you :3 (in before this gets me night killed).

[mutantdevle]

@Assemblerotws

VOTE: Viomi
Despite their claims, they're actually looking less knowledgeable about Pick Your Power vs. Pick Your Poison than they did at the start.

So you're voting for them because they either don't know the difference between 2 different setups and because they are not a pro at the setup after playing it once before? Basically, you're voting for her because she has the same knowledge of this setup going into it as any one of us playing for the first time. Get. The fuck. Out.

You have no reason to vote for Viomi at all. What the hell are you doing with your

life

vote?

[mutantdevle]

@Chip Butty

Oh, the old "It was just a reaction test". How fresh and original.

VOTE: Viomi

L-2, I believe...

So... what are your reasons for voting Viomi? Becuase even in your other posts you have yet to explain why you are voting Viomi. She has asked you to explain your vote several times but you have always responded with one of 2 excuses that either Viomi hasn't explained her vote on you and that you don't need to do the talking because you are not on L-1. You are going out of your way to avoid giving a reason as to why you are voting Viomi and it's the scummiest shit I have seen on this site so far.

So you have 3 options Chip:
1: Explain why you are voting Viomi.
2: Accept that your vote on Viomi is nothing but OMGUS and hence unvote.
3: Admit you are scum.

Oh but wait, you're not at L-1! Surely that means you don't have to explain any of your actions right? Well, let's see what we can do about that...

VOTE: Chip Butty

[mutantdevle]

its furthered my suspicions that my other scum read has jumped straight in to defend him aswell.

Just to clarify, who is your 'other scum read' and who is 'him'?

@Mutant why the sudden change of heart on Viomi??

There's been no change of heart; I still think Viomi is scummy. It's just I'm not so sure she is scum. The speed at which this wagon came together worries me the most and there is no way that scum are not on it. Most people that have voted for Viomi have simply given their own reasons in a mostly sheep-like way without justifying said reasons. Best case scenario is that the scum on the wagon are bussing a soon to be dead teammate but I am not comfortable with lynching Viomi whilst the shitty reasons people are voting are unexplored. Once I am satisfied that all votes on Viomi are genuine, I will be prepared to lynch a player I view as scummy. Another thing that is holding me back from hammering is that I am further analysing past games to include the ones I missed and add them to a spreadsheet instead of simply typed out in a word document so that I can read my information easier.

[mutantdevle]

Like, seriously. If you're so intent on me being scum, make a fucking case! Give reasons for me to reply to, so we can generate information and see relationships between players so town can analyze them in the future. Stop this anti-town caseless wagoning and stop playing into scum's hands.

@Mutant - These posts are the ones I disliked.

271 - Moving vote from Mutant to PK while still saying Mutant was her top SR.
352 - Naked votes Aster, after Aster unvoted PK and voted Mutant - who was still Viomi's top SR.
398 - Says that Mutant's lynch would give us the most info and she's "pretty sure" he's scum - while voting Aster.
517 - 120ish posts later, "Aster is town", votes PK again. Doesn't explain why attitude on Aster shifted.
577 - Says Chip Butty is "definitely town", but doesn't say why.
590 - Naked votes Northside, quoting a post from Aster which says that both Northside and Comm are suspicious. Doesn't explain why she chose North over Comm, or why she is suddenly listening to the reasoning of someone she was previously voting for.

There's a lot of jumping around, very little explanation or clarity, and direct conflict between posts (and sometimes within the same post). I stopped reading the ISO after 590 because frankly I don't feel like dealing with the toxicity.

If you don't want to read a player's posts but want to continue voting them, please do me a favor:
Go tell the list mods you are not playing to win and are therefore screwing over the rest of us. Enjoy your ban and go play something else.

Unless you're scum, that is. In which case, good job.

Erm... Viomi... is this not what you wanted? Lalendra outlines several points as to why you are scummy here. You wanted something to reply to, well reply to these points. Personally, agree that these do look scummy. So you would do well to respond to each point. And don't give the "you're not reading my posts" bs; if you think you have already refuted a point, then quote/link the post where you do so.

[mutantdevle]

@Chip Butty

Oh, the old "It was just a reaction test". How fresh and original.

VOTE: Viomi

L-2, I believe...

So... what are your reasons for voting Viomi? Becuase even in your other posts you have yet to explain why you are voting Viomi. She has asked you to explain your vote several times but you have always responded with one of 2 excuses that either Viomi hasn't explained her vote on you and that you don't need to do the talking because you are not on L-1. You are going out of your way to avoid giving a reason as to why you are voting Viomi and it's the scummiest shit I have seen on this site so far.

So you have 3 options Chip:
1: Explain why you are voting Viomi.
2: Accept that your vote on Viomi is nothing but OMGUS and hence unvote.
3: Admit you are scum.

Oh but wait, you're not at L-1! Surely that means you don't have to explain any of your actions right? Well, let's see what we can do about that...

VOTE: Chip Butty

You have made 5 posts since I wrote this Chip. Why are you avoiding answering me?

[mutantdevle]

Yeah, the lack of counterwagons is worrying me.

I'm also worried about the number of players not voting.

I wonder how many of them are looking for excuses to vote someone other than Viomi.

Your lack of posting is NAI, I get that and it's not something I would lynch you for. But if you are going to insist on playing a game like this without posting much, then can you at least make the few posts you do have count towards something and actually be helpful? Because currently, you are basically saying fuck all.

@Assemblerotws

VOTE: Viomi
Despite their claims, they're actually looking less knowledgeable about Pick Your Power vs. Pick Your Poison than they did at the start.

So you're voting for them because they either don't know the difference between 2 different setups and because they are not a pro at the setup after playing it once before? Basically, you're voting for her because she has the same knowledge of this setup going into it as any one of us playing for the first time. Get. The fuck. Out.

You have no reason to vote for Viomi at all. What the hell are you doing with your

life

vote?

Please respond to this.

[mutantdevle]

Yes. Although I am a little concerned that scum haven't tried to build a counterwagon.

Yeah, the lack of counterwagons is worrying me.

The lack of counter wagon is the only concerning thing to me. Viomi has been scummy and scum might be afraid of being called out if Viomi flips red.

Since when was there an echo around here? This town is so sheepy...

Perhaps this is me being used to a different site meta but I don't really see what's so concerning about a lack of a counter wagon. Is there usually always supposed to be one round these parts? Additionally, perhaps a lack of counter wagon could suggest that the scum are on Viomi's wagon? Other than that I'd give the explanation that most people here do actually think Viomi is scummy but are just unprepared to lynch.

[mutantdevle]

Fun fact: There are five players part of pisskop mislynch wagon on Viomi rn.

Compare that to my wagon when it was at its peak and then we'd have a list of the carefree sheepy voters.

[mutantdevle]

Read the last paragraph of Lalendra's post, please.

That is no reason not to respond to the points she has made about you up until that point.

Oh, and while you're at it, r e a d my fucking p o s t s.

I've already replied to most of the points made by Lalendra before she made them, which she and you would've known if you'd just read. My. Posts.

It is incredibly ignorant of you to think that I am going to remember every single post you have made and recall all of your opinions. I often re-read a lot to refresh my mind on who thinks what. I don't even remember everything I have posted so, of course, I'm not going to remember everything you say. Generally speaking, if your posts aren't noteworthy, I'm not going to remember them. And since most of what you say consists of you being unconstructively aggressive or being hypocritical, it drowns out most of what else you say.

Furthermore, did I not say this?:

And don't give the "you're not reading my posts" bs; if you think you have already refuted a point, then quote/link the post where you do so.

I knew you would comment with that because that's how predictable you have presented yourself. If I were to use your own logic, I would say that you aren't reading my posts either. But I don't think that's the case, instead, it feels like you are purposely ignoring this point and putting forth that defence anyway. Why? Because your previous defence of "your not making points for me to refute" no longer works. You have things to refute now but you refuse to do so. The only reason why would be that you are scum. Like I say, if you genuinely feel that you have refuted these points before, quote where you have done so. Surely, if you are town, you would want your points out there for everyone to see so that we know you are town? Instead, you choose to force players to look back through your iso to find the posts where you allegedly refuted her statements just so you can free yourself from any responsibility and blame us when we can't find these refutes.

I'd also like to narrow down on this:

I've already replied to

most

of the points made by Lalendra before she made them,

Most. Most does not equal all. So you accept that some of the points she made you haven't refuted. Okay then, why don't you at least reply to those ones? And if you don't reply to them, then that must mean they are perfectly valid reasons as to why you are scum right? If that's the case, then thanks for the scum claim <3. 'Most' would imply you've gone through Lalendra's points and acknowledged which ones you have refuted and which ones you haven't. But let's be honest here, you don't know which of her points are covered by 'most' do you? Because all you meant by 'most' was "I can't be bothered to refute these statements so I'm going to write something that will hopefully get people off my back but is purposely ambiguous so that if someone does go through my iso I will still have some wiggle room".

Viomi, if there is any town in you (which I doubt more and more with every post you make), then you would at the very least refute the points Lalendra made that are not covered by your 'most' statement. Furthermore, I'm asking you to show us where you refute her statements if you genuinely believe you have already done so. You have literally no reason to not do that unless you are hiding something. The only reason anyone would have to hide anything is if they are either scum or a PR. Since you are last in the draft list, there is basically no chance you have a PR. So by PoE, that makes you scum.

[mutantdevle]

For the record, I have full intent to hammer. But only after I am satisfied with those on the wagon and only after I have finished my spreadsheet of past PYP meta.

[mutantdevle]

Prodge while we wait for a hammer.

One reason I said Viomi was faking ignorance was because they specifically asked if this setup was Pick Your Poison earlier, but recently they denied knowledge of Pick Your Poison.

Is that your only other reason for voting viomi?

So far your reasons are:
- Viomi is not familiar with the setup despite this being her second game.
- She seems to be faking ignorance about the pick your poison set up.

I'm not satisfied with your position on this wagon.

[mutantdevle]

@Chip Butty

Oh, the old "It was just a reaction test". How fresh and original.

VOTE: Viomi

L-2, I believe...

So... what are your reasons for voting Viomi? Becuase even in your other posts you have yet to explain why you are voting Viomi. She has asked you to explain your vote several times but you have always responded with one of 2 excuses that either Viomi hasn't explained her vote on you and that you don't need to do the talking because you are not on L-1. You are going out of your way to avoid giving a reason as to why you are voting Viomi and it's the scummiest shit I have seen on this site so far.

So you have 3 options Chip:
1: Explain why you are voting Viomi.
2: Accept that your vote on Viomi is nothing but OMGUS and hence unvote.
3: Admit you are scum.

Oh but wait, you're not at L-1! Surely that means you don't have to explain any of your actions right? Well, let's see what we can do about that...

VOTE: Chip Butty

You have made 5 posts since I wrote this Chip. Why are you avoiding answering me?

@chip, you have made a further 7 posts since I made this post. These 7 posts continue to ignore me and my position on you.

Your current purposely avoiding questions post count is 12.

Is no one else finding this super scummy?

[mutantdevle]

Chip butty wtf...

So you're not answering me because you don't think I'm being serious? Well fun fact, I am being serious. Now we've established that, answer the damn question.

To specify, that question is "why are you voting Viomi"?

Because the answer is either, you are scum, it's OMGUS or you have yet to explain. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming you just have yet to explain. But the longer you put off doing so, the scummier you look.

[mutantdevle]

Also welcome @CheekyTeeky.

You might want to take into consideration the actions of Wilky who has caused your slot to gain some heat here and there, but for the most part, it's early enough in the game for me to consider what you bring as fresh. Try to rationalise what you can that wilky said but don't try to justify everything he did because that just looks scummy.

[mutantdevle]

Also welcome @CheekyTeeky.

You might want to take into consideration the actions of Wilky who has caused your slot to gain some heat here and there, but for the most part, it's early enough in the game for me to consider what you bring as fresh. Try to rationalise what you can that wilky said but don't try to justify everything he did because that just looks scummy.

Coaching?

What do you mean by coaching? I’ll reply to your other posts tomorrow.

[mutantdevle]

Also welcome @CheekyTeeky.

You might want to take into consideration the actions of Wilky who has caused your slot to gain some heat here and there, but for the most part, it's early enough in the game for me to consider what you bring as fresh. Try to rationalise what you can that wilky said but don't try to justify everything he did because that just looks scummy.

Coaching?

What do you mean by coaching? I’ll reply to your other posts tomorrow.

Again, you have had plenty of opportunities to reply to this since I asked this question yet you are intent on ignoring me. Can you not even explain a simple word choice when asked?

Also, I wasn't implying you're not being serious, I'm implying you might well be scum. Then again, you seem like the easy mislynch type, of which we seem to have several in this game.

So you are ignoring me because you think I

might

be scum? I don't buy it. You don't ignore Viomi yet you scum read her a lot more than you do me. Sure you don't answer her questions either, but you at least acknowledge them. Furthermore, if you are genuinely ignoring me because I am scum, then what an arrogant a stupid thing to do. The only time you should ever discredit an opinion is if the player has flipped scum. But even then, their opinion may still be useful to figure out who the other scum are. Surely you cannot be so reckless and arrogant to believe that your opinions are guaranteed to be right and hence ignore all those that explore other ideas. Ignoring calls for you to explain your actions is one hell of an anti-town action.

Chip butty wtf...

So you're not answering me because you don't think I'm being serious? Well fun fact, I am being serious. Now we've established that, answer the damn question.

To specify, that question is "why are you voting Viomi"?

Because the answer is either, you are scum, it's OMGUS or you have yet to explain. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming you just have yet to explain. But the longer you put off doing so, the scummier you look.

It's pretty obvious if you just read the pages leading up to and including my vote post.

So... OMGUS? Either that or because Viomi buddied you. If neither of those are the reason then it is not 'obvious' and you need to explain yourself. An OMGUS vote would warrant an unvote since it's not really a valid reason to vote someone and if you are voting for Viomi purely out of the buddying fiasco then that is both sheeping and not a valid reason to feel so passionately that someone is scum.

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Viomi page 6 bookmark.

I literally whispered to myself "are you fucking kidding me?" when I saw this post. T'was such a relief to see that your slot had already been voting for Viomi. Please don't scare me like that again

It'd probably be best if you weren't so carefree with your votes in the future but at least no damage was done. I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw scum in Viomi so early in the game.

[mutantdevle]

Ok page 8 skim reads:

mutantdevle
CityElectric
CommKnight
Creature

Chip Butty
northsidegal
Assemblerotws
texcat

Aster
Viomi
Lalendra


I'll bbl.

I'm assuming this is formatted as town, null, scum? Clarification here would be appreciated here but it's not something I'm concerned with pursuing at this stage.

Btw, how far are you through reading every page? Reads are nice but I'd prefer to see your more accurate and up-to-date reads.

[mutantdevle]

mutantdevle, you know what I find funny? You seem to agree with me that people should be giving their reasoning as to why they think I'm scum, and yet.. You aren't? You've clearly said I'm a scumread of yours and that you'd like to hammer me at some point, yet you haven't given a single actual reason. Just that my posts "seem scummy". So as to not be seen as a hypocritical scumfuck, why don't you give me a good case?

And did you read Lalendra's "case"? You think those inane points actually warrant a response?

I find not giving proper reasons in the first place to be more sheepy than it is scummy. What is scummy though, is when I ask someone to elaborate on their opinions but fail to do so. I would accept your statement that I am being hypocritical as true if I had ignored calls for me to explain my views on you (or anyone) in the past. But as this is the first time I've been asked to elaborate, I am not being hypocritical as I have every intention to do so.

As for Lalendra's case, I do think they warrant a response. Especially since you acknowledge that there are some points that you haven't addressed if only 'most' of them you have refuted before the points were made. I appreciate that you have now answered Lalendra's concerns. It will be interesting to see how she responds. At the very least, if she still considers you scum, then she'd have to go back, read and analyse your more recent posts to continue her case. This is both what you seem to want and would be useful for reading each of you.


Okay, so I originally made points against you back on day 1 in posts 214, 224 and 272 (context required for 272). I still agree with much of what I said there. In short, my scum read on you is based on how weak and sheepy your position was on my wagon, your general consistent hypocrisy, your non-constructive aggression and the effort it takes to get some things out of you. If you need me to elaborate on these accusations then I will happily do so but you'd have to wait until tomorrow for that post. You are no longer my top scum read though. This is because of a combination of you seeming a little more towny lately and Chip just being scummy as shit. I do still view you as scummier than CommKnight though, who's silence seems to be working to diffuse the pressure that came onto her.

[mutantdevle]

I believe CT's reads on Viomi.

I'm guessing that I'm probably not going to get much more out of you than this. Okay. But if you ever try to disagree with something CT had said about Viomi before post 883 was made then you are going to be highly considered scum to me.

[mutantdevle]

For the record, I have full intent to hammer. But only after I am satisfied with those on the wagon and only after I have finished my spreadsheet of past PYP meta.

Bad scum. You don't declare intent until you're ready for a claim. Declare intent once you're satisfied with those on my wagon and done with your spreadsheet shit.

Fear not my dear for I have every intention of declaring that I am satisfied with everyone on your wagon and have finished my spreadsheet before I place a hammering vote on you. And for the record, that would not be with the purpose of wanting a claim from you; you almost definitely have nothing to claim. The purpose of this warning would be to give people time to unvote if they think you should not be lynched yet or for whatever reason. Additionally, if my vote is not the hammer, my warning will be my vote and someone else can hammer.

[mutantdevle]

Btw, how far are you through reading every page? Reads are nice but I'd prefer to see your more accurate and up-to-date reads.

Could you please give a readslist - no justification needed at this point I just want to see where you're placing everyone at this point.

Of course, I can justify if you need me to though:

Town:

Creature
northsidegal
Lalendra

Town lean:

Aster
CheekyTeeky

Null:

texcat
CityElectric
Assemblerotws

Scum lean:

CommKnight
Viomi

Scum:

Chip Butty

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Viomi page 6 bookmark.

I literally whispered to myself "are you fucking kidding me?" when I saw this post. T'was such a relief to see that your slot had already been voting for Viomi. Please don't scare me like that again

It'd probably be best if you weren't so carefree with your votes in the future but at least no damage was done. I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw scum in Viomi so early in the game.

What the point of this post? I only see the intention to look townie. You're not asking for any info or giving an opinion that trys to sort me.

Just because the post neither asks for info or gives an opinion specifically related to you doesn't mean it has no meaning or is devoid of opinion. This post puts forth 2 opinions of mine. First of all, it expresses the extent that I don't want Viomi lynched at this point in time as seeing what I thought was the hammer caused me to involuntarily mutter something to myself irl. Second of all, it further emphasises our shared opinion that Viomi has been looking scummy from the very beginning. To my recollection, Texcat seems to be the only other person to properly acknowledge that and it's something I would want more players to consider. Additionally, you could also say it voices my concern with how you voted with such a carefree attitude (if you want the post to stretch to have a connection with sorting you).

VOTE: Viomi page 6 bookmark.

I literally whispered to myself "are you fucking kidding me?" when I saw this post. T'was such a relief to see that your slot had already been voting for Viomi. Please don't scare me like that again

It'd probably be best if you weren't so carefree with your votes in the future but at least no damage was done. I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw scum in Viomi so early in the game.

Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but this makes me want to lynch you.

Are you sure it isn't that you've actually wanted me dead ever since I started applying pressure to you (which you don't seem to be withstanding too well) and you are sheeping on Cheeky's concerns with my posts to disguise your OMGUS reasons for wanting me dead?

Definitely playstyle. I told CheekyTeeky a very similar thing and you haven't expressed any desire to lynch me that I can remember.

The context was very different assemble. You pointed it out when I first did it to warn me and I responded that it was my mistake I should read around the last few pages before voting. Here mutant has no reason to bring it up, it has already been addressed by you, me and Viomi. There's no need to give a useless opinion on it a page later instead of addressing other content. If Mutant is town he is ill advised to choose that one post as it looks like he's trying to appear townie 1. By saying thank goodness you didn't derp hammer and 2. By looking busy/attentive. Town don't worry about how they look so the intent in his fluff post feels scummily self-aware, which is super annoying because I thought he was a derp town read. He's currently back to nullscum until I ISO him.

Another point here is that we can see mutant is a verbose player who usually has good points to make so this struck me as off in the context of what I've atrributed to his playstyle so far.

I've explained why I have brought it up above in this post ^^. This is pretty much exactly what I would have said had I been able to make a post at the time. "There's no need to give a useless opinion on it a page later instead of addressing other content." - I did not make this post

instead

of addressing other content. I made this post

as well as

addressing other content which you can see by my posts surrounding this one in particular. Because of the other posts around it, I also disagree that I have chosen "that one post" to respond to. I should probably point out that I've recently changed my posting style up a bit. Previously, these clusters of posts I make would all be in 1 giant post which you can see on day 1 (especially in posts like 148, 161 and 175 to name a few). I recently decided to format these giant posts as a series of smaller posts so that my posts feel less like endless walls and they are easier to read. Hence, I understand how this post can seem a little off in regards to how I play. To be fair though, this kinda thing isn't entirely out of character for me as I do often post some small things that are not entirely contributory (and often jokey) in between my posts. Post 360 is a good example of this.

[mutantdevle]

Vote Count 2.5

CommKnight (4) - Aster, Creature, Viomi, Chip Butty

[/color][/b]

I didn't realise Comm was at L-2...

Ignore this:

I do still view you as scummier than CommKnight though, who's silence seems to be working to diffuse the pressure that came onto her.

[mutantdevle]

884

Something along those lines.

Seriously? That's going to be your response... I swear you are purposely being ambiguous. This is like me going "They only have what you want in red, green or blue so which of those is your most favourite colour?" and then you respond "one of those colours." Do you see how this isn't helpful? I want you to answer me, not just acknowledge me. Please stop avoiding the question. Why are you voting Viomi? Explain yourself. You are the only one who has not done so and you have gone to great lengths to avoid answering.

@mutant: What the fuck do you think coaching means? It means coaching.

Of course I know what the word means. But why have you used it in this context? What are you trying to imply by pointing out I am coaching? My first thought was that you are trying to suggest I am coaching a scum buddy but that accusation would make literally no sense since scum has day chat. Other than that I don't know what the purpose of simply saying "coaching" has and it feels like you are just posting for the sake of it or trying to criticise me in every way you can because of how hard I am pushing you.

[mutantdevle]

Assemble you're such a lurksac. I'm scum reading you. Who are your strongest SRs and TRs?

Are you scum reading him solely based on his activity? Because if so then you should acknowledge both his meta and his signature. He always lurks no matter what. If there are other reasons you are voting him though then I'd appreciate an explanation.

[mutantdevle]

I already factored in the fact that ANYONE WHO FAILED TO GET THEIR ROLE CHOICE EACH PERSON BELOW THEM HAS A BETTER CHANCE OF RECEIVING THE ROLE THEY CHOSE.

You by no means factored this in. You acknowledged it. There is a huge difference. You basically acknowledged that other factors would affect the probability but went ahead and gave us probabilities that you knew to be wrong anyway. This wouldn't be so bad but you seem to want to justify your maths when Aster has given something more accurate; to refute that is just scummy. Aster obviously puts more time into calculating the maths behind things which is why I wish I could share some of my meta game findings with them.

I understand and agree with your logic behind not wanting to lynch within the players who are most likely to be PRs but your maths here is flawed, you know it's flawed, and yet you push it anyway. This just comes across as desperate.

[mutantdevle]

I didn't realise Comm was at L-2...

You could make it L-1.

I could but first I wanna finish my spreadsheet (should be done today) then I'll look over the reasons people are voting for CommKnight. If I am satisfied with both of those, then yes.

[mutantdevle]

That unvote made me re-look at the vote count and I saw that Chip was no longer voting Viomi.

I assume that unvote is confirmation your vote on viomi was OMGUS?

Okay. Sorry about missing that, you don't need to answer that anymore then I guess

[mutantdevle]

I can't quite work out why this player was killed in relation to the draft order, so I assume it has something to do with her reads being dangerous maybe? Could be stretchy. Just want to see what others think.

I have almost finished my spreadsheet and so far the data would suggest that kills in the middle and lower parts of the draft list are performed because the player's reads are a threat to the scum.

@Everyone, the theory that MT was killed because she was suspected to be a protective role is fundamentally wrong.

As to the draft order, people at the top of draft order are a lot less likely to pick a protective role than someone toward the middle.

Not only have scum never hunted specifically for protective roles (such as JK and Doctor) in the past but saying that protective roles are found within the middle of the list is also false as well. She may have been killed because they were hunting for a specific role but that role type is far more likely to be an informative one than a protective one. Of course, there's a first time for everything. But for now, I no longer believe this theory.

Omg it just occured to me that it would make the most sense for scum to pick 2, 3 and 4 right or 3, 4, 6?

No, it really wouldn't. It would be a stupid idea for scum to pick their numbers with a pattern. Typically scum would choose 1 low number, 1 medium number and 1 high number (usually within the range 1-15). I can get a more accurate analysis on this specifically once I've finished my spreadsheet.

[mutantdevle]

So I've finished my spreadsheet. There are 12 completed pick your power games and I've salvaged as much relevant data from them as I can. But now I'm making different tables that list statistics based on this data. This is so that I don't have to calculate things in the moment when I am curious about a certain probability. For example, I have created a table over how frequently each number is picked and how frequently they are picked by each alignment. If we were to go on player's draft numbers

alone

, then this is the probability each player still alive would be scum:


mutantdevle: 33.33%
CommKnight: 26.67%
Aster: 25.93%
Viomi: 25.93%
texcat: 21.05%
northsidegal: 20%
Chip Butty: 16.67%
CityElectric: 16.67%
Lalendra: 10%
CheekyTeeky: 10%
Creature: 10%
Assemblerotws: 6.9%


Obviously, the number chosen alone would be a terrible reason to scum read someone. But if you are ever split between 2 people to either lynch or use a night action on then you could always look at who has the highest percentage of being scum. (in before this advice gets me killed since I chose the scummiest number).


Another fun fact: we have a 58% chance of winning

[mutantdevle]

Let's be honest here, CommKnight's actions have been scummy as heck. But anyone who has acknowledged her softclaiming a PR and then now hardclaiming one but is still prepared to lynch them then they are either scum trying to get this lynch over with just to claim "oooh whoops, t'was an accident" afterwards or is completely fucking stupid.

The lynch is staying below Misa's point on the draft order. There's probably scum above her, but we'd be outing our PRs by forcing people to claim.

Want to dispute it? Bring the cop checks to back it up. If not, we continue low on the list and aim for the people who tried to get high in the order pick and failed.

Chances are, we have a cop collecting some alignments before outing,

Maybe it's worth your time to begin considering why I am quiet instead of falling into Creature's "Comm isn't usual Comm" trap. That's all people's argument on me is based on. My activity level or the fact I don't have perfect reads by D2 with 0 scum caught and 0 guilty claims from any existing cops.

So why avoid the top 5? You're going fucking hit a town PR which might end up being jailkeeper or doctor or even the bloody cop.

Well I'm going to sit back here and watch as Cheeky single handedly helps scum out every fucking town PR we have. Because screw cops and what not these days. Obviously don't need them.

Can we not lynch our cop thanks?

[mutantdevle]

I mean, there's no guarantee he is the cop, but I'm pretty fucking certain he is an investigative role. The only investigative role that is commonly scum is the role cop.

Comm, are you prepared to hard claim a specific role? That would really help you out right now. If you think you are going to die tonight anyway then you may as well truthfully claim your role as you literally have nothing to lose by it.

[mutantdevle]

I'm not lynching Cheeky. I still have a firm scum read on Chip and would still be up for lynching Viomi.

Too many people seem to town read Chip but I just can't agree with that when he is unable to explain anything first time to literally anyone.

[mutantdevle]

Guys, Seriously? Do. Not. Lynch. Comm.

And Comm, if you are a cop then you only have 1 confirmed townie under your belt. Don't tell us who that is, especially if they are higher than you on the draft list. Why? Because that is almost guaranteed to get them shot after you.

But seriously everyone, can we please just not lynch Comm today? Lynch him tomorrow if we need to.

VOTE: Viomi

[mutantdevle]

Nice theory Aster. It's a shame it's wrong.

Second, it is remarkable how Viomi's wagon was pretty much ignored while she was at L-1, as in "Uhh, Viomi is at L-1, but what're we s'pposed to do with that?" However, now that a CommKnight wagon has started, some players (esp. mutant) suddenly seem desperate to get her lynched—players who weren't even on the Viomi wagon originally and could easily have hammered her a hundred hours ago.

I expressed A LOT of interest in the Viomi wagon. I went out of my way to weed out the weak intentions on her wagon to make sure it's as strong and genuine as it could be. I also expressed A LOT of interest in hammering her. I specifically stated several times that I was not going to vote until I was satisfied that all votes were genuine and that I had finished my spreadsheet.

Mutant, the currently greatest pusher of the Viomi bandwagon, seems suspicious in particular. He wasn't originally on the wagon and no new evidence against Viomi has surfaced since; he is only pushing the wagon now to protect CommKnight.

Despite not being on the wagon when it was at L-1, I'd argue I was still the greatest pusher of it back then. But I wasn't pushing in the sense that I was encouraging others to vote for her, I was pushing in the sense that I was forcing Viomi to make replies to others accusations and making sure that people on the wagon had genuine accusations to begin with. To say I am now only voting Viomi to protect Comm is completely ignorant to how I have spent most of day 2 vocally addressing Viomi's wagon. It's true that I am now defending Comm, but that's because I have interpreted what Comm has said to narrow down what role he could potentially have to a select few. Out of these options, my spreadsheet of meta would suggest that there is a high probability Comm is town based on what role he chose. I agree that Comm looks scummy; you forget that I was too scum reading Comm up until I realised that he has an investigative role. Comm might be scummy but he isn't scum.

What happened between the point where mutant wanted Comm to hardclaim and reveal his investigations, and the point where he no longer cares about him hardclaiming and doesn't want him to reveal his investigations anymore? (After his own rolefishing yesterday, to boot?)

What is it that you people don't understand about the way I phrase my questions? Yesterday, I asked textcat IF she would role claim. I didn't demand her to and I was not pushing her to. Today, I asked Comm if he was PREPARED TO hard claim. I was not demanding him to do so and I was not pushing him to do so. I gave my thoughts on why a role claim might have helped and Comm disagreed. Just like textcat's simple no to my question, Comm's simple no was just as good of an answer. You seem to think my intention here is to find out Comm's role. I'm fairly certain I know Comm's role, or at the very least narrowed it down to roles that I am comfortable declaring town. Obviously, I can't clarify this with Comm but my point stands that I want Comm to live to see tomorrow.

The thing that happened inbetween was CommKnight declaring that he refused to hardclaim. I find it ironic that after asking CommKnight to hardclaim (who had made a pretty strong softclaim) and CommKnight refusing to (which suggests he may not be the cop after all), mutant suddenly 180s and defends Comm's decision not to claim. He really looks like he's trying to protect Comm using any means.

How is this in any way ironic or a 180? I wasn't asking Comm to role claim, I was asking if he was going to. There is a huge question. Both questions have the same result. Either the answer is a role claim or it is a denial of said role claim. The difference between the 2 questions is that asking someone

to

roleclaim has the expectation that they do so. In contrast, the question I asked of if he is

prepared to

role claim leaves this choice up to the person I am asking (CommKnight) and is okay with either response. You are dead right that I am trying to prevent Comm from being lynched here; I believe he is a town PR. Why wouldn't I want him still alive? I'm defending Comm's decision not to claim because if he thinks that is better for his survival then I respect that. After all, Comm obviously knows more about his situation than I do.

And what's up with this "lynch him tomorrow" anyway? Why does he so badly want CommKnight to live another day? Why do we need to sacrifice Viomi for that one day? I don't see why a townie would want this, but there is enough reason why smuggling in just a single extra mislynch would be a great help towards the mafia. In addition, maybe CommKnight isn't the cop at all and has an ability that the mafia desperately wants to use one more night, which is why he wants to put the lynch off to tomorrow?

I want Comm to live because I think, despite his scummy actions, he is a town PR. Why wouldn't a townie want that? As for sacrificing Viomi, I think we can all see that she is a low risk of being a PR. Furthermore, if Comm is the scumking then Viomi is most certainly the scumqueen. The difference is, Viomi has less redeeming qualities. And oh yes you are right... sorry I forgot... Comm is actually our scum vigilante and we want to get that sweet sweet vig kill in tonight so it isn't wasted. That's why you shouldn't kill Comm today. Or, maybe it's just because I believe Comm is a town PR that isn't worth losing when we can lynch someone who isn't a PR but is just as scummy?

On another note, I'm noticing a strong buddying between mutant and Creature, a strong buddying between Creature and CommKnight, and a strong buddying between CommKnight and mutant. This suggests a Mutant/Creature/CommKnight scumteam.

Ahh yes of course. You got me again. Are we really still trying to push the agenda that myself and Creature are scum buddies? If I'm honest, I'd like to think I'd come across as a little more intelligent than to just blatantly buddy my scum partners. What an awful tactic...


This post isn't about Comm at all, is it? This is you pushing the belief that I am scum. This post, in general, is complete bs. Why? Well because you have put forth 2 things that directly contradict each other. On the one hand, you are saying I am scum for wanting to know Comm's role. On the other, you say I am scum for trying to keep Comm alive... surely you cannot believe both of these things? Make up your mind.

[mutantdevle]

Ayyyyyy

Ya boi has work in like 6 hours so I'mma drop a fresh

unvote

just in case, will do a little light reading before I drop off, and will be back with spicy hot takes in the morning

I like this guy already :3 Welcome.

I don't think light reading is too helpful considering the amount of time we have left in the day. So either you are going to have to read a lot all at once if you want to cover everything or start your light reading at day 2 and read day 1 later.

Speaking of reading to catch up, @Cheeky, have you read through everything yet? You've been quieter recently than your initial activity would suggest you usually are.

[mutantdevle]

So Aster is confirmed scum and Viomi is confirmed town. Thanks for outing that piece of information Aster.

VOTE: Aster

This is scum. Let's just fucking lynch it already and clear Viomi,

Uhh.. What? I'm flattered, but how the fuck does any of what he said clear me and confirm Aster as scum? I'm pretty sure Aster is town..

For the record, I second this. I feel that Aster just isn't reading deep enough into the things that are being said. I can see the town motivation in the things they say so I wouldn't be so quick to declare Aster as scum. I do think that Aster flipping scum would give Viomi some town cred but I really don't see a world in which we lynch Aster before Viomi.

[mutantdevle]

And mutantdevle has lost my townread, he seems way too motivated for reasons I can't understand from a town perspective.

So you understand my logic from a scum perspective?

[mutantdevle]

Could you state a case on Viomi please? Also could you please explain why you spent the time to refute Aster but didn't acknowledge your read on her as a result of the post you analysed? I can't figure out if you're casting shade on her or trying to help along a townie.

Case on Viomi: see below. I'm not too sure what you mean about acknowledging my read on Aster as a result of my post analysis. My read on Aster is town; my post analysis was simply a refute of Aster's points against me. And for your final question, the answer was both. I was in a sarcastic mood and hence some of my replies were sarcastic.

Okay so case on Viomi. Viomi asked me earlier during this day to state my case against her and I did so here:

Okay, so I originally made points against you back on day 1 in posts 214, 224 and 272 (context required for 272). I still agree with much of what I said there. In short, my scum read on you is based on how weak and sheepy your position was on my wagon, your general consistent hypocrisy, your non-constructive aggression and the effort it takes to get some things out of you. If you need me to elaborate on these accusations then I will happily do so

I'm assuming though that you want my extended explanation of my points against her since I am yet to do that. Up until this post, I've simply stated reasons but never explained them. So here you are:

Spoiler: Wall Incoming!

Viomi's day 1 was very lacklustre. If you looked at her posts from day 1 compared to day 2 then you'd probably think they were 2 different people. Her poor quality posting was fine up until she voted for me in post 144. I didn't take issue with this for OMGUS reasons, there are some people that I town read based on their approach to, and position on, my wagon (eg. NSG). However, Viomi's vote was naked. She did not present any of her own opinions towards my wagon. This is sheeping. She even acknowledged that she had contributed nothing to my wagon in post 271 with the excuse that what she wanted to say was already said. My problem with this is that if players do not specifically state what they agree or disagree with then that gives them the wiggle room to pretend they had a different opinion if the subject is ever brought up in a different light.

Also within post 271, she votes for pisskop also with little justification. Even when asked to elaborate on her pisskop vote she decided to sheep on the reason that he should be lynched because he wasn't contributing much. Basically, she wanted to lynch pisskop because she policy lynches lurkers. I would have appreciated her to specifically say that at the time but alas she insisted that we read other people's opinions as her own. I also don't think policy lynching lurkers is the best idea, but perhaps that's just because I'm more tolerant of lurking. But the additional thing here is that she was scum reading read me, yet she was voting for pisskop based on policy? Surely, if you want what's best for town you would want your scum reads lynched first instead of people you just want dead by policy? But instead of remaining on the wagon she genuinely thought was scum, she decided to sheep and jump on the growing bandwagon with little to no justification. Overall, her jump from my wagon to pisskop's with poor justification felt like Viomi just wanted a lynch and didn't really care who it was. It also gives me the implication that Viomi's stance on my wagon was forced and likely came from scum wanting to blend in with the rest of the townies. After all, I was obviously scum at the time and anyone who said otherwise was simply my scum buddy like Creature.

In post 352 Viomi quotes Aster and then votes for them. At no point does she ever clarify why she is voting for them. The only benefit to this vote is that it at least wasn't sheeped. But again, the lack of justification just made the vote seem unnatural. She formatted the post in a way that we are supposed to understand why she is voting based on what Aster said. This gives a certain level of ambiguity and leaves the read on Aster up to interpretation. Viomi has consistently done this throughout the game so that when we get her opinion we take the blame for it. I think this is a very scummy way to play. It's important that your opinions are clear so that you are more readable but Viomi refuses to make things easier for us when it comes to understanding her opinions; this gives me the impression that she is hiding something. And that something clearly isn't a PR.

Post 398: the information that was supposed to be gained from my lynch was never explained by neither Viomi nor anyone else making that claim. Furthermore, she states that my wagon was "shut down". It wasn't shut down, it fell apart by the number of people jumping off of my wagon and onto pisskop's. Viomi was a part of that yet blames others for my wagon falling apart.

It's a good thing my meta as scum is to try very hard and be motivated then isn't it

This was said by Viomi on day 1. Kinda sounds like how day 2 Viomi has been acting in comparison :3. It's undeniable that since day 1 Viomi's activity has stepped up and she seems more motivated. Just sayin'.

UNVOTE:

Yeah aster is town

VOTE: pisskop

I'm sure post 398 makes it clear that Viomi would prefer me to be lynched since she actually scum reads me. So why is she voting pisskop? Because at this stage the "oh my god he's role fishing he must be scum!!" hype had died down and pisskop seemed more likely to be lynched. I think this is again proving that Viomi didn't really care who got lynched.

i cant believe we've stopped hunting and arr Still riding the 'but the troll hurt meh feelz' wave.

I can't believe the lurker troll who has done 0 scumhunting is complaining about people not scumhunting

This is where Viomi's hypocrisy begins. At this point in the game, all Viomi had done was place some votes and give a few snarky comments. That is not scum hunting, it is sheeping. She had no right to criticise others for not scum hunting when, at this stage in the game, she had not done any herself.

Does anyone actually believe that post 628 was actually a reaction test on Chip? Like what fucking bs. I feel like this was more Viomi backtracking on her Chip read after feeling strong OMGUS against him that caused her to realise he was genuinely scummy. And let's just say Viomi was actually scum reading Chip and wanted to see his reaction to her town reading him. What would that have hoped to achieve? He basically said nothing scummy before she was like "aha, gotcha" and I see no reason why she had to lie about her read on Chip. Overall, regardless of whether she was reaction testing or not, this whole thing feels forced and fabricated.

In posts 628-629 she criticises sheeping yet this is exactly what she had been doing most of the game. In 631 she also criticises Chip for not actually giving an opinion when she had failed to properly give her opinion with her votes several times before. Viomi has just been consistently a hypocrite throughout this game.

You're not pressuring me or gaining any information from me with this wagon. Why? Because every single one of you fuckers sheeped without any reasons to add on. I have responded to everything that you claim I did scummy, and explained exactly why you're wrong and asked for clarification on why you think said actions are scummy. Your response is to refuse to participate in the conversation and give us more information, to not make a case, and to continue blindly sheep because you don't actually have reasons and don't actually care who's lynched, scumbag.

I feel like a lot of this quote describes how Viomi was acting on day 1. So now we have day 1 Viomi giving a reason why day 2 Viomi is scummy and day 2 Viomi giving a reason why day 1 Viomi is scummy. Are we sure we are actually playing with the same person here? Because something overnight 1 has suddenly motivated Viomi to be more active and helpful and it makes me suspicious. If I was to look at day 2 Viomi in isolation then I'd be looking at a lot more of a townie player. But since what Viomi says day 2 contrasts with what she did day 1 I feel that, despite agreeing with a fair few of her recent opinions, she is incredibly scummy and just generally a bad presence in the town.

Yeah, no. I already gave my reason. Gunning for the top draft order is most likely to hit town PRs or at the very least out them for scum to kill. No town motivation at all to push for that D2 before we even nab one scum for a better picture on who in the top draft we should be pushing.

Oh, and where was I gunning for texcat? That's why my vote has never been on him (that I remember), right? There's

no

way you could be misrepresenting my actions or behaviors, because only scum would do that, right?

I think it's fairly obvious at this point that Viomi has, at the very least, a scum lean on texcat. I don't get why she would be denying this here.

Post 724 Viomi states that she would genuinely like someone to make a case against her so she can reply to it. Post 734 Lalendra makes a case against her. Post 737 Viomi basically sticks her middle finger up to Lalendra's post and refused to reply to the points. Eventually, I did get her to refute the points but only after a bit of back and forth. Additionally, in one of my posts that asks her to reply to Lalendra's case, I specifically said this:

And don't give the "you're not reading my posts" bs; if you think you have already refuted a point, then quote/link the post where you do so.

Her response was this:

Read the last paragraph of Lalendra's post, please.

Oh, and while you're at it, r e a d my fucking p o s t s.

I've already replied to most of the points made by Lalendra before she made them, which she and you would've known if you'd just read. My. Posts.

She did exactly the thing I specifically asked her not to do...

Viomi's catchphrase is definitely "read my posts". She is ignorant to the fact that she does not explain her opinion properly and chooses to blame others for their misunderstanding. This deflection of responsibility strikes me as super scummy. Any normal townie would want to make their points and opinions clear but Viomi chooses to remain ambiguous. Upon calls from us to clarify her statements, she will almost always tell us to read her posts as though we are to blame for the confusion.

If you read post 724, Viomi makes it clear that she has responded to

most

of Lalendra's points. Viomi is, again, purposely ambiguous here and never actually states which points she refers to by 'most'. I think the reason for that is she doesn't actually know which points she considers being answered under 'most' as this post was made only to deflect Lalendra's concerns rather than refute them.



Viomi's more recent stuff has seemed more townie to me as her posts have seemed less scummy and I agree with some of what she says (except the accusations against CK and "read my posts" parts). I do explicitly state where I agree with Viomi as and when I do though. But as of now, Viomi is my best bet for scum (aside from Chip) which is why I'd prefer her lynched instead of Comm. Viomi is also less of a loss of we make a mistake and I'd argue that Viomi is more anti-town than Comm is.

[mutantdevle]

Why does Aster!scum = Viomi!town?

If you don't understand how this basic logic works, no wonder you can't understand me pushing people lower on the list than Misa.

Here's a question that answers your question when you think about it some more: Why would scum both pick the SAME NUMBER?

That and the interactions between Aster and Viomi makes me think that if Aster is scum then there is a low chance that Viomi is also scum.

[mutantdevle]

Blatant ass-kissing noted. Also, bish I read 90 page D1s for fun, this ain't shit.

No ass kissing intended. It's just the way in which you write and post reminds me of some of my college friends :3

Also if you really think you can read and familiarise yourself with everything that has happened so far in a short time span then I am afraid that I am going to kiss your ass even more since I really appreciate players who are willing to wade through a lot of text.

[mutantdevle]

Why would scum both pick the SAME NUMBER?

In order to throw you off and make them seem like not scumbuddies so people like you would conftown someone after their scumbuddy died?

Your argument is WIFOM.

This has only ever happened once. I mean, I doubt that will change anyone's opinion but just sayin'.

Also, doing this fucked scum over. Because of choosing the same number, none of them got a PR. So if scum have chosen the same number, then let's just hope they are just as fucked

[mutantdevle]

X: I'm an innocent child.
Mod: X is indeed an innocent child.
texcat: X is still on my scum list.

I town read you and all Creature but since when were you ever confirmed town? NGL, this post comes across as a little arrogant.

[mutantdevle]

We could like experiment a new wagon.

I can lynch: Aster, Cheeky, or Chip.

From your options, I'm most fine with Aster or Chip.

I'm amenable to Mutant/CommKnight/ChipButty

I don't object to mutant\comm\chip, but I would still prefer to lynch Viomi.

Lalendra + texcat + CK is a nice looking group. But then there's Chip Butty over here..

So let's lynch Chip then? This is 6 of us that are either okay with lynching Chip or actually scum read him. That's good enough for me.

VOTE: Chip Butty

[mutantdevle]

Creature is still on my scum list. I don't object to mutant\comm\chip, but I would still prefer to lynch Viomi.

Oh look, more lurky side-posts with no information and no motivation from texcat over here, with no positions on anything other than "yeah im cool with lynching some people"

Can we PLEASE lynch this shit tomorrow? And if we have a roleblocker, please block texcat tonight, thanks.

If you flip town Viomi then I can assure you that I will pressure and push texcat on your behalf.

[mutantdevle]

A post that actually refutes all of my statements which I honestly wasn't expecting from her.

Just shut up and vote Chip I'll reply to your points tomorrow when I wake up. Should be enjoyable to read.

[mutantdevle]

Hi mutantdevle

I guess this means I have to reply then?

I read everything throughout my day on my phone. I reply when I get to my PC. Sometimes, if the post I can make is small enough, I will reply on my phone. The posts I need to make in this game I way to big for me to reply here efficiently.

[mutantdevle]

QQ, viomi didn't explain the obvious to me..

It was not obvious nor did you explain it to anyone.

Uh, yeah no, you were being a scummy piece of shit by demanding PRs roleclaim. Lmfao.

For a post that is supposed to be about you refuting the points I have brought up about you it feels strangely like a post that was made purely to attack me. You know as well as I do that I was never demanding a role claim. I asked IF she was going to. And no point did I ever pressure her over it or demand that she did so.

QQ again, viomi linking a scummy post that set off red flags which is CLEARLY WHAT THAT POST MEANS.

Obviously, we knew you weren't happy with the post, but you never explained what it was you were unhappy with and why it made you unhappy. This is important for if you want others to agree with you.

Yes, so up for interpretation.. I wonder what read I would've had on Aster at that point in the game if I voted for them... Hrmmmm.....

I was more referring to the why of your read was left ambiguous not the what. You never explained why you had that read as simply quoting their post is not enough. It makes it ambiguous as to what in the post is the scummy part and requires everyone else to interpret what is scum in the post themselves. Have you considered how off your post would look in the point of view of someone who does not find the post scummy at all? Do you see now why you need to explain some things?

Information was obvious, you had a bunch of people on you and then waffle off of you. You were making bold demands to get PRs to claim. Clearly there was information to gain from your flip.

What is this information? Even now you have failed to explain it. The only information you would have learned was whether or not I asked my question with town intent. And again, I was never demanding texcat to claim; I simply asked her if she was going to. And where is this plural coming from? I only asked 1 question to 1 person.

I didn't leave your wagon, I was dealing with a policy lynch and then got a tad distracted by red flags from Aster, admittedly, but..

It would have been nice if you had explained this at the time.

Already replied to this, but just to get another word in.. I try very hard when I get annoyed. I get annoyed more often as scum, admittedly, but you all refusing to read my posts tends to be somewhat infuriating at times.

Your fault here is that we are reading your posts. Do you not understand how from the point of view of someone who is reading your posts your annoyance seems like it is unfounded and coming out of nowhere? If you explained some of your opinions better we wouldn't have to keep asking you about them and hence you wouldn't get frustrated over it, thus making you not look so scummy.

Replied to this already, but I'll reply again: You can criticize someone for being hypocritical and it doesn't make you hypocritical as well. Notice how you are doing just that? You are criticizing me for criticizing pisskop for not scumhunting when I wasn't scumhunting, even though you don't scumhunt. Isn't that ironic?

No, it's not ironic because I have been scum hunting... on the other hand, you had not been at this time. Of course, you have since had a change in dynamic and I would definitely say you are scum hunting now. But the point remains that you weren't back then.

Again, my reasons for all of my votes were obvious. The one on you was obvious, the Policy Lynch on pisskop was explained, and I quoted the post Aster made that made me vote him. This is blatant misrepresentation and you seem to love to keep pushing the same narrative even though I've replied to this bullshit from Lalendra already. Why are you two pushing identical points? B a a a a h?

The votes on myself and Pisskop were obvious but they were still sheeping and hence didn't feel genuine. And your sudden claim that I am sheeping Lalendra is obscure at best. If this is what you consider sheeping, then you must think that every time someone agrees with someone else that they are sheeping them. The difference is that a sheep will follow someone's opinion without adding anything to it or explaining why. You never explained your votes, you just left us to assume you were voting for the same reason as everyone else which is very much sheeping.

Tbh I was having trouble keeping motivated to keep in the game D1. I had a way cooler game going on, you guys were mostly lurking and sheeping around so I kinda joined the party. Yeah, 'twas pretty scummy, honestly. But then that game ended and pisskop isn't in this game anymore (thank heavens).

This explanation gives you some more town credit in my eyes. I'm glad you admit that you were actually sheeping back then. I too prioritise games by how interesting they are so I find this point perfectly valid. But you can't just expect us to sweep this day 1 scummy behaviour of yours under the rug whenever we look at you as a whole. This refute has redeemed you slightly though.

Try reading that post again. I do not deny any scumread on texcat. But there's a difference between scumreading someone and "gunning for them".

Fair enough.

Nobody seems to have this issue but you. Aster seems to understand me just fine, Cheeky has seemed to get my opinion pretty easily, Kidamn has, even CK has even though he has thought I'm scum for most of today. Soooo.....

Here is a list of people you have either told to read your posts or have accused of not reading your posts (other than me):

Chip
texcat
Comm
Cheeky
Lalendra
Assemblerotws

So this isn't my opinion on people who don't find your posts clear enough, it's yours. That's 7 of us in total.

It's almost as if I'm telling you to read my posts because maybe, just maybe, those posts already have the answers to your exact questions.

If they do then they are not clear enough. It would also be far better on your part if instead of you telling us to read your posts every time, you link, quote or simply say the post number of where you have done so. Not only would this give everyone a much stronger town impression on you, but if the fault is indeed ours, then this would make that clear and undeniable.

Again, you DIDN'T READ MY FUCKING POSTS. I literally replied to most of her points, POINT BY POINT, LINE BY FUCKING LINE, and others I left UNANSWERED because they were stupid points. You could've seen with your own FUCKING EYEBALLS which ones I answered if you had READ THE FUCKING POST.

There's been a misunderstanding here. I accidentally linked post 724 when I meant 791. You replied to her points line by line in post 861. In post 791 you have no idea which points you are referring to by 'most'. Likewise, this point just now:

literally replied to most of her points, POINT BY POINT, LINE BY FUCKING LINE, and others I left UNANSWERED because they were stupid points.

You have no idea what points you refer to her by 'most' and the ones you felt were too stupid to reply to since in post 861 you reply to ALL of her points. You didn't leave any unanswered...

I love it when one of the most useless, distracting, sidetracking players in the game calls me "less of a loss" and "more anti-town" than CK.

By "less of a loss" I mean there is a lower risk of accidentally lynching a town PR if we lynch you since it is highly unlikely that you are a PR. So in regards to game mechanics and role abilities, you are less of loss. However, if we were to go on opinions alone, I would say you are more of a loss in that respect (even if it takes a while for you to get your opinions across).


Also, I must explain that my entire post was made to point out everything about you I found scummy. It wasn't really directed at you as such and it wasn't made with the intention for you to refute the points. I'm glad you did though, you volunteering to reply to it despite not being asked to makes you look townier in contrast with taking a while to reply to Lalendra's points earlier despite being requested to several times.

mutantdevle, why are you so opposed to a CK lynch? I'm genuinely curious. You seem to be doing everything in your power to build counter wagons.

Because I strongly believe that Comm is a town PR.

Also I love that mutantdevle jumps off me to a new counterwagon the moment I mention the nice-looking scumtrio on my wagon over here

My change to Chip has nothing to do with that trio suggestion. I have expressed that Chip is my top scum read multiple times throughout this day and I even tried to start a wagon on him in post 732.

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: NSG still waiting on your catch up.

Why would you vote pressure someone on VLA to do something they have already said they are going to do? Kinda seems forced to me.

[mutantdevle]

what?? obviously you realize that scum can be power roles as well, right?

Yes, I am fully aware of that. It's just I am under the impression that I know what role Comm is based on what he has said. At the very least, I have narrowed it down to 2. On first impression, both of those roles seem like they are roles a townie would be more inclined to pick rather than scum. My meta dive gives the result that 1 of the roles is almost always chosen by town and the other is more of a 60/40 split in favour of town. Also due to the nature of both of these roles, they would be hugely beneficial to keep alive. Furthermore, if he is scum with these roles, then there isn't too much damage he can do.

- That's all made with the assumption that Comm hasn't lied about any of the information about his role he as given. Of course, if it does turn out that Comm doesn't even have a role, then I am a victim of being heavily manipulated. I don't think Comm has lied about any of it though as it all feels genuine.

[mutantdevle]

i've pretty much started skipping over most of what mutant is saying.

Umm, can you not do that thanks? It's incredibly nieve of you to ignore me just because you think I am scum. What if you are wrong? Then you have basically ignored the opinion of a townie who is trying to help people along. Surely you cannot be that confident in your reads that you are willing to just write players off over it. Additionally, even if I am scum then shouldn't you still be listening to what I have to say so that you know who to look into next if I were to flip? The idea of ignoring someone is just flawed no matter what.

[mutantdevle]

@Creature, @Viomi, is it possible that either of you could state a full case on Lalendra? Currently, she is one of my strongest town reads.

[mutantdevle]

i've pretty much started skipping over most of what mutant is saying.

Umm, can you not do that thanks? It's incredibly nieve of you to ignore me just because you think I am scum. What if you are wrong? Then you have basically ignored the opinion of a townie who is trying to help people along. Surely you cannot be that confident in your reads that you are willing to just write players off over it. Additionally, even if I am scum then shouldn't you still be listening to what I have to say so that you know who to look into next if I were to flip? The idea of ignoring someone is just flawed no matter what.

Wait, mutant

Did you just tell nsg to read your posts?

Kek, I suppose I just did :3

It’s in a different context and I used a lot more words to do so though.

[mutantdevle]

i've pretty much started skipping over most of what mutant is saying.

Umm, can you not do that thanks? It's incredibly nieve of you to ignore me just because you think I am scum. What if you are wrong? Then you have basically ignored the opinion of a townie who is trying to help people along. Surely you cannot be that confident in your reads that you are willing to just write players off over it. Additionally, even if I am scum then shouldn't you still be listening to what I have to say so that you know who to look into next if I were to flip? The idea of ignoring someone is just flawed no matter what.

Wait, mutant

Did you just tell nsg to read your posts?

Kek, I suppose I just did :3

It’s in a different context and I used a lot more words to do so though.

It'd suck if she started asking you questions you've already answered and misrepresenting you because of it. I can't imagine how infuriating it'd be if the only posts she didn't ignore were the ones of you telling her to read your posts.

Luckily I will be capable of pointing her to the posts where I have answered those questions by saying "you can find my answer to that in post [insert number here]". Either that or I'll just simply answer the question again since I want my opinions to be known and clear and obviously if they have had to ask the question then I didn't make my original answer clear enough or it simply didn't stand out enough for it to be noticeable. After all, surely it'd be much easier for me to restate my own opinion which I should know off by heart instead of letting them get the wrong idea of me in their confusion?

[mutantdevle]

Ugh, it's annoying that no one else sees the Comm situation for what it is. It's also annoying that I second guess myself over if what I am seeing is the truth.

[mutantdevle]

And now I'm not so sure if what I see would even be a good thing...

[mutantdevle]

Okay, my reevaluation is that Comm being lynched isn't the end of the world as town but I think I'd still prefer it if he wasn't.

[mutantdevle]

I still have a strong town read on Lalendra but I'm definitely up for lynching Chip though.

My mind is still open to the possibility of Lalendra being scum if you'd care to make a case on her. I would go looking through her ISO to see if I find anything scummy but I personally don't consider it worth it so late in the day.

[mutantdevle]

Too late in the day to scumhunt? My oh my.

That is really not what I meant and you know it.

[mutantdevle]

What makes you think Lalendra is town? She's been lurking the entire game and just popping in to sheep and misrep people.

Quantity of posts means nothing to me. I am VERY used to and tolerant of lurkers from my old forum. The quality of Lalendra's posts, however, are something I like. When she is talking, to me, she is talking sense. I agree with a lot of her opinions and she hasn't really done anything to make me think she is scum. Sure, there are flaws in her logic here and there. But everyone has flaws in their logic sometimes so I don't consider her scummy for it.

[mutantdevle]

And I did make a case..

I do remember you saying a few words as to why she is scum. But IIRC, it was mostly just pointing out holes in her pushes and criticising her activity. In general, it just felt OMGUSy. The only thing that I could perhaps consider being scummy is how she didn't reply to your reply to her original case on you. Personally, I just see it as she was never really hard pushing you. If you want to, we can pressure her to reply to that, but I honestly don't see how that would help us right now. If you want me to believe she is scum, make a more detailed case on her pointing to specific posts. It takes walls to change my strong reads, not sentences.

[mutantdevle]

I would do northsidegal if we had way more time. Maybe we can do her tomorrow.

If so then you are also going to have to make a detailed case on her since she is another strong town read of mine.

[mutantdevle]

Also, how do we not have enough time to explore NSG but we do have time to explore Lalendra? Lalendra has only been slightly more mentioned as scum than NSG has and there is no strong case for either of them. It would take a lot to change people's opinions on either of them and I simply think that the time is not there at this stage.

[mutantdevle]

Viomi, before I read your post on Lalendra I had a strong town read on her.

As I had started reading it I was like “well yeah but she just doesn’t seem to follow through with her criticisms”.

Around the mid point I was thinking “hmm, for some reason I remember her having stronger reads than that”.

Then by the end my thoughts were “oh wow she is actually quite scummy”.

Can you make more posts like this in the future Viomi? It gives you real town cred to the point I town lean you now.

Oh and I scum lean Lalendra. She really isn’t scum hunting much at all and she is blatantly hypocritical. My vote is staying where it is now though as I still think Chip is scummier, but consider me in support of the Lalendra wagon and willing to vote if I need to.


Care to respond to Viomi @Lalendra? And whilst you’re at it, give a reads list.

[mutantdevle]

Adding on to that....MD and Creature are nearly locked. For CB, I honestly don't know. He is my third based on interactions and stuff but it is stretching it. If any of them were to change, it would be CB.

Md on the other hand is nearly lock!scum

Speaking of, VOTE: MutantDevle

Reasoning:
MutantantDevle
-Post #24 could be alerting scumbudies to not fall for trap.
-Post #27...I think admitting to the deliberate ambiguity is a town response..calling both forced is the same, scum wouldn’t have contradicted creature’s statement
-Post #35...due to asking for the Texcat claim, can’t be scum with texcat
-Post #41...too defensive, the not asking thing definitely a cop out
-43, saying claim could have a benefit is scummy, how...unspecific, unreasonable actions, faux activity, and sort of disguised setup spec indicate scum
-46/47 doesn’t actually make sense for town. A well thought of argument by scum to try and get the players of them but it’s not working very well.
-47...is hinting at having a power role so that he is not lynched by town but not giving more information away...SCUM
-52/54/55… still too defensive...I also think that the overactivity is for him to be perceived as town/actually scumhunting when he is clearly not.
-67...trying to drop crumbs that he is a doctor I think
-71, I don’t really like the unvote coming out of rvs without having any vote… I need to read Creature once I start getting to his posts but the rvs vote could have been to distance in between scum buddies and the unvote to make sure the wagon did not happen for real

I really dislike this post and that has nothing to do with me but rather that you are placing a vote. Even if you voted anyone else in this game, including yourself, I'd still be mad. You don't know what's happened since page 4 and for all you know anyone could be on L-1. An earlier replacement in this game would have hammered with a reckless vote such as this if the person they replaced had not already been voting for that person. A tip for any game you replace into in the future: never ever vote until you have caught up on everything.

That being said, I think it's both ignorant and arrogant that you could be so confident in your reads on page 4. That just tells me your quick to believe anything and it makes me trust your opinion less already as you have shown a lack of competence and open-mindedness.

So now I guess I must refute your points:

1: Why, as scum, would I do that in the thread when scum have day chat?
2: What? So you're saying one of my responses is town in a list of things that make me scummy?
3: How does texcat not being my scum buddy make me scum in the first place?
4: If you had read past page 4 then you'd know that I respond to just about everything which naturally makes me look defensive. You can check my meta to verify that as well if you'd like. Besides, I would say this post is me justifying and explaining my thoughts rather than being defensive.
5: Again, a simple read past page 4 would show you that I later explain each and every role that could have some benefit of being known to us.
6: In what way does this not make sense for town? Please explain this as you fail to do so. And the reason this is well thought out is that this is exactly what I was thinking about when I asked the original question. Also, post 47 is basic common sense. Additionally, here I explain how a role claim could be a benefit. Does this not in itself refute your 5th point?
7: I'm saying that I am not willing to confirm if I have a PR or not... how is that scummy?
8: Out of all my posts, these are the ones you choose to criticise my overactivity? I have far larger posts than those. But again, defensiveness is not AI for me. Not is overactivity. You only have to look at literally any other game I have been in to see that.
9: Are you trying to say you think I am scum pretending to be a doctor here? You might want to explain your points. Regardless, I was simply refuting the idea that my motivation was the same as scum since my motivation is very much town.
10: I had no strong scum reads at the time and I was in no need to pressure someone. That's the only 2 reasons I place my vote other than as a compromise if time gets low.

Please reply to my refutes and bring up additional points if you must.




I like how you are willing to analyse every single post but could you not wait until after you have read everything to make your points? You'll find a lot of your points have already been adressed later on (or rather earlier on from now) in the thread. So it really is just a waste of time for you to bring those things up again (and in case you aren't aware, we don't exactly have a lot of time left in this day).

[mutantdevle]

Creature, what is your opinion of CommK?

This is like me asking you what your read of yourself is. In both examples, the answer should be obvious unless you're an idiot.

I see what Viomi means about you being scummy. But the thing is, I honestly can't tell if it's that or you just genuinely aren't reading much.

[mutantdevle]

@Creature, @MD....I scumread you in the early game. The complete confidence thing was a joke. I thought you guys understood that considering I was saying "boi" on every other line. Come one. And as for the vote, I did check the vote count. Your fine and not about to be lynched. I just wanted to show progress that I was reading. If you really want

UNVOTE:

Will get back to reading now

It would have been far more appropriate to just say how far you had got instead of making a joke that really wasn't presented as one. To me, 'boi' is just a synonym for 'boy', 'guys' or 'you' depending on the context.

[mutantdevle]

Comm and Viomi have both expressed interest in the Chip wagon, so technically we just need the support of 1 more person for that lynch to be possible.

[mutantdevle]

Okay, so that's theoretical intent to hammer. Assuming those votes go through, @Chip you might wanna start thinking about your final words.

[mutantdevle]

Okay, so that's theoretical intent to hammer. Assuming those votes go through, @Chip you might wanna start thinking about your final words.

Basically, you're scum or VI, and i don't care enough to resist the lynch in this game because lametown. Either way, it's been amusing to watch you jump up and down over me not answering your questions.

CK, Creature, texcat also need scrutiny when I'm dead.

Then maybe you should have done something like... hmm, idk... answered the simple questions I was asking you?

[mutantdevle]

Comm and Viomi have both expressed interest in the Chip wagon, so technically we just need the support of 1 more person for that lynch to be possible.

If you're town, it's your stupid little ego that is driving this. Me not answering your dumbfuck questions really bothered you, didn't it?

Yes. You had no reason to not give a simple answer the first time I asked you a simple question. I'm not ego lynching you, I'm driving this wagon because I firmly believe you are scum. I honestly don't care if I'm wrong, that's part of the game.

[mutantdevle]

Can we not compromise Lynch? Lalendra's slot is scum

Many of us disagree. I'd also like to see more from LUV before we lynch that slot.

[mutantdevle]

Def an ego lynch by Mutant. He's got nothing, exceptvi didn't answer his fool questions. Get out of the way little man, if you're town, and let the rest of us solve the game.

Lack of scum hunting, sheeping, most of your posts are fluff.

If you want me to give examples and analyse your posts then I can, but I don't really see why I should waste the energy. But if you want me to, just say so, and I will tomorrow.


Also, how does my push against you have anything to do with my ego?

[mutantdevle]

The self-meta isn’t doing you any favors Chip. If you don’t want to engage with mutant any further just ignore him and start scum hunting.

Well, I've been scumhunting all along. I was after Viomi until changing my mind about her, and I've been pretty damn clear on my CK/Creature scumreads.

Simply giving reads is not scum hunting. Literally everyone has given reads at some point during the game. The only person it could even be considered that you've scum hunted is Viomi. You never gave any reasons for why you were looking at Viomi as scum and even after I relentlessly questioned you over it you failed to give any reason other than OMGUS, even though there were PLENTY of reasons you could have scum read Viomi at the time.

So you were pushing Viomi in nothing but OMGUS and you gave a few opinions. Not exactly scum hunting by my standards.

[mutantdevle]

@LUV: I'm only being hostile to Mutant, and it's because his post style in this game annoys the fuck out of me.

By posting style you mean "wants people to actually answer his questions instead of purposely avoiding them for several pages"?

Like, I'm hella busy, but I'm making an effort in this game right now because we have a deadline approaching. But I need to get back to RL real soon.

Oh sure, so your increase in activity definitely has nothing to do with the wagon that's grown on you, right?

Suspects for today should be CK, Creature, texcat, and Mutant, in that order. Don't forget the early role fishing. Sometimes VIs roll scum.

By bringing up the role 'fishing' (again) that just seems like you are screaming "I'M DESPERATE, DON'T LISTEN TO MUTANT'S CASE ON ME!"

[mutantdevle]

Can we not compromise Lynch? Lalendra's slot is scum

Many of us disagree. I'd also like to see more from LUV before we lynch that slot.

You just said you agreed with me. What changed about Lalendra's slot to make you disagree?

@mutant: Can you answer this?

Nothing's changed. I meant I disagree that the slot should be a compromise lynch. I think LUV is a very capable player so it's only natural that we give her a chance to redeem the slot.

[mutantdevle]

Now Creature has jumped on this bw as well. Can't people see how scummy he is being? If we can't get CK today (why, oh why?), I can compromise with a Creature lynch.

Come join me on the wagon it's got some nice spaces left.

Personally, I'm not super down with a LUV lynch, largely because they just replaced into a slot I didn't have the strongest of reads on either way.

Then again, I haven't been super paying attention to the thread the past few days. Will take some time tomorrow to read more closely.

What do you think of Chip? Is he scummy, if so, why? Is he town, if so, why? Are you on the fence, if so, why? But just in general would you be willing to compromise lynch him?

[mutantdevle]

With Chip being hostile, I refer to posts like 812, 1493 and 1499 where Chip takes the attitude "I'm not answering your questions because I think you're dumb". This attitude does benefit neither town nor mafia, so I guess it's motivated by his inner personality and therefore genuine. (What does "genuine" mean anyway? It looks like a buzzword that people keep throwing around...)

Or he is scum and just couldn't come up with a reason for his fabricated read. We eventually settled on it being an OMGUS vote but he never actually said that and I was the one who said that. So basically, he has just accepted the reasoning I have given him as his reason for voting Viomi.

[mutantdevle]

Hmmm...you would think that with too many of us playing sheep we'd be able to lynch someone.

So you admit that you are playing sheep this game?

[mutantdevle]

Hmmm...you would think that with too many of us playing sheep we'd be able to lynch someone.

So you admit that you are playing sheep this game?

...are you for real right now?

Yes? Why are you questioning this post?

[mutantdevle]

Kid
Momo
Viomi, CE, Aster, NSG, LUV
tex
CK, Creature

Mutant: prob tunnelling vi. His statistics are based on too small a sample size to be meaningful. Waste of time.
LUV: Based on Lalendra being lynchbait and LUV redeeming the slot a bit.
Viomi: was leaning town but recent push on me was sketchy at times.
Momo: mainly because of Wilky in the slot, and CT to a lesser extent.
Aster: not attracting too much attention. Maybe cruising.
NSG: almost completely under my radar. Need to ISO.
CE: also sliding through quietly.

Hopefully i got all the replacements right...

so just to like

make sure I'm not reading this incorrectly

Your top townread is someone you have literally never directly interacted with (seriously, Ctrl-F Butty's ISO, there isn't a single mention of me or even a quote there) and your 2nd-highest townread is based entirely off a questionable at best read on their predecessors

like... am I reading this wrong because that is, as the kids say, "fucking wack"

Do you see why I want this shit lynched?

[mutantdevle]

Nah, Chip is scummier.

[mutantdevle]

K
VOTE: CommKnight

Not that one.

[mutantdevle]

Y'all are making mistake here.

I'm not prepared to compromise lynch Comm.

[mutantdevle]

Something that I find scummiest about people is when they fail to acknowledge thier own scummy actions. Chip, have you not considered that perhaps the issue is with the way you are presenting yourself rather than me simply being dumb? After all, there is a wagon on you. Surely you’re not trying to suggest that everyone voting for you is idiotic?

[mutantdevle]

Except you didn’t know how to have a decent vote on Viomi.

And you didn’t know how to answer 1 simple fucking question.

[mutantdevle]

Something that I find scummiest about people is when they fail to acknowledge thier own scummy actions. Chip, have you not considered that perhaps the issue is with the way you are presenting yourself rather than me simply being dumb? After all, there is a wagon on you. Surely you’re not trying to suggest that everyone voting for you is idiotic?

If you look up, you'll see a tiny speck in the sky above you. That's me, playing way over your head.

Oh, my apologies. I didn't realise that finding every excuse you can to not justify 1 specific read was an OP strat that I'll never understand.

[mutantdevle]

Regardless of quote, my point stands.

[mutantdevle]

Tbh, I'm not even mad. We were an awful town.

[mutantdevle]

From my position as mafia, I'd like to thank mutantdevle and CommKnight for giving away their roles through softing,

It wasn't even intentional :'(

I'm glad I stopped your vig kill on texcat before my death though. For the record, I chose texcat then based on my statistics.

Here is the message I sent to Elmo:

Statistics suggest that the most common pattern in death relating to 2 players is that scum will kill 1 above or below their previously killed player on the draft list. Obviously, I can't protect myself and CityElectric just isn't worth saving. Besides, this would only occur if scum killed either of us because we are a threat with our reads. CityEletric hasn't said much and my reads are clearly wrong for Chip to be town. I'm also SUPER lynch bait-y now. So basically, not too worried about that.

Comm is the obvious choice for the night kill and best case scenario is if they go for it. However, I have no intention of protecting Comm. Comm said that they were not an investigative role and that their role would be useless if it was exposed. I reinforced the idea Comm was an investigative even after he said this to hopefully trick the scum :3. Based on this information, specifically the part he is useless if claimed, the only 4 roles he could be are Vengeful, 1-Shot PGO, Doctor or 1-Shot Commuter. Obviously, he is not the doctor since I am so that just leaves 3. Commuter has NEVER been chosen let alone picked so I'm ruling that out despite the survival priority aspect aligning with Comm's play. That leaves Vengeful and PGO. Since there is a chance he is a PGO and almost definitely going to use his ability tonight, that's both why I wanted him to live to see tonight and am not protecting him. However, I'm inclined to think he is the Vengeful as that is more useless than PGO if claimed. If he is Vengeful, then that makes him seem a little scummier to me. If scum, then I'd hope for a vig kill. If town, scum kill.

So that limits my options down to just the likely PRs. I was going to protect NSG again but I'm doubting my town read on her. Something that was super compelling for me though was my statistics. In 4 out of the 12 previous games, the #1 in the draft order gets night killed. In 100% of those games, this occurs on night 2. If texcat is town and the scum plan to kill her, it will happen tonight.

!protect texcat

If any of these are the scenario tomorrow then I'll be sad:
I am night killed. I'm not usually so arrogant but I feel that my role is important (not so sure about my opinions though). Like, I really hope they don't pick up on my accidental doc crumbs.

Comm is a town PGO and is vig killed so a town vig dies too.

Comm is town and is the only one who dies.

2 townies die. (either by an incorrect Comm revenge kill or the scum have a vig; ESPECIALLY the latter).


If any of these are the scenario tomorrow then I'll be happy:
No one dies. This means I can confirm textcat as town. Since Chip was the JK there would be no other cause of no kill. This also means that if I am pushed to L-1 I can role claim as doctor and confirm texcat as town. This means I would be night killed N3 and texcat would be killed N4. However, on D4 texcat would be able to reveal who they used their abilities on each night to boost the town. (unless they have a vig in which case RIP).

Comm is town and is shot by the mafia and kills a scum.

Comm is scum and gets vig killed but no one else dies. This again confirms to me texcat is town with the added benefit of scum dying also.




Also pretty sure Aster is scum. They seemed a little frustrated that my play day 1 wasn't getting me votes day 2. This sounds like scum who wanted me NK but only kept me alive as lynch bait. I'm not going to mention this unless I am forced to role claim though.

I can't help but notice that my read of the game (first 2 paragraphs) was blatantly wrong, but my gut feelings and statistic-based analysis was almost perfectly spot on.


Once the PT's are released I will add all the information in this game to my statistics. Because clearly, they are useful. My lesson I can take away from this game is to be more careful and not accidentally crumb my role like a complete dumbass.

[mutantdevle]

Oh yeah, and I probably shouldn't blatantly discount that the universal backup is a role.

[mutantdevle]

i enjoyed playing with you, mutant – hope to see you around some time.

i probably played a better game in the scum pt than in the actual game thread – i think you'll all enjoy reading through it.

Thank you :3 I'll definitely be around and I look forward to reading the scum PT.

[mutantdevle]

Oh yeah, and I probably shouldn't blatantly discount that the universal backup is a role.

Definitely. The universal backups was among the biggest concerns of the mafia. We already knew the doctor and the cop by N1, but we let both of them live. Why? If we were to kill either of them, their role would most likely be taken over by the universal backup (who has a really high probability of existing) and then by D2 we'd still have a doctor/cop, but this time without knowing who they are.

As long as the UB was unsaturated, going after powerroles was meaningless. This shoved our powerrole hunting back by a whole day and caused real problems in getting rid of texcat.

I reinforced the idea Comm was an investigative even after he said this to hopefully trick the scum :3

An amazing move ^^ *applause*

Scum was aware that there was a really high probability of the #1 player being targeted during N2. We've got a lot of statistics in the scumthread ^^

The #1 player was a NK target in 4 out of the 6 games which reached N2 and didn't have scum in the #1 spot.

Of course you'd be aware of this which, made us hesitant going after texcat N2, because you'd definitely protect her if you weren't preoccupied with protecting the claimed cop CommKnight. We decided to try anyway because (1) we hoped that you'd be preoccupied with protecting CommKnight whom you believed to be the cop, and (2) texcat would be difficult to dispose of before N4 anyhow and she had a high risk of finding scum tonight.

If it wasn't for us thinking you could be preoccupied protecting CommKnight, we wouldn't have bothered going after texcat. (In hindsight, I think going after texcat was a stupid idea to begin with, but oh well.)

So, well done!

Also pretty sure Aster is scum. They seemed a little frustrated that my play day 1 wasn't getting me votes day 2.

I was frustrated? ._.

I actually wanted to keep you alive until we saturated the universal backup. Which is also why I jumped off your wagon later in D1 — scum was trying to try to lynch you until we realised that we had completely overlooked the universal backup threat, after which we switched to "there is no need to lynch mutant, but no need to particularly disrupt the already existing bandwagon either."

I'm glad I tricked you enough to prevent your vig kill but not enough to get you to kill CommKnight, though obviously, you knew texcat was the cop. Not that killing comm/sheep would have mattered anyway since he wasted his ability :3

And obviously, I was wrong about you being frustrated (as I realised when Elmo told us the reason you didn't kill me N1 in the dead PT). But I still think I would have scum read you late game based on how I would have been assuming you were frustrated and hence seeing everything you say in a scummier light

[mutantdevle]

kek

[mutantdevle]

Thanks Elmo <3

[mutantdevle]

Neighbour PT isn’t accessible

[mutantdevle]

I finally got around to reading the scum PT and it was certainly an interesting read :P. I enjoyed getting the feedback on my play. I've improved a lot since starting this game and I look forward to playing with said new experience with y'all in the future. I'm a little sad I didn't get the scum role PM this game because Aster and NSG seem like my ideal scum partners :3.