Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[ProHawk]

Gah, DV really isn't looking so hot, he pretty much retreated into the corner and still hasn't refuted Boring's observation which I haven't even had a chance to look at yet so I'm prob good with him being the lynch today. Still think Kelb is his partner though.

[DeasVail]

Eh, I actually thought that was the hammer. In terms of boring’s post, I don’t have much to say. She posted links to games arguing that this is more like a previous scum game than previous town games. I am town here so there are probably non-alignment related reasons why that is the case. And I’m okay with voting Kelbris.VOTE: kelbris

[DeasVail]

uh what?

Anyway, I think that's the hammer. Good luck guys, my guess would be boring and then kelbris, given the weird 180 from liking my points on boring to then using a post of boring's as an excuse to change his read of me. I'm sorry that I didn't get into this game as much as I should have.

I don't like this post. It feels forced and as though it is trying to give the impression "hey look at me, I must be town if I didn't confess to being scum after I thought I had been lynched." I'm fairly certain most people's first impressions to reading this was "he hasn't been hammered though..." I certainly knew you hadn't been lynched yet and I feel like everyone else would as well. After all, the difference between 3 or 4 votes isn't exactly hard to keep track of. My point is, this post doesn't feel as though you even believed you had just been hammered. This gives the impression you are scum looking for town cred. I can't help but think that if you were a townie who believed they had just been misslynched you'd have a bit more to say than this.

For some reason I thought one of you/Fitz was voting for me. I don’t know why.

[ProHawk]

Eh, I actually thought that was the hammer. In terms of boring’s post, I don’t have much to say. She posted links to games arguing that this is more like a previous scum game than previous town games. I am town here so there are probably non-alignment related reasons why that is the case. And I’m okay with voting Kelbris.VOTE: kelbris

Like it doesn't bother you that the association is incorrect here?

[ProHawk]

Isn't Awost normally a fire-cracker?

[ProHawk]

Ignore that last post.

[DeasVail]

Eh, I actually thought that was the hammer. In terms of boring’s post, I don’t have much to say. She posted links to games arguing that this is more like a previous scum game than previous town games. I am town here so there are probably non-alignment related reasons why that is the case. And I’m okay with voting Kelbris.VOTE: kelbris

Like it doesn't bother you that the association is incorrect here?

I've made the same mistake before, where I've been convinced that a player's alignment matches their scum meta, when actually they're town and different for some unrelated reason. And for this reason, while meta will sometimes influence my reads, I tend not to go digging for it, as I will be going in with a certain mindset and see what I want to see, if that makes sense. I think it also doesn't help here given that 2/3 of the games linked (including the scum game) are from 2015, and I've changed a lot as a person since that time.

Due to the above, I don't think that the linking of previous games from boring is scummy by itself. But I think boring is scum for other reasons.

[ProHawk]

What I am actually more interested in is...

comparing his play in this game to the games that boring linked

What exactly in the comparison stood out enough to trust your scum-read and not be suspicious that they were blowing smoke?

[boring]

Okay fellas, if I were Dead and Kelbris, I wouldn't enjoy town dragging this out.

Is there anything else for us to discuss today? Anyone have questions for the PRs?

I think we have this game wrapped up, but in case we don't, I'd appreciate both Fitz and Mutant leaving their last impressions for the day before the hammer.

[boring]

Sorry. Phone auto corrected me.

*If I were Deas and Kelbris

[ProHawk]

Why can't we kill freaking Obv-Scum first? This makes no sense to me.

[DeasVail]

Probably because they're scum together, at least that's what I've been thinking since the kelbris vote on me.

[ProHawk]

Like literally, is there anyone here who doesn't think that Kelbris is scum?

[boring]

They're both obv. scum. I'd rather do Deas first, for a few reasons. But if the confirmed towns want to do Kelbris first, it's no big deal.

Reasons:
1. He's the obv. scum with more experience at this game, going by join date. That means he's more likely to competently make it through to endgame.

2. That meta difference is pretty convincing. It's not like I cherry picked that shit. These were literally the first two completed town games I found, and the first scum game I found. I was just looking to see if he used a lot of lie-tells in his language as town too, and I only stumbled across the stark difference in play styles by accident. It's as close to evidence as I've ever seen a meta dive produce.

3. I think we're all aware that we've had some really, really bad townies in this game. Kelbris is slightly more likely to be bad town than Deas. If they're both that awful, then we never stood a chance in the first place.

[mutantdevle]

I don't think it's best to hammer yet. Sure there isn't a whole lot to discuss but there's no rush to end the day either. Every new post is something we can potentially learn from. Besides, I'm sure there a few topics we could still talk about. Eg:


Almost all of y'all seem to be sucking up to us PR's. Could we have less of that please? It just makes you all look like you want town cred. It's interesting how practically all of you have pretty much excluded ProHawk from the lynch pool on the assumption I have a town result on him. But you forget there is only a 1 in 3 chance that is true. Like I've said, this gives me the impression y'all are sucking up to us PR's. By not considering ProHawk, it gives the impression that y'all are scum playing it safe; which is the playstyle we can assume they are playing. Obviously, you can't all be scum for doing that so I'm interested to know what is everyone's reads on ProHawk?

On the topic of people that most of us have passed off as town, what are everyone's reads on fishy? I think it is important that we explore everyone's thoughts on everyone.

[havingfitz]

I agree no rush to hammer.

I don't see any sucking up. I do see people asking for thoughts from confirmed town, which is nice to have.

I would like a chance to look over the non-prs one last time and give reads before anyone hammers. Can probably be done nlt tomorrow.

[Fishythefish]

@mutant: I'm not quite sure what you mean by "sucking up to the PRs". You two are confirmed town - so naturally people are going to a) not accuse you of stuff and b) value your opinions.

My read on ProHawk is here. Today, he's looked fine - his posting mirrors my thinking, except I'm slightly more sure on DV and less on kelbris; I think kelbris could reasonably be town playing only to survive.

Thinking about it, I'm slightly wary of fitz and mutant giving reads on players they have possible information on. There's no reason to give scum hints as to which PR is which.

[havingfitz]

I'm slightly wary of fitz and mutant giving reads on players they have possible information on.

I'll factor claims in. boring is only slightly cleared by mine and mutant's claimed tracks on her N2.

And I'll give my view on ProHawk which can be digested for relevence tomorrow.

mutant has no reason to assess ProHawk as he "might" have a clear track OR investigation on him.

[ProHawk]

Almost all of y'all seem to be sucking up to us PR's.

sucking up? rofl...

I still want you to answer my question

[mutantdevle]

Almost all of y'all seem to be sucking up to us PR's.

sucking up? rofl...

I still want you to answer my question

What question?

[ProHawk]

Just throwing this out there:

The scum decided not to attempt to fake claim a PR, so I think we can conclude that they are not really risk takers.

Just curious, had they fake-claimed a PR, what would your plan have been exactly?

[mutantdevle]

I don’t get why you’d want an answer to that question so badly if you’re only motive is curiosity but all right,

I’ve been considered town by practically everyone all game so I felt comfortable making such a gambit. The motive behind the gambit was clear and I’m sure everyone would have seen that.

[ProHawk]

I would have lynched you no questions asked. JSYK

[DeasVail]

They're both obv. scum. I'd rather do Deas first, for a few reasons. But if the confirmed towns want to do Kelbris first, it's no big deal.

Reasons:
1. He's the obv. scum with more experience at this game, going by join date. That means he's more likely to competently make it through to endgame.

2. That meta difference is pretty convincing. It's not like I cherry picked that shit. These were literally the first two completed town games I found, and the first scum game I found. I was just looking to see if he used a lot of lie-tells in his language as town too, and I only stumbled across the stark difference in play styles by accident. It's as close to evidence as I've ever seen a meta dive produce.

3. I think we're all aware that we've had some really, really bad townies in this game. Kelbris is slightly more likely to be bad town than Deas. If they're both that awful, then we never stood a chance in the first place.

How am I such a bad townie? Sure, this game has been pretty bad by my standards in terms of reads and engagement, at least earlier in the game, but you’re comment that I’m awful if I’m town doesn’t seem justified, and I think it reveals that you’re scum here, considering that if you were town I don’t think you’d feel good enough about your own town game here to call other people awful town. If you’re town then misreading me is on you, it’s not my fault. Just as it’s my fault if I’m wrong about you here, but I really don’t think I am.

[DeasVail]

I also don’t believe your apparent confidence in the reads at all, especially after you claimed to be just as confident in Transcend, were wrong, and then later said something along the lines of never being 100% confident in your reads. The only reason for such hyperbole here would be if you were scum here trying really hard to convince everyone else that you actually believe what you’re saying.