Mini Normal 1963 - List Mod Mafia Game Over

[skitter30]

@mod: always v/la on Friday and Saturday.

VOTE: Sergtacos

Hi

[skitter30]

Skitter made a wagon

And ...?

[skitter30]

Skitter made a wagon

And ...?

Like, are you going somewhere with this, or are you just making inane observations?

At least 1 scum between Dany/Wicked

What happened to HEM? (And Serg too I suppose)?

I don't see it. Flubber is a better wagon.

Are you serious about this?

[skitter30]

Sorry, meant this:

I don't see it. Flubber is a better wagon.

Are you serious about this?

That I would rather wagon flubber? Yes. Not sure why we're wagoning HEM tbh.

I guess what I'm getting at is why do you want to wagon Flubber?

(I'm also not finding the HEM wagon particularly interesting or relevant atm).

[skitter30]

Maybe because there's not really any town reason to claim scum?

There isn't really any scum reason to claim scum?

Why are you and Sephiroth taking that post seriously when it was clearly a joke?

Skitter made a wagon

And ...?

Like, are you going somewhere with this, or are you just making inane observations?

why so defensive?

I'm not being defensive. I'm trying to figure out

a) if that post had a point and why you didn't make it at the time

b) if that post didn't have a point and why you bothered to post it at all.

Basically I'm trying to figure out if that was a legitimate observation directed towards some purpose or if you're just saying things in an attempt to look busy.

[skitter30]

It's possible I misunderstood, but even so, this is a game of mafia, and to beleive what someone says at face value during the RVS is a little ludicrous.

So why? Why would someone claim scum? Even in RVS, what might someone be thinking when they claim that?

Town should never lie

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Scum claiming scum is scum and should be lynched
Town claiming scum is lying and should be lynched

Also if you have such a problem with that post, and such strong feelings about it, why the delayed reaction? Why didn't you push it immediately after he said it, instead of waiting for someone else to push it and hopping onto that push?

[skitter30]

Um, it's page two? I'm pretty sure nobody looks busy...

Don't be embarrassed that you were the first one to sheep a vote.

At some point, a wagon will have to have been started . . . that's kinda the point if we're trying to lynch someone. Why is that something to be embarassed about? Like unless you were making some deeper observation that I still don't understand, I don't get why you're commenting on the fact that I started a wagon. You were giving a general summary about something relatively inconsequential without explaining why it's important or why I should care. You weren't adding anything by making that post, which is why I'm saying it make it look like you were trying to look busy.

And I'm not embarrassed about being the first one to sheep a vote? It's RVS and idgaf about starting a two-person wagon in post 11. I was saying hi to Serg cuz he's awesome.

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

Wait are you now claiming that you thought I was scum in 13? What on earth were you basing that conclusion on? And if you think I'm scum, why aren't you voting me?

[skitter30]

Also if you have such a problem with that post, and such strong feelings about it, why the delayed reaction? Why didn't you push it immediately after he said it, instead of waiting for someone else to push it and hopping onto that push?

shhh wait until he posts again

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

OK, he posted, and you've since posted, so can you answer this?

And can you explain what you mean by the fact that you apparently were scumreading me in 13?

[skitter30]

Maybe because there's not really any town reason to claim scum?

There isn't really any scum reason to claim scum?

Why are you and Sephiroth taking that post seriously when it was clearly a joke?

I mean, was it clearly a joke? Maybe. But we're less than 24 hours into Day 1 and if you've noticed Flub hasn't shown up to say anything since. I'm taking it seriously in that its a good enough reason to start a D1 wagon that actually generates discussion. Whether I'm taking it seriously enough to say that I think Flub is scum, obviously not yet. That may change depending on the their next post though. That's kind of the point of an early D1 wagon...see something worth attacking, wagon, see what happens. I think claiming non-town is worth probing, don't you?

I think it was clearly a joke because I see absolutely no scum motivation in scum seriously claiming in their first post. I don't think the activity thing is per se relevant. It had been like eight hours on a Sunday. From what I know about him, I can see him doing that as a reaction test as town to see who would jump on it.

What do you think about Wossi's reaction?

Tbh I'm more concerned about Serg's miller claim, cuz we just played a game together where a miller hardclaimed like in their first post and got major towncred from it and proceeded to coast through the game. (He was a legit miller though).

[skitter30]

Not convinced that the miller claim is real, leaning towards it being fake. Also not convinced that it's AI if it's fake. I could see scum!Taco claiming it based on how Mini Normal 1946 worked out. I can also see town!Taco fake-claiming it for the lolz. I have little to no confidence in my ability to read him.

Taco, why are you pushing HEM atm?

Chip, why are you making a series of RVS votes and unvotes? What do you think about the Flubber thing?

Implosion, I like your posting, and agree with most of it. Why the townlean on Tacos?

Scumlean on wossi.

VOTE: wossi

[skitter30]

Skitter

Why did you wait to vote wosi?

Firstly, I appreciate the irony of this question.

Secondly, vc + taco's posts made me realize I was voting him when I didn't particularly want to be since I don't think anything he's said is particularly AI for him, so I moved it to my only scumlean of consequence.

[skitter30]

Flubber: I don't mind people poking there. I think town tend to avoid jokes like that because there's no upside and they don't need the aggravation. Scum, otoh, see an upside in getting pseudo towncred if they can get through the initial wave of suspicion.

In fact, let's increase the heat a little:

VOTE: Flubber

What does this mean? Why would scum get towncred if they can get through the initial wave of suspicion? And if people actually get towncred from doing this, why would town not do that to also get towncred? From this explanation, I don't get why what he did is AI or why you're voting him.

Like, this is blatantly not happening; most people are kinda sketchy on Flubber atm.

Everyone's saying that they don't like it but I still don't get why scum does this.

[skitter30]

Not me

VOTE: flubbernugget
Seems like a pretty open and shut case to me.

Vote HEM please

Serg, 2inamil, and Flubbernugget deserve attention today.

I love attention

but hey lets sheep. VOTE: Flubbernugget

What changed about HEM that you went from trying to get votes on him to sheeping him?

[skitter30]

First HEM. RVS vote but unvoted when his wagon took off for no reason.

What's your opinion on HEM atm?

Guys, how do you classify bullshit vote reasons? Scum or town?

What does this mean and what are you referring to? I feel like this question is too general to have any meaningful answers.

Will Flubber get to L-1? That is the question.

I don't think he's done anything L-1 worthy, nor do I like the fact that you're implying we should put him there.

I also REALLY don't like Post 68 from twoinamillion. The reasoning seems manufactured and they had JUST finished trying to shut down any discussion involving Flub's claim. Seems a little sketchy to interpret Flub's post that way and turn it into a vote.

He usually seems super scummy as town, and tends to place votes for really bizarre, nonsensical reasons that just look super scummy. I don't think anything you've said here is AI for him.

please explain how claiming scum is a gambit.

to anyone asking why I'm voting flubber and not skitter: there's power in wagons and there's more then one scum.

I'm pretty sure he was doing a reaction test to see who is going to use that as a fairly thin excuse to opportunistically push him, kinda like how you, HEM, Chip, and Serg are doing. You still failed to explain why I'm scummy, or how you figured that out by post 13. You've also neglected to explain why you had a strong, delayed reaction to Flubber. I don't get why you waited until someone else pushed him if you feel so strongly on the subject.

Nothing with my reasoning. Both of these votes have weak reasoning.

You're characterizing my vote as weak but are also neglecting to consider the context that came before that (specifically 38, 40, and 42).

[skitter30]

@wave:

What does the following line mean to you?

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

[skitter30]

Wossi demonstrated an unusual amount of confidence in his skitter scum read on page two

...Where? And what is an "unusual amount of confidence" anyway? Pointing out something suspicious and placing a vote?

* he exhibits strong feelings about 'claiming scum' = 'scum' (a position that I think is unfounded), and hops on Flubber,

but only after HEM and Sephiroth start a thing there

* I point out this is odd and ask why he had a delayed reaction to something he apparently feels strongly about

*he responds by saying that he was distracted by having been excited by voting scum (me) in RVS, but fails to explain how or why I'm scummy

* I point out that he hasn't backed up his scumread on me (in fact, in my admittedly biased opinion, I don't think I said anything AI at that point). He actually placed a vote on me before I even posted, so you can't argue that his initial vote was based on anything I did. I would argue 'unusual amount of confidence' here means that he used his confidence in a post 13 scumread as an explanation for why he failed to push Flubber immediately. (13 because he said he failed to push Flubber in that post - his first post after Flubber did his thing - because he already has a scumread by that time).

I fail to understand why this reasoning is a reachy explanation for a vote at thus point in the game, so I don't understand why you dislike wicked's vote. I can understand the argument that it's derivative, because I made the point several pages before he did, but I don't think it can be classified as 'reachy.

Also, if you think this is reachy, I don't understand why you aren't objecting to like all the votes on the Flubber wagon, which are, for the most part, based on very thin reasoning, nor do I understand why you failed to argue that my vote was reachy when I had made a similar argument.

[skitter30]

Maybe I'm just slow but I see literally nothing AI here

Also, wasn't this over the course of, what, a few hours? It'd be one thing if he called Flubber scummy in October and voted him in December, but your definition of delayed reaction is a bit too stringent for real life. Not everything happens all at once in forum mafia

This case is the actual definition of reachy, btw. But it's the early game, most cases are bound to be reachy. Reachiness alone does not a scum make, as I explain farther down ⬇ You're focusing too much on the reachiness aspect and ignoring when I said he's parking his vote on an already forming wagon

According to Wossi, claiming scum means that Flubber is scum. I think if he actually believed this, he would have mentioned it and pushed it during the first possible oppurtunity. Instead, he waited until other people, like Sephiroth, made the push. It kinda looks like he waited for the push to become legitimized by other people and hopped on when it seemed like no one was objecting. His actions ('hopping on to the Flubber wagon only once other people made it a thing') don't match his stated beliefs ('claiming scum means that Flubber is scum'). His Flubber vote reeks of opportunism, which is scummy to me.

What I meant by 'delayed reaction' is not the fact that it happened an hour and a half later so much as he had the opportunity to react to something, failed to do so, and started pushing it once other people were pushing it too.

And I'm not arguing that reachy is scummy. I'm arguing that waiting for a wagon to form before opportunistically hopping on is scummy. (We're actually arguing the same thing here, just you're applying it to Wicked and I'm applying it to Wossi).

This is false btw. If you don't believe his reasons (he thought you were defensive and didn't like you starting a wagon) is one thing but to say he has no explanation is untrue

I didn't say he didn't have any explanations for why he thinks I'm scum. I'm saying that his stated reasons are bad in that they don't actually explain a scumlean. I wasn't defensive and he failed to show where he thought I was being defensive. I don't think that starting a wagon in RVS is AI. He gave reasons why he didn't like me, but they weren't credible because he hasn't actually backed them up (defensive), or weren't AI (starting a wagon). In fact, the 'defensive' thing just looks like he's throwing a accusation at me instead of actually talking with me or answering the question.

Now WickedJr, who said absolutely nothing to or about Wossi in the very early game, then was suddenly Mr. "hey i think this Wossi guy is horrible and I believe these other four people who coincidentally are already voting him are astute mafia players whom I agree with wholeheartedly. Let me draw up some reasons Wossi is a scumlord and slap my vote there too" is the worst among them in my view. (aka Mr. I'm going to do nothing for a long time then vote Wossi 90 minutes after Nexus posts a VC showing him to be at L-3. Was the vote based on Wossi's play? Or opportunism?)

This is obviously operating under the assumption that Wossi is town, which currently I am for a wide variety of reasons - some gut, some logical, some meta, and not the least of which is the speed of the growth of his wagon.

What makes Wicked's vote worse than Taco's? Tacos also said nothing to or about Flubber before his L-2 on the Flubber wagon, beyond asking Sephiroth to switch his vote from Flubber to HEM.

"hey i think this Wossi guy is horrible and I believe

these other four people who coincidentally are already voting him are astute mafia players whom I agree with wholeheartedly

. Let me draw up some reasons Wossi is a scumlord and slap my vote there too"

Bolded never happened. He didn't say that anywhere.

[skitter30]

@wavemode:

I'm pretty sure we're just going to go around in circles so I think I'm going to drop it cuz I've already made my point. If you want me to continue to go line by line I can.

To summarize: I kinda feel like you're deflecting away from the wossi wagon, and I feel like the reasoning you're applying to wicked can be applied to nearly all the votes cast thus far. I don't per se like wicked's vote, and I don't per se dislike it. It just kinda is. However, imo it is not nearly the 'reachiest' or 'sketchiest' vote in the thread.

[skitter30]

Any given wagon is more likely to be on Town than Scum, just given random chance.

This is true. If we simulated a game and votes were placed at random on various players, a resulting wagon is more likely to be on town, since there are more town players.

However . . . we aren't placing votes randomly. We're basing votes by analyzing behavior and trying to determine if its scummy or not. If the playerlist agrees that person A is scummy, person A is more likely to have votes placed on them, than, say, person B who is relatively townread.

Your statement is irrelevant in the context of an actual game where votes are placed for non-random reasons.

[skitter30]

Unvote. Vote: TwoInAMillion

for already misreading. Pretty sure he wasn't criticizing wavemode.

I thought I wasn't going to be able to talk about this because of ongoing games, but 1954 ended yesterday.

Wicked, how would you characterize Two here in relation to that game?

[skitter30]

VOTE: wossi

This vote is like really, really bad. Naked voting for L-1 (well now L-2 since dany unvoted after)? Um, no.

It was mostly just early game pressure. Having said that, I don't think I've ever made that kind of joke as either alignment but i could maybe imagine doing it as scum. The thought being that maybe people would think along the lines that it might create the inpression of being town by virtue of being relaxed enough to make a joke like that. Hence 'pseudo cred', cred not based on anything real. As town i wouldn't want the aggro from the initial wave of suspicion because it would just distract from scumhunting.

I like this, and I think it is a reasonable explanation for your vote on Flubber at that time; probably one of the better reasoned votes on the wagon.

I'll catch up reading and see if i want to change my vote. I see wossi is the fashionable wagon now.

In contrast, I dislike this, since it seems like you're opportunistically looking for a popular wagon to join.

I was mostly just red flagged by her defensiveness to early day one poking/prodding/meaningless accusations. There wasn't much else to go on. I wanted to see if I could gauge some more reactions from her, hence the ambiguity. But I'm liking her more recent postings.

a) I still don't think I was defensive

b) I dislike that you're characterizing your questions as 'meaningless accusations' - I pointed out that some of your posting appears to be undirected towards no specific purpose, and is just kinda there for the purpose of being there. 'meaningless accussations' sounds like you're admitting that you're making accusations that are unfounded. Like I said, that's at best busy work, and at worst misrepping people or attacking people for no good reason. I'm having a hard time seeing why town makes 'meaningless accusations'.

I'm also low-key disconcerted that a lot of people are townreading me and are like agreeing with me; I usually just say what I think, and it tends to be harder than this for me to get people to agree with me. Like the things I say tend to be viewed as more controversial/disputed than what's happening right now, and I'm finding it to be a little weird that *a lot* of people are agreeing with me and my arguments

[skitter30]

Unvote. Vote: TwoInAMillion

for already misreading. Pretty sure he wasn't criticizing wavemode.

I thought I wasn't going to be able to talk about this because of ongoing games, but 1954 ended yesterday.

Wicked, how would you characterize Two here in relation to that game?

His play here looks similar to that game. The only difference that I can see is that he seems to be misreading quite a bit in this game; his reasons for voting monkey/Seph seem wrong and he also accidentally voted the wrong person before voting Seph. I'm not sure if this is because he's genuinely missing things or if he's scum that just doesn't care about understanding what's happening in the game. It's difficult to say because he has no scum games to look at. Right now he's a neutral for me, very slight town lean if anything.

What do you think about him?

I think he just naturally looks incredibly scummy, and that's really, really hard to diffrentiate between bad/scummy town play and actual scum play from him.

Thus far, I don't think anything he's done is AI or out of his town meta. He tends to misead things and draw, quite frankly, bizarre conclusions. I don't disagree that it's bad or scummy. I just don't know if it makes him scum.

He's hard-null atm, and I don't think I can read him directly. I think I have to try to sort him indirectly. If he's town, he's lynchbait, and I imagine that scum would try to lynch him at some point; I imagine we'd see oppurtunistic votes on him, or people trying to distance themselves from his wagon by whiteknighting him. Both of these things happened in 1954, and I called them out both times. If he's scum, I think both of those are less likely to happen.

I was actually kinda surprised that you made that vote, since we legit just wagoned him for this sort of behavior, and he was town there.

[skitter30]

Man is it just me or do both wagons feel exactly like early D1 wagons that stuck around too long? I don't think anyone has given a convincing reason to lynch either wossi or flub.

Flubber yes, Wossi no. I think several reasons have been given why Wossi is scummy, and they're all pretty good ones at this stage of the game. He also hasn't really rebutted any of them, although tbf, he said he was busy irl

I like the evolution of Seph's read on

Two

flubber

Danny and Wicked both look somewhat generically town but could both easily be me misreading a playstyle.

This is how I feel about them too, and to a certain, but lesser extent, you and Seph as well. You're all pushing the right things imo, and taking reasonable positions. I'm just slightly concerned that I'm biased towards townreading all four of you because you're pushibg things that I agree with.

207

+1

[skitter30]

Wavemode's misrepresentation of skitter's scum read on wosi as a function of time as opposed to events is extremely dishonest. I expect a wosi scum flip to implicate wave.

Wave is probably town because I'm only taking issue with one of their pushes. Even if I don't like their pushes, as per their recollection of the game I played with him I'm willing to offer the benefit of the doubt that there's a method to their madness.

I feel like these two quotes don't really match exactly. You vehemently dislike Wave's argument and accuse him of misrepping me to the point where you make assocatives between scum!wossi and wave, but I kinda feel like the strength of this sentiment was walked back in the second quote after people pushed back against the initial quote.

I don't like that Wossi has checked in since the wagon really built on him (190) and still hasn't felt the need to claim. If he's town I think he needs to do that, and RL can't be the issue here because it takes less time to claim than it did to write up that post

I agree that it kinda looks like Wossi is lurking a bit, but he did state that he was busy irl and that he would be here tomorrow. I disagree that he needed to claim during that post, as I don't think anyone was planning on lynching him before he got back.

I almost feel like you're voting him to pressure him to claim, which I think is premature since he said he'd be here tomorrow. I don't think your vote on him is accomplishing much, since I think we need to listen to his defense before we decide whether to let the lynch (and the presumable claim) happen.

Yes, I read the post. When he says "don't lynch me until Friday," that's a pretty clear sign that he is reading the thread and chose not to respond to his accusers yet. Claiming seems prudent in that situation.

To be fair, the last time he posted, he was at L-2, and just a cursory skimming of the thread would indicate that a lot of people are finding him sketchy. I find it plausible that he might have time to skim along but not post a reasonable defense.

I'm more interested in why you're having a problem with 190 and not 117, when he was also at L-2, and was engaging with the thread, but didn't feel the need to post any sort of reasonable defense or rebuttal. In 190, he said he was busy irl, which is why he wasn't posting. In 117, he was similarly in a place where a lot of people were open to wagoning him, was active in the thead, but deliberately ignored most of the points raised against him.

[skitter30]

Has there any claimings, wagons, I missed? Anyone kind enough to put me back into the game?

I think you were here for the buildup of the wossi wagon. There's a lot of support for it, and he hasn't really posted much of consequence since then; he's said he's busy until tomorrow.

Wave thinks he's town and started a push on wicked, which a lot of people had a lot of questions about. Lalendra asked Wossi to claim this morning.

Serg fake-claimed miller a while back, and retracted it.

FWIW, I agree with you on Flubber; he's actually one of my stronger townleans.

[skitter30]

Mafia have day talk and they are able to perform any factional kill alongside their other actions, if necessary.

Someone should read the OP

[skitter30]

My eyes rolled so far back that I felt my brain touch my iris.

I was kidding. But I'm still on the lookout for well-curated posts because it screams day chat editing. I'm also not wrong.

I don't think word-count in general is a scumtell. Some people post one-liners. Some people post paragraphs. Like the length of my posts has absolutely nothing to do with my alignment (the number of posts I make on the other hand . . . . )

While I agree that this is a thing that could happen (heck, I did it in 1946), I don't think that well-curated posts are inherently a scumtell. People could just be good at writing.

Now, if someone who usually spam-posts one-liners randomly wrote a long post filled with paragraphs, capitalization and long-winded explanations, I would find that sketchy.

Two, I legit have no idea what you're going on about.

You're accusing him of setting up mislynches based on word count, but I don't think anyone here would let a lynch go through solely using that reasoning. Like I don't think that would ever actually happen, so I don't think he'd actually try to push long-posts = scum. He's making a general observation, yes. Do I think it's unfounded, yes. Do I think he's seriously going to push people based on that, no. So do I think he's using this to set-up mislynches, no.

This last exchange has dropped you from hard-null to scumlean.

[skitter30]

Two, you feel like scum who wants to gain favor with the town with statements that make it look like you're thinking about the game when you're actually not.

[skitter30]

Ok, can you give examples?

And you legit just accused him of trying to set up mislynches, so I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make. No this will never cause a mislynch. But you accused him of using this to set up one. This makes it sound like you're trying to push him for the sake of pushing him instead of trying to think about whether or not it actually makes sense, because that's like never going to happen.

[skitter30]

Above, it sounds like you were accusing him of trying to set-up mislynches.

[skitter30]

Above, it sounds like you were accusing him of trying to set-up mislynches.

*sigh* My point was that that is what could happen if he followed through with his line of logic.

No one here is ever going to let him lynch anyone based on word-count. It's such a bizarre thing to suggest that it looks like you're trying to throw any old accusation at him to see what might stick so that it looks like you're thinking about the game when you're actually not.

[skitter30]

I don't get your scumread on wicked.

[skitter30]

I think this line of argument winds up being fairly wifom but for the record I don't think serg-scum was too worried about the consequences.

I was scum with Serg in 1946. He's a lot more self-aware than he might appear to be, and was actually pretty cognizant about the reactions his actions might instigate; he'd talk to his partners a lot and run things by us to make sure he didn't look scummy. (ie 'should I lolhammer?'). If anything, I think that town!taco is less worried about how he looks to others. He also, like, tried to look more invested, even as he played up the stoner dude persona. Like he tried to look like he was contributing and scumhunting, but played up being high so that people wouldn't take what he was saying *that* seriously.

With Wossi to me it seems the wagon is built on him holding a position that happens to be unpopular (lynch all liars) with this group of players more than anything particularly scummy that they've done. I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief. Its an older playstyle sir, but it checks out. 41 just seems like he's making a joke about his random vote and its been read into like crazy. This isn't page 2 anymore. I mean I could respond to each specific post thats called out if people want but suffice it to say I just don't see what others seem to see in Wossi.

I think he's done several sketchy things, including his push on Flubber which imo was kinda delayed until after you pushed it since it looks like he specifically waited to see how people would react if it got pushed. His response to me pointing this was was to attribute the delay to being excited for finding scum so early, but I don't think I'd said anything AI by that point. He's also admitted to making 'meaningless accusations', and I don't understand the town motivation in that.

I'm not sure why you keep on dismissing the wossi wagon when there have been several legitimate points raised against him that he's failed to respond to. I don't think we should move past it just because it's 10 pages later when he's been absent from the thread and hasn't really reacted to it yet.

[skitter30]

Just did a complete reread of the game. Scummest so far is wave's 'meta' tr of wossi.

Just to be clear, you think I'm lying? Or you think meta is not a sufficient reason to townread someone

I think it's insufficient when your major argument for why Wossi might be town is that you meta townread him for a game you can't discuss. You haven't actually pointed to anything in this game for why he's town; at best you've kinda handwaved away some of the arguments against him.

[skitter30]

@seph/wossi:

I'm v/la on Fridays and Saturdays so I won't be able to respond to all of that till tom night.

[skitter30]

And I think that given all that its a lot more sketch that people are willing to drop L-1 votes and demand claims. Its like you're living in RVS and refuse to accept that scummy players and scummy actions are happening RIGHT NOW.

I'm not ignoring the things that have since happened. I don't think I should drop things just because they happened 10 pages ago when the person involved hasn't been active in the thread during that time and can't talk to people about them.

Then Skitter was the first person to put a second vote on somebody, and I pointed it out. I expected my observation would just be passed over, maybe more interesting after town had more information,

I still don't understand why this was important or relevant to point out. If you expected it to be passed over, why note it at all?

Because I thought either or both of you might be scum and I didn't want to say "Oh, I'm voting to apply pressure and get reactions!" because that kind of defeats the point.

But you implied you would answer the question after he posted again, so I don't get why you'd say that if you weren't intending on answering after he posted.

This is the point when I decided Skitter was town

That post isn't remotely AI for me, but whatever. More interestingly, you called me scum in 117, which came after this.

I don't understand how people seriously thought I was making a serious accusation on page two. No one catches scum on page two.

So why? Why would someone claim scum? Even in RVS, what might someone be thinking when they claim that?

Town should never lie

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Scum claiming scum is scum and should be lynched
Town claiming scum is lying and should be lynched

These two quotes don't match. You were pushing him very seriously at the time. You're now backtracking on how hard you were pushing him. You weren't even suggesting per se that you caught scum; the above post sounds like you're pushing a policy lynch on him regardless of his alignment. I don't understand why we *shouldn't* have taken the above post seriously.

Wait are you now claiming that you thought I was scum in 13? What on earth were you basing that conclusion on? And if you think I'm scum, why aren't you voting me?

Wossi, how would you characterize the above quote?

i'd come across another post where you were pushing me and my read would drop again to scum very quickly.

This sounds like OMGUS-lite.

I won't mention how you look like scum who threw all your chips on a mislynch and now need to reach to justify why you're still on my wagon

If you don't intend on throwing out this accusation . . . why are you mentioning it?

[skitter30]

iDannyboy is probably town but I think he could do a better job of getting opinions from others and not just forming conclusions by himself.

My 40% winning percentage says otherwise.

[skitter30]

Ah, 75% sure that sergetacos is scum. Sorry bud that I replaced.

K, why?

[skitter30]

Scumteam is

Serge
One in wicked/steph/wave
One in million/chip/implosion/flubber/Skitter

If you're seriously going to try to scumread me here after 1946 I can't take anything you're saying as credible.

[skitter30]

Basically, he acts more jokes, never gives reasons, and throws his vote around too much as Town. This game he's giving reasons and vote parking. Probably scum

I don't disagree with the meta, but I think his play here matches the town meta. He actually like tries as scum. Here he made a lolmiller claim, and then disappeared for llike five days.

[skitter30]

I'm just going to point you to 149 cuz I did this like four times already.

And can you talk about this meta? Or is this the same ongoing game that wave is referencing that he can't talk about.

[skitter30]

Basically, he acts more jokes, never gives reasons, and throws his vote around too much as Town. This game he's giving reasons and vote parking. Probably scum

I don't disagree with the meta, but I think his play here matches the town meta. He actually like tries as scum. Here he made a lolmiller claim, and then disappeared for llike five days.

Interesting, that's true. But I've never seen him explain things as town. Never

And . . . he hasn't explained anything here?

[skitter30]

Skitter is your case really based on post 13? Really? Cmon man its page 1. Your kind of obvious town here but no offense that case is shit

I don't think it is. I also think in his recent catchup that he backtracked on how hard he pushed his flubber vote to make it seem like it was less of a thing.
.
I also feel like literally no one has explained why he's town based on anything he's done *in this* game.

p-edit: you post too fast for me.

[skitter30]

The rambling paragraphs could be copy pasted from our scum game

OK, that's it for today. I'm going to be pretty low effort and low time to this game.

VOTE: sergetacos

I do think his Miller claim is towny tho.

And he literally naked voted someone for the L-1 vote - we know scum have daychat. I can't see scum!serg not asking his partners if this was a good idea or not, and I def can't see them letting him do that???

[skitter30]

VOTE: wossi

This was L-1.

[skitter30]

He litereally admitted he did it for the lols. The daychat has nothing to do with it.

[skitter30]

UNVOTE: sergetacos

Idk

Skitter I'll unvote him if you unvote wossi



Any lurkers we can lynch?

I've found that getting rid of those lead to town wins

You unvoted him already? And I don't want to unvote wossi. He's my biggest scumlean right now.

Serg is the closest to a lurker. Flub hasn't been around for the past couple of days, but has just been prodded.

[skitter30]

In my perspective it was an obvious joke.

[skitter30]

Why yes lynch flubber? I don't think he starts the game the way he did as scum.

[skitter30]

You can't say my reasons for scumreading wossi are bad when you don't know how flubber started the game. I'll pull it up, give me a sec.

[skitter30]

No, the point is that my reasons for scumreading wossi are directly related to how flubber started the game. If you don't know how flubber started the game I don't see why you get to have an opinion on my reasons for scumreading wossi.

[skitter30]

@Mulch: Unless you want me quoting like every post just read the first two pages.

[skitter30]

K, now read page 2.

Wave is my next biggest scumlean and I'd be voting there. But you're going to have explain why I shouldn't be voting wossi beyond 'lolmeta'. You can't say all my reasons are bad ffs when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

[skitter30]

Implosion or idany, but not as confident as I would like. Wicked's slightly below them.

[skitter30]

wossi

And lol no.

[skitter30]

K, now read page 2.

Wave is my next biggest scumlean and I'd be voting there. But you're going to have explain why I shouldn't be voting wossi beyond 'lolmeta'. You can't say all my reasons are bad ffs when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

I mean wave could be scum cause he's trying.

Meta is the best way to read people actually, it's not lolmeta

It's

Meta literally tells you allignments
And
Your read is based on page 1

Cmon. Really Skitter

Why do I feel like you're scum here?

You just said you'd sheep wave?

It's lolmeta when it can't be talked about and no one can back up the meta read with anything in this game.

You're discrediting my read when you clearly haven't read the context and don't know what you're talking about.

[skitter30]

wossi

And lol no.

Bruh can you trust me on this one

No.

I sort of don't want to add Dany because all 3 scum leans he has are town pretty sure

Skitter if wossi is town, u still be townreading Dany?

Yes.

[skitter30]

Your right, that's pretty scummy of me to switch on wave.

Yeah, and you acknowledging it doesn't make it any less scummy.

Skitter my man you have to trust me ans wave on wossi. The man is town

No. Until you can explain why he's town *in this game* I'm going to be stubborn.

VOTE: chip


Gonna place this vote because i think he's useless as town too

Let's Lynch chip

Why do I feel like you're just cycling through names until you find somebody you don't think I'm going to put up a fuss about?

For example Skitter


I'm scummy as town
Towny as scum


Even if I was being Completely scummy, I'm probably town

That's why meta matters

Yeah, I know. I've never played against you while I was town before, but I've played as scum with you like four times, and I've gotten a certain vibe from your town and scum games.

I don't think this is your towngame. You actually have your own opinions and it doesn't look like you're trying to appease people. I just got you to leave Flub and Serg with like no effort, and I don't know why you're being strangely stubborn about wossi.

I have to go read HEM again and go do hw. I'll be back later.

[skitter30]

@mulch:

Why do I feel like you're just cycling through names until you find somebody you don't think I'm going to put up a fuss about?

Like you dropped Serg/Flubber with almost no effort on my part. And both of those, and the push on Chip now, almost feel like policy.

I feel like you're just bs'ing everything. 'Wossi is town on meta'. 'Serg is town on meta'. I don't know about the wossi one, but I got you to agree on the Serg meta read pretty easily.

You demonstrably had no idea what I was talking about with Wossi (you didn't know about how Flubber entered the game, and my wossi read is inextricably linked to Flubber's entrance), so I don't see how your claims that my read on wossi is bad are credible.

[skitter30]

Mulch, can you respond to 491?

[skitter30]

@mulch:

Why do I feel like you're just cycling through names until you find somebody you don't think I'm going to put up a fuss about?

Like you dropped Serg/Flubber with almost no effort on my part. And both of those, and the push on Chip now, almost feel like policy.

I feel like you're just bs'ing everything. 'Wossi is town on meta'. 'Serg is town on meta'. I don't know about the wossi one, but I got you to agree on the Serg meta read pretty easily.

You demonstrably had no idea what I was talking about with Wossi (you didn't know about how Flubber entered the game, and my wossi read is inextricably linked to Flubber's entrance), so I don't see how your claims that my read on wossi is bad are credible.

What's the question you want answered?

a) Why are you suggesting policy lynches on three different players?

b) Why did you back off of Serg (75% of being scum!) and Flubber ('Let's lynch lurkers!') so easily after I disagreed?

c) Why are my reasons for scumreading wossi bad when you clearly didn't know what they were/understand the context?

a+b makes it look like you're pushing any old mislynch that doesn't have that much resistance to it.

[skitter30]

A) It's not PL, it's just a PoE read

B) Because he voted someone to L-1, and I like flubber's day 1 post

C) Your scumread is based on a day 1 post...

A):

Any lurkers we can lynch?

I've found that getting rid of those lead to town wins

I can't read chip because I'm pretty sure he's negative value regardless of his allignment.

If there's a vig, shoot him. If he flips town or scum we benefit

How are these not policy?

B/C): Why can you townread someone because of their day1 post but I can't scumread them on a day1 post?

[skitter30]

A) It's not policy because he's in my PoE but OUT of the people in the PoE, he's the most useless


B) Because day 1 scumreads are almost always wrong, plus yours is wrong casuse he had a perfectly towny day 1

A) Those two quotes were describing two different people, and I still don't get why those aren't policy lynches. That's literally what you're doing: 'out of my PoE he's the most useless' - how the heck is that not a policy lynch? You're not voting based on alignment, but based on how useful you think he is.

B) No he hasn't, and you haven't been able to show me why he hasn't a towny day1. And what kind of generalization is that? Day 1 scumreads can be right? how else do scum get lynched day1?

[skitter30]

VOTE: Mulch

I think L-3. I still have to read HEM again, but probably will be staying here for the rest of the phase; might go back on Wossi, *maybe* wave.

I will not be involved in any wagon on someone Mulch tried to push, including Flubber, Chip, and Serg.

[skitter30]

A) LIterally any of the 3 I'll wagon. No preference. So I guess he's a MINI policy lynch between the 3.

B) PAGE ONE SCUMREADS sorry, not day 1

A) THAT IS DESCRIBING A POLICY LYNCH ON LITERALLY THREE PLAYERS, TWO OF WHOM YOU JUST SAID YOU WEREN'T INTERESTED IN WAGONING.

B) I mean . . . I moved off of Wossi, so . . .

[skitter30]

Welp


I PoEd the game and are being mislynched by my townreads


@skitter, I don't townread any of the 3, I just want them all gone because everyone else I townread

how can you possibly townread 9 players when you demonstrably have not read the game

The dude you're locktowning based on meta just said he's only played one game and since you're apparently not metareading him from that game, ??????

And two of the people who you proposed policy lynches on are voting you.

[skitter30]

unvote

I think both Wossi and Mulch are scummy, but I definately don't want day to end early and Wossi's vote on Mulch makes me unsure on which is scummier.

+1

Two, you get a townlean again, yay.

[skitter30]

Yes, that's kinda my point? You proposed policy-lynching them, I said no that's a bad idea, and boom they're townreads?

[skitter30]

He's at like L-3 I think.

[skitter30]

Because Two just unvoted?

[skitter30]

Chip and Flubber.

[skitter30]

Why do you want to lolhammer Mulch?

I'm voting him because he's proposing bad policy-lynches, claiming meta reads that he can't have, defending someone and discrediting my read when he clearly doesn't know the context, and just seems to be looking for mislynches that don't have much pushback.

[skitter30]

Honestly I feel like skitter is trying too hard to be active. Skitter mulch and i were scum buddies in our recent game and skitter was a big lurker. but now she's all up in mulch's face... feels like trying too hard or something.

I literally can't fake this.

[skitter30]

OK, explain the town perspective?????

[skitter30]

Chip and Flubber.

Scumread and townread respectively

Explain the scumread. (Since, you know, you proposed policy-lynching him twice?)

[skitter30]

OK, explain the town perspective?????

why should i explain it? if you were town you would try to see from it, however you're asking me to explain it, meaning you couldn't see it from a town perspective because you aren't town, which therefore you're scum.

wtf.

I'm trying to see it, but oddly enough I don't see a town motivation in replacing into a game and claiming a meta defense of a player based on a game that doesn't exist.

[skitter30]

i feel that chip is a good wagon, skitter. hop on. everyone hop on.

You just said I was scum . . . why are you trying to get me to vote with you?

[skitter30]

yeah, ok, I'm done for the night.

[skitter30]

I don't think this is your towngame. You actually have your own opinions and it doesn't look like you're trying to appease people. I just got you to leave Flub and Serg with like no effort, and I don't know why you're being strangely stubborn about wossi. .

Wait, trying to appease people and not having your own opinions is towny in your book??

I realized afterwards that this was phrased poorly. It should read:

I don't think this is your towngame. When you're town, you actually have your own opinion and it doesn't look like you're trying to appease people. In contrast, here, I just got you to leave Flubber and Serg with like no effort ...

[skitter30]

@skitter: One of your reasons for voting Mulch was because he seemed to be looking for mis-lynches that don't have much pushback. Did he do this when you were partners with him? Do you think he, as scum, is incapable of going after more difficult targets?

Basically what seph said.

When he's town, he actually exhibits a natural thought process, and has pretty damn good reads. He doesn't just arbitrarily change his reads because someone gives him some pushback, and he can actually explain what he's thinking, and he doesn't just push lolpolicy lynches.

Just look at this replace-in where he was town: viewtopic.php?p=9470081#p9470081

Or this one: viewtopic.php?p=9423037#p9423037.

Do these look remotely similar to what he did here?

I think as scum he is *very* capable of going after harder targets. He's capable of doing that as town too. I don't know why he's going after the easy pushes here. This doesn't exactly match his scum game, but this is sooooo far off from how he plays town that I'm having a really hard time seeing town!Mulch here.

1946 I guess is the one loss in 15-1 and that was pretty much because of me because I'm *that* bad at scum, and I screwed up kinda badly on like page 6 and we spent the next two days trying to get me not lynched, and by then our associatives were god awful and he got lynched right after me.

He did try to redirect town to other shiny targets like hard lurker, but spent a lot of time trying to get himself into a mechanical 1v1 vs a town tracker (tor) with remarkably good reads to try to distract from how scummy me/him were. (ie that was an example of yes, he is capable of going after harder targets as scum).

I'm not really sure why whether or not he's pushed mislynches without much pushback in the past makes this any less of a universal scumtell. Like pushing easy lynches (on policy no less) is a hallmark of scumplay, as is changing your reads when someone gives you the smallest amount of pushback. Your last question in the quote above is really, really weird in this context. I can't articulate why exactly atm, but I'm going to continue trying to figure it out because it's really pinging me hard.

[skitter30]

I like really feel kind of shitty about unvoting Wossi. I still feel like his early game was really bad but I feel some trepidation based on his play around Mulch. But I think Chip is now in the position Wossi was in where I don't remember anything he's said at any point ever feeling especially genuine. That sentence is kind of still true of Wossi but he's made moves that I don't think are especially wise as scum, and that I don't think scum playing badly are necessarily likely to make. And it's a bit odd that Chip's wagon is stuck at two votes despite Mulch pushing it a little when I can't remember ever hearing any sentiment that he's town.

Unvote
VOTE: Chip Butty

I agree with you on Wossi. I very much dislike this vote on Chip.

VOTE: Skitter

Feels like she's trying too hard.

You very clearly have never played with town!me.

[skitter30]

Pretty sure lalendra is scum

@Skitter

When i die

You usually put in a lot more resistance than this, irregardless of alignment . . .

Preflips are bad yada yada yada, but I doubt Mulch and serg are scum together. (scum!mulch decides to enter the game and hardbus his partner?)

[skitter30]

Yeah I saw that too. I don't think Mulch enters the game deciding to hardbus patner!serg, and if he decides he really is doing that, I don't think he gives up on that plan so easily, but the fact that Serg is now listening to Mulch makes me think he may have pocketed him.

[skitter30]

Pretty sure lalendra is scum

@Skitter

When i die

You usually put in a lot more resistance than this, irregardless of alignment . . .

Preflips are bad yada yada yada, but I doubt Mulch and serg are scum together. (scum!mulch decides to enter the game and hardbus his partner?)

I mean

It'd your fault your scumreading me, not mine

I found scum in chip and lalendra, your fault for not having better reads

1. You PoE'd them. That isn't finding scum

2. All of our reads apparently magically match besides for like wossi and you.

[skitter30]

What part of starting out scumreading then flipping to townreading with no resistance comes across as hardbussing? Seems like he came in 'bussing' and then took the first out.

Fair enough. I'll think about this again.

[skitter30]

What part of starting out scumreading then flipping to townreading with no resistance comes across as hardbussing? Seems like he came in 'bussing' and then took the first out.

Fair enough. I'll think about this again.

Because for scum!mulch to have come into the game deciding to 'bus' tacos and take the first out, he'd have to have known that someone would have provided that out. We all know he hasn't read the game, so he wouldn't have known there was some resistance to a tacos lynch already. He certainly would not have expected it from me. If anything, his entrance on tacos reads to me like he came in blind and thought that was the path to least resistance for a lynch.

[skitter30]

@skitter:

Chip's been somewhere between nulltown and townlean for a while now, since before Mulch came in. Specifically, since 306 because I liked his read of wave. Around then, I realized that I think wave is scummy irregardless of wossi's alignment, specifically because of the townread he can't explain. I'm getting major vibes from another game I played where I got kinda tunneled on someone who was town and scum kept on insisting the dude was town because of meta and that I should give it up but he literally could never explain *why* he was town based on meta or anything in game, and wave's behavior here is reminding me *a lot* of scum in that game.

You mentioned disliking some of his posting earlier but also disliking my vote on him, and the only reason I can see for this is you explicitly thinking any wagon Mulch has touched is poison despite you also acknowledging that preflip associatives ought to be avoided.

Yeah this is why I don't like your vote. You weren't here when Mulch was doing his thing, but he literally felt like he was just throwing out names until he could find one I wouldn't put up too much of a fight about. He hasn't been able to *explain* any of his pushes, and they all feel super artificial and just pushes for the sake of ease and convenience. Like, look at the timestamps - he's clearing people based on meta and there was no way he had time to look at their posts in the time he changed his reads. I won't get on any of Serg/Flubber/Chip because of that.

And yeah pre-flips ought to be avoided. Joining awful wagons on people you don't scumread ought to be avoided too.

His reads here were changing with the wind for a bit but they seem to have settled at this point and I don't think that having a period where they were in flux is particularly scummy even if he doesn't usually have that kind of thing as town unless he does specifically exhibit that behavior a lot as scum.

I don't believe there's anything natural in his read progression irregardless of how much effort he's planning on putting in the game. His reads are based . . . . on what exactly? He hasn't read the game. Even if his reads are based on meta I don't believe they're credible if he hasn't actually seen anything in this game to compare past games to. I don't see how pulling random names out of thin air like this could possibly be described as town motivated. Like I've felt like when he's town I could at least follow his thought process.

[skitter30]

@wave:

Spoiler:

but he literally could never explain *why* he was town based on meta or anything in game

This is the second time in the same game you are taking someone who's explained plenty, but you simply disagree with the explanations, and then turn around and say they have no explanation

You either need a more open mind or better precision of language. Probably both

I townread Wossi on meta

I can't talk about ongoing games

some gut, some logical, some meta, and not the least of which is the speed of the growth of his wagon.

I don't consider any of this an 'explanation', but tbh I think we might be quibbling over the definition of 'explanation'.

And yeah pre-flips ought to be avoided. Joining awful wagons on people you don't scumread ought to be avoided too.

For clarity, 'you' here is referring to people in general, not implosion in particular.

I'm pretty sure this quote is about someone from a different game that played with Skitter in the past? Why did you snip it out of context?

+1

Even in context, she's saying I'm doing the same thing when I'm clearly and demonstrably not

This kinda sounds like you're agreeing you took it out of context? ('Even in context' - specifically the 'even').

I do still believe that Mulch/Serg are town though. So is flub. Scum is in chip/dany/tiam/wossi. The rest are null for me at the moment.

Can you explain like all of these? (especially the scumreads?)

Tbh I'm not super feeling a lalendra lynch right now. She feels more disengaged/out-of-it then scummy to me.

[skitter30]

@lalendra:

I do still believe that Mulch/Serg are town though. So is flub. Scum is in chip/dany/tiam/wossi. The rest are null for me at the moment.

Can you explain like all of these? (especially the scumreads?)

@implosion: basically agree with you on lalendra. I don't really see scum motivation in like anything she's posting. She looks to me like she's kinda misreading the thread.

I digress though. I can see why you find Mulch scummy and I can agree with the points that you're making about him so meh. My trepidation comes from him being stereotypically frequently mislynched but you're right about his read progression in particular. It and the way he's been vote hopping are both really convenient plays for scum to make and doesn't make as much sense from pressured town.

Vote hopping is completely NAI for him. It's the lack of read progression that I don't like.

I don't think this day really needs to be drawn out much more

Agreed.

This is basically where I'm at:

{Seph}
{chip, dany}
{two, flubber}
{implosion}
{serg} -null line. Serg isn't null per se so much as I have no clue how to read him and I don't want him anywhere near lylo (cops/vigs, this is a great target)
{wicked} - not entirely sure if this is the right place for him, kinda also want to put him on the same line as implosion, but this feels more right. oddly enough I kinda wanna move implosion down here too, but he feels more right just above the null line.
{Lalendra, wossi} - neither of these are major scumleans atm, they're just less town than everyone else above them (except serg obviously)
{wave}
{Mulch}

Prob not moving off of Mulch for the rest of the phase; the alternative wagons aren't super appealing to me right now.

[skitter30]

Town don't make up reads

Mulch, why are you town here?

Why does it look like nearly all of your reads mimic mine?

[skitter30]

I feel like the 'going after easy targets' scum tell applies more to inexperienced scum. If it's the oldest scum tell in the book, then I would think scum would stop doing it. If Mulch had a history of playing this way as scum, then this would interest me much more - that's why I asked the question. However, if this isn't even how he plays as scum, then I'm not really convinced. --> I think that, regardless of his alignment, he is putting very little effort into this game. I just don't see how people are so sure that he is lazy scum vs. lazy town.

He does and can go after harder targets, but he doesn't do so exclusively. (Like in 1946 he went after the hard lurker). And sometimes scum just choose to take the easy path. I think he's lazy scum since in his entrance it looked repeatedly like he was pushing what he thought to be easy targets, and I don't see why lazy town does this.

Agree with like all of this.

Town don't make up reads

Mulch, why are you town here?

Why does it look like nearly all of your reads mimic mine?

Maybe I agree with you?

What’s the point in you sharing your opinions if you don’t want people to agree with you

Bolded is an incredibly loaded question and I'm pretty sure you know that.

Yeah, I want people to agree with me. I like it when that happens and people can explain their reasoning for why they're agreeing. You're not though. You're giving opinions, I state an opposing one, and then you just agree with whatever I say - pretty much all of your positions except wossi match my own and it's really weird, since for most of them, you switch to match mine after I say what I'm thinking.

In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??

I can't really articulate it but I'm getting townpings from this post. I still think she's disengaged and/or out-of-it town.

Sorry for missing that. My scumreads on chip/dany/tiam/wossi are largely related to the way they've interacted with Mulch, who I still think is town, aside from the points that I made earlier about my Wossi scumread.

Can you specifically elaborate on Chip and Dany? (ie what are those interactions that are bothering you exactly?). Why aren't I on this list for pushing Mulch?

[skitter30]

Wave, what's your opinion on Mulch?

[skitter30]

Skitter, I don't see Lalendra as disengaged - she seems plenty engaged with her theory dispute with Sephiroth. Out-of-it - maybe. Said dispute has reached the point where it almost like she is deliberately not getting what Sephiroth is saying.

Maybe disengaged isn't the right word. (I'm not really awake enough right now to be articulate or to find the words that I want to describe what I'm seeing, sorry).

I don't see why scum!lalendra starts this argument or keeps it going. I don't think she's maliciously misunderstanding or misrepping Seph. I think she actually believes what she's saying and thinks she caught Seph backtracking on his reads. I don't agree with like anything she's saying, but I think she's sincere even though I think she's really really wrong.

I think she's focusing on the wrong things and is kinda misreading the thread, but she seems sincere to me.

[skitter30]

(I'm aware, that's kinda my point)

[skitter30]

Hardclaim vt bye


Baby steps

Are you proud of me for not self hammering NExus

I gotta admit I was low-key expecting you to self-hammer or claim something (as either alignment for both).

This is so different from how you've played before as either alignment that I'm kinda getting cold feet. You seem so much more . . . mellow. You're usually a lot more . . . . manic is probably a good word. As scum you try anything to stay alive. As town, you do anything you can to get people to read you right.

[skitter30]

Why should I be townreading you here? Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

[skitter30]

Interesting result. Did anyone notice if Wossi may have crumbed that yesterday?

*will be rereading*

I'm guessing it's based on 713 and the ensuing convo he had with Chip in ~738.

@Lalendra:

a) I'm a she

b) you missed seph

c) Is that list in any particular order? After all of that, who are your scumreads? I'm guessing Chip and TIAM? And me null? (Your list didn't really make it clear what your reads actually are on many of these people).

You're voting TIAM, who you're not sure if is 'scum or consistently wrong town'. Are you voting him because you scumread him, or because you think he's a liability even if town? (Also you conflate dany and tiam in the mulch section).

Sorry for missing that. My scumreads on chip/dany/tiam/wossi are largely related to the way they've interacted with Mulch

My interactions with Mulch.

Mulch replaces humaneatingmonkey. Thanks Mulch

Hello!

The end.

VOTE: Mulch

Can you elaborate on this hammer?

[skitter30]

Dany's hammer certainly merits some scrutiny. In particular: Dany, when you made your hammer, did you realize the sort of overt scumminess of it, particularly the tone of naked hammering Mulch 20 minutes after he called you scum? Did you realize what you were doing and just didn't care? I'm sort of confused by 789 because I feel like it's obvious what serg is getting at (although of course he can correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not entirely sure what to make of the vote.

Dany is the person I'm most interested in. Pre and post-Mulch dany look like two different players. And the hammer in the context of mulch's last vote and the wossi kill is very, very odd.

I think the people I'm most inclined to look at right now are dany, tiam, flubber and wicked. I feel like all four of them vaguely lurked as the Mulch shenanigans were going down and my reads on them all sort of eroded. I'm open to arguments on wave, serg, and chip but I think there are pretty good reasons to think they're town. Lalendra idk I still think she's townish but can be persuaded on as well. I'm not really sure if the reasons I have for thinking she's town are actually good reasons. skitter and Seph are very town.

Two I don't think is being scummy *for him*. I feel like Serg might be playing up the troll but I don't know what that says about his alignment. I don't feel confident reading either and I don't want them anywhere near LYLO.

Seph is like the only read I'm feeling confident about right now; I think he's town.

I'm thinking Skitter and Idanny are scum partners.

VOTE: IdannyVOTE:

We lynch skitter tomorrow?

a) why are you scumreading me?

b) why do you think I'm scum *with dany* in particular?

[skitter30]

@serg:

a) why are you scumreading me?

b) why do you think I'm scum *with dany* in particular?

In addition, Mulch had already claimed VT, so I also don't understand the meaning of "naked hammer". Should he have said "Sorry" or "I now sentence thee to death" first?

I just wanna say that I thought this was funny lol

And I largely agree with Implosion - I understand that dany had stated intent and that implosion had asked for the hammer, but it does look a bit odd for dany to naked hammer immediately after mulch called him scum. I don't know if it's scummy. It's weird and worth probing imo.

@dany:

Why did your posting style change so drastically at around the time Mulch replaced in?

While i was reading more, Mulch pinged me town af. If Mulch is scum this game then gg but so far I have him town locked.

UNVOTE: Mulch

If you are scum reading serg, I would like to know whether or not you think this is a white knight.

Is white-knighting the thing where scum defends a townie for towncred?

Cuz yeah I was getting those vibes at the very end of the day, especially from 783 and 787. I really don't like 787 because it feels like a) Serg knows Mulch is flipping town and b) that he was setting up a dany lynch to avenge Mulch once he did in fact flip town.

I think I wanna do this for now.

VOTE: Serg

[skitter30]

@mod:

my vote's on Serg

[skitter30]

a) I don't think you actually think I'm scum here

b) I don't believe Mulch was an 'obvious town read'

c) You said me and dany were partners before I 'tried to protect dany', by which I assume you mean that I'm pushing you (who in turn is pushing dany) in 823, so I want to know where you were getting that at daystart.

d) You went from voting Mulch, to 'Mulch ping[ing] [you] town af', to unvoting him in the span of three posts over two minutes, and then proceeded to locktown him for the rest of the day. It's kinda hard for me to believe that you seriously considered he was scum in the first place, or that this read reversal was genuine, tbh.

e) I still think that 787 is kinda bad

[skitter30]

Have you read my ISO? I'm pretty sure I have considered Mulch could be scum then changed it.

Tbh, it kinda feels like you threw in that one line about scumreading Mulch so that you can later point to it and say that you weren't townreading him all game (ie so that you can make this post)

Because at the time I just logged in, started reading, felt like he was scum, but as i read more he gave me a strong town ping because I could see it from a town perspective instead of a scum perspective

I still don't get why anyone townread him. (Yes, I'm fully aware that he flipped)

You don't think I think you're scum here? Why? Explain why you think that.

You're basically arguing that in the space of like a month and a half, with no scumgames in between, scum!me figured out how to a) avoid lurking b) form opinions c) talk to people d) especially the people who are scumreading me.

I don't really believe that you think scum!me can post like this after 1946.

538

Serg, mind justifying your reads in a bit more depth?

Idanny hammered mulch and skitter pushed and desperately pushed for mulch when mulch was obvious town.

I don't think Mulch was obvious town. I mostly stopped pushing him after I voted because I didn't see myself changing my vote and because I was pretty sure his lynch was inevitable. I *did* try to talk to him a few times after that about why we *shouldn't* lynch him. I'm not really sure how that could be characterized as 'desperate.'

Now Serg's behavior is also very weird, don't get me wrong. I have literally no idea why town OR scum serg would be unvoting and revoting mulch repeatedly throughout the day, all while proclaiming him to be town. And then there's the lol hammer comment. I view Serg as a wildcard who is working mostly on vibe rather than reason. His behavior on Mulch's wagon is consistent with that to me. That is to say, I don't find it to be any more AI than anything else he's done this game or in any game. That being said, I really don't want to wind up in a LYLO situation with him. I would support his wagon based on my inability to get a strong read on him and the fact that he'll be a liability in end, but I'm not thrilled at the thought of a Serg lynch today.

I voted him, then unvoted him. I accidentally voted him when I meant to type someone else's name. It is pretty obvious to me. You saying that I unvoted then vote him again throughout the day is scummy af because all that is a lie.

Ok, but you 'accidentally,' voted him two different times after locktowning him (463 and 592), and also say you want to lolhammer him in 528, which are rather odd things to do if you have someone as a lock townread. To me this looks like you're misrepping Seph by saying he's lying.

More later.

[skitter30]

Cut for brevity

Assorted points:

1. I think Serg might have been whiteknighting. When I have a chance (ie not before the weekend), I need to look at 1946 again. Atm, I think the way he treated the Mulch wagon is suspect. Although I have some questions about dany's play, I don't think that the hammer was scummy per se. I kinda get the vibe that Serg was setting up a dany push today. I dislike how whenever someone pushes him, he immediately responds by calling that person scummy.

2. Lalendra. I noted that she didn't have you in her opening post, but hadn't made the connection that she had left you out *after that argument with you yesterday*. This is incredibly sketchy - if she *really* thinks that you're scummy, you should have been a prominent feature of that list, but she omits you completely. It does kinda look like she forgot she was scumreading you. Like, I can understand what she wrote in 844, but it would seem more like a natural thought if she had included that in her initial start-of-day post, and not like she was just reacting to the criticism that she had forgotten to include her major scumread.

Wicked is an interesting case and I'm curious about peoples' reasons for calling him town. I sort of can't remember anything of his sticking out strongly as town but I remember his day 1 being mostly full of Generically Sensible Material. There's a big part of me that says that that's mostly meaningless because logicality isn't a tell. Nothing stuck out as strongly scummy either.

Tbh, I kinda feel like about implosion, wicked and dany to some degree or another. Like I vaguely agree with all of their posting, and there aren't really any red flags, but . . . I just don't see a major reason to townread like any of you. You're not really scummy, so I'd rank you higher on a readslist than some other people, but none of you are inherently town either.

I didn't include Seph in my reads because I'm not sure how to sort him. I definitely had him as my top scumread D1, but everyone pretty universally felt that my argument against him was bad, so I went back and looked at it again and I am willing to say that maybe I misinterpreted and was wrong in scumreading him. Obviously he was no longer my top scumread at the start of D2, since I voted someone else.

(I had asked you this earlier, but you didn't answer)

You said the following about Two:

Not sure if scum or consistently wrong town.

And I pointed out that you didn't really give any concrete scumreads besides maybe Two, Chip by implication, and having me as null. Based on the above characterization of Two, I'm not really sure why he's your top scumread.

There are more than 6 players in this game, right? Can we get some activity from other players please?

^^^^^

[skitter30]

I like this post.

What do you think about the fact implosion later joined the Mulch wagon, and that he's currently voting Lalendra?

@skitter - Did you read what I wrote in my readslist about why my read on TIAM changed? I don't think it's that hard to go from "not sure if this person is scum" to "they did scummy things and now I think they're scum."

Yes, I did. You never explained how you went from 'not sure if this person is scum' to 'they did scummy things and now I think they're scum and so I'm voting for them', which is exactly the point I was highlighting. You're conflating having wrong reads with being scummy.

VOTE: Idanyboy

This guy is scum and will push wossi tomorrow

Lalendra, Mulch said that about iDanyboy, not TIAM. Naughty, naughty...

Ugh, gdi.

VOTE: iDanyBoy

You're voting TIAM, who you're not sure if is 'scum or consistently wrong town'. Are you voting him because you scumread him, or because you think he's a liability even if town?

(Also you conflate dany and tiam in the mulch section

).

@Lalendra: Did you not read this earlier? Cuz I pointed out that you confused dany and Two like four days ago.

Later adds Serg, who obviously has not flipped yet but I TR him

[Serg] Seems like disengaged town, not scum.

(I added the word 'serg' for clarity; this was in the Serg section).

how about we go after someone who is actually scum? i.e. look in Chip, skitter, TIAM and iDany.

Serg is not my top scumread but I would be willing to join that wagon.

What the heck is this?

[skitter30]

I would favor Serg lynch over no lynch, but would much rather have a lynch within my scum pool. Hence why I have not moved my vote onto Serg. However, a no-lynch gives us no information, and Serg's behavior is offputting enough that I am willing to compromise on him as opposed to not lynching anyone at all.

Why are you talking about no-lynching? We're still in early-mid day 2, and we aren't anywhere close to deadline yet. You're talking about who you would vote in the event of a nolynch, and you're telling me you'd vote your own counterwagon, which is kinda obvious, because presumably you aren't voting yourself.

And why are you bringing up Serg and conceding to prevalent opinion instead of trying to get people to follow

you

on your scumreads (who you apparently can't even keep straight)?

This kinda reads like you're just adding another name to a list of people you're willing to lynch.

And is Serg in your scumpool or not? Earlier you called him a 'locktownread', but now he's 'not [your] top scumread', which implies he is *a scumread*, just not the top one.

[skitter30]

Can y'all not be idiots and not vote yet? There's pretty decent evidence that we might be dealing with an sk, and if there's 3 scum we could well be in mylo right now - 4 town, three scum, one sk.

So like, don't do anything stupid.

More when I'm not about to be driving.

[skitter30]

I considered that possibility but I don't have any issue with someone being at L-3. I'll unvote if anyone else votes them.

Yeah, sorry if I was harsh.

I'm just feeling:

a) really, really annoyed about how the day ended. We weren't anywhere close to ending day2. I'm usually here and can keep an eye on developments, but I'm offline on Saturday for religious reasons, and I came back after literally like a day to find that the game basically got set on fire and imploded in my absence.

b) kinda concerned that we'll have another quickhammer, given that we have wave (pops in to naked vote the L-2 vote, and appears to be aware that he was casting that vote, and literally hadn't mentioned her at all day2, and hasn't implied a read on her since like early-mid day1), serg (wanted to lolhammer his locktownread and pops in to naked vote the L-1 vote without checking the vc), and two (doesn't want to end the day early but quickhammers someone without intent or a claim or anything)

c) completely unconfident in all of my reads, which I'm now throwing out the window and completely resetting, so I don't necessarily actually trust you to unvote when other people vote. Can you like unvote so that we can work this out?


------

Things that I'm thinking right now:

1. 8 players. Strong evidence that we may be dealing with an SK: wossi flipped FBI agent, and there were two kills last night. I don't really believe that a vig would decide to kill either dany or wicked (as opposed to killing like serg/two), so sk looks pretty likely. If true and there are three scum, right now we have 4 town, 3 scum, and 1 sk. If true and two scum, there are 5 town, two scum, and 1 sk. Either way, we're decently close to endgame right now. I'm strongly encouraging people to exercise caution when they vote given that we're pretty close to endgame and we have people who lolvote and are willing to quickhammer or lolhammer.

2. The Lalendra wagon is god-awful (I was suspicoius about how fast it happened on Friday which is why I didn't want to vote there and I was going to talk about it when I got back Saturday night since I figured we had time, but that didn't happen obviously) and I'm going to have to look at it in greater detail. Off the top of my head, wave's, serg's, and two's votes were all varying degrees of ick, and I have to look at the earlier votes as well.

3. Two, that was a *really* awful thing to do. 898 on the heels of 889 is ick. The fact that other people thought she was scummy did not mean that you should have quickhammered her without like giving intent or asking for a claim. 902 is not a good explanation for that. The fact that you have a proveable ability doesn't really do much; like you're right, we can prove that you have that ability, but that doesn't really tell us anything about your alignment. (910) And why on earth would you be worried about being mislynched with one vote on you? (912)

4. I'm throwing out all of my reads and completely resetting. On my to-do list is that I want to go back and look at wicked/dany's reads and see what they were thinking. I'm aware that they both wanted two, but I'm just asking that people exercise caution given the gamestate and the fact that we have several lolvoters.

[skitter30]

I'm fairly confident that TIAM is not town. I think the lolquickhammer with no claim and after explicitly talking about how we can't afford a mislynch crosses the line from 'lol TIAM' to 'this dude is actively making moves with the purpose of hurting town'.

I don't disagree. I also don't want the day (or the game) to end before we can talk about it though.

Its certainly possible that TIAM is SK and that would explain why their playstyle is very outside of their norm this game.

I have a couple of gut suspiciouns as to who an SK might be. I don't think it's TIAM.

I think Wave is a far scummier vote than Serg's given the context of Sergs play

I think Serg is more self-aware than he's showing himself to be. And I agree that in context, wave's vote is bad.

Why are you sitting there saying that you think TIAM is scummy and putting a player at -1 with no stated reasoning? Like wave, you literally saw wicked vote for tiam with a post full of reasoning, how did you not move your vote there or at least unvote when it became clear there was a chance of a competing wagon

Who is this addressed to? Chip maybe?

I realize that hammering was not optimal, so I apologize that it had to be done. In hindsight, I obviously would not have done it. I felt like the odds of Lelandra being town vs. the odds of me being lynched necessitated it.

Again, you literally hammered her after the one vote on you. Why did you think you were in immediate danger of being lynched?

I'm drunk and I have a small little notepad of things I want to say to you right now and I'm pretty sure they would all get me banned

Thank you for not posting them.

VOTE: 2 in a million

keep on him

Like I said . . . .

Maybe you can unvote now?

but idk about here, but just saying that person is sided with town, sniper or vig or idk. i really need to read the mafia wiki

I don't believe a town-aligned killer shoots either dany or wicked last night.

I think its 2 in a million and skitter. Skitter is protecting 2 in a million.

a) you said the same thing about me/dany yesterday and dany flipped town - does that like make you rethink this theory like at all?

b) why do you keep on implying that there's two groupscum?

c) If I were scum with 2, why the heck do I protect him instead of just bussing him for the towncred?

d) if I were scum with dany yesterday, and I'm scum with 2 now . . . why are you voting me instead of 2? (Note: I don't think you should be voting right now at all).

[skitter30]

I believe 2 in a million killed wicked because of how he was onto 2 in a million. my vote is on 2 in a million, not you.

I'm aware, and I'm asking you not to vote at all right now. And my point is that if I'm scum with dany yesterday and two today, it seems like I'm scum irregardless of the possible partner, so I'm wondering why you aren't voting me (again, I don't want you to vote at all right now)

how am i implying there's two scum groups? im thinking you and 2 in a million are scum. i find 2 in a million the most scummy while you're next in line.

there are players that protect their teammates as scum to wifom people.

No, I was saying that you were syntactically implying (ie it was implied from the way that you constructed your sentences) that you thought that there were two groupscum (ie scum that aren't SK), but after I posted I remembered English isn't your first language so this point is kinda irrelevant and isn't much of a point at all.

Still speaking to wave mode. Meant it as 'like, dude,'. Not 'similar to wave'.

.

Got it. Misread what you wrote.

@skitter: do you specifically think TIAM is town? Or do you just not want to take things quickly?

I'm fairly confident that TIAM is not town. I think the lolquickhammer with no claim and after explicitly talking about how we can't afford a mislynch crosses the line from 'lol TIAM' to 'this dude is actively making moves with the purpose of hurting town'.

I don't disagree. I also don't want the day (or the game) to end before we can talk about it though.

Not sure if we massclaim here.

I'm trying to figure this out too. I think I'm tending towards yes, just cuz I'm pretty sure we're close to endgame, but if no one has any useful results, I'm not sure if this is actually going to help us in any concrete way. I dunno. I think we should talk about it.

[skitter30]

Massclaim is probably a good idea.

To be quite frank, the fact that you think this is a good idea makes me think it might not be.

Despite this, I'm tending towards wanting this to happen; we're probably at endgame and we might get something useful out of it.

Popcorn this? I'd want Serg to start.

Also, is there anyone who doesn't want to lynch Two right now besides for wave?

------

So, I don't know the exact composition/breakdown of scum, but for now, I'm going to work under the assumption that it's 4-3-1. That means that amongst the 7 of you, there ought to be 3-3-1 town-scum-sk. So, the three other townies out there, can you like town it up to make this easier for me? Cuz right now nearly all of you are varying shades of scumminess to me.

Flubber - gut town. Still don't think scum!flubber starts the game the way he does. Also, that post about not posting bannable things at TIAM kinda sounds town to me tbh. No reason for him to be that pissed if he were scum, and he was apparently drunk. Like I don't see drunk scum getting that annoyed at TIAM for that quickhammer. 980 kinda bleeds town tbh.

After I went through everyone, I'm surprisingly confident on this. Going to try to understand the game on the assumption Flubber is town. So, 2-3-1, with two more townies. Town it up please.

Chip - I'm kinda drawing a blank on right now; I can't really remember much of anything you did this game off the top of my head. I do remember getting townpings when you posted earlier but I'd have to go back and check where to see why. I totally get that you're busy, but if you can post, I would appreciate it. When you're town, I feel like I can kinda tell, but I need you to post to get those vibes from you.

edit (I had started writing this last night before he posted this game day): posting from this morning is starting to give me these vibes, especially since you like actually want to try to sort through this mess. Not confidant right now, but stronger townvibes from you than like nearly everyone else.

Seph - I feel like I may have been pocketed by you tbh. I need to look at your posts again. I really, really dislike that you decided to start off voting today, given that you had thought about the possibility of an SK and that we might be in MYLO; you haven't exactly struck me as the impulsive type.

edit: wave brought this up before I managed to get a chance to do so on my computer. I'll talk about it more later.

Implosion - you're just kinda there? Like you're just making a series of mostly reasonable, safe posts, and I just don't really get any hard, controversial stances from you that you were willing to push in the face of opposition. Like everything you've posted I think is fakeable for someone who doesn't play like two/serg. I haven't seen anything inherently *townie* from you.

Wave - I still hate the way you defended wossi. It read vaguely white-knighting to me. I dislike how you sidestepped the Mulch issue. You didn't really push anything day2. (I'm aware that you disagree with this statement). No townpings from you like at any point in this game. I can see scum motivation in some of what you're doing.

edit: I like you calling out Seph on Two vote, which is kinda ick tbh. You're getting townpoints for this.

Serg - i'm pretty sure he's a lot more self-aware than he's displaying. Hated the way he treated the Mulch wagon. Hate the lolvoting. Gut tells me he may be SK.

Two - obvious

-------

And I'm not super great at set-up spec on this site, but apparently no one else is really thinking about this, so here we go.

-> two kills last night; both flipped VT. I don't think a town-aligned killer goes after wicked or dany there. Wicked's last posts were like bleeding town, and dany had been widely townread. So, non-town aligned killer = sk. (if someone has another explanation for why the two of them both died, it might be a good idea to share).

-> I can't imagine that an SK could kill tonight after killing last night. like it's a 13-player mini; there can't be *too* many extra kills. If not 1 or 2-shot, prob something like even-night or non-consecutive. (this is the point that I'm wildly guessing on, since I don't really know site meta for sks in mini normals)

-> if we lynch groupscum today (and I'm assuming 3 scum), and I'm assuming no SK kill, tomorrow we have 3-2-1, which puts us in much the same scenario as today.

-> if we lynch SK today, assuming three scum, tomorrow we have 3-3, which I think is endgame and a scum win?

So I'm pretty sure that we want to avoid trying to lynch the SK today I think? If anyone is like better-versed on this topic, feel free to correct this, because this is rampant set-up spec based on site-meta that I don't have such a great feel for yet.

Again, the fact that Seph is promoting the idea that Two might be SK and that we should therefore lynch him is kinda odd because I think we don't actually want to lynch the SK today. (although I admit I may be wrong on this point)

------

There's no hard evidence on me and lynching me will probably lose us the game. I strongly suggest looking elsewhere.

To be quite frank, if you're town, your quickhammer of lalendra almost for sure lost us the game.

Not only did you place us in MYLO, you pretty much painted yourself as an obvious mislynch target. Even if you don't get lynched today, there's nearly no way that town!Two doesn't get mislynched at some point because you look so incredibly scummy right now. And if we're in 4-3-1, barring lynching groupscum today AND scum crosskilling, we literally do not have an extra mislynch to spend on you. There's such a narrow margin for a town victory that we can't waste a lynch on town!Two at any point going forward pretty much, but I feel like your lynch is inevitable between now and game end.

Like, if you're scum, that wasn't the best move, but it isn't *that* awful from a scum viewpoint. If you're town, we're pretty much fucked.

-------

That said, I am leaning more tiam town and seph scum at this point. The instant TIAM push off the back of the Lalendra Lynch is a strategy to end this game immediately

I will have more to say when I'm not on my phone

but I think the instant willingness to put tiam at L-3 is a scummy sort of impatience. Town would be more wary of our precarious mylo situation

Serg and Chip are the best bets for SK. Dark horse candidate is Skitter but I'm still pretty convinced Skitter is town.

TIAM is clearly scum.

Wave sure smells like TIAMs partner to me. Yesterday, right before quick hammer, Wave mentions that he could vote TIAM instead of lalendra (but really wants Serg) when there is almost no chance of a TIAM lynch. TIAM proceeds to quick hammer. Now suddenly, after a quick hammer and a nonsensical claim/explanation, and after he seems like the most likely lynch candidate, you lean town on him? While simultaneously laughing at his defenses? Sorry if I'm a little bit confused here, but how do TIAMs actions possibly turn him to a town lean?

TIAM's partners are Wavemode and one of {Implosion/{Serg, Chip}} (whichever one is not SK).

Boom.

This is so manufactured it hurts. You're angling to end this game quickly now that we're in mylo and it's so blatantly obvious. TIAM's actions have zero scum motivation and you know it. I'm scum because I'm the only one here who can put more than one iota of thought into people's actual motivations? (Even though I shouldn't *really* be the only one... Skitter can attest that TIAM did the exact same thing in Mini 1931 and was town...) And as much as I would RELISH policy lynching TIAM for always doing stupid anti-town shit...

What are your thoughts on tiam?

As in most games, I would happily lynch tiam, out of principle

As for whether he is scum or not, I have no idea

...I believe we can no longer afford it and need to think critically at this stage.

Right now I doubt TIAM is scum, as he'd have no reason to basically assassinate himself with that hammer, and I also think his play is consistent with his meta.

You on the other hand are turning all shades of red. You're executing a chainsaw attack (if you will). We're in fucking mylo, and rather than expressing any interest whatsoever in gathering information, getting people's opinions, discussing a massclaim, discussing whether TIAM can confirm his role, AKA all the things we're SUPPOSED to be doing to avoid this game ending today, you are dead set on getting TIAM lynched for hammering a wagon YOU were pushing for (hard) and anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM's alignment must be TIAM's partner.

(Which, by the way LOL why would his partners even be defending him at this point? If you think I'm scum here you must think I'm a pretty shitty player... but I digress.) Your sudden aggression and utter self-certainty when the game is this close to the edge is extremely scummy.

Wave, you're getting a lot of townpoints from me right now for pointing this out; I was getting very similar vibes as you but didn't have a chance to post about it until now. I'm just going to bold the points that I strongly agree with instead of repeating everything.

Also I replaced out of 1931, but I'm pretty sure that after I left the game he hammered the obvtown who was claiming doc (ie Eddie) and artificially cut the day short there too? (Although tbf I just reglanced at his ISO there and he like bled clueless newbtown there and it's kidna lacking here). But yeah I don't disagree that this is necessarily something he wouldn't do as town. He's so ridiculously anti-town that it's hard for me to differentiate from anti-town/bad play from him in comparison to actually scum play from him. I don't know if the quickhammer is necessarily AI for *him*. That being said, his reasoning for doing so is awful. But then, his reasoning for doing like anything has been awful in my experience.

Seph, you acknowledged that you considered the fact that we may be in MYLO and that there could well be 4 scum. Placing someone at L-3 in this context is *really* not a good look, especially since you well know that we have a million lolvoters in this game.

Its certainly possible that TIAM is SK and that would explain why their playstyle is very outside of their norm this game.

And I don't get why you're pushing that TIAM might be SK instead of groupscum here?

Also, in 990, you literally forget about Flubber?

------

Seph, vote him.

Wave seems town to me. Vote TIAM, Seph. whats taking u too long?

I'm not a SK. Heck, i thought minis couldnt do SK, you would've known that if you read

Dude, there is literally no town motivation for ending the day right now. Like everything you've said this game day is like obviously, incredibly scummy.

Also the bolded kinda feels like you were trying to fake a townslip in that you didn't know that SKs could have minis.

[skitter30]

Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.

For no discernible reason, he hammered Eddie Cane, our doctor, before we could go after Vedith (pretty sure he was Game Replacement in that game) for lying about his night results.

@seph: I'll answer your other points later in depth cuz college and hw, but just to clarify:

There was PR cc clusterfuck that game. Iirc the details correctly, FL/GR (both scum) teamed up against Eddie to get Eddie the obvtown doc lynched. FL I think was in direct cc to Eddie (this is the detail that I'm don't remember the specifics of 3 months later). GR was almost for sure in direct cc with another town player, Egg, but was lurking so he wouldn't have to specify what his results were so he wouldn't be caught in a direct lie.

Thor, trying to sort through the mess, was shouting that no one should hammer so that town would have time to sort through all of this. Literally the next post, Two hammered Eddie after being warned not to like twelve times. Two was town.

like just read the hammer in context of this page:

viewtopic.php?p=9531055#p9531055

[skitter30]

@Seph: I don't think I'm going to have time answer you as I'd like to until sometime tomorrow afternoon; it's the last week of the quarter at my college.

Some shorter things:

I did learn my lesson. This is a different situation. But you are correct that I am town and had town motivation.

I never said or implied that I believed that you were town or that you had town motivation. At best, the quickhammer was NAI for you, at worst it's a scumclaim; I'm still not sure how to process it.

Seph/Serg/Implosion/Chip/Flubber have all expressed an interest, to some extent or another, in lynching Two today and/or have stated they believe Two to be scum (although, tbf, Flubber has unvoted and Chip has stated that the push for Two is sketchy). Unless you want to posit that the groupscum team is me/wave/Two, groupscum is promoting a Two lynch, which is unsettling and I don't like it. I can't tell right now if this is a Two bus or a Two mislynch.

I had to make a decision and it didn't work out.

No, you didn't have to make that decision just then. Again, she was at L-1, and you had the one vote. I still see *no* reason for that quickhammer to have happened whatsoever.

2 in a million, if ur town, vote for skitter

a) you were just saying that you thought he was scum

b) This is almost a scumclaim tbh. It's MYLO most likely. Voting right now is a bad idea, as we are *not* ready for the day (or game) to end. The fact that you're soliciting votes and trying to build a wagon right now is sketchy as fuck, given that I've now explained this like eight times.

[skitter30]

If a town vig shot dany last night, they kinda messed up, like a lot. Like, it's mind-boggling to me that a town vig would shoot a relatively widely townread voice of reason instead of, you know, the dude that decided quickhammering was a good idea.

Like why would they shoot someone that was townread instead of the guy that's always going to be a liability even if he's town?

Or, like, why they'd even shoot at all after two mislynches that left behind an incredibly disorganized and disunited town.

Like shooting dany would be such a bad idea after how yesterday's lynch went down that I'm having trouble even believing that this could be a thing.

[skitter30]

Or like they had to know that people would always be paranoid that they were an sk given the Wossi flip, especially if their target flipped town. I just don't see why a town vig ever does that.

And now I'm realizing that this post and the last are based on the assumption that players in this game are rational actors, which apparently isn't necessarily thing, so yeah.

[skitter30]

Order by username

Chip then flub then implosion

This is a surprisingly decent idea. If we go alphabetically, the order would be:

Chip
Flubber
Implosion
Seph
Serg
Me
Two - backup roleblocker
Wave

And I'm fine with this.

If no one has any major objections, I suggest Chip start.

[skitter30]

a massclaim with 3 scums alive? wtf are yall doing

a) we don't know that there are three scum alive

b) Do you not get that we might be in MYLO now?

[skitter30]

Chip
Flubber
Implosion
Seph
Serg - VT
Me
Two - backup roleblocker
Wave

[skitter30]

It's if we mislynch town, we lose.

Eight people alive. There's probably an SK, and there might be three groupscum. If those assumptions are true, it's 4-3-1 and we're in MYLO, and we can't lynch town if we want to win.

This is why I've been telling people not to vote yet.

[skitter30]

If there's an SK, I think 10-2-1 could be a thing maybe? I dunno.

[skitter30]

If a town-aligned vig shot wicked or dany, I'm going to be *really* annoyed, almost as much as that quickhammer.

The two kills last night + wossi flipping FBI agent (can check if people are SKs) = prob SK.

SK might be limited. See mini 1931, which me and wave were in. SK was novice (can't use action the first night) and one-shot. Something like that could be a thing here.

[skitter30]

Chip
Flubber - VT
Implosion
Seph
Serg - VT
Me - VT
Two - backup roleblocker
Wave

Since we're apparently just doing this in any old order, I'm VT.

Chip, we're prob in MYLO - massclaim helps us figure out if we're dealing with a vig or an SK. We might not get enough info through the claim to resolve that question, but it's possible we will. If we mislynch today, it doesn't really matter what people's roles are since the game will be over.

Basically agreeing with what implosion said.

Also I'm going to be much lower activity for the next few days since

A) finals started yesterday

B) my campus is just outside the danger zone for one of the wildfires near LA.

[skitter30]

Sigh.

Yeah, I started getting some niggling feelings that it might be you based on our interactions yesterday.

Still think you should have shot Two or Serg here always, but yeah, won't rehash that again.

KI'm like 85% certain you're town based on that last post. Guessing Wossi is a red herring. You prob shouldn't answer questions regarding how many shots you are etc etc etc.

Trying to figure out if we should finish this or not . . .

If you're actually a vig, there's no way there'd be an SK too I think? Too many kills that way.

So we're prob 5-3, which is still MYLO, so yeah I guess we finish this.

Spoiler:

If we lynch town today, chip doesn't kill tonight, tomorrow it's 3-3 and game.

If we lynch scum today, chip doesn't kill tonight, tomorrow it's 4-2, still MYLO.

If we lynch town today and chip kills town, game.

If we lynch town today and Chip kills scum, tomorrow it's 3-2, LYLO.

If we lynch scum today and Chip kills town, tomorrow it's 3-2, MYLO.

If we lynch scum today and Chip kills scum, tomorrow it's 4-1, not XYLO.

So yeah we're pretty much always in MYLO/LYLO here no matter what happens.

Should we talk about who you would target next?

I kinda want to make a flowchart about who ought to be shot depending on who gets lynched and what they flip to optimize this, but that's going to take time that I don't have today. (And of course accounting for the fact that the dude that I'd always want to get vigged here is apparently a backup roleblocker, so yeah).

(also everything's safe, just classes + exams have been cancelled, uncancelled, and recancelled about four trillion times in the last 36 hours, so my life has been a tad hectic).

[skitter30]

I find it unlikely that he's town due to that he didn't use his shot early on. That would have been the town thing to do as his survival is not gauranteed.SK motivation is to lay low and assume you'll survive to later on in the game and shoot then.

a) I don't think that 'not using shot early on' = scummy. I don't think in this game there was an inherently town motivation in shooting early.

b)I disagree with the assumption that not using all of your vig shots is scummy

c) Chip was never dying n1 in this game, regardless of his alignment, so it's silly to argue that he should have shot n1 so that he wouldn't have unused shots before he died

Is this too dumb to be scum? I keep wavering on that question.But skitter is right. I should have shot you, if only to stem the flow of dumb.

I mean, you shooting Dany instead of the dude who quickhammered yesterday is nearly as anti-town as that quickhammer, but dumb != scum, or this game would have been solved ages ago.

Unfortunately differentiating between anti-town and scummy is really difficult right now . . .

And Chip's never groupscum here, even if he is an SK, so I'm pretty sure we don't want to lynch him today anyways.

So, assuming 3 groupscum, there's three of them in {Seph, Implosion, Two, Serg, Flubber, and wave}.

And I'm pretty sure Flubber is town.

Scum/sk tend to lurk, while town do not.

This is a very blanket statement.

I do not know if it's true for scum/sk roles (have you even ever played in an SK game besides 1931, which I think you replaced into after the SK was dead?)

And while I agree that it would be scummy of a protective or investigative town role to not use their role, vig is kinda in a different category, and it can be anti-town for a vig to use their role (case in point: last night), so they might decide not to use their ability.

Like this is a super general statement that doesn't necessarily apply to many specific cases. In case it wasn't obvious, I think Chip's shot was anti-town. If he felt like his main two options were not to shoot or to shoot dany, I'd argue that he should have not shot last night.

Yeah she does but like yall saying yall suspect 2 in a million, i do too, so vote. dur.

HMMMMM...

I've felt like this literally every time he's posted this gameday.

[skitter30]

So, assuming 3 groupscum, there's three of them in {Seph, Implosion, Two, Serg, Flubber, and wave}.

Notice that of this group of six people, one of them is Two himself, and 4 of them (Seph, Implosion, Serg, and Flubber) are pushing a Two lynch. From my POV, there pretty much has to be groupscum within {Seph, Implosion, Serg, and Flubber}, so this Two push is pretty much guaranteed to have scum pushing it. This is making me really nervous, especially since town!Two is like scum's dream MYLO mislynch.

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

wossi/seph/wave/skitter/serg towny

I would vote lalendra, tiam, wicked, possibly implosion

I feel neglected

don't feel neglected.

If you had an instant one shot bullet right now and had to use it, who would you shoot?

Also, what is the best strategy for reading somebody like TwoInAMillion?

I'd shoot the guy my vote is on (wave), obv. Kind of a non-question. Also for neglecting me.

First time playing with TIAM. Strikes me as a lynchbait type. Best way to read is through that filter.

wossi/seph/wave/skitter/serg towny

I would vote lalendra, tiam, wicked, possibly implosion

I feel neglected

don't feel neglected.

If you had an instant one shot bullet right now and had to use it, who would you shoot?

Also, what is the best strategy for reading somebody like TwoInAMillion?

I'd shoot the guy my vote is on (wave), obv. Kind of a non-question. Also for neglecting me.

First time playing with TIAM. Strikes me as a lynchbait type. Best way to read is through that filter.

I don't think it's a non-question

If you want to lynch someone, you've got to get six other people to agree with you.
If you could just insta-kill someone, you don't
Sometimes wagons just refuse to grow on scummy players...

Okay that's a fair point. Would prob still shoot wave but Taco is also growing stronger as a contender the longer he is AWOL.

What the fuck drugs are you on, moron?

The kind that made me read 611 as you. I apologize. This just makes the whole Serg + Mulch thing even weirder to me.

You conflated Taco and me? Now, that really IS insulting lol.

Either or both could be trolling the game. Either or both could be scum. Neither can be allowed to make it to lylo/mylo.

In addition to my reads above, I want to make it clear i regard Mulch and Taco as LYLOabilities, a word i just made up to describe someone who would be a liability in LYLO...

I thought a normal would only have two factions?

Seph vs. Lalendra also happened because Lalendra doesn't realize (or wants us to THINK she doesn't realize) that there could be more then one faction of scum in normal.

Do you have any positive reason for raising the possibility of multibsll?

Chip, you wanna talk about these posts in light of your claimed actions?

[skitter30]

Huh, ok, that makes a lot more sense actually. I was contemplating if someone was lying because the claims as they stand are kinda bizarre and really make no sense together, especially not in a 10-3 world, and so i figured that there probably was another investigative, prob a gunsmith, but I thought it was someone else.

Gunsmith + FBI agent + roleblocker + vig/sk + backup roleblocker (maybe, might be scum if it exists, especially if chip is actually sk) make a lot of sense together actually.

If someone else lied and is actually a protective, stay on Serg.

If you don't die, I think you check chip? One of vig/sk returns positive to gunsmiths, and the other returns negative; I always forget which is which and I have to check the wiki.

Not sure though. Implosion would be cool too.

Before we all vote Two and end the day, do we try to direct Chip's shot?

[skitter30]

So, from my POV:

Serg is town

Chip is either vig or sk.

So groupscum is within {wave, two, Seph, Flubber, and implosion} with a guilty on Two.

Leaving the rest in {wave, Seph, Flubber, and implosion}, which means people were bussing him.

I kinda think implosion is prob scum here.

[skitter30]

You don't think I think you're scum here? Why? Explain why you think that.

Yeah this explains why I felt like you were faking a scumread on me.

[skitter30]

Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.

Then you're naive about good vig play. It's not about my personal feelings, it's about who most people want dead. Get rid of them at night so we don't have to debate about it

If Two is a backup roleblocker, he's going to rb Chip ...

Yeah that's the best play, but Two can prevent it from happening. Logistically it's close to impossible.

[skitter30]

I don't have a gun. Serg is lying. Two investigative roles is VERY unlikely. Scum is probably Serg and either wave imp or Sept and sk chip.

If it's 10-3, there pretty much has to be another investigative. It doesn't make sense for the only cop-like role to be able to check for a role that doesn't exist in the game. I was thinking about this this morning - 10-3 with vig + roleblocker + FBI agent + backup roleblocker just doesn't make sense as a cohesive set-up.

Rb + backup rb + FBI agent kinda works for 10-2-1 if you squint, (not really imo, but slightly more than the setip above), which is why I started looking at whether chip could make sense as an sk.

[skitter30]

Sure but if he's lying about his role, then he dies

I don't think he is actually, especially if chip is sk. Backup scum roleblocker makes a lot of sense here, and I was kinda wondering if that was a thing all game day.

[skitter30]

I think wave is also scum

Not sure if he is tbh. I was kinda thinking that he might be the mystery investigatve that lied about being a VT. And I can understand where he was coming from regarding Two, since honestly Two has done things like that before.

Gunsmith gets guilties on:

Scum, vigs, and

fbi agents

, but not SKs. So if you survive, I think you check Chip to resolve him?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gunsmith

Do we want Chip to shoot anyone?

You don't think I think you're scum here? Why? Explain why you think that.

Yeah this explains why I felt like you were faking a scumread on me.

Yeah xD i was like damn skitter knows whats up with that fake scumread xD

Yeah It felt super artificial, especially given 1946, and I know that you're a lot more aware than you were trying to portray yourself as, so I attributing the artificialness to scum!serg trying to get me lynched here.

Yeah but that's the thing, if the scum have a roleblocker, our "vig" is useless no matter who he shoots or says he's going to shoot. They're not going to risk it

And that's why we lynch Two here.

Well, I am def not a backup scum rb. When was the last time you saw a scum backup backing up a town? Isn't that kind of bastard?

I was going to quote the wiki, because I thought the wiki page said that backups could be of either alignment, but I can't find the quote. Either way, I'm pretty sure this is a thing.

In any case, TIAM and Serg are in a 1v1 and we have a "vig" shot. Let's say TIAM is scum roleblocker - like skitter says, we can't kill him at night, since he will block chip. So, we lynch him today, then if he flips town we vig Serg. Either way, tomorrow there will we be only 2 scum left and we keep the game going. Any objections?

I mean, we'd be depending on Chip to go along with this. But I think he will, even if he's actually an SK:

If Two flips town, and Chip is an SK, we're 3-3-1, and Chip killing a townie and scum also killing a townie makes it 1-3-1 and sk!Chip loses. He'd need to shoot scum here (in this scenario, serg), to make it 2-2-1 to have a chance of winning.

So yeah, no objections.

If Two flips scum, we're 4-2-1 if Chip is an SK. Scum shoots town, 3-2-1. IF CHIP SHOOTS IN THIS SCENARIO I WOULD TREAT IT AS A SCUMCLAIM FROM HIM. (Although I don't know if we could per se do anything about it at that point). But just saying.

Again, if Chip shoots after Two flips scum, I'm pretty sure that's a scumclaim.

p-edit: yeah see above.

[skitter30]

They have to decide between shooting chip and shooting Serg . . . I guess Serg probably ought to not check Chip in that case? idk. Let him decide I guess.

K, I gotta go till tom night. I don't want the day to end before chip sees this and agrees (which is why I'm not voting right now).

[skitter30]

Because he's lying.

You do realize you're in a direct 1v1 with Serg and that you're calling him a liar but that you're not trying to get him lynched? You aren't even voting him right now - you're voting Chip.

[skitter30]

Question for everyone: If i was SK and I knew the FBI detective was dead but didn't know there was a gunsmith, why would I make my life difficult by claiming vig?

As opposed to not claiming at all?

Like I said, I was pretty sure it was you, after you gave a hypothetical defense of a dany shot.

You were either claiming there or never claiming, and you took yourself out of the lynchpool by claiming because we need to lynch groupscum and you're never groupscum here.

I'm still not sold that you aren't an SK... I'm tending to thinking that you are actually. But it doesn't matter right now.

Anyway, can you answer the question I directed at you ok the last page?

[skitter30]

If 2IAM flips town, I shoot Taco, else holster. Right?

Yep.

Scum, just pointing out that if you kill Serg, you're conftowning me (not groupscum per Serg, and chip is claiming vig/sk). So just food for thought when you think about the night kill. Not going to go into which kill I think is optimal here though.

So, if I somehow die overnight and theres a second death in literally any other scenario than the one yuou described above, I'm telling people to treat it as a legit scumclaim from you.

[skitter30]

No. Chip isn't groupscum here. He's either vig or SK given that no one else claimed the extra shot last night, and I don't think that scum have the ability to kill more than once per night.

VOTE: Two

[skitter30]

So, I'm low key confused why multiple people have posted since Chip and have said they want to lynch two but I'm the only person voting there.

[skitter30]

He unvoted cuz I asked him to wait for chip. There pretty much has to be another investigative in this game beyond FBI agent. If it's 10-3, the only investigative would be a guy who can't get a guilty on anyone cuz the role he exists to find isn't in the game.

If it's 10-2-1, the only investigative can find the sk but can't find groupscum - it makes slightly more sense than the 10-3 case, but just barely. And we also aren't in MYLO here. Its 5-2-1, and tomorrow it's 3-2-1 if two flips town. It would be MYLO tomorrow.

So we either have another investigative, or it isn't MYLO (or possibly both).

Also, like I said a bunch of times - Serg's a lot smarter and more aware than he was playing this game, which is why I was scumreading him, cuz I thought he was dumbing things down and playing up his confusion like in 1946.

His play makes *a lot* of sense if he was playing badly so as to not be the night kill. The quality of his posts pre/post claim are markedly different.

[skitter30]

In an ideal universe, I'd want you to check Chip to resolve the SK thing that's always going to be hanging over our heads. However, I don't think we have a lynch to spare on him even if he an SK, so whether or not he's an SK is kinda irrelevant.

I think you check whoever you find scummiest in {flubber, wave, implosion, and seph}.

The order I'd go in would be: implosion > wave > seph > flubber, but pick whichever of them you find scummiest.

And probably don't announce who you want to check tbh.

[skitter30]

Now that I think about it, I kinda want wave and Chip to commit to hard scumreads before the day ends (and for implosion to figure out which of the options above he thinks is most likely).

Especially Chip.

UNVOTE:

Unvote till this happens I think.

[skitter30]

Cool, thanks. Def want Chip to answer that before the day ends.

[skitter30]

So if you are really a gunsmith then skitter is town...

Well, technically I'm confirmed to not have a gun, which means I can't be groupscum unless I'm a scum doctor (note to self: if two = scum roleblocker implosion's post at the top of this page is super sketchy), and I theoretically could be SK since Serg doesn't get guilties on them (but you claimed the extra kill, so you know I'm not). So yeah.

We have like three days or something. I'm fine waiting. Before the day ends, I want you to:

A) respond to 1094

B) commit to hard scumreads.

[skitter30]

Skitter, you're confirmed not to have a gun by a guy I'm instructed to shoot tonight if his 2IAM read doesn't pan out, ie someone who is not locktown himself.

If 2IAM flips green and i shoot Taco and he flips red and I get NKed, at least give serious thought to scum.skitter.

Well, *someone* pretty much has to be another investigative here, but fair enough lol.

Also, he isn't saying he *scumreads* Two, but that he *has a kinda-guilty* on Two, which are not nearly the same thing. And you then go on to treat him (and therefore me) as town like four posts down, so I'm not really sure what the point of the above post is.

I actually think it is unlikely scum.Taco would put himself in a 1v1 with 2IAM at this point, so he and skitter are prob town. Then again, he's Taco.

This sequence, where everyone in the game agrees to the plan I put forward, but then Serg unvotes and I'm curious as to why he did so?

The unvote came immediately after I said I wanted to wait for chip to agree to the vig plan, so I'm pretty sure that's what the 'discussion' there was referring to - how we handle Chip's shots, not about who to lynch.

I don't think the him being drunk posts are towntells. I don't see why he can't make those posts as scum.

Why does scum!Flubber get so annoyed with Two for that quickhammer that he wants to say bannable things to him? Like . . . scum!Flubber should be pretty happy with the gamestate there, especially if Two is town, as he appeared to be thinking at the time.

980 kinda bleeds town. If Two is town, yeah he fucked over the gamestate, and that reaction makes a lot of sense from town!flubber who's incredibly annoyed about how the game unfolded. Like, for him to be scum making that post, he'd have to fake despondency and demotivation? Like it seems so much more genuine from a town mindset. I think it would be a lot easier to fake anger at the quickhammer than demotivation tbh. And he'd have to fake that over several real-life days. I dunno. I just don't see that post coming from scum like ever.

Now that I'm a laptop:

(note to self: if two = scum roleblocker implosion's post at the top of this page is super sketchy

refers to

Could still be scum doctor, but doctor + roleblocker would be quite a lot of power for scum to have here,

This line, in conjunction with the fact that implosion never really talks about the possibility of two fake-claiming, kinda implies that he *knows* that Two isn't fake-claiming (at least the roleblocker bit). I dunno if I'm wording this right to get my point across, but he just kinda takes it as a given that scum!Two isn't lying about his role. Like he starts off with the assumption that scum!roleblocker is a thing but doesn't consider the possibility that two may be lying, and then draws the conclusion that scum!doctor is probably too much if scum also have a roleblocker,

but doesn't consider the case where scum doesn't have a roleblocker

. It sounds like he kinda knows that Two isn't lying about his role.

I dunno, I hope that made some semblance of sense.

[skitter30]

VOTE: Two

Still want an answer from Chip about 1094

[skitter30]

Because he's lying.

You do realize you're in a direct 1v1 with Serg and that you're calling him a liar but that you're not trying to get him lynched? You aren't even voting him right now - you're voting Chip.

[skitter30]

if skitter is still waiting for chip to answer something

Also interested in hearing Chip's answer to 1094 but I don't think its particularly relevant to the end of today.

I actually think it's kinda important for him to answer before the end of the day, but it's been like half a week and if he isn't going to answer, I don't really see the point in dragging the day out sitting around waiting for a response that isn't going to happen.

I do strongly believe that if he *doesn't* answer today, this is definitely something that that should be explored and pressed tomorrow.

But yeah I'm basically fine with ending the day cuz I don't particularly think he's actually going to answer it - but it *must* be answered tomorrow.

I can easily see it as scum!Flubber being genuinely angry at his scumbuddy for quickhammering, and just taking a piece of that anger out in the thread while still playing the game.

Why? If Two is town, scum!flubber just won the game with a two mislynch, which was pretty much inevitable. If Two is scum, he was just handed an oppurtunity to bus. Kinda hard for me to believe that partner!flubber is that annoyed and sat on the anger for like three days instead of hashing it out in scumchat overnight when they presumably would have interacted with each other.

I don't get why scum!flubber is that angry there, three days after the fact.

Demotivation doesn't have to be faked as scum. It can be for a variety of reasons. It could be because he was legitimately demotivated from his scumbuddy quickhammering, or because he's not enjoying the game as either alignment, or because he has other RL things on his mind, etc. These are largely valid reasons as either alignment.

That's fair; scum certainly be demotivated. But the demotivation there is explicitly linked to the possibility of town!Two fucking over the game. I don't really see scum!flubber being demotivated in that context when the win was just handed to him on a silver platter.

Yeah honestly not sure why I was assuming this. I guess I was just thinking about the setups that we could be under under the assumption that's what he is. Shrug. I can see what you mean, but I think it's just an artifact of the way I was thinking about the game at that moment. If TIAM is fakeclaiming then I wouldn't be surprised if scum have a doctor (either if he's fakeclaiming as a doctor or as a goon, or maybe as some other minor scum role but probably not).

And I believe that making unsubstantiated assumptions about the veracity of a claim, like you do here, is a scumtell.

Namely,I believe that the way you were thinking about the game at the moment is inherently more likely to be a scum mindset since scum has less reason or incentive to question claims, regardless of the alignment of the claimer.

I really like implosion, he gives me towny vibes. the "shurg" and the unvote is so towny. if hes scum i really need to step up my game.

anyway, idk what to make of chip, at first i thought he could be a vig because no one else CC him then i was thinking well.... if he's a sk he could NOT kill the first night, kill the 2nd night so that way he can say he's a vig. Chip, you a vig right? prove us by killing anyone but me, implosion and skitter.

Since no one cc'd him, Chip is responsible for the dany shot. The question is if he's a vig or an SK. I'm pretty sure that we're too close to mylo/lylo for Chip to be taking random shots. If two flips town, you lied and he shoots you and we get a scumflip so we don't lose the game. If two flips scum, he does nothing so we don't lose the game.

[skitter30]

I'm like 75/25 on town!Flubber right now, which is better odds than anyone else I'd give in {flubber, wave, implosion, and seph).

Saying I don't see scum flub being that angry is the whole point. Scum flub would not be legit angry. he would be faking. The level of anger doesn't make any sense when you consider flub has been a passive observer at best throughout the game.

Have you played other games with him? I can def see the anger being real, and I don't really see scum!flubber getting angry like that here.

Yeah I'm basically ready to end the day here.

If Two flips scum, I think Implosion is the lynch tomorrow, barring serg surviving and having a guilty on someone.

If Two flips town, chip shoots Serg. Otherwise, don't do anything..

[skitter30]

If you're SK, I could totally see you taking some other shot and if the game somehow doesn't end overnight, tomorrow attribute it to Serg encouraging you to shoot elsewhere on the previous page.

[skitter30]

I mean ... I wouldn't have nearly as much trouble with you if you had shot one of the LYLO liabilities like Two, instead of someone who was largely townread.

Although tbf, the game would have looked incredibly different now if you had shot Serg, but the point remains.

[skitter30]

I guess the reason I don't see it as particularly relevant today is that it won't impact whether we lynch him today nor his behavior during the night phase. Pretty important tomorrow though.

No, but I thought there was a better than decent chance that that convo would change

scum's

behavior last night. Namely, I was nurturing a very small hope that it would make Chip into a bigger threat than Serg and that they'd kill him instead of Serg.

Sorry Chip. Thought it was the easiest way of resolving you.

So it all comes down to wavemode, seph, and implosion

Yep. I'm at implosion > wave =Seph right now.

I'd love to hear wave explain his last post when the others respond.

I need to go through two's ISO at some point.

[skitter30]

In case people weren't aware, deadline is Friday night (for people in North America).

Also Wave, Serg, I hope your finals went well!

-----

skitter: cleared by gunsmith. Could still be scum doctor, but doctor + roleblocker would be quite a lot of power for scum to have here, and I still think she's town a priori anyway.

Here apparently.

I still harbor some suspicion that Flubber could be scum doc.

Are you still harboring some suspicion that I could be a scum doc?

I think it's fairly likely scum have some power role, and a doctor (possibly limited) is the most automatic/natural thing to throw into a setup that has a gunsmith and a vigilante

I was thinking BP, but then I remembered that gunsmiths get innos on scum docs, so I'll concede the point.

Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate. Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so

Given the possibility of a scum doc, is asking to get investigated sketchy?

Of course this is all moot if I can't convince skitter to look again at Flubber but I digress.

I'm fairly confident that he's town tbh. He's my most confident townread beyond Serg, who isn't even so much a townread so much as a read based on his role (his play makes sense given his role, and the role is needed for balance reasons) But given that we're in MYLO again (and forever), I'll look at him again.

I'm not convinced Flubber is town which means fmpov today isn't as simple as just blindly lynching either wave or seph. I'm going to do significant re-reads on both of them most likely tomorrow.

Tbh this feels like you're trying to widen the lynchpool to include probable clears - like we aren't lynching flubber today.

Skitter, is your read on me at this point mostly PoE? The main thing that you've repeatedly mentioned is that you just don't think I've strongly towntold. If so, can you list your reasons for seph-town and wave-town that you think are stronger reasons than you have for me being town? Partially because I know at least one of them has to be scum but also partially because I do think it might be only one of them and I need to reassess the things from each of them that I think have been significant towntells.

Yeah pretty much. Flubber I'm fairly confident is town. Serg is town for balance reasons. Seph towntold a lot day 1. Wave towntold a lot day 3.

I'm going to have to go through their ISOs to point specifically why though, but this is def a thing I want to do anyways since I need to reevaluate both of them. And I'm on break now, so I have time for such things lol.

Implosion, do you prefer playing town or scum more? Can you link me to a recent town/scum game? Your wiki's out of date by several years lol.

[skitter30]

Hmm, OK, going through Two's ISO:

Spoiler:

Because I don't want to see town lynched?

We are a day into the game, there's a lot more left to happen day 1. Why the rush?

This is about Flubber. Indicating that he wants to stay off of a town wagon, or trying to keep the wagon off of a scumbuddy?

VOTE: wosi

As skitter noted, they waited until it felt safe to hop on my wagon before voting.

I also scum read chip butty. In 44 they remove their rvs vote, but in the subsequent post place a new rvs vote.

Sephiroph, I think you are town, but I don't like the activity precedent you are trying to set, and I'm being upfront now about probably not following it.

Not liking that there are things you might not be upfront about.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

But then he follows up with this. I dunno. I don't *think* this is a distancing vote tbh.

I'm not liking Sergtacos pushing the claiming scum thing...

VOTE: SergtacosVOTE:

Sorry I mean seph, not serg.

VOTE: Sephiroth

Confuses Serg and Seph. Would he confuse a scumbuddy here? I'm leaning towards no.

I thought the bad push on flub was more anti-town than then flub's idiot posting.

I thought the bad push on flub was more anti-town than then flub's idiot posting.

It wasn't a bad push, it was an early d1 pressure push. Please return to the noob queue until you get the concept.

I think flub is probably town so it's a bad push in my book.

Hmmm. A lot of posts about how Flubber is probably town. . . .

OK, that was largely useless. Most notable associative he seems to have with a living player is with flubber and how he keeps on saying Flubber is probably town.

And that he confuses Seph and Serg. I'm tending towards him *not* confusing a partner with a townie.

More later. I need to look at seph/imp/wave as well.

[skitter30]

Flub has no gun

You got that he doesn't have a gun, right? You didn't get 'no result?'

[skitter30]

OK, I think I can buy that.

so i figured that there probably was another investigative, prob a gunsmith, but I thought it was someone else.

This was wave btw, so I believe this.

Odd-night seems a tad off given that everyone else appears to be full night though, but overall, I'm buying this.

And Seph's behavior yesterday works a lot as a bus. It especially explains why he wasn't worried about MYLO - voting his partner kinda makes that fear irrelevant. And Wave's behavior day 3 never makes sense as a partner tbh.

Seph - I feel like I may have been pocketed by you tbh

And this has been bothering me a lot honestly, since early day 2, with the wossi kill. When I towntell this hard . . .. I kinda expect to be dead like ages ago, and me not being dead raises major red flags, and tells me that my reads should probably be turned upside down. Sometimes not being dead can be attributed to PRs who are a higher kill priority than me, but that didn't apply to this game night 1 or night 2.

{Seph}
{chip, dany}
{two, flubber}
{implosion}
{serg} -
{wicked} -
{Lalendra, wossi} -
{wave}
{Mulch}

Pretty sure this is why I wasn't dead night 1. Notice who's at the top of the list.

Wicked getting killed night 2 also was a bit weird, but makes sense now given the Two flip.

Wave, can you point out the beginning of your crumb?

[skitter30]

Oh, also, scum probably don't have a roleblocker. If they did, they'd presumably have rb'd one of Serg/Chip and killed the other, but Serg wasn't rb'd.

[skitter30]

So, to summarize:

Serg - gunsmith
Wave- odd night vanilla cop
Implosion - VT, checked by wave n1, who said he is vanilla
Seph - VT, checked by wave n3, who said he is not vanilla
me - VT, gunsmith cleared n1
flubber - VT, gunsmith cleared n3

Flips:

Chip - town vigi
Wossi - town FBI agent - functionally a named townie who gives a guilty to the gunsmith
Lalendra - roleblocker

Mulch, Dany, Wicked, - VT

Two - mafia goon.


So, if all the claimed PRs are true, we have:

Vigi/odd-night VC/Roleblocker/gunsmith/FBI Agent

5 VTs (me, mulch, dany, wicked, {one of implosion/flubber})

scum goon (1 or 2)
scum PR (1 or 2)

It gets messier if wave is lying, but I don't think he is.

[skitter30]

Hmmm, ok. I was hoping it was from earlier, but it at least pre-dates Serg's claim.

[skitter30]

Yeah the synergy with gunsmith is a bit tricky.

Like in this setup, the two of you basically get overlapping results in most scenarios. And neither of you get *alignment* based guilties alone. Together you might be able to, but only if you had happened to target the same person and they were like a VT or a goon.

If serg had gotten 'has a gun', and you got 'vanilla', between the two of you, you'd have found a goon.

If serg had gotten 'has a gun', and you got 'not-vanilla', between the two of you, you'd have found a gun-wielding PR, but you don't know the alignment. It could have been a theoretical scum roleblocker, or it could have been wossi, the FB agent.

If serg had gotten 'does not have a gun', and you got 'vanilla', you found a vanilla townie between the two of you.

If serg had gotten 'does not have a gun', and you got 'not vanilla', you'd have found a PR without a gun between the two of you. It could be a theoretical scum doc, or it could have been Lalendra, the rb.

So yeah. We don't have a PR who can get straight guilties or innos by themselves, but the two of you together can in limited scenarios. And of course you can out if someone lied about their role . . . .

[skitter30]

Spoiler: response to implosion

You mentioned being better as town than as scum earlier and if you're scum you've been playing a really damn good game since you got gunsmith cleared, along with having been town in general before then. I can justify it more specifically if you want

Nah I'm good. I have a good enough sense of the gamestate to know that I should be townread by like everyone, independent of serg's result. I was trying to probe at your Flubber read.

And yeah this is never my scumgame. I wish I could play scum like this, but as of right now, this isn't a thing I am capable of.

With Flubber it's entirely possible that I'm just falling into confirmation bias. But I just feel like the game makes more sense if Flubber is scum.

If you're scum, that's pretty much where you have to go though, since neither me nor Serg are getting lynched anytime soon, and you're pushing Seph. Assuming a 3-man scum team, your only two other options are wave and flubber.

How do you now feel about Flubber/seph?

I'd guess Flubber+wave off the top of my head but Flubber+seph wouldn't surprise me.

Correct, we aren't lynching him today and I was very explicit in my agreement with not lynching him today. Flubber-scum is something I want to think about more deeply tomorrow in the event that we get a second goon flip today, essentially. If we get a scum power role flip, then I much more strongly doubt Flubber being scum.

How does theory hold up given wave's claim? Namely, if we flip Seph and he's a scum PR, what does this say about Flubber and wave and yourself, given that Serg is gunsmith and I'm townread?

I have to read through your ISOs of those games you linked, so I'll get back to you about those.

Spoiler: @implosion, regarding the Seph ISO you started. @seph too now that I write more

62-65 - I don't think that this is necessarily faked. I don't think it either rules out partners or substantiates it.

Because I don't want to see town lynched?

What do you think about this? What do you think the significance of Two calling Flubber town is here?

105 - I don't think this looks like a bus either? It's just an off-hand mention of not liking one of Two's posts. I'm not really sure why you're characterizing this as a maybe-bus tbh. There's very little pressure on Two at all. It's a post about other people where he throws in a mention about not liking Two, but doesn't even directly follow up on this suspicion, even after Two responds to it.

175 - agree with you about this one. This is the first time he follows up on the Two suspicion, but doesn't actually interact with Two about it, and ends up voting Lalendra

Agree with you that it's odd that he has Two as nulltown at day2 daystart given that day1 progression.

(ie maybe town-seph just had too many stronger scumreads at that point)

I think this is unlikely:

Town: Skitter and Implosion
Townish: Flub and Wicked
Null w/ town lean: TIAM
Null w/ scum lean: Serg
Null/No Read: Dany, Chip, Wavemode.

He has no strong scumreads at ths point. Not sure why he isn't just in the null pile.

It's also odd that the two of you have mutually had strong townreads on each other throughout the game. I'm not sure why he has you as strong-town here tbh.

A lot of his ISO is pocket-y of me reading back, and is often adding weight to my pushes and agreeing with me :/

basically just adopts whatever Skitter's opinion

Like . . . this can be easily applied to how Seph reacted to my Mulch push. Like his whole Mulch push is just an amplification of my own.

I need to go through the rest of his ISO in greater depth at some point; right now just concentrating on the bits you highlighted and making sure I see most of the Seph/Two interactions through the start of day 2 and commenting on assorted other things that catch my eye as I go through this.

VOTE: skitter
not anymore

OMG I hate playing with you.

It seems a lot to me like you're just trolling the game at this point. I guess if your idea of playing is literally doing things at complete random, Skitters actual attempts to find scum must seem pretty 'tryhard'.

Seph is town BTW

So do you have a reason or did I miss Skitter post something to this effect?

:/

--through the end of day1. I'll look at the rest later.

[skitter30]

@wave: We are in MYLO, and I do want to hear what Seph has to say before I vote.

[skitter30]

Skitter, I guess I'm just going to speak to you here because its really up to you what happens today.

Yeah, I know. Hopefully I don't screw this up

It's a good thing this happened while I'm on break lol. Def would not have had time for this last week.

From my POV, me and Serg are town. I'm still pretty sure Flubber is town. {Wave/Seph} presumably contain exactly one scum, which leaves Implosion as the odd man out. I'm pretty sure Implosion is always scum here. Before I was contemplating the possibility of wave/seph, leaving implosion to be town, but that isn't a thing anymore.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that

everyone

takes {me/Serg} to be town right now, one of {Wave/Seph} to contain scum, and then one of {Flubber/implosion} to contain scum.

All of the below is @seph but I just spoilered it into parts so that it doesn't become super unwieldy.

(I wrote a lot, and I don't really expect you to go point by point through this cuz it's a lot. I bolded the stuff I would actually appreciate a response to).

--------

Spoiler:

No other odd/even night actions...this sounds like a detail added to just make the role feel less generic and faked, but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup. It gives him a convenient means of limiting the results he needs to fake and also allows him to claim he backed off implosion 'cuz results'.

Why does he need to back off implosion here? He actually isn't backing off implosion; he's said yesterday he thought it was you/implosion.

Also, I'd agree with you on the even/odd night thing, except I've played in a mini normal recently (1946) where all the PRs except one were full-night. IE loyal cop, miller, jailkeeper, were full night, as was the scum loud fruit vendor. There was *also* an odd-night tracker, presumably odd-night so a convo like this would happen. I was scum that game and I was actually worried that the JK was lying and was even-night bp or something so that it would be more balanced on the even/odd night thing, but that wasn't a thing.

And I have a high enough opinion of Wave that I think he'd pick a fake-claim that actually matches the set-up. I don't know why he'd fake-claim odd-night here instead of just fake-claiming full-night. I don't think odd-night adds credibility; if anything, I think it detracts from it. And I think everyone else has claimed already so it wouldn't be too hard to fake a result for night 2. Like he could have just said I'm vanilla or whatever, and people woudn't have batted an eye.

Also, I was kinda expecting you to attack this on the grounds of wave's claim tipping the game towards being too townsided. Kinda surprised that you didn't go that route tbh. Not sure if it's significant, but just thought I'd mention it.

- The breadcrumb is weak sauce. I think town with PR here would be damn sure to get their full bread crumb and the reason for stopping doesn't really hold any water if you're doing the first letter of every post.

I don't think PRs always crumb. I sure don't.

Skitter literally sets this up for you perfectly by repeatedly saying there had to be another investigative. Skitter in about 3 posts claims there must be an investigative remaining and then bam wave claims that today.

I said I thought that there had to be another investigative in relation to

why I believed Serg

. Game didn't make sense without any useful (ie not wossi) investigative at all. After we all claimed and Serg then claimed gunsmith, I said I had thought someone was lying about being an investigative and that I was expecting it to be someone else (specifically wave), but that I believed Serg because an investigative had to exist.

I was *not* expecting another claim after Serg.

Also wave's crumbs (1092-1095) came from before I said that (1106) and before Serg claimed (1100).

------

Spoiler:

Like his whole Mulch push is just an amplification of my own.

and is often adding weight to my pushes and agreeing with me

I think its actually fairly insulting to say that I only amplified or latched on to your pushes.

I didn't say that you 'only amplified or latched on to [my] pushes'?

In fact, I specifically said 'often' and 'Mulch push' because I'm very cognizant of the fact that we differed on the Flubber, and Wossi things (and for a while, the Lalendra thing as well).

OK, looking back, 'often' is maybe an overexageration and a mischaracterization, because it only applies to Mulch. But to say that I said that you *only* amplified or latched onto my pushes is a misrep of what *I* said.

And I don't think it's a misrep to say that you amplified my Mulch push.

My points on the Mulch wagon were unique from yours. I mean you literally said 'what seph said' in response to someone asking you about the Mulch wagon because my point was not one you had made.

OK and .... ?

Maybe you don't like my use of the word 'amplification,' or maybe I didn't get across what I'm trying to say. I pushed Mulch. You took my side and added weight to the push, yes, by adding some new and unique points. That's what I meant by 'amplify'. The reason why I have a problem with this is because looking back, the manner in which you did so looks kinda pocket-y (ie posts like 612).

I don't know how the fact that you added points to the Mulch push is relevant to this discussion.

Regardless of alignment, just believe me when i tell you: I don't appreciate how serg generally plays the game, I like players who analyze and TRY and I don't like someone being attacked for actually putting effort into the game. If you want to also believe its a tell thats your prerogative but my frustration here is 100% genuine =/

Yeah and I don't disagree that players like serg can make the game difficult and hard to play, and I totally understand your frustration with him.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure this frustration is AI :/

Sorry but that's not true. In that post I discuss thinking that TIAMs 68 is scummy, and speak to wanting to read some of TIAMs games to get a better read.

I also REALLY don't like Post 68 from twoinamillion. The reasoning seems manufactured and they had JUST finished trying to shut down any discussion involving Flub's claim. Seems a little sketchy to interpret Flub's post that way and turn it into a vote.

This is everything you said in 'that post' (105) about TIAM. You call it 'manufactured' and 'sketchy'. You don't say anything there about wanting to read his games, so I'm not sure why you're saying I said things that weren't true about this post. Like I'm not sure what the 'not true' things I said were here.

(Like I'm always going to go back and check when people say things like that and I remember them differently).

And the point that I made is that this looks kinda off-hand given that it's a large post about multiple people and you just throw it in there without (immediately) doing anything about it. Yes you can only vote one person at a time, but this was in response to Implosion calling this a bus, and my point is that the way you interacted with TIAM in 105 is not exactly a bus.

Like I'm agreeing with you that you were pushing Two there. I'm disagreeing with implosion that it was a bus. I don't really get what we're discussing here tbh, or what exactly you're trying to clarify wrt to this point.

well crafted fake claim

but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup.

Well . . . is it well-crafted or not?

I DID have a stronger scum read, I had someone that I was certain was scum. I don't know how you missed the literal very next part of my post.

That's fair. What I meant to say 'does not have a large number of significant scumreads at that point'. I didn't forget about your Lalendra thing, I was just focusing on the readslist.

Again, this was in response to implosion saying 'maybe TIAM was nulltown because Seph felt he had too many major scumreads at that point', and I was pointing to that readslist to show that you *didn't* have that many major scumreads at that point. You only had the one. So that wouldn't be a good explanation for why TIAM was nulltown there when he had been scum the day before. (The fact that I forgot to include Lalendra doesn't actually negate this point).

LIke I kinda feel like me/implosion are raising some legitimate points and that you're focusing on details to debunk them, when the details aren't actually that relevant to the points that I'm raising.

[skitter30]

Also...

Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate. Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so

Why would someone as a vanilla cop (who has a gun) ask to be investigated here when they know it only serves to muddy the waters or potentially get them mislynched? If Wave were really someone who returns as having a gun it doesn't make any sense to ask to get investigated, and it makes perfect sense to ask to be investigated as scum after the investigative explicitly tells you theyre not investigating you.

I think he did it for the towncred since Serg had been implying he wouldn't check him. I don't think it's especially AI though. If he was trying to soft 'Not PR' it makes sense that he would ask to be checked if he didn't think he was going to be checked anyways.

I think I explicitly believe the claim. I don't know if the claim itself is inherently AI. (Namely, I'm positing that scum VC could make sense here balance-wise).

Despite that, I think there's def one scum and one townie between Wave/Seph, and I don't really think scum!VC!wave and townie!PR!seph makes sense in this specific context.

Like if scum!VC!wave gets a 'not vanilla' result on townie!PR!Seph, I feel like Seph would just claim PR, but didn't.

I'm pretty sure I believe the claim though, which leads me to believe town!VC!wave and scum!PR!Seph is the universe we're living in.

But I'm not really ready to end this though. Need to finish looking at wave/seph's ISOs.

@seph: If he *is* lying, he was clearly planning this since at least yesterday because he was clearly waiting for you to claim before he did - look at the timestamps and how you two were the last two to claim and how he claimed immediately (immediately wrt to timezones/sleep) after you did. So I don't buy that he planned it overnight after Serg claimed.

[skitter30]

The idea that a single investigation is more valuable than properly working with the town through massclaim is what being crackbrained actually looks like

I mean . . . .Serg was hoping to do the same thing yesterday.

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

And that vig was suspected to be a maybe!SK, and decided to shoot a guy who was townread instead of the guy who quickhammered, so yeah.

Plenty of people have done idiotic things this game, so wave not claiming yesterday doesn't raise that many red-flags for me right now tbh.

[skitter30]

The idea that a single investigation is more valuable than properly working with the town through massclaim is what being crackbrained actually looks like

I mean . . . .Serg was hoping to do the same thing yesterday.

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

And that vig was suspected to be a maybe!SK, and decided to shoot a guy who was townread instead of the guy who quickhammered, so yeah.

Plenty of people have done idiotic things this game, so wave not claiming yesterday doesn't raise that many red-flags for me right now tbh.

The player that comes off as less competent than wavemode came to their senses sooner than wavemode. That doesn't tell you something?

Wave openly admitted that scum needed to kill chip, and is still arguing that scum would have killed him instead. You're arguing things for wave that he didn't believe in.

We had, in order, the guy who got himself lynched for not reading the game, the guy who quickhammered without waiting for a claim (albeit he was scum), the vig that decided to shoot a dude who was widely townread instead of the dude who quickhammered after we knew that there was a decent chance that there might be an SK, two people who started probable MYLO by voting, a guy who was trying to build wagons in MYLO (albeit he had a probable guilty, but he didn't explain that bit to anyone until later), and a guy who lied through mass-claim.

The fact that someone else lied through mass claim honestly doesn't surprise me. Like my standards aren't very high right now.

Although the one thing I don't get from Wave is why he assumed they'd kill him and not Serg last night if he had claimed yesterday.

[skitter30]

I think I believe wave's claim, on the premise that I'm not entirely sure what it buys him as scum.

The game if Seph is town?

Tbh I'm slightly confused why we didn't go through this song-and-dance yesterday with Serg. Like why weren't people worrying about him lying about the guilty in order to win the game?

(This was a thing I was worried about, but I decided it was rather unlikely and I didn't see the point of bringing it up if no one else did. I was actually still considering this possibility up to and until Wave claimed, but now I'm more worried about Wave doing it.)

I can put effort into casing Flub today as well.

I'd like this please.

[skitter30]

Flubber I actually don't think it's productive for me to have this discussion with you because you don't seem to understand the value of a guilty. You don't understand that scum will kill people who are on the verge of getting a guilty on them, and that town will do things that are out of the ordinary if they feel it will keep them alive and net them a guilty. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're high, who knows at this point. But the more you argue from this bizarre perspective that I should have claimed yesterday, or that the scumteam maybe wouldn't have wanted to kill me, or any of these other nonsensical arguments you keep trying to make, the more you're convincing me that this is actually just a fruitless discussion. You've made up your mind and, frankly, I can live with that at this stage.

Although the one thing I don't get from Wave is why he assumed they'd kill him and not Serg last night if he had claimed yesterday.

Neither of you can get straight-up guilties.

[skitter30]

What do you mean, that's what I have now since seph is lying about his role

Right, but neither you nor Serg could have known that you'd get a guilty before you investigated people. You didn't know *yesterday* that Seph was lying, and since you claimed VT, you were never dying last night.

I'm not sure why you thought they'd kill *you* instead of Serg or Chip last night if you had claimed. Serg could get the same level of guilty. You'd get a guilty if someone lied about being a VT and was actually a scum PR, and Serg would get a guilty if they lied about being a VT and was actually a goon. Like you posed the same level of threat to them as Serg did if there's a scum!PR, less if there wasn't.

I don't understand why you're fence sitting on such a blatant lie in this game.

Do you think wave has the win rates in his sig from making really bad plays?

I dunno. I've only played with him the once and he was town and I was scum. I can't cite general experience of him.

If the question is between me and chip, it's obvious I'm the kill there. If the question is between me and serg, my apprehension was simply because I really didn't know he was town. That's why we spent so much time setting up a vig strategy

I don't know why you think you'd be the kill here between you and chip tbh. Chip can kill them. You can guilty them but you have to convince us you have a guilty.

Do you now think Serg is town? And if so, why?

I always shorten deadlines as the days go on - seven days for Day 4 is reasonable to me. Willing to extend it by 3 days, but then it's Christmas! Let me know

I'd like an extension just cuz seven days is not a lot of time, but I also don't celebrate Christmas, so I'm happy to defer to all the players and mod who would actually be impacted by this.

[skitter30]

At the time I claimed VT, I was hard scumreading Serg and he had not yet claimed.

Is it that hard to see? Okay, maybe you as scum would see chip as more of a threat but that's not how I see things at all. If I were scum claiming VT I'd want to avoid someone finding out I'm lying. One one hand you have the off possibility that chip shoots, and shoots correctly, and on the other hand you have the pretty much certainty that wavemode will check the claim of his biggest scumread. In my mind that's a clear situation where you kill wavemode, and it's exactly what I was trying to avoid. Though maybe we just agree to disagree on this point.

No, I was just looking at it from my POV: Serg is the investigative, and you are claiming to be a second investigative, so after Serg claimed, I didn't see why you would automatically be the highest priority night kill.

But then I realized you're claiming to have gone through the massclaim yesterday from the POV that you

were the only (significant) investigative

, in which case from your POV, you would be the highest priority night kill. And I think I can buy that because that's what I thought about Serg yesterday.

I'm trying to find the posts that made me think you were the investigative so that I can see if this matches the way you were behaving day 3, but I can't pin it to specific posts :/ I think it was a subconscious thing.

Was there another reason why you wanted massclaim yesterday?

And then we have RB, Backup RB and FBI. And vig I suppose, if anyone believes that

Either way town PR's seem somewhat sparse if TIAM is fakeclaiming...

What was this?

I also want to talk a bit more about your implosion progression, specifically:

a) why did you decide to check him night 1?

b) why did a 'vanilla' result make you back off him day 2?

c) in relation to the following posts, specifically the fact that implosion became a major contender for scum at the very end of day 3?

Spoiler:

Serg is scum. Seph is scum.

So at this point, at daystart of day3, you were positing Serg/Seph.

I've got a nagging suspicion we're looking at a serg/seph/chip team

Here, serg/seph/chip, which is consistent with the above.

Notwithstanding Chip's alignment, we likely have to lynch scum today, not SK

I'd be willing to vote Serg or Seph

If we lynch correct and the game is still on, Chip should shoot TwoInAMillion tonight

Chip gets removed since he's not groupscum, and you're still on serg/seph.

seph imp

And now you think the team is seph/imp.

--------
@seph:

So these are some things that I'm having some trouble with:

a) The main sticking point is the way you voted Two straight off the bat yesterday. I know we talked about it a lot, but I dunno, the way you voted in probable MYLO still just doesn't sit well with me.

I felt that the implication was that I was just following you around which I don't think was the case at any point in the game.

Like this was not my intent to imply because I have a lot of respect for your game. Regardless of your alignment, I think you played really, really well, so I want to apologize if you thought that's what I was implying.

And I dunno. That vote just doesn't square with the rest of your game, which is just a lot more rational and thought-out and just full of good sense. It made sense from the perspective of trying to end the game in MYLO with a town!two mislynch. We know we don't live in that universe anymore. The vote *also* makes sense from the perspective of you trying to bus a partner for towncred and forgetting that we need to be worried about MYLO if you and he are both scum. Like you'd fundamentally know that we weren't in MYLO in that scenario, so it makes sense to me that scum!you might overlook the fact that you needed to pretend about MYLO there if you were more focused on making sure you executed a good bus after a partner did something kinda stupid.

Like I can see other people doing that and I wouldn't be surprised, but you seem a lot more cautious and rational so that vote just feels really wrong in that context coming from town!you there.

Can you also talk about how Two went from scummy throughout day1 to nulltown at the start of day2?

b)

So so so happy with my vote.

This was wrt to your Lalendra vote day2, and it kinda bothered me at the time, but day 2 got cut short and day 3 got subsumed by other topics of discussion.

I dunno if I can articulate why I didn't like this, but I'll try.

The general argument against her day2 was that she completely forget about you in her readslist after she had a whole argument with you about associatives day 1, prompting declare you her biggest scumread; it didn't look natural for a townplayer to forget about their biggest scumread.

But then she started arguing *your* side of the argument, prompting the above quote.

The thing that felt kinda off about it is that it feels more *personal* than scumhunt-y. Like you were feeling vindicated by the fact that she was making an objectively silly argument given her day1 stance. Like the connotation I got from that quote there was more like you were happy you had won this argument, and not per se that you thought you had found scum.

I hope that made sense? I can try that again if it didn't.

c) Also post 1251 feels off to me. (I know I'm saying things are off. I can't always articulate why I don't like things, sorry :/ I'm trying though).

Like wave accuses you of lying about your role. Instead of accusing him back or confronting him, that whole post was addressed to *me*. Like I know I'm the person who's going to decide here, but I dunno. Like if you're town and thought Wave was lying like I'd have expected you to accuse him of being lying scum and vote him or something.

Like your whole reaction seemed kinda tame wrt to Wave if you're town here, since from town!seph's POV, there's a dude who's lying about your role in MYLO and is trying to get you lynched. And you respond by saying 'hey no, skitter, his claim is sketchy and this is why you should believe me'.

Like you voted him and 'threw down the gauntlet' *after* your appeal to me ,and I dunno. I guess I'd expect a more visceral, knee-jerk reaction of 'you're lying' if you're town here.

[skitter30]

Serg, your opinion would be kinda nice here

@

nexus

: I'd like an extension please!

Going to go through all that now

[skitter30]

3) I didn't realize that we were potentially in MYLO when I made my vote, and I was tunneling on TIAMs play and hammer at the end of the day and his subsequent claim which was full of holes. Maybe I should have admitted I didn't realize the situation but I stand by my belief that a quicklynch was pretty unlikely with TIAM as the target (since he was one of the lolvoters you mentioned). It was easier to state that genuine opinion then admit that I didn't think about the possibility initially.

OK, so you're saying that you *hadn't* realized we were in MYLO at that point?

Thanks. I guess I've got some post traumatic stress from other games on this front.

Ye, I def think you played an awesome game here, no matter your alignment, and would def be interested in playing with you again!

But I kinda have to do my due diligence here and try to figure out if you're trying to manipulate me lol

I mean, those are valid ways of viewing the vote from your perspective. Voting without properly ascertaining the situation was a bad move objectively regardless of my alignment. I guess the question is whether you believe that I didn't realize we might be in MYLO or that I "didn't realize" (gratuitous air quotes) that we were in MYLO. If it means anything to you, I will BS my way out of mistakes as either alignment because my playstyle means that most players read my mistakes as scumtells. Players with a less analytical/rational playstyle might be given the benefit of the doubt, but I usually am not.

Right, so this is the tricky bit, trying to figure out if you didn't realize, or if you 'didn't realize'.

Two def got bussed by at least one partner, if not both - I think the only holdout was wave and me-ish. And tbh .... I kinda agree with him that it would be kinda akward for a partner to go out on a limb for TIAM there instead of just committing to a bus.

Like ... scum knows TIAM is scum. Scum knows he's almost for sure getting lynched. Scum knows that they won't look that good after he flips goon. Does scum actually try to defend him - TIAM specifically
- there? When he's just a goon and isn't like the best scum on the team? Or just go all in on a bus for the towncred?

LIke why would scum go through the effort of trying to defend him there? If he ended up getting lynched, they'd be tied inextricably to him. (Btw, whoever scum is, I think you did a really good job distancing; I tend to scumhunt a lot through associatives and they've been practically worthless this game between the four of you lol)

And I totally feel you on the rational thing. You're right. I am holding you to a higher standard cuz, well from what I've seen this game, I think you're a pretty good player.

Like that disastrous 1946 I keep on mentioning - like I did something completely idiotic as scum, and one dude basically said to me that he thought I was too smart of a player to do something that stupid as town. And so he just couldn't see me as town. And he was right. And that's kinda what this is reminding of tbh (although this isn't nearly as stupid as what I did that game lol; turns out putting a guy at L-1 on page 7 is like not a good idea, especially when he claims cop immediately thereafter )

The post was a response to the claim et all. The top portion is directed at everyone, and then i transition into speaking directly to you. I transition directly to speaking to you because my view here is that wavemode is scum, you are confirmed town, and you have just made points about the possibility of me being TIAMs partner (points which I viewed as unfair, or as misreps, though it seems now the misinterpretation was on my end). There's no point in getting angry with wavemode for making his play, and my denial implicitly indicates that I view him as scum (I think explicitly also); its much more important to convince the conftown that I'm town then make some OMGUS crusade against wavemode. You seem to mention my playstyle as cautious and rational so let me ask you this...what would the cautious and rational player do in this situation? Flame at the accuser, or appeal to the people who will decide how the game will proceed?

I mean, from your POV he should be confscum for doing this ... it isn't exactly an OMGUS situation - or at least, what I'd apply that term to. (Like I'd call OMGUS to be like mid-day 2 I call you scum and you retaliate by scumreading me). I'd call this more of a 1v1 since the two of you are in a direct cc here. Like that's what I was kinda missing from that post .... yes you mention that he's scum, but he should literally be confscum from your POV here and you just seem to lacking that conviction I guess.

My priority was not laying down a vote, its defending myself and arguing wave!scum which is what I've been doing. Me voting Wave doesn't really accomplish anything if everyone believes his claim.

Like this is true .... but from your POV he's confscum so we need to lynch him to win. Like you voting wave and convincing us is kinda important for that to happen. Yes defending yourself is important, but I guess what I'm saying is that from your POV, you have confscum, and you seem less interested in pursuing that than making sure you don't get lynched.

Like if you contrast your behavior with Serg (had a guilty on Two) or wave (claims to have an effective guilty on you), both of them approached it from the angle of 'hey I found confscum and we need to lynch them'. You're approaching it more from 'hey this is why we shouldn't lynch me and also hey look at conf!scum wave'. Like it's more survivalistic and less 'let's lynch the confscum', which I tend to think is more likely to come from scum. Like you're focused on making sure *you* aren't the lynch today instead of lynching scum. Like I get that if you're town we lose .... but we also lose if we don't lynch confscum wave today.

Yay I figured out what was bothering me and how to articulate it lol. Yeah the above is what I was trying to get at before. It's not that I expect you to flame at wave so much as that I that imagine that a townplayer here would be trying to get the confscum lynched instead of focusing on trying to defend themselves.

[skitter30]

I'm trying to find the posts that made me think you were the investigative so that I can see if this matches the way you were behaving day 3, but I can't pin it to specific posts :/ I think it was a subconscious thing.

This is textbook confirmation bias.

The only thing wave has used to try and prove his claim is a really bad crumb. That's extremely telling.

Remember jjh's recent game? That's what playing to a power role looks like. Hinting that the neighborizor needed to be offed regardless of alignment played to my role. Immediately trusting the D1 pr claim because of how it played to my role. Wave has done nothing close to that, and if he had, he would have noted it.

I mean, post mass-claim and pre Serg's claim, I def was thinking that there had to another investigative. I thought it was wave, with an off-chance of it being Seph actually. I never imagined it was Serg tbh.

I never put it in the thread though, so it's not like I set up wave to claim it.

But that's why it's semi-believable to me, cuz I was half thinking that already; I'm semi-decent at PR hunting tbh.

But yeah I know what you mean. That's why I believed you there, over Dunk even though I thought Dunk was a bad target, cuz you were playing pretty much textbook how I thought that PR would play. In fact, I literally said after you claimed that I was getting those vibes mid-day 1 and was thinking about pushing you for not really doing much that first day, but decided not to because I was aware it might be because you were a PR trying to stay under the radar.

So that's why I'm having trouble here, because from my POV, it's a pretty similar scenario. I thought someone might claim PR before they did, didn't set it up for them in thread, and they did. And I can understand his POV why he didn't claim yesterday.

Difference between you in 1954 and wave here is that I was able to point to exact posts and general behavior from you that made me think that. Going back, I don't know where I got those vibes from wave.

And I just checked 1931 again; he lied his way through mass-claim there too. He claimed to be a VT as even-night tracker during the PR-clusterfuck (but got himself night-killed before he had to come clean about lying) .... so there is def precedent for this.

[skitter30]

Yeah I was going to ask if you recalled crumbing there but I wasn't sure if you'd remember. I def don't have patience tonight to reread that game and see if your pre-mass-claim behavior matched how you played here; maybe I will if I'm really bored later this week or something lol.

[skitter30]

Uh, wave, that post is kinda ick.

1. I don't think a no-lynch is ever optimal here, as it just kicks the problem down the road to tomorrow. You're assuming me/implosion gets killed .... implosion literally never gets killed here. If he's scum, duh. If he's town, he's the last available mislynch scum have to win. And you're banking the game on an investigation Serg likely never gets the results for cuz he's the optimal kill here in order to prevent literally the scenario you described. You said you think Serg is town here after yesterday, and you didn't claim yesterday since you thought you were the investigative and a bigger threat than Chip and thought you would be dead if you claimed ... Why aren't you applying that logic to Serg here?

2. Why are you assuming that neither me nor Serg will change our minds here? Like why are you pushing this when the guy who's actually conftown just showed up and said he wants to lynch you? Instead of giving me the opportunity to talk to him about it or like actually asking him why he thinks that? Like why are you assuming we won't find a compromise when we have several days given the probable deadline extension?

3. You're also banking the game on Seph being a scum!PR that isn't a doc .... if he's a doc, Serg gets a gunsmith clear and you're telling us to lynch you anyways.

Like what you're suggesting is a good idea only in a very narrow set of circumstances, most of which you can't control if you're town.

[skitter30]

Also Serg, you wanna tell me why wave?

[skitter30]

Well then that's a 3/3 split, so no lynch

To me this sounds like you're resigned to a no-lynch, and the rest of the post sounds like once you've decided we're deadlocked and that we're going to no-lynch anyways,we might as well figure out how to optimize tonight/tomorrow.

I don't get why you'd be thinking about a no-lynch right now at all.

Forgive me for planning ahead but Serg hasn't been super checked into the game because of what time of year it is so I felt it needed to be said now while he's online.

He hasn't .... but he's been paying enough attention to speak up when it matters and to ask clarification when he isn't sure about something. Even his last post demonstrates that he's reading through.

I specifically don't want a no-lynch scenario, and I especially don't want a no-lynch scenario where we go into tomorrow and Serg is alive but he checked someone other than Seph.

Like do you really think I'm letting the day end with a no-lynch, or that I wouldn't make sure to discuss the lynch and optimal night actions with him? After I told Chip like four billion times yesterday *exactly* what he was supposed to do depending on the flip?

And tbh, checking implosion would not exactly the worst things on the planet either. Like with your claimed check on him, serg could clear him as a VT or get a guilty on a goon.

I understand your point about the night kills but I've been in these exact scenarios and it always goes poorly when town make assumptions on who the scumteam is going to kill. In fact sometimes a PR assumes they will get killed and submits no action.

Yeah ... my whole point is that we shouldn't make assumptions on who the scumteam is going to kill. You're telling me that you agree with me that town shouldn't make assumptions about the kill, but your post hinges on the assumption that they won't kill Serg. I don't understand why you'd assume that, especially given that your reason for lying through massclaim is that you thought you'd be the kill if you claimed investigative - why wouldn't Serg be the kill here if he's the proven investigative, one who happens to not be embroiled in a 1v1?

Like I'm not saying that Serg is for sure going to die tonight if we lynch correctly today, but there's a better than decent chance that it's going to be him. To resign yourself to a no-lynch and bank the game on him not dying tonight and Seph being a not-doc-scum-PR seems irresponsible.

LIke are you trying to argue that they might not kill him because they think he wouldn't submit an action or something? I don't get it. And scum killing town!imposion here is about as likely as me getting lynched today. Like it's just not happening. I don't get why you're turning this into a convo about town making assumptions about the nk.

That whole last post belies a scummy sort of impatience that I don't like much at all.

[skitter30]

I guess you're taking when I say "no lynch" to mean "today will end in a no lynch" (if that's what I had said I'd agree with you. It makes no sense for me to say something like that) But really it just meant "no lynch right now."

It read to me like you were suggesting that a no-lynch today was likely. Like I'm trying to read it the way you framed it here, but that post really sounds to me like you thought we were deadlocked and that a no-lynch was happening and that we might as well figure out night-actions.

(I'd ask everyone else what they think about it, but I'm pretty sure everyone's just going to tell me what they think I want to hear, so yeah.)

And even if you're saying that it meant 'no lynch right now', there wasn't going to be a lynch then anyways, regardless of what Serg said then and no matter whose side he's on, so I don't know why you felt the need to bring that up; I don't think anyone was thinking that there was going to be a lynch just then.

And even if we lynch correctly today and the game doesn't end, the instructions that you gave Serg aren't necessarily optimal here and I don't know if I per se agree with them. Like I dislike you casting them as 'Serg needs to check Seph' when from your POV, Serg might be dying and Seph could well be a scum!doc. Then even if Serg does somehow survive, checking Seph would clear him, and you told us to lynch you if Seph gets cleared.

You're saying that Serg *needs* to check Seph, like that's his optimal night action, but scum!doc!Seph should be a valid scenario from your POV, and doing that would lose the game cuz you told us to lynch you if Serg clears him. Like I'm not sure why you've just discounted that possibility.

Even beyond the no-lynch thing, that post was really bad because the instructions you gave Serg just don't make much sense from your POV :/

----

My two cents on this topic is that if I were scum, fully aware that we are in MYLO, and fully aware that TIAM is scum likely to die, what benefit do I gain from 'not realizing' its MYLO and coming out swinging on the bus? It would be a much more effective play to acknowledge that we may be in MYLO and make the same post about TIAM without voting, gaining some towncred on the way. Its WIFOM but I mean, it just doesn't give scum much benefit to purposefully not acknowledge the game state here.

I mean, my point is that you could have not realized as either alignment, but that scum!you would inherently be less likely to be worried about this since you'd know we weren't about to lynch town.

I feel like I've gotten most of what I want from this discussion though, so thanks for clarifying your thought process.
----

Right now I'm leaning more towards believing Seph, as a confluence of several factors:

a) I can't figure out why I thought wave might claim PR and after going through wave's ISO, I can't really find posts that substantiate the notion that he was playing from that mindset all game, only from post mass-claim; usually I can point to specific posts/attitudes that make sense coming from a PR mindset and I just can't find what made me think that here.

b) That post above is incredibly gross and I really hate it.

c) I was townreading Seph through most of day1-2 and after going through his ISO I still think it's mostly townie. Like most of the above discussion is nit-picky, and I can understand all of it coming from a town mindset. Like the worst thing I really see from him is starting off probable MYLO voting, and a quickvote wasn't especially likely there given that we'd only have a quicklynch if a non-existent SK voted with a three-man scumteam.

d) The only person I know is town is tending towards believing Seph (Serg, still want you to elaborate though).

------

@Wave, I did just go through your 1931 ISO again to see how you played town even-night tracker.

(I can't find any *recent* games of Seph tbh to look at, even under the alt; meta from five months ago (and from games that I was in) is more valuable to me than meta from five years ago)

This is kinda interesting in light of the above post. so's this one, etc..

And this in light of you pushing mass-claim yesterday.

[skitter30]

I'm actually not sure what you mean by this. I'm pretty sure with support from Serg we would have then begun lynching Sephiroth. I suppose it's true that there would have been talk of night actions (well, not really. there'd only be one person left for serg to check at that point, and that's imp) and other theories, but bottom line is we would have started wrapping up the day.

OK, fair. If Serg had wanted to lynch Seph that would have been it. But he wants to lynch you (although I'm no longer certain he's actually caught up ...), so it was a 3-3 tie as you pointed out.

Is the following what you meant?

'well then that's a 3-3 split, so there won't be a lynch right now'

I mean, you're allowed to disagree; nobody says you aren't. But as for me, I absolutely do consider it the best course of action so yes, I framed it that way on purpose. Serg scumreading me and checking implosion and being alive tomorrow still results in me getting lynched, by serg and seph and flubber, and us losing. A no-lynch here is super un-ideal, but at least if he checks Seph then I've got a shot, since in the grand scheme of things Seph *most likely* isn't scum doc. I think my point of view there is pretty straightforward. I'm confused as to why you consider it "really bad."

I hadn't actually thought through all the night-action choices, but here goes:

Spoiler:

-Serg checks Seph. Serg dies, result is irrelevant

-Serg checks Seph. I die (I'm pretty sure I'm the only other night-kill that makes sense after a no-lynch here). Seph doesn't have a gun (scum!doc or VT). Wave gets lynched. Game ends if Seph is VT, game continues if he's scum!doc.

-Serg checks Seph. I die. Seph has a gun. Seph is lynched. Game continues.

-Serg checks Imp. Serg dies, result is irrelevant.

- Serg checks Imp. I die. Imp has a gun. He gets lynched. Game continues.

- Serg checks Imp. I die. Imp does not have gun. Coupled with your clear, he's conf VT. Seph and Flubber vote Wave. Wave and Imp vote Seph. Down to Serg.

(Again, finally figured out what caused that initial gut reaction, took me a while):

Like I'm saying that this whole convo is kinda silly because the night-action you're proposing only makes sense if we no-lynch, which is ridiculously sub-optimal here. If we lynch wrong, the game ends, so it doesn't matter. If we lynch scum!Seph, Wave is confVC, so Serg is going to check Implosion because he already checked me and Flubber. If we lynch scum!wave, Seph is town, so Serg is going to check Implosion because he already checked me and Flubber (although to be fair I suppose this could be some sort of elaborate scum theatre between you and Seph, but meh, not worrying about that right now, and this wasn't the scenario you were proposing - or are ever going to propose - anyways).

Like the option of checking Seph is only vaguely relevant if we no-lynch. If we lynch correctly, Implosion gets checked here like always I think because the townie in {wave/seph} is pseudo-cleared for winning the 1v1. And that's why I read your post the way I did, because the only universe where checking Seph even makes sense is if we no-lynch.

Your whole post kinda fundamentally hinges on the possibility of a no-lynch because I don't think Seph ever gets checked if we lynch correctly, and if we lynch wrong, the game ends anyways.

And that's what I don't get it. No-lynching makes no sense here because we need to just resolve this today, and your post is implicitly trying to resolve the consequences of a no-lynch. Like that post just doesn't make sense in a universe where we lynch correctly.

[skitter30]

my god a lot of catching up to do D:

Let me know when you've caught up and can talk!

[skitter30]

Thank you for the extension!

[skitter30]

K, I'll drop the no-lynch thing.

Flubber, what do you think of Implosion's case on you?

[skitter30]

Well then that's a 3/3 split, so no lynch

It's reasonably likely they kill implosion or skitter for being on my side so Serg you need to gunsmith Seph tonight. Tomorrow when you find he has a gun you'll see things my way. Alternatively, if you find he doesn't have a gun, feel free to lynch me on the spot

This post. I don't like it.

[skitter30]

Yeah it's really close between the two of them.

Rambling thoughts:

I'm not sure why he tells you to check him. Like what *did* he gain out of it? Cuz we'd have lynched him if he claimed odd-night VC after you returned 'had a gun'.

I'm actually starting to think that he made that fake-claim to clear himself on the off chance you did check him - impossible to tell if he's actually a VC or a goon.

With town!wave, we have vig/roleblocker/FBI agen(named townie)/gunsmith/VC. I dunno, seems like a lot of power to me.

I like Seph's tone and I really liked him day1-2 and I dunno, I'm better with townreads than scumreads. He was incredibly town early game to me and just seemed really genuine.

I still don't like Wave's townread of wossi tbh.

I have considered the possibility of some elaborate scum theatre and *they're* both scum tbh. Before we end the day we need to decide if you check the person we don't lynch or if you check Implosion.

I still think Flubber is town tbh, but I do want him to respond to Implosion. He could be a scum doc though and we wouldn't be able to tell. But I'm still townreading him.

Implosion I'm still kinda meh on.

And yeah I'm always town here lol, and you know that. That's why your scumread of me was fake.

[skitter30]

Yeah I think I've come around to wave tbh.

What do you think? If wave flips scum do you check Seph or Implosion?

You and me are pretty much the only two kills here. You'll die if they think you can get an incriminating result.

[skitter30]

Ye. Unless they think you can't get an incriminating result; ie one that will affect the lynch tomorrow. Then I think they kill me and it's you/flubber/seph/implosion. I have more ... presence than you do.

I just read Seph's ISO back-to-front. I'm like 88/12 on him being town right now. If he isn't, he played ridiculously well as scum and honestly deserves to win. He's town.

I still don't like Wave's tr of Wossi.

I don't like Wave's not taking a side in the Mulch thing.

VOTE: Lalendra

(pops in to naked vote the L-2 vote, and appears to be aware that he was casting that vote, and literally hadn't mentioned her at all day2, and hasn't implied a read on her since like early-mid day1)

I don't see how waves naked vote makes any sense, especially given the fact that they had a chance to unvote AFTER the -1 and AFTER Wicked noted it was L-1. Why not unvote, or ask for a claim? Why are you sitting there saying that you think TIAM is scummy and putting a player at -1 with no stated reasoning? Like wave, you literally saw wicked vote for tiam with a post full of reasoning, how did you not move your vote there or at least unvote when it became clear there was a chance of a competing wagon?

ick

(aside: if it's implosion/wave/two, the whole scumteam was on the lalendra lynch which is kinda weird tbh).

Does defend Two yesterday.

Lied through mass-claim, has little to substantiate his claim, and asked the gunsmith to check him before he claimed ...

Notwithstanding Chip's alignment, we likely have to lynch scum today, not SK

I'd be willing to vote Serg or Seph

If we lynch correct and the game is still on, Chip should shoot TwoInAMillion tonight

This post is quite bad from the perspective that he's pushing a lynch in Serg/Seph but telling Chip to shoot Two and not lynch him instead. Especially if a scum doc is a thing ....

Oh fuck I just put it all together. We're lynching Wave. There's a scum doc.

Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.

Then you're naive about good vig play. It's not about my personal feelings, it's about who most people want dead. Get rid of them at night so we don't have to debate about it

I'm not scum, so no.

I have a provable power so lynching me is dumb.

These last three posts explain why Two had the kinda random fake-claim of roleblocker; it had been low-key niggling at me that a) backup-roleblocker doesn't seem necessarily proveable and b) backup-roleblocker is a really random thing to claim if you're trying to claim your way out of a lynch.

I think the plan was to lynch outside of Two and have the vig/SK shoot at Two and have the scum doc heal him, but claim today that he had blocked Chip and proven his role and survived.

This also explains why scum!wave doesn't care about tying himself to Two here - if he could get Seph/Serg lynched yesterday, Two wouldn't be dead cuz he'd be healed.

Actually, I think they just win overnight because we mislynched and they knew where the vig shot would go so they could heal it. Mislynch yesterday is 4-3, and a kill overnight with the vig shot healed means we're 3-3 today and they win.

Holy shit that's a good plan for whoever came up with it, it explains like everything.

Well, except the VC stuff.

[skitter30]

Ye we're lynching wave.

[skitter30]

Flubber isn't scum with wave based on today's interactions. There's literally no reason for scum!flubber and scum!wave to have that argument in that gamestate- namely with me/implosion/wave wanting to vote Seph, there's no reason for Flubber to start a whole thing there. He could just side with me and town!implosion and win the game by voting Seph.

So two/wave/implosion.

[skitter30]

Now that I'm a laptop:

(note to self: if two = scum roleblocker implosion's post at the top of this page is super sketchy

refers to

Could still be scum doctor, but doctor + roleblocker would be quite a lot of power for scum to have here,

This line, in conjunction with the fact that implosion never really talks about the possibility of two fake-claiming, kinda implies that he *knows* that Two isn't fake-claiming (at least the roleblocker bit). I dunno if I'm wording this right to get my point across, but he just kinda takes it as a given that scum!Two isn't lying about his role. Like he starts off with the assumption that scum!roleblocker is a thing but doesn't consider the possibility that two may be lying, and then draws the conclusion that scum!doctor is probably too much if scum also have a roleblocker,

but doesn't consider the case where scum doesn't have a roleblocker

. It sounds like he kinda knows that Two isn't lying about his role.

I dunno, I hope that made some semblance of sense.

Explains this too, from a slightly different POV.

Namely, it's not that he knows that Two isn't lying about his role. It's that he knows Two *is*.

Implosion's betting the game on Two fake-claiming RB.

[skitter30]

Sorry, I'm spamming, but the game finally makes sense now.

[skitter30]

Fridays are kinda bad for me; I dunno if I'll have time to respond to everything today. If I don't, it'll def be tom night.

Wave, can you just address the following points for me while I'm gone:

1. If you're an investigative role, and don't know how to read TIAM (158), and would always be willing to policy him (996) .... why didn't you just check him n1? In this context, you're kinda going to have to justify checking implosion over TIAM here. Just calling implosion one of your hunch scumreads (1315) and checking him doesn't really square with your feelings for TIAM tbh.

Doing so could have forestalled this whole thing when he claimed rb.

(Like at least Chip had a reason for vigging Dany, even though it was kinda stupid, but his reason tracked with his claim).

Now that I think about it, there was *a lot* of discussion as to whether or not Two was lying. If you're an odd-night vc, couldn't you have just checked him last night to see if he was lying?

Like you were pushing a lynch on Serg/Seph, but the reason you gave is not so that you could check Two last night (like I don't remember this point coming up anywhere), but so that you would have a night to live so that you could verify

seph's VT claim

, and live to substantiate implosion's.

From the POV of a VC, like wouldn't you want to check the dude who you want to policy-lynch anyways, who claimed a kinda weird role under incriminating circumstances? Wouldn't Two have been the perfect target last night? And instead you wanted to check Seph? Like all the reasons you gave for the massclaim and lying through it is so that you could make sure Implosion and Seph weren't lying. You never mentioned wanting to make sure you and Two would live to today so that you could check him.

And telling someone to vig Two from the POV of a vanilla cop who can just check if he's lying is honestly kinda bizarre. (although tbf I can see why this point in particular might come from a town mindset in these circumstances)

2. Can you clarify the Lalendra vote, especially wrt to the points I raised in the post I made last night? And why you were null on Mulch.

Honestly #1 is kinda the sticking point. Like even disregarding everything I said last night if you think I'm being conspiracy-theory-level crazy, your play day3 just doesn't make much sense from the POV of a town vanilla cop.

[skitter30]

So yeah, forgive me if I'm agitated that this is falling apart like this. I don't mind losing as town, it's a learning experience. But like this? When Seph has been acting scummy for two days? When I have a clear guilty I've been angling for since yesterday? When literally every singe thing I've done in this game is 100% consistent with how I play as town, and 100000% INconsistent with how I EVER play as scum? Come ON people, open your eyes!

Can you give me the tldr version of why you think Seph is scum again?

[skitter30]

OK, I did my homework and skimmed through your ISOs in all the games you mentioned, and read the scum PT of 1950. I didn't find it that enlightening tbh.

[skitter30]

This point's also perplexing to me because, again, I'm no psychic; so help me out if I'm missing something here. I agree that a TIAM check would have proved his claim wrong since he'd have come back Vanilla, but how could I have known that? Most of our talk was around the possibility that TIAM was a scum roleblocker - that's still Not Vanilla. So in my mind, my role wasn't really going to help us resolve the 1v1. In fact, by this point I was coming around to the idea of implosion being Mafia Goon, so I really didn't even consider the possibility that, even if TIAM was scum, he'd be a Goon whose claim I could prove wrong with my ability. I was pretty convinced he was going to flip roleblocker, which is why when you asked me yesterday who the other two scum were, I said seph/imp. At that time, I mentally had the scumteam as TIAM roleblocker (or, possibly Serg as something else), imp goon, and then I was going to check Seph and prove his VT claim to be false. And on the off chance Seph had come back Vanilla, I was still going to present that and say that imp and Seph are not both scum, since the scumteam probably don't have two goons.

Sure but if he's lying about his role, then he dies

I mean .... I can point to posts that show you've considered the possibility that he was lying about his role.

I don't think this point is unuseful or perplexing. It's kinda important. If you're an odd-night vanilla cop, and there's a dude who quickhammered the day before that you're always sketchy of anyways who you think is a LYLO liability, and he claimed backup roleblocker in sketchy circumstances, I would think that the natural thought process is that you'd want to live through the night so you could check him. Instead you wanted to check

Seph

.

Like I'm having a *really* hard time seeing why a VC who acknowledged that Two may be lying about being a backup rb didn't consider checking him that night to, you know, check if he was lying about being a backup rb, but instead decided to lie through massclaim in order to check someone else altogether.

Regarding your Seph case, if I just remove all the stuff about the guilty, which is only fact from your POV, I'm left with:

I didn't even think he was scummy until day 3. I considered his rush to throw a vote onto TIAM and lack of awareness of our likely mylo situation to be scumtells, and I said as much then. Obviously I was off-base in thinking the target of his push was town. But it still struck me as off (and now that he's confscum to me I see that it was because he was bussing, so he didn't care how it would look). With Serg and TIAM in a 1v1, Chip obviously not mafia, and Skitter/Flubber as my main townreads, I considered it obvious that the remaining scumteam would be implosion/seph.

Your main reason for scumreading him is the fact that he didn't he didn't act with enough caution in probable MYLO, coupled with PoE (aside, I'm not sure where you developed such a strong townread on Flubber that you're using it to PoE the game). Your other main reason - making an endgame push on lynchbait - is not relevant given that TIAM actually flipped scum. I dunno. This was also the best I could come up with as a case for scum!seph too, and I just don't think it's that strong.

I'd been townreading him day1-2, and the worst I could come up with is quickvoting in maybe MYLO and making an endgame push on lynchbait, but the guy ended up being scum anyways. Reading his ISO back-to-front now, it just kinda screams town at me.

I was never townreading wave. I don't understand how he played day3 from the perspective of his claimed role. Going through his ISO I see a lot of things I don't or didn't like at the time.

I think I'm voting for wave. Even if the vig/doc stuff is me seeing things that aren't there, I don't think wave's day3 play makes sense from the perspective of his claimed role.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry to wave for mislynching you and to town for losing the game.

If I'm right, wave, you played incredibly this game.

I'll wait for Serg though if he's going to be around tomorrow.

[skitter30]

Just to really drive this home and try to understand where the difficulty is coming from, since this seems to be the sticking point, I ask again - what actual evidence did I have yesterday that TIAM was a goon? I completely understand that we were trying to determine whether he was lying about his claim, but still, again - how could I have known then that TIAM would not be a scum power role and investigate Not Vanilla, thus solving nothing?

Well, that's not quite my problem; no, I'm clearly not expecting you to be psychic and take night actions that only seem optimal in hindsight. What I dislike is that I'm trying really hard to see any indication that you've been playing from a VC-mindset pre-massclaim, and I'm having trouble seeing it. Like as far as I can tell, a perfectly valid explanation for your behavior is that post mass-claim, you realized that no one claimed investigative, so you might as well gambit. I don't really see *anything* from before mass-claim that would substantiate your claim. When I do go back and look at day3 and how you played, I *do* see a lot of posts that I don't quite see coming from a VC. Like, for example, the fact that you acknowledged he may be lying about his role but you wanted to lynch him anyways; I kinda see TIAM as being the obvious target for a VC cop in that situation, and the fact that you never thought to check him is still kinda bizarre to me. Like, I get that you thought he may be *some other* scum PR, but I dunno; it's weird to me that you didn't want to check him.

But your reads do seem to track throughout the day.

Aside, what do you think about the fact that implosion is taking your side and defending you in all this?

And after skimming your ISOs, this was actually the most interesting and relevant post I found, from Large 207:

We lynch wrong and I shoot wrong, and there are 2 scum left? We could be in lylo tomorrow. Is that the point at which you want people to start going "oh hey by the way guys I'm a cop and I got a guilty last night DDD"

No, we're getting this shit out in the open right now. Let scum take their pick of who they feel is most important to shoot. Most of us will still live to fight on

Why didn't this mindset apply to this game?

But yeah, I did look at all your scumgames, and you did your best to distance yourself from partners in trouble, and really never went out on a limb for them in a way that could incriminate you, so this doesn't really match your meta, like at all. And I'm not sure why you would decide to make an anti-meta gambit on Two of all people, who didn't even flip PR, but goon.

What do you think about this post?

I dunno. I think the sticking-to-your-guns and not-understanding-what-I'm-not-understanding is actually kinda townie tbh. Like since you claimed, everything has been internally consistent at least. And while I don't fully understand your POV, or why you made the choices you did, you understand it, and the conviction and exasperation of 'why don't you just understand what I'm saying?' coming from you seems real? I don't know if I explained that well.

[skitter30]

Well, implosion is more or less conftown to me at this point simply because if he switched sides, they'd have enough votes to lynch me and it would be a mafia win. So, any comment I make about imp's play at this point is going to be colored by that perspective. That said, there was something that I thought was quite intelligent he wrote today

So you're arguing that Flubber is a scum-doc and that the team is seph/flubber/two, with Seph being some other scum PR?

And the interesting point about 207 is that there you argued that everyone needed to tell the truth during massclaim lest you end up in LYLO and someone decides to claim to be a cop with a guilty, which is kinda exactly what you did here.

[skitter30]

I dunno. The associatives between you/implosion are kinda ick.

There's guaranteed to be at least one scum in {wave/Seph}, given that you're in a 1v1. I think I'm kinda over the idea that this whole thing is scum theatre, which means that there is also one scum in {flubber/implosion}, assuming me/Serg are town, which I think everyone does.

My reads, independent of claims, are still flubber > seph > wave > implosion, from towniest to scummiest.

The team you're proposing is Two/Seph/Flubber. I can buy that I'm wrong on one of {seph/flubber}, but for that scumteam to make sense, I'd have to be wrong on both of them, and I've been townreading them both since earlygame. I just don't think I'm wrong on both of them tbh, not in this gamestate when that means both of {wave/implosion} have to be town. I just don't see it.

I really just don't think the game or gamestate makes sense if {wave/implosion} are both town. It does make a lot of sense if {wave/implosion} are both scum though.

------

Going through the possible teams given that one (or more) scum is in {wave/Seph} and one (or less) scum is in {flubber/implosion}:

Spoiler:

-seph/flubber: I would be quite shocked if this was the team. The balance would be screwy (this necessitates scum-doc flubber and scum-PR seph; the game you're referencing is a Large). I'm not claiming to have perfect reads, but I don't think my reads are *that* bad in that I'd have to be wrong on literally everyone alive in this game right now not named Serg for this to be the team. Yeah, I don't deny that I definitely could be wrong somewhere .... I just don't think I'm wrong *everywhere*.

- seph/implosion: maybe? But why is implosion protecting town!wave here? Like ... what's the point? He just needs to go along with the mass suspicion of wave and lynch him to win the game.

- seph/wave - really good scum theatre tbh. But we don't lose today if that's the case, so I'm not going to worry about this right now.

-wave/flubber - I guess I can kinda see this if I squint? But why did they have such a big fight today? Why doesn't scum!flubber just side with scum!wave to get town!seph lynched? Like ... why have that fight at all? There's literally no purpose to it.

-wave/implosion - wave kinda cleared implosion through his check, wants Serg to check Seph instead of implosion in the event of a no-lynch, is treating implosion as conftown despite mass suspicion of implosion; implosion is protecting wave and defending him ... these kinda look like partner interactions tbh.

--------

I think I'm back to voting wave tbh; I think I'm kinda ready to end the day (and well, hopefully not the game) whenever Serg is.

-------

Why else would implosion not have turned on me by this point?

The obvious answer is that it's MYLO and that you guys might be partners? In order to win the game if Seph is town?

And the fact that he's never reconsidered his support of you is honestly a little odd given that it's MYLO?

[skitter30]

God, someday people will wake up and recognize that if wavemode is up at 3 am on Christmas writing wallposts,

I don't really do Christmas; I'm on break and it's a random Sunday night for me right now and I have some time on my hands. But you do, so we can like take a break for a day so you can like enjoy the holiday?

Idk. I'm not saying my day1 reads were perfect. I'm saying that after a week of evaluating this, those are my reads, and the team you're positing just doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see it.

I'll try to reevaluate it in the morning I guess, since there's compelling evidence on both sides, but that's kinda where my head's at right now.

[skitter30]

Ah fuck it. That post kinda bleeds town. I don't think you care about it this much if you're scum, and it just doesn't match your meta and there's no reason for defending TIAM of all people, especially since he flipped goon, and you're too annoyed with me for just not getting it and for not getting you.

Sorry for being inconsiderate; I really do forget about Christmas and I really do mean this. I had started writing up another post before my last before I realized that it's fucking Christmas and that you're spending it trying to convince me of this. And like, there's better things to spend a holiday doing. Like, go to sleep and spend time with your family?

Like I think you need me to hear this: I believe you. I don't think you care this much otherwise.

But like, dude, it's Christmas. Like I'll be around tomorrow and we can talk about it then, but like go to sleep?

[skitter30]

Heya Serg. I hope you had a good time at Disney!

I think I've come a round to town!wave tbh. I don't think he cares this much as scum, and I don't think he gets this frustrated with me for not getting it either.

I dunno; I can't really tell anymore. What do you want to do?

[skitter30]

Happy you had a good time!

But there has to be scum in wave/seph though, that's the thing. Gah everyone's kinda scummy now :/

And yeah that's kinda a major sticking point, that he lied through mass-claim and told you to check him.

And I feel kinda AtE'd at too :/

But I also don't think he goes through all of this as scum?

I dunno. Who do you think is scummier in {wave/seph}?