Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

[Ramcius]

Ram is in a red slot and it's gonna be fun to lynch the fuck out of him

my rolecard says otherwise and this your statement makes me want your head - you have said that i was obv town for you in our past games, so you making read on me before i had chance to post shows you got red again

[Ramcius]

anyway, is it worth reading thread?

[Ramcius]

Rach, i was in first game, so i know how things work, more or less

Trans, because my pred played scummy doesn't mean i have red pm and i won't take responsibility for what my pred said or did - i have no idea why they did what they did, you should know better than blame replacement for their pred words and actions

Is it OMGUS, if someone backs up their scumread?

[Ramcius]

what does that mean? You were very confident in your ability reading me before

[Ramcius]

"i'm scum and i think i can get easy ML on you, cause i know you are town" is what i hear, so i just mind my own business and ignore you, we on same group and we aren't voted for lynch this phase

[Ramcius]

anyway, is it worth reading thread?

This is a prodless game, so scum might intentionally avoid posting in the thread if you read just from here.

i always can ISO people in group B for today's lynch, i doubt they can hide all game

my initial point was - is there anything useful or just bunch of bickering? (i've read like first 10 pages)

[Ramcius]

UNVOTE:

i don't want lolhammer before Mick have chance to claim

[Ramcius]

UNVOTE:

i don't want lolhammer before Mick have chance to claim

This looks pretty phony

dunno about you, but i prefer not accidentally lynch 1 of 3 town PRs in this game

[Ramcius]

Trans, it was L-2, and to my defense, i didn't realized Rauth's vote didn't count, when unvoted and thought it's L-1

[Ramcius]

Not sure why CMM is being wagoned more now he still needs to say things. TBH I'm not even sure if he knows we picked Group B yet.

who we should lynch then? I read your ISO, but there no real arguments for your reads

[Ramcius]

Not sure why CMM is being wagoned more now he still needs to say things. TBH I'm not even sure if he knows we picked Group B yet.

who we should lynch then? I read your ISO, but there no real arguments for your reads

Does that make my reads meaningless? (Hint: no)

When give hints, don't give wrong hints

I don't know about other (and not that i care), but when someone give me reads, i expect them to say why their reads are like that and not opposite. Especially when people giving reads are in null zone

[Ramcius]

I am not feeling any passion in the CMM lynch...what are your guyses biggest reasons for bringging him close to the hammer....Especially with snarky as an option

why Snarky better lynch than CMM?

[Ramcius]

As stated in my previous posts, I have a strong scumread of Snarky (reasons in my iso). CMM, I don't really know why the lynch is happening...

ok then, why CMM is town?

[Ramcius]

I NEVER SAID CMM WAS TOWN....I JUST SAID THAT SNARKY PINGED ME AS SCUM MORE....WHEN THE TIME COMES I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO VOTE CMM...I JUST WANT MORE DISCUSSION....WE SHOULD TRY AND PROLONG DAYS SO THAT TOWN GETS MORE INFORMATION...+GIVE CMM A CHANCE TO SPEAK...HE IS PROB SCUM BUT THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO BENFIT FROM US RUSHING ARE SCUM

you want more info, but you don't read thread? Because you had to ask why wagon on CMM

also, big wagon doesn't mean we are lynching him just now, why panic over scumread? You know that each group have 2 scums, right?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: CMM

L-2, we waiting for you, Mick

[Ramcius]

Been pretty swamped at work my B. Committing to getting on properly in about 2hrs and sorting my shit out xo
Lemme know if there's anything y'all want me to taco bout

well, most important question would be - who you think are scums in your group?

[Ramcius]

UNVOTE:

[Ramcius]

Btw, can next day we pick a group with scum that are obvious?

which group is that and who is scum?

[Ramcius]

it's funny how you guys point at groups that aren't yours

[Ramcius]

Saying cmm is a good lynch is lazy at best

you are welcome to propose different lynch with good reasoning

[Ramcius]

RAMICUS?

yes?

[Ramcius]

What? Also, please don't butcher my name, thx

[Ramcius]

I proposed Thor

and i said "with good reasoning", i can call you and Mick lazy too

[Ramcius]

why you want end day here?

[Ramcius]

Is it truly me who has enbarked on this path or CMM who has forced my hand by his negligence?

it's you, cause i want hear more from Snarky at least, maybe someone else have something interesting to say, after all i just got here and i want build some reads while i can without people going st each other, which probably will happen D2 since we will have choose group for lynch/nk

[Ramcius]

VOTE: CMM

right, you guys on other side of the pond have holidays, i will grant your wish then

[Ramcius]

were you camping for hammer?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: B

i was thinking same as Trans during night

[Ramcius]

we leave group B no matter what D3, we have lynch both scums in same group to dissolve group - that means scum can win, if we mislynch in B D3, even if we get scum today

to refill group B we have to lynch 2 scums in a row in other group and even then chance is we get only 1 IC in B instead of possible 2, so i take my chances with B today, plan is to set one PR on first 2 ppl in B and other on bottom 2 (there will be 4 ppl left after lynch), so they won't check same person and we have 50/50 chance to get scum

[Ramcius]

we can mislynch, it will be 2/1 and we have to deal with A and C before going back to B - even if we get 1 IC from each, we'll be at 3/2 LYLO in the end WCS

[Ramcius]

i want do group B and save our PRs, on top of that 50/50 to get scum too

[Ramcius]

we are only lynching in group b today if theres a guilty in that grou

thank you for your understanding of simple logic

And READING THE FUCKING SCUM WINCON

they can win, only if kill all town i group. If we ML, there 1 town left that they can't kill, unless we fuck up and don't choose group in DPI. "If a Goon is lynched Mafia can kill outside that group but only if it couldn't lead to an immediate win" - they can't kill last town, if we lynch goon in other group

@Creature, D2 just started, i don't want make any rash decisions on who to lynch

[Ramcius]

we are only lynching in group b today if theres a guilty in that grou

thank you for your understanding of simple logic

And READING THE FUCKING SCUM WINCON

care to explain?

[Ramcius]

so, how mafia will kill last town in B, if we ML again?

[Ramcius]

Ok, i will provide scenario:

We vote group B and we ML
Then scum kill town
B group consists of 2 mafia and 1 town, scum wincon is to kill all town

Question for @LUV @trans @Checker - "How mafia kill last town to win?"

If we don't choose group in DPI or we choose B, which is ridiculous. So what i'm missing?

P-edit: Trans, we must lynch both mafia to rearrange groups

[Ramcius]

Eli, did you lost your touch or just rolled scum this time?

[Ramcius]

Trans, don't want go back to voting B? Or you can tell me how scum team is going kill last town, if we ML B again

[Ramcius]

ok, bunch of shitters, we voting B

i read scum wincon, yes, it says "if nothing can prevent", yet i still wait explanation how scum can kill last town, but no one explains me

next, currently we have 2 watcher/tracker, scum have 2 rb and 1 rb/rs, if we lynch B, we keep ours and turn rb/rs into shitty swap watcher/tracker results. If we lynch A or C, we turn tracker/watcher into gunsmith that gets guilty on goons/town PRs and is on deathrow, also we give second rb/rs for scum

Why swap is shitty you may ask? Because it would have value only if target is PR, N2 it's useless as our PR in B is dead, so if watcher gets result that dead guy visited instead of being visited we still have guilty, N3 we lose watcher and get gunsmith either way, so that's 1 PR to be targeted by swapper and still same rules apply - it works only if target is PR

why scum having rs is bad for N2? Because they can kill whoever they want and our watcher can't get guilty, also they can protect 1 goon with second rs from gunsmith check

[Ramcius]

5 players 2 scum 3 town
Mislynch in group B
3 players 2 scum 1 town


They win because there is no way we can lynch two scum while they kill the last town.

High risk for little reward as compared to do doing the other two groups and praying

reading is virtue - when both scums in a group are lynched, then alive people are put in other group(s), so we have lynch both scums in A/C to get some ICs in B. If we ignore B now, then there no point going back to B for several day phases - we will be down on PRs (or at least they abilities will be worse) and state in B will be same

[Ramcius]

First, we get ICs to B, from A/C
Second, Watcher is superior to gunsmith, as gunsmith see Goon/townPR as guilty and as i pointed earlier, in B will be 4 ppl left, with 2 watchers it's 50/50 to get guilty
Third, exactly, B group PR is dead, that's why we lynch there, so scum team can't kill PRs is A/C (unless we lynch goon and they decide 3/1 in B is acceptable for them and decides go for A/C kill)

[Ramcius]

it makes sense, just not everyone can see the light

[Ramcius]

Enlighten me then, oh, wise Checkerman, which lurker we should PL today?

[Ramcius]

How are you saying IC as plural for Group B

show me the math

If we mislynch once in both A and C, we get 1 IC from each group, if we don't mislynch, we get 3 ICs from a group

simple math - 14 ppl 10 town 4 scum, we lynch 6 times, we lynch 4 scums and 2 town, scum kill 6 times, that leaves 2 town, so 2 IC
we lynch 5 times, 4 scum, 1 town, scum kill 5 times, we get 4 IC
we lynch 4 times, 4 scum, scum kill 4 times, we get 6 IC

[Ramcius]

No I mean more than one IC in Group B

do that math for me

forget B, we lynch today in B, then we deal with A and C to get ICs - even if we get scum tonight, B will be in LYLO, so we can't lynch in there again, until we get some ICs for A/C

[Ramcius]

is this scum list?

[Ramcius]

seems like a rude comment to me

i agree, your comment was rude

[Ramcius]

hm, you right

VOTE: C

[Ramcius]

who you want lynch in A?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: A

[Ramcius]

Don't make me put my F up your A.

don't u mean

f u ck

i think he meant fist by saying F

[Ramcius]

also there will be 2 rs, so forget watchers

[Ramcius]

hm, now that i think about it, does it stop killing actions too?

[Ramcius]

also, if we lynch goon in C, they still can kill Eli, if they want

[Ramcius]

VOTE: C

we can lynch Desperado, so he don't have to read this thread

[Ramcius]

we can lynch Desperado, so he don't have to read this thread

?

i've read the thread

did you just misunderstand what i said or...?

how about making some efforts to find scums?

[Ramcius]

how about making some efforts to find scums?

you can only lead the horse to the water

well, you going die from thirst, but choice is yours

[Ramcius]

Postgame I'll probably be whining about how we should've lynched Majiffy D2.

we can't lynch in B - as Checkerman pointed out, if we ML B, then there's chance B goes 2/2 and they will decide A or C lynches, whichever group would be left after clearing other one

[Ramcius]

Yes, more or less. And where is the scum thought process in any of my actions because Im pretty sure im town

you pretty sure you are town?

[Ramcius]

even ramcius understands why a group B vote is bad

voting B is basically a scumclaim at this point

Not if we're confident enough scum are Majiffy and Thor.

why you want lose game on the spot, if you wrong? Also, when you became so confident in your reads? In every game before i wanted PL you for coasting/lurking

[Ramcius]

even ramcius understands why a group B vote is bad

voting B is basically a scumclaim at this point

Not if we're confident enough scum are Majiffy and Thor.

why you want lose game on the spot, if you wrong? Also, when you became so confident in your reads? In every game before i wanted PL you for coasting/lurking

We'll have to return to Group B, you know. The game of mafia is based on risks.

Also, I'm decently townreading LUV, momo and SnarkySnowman, so by PoE it's Majiffy and Thor665.

yes, i know that we have return to B, but why risk now?

[Ramcius]

i kindly ask you do not judge my slot by Ali action as i can't defend against what he did/said or whatever else you find AI, thx for understanding

[Ramcius]

i kindly ask you do not judge my slot by Ali action as i can't defend against what he did/said or whatever else you find AI, thx for understanding

I'm not scum reading your slot just based of Ali. Just fyi.

i didn't said you scumread for Ali deeds, i asked don't judge my slot, which was going for few pages. If someone want Discuss something about my slot, they can come directly to me, discussing Ali actions is pointless endeavour, he's not here to explain and i can't talk for him

[Ramcius]

Vote: Mikan

you aware that Mikan is not in game anymore?

[Ramcius]

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

[Ramcius]

you still think it's Desp and Gingie?

[Ramcius]

Ram you're gonna have to spill why you townread Desp if you dont want that slot lynched

Why you think i hold something back? I said it's gut read, just his ignorance felt towny to me

Now question to you - why you jump on my gut read so hard?

[Ramcius]

BECAUSE NO ONE THAT TOWN READ DESP IS ABLE TO ACTUALLY SAY WHY

AND BEFORE YOU SAY IT

GUT DOES NOT SUFFICE

SOMETHING TANGIBLE

SOMETHING I CAN READ

WOULD SUFFICE

Creature asked me opinion, i gave it, what people will do with it, it's their business, and from all people, i feel no need to answer you, cause: a) yo ucan't vote, b) i don't like your approach to my humble really weak opinion

So i suggest you to take your time and try convince people in group A and group B to vote Desp, if you think that's best lynch, shouting on me won't changes my gut reads

[Ramcius]

if that was asking, i don't want to know how it looks, when you demand something

[Ramcius]

Do you townread Desp?

Weakly. I could make a towncase when I get home if you want.

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

Quality over quantity, mate.

And that's not the only reason I'm scumreading you. Or the previous occupant of your slot. Not by a long shot.

If you have something against me, you should say it, cause i'm not getting lynched. Show your "quality"

[Ramcius]

What is it with all you terrible players insisting you can't be lynched?

reading isn't your thing, eh? I said i'm not getting lynched, i didn't said i can't be lynched, i will explain difference to you - it's possible to lynch me, but there quite few people who think i'm scum and quite a lot, who think someone else is scum in my group, so by simple logic we can deduce that it's more likely someone else will be lynched. Hope that's clear enough for you

[Ramcius]

i still waiting your "quality" post about why i'm scum btw

[Ramcius]

i'm still waiting your "quality" post about why i'm scum btw

EBWOP

[Ramcius]

Spoiler:

Spoiler: Mikan/Ramci Scumcase

Here's our first interaction. Which... they ignored.

This catchup is terrible

Go on

So I repeated myself.

This catchup is terrible

Go on

And they reply with a smokescreen non-answer.

This catchup is terrible

Go on

You do nothing that is anything remotely town in it. You just say a lot of stuff that's already been said, you're not adding anything new. it just reads scum to me alright? I'm sorry, run over me with your rocket league cars!

Then there's me calling out their reads - and lack of any explanations for any of them in their ISO

[reads list]

Seeing an awful lot of scum reads and an awful little reasoning in your post history.

Which... they ignored. Sensing a pattern? I am.

Oh yeah other fun fact about that post; they openly suggest to another player that they

contribute less

. While

simultaneously complaining that their contributions weren't enough

. You can't scream cogdis any louder.

Then Mikan goes from scumreading me to "trusting Rach Majiffy can be town" to "tring Majiffy" to "Majiffy is just really, really bad town" which is a read that progressed congruently with interest in my lynch.

And let me tell you all the times I've seen "this person scumreading me is just really bad town" from scumbos. Hint: it's a lot.

-~replacement~-

we can lynch Desperado, so he don't have to read this thread

?

i've read the thread

did you just misunderstand what i said or...?

how about making some efforts to find scums?

This is cute because Ramci has done nothing but argue theory and place empty votes since his replace-in.

In fact, I think as of this post, they haven't pushed a single read for town or scum.

i kindly ask you do not judge my slot by Ali action as i can't defend against what he did/said or whatever else you find AI, thx for understanding

And this is garbage but it's probably NAI garbage.

Previous slot owners are 100% game because

alignments don't change with replacements.

Then there's this series of events

Hey Ramcius, I haven't seen you doing much lately.

It's cuz he's scum

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

Which is great on just so many levels. His response to "You aren't doing much" - clearly an aim at content, not posts - is to strike at the second person calling him out by comparing how much they can hit the submit button?

So then I call him out for it. And he asks me for a case

Do you townread Desp?

Weakly. I could make a towncase when I get home if you want.

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

Quality over quantity, mate.

And that's not the only reason I'm scumreading you. Or the previous occupant of your slot. Not by a long shot.

If you have something against me, you should say it, cause i'm not getting lynched. Show your "quality"

What is it with all you terrible players insisting you can't be lynched?

reading isn't your thing, eh? I said i'm not getting lynched, i didn't said i can't be lynched, i will explain difference to you - it's possible to lynch me, but there quite few people who think i'm scum and quite a lot, who think someone else is scum in my group, so by simple logic we can deduce that it's more likely someone else will be lynched. Hope that's clear enough for you

And this word salad

Which brings us to

i still waiting your "quality" post about why i'm scum btw

Less than an hour

after asking me for a case he's showboating.

Self-conscious as fuck scumbo.

There you go Ramci.

is that all you got?

first, yes alignment don't change, but people sometimes are bad, or how else MLs happens? And that goes both ways - for my pred being bad and looking scummy (which reasonable, Ali got MLed recently in fortnight, a game, where town had only 1 lynch, so stakes were really high) or you are bad, maybe biased like Trans, or, you know, you just rolled scum.

Well, you had time to shitpost, so i pointed to yours "quality over quantity"

[Ramcius]

ConManMick (8): Toto, Transcend, Assemblerotws, Ginngie, Elliberetta, InactionDan, Ramcius, checkersman7 [

Lynch!

]

Those on the B wagon at any point d2: Transcend, Ramicus, Desperado, Creature, Momo, Eddie Fenix, Toto

Those on both wagons: {Transcend, Ramicus, Toto}

I'm willing to give Transcend some leeway, because it really did look like he had no idea about the alternate scum wincon, and he got off the B wagon really quickly. Ramicus, however, does not get this. He held firm until it became uncomfortable for him to do so during his interaction with Checkers on the subject. This is especially egregious, given that Ramicus was in the first Surreptitious game, and the scum wincons were the exact same there.

So if we leave Transcend off, that leaves us with: {Ramicus, Toto}

Going to do that one bit of analysis for Majiffy next and then run comparisons.

i suggest you to look at first game before make such conclusions - setup was different, but i like how hard you holding onto me, i admire your passion

[Ramcius]

first they laugh, then they get scared, then they die

[Ramcius]

Gingie, where yours Desp case i asked yesterday, when you jumped on me for gut read on him?

[Ramcius]

@Mod

sorry, replace me, i just don't feel like i can deal with these people without going overboard

[Ramcius]

i suggest you to look at first game before make such conclusions - setup was different, but i like how hard you holding onto me, i admire your passion

I did, actually, because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. The first game had the exact same scum wincons.

then try 1 more time, i will give you a hint - traitor didn't counted for scum wincon in first game, so basically it was 4 vs 1 in all groups opposed to 5 vs 2 and 3vs 2 after ML in B, when in first game it was impossible to get 3 vs 2 scenario

[Ramcius]

Why are people town reading des? he is not being the abrasive in your face des I know him to be when he is town, and he is not scum reading me like he does when he is town.

not playing to usual town meta doesn't mean someone is scum, that's on top of general consensus "meta is trash", so can you provide actual reason why Desp is scum?

[Ramcius]

ramcius lol you're back

well, i saw no one4 wanted my slot, so i asked it back

[Ramcius]

There is an alarming amount of resistance to desperado ...

but no one can make case on Desp either

[Ramcius]

is this is his scum meta?

[Ramcius]

Can i fake a guilty again

if it's Gingie, sure

[Ramcius]

is that all you got?

first, yes alignment don't change, but people sometimes are bad, or how else MLs happens? And that goes both ways - for my pred being bad and looking scummy (which reasonable, Ali got MLed recently in fortnight, a game, where town had only 1 lynch, so stakes were really high) or you are bad, maybe biased like Trans, or, you know, you just rolled scum.

Well, you had time to shitpost, so i pointed to yours "quality over quantity"

Your defense is "townies can be scummy too" and a tu quoque?

no, my defense is that you either stubborn bad town or scum, you try push "alignment won't change" idea, when you only guessing alignment, which is ridiculous - your read is subjective, you can't push it as objective argument

[Ramcius]

no, my defense is that you either stubborn bad town or scum, you try push "alignment won't change" idea, when you only guessing alignment, which is ridiculous - your read is subjective, you can't push it as objective argument

What, exactly, constitutes "objective" in mafia arguments? I'm genuinely interested.

well, me knowing my alignment is objective for example

i'm glad you know that most things aren't objective in mafia, so why you act like your read on my slot is absolute and unchangeable?

[Ramcius]

Also, why we ignore Von?

[Ramcius]

well, Ali being replaced long ago won't stop people going after him

[Ramcius]

HI,
Reading. Why did you guys vote to lynch from group c, when B is considerably smaller? Or do I need to read the rules again.

it's game mechanics related, another ML in B would lose game

[Ramcius]

i suggest you to look at first game before make such conclusions - setup was different, but i like how hard you holding onto me, i admire your passion

I did, actually, because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. The first game had the exact same scum wincons.

then try 1 more time, i will give you a hint - traitor didn't counted for scum wincon in first game, so basically it was 4 vs 1 in all groups opposed to 5 vs 2 and 3vs 2 after ML in B, when in first game it was impossible to get 3 vs 2 scenario

Quoting from all scum role PMs in last game: "You win when all the Town have been eliminated from a single Group or nothing can prevent this and there is at least 1 Mafia member left alive."
This includes the traitor, who was called "Mafia Traitor" in that game.
I'd expect if you were town, you might say something along the lines of "Yeah, but I didn't notice it in the last game.", something to show that you might have just missed it. However, you're doubling down, which shows that you were definitely aware of the win con going into this game, and your hop off of B because "You're right, Chess!" comes across as extremely fake.

you did lazy job - " In addition to this, Mafia have a Traitor who does not count as a member of the Mafia until all the main Mafia members are Lynched." that's from first game and we not lynching in B not because of mafia can kill all town in B, but because it might end 2/2 in B and that's straight up loss, when B would be in charge of remaining group A or C, it's alternative wincon, not direct one described in scum rolecard

[Ramcius]

no, my defense is that you either stubborn bad town or scum, you try push "alignment won't change" idea, when you only guessing alignment, which is ridiculous - your read is subjective, you can't push it as objective argument

What, exactly, constitutes "objective" in mafia arguments? I'm genuinely interested.

well, me knowing my alignment is objective for example

i'm glad you know that most things aren't objective in mafia, so why you act like your read on my slot is absolute and unchangeable?

I really want to know why people are townreading these types of arguments from Ramicus.

Why telling someone that they can't lock replacement in read they had on pred is scummy?

[Ramcius]

Bulbs town.
VOTE: Ram

just because you think he's town doesn't makes his reads right, just FYI

[Ramcius]

i suggest you to look at first game before make such conclusions - setup was different, but i like how hard you holding onto me, i admire your passion

I did, actually, because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. The first game had the exact same scum wincons.

then try 1 more time, i will give you a hint - traitor didn't counted for scum wincon in first game, so basically it was 4 vs 1 in all groups opposed to 5 vs 2 and 3vs 2 after ML in B, when in first game it was impossible to get 3 vs 2 scenario

Quoting from all scum role PMs in last game: "You win when all the Town have been eliminated from a single Group or nothing can prevent this and there is at least 1 Mafia member left alive."
This includes the traitor, who was called "Mafia Traitor" in that game.
I'd expect if you were town, you might say something along the lines of "Yeah, but I didn't notice it in the last game.", something to show that you might have just missed it. However, you're doubling down, which shows that you were definitely aware of the win con going into this game, and your hop off of B because "You're right, Chess!" comes across as extremely fake.

you did lazy job - " In addition to this, Mafia have a Traitor who does not count as a member of the Mafia until all the main Mafia members are Lynched." that's from first game and we not lynching in B not because of mafia can kill all town in B, but because it might end 2/2 in B and that's straight up loss, when B would be in charge of remaining group A or C, it's alternative wincon, not direct one described in scum rolecard

Good job. You were right on the traitor, which means nothing, because my original point was that the scum wincon was the same: that all town had to be killed in a group in order to win. Saying "Well, it was just a tiny bit different" doesn't mean a thing when the game's format is essentially the same. You don't get a pass here.

no, my defense is that you either stubborn bad town or scum, you try push "alignment won't change" idea, when you only guessing alignment, which is ridiculous - your read is subjective, you can't push it as objective argument

What, exactly, constitutes "objective" in mafia arguments? I'm genuinely interested.

well, me knowing my alignment is objective for example

i'm glad you know that most things aren't objective in mafia, so why you act like your read on my slot is absolute and unchangeable?

I really want to know why people are townreading these types of arguments from Ramicus.

Why telling someone that they can't lock replacement in read they had on pred is scummy?

And when I said that I was also scumreading you? You didn't push that, but hid behind your predecessor so we couldn't attack you? And what about all my reasons for scumreading your slot that I gave Majiffy? That wasn't just Alisae. You are holding onto your predecessor and using her as a shield so that you can excuse your own scuminess.

i like how you straight up ignored actual reason to leave B group alone and still hold on your wincon BS

Well, i saw what was directed at me, i usually ignore big china walls directed to other people

Also, FYI, Thor vote is based on Ali, he didn't even bothered vote me and voted Ali, Majiffy too, his argument against me was laughable and even he knows, he didn't pushed me for not addressing argument that i haven't pushed any reads, but jumped to defend his fallacy about his read being absolute, then we have momo, who is voting due Ali, Edie's vote is just a counter to Gingie wagon, so as you see, you are alone with real attempt to scumread me, yet again, your arguments are BS, i disprove it again and again, yet you coming back with "same wincon", when issue wasn't wincon, but game entering state, where scum can't lose

[Ramcius]

Are you reading thread or ...? I literally asked wait for Mick, i unvoted twice to not lolhammer, but when everyone in group inactive af and people wanted Mick dead, FYI it was Luv, who was made my mind up, when he came up and said it's thanksgiving and asked end it. Also, should i point out that you voting together with momo - person you were sitting on during Mick's lynch?

Do you want me to bring Ali for you to explain his actions? How i'm supposed to know why he changed his reads? How i should know why he said what he said? You really not making sense with it, so tell me how i can get in Ali head to explain what he did?

[Ramcius]

I literally asked wait for Mick, i unvoted twice to not lolhammer, but when everyone in group inactive af and people wanted Mick dead, FYI it was Luv, who was made my mind up, when he came up and said it's thanksgiving and asked end it.

"L-2 we're waiting for you Mick" is incredibly fake justification for joining the most popular wagon. The only vote that was worse than yours was Assemble's.

Also, should i point out that you voting together with momo - person you were sitting on during Mick's lynch?

I'm currently off the wagon, and that's one of the reasons why. I'm taking some time to clear my head a bit. But even if I jump back on, you and Momo can both be scum and not know that you're both scum. That's a very weak attempt at discrediting my push.

Do you want me to bring Ali for you to explain his actions? How i'm supposed to know why he changed his reads? How i should know why he said what he said? You really not making sense with it, so tell me how i can get in Ali head to explain what he did?

I'm pretty sure I cut everything having to do with Ali when I reposted that snippet above. Yet you've still found a way to bring the argument back around to "Well, I'm not responsible for what my partner did or said, so you can't hold it against me.".

Because your snippet full of Ali, you make me look scummy, because i refuse talk about his actions

I asked people to provide different scumread, i think i asked Snarky twice to back up reads, but no one was interested in doing someone else, so what i had to do? Wait someone else to hammer? I had no scumreads, i was just replaced in, i looked at post count and saw that usual suspects were spammers and group B had low posters, i ISO'ed Mick and couple other people, found nothing and realized people aren't interesting in game, they just want end day, so why i should i extend, when no one want different lynch?

[Ramcius]

And now?

well, if i could vote, i would be on Gingie wagon, sadly i could only try persuade people vote there

[Ramcius]

Why do you think Ginngie is scum?

i really disliked, when demanded explain gut TR on Desp, i can't really explain, but that was really strange and out of place, i don't like this OMGUS after i voiced my sr on her too - while she believed i would support Desp lynch, she was leaning town on me, i disliked interaction with Toto too

[Ramcius]

well, i was referring to

I mean my Group C progression has been

scum: Transcend, Trans/Mikan, Mikan, Mikan/Desp, Desp/Von, Desp/Ram

and now I'm questioning it again but okay cupcake

you were ok with me, when i was pushing Desp and C group for lynch, but later your read changed

also this is interesting in context with first quote

My read is null on Von because he hasn't done anything nor do I have any experience with him to judge that on

Von was your scumread, yet you here say he's null, because no content or meta, also you say you haven't townread me, so how you ended up with Von/Desp as your scumreads? Don't say PoE, because you saying you didn't TR me, so why null Von could end up PoE'd as scum?

Also, nice beetlejuice

[Ramcius]

@Elli: I pointed out that Gin is the same here as 17 Kilos. Why are you still on that wagon?

@Ram: Any other reads?

null on Von, Checkers town, Trans prob too, Rach null zone, maybe leaning scum for attack on Snarky, he's not only person voicing scumreads in other groups, so why excude him like that?

[Ramcius]

Gingie, can i hear your case on me?

[Ramcius]

Gingie, can i hear your case on me?

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1637

thx, OMGUS it is then, carry on

[Ramcius]

Ram stop being stupid

why you try appeal to your scumread?

[Ramcius]

Focus on desp/von/Trans

That's the topic for the coming days

I'm not being wagoned and the more these days go on, obv!town Ginngie comes more into the light so you gotta town it up if you want to survive here lad

thx for advice, but i have no intentions to change my playstyle to accommodate for people, who don't give a shit about my plays

[Ramcius]

@Elli: I pointed out that Gin is the same here as 17 Kilos. Why are you still on that wagon?

@Ram: Any other reads?

null on Von, Checkers town, Trans prob too, Rach null zone, maybe leaning scum for attack on Snarky, he's not only person voicing scumreads in other groups, so why excude him like that?

Any from outside C? I don't need a breakdown by player. I'm just trying to see some type of read progression from you.

Creature prob town, Snarky town, Toto is town, really dislike Majiffy, don't know what to make of Thor ignoring me and being locked on Ali, LUV i never was able to read and i don't feel like i can do it now, Eli i don't know, i want to believe he's town, but i feel like he lacks interest in game, rest null to me

[Ramcius]

i played only once with SS, in first Surr, and his play kinda reminds me of that game

[Ramcius]

In what way?

he wasn't really scumhunting, but more interested in breaking game via Neap usage, so i'm not surprised that he couldn't give me cases on scumreads, when he tried fight Mick wagon

[Ramcius]

no, my defense is that you either stubborn bad town or scum, you try push "alignment won't change" idea, when you only guessing alignment, which is ridiculous - your read is subjective, you can't push it as objective argument

What, exactly, constitutes "objective" in mafia arguments? I'm genuinely interested.

well, me knowing my alignment is objective for example

i'm glad you know that most things aren't objective in mafia, so why you act like your read on my slot is absolute and unchangeable?

I never posited my read to be absolute and unchangeable. You have strawmanned it that way. But lets keep following your argument out, shall we?

Person A believes Person B is scum. Person B believes Person A is scum. Both A and B state their alignment is Town. Neither one is known to the other.

How do you posit an objective argument be made to lynch either of them, based on the position '[that] unless an argument is objective it is invalid'?

nah, my friend, you said i'm scum, because you had scum read on my pred, that's on your part, not mine. Your exact words were "alignment don't change"

Also, i like example, because we had that situation in recent Ali game, 2 hydras was at each other throat, both were town. So if 2 people call each other scum doesn't mean one of them is scum, but i appreciate your efforts

[Ramcius]

Hurry up and kill someone

are you volunteer to eat rope?

[Ramcius]

No i eat dog treats

sadly we have just rope

[Ramcius]

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram - yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there.

Well, i'm town, but you scum probably, so yes, no issue i guess, carry on

[Ramcius]

Are we really going to spend the next 3 days discussing anyone but people in group C? For realz.

Come on guys we need some consensus at some point.

Gun to head, who do you feel is most likely scum in group C and who is 2nd on your list in group C.

NOT B, NOT A but C

Well, how about you try push C group instead of bickering and complaining about someone, who actually is voting in group C?

[Ramcius]

Whats your case on Ramcius scum, describe it as simply as you can.

Why don't you just read it?

And to addendum that; since that case has been presented, Ramci has spent the entire time misrepping/strawmanning my case on him as entirely "Mikan scumread ergo Ramci scum" when

the majority of the presented case

is actually about Ramci's participation.

I'm not arguing definitions. Ram is. Please go back and re-read.

I'm getting him to expand his definitions because his argument is ludicrous and I'm letting him dig his own hole.

I'm not sure if you're just dumb or intentionally not getting what I'm laying down here.

Did i? Or you just picked on this topic and ignored everything else i said about your presented case on me? Anyway, why you didn't pushed me on your provided arguments, but escalate this misreping/strawmaning as you call?

[Ramcius]

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram - yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there.

Well, i'm town, but you scum probably, so yes, no issue i guess, carry on

I will take that as cowardly admittance that your core "complaint" about my push on you is meaningless and that you were just trying to act like my push was weak, when you recognize it is valid.
Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you can.

Valid? Yes, you are free accuse anyone you like for any reason you like, but i don't have agree with scumread on me, that's NAI. But that doesn't mean you are right. How many times have you played with town Ali? Cause from my personal experience he get scumread often.

[Ramcius]

Lynching the inactive over a clearly scummy player... Didn't we do this D1?

yes, and i regret that we left you alive, we fix this D4, don't worry

[Ramcius]

Valid? Yes, you are free accuse anyone you like for any reason you like, but i don't have agree with scumread on me, that's NAI. But that doesn't mean you are right. How many times have you played with town Ali? Cause from my personal experience he get scumread often.

I'm just defending from your crass and meaningless case dismissal of me, that you know you did, and now you're playing word games to avoid admitting.

I've played with Alisae quite a number of times.
I actually would suggest that as long as you have people who know how to read Alisae, then town reads are usually what you get.
I don't see that happening here.

What's your experience with Alisae and do you think their play was towny?

In pretty much every game Ali got scumread, so either you have different experience somehow or you feel like you are very good at reading him. That comes from simple fact, you locked on read, you don't think "Ali is scumread most of time, so i will see what his replacement will tell", no, you just ignored me.

Now for the case, can you explain how i can know why Ali scumread people, why Ali townread other people? Or why he changed his read, when he did as momo case on me goes? Sorry, but Ali didn't left notes for me

[Ramcius]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PsLdeyAXI8[/youtube]

i'll let him make it, at least that he can do

[Ramcius]

i'll let him make it, at least that he can do

hope now works

[Ramcius]

Taking bets paying 2 to 1 against. Congrats.

What are the odds ram is scum? I'm around 66%. Desp is 50/50 for me.

you would lose your bet on me

[Ramcius]

I actually would suggest that as long as you have people who know how to read Alisae, then town reads are usually what you get.
I don't see that happening here.

I think it's funny that Ram just ignores this to continue pushing "Ali is always scumread, so this push on me is bad!". Thor just said that you rely on people who normally know how to read Alisae, and generally they give townreads, except in this game. AKA the people he normally relies on to tell him Ali is town is telling him the exact opposite this game. Meanwhile, Ram is stuck recycling "Ali is always scumread" and ignoring the whole point that there are people in the game who know how to read the slot and are not happy.

where are these people and why they not on my wagon? Also, Trans said that most people were TRing Ali, when i joined

Let's see what's on wagon - Thor, we skip, Majiffy (scumread by quite a few ppl), momo, who is there because Ali changed read on him and didn't told him why, Edie, because it was counter to his townread Gingie wagon, Vax, still have no idea why he's there, but doubt for Ali plays

Also, how about people who probably can read me? Trans had no problems read me 4 times before, Creature played with me 5 times already, so probably have some idea how to read me

Lastly, why you TR Thor?

[Ramcius]

should have used words

through the limited amount of games von does play, it's quite shite as scum and you can tell he tries as town

general trend I looked at so I'm okay with the votes

How do you feel about Desp and Ram?

what am I lying about exactly?

It's like you're not reading.

P-edit: I never said I did town read Thor, but I'm not scumreading him. I'm at "fine with his content and can figure it out later".

In other words, you don't give a shit, if Thor is scum pushing town, because he not in lynch pool?

[Ramcius]

I want Desp and Ram equally. Von is that blank slate on the wall that keeps coming up town based on other reads. I wouldn't cry if he was lynched, but deep down, I don't think he's the right lynch, and he'll probably end up flipping town. I'm onboard to lynch Desp, but if I don't see any movement in that direction over the next day or so, I'll be jumping back on Ram, and that will probably be the catalyst for his lynch.

P-edit: Thor could be scum pushing other scum. As town, his reasons line up. As scum, he's probably just sheeping Majiffy. And if not, I don't care much to jump into why he's doing what he's doing atm. That will become clear over time. In essence, his alignment has no bearing on your alignment or on my read of you.

still waiting list of people, who can read Ali well and are scumreading his play

[Ramcius]

@Mod

if no lynch happens, does scum have kill in DPI chosen group or they free kill anywhere?

[Ramcius]

2.) I don't feel as annoyed by you, but I still think you are going through some mental gymnastics with Desp. Vax is now on the Desp wagon. I'd prefer that one at this point, but if you'd prefer to go after a lurker, I'll just go back onto Ramicus, and LUV will hammer.

so you're threatening him with playing against your wincon?

are you sure he's town tho?

[Ramcius]

In pretty much every game Ali got scumread, so either you have different experience somehow or you feel like you are very good at reading him. That comes from simple fact, you locked on read, you don't think "Ali is scumread most of time, so i will see what his replacement will tell", no, you just ignored me.'

Considering how you appear to know how often Alisae is scumread - did you check into, say, my games with her?

Now for the case, can you explain how i can know why Ali scumread people, why Ali townread other people? Or why he changed his read, when he did as momo case on me goes? Sorry, but Ali didn't left notes for me

I don't think you can know those things - but you don't need to know them to answer whether you think her play is townish or not.

you joking, right? In what world i would say his play wasn't townish? That's straight up gamethrowing as any alignment, on top of that, he used gimmick and i haven't read anything past page 10 till i replaced in

[Ramcius]

Like a Desp lynch or a vonflare replace.

how about 2 for 1? Lynch Von

[Ramcius]

Like risk an infoless lynch and another dead PR the next day?

what info desp lynch gives?

[Ramcius]

Let's see:

There are players that actually think he's scum and isn't just policy lynching him for not doing anything like we have done with CMM. He has been a major counterwagon to both Ginngie and Ramcius.

You defending Desp lynch, but what info we get? Who is scum, if he flip red? Who is scum, if he flip green?

[Ramcius]

Let's see:

There are players that actually think he's scum and isn't just policy lynching him for not doing anything like we have done with CMM. He has been a major counterwagon to both Ginngie and Ramcius.

You defending Desp lynch, but what info we get? Who is scum, if he flip red? Who is scum, if he flip green?

we get scum dumbass

this is seriously horrid logic

"even if he's scum what do we gain"

DEAD SCUM

Reading isn't your strong suit i guess? Von can flip scum too and we get dead scum, what makes Desp better dead scum than Von dead scum?

[Ramcius]

sounds like you're talking about info lynches dude

"but what info we get?"

sounds a lot like basing it around info

yes, reading is hard for you, let me help

Like risk an infoless lynch and another dead PR the next day?

this is what Creature answered to my offer to lynch Von over Desp

[Ramcius]

inactivity is NAI, but that doesn't mean we should give free pass for inactive people, that's just promotes them continue being anti-town

[Ramcius]

you know there's a search IN THIS THREAD feature right

Still it's not possible to search "players who think vonflare tries harder as town" and I sorta expected you could say some names.

you don't try hard enough

should have used words

through the limited amount of games von does play, it's quite shite as scum and you can tell he tries as town

general trend I looked at so I'm okay with the votes

here's one example

[Ramcius]

Like, say, Ram. Who continues to be dodgy and is refusing to engage with me honestly despite repeated chances being offered.
What do you think of my attempts to engage Ram and his repeated twisting away from it?

i'm here, we can talk about what i have done in this game, but you don't want, you want talk about Ali play, which i haven't read, i asked people if i should read thread, only answer came from Creature in kinda "maybe" form, i looked at top posters, saw Checkers, Trans, my pred (didn't knew it was Ali at the time), Creature, Eli at top and all names that were relevant (group B) were low posters, so i simply decided read ISOs.

[Ramcius]

@Toto

Let me even give my version of the discussion between Ram and I - and you tell me how you think it's a conversation with a town Ram and/or show me where I'm misrepresenting what was said;

Thor: Ali slot is scum
Ram: Thor's case is BS because it's based on Ali's play and not my play. Look, he even voted me by voting the previous slot holder!!!
Thor: Yeah, that's true - how is that an issue?
Ram: I'm town!
Thor: What's that have to do with having an issue with me voting due to Ali as opposed to voting due to you?
Ram: Nothing, what you did was valid.
Thor: Then why did you complain about it to attack my vote as though my vote were bad or scummy in any way at all?
Ram: ...
Thor

Yes, i said, it's valid, in a sense that you can make that read, but i don't have to agree with your read, what i am doing all this time

[Ramcius]

Player A: I scum read you
Player B: well I don't think I'll agree with you


Like if your ass EVER agrees with Player A, when you're player B, you have a problem

Yes, we have, Thor: "I scumread Ali", Me: "Why you don't try read me? Ali isn't here anymore to defend himself and i can't talk for him" and we are stuck here

[Ramcius]

Yes, we have, Thor: "I scumread Ali", Me: "Why you don't try read me? Ali isn't here anymore to defend himself and i can't talk for him" and we are stuck here

Within the last 48 hours I've made some direct and specific points about how Ram is playing - you're not dealing with those and are still acting like it's impossible to discuss the case, which just appears to be a new misdirection defense attempt on your part, quite frankly.

I will tell you 1 more time - i'm not discussing Ali actions, i haven't read from page 11 to like page 60, also i can't make objective read on my pred plays, because i share same rolecard, why you not try discuss with people, who were townreading him instead?

[Ramcius]

Yes, we have, Thor: "I scumread Ali", Me: "Why you don't try read me? Ali isn't here anymore to defend himself and i can't talk for him" and we are stuck here

Within the last 48 hours I've made some direct and specific points about how Ram is playing - you're not dealing with those and are still acting like it's impossible to discuss the case, which just appears to be a new misdirection defense attempt on your part, quite frankly.

I will tell you 1 more time - i'm not discussing Ali actions, i haven't read from page 11 to like page 60, also i can't make objective read on my pred plays, because i share same rolecard, why you not try discuss with people, who were townreading him instead?

You're quoting me asking you to address the points I raised against your actions with a complaint that you can't defend against Ali's actions.

Ok then, make short summary of what i should address then

[Ramcius]

Well, as I've already said (and, frankly Bulb is kinda saying above also) multiple of us get the feeling you're hiding behind the Alisae defense.
For me specifically I'd note that you straight up attacked my case on you, and when called out on the why you literally had no reason to deflect the case, but yet you're being very dodgy in avoiding wanting to admit that I'm allowed to, and quite possibly have perfectly valid reasons to have been and to have continued attacking your slot due to Alisae's actions.
You've also ducked debating with me about Alisae's meta - like when I explicitly asked you if you'd looked up games involving both her and I - and instead hid behind a very generic and empty "aw, she's always suspected" (which really just looks like an empty handwave that anything she did should be ignored)
Finally you've devolved to this oddball position of not having read half the game because, apparently, Creature told you to or something - which is meaningless noise that has nothing to do with anything, and you certainly could have at least looked at Bulb, or Majiffy's, or my own case against Alisae via a very mild ISO dive to assess which, if any, looked reasonable to you instead of doing the empty hand wave defense you're opting for to dismiss it all over.

Would you like to discuss how this defense from you is scummy and terrible as I've described here?
Or you could do the one Bulba did in spoiler above?
Or both?

You got it wrong, Creature was only person telling me i should read thread, no one else gave a shit about if i read or not.

I'm not hiding, i'm ignoring Ali content, it doesn't matter, if i say "yes, Ali was scummy" or "Ali was towny", i can't be objective on this matter, i'm in his slot, i know his alignment/role.

Next, i won't look games, i'm not judging your ability read Ali, as you nicely put Bulb in, he pointed out that you rely on other people to read Ali, so i use my personal experience on how other people are judging his play. I gave recent game example to Majiffy - Fortnight, i was TRing Ali, majority didn't and lynched him.

I'm not doing anything? I try get people on Von wagon and save Desp

As for other people defending me, it's their business, i didn't asked anyone to defend me, i won't stop them either. If someone have different read from you, it's your business to convince them, not mine.

[Ramcius]

Did you ever give a reason why you're townreading Desp?

i told long ago, it's gut feeling

[Ramcius]

@Ram - all I see in that post is a giant list of excuses for you not to comment on anything.

if everything you want to talk is Ali, then yes, have a nice day

[Ramcius]

@Ram - all I see in that post is a giant list of excuses for you not to comment on anything.

if everything you want to talk is Ali, then yes, have a nice day

I gave a long list of non Alisae issues and you basically weaved around those also.
Also, quite frankly, it *is* valid to talk about Alisae - you can't offer insight from within her own head, but that is not a valid excuse to refuse to discuss the slot totally.
That's a cheap dodge.

Ok, let's talk, you say i do nothing, but what about other 5 ppl in group C? Desp, Trans, Rach, Von and Gingie? What they are doing to lynch scum so close to EoD?

P-edit: Gingie, when you show your towniness as promised?

[Ramcius]

I agree he's not producing much, I only really have an issue with that if he's using all the time he's spending defending himself as an excuse for said poor production - because that's obvious hoo-hah.

It's not like he's alone in not producing much (heck, I'd toss myself in that category) so I have less issue with that in a broad spectrum look at this game.

Lern2red noob.

what is "lern" and "red", sensei?

[Ramcius]

Good plan, avoid discussing how you awkward straw manned me.
Avoid discussing my response to your question.
Instead tell a joke. Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

If you try insult me, least i can do is to tell you a joke, i think this is right, also it shows how much i care about your case at this point

[Ramcius]

@Ram - all I see in that post is a giant list of excuses for you not to comment on anything.

if everything you want to talk is Ali, then yes, have a nice day

I gave a long list of non Alisae issues and you basically weaved around those also.
Also, quite frankly, it *is* valid to talk about Alisae - you can't offer insight from within her own head, but that is not a valid excuse to refuse to discuss the slot totally.
That's a cheap dodge.

Ok, let's talk, you say i do nothing, but what about other 5 ppl in group C? Desp, Trans, Rach, Von and Gingie? What they are doing to lynch scum so close to EoD?

P-edit: Gingie, when you show your towniness as promised?

If I didn't have a countdown to abide by, my vote would be back on the slot for this alone.

Place that vote, don't be afraid, i won't eat you

[Ramcius]

Good plan, avoid discussing how you awkward straw manned me.
Avoid discussing my response to your question.
Instead tell a joke. Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

If you try insult me, least i can do is to tell you a joke, i think this is right, also it shows how much i care about your case at this point

You do care about my vote - it's why you keep trying to deflect and/or avoid actually addressing me about it.

No, i talk to you, because thread is dead and i'm bored

[Ramcius]

Then why not talk to someone else?

to whom?

[Ramcius]

Pick someone. Ask questions. Try to figure crap out. It's not exactly hard.

What to figure out? I have my scumreads on Von and Gingie, Gingie isn't happening, so only thing i can do is try get people on Von, but with this inactivity he's elusive af to being lynched and people aren't interested in his lynch, on top of that, people just want flip at this point, they not interested in discussing

[Ramcius]

@mod

i think momo needs good kick in soft spot, 5+ days absent from thread

[Ramcius]

oh yeah

that one scum read where you got mad when I asked you to explain a read

right

i didn't got mad at all, and your defense was that most people townread you, so you must be town, how i can fight against such defense?

[Ramcius]

you love being cheeky instead of scum hunting

nah, i didn't achieved your level yet

[Ramcius]

ye, i'm around

[Ramcius]

please end my suffering

you should claim PR, it might attract scums attention

[Ramcius]

VOTE: C

let's get goon in C and we get 3 ICs

[Ramcius]

i'm more interested how scum killed 2 of our PRs in a row

[Ramcius]

We should pressure Group B. We'll have to revisit here.

we can't lynch in B, unless someone comes with guilty

[Ramcius]

Creature, if we lynch goon, they can kill anyone they like

[Ramcius]

It's better than mislynching in Group A and losing last PR.

you don't understand, they *can* kill A group PR, if we lynch any goon

[Ramcius]

"If a Goon is lynched Mafia can kill outside that group but only if it couldn't lead to an immediate win."

for people that can't read

now that i got your attention - we lynch goon in C and they have choose - give us 4 ICs or kill last PR, we lynch in A, we lose last PR, how about this math?

[Ramcius]

"If a Goon is lynched Mafia can kill outside that group but only if it couldn't lead to an immediate win."

for people that can't read

now that i got your attention - we lynch goon in C and they have choose - give us 4 ICs or kill last PR, we lynch in A, we lose last PR, how about this math?

EBWP

[Ramcius]

why the fuck does majiffy still breathe air

because we can't lynch in B

[Ramcius]

VOTE: B

i'm down, let's get Majiffy

[Ramcius]

vonflare is pretty much a mislynch, we know for sure.

who's goon then?

[Ramcius]

I do agree that there is value in the VCA but it is incredibly presumptious to say that any counter wagon to scum is automatically also scum. I think that is pretty much the opposite interpretation tbh - why would scum stick their neck out for an unknown? If they were trying to protect scum!Ram there was the far more easier bus of Vonflare imo. Looking back, Desperado was actively posting and Vonflare doing not much. If I was choosing which of those players I'd want on my team, I'd have picked Desperado. I think that the Ram wagon is more telling that Ram is probably town.

People tried to get the Von vote going and then it moved to Desp. For all intents and purposes the traitor lynch in VCA is a townflip. From the goon perspective "any lynch not goon is probably town" fits what happened. Ramci is goon.

so, you telling, that scum team, who managed to find both PRs wasn't able to recognize scum PR and lynched Desp over Von to save me?

[Ramcius]

and lottery is game of chance

we have lynch here, who we think is scum, not play odds

[Ramcius]

Bulba please explain how majiffy and von are town.

scumbuddies

[Ramcius]

if you want lynch in C, at least state who you want lynch

[Ramcius]

UNVOTE:

[Ramcius]

VOTE: C

at this point i don't care anymore, i just want this to end

[Ramcius]

i'm more interested in group C scumread from Gingie, she's voting there over A

Group B isnb't happening, people too scared sadly

[Ramcius]

Creature, are you sure you got it right? I always thought it was Bonn...

[Ramcius]

Why did group C not get merged into A and B

because we still have goon in C

[Ramcius]

What's the point of lynching in C if you're all just gonna mislynch vonflare?

can you explain why Von is town?

[Ramcius]

Creature, why you think scum lynched Desp over Von?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: B

[Ramcius]

Actually we don't need to straight out lynch Thor, this day is just about to start.

That should make everyone rushing to the B group stop and use their brains.
Not that I expect it to happen, but if you all want to be strongarmed into a group selection that's on you.

A remains the better group for town to lynch in.

Because we might ML in A?

Anyway, there is very good rule for situations like this - don't trust caught scum

[Ramcius]

WHY DO THEY LET ME HAVE ALTS

VOTE: THor

comic relief

also VOTE: Thor

[Ramcius]

Actually we don't need to straight out lynch Thor, this day is just about to start.

That should make everyone rushing to the B group stop and use their brains.
Not that I expect it to happen, but if you all want to be strongarmed into a group selection that's on you.

A remains the better group for town to lynch in.

Because we might ML in A?

Anyway, there is very good rule for situations like this - don't trust caught scum

We might lynch correctly in A too - and we're obligated to lynch there eventually, so...?

eventually, yes, but at this point we have no clear reads in A, and we get free shot in B and C for 2 next day phases, so we in no rush getting A

[Ramcius]

Creature, why you think scum lynched Desp over Von?

Going to bookmark this for later. Given current events, I'll need to think if my feelings on this post still holds weight.

So, what you think now about Von, when Thor is caught scum?

[Ramcius]

eventually, yes, but at this point we have no clear reads in A, and we get free shot in B and C for 2 next day phases, so we in no rush getting A

If your argument is you have no reads in a group then I would suggest you have issues in the concept of 'how to play' rather than 'how to play this setup correctly.

Also, you don't have a free shot in C at the moment unless your argument is that you're gunning for a mislynch there.

Oh, i have reads, but what i mean is that we don't have reads as a whole group, or people aren't telling their reads in A as they do with B and C

as for free shot, i mean we can lynch and not lose on spot, this will give us time to take better look at A too

[Ramcius]

For me in group C, vonflare easily seems the least town. I could be getting played really hard, or we could get 4 ICs. I definitely want to vote Group C tomorrow. The Thor lynch has given us a chance. We need to capitalize on this advantage. (Assuming thor flips scum).

Who's goon then?

[Ramcius]

For me in group C, vonflare easily seems the least town. I could be getting played really hard, or we could get 4 ICs. I definitely want to vote Group C tomorrow. The Thor lynch has given us a chance. We need to capitalize on this advantage. (Assuming thor flips scum).

Who's goon then?

nvm, i read "looks town", i missed least town

[Ramcius]

eventually, yes, but at this point we have no clear reads in A, and we get free shot in B and C for 2 next day phases, so we in no rush getting A

If your argument is you have no reads in a group then I would suggest you have issues in the concept of 'how to play' rather than 'how to play this setup correctly.

Also, you don't have a free shot in C at the moment unless your argument is that you're gunning for a mislynch there.

Oh, i have reads, but what i mean is that we don't have reads as a whole group, or people aren't telling their reads in A as they do with B and C

as for free shot, i mean we can lynch and not lose on spot, this will give us time to take better look at A too

So your complaint about not wanting to lynch in A is that people haven't been obligated to offer some solid reads in A?

Want a hint on how to get them to offer reads?
Make the lynch in A.
Derpy dee.

how about you tell who is your buddy in A and we might consider lynch in there?

[Ramcius]

Creature, why you think scum lynched Desp over Von?

Going to bookmark this for later. Given current events, I'll need to think if my feelings on this post still holds weight.

So, what you think now about Von, when Thor is caught scum?

I don't get how Thor-scum = Von-scum.

Thor defended Desp, Thor pushed for my lynch, Thor ignored Von, do i make it clear enough? Or you are with Creature on Gingie!scum idea?

[Ramcius]

Thor defended Desp

Thor's defense of Desp was pretty weak, but I can see where you get that. I don't see how that equals Von being scum with Thor.

Thor pushed for my lynch

And? That

might

make a case for you being town. It has nothing to do with Vonflare.

Thor ignored Von

Thor said he was okay with the Von lynch, but had no interest in pushing the wagon. Given that Von is a lurker, it'd make sense that scum Thor would show approval but want to stay far away from the wagon (Remember Mick?). Again, it doesn't establish a connection, as that was a pretty common sentiment.

Or you are with Creature on Gingie!scum idea?

Ginngie's town. Stop trying to create false dichotomies.

i make it very simple - Thor flipping red mean i'm pretty much conf town; who is scum from Von/Trans/Chess in group C? And i expect serious reasoning to accuse Chess or Trans being goon

[Ramcius]

i will lend a hand on Trans - Thor weak defense on Desp indicates scum team suspected Desp being scum PR, so why would goon trans (for same matter me too) pushed group C to lynch Desp in DPI? And he was pushing for Desp day coming to an end too, he didn't switched on me, when he had a chance

And calling Von Mick 2.0 is a stretch, we in D3, we asked him to cooperate plenty of times, and Thor "being ok" with Von lynch says nothing - would you defend him, if he was your scumbuddy or try distance from him without actually scumreading him?

[Ramcius]

Von is scum by PoE

[Ramcius]

if Von is town, doesn't it point at Eli being goon?

[Ramcius]

Because how hard he pushed him and he couldn't push me, because Thor was doing it, both goons on same ML wouldn't be good, also, from what i gathered, Eli was responsible for Mick too? I just saw Eli saying he have no regrets for lurker PL (Mick) and pursuing another lurker PL in Von

[Ramcius]

probably PRs will do kills, in first one it was traitor becoming group mafia, when all group mafia was killed, or it was supposed to, but traitor was lynched before last group mafia

[Ramcius]

you forgetting possible scenario: scum team realized Majiffy is scum PR and let him live

[Ramcius]

well, for starters, he's alive, when he's probably best nk target in group B

[Ramcius]

I'd rather believe scum knew Rauth was PR than they left Majiffy "because he was most suspected person"

Creature, refusing to give read on someone isn't town tell in any way, i find it scumtell, because this way you don't have to choose side

[Ramcius]

Toto, are you ok? if we ML in B, we can't lynch Thor at all till we merge groups

[Ramcius]

Fortunately we won't bother with Group B anymore.

why you say so?

[Ramcius]

cuz we are lynching goons

is it mod confirmed that we don't need lynch scum PRs?

[Ramcius]

traitors dont have a kill

in first game, traitor would kill, if all group mafia died, probably same here

[Ramcius]

what's with you guys? Drunk too much wine during Christmas? We get Thor and then we have lynch in B without risk

[Ramcius]

mafia, i'm really disappointed, you had one job - kill B traitor, and you blew it

[Ramcius]

no, they don't, they still count for wincon and we need lynch them anyway

[Ramcius]

Bye bye SKy!

I hope this is a hammer.

VOTE: Sky Paladin

VOTE: Vax

i like this one more

[Ramcius]

Why are you guys so active leading up to new years.....have we chosen a group yet (give me a break guys)....I'll be active again starting 01/02

i don't remember you doing anything useful in this game, so why we should wait for you now?

[Ramcius]

nonononononono it said L-5 I didn't hammer anyone

you did, congratz