Micro 759: Tarot uPick III - Game Over!

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I get it, you're definitely NOT SCUM.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I also got my first pick, for what it's worth.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

@drealmerz7

https://vocaroo.com/i/s0XW8n1s0nWC

I would prefer that you don't leave voice or video messages. While I personally do enjoy them, they present a serious issue for the forum-based mafia game.
Moderators, for instance, are required to listen to/watch the entirety of every one, to ensure it does not contain any game-breaking content or rules-breaking content.
Other players can not outright quote the material without first listening to it, either.
Video and audio files are uploaded on external servers, which means they may be taken down at any point for any reason, which means some players may have access to info other do not.
Watching/listening takes time to do and also can not be done on all devices.

There's just a lot of issues with using anything but text. Images are even a bit a problem, given the multiple avenues for breaking the game that they present, though they're generally more accepted on-site.

I know your recording here is innocuous, but I had to listen to the whole thing to know, and, while I enjoyed it, I don't want to have to listen to a lot of recordings in the future in order to ensure I'm on top of the content of the game.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

T_T
I didn't mean to cause any issues, just wanted to give a heads up that, personally, as a mod, I've run into some serious issues with players using voice recordings/video.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Images are even a bit a problem, given the multiple avenues for breaking the game that they present

While most images are just uploaded in a joking context, images can also be uploaded with actual game-relevant content readily present in them. In that case, it causes a problem because the images are not hosted on mafiascum and, ergo, if they are taken down from wherever they are hosted, they will no longer be available for all players to view.

Beyond that, though, lots of information can be hidden in an image's file information--it's a form of encrypting information that's against site rules if you do intentionally include game-relevant info in an image's file info, though.

Another thing that comes to mind is when images are a part of a player's personal file sharing folder; this means that any player can follow the image back to its respective imgur or photobucket or whatever folder (provided it's public access) and be able to view other images in that folder, which, of course, can be exploited. There was a game where the mod made images for each user's role PM, but titled the images with the players' names. One curious player simply retitled the image URL with a different player's name and discovered that other player's rolecard image. So, even innocuous things like that can lead to serious issues for a game.

For the most part, though, players tend to use images much less as a content delivery system and it's against site rules to encrypt data, so images almost always fall on the safe side. However, videos/recordings that players themselves make are typically intended as content delivery, so they run risks of causing game issues by design.

Anyway,
Ya'll can just call me Jabarkas.
And the game doesn't 'start' until we've got 8 posted, which I'm not sure we do?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

is that true, jabarkas? are you lazy?

Seeing as my other head hasn't even checked in yet (to be fair, dude lives on the opposite side of the planet),
gonna say yes

I just beat NieR Automata, it was cool, got 100% or whatever. So maybe I should focus on this game more.
-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I think it's more interesting if ya'll answer for me based on what you know about me.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

@Yeti: Man, I hang out on-site for fucking years, never going on hiatus, constantly playing in games and running games and still people treat me like a stranger.
And, nah, I got nothing out of the other answers. Personally, I feel like RQS is NAI and I really don't like the power dynamic it attempts to establish.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Creates a question-asker/question answerer situation, where the person asking the questions is typically in power and establishes a mode of power (ex: why didn't you answer my question? or why did you answer the way you did?) and the people who are answering are generally going to provide answers (or non-answers) that are NAI, but since it's in the scope of the game, they're just lined up to be taken advantage of if anyone fails to give a response that's outright town. While it can get the ball moving in games, I think it's typically an anti-town place to begin with, since players are more likely to disagree based on arbitrary questions/answers and people are likely to be townread/scumread over divisions that only exist because of the question asker/answerer dynamic.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Part of why I said someone else can answer for me is because I'd genuinely like to see how players would present me, though that's kind of a vanity move on my part, and a failed one, given I don't recognize most the names on this playerlist.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I think that you, Keychain, nancy, and Porkens are the only names that I recognize and I only really have fresh meta ideas about you and Porkens, so I'm in a bit of an unusual spot. I guess I'm used to being insulated by people that are familiar with my bullshit.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It is, though both Xiao and I play in ways that can be incredibly offputting to people who scumread folks based on playstyle.
Case in point, just look at the Protomen Blitz game I just ran, where Xiao was nearly lynched D1 for playing off the cuff and giving folks nicknames.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It really just means I've got to step it up and actually deliver, because if I slouch, I can't reliably tell myself, "Oh, Player X will catch the slack," or "They know me, they won't lynch me for this."

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

If you want to ask questions because it will help you play the game, be clear that's your agenda.
However, posing questions as a basis to jumpstart the game is an approach that I don't believe produces reliable results.

I'm not sure that I was voted solely due to my refusal to answer questions; Yeti's vote on me felt more like sticking pressure on me to either answer their question and/or for being slippery about saying other people could answer for me.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I guess, to be sure:

@Yeti:

Why did you vote me?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Actually I'd like to start the game here with some RQS so four questions for everyone borrowed from Regfan:

1) What are your availabilities re: timezone / time of day / posting frequency?
2) What kind of experience do you have with mafia and how does that inform your play?
3) Do you prefer hunting down scum to manipulating town and why?
4) How would you describe your playstyle and is there anything about it you're trying to change this game?

1. I'm always online. Right now, I'm unable to be at the computer from about 4 to 10 PM central time, US.
2. Lots of experience on this site. I usually slack off or luck out. I'm trash at Mafia, imo. I can be a really rude guy when I get upset, too.
3. Hunting scum is a lot of fun, but convincing people you're right is a better skill to have regardless. I prefer stupid gambits as either align.
4. Recently? I've either been totally lackluster worthless or way too aggressive (verbally as well as play-wise) and often play high-risk, low reward.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Sorry for being such a resistant chump about it, though. I need to get my head in the game instead of just commenting theory about everything.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Do you always ask that of all your prey, or do you just like the sound of it?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Actually I'd like to start the game here with some RQS so four questions for everyone borrowed from Regfan:

1) What are your availabilities re: timezone / time of day / posting frequency?
2) What kind of experience do you have with mafia and how does that inform your play?
3) Do you prefer hunting down scum to manipulating town and why?
4) How would you describe your playstyle and is there anything about it you're trying to change this game?

1. Usually 10P.M. - 4A.M. Taiwan time, though I usually at least read bits and pieces during the day when I have breaks at work.
2. Just some games on this site and I don't know.
3. I prefer jackass gambits and gotcha moments because they're stupid and amazing when they work. Usually I'll just try to be a detective and work things out outside of thread.
4. Varies, but it's usually a mixture of annoying and hilarious.

Jabarkas likes the idea of the questions, but thinks they're overall useless in terms of determining alignment.

- XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

@NotKnown15:

It's less a townread and more of me joking off of Drealmerz claiming town really hard.
I'm going to level with you, though; if I had no Porkens meta, I'd be scumreading him, too, but him getting really into the theme and doing these readings and generally not providing much in the way of helpful elaboration is really not alignment indicative for him as a player. If we pressure him over it and it's unanimous, he'll play ball, but I don't find what he's doing to be too detrimental to the game state.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm hesitant to go into liftoff and make any real judgment calls on anyone until we've got everyone present, accounted for, and playing. I feel as though the rather vocal amount of players we've got here right now are more likely town than not and that clever scum would just lurk out for awhile and allow bad blood to brew between the talkers, then swipe in when wagons begin, if that makes sense.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'd say that I'm fairly engaged. At the very least, I'm reading every post and responding to what I feel needs it.
You seem to be pretty quick on prodding players and trying to get movement happening, which is cool. What's your beef with porkens? You say 'iffy feelings', but I'd like you to go into more detail, if you can.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Y'think that applies to life or just this game?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

(also, on the d-low, thanks, I kinda love getting readings)

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Thanks for the novella.

I'm not saying there's currently issues of town versus town, but that there are 206 posts and 172 of those are currently made by 5 of the 9 players present. Half of those are made by two of the players present.
This isn't me calling the less vocal half of the playerbase scum, but instead saying that focusing on the content of those outspoken players will only continue to focus content creation by and around those players, which isn't helpful for looking at the game as a whole.
In the post you quoted, I do say that I'm leaning the more vocal folks as town and less vocal folks as not town, because that's what makes sense to me.

If possible, I'd like to generate pressure on lower content players.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Dunkerdoodles would be my kill--the quick townreads on Porkens and Drealmerz look like posturing more than informed-from-thread decision making.

I'm saying that clever scum would lurk because that's what clever scum do on this site nowadays. In a situation where vocal players are only really engaging with vocal players, the people who skirt around that, regardless of alignment, tend to survive longer.
I don't think we need to quiet louder voices. I'm obviously still posting and engaging with you. I'm suggesting we generate more content from everyone in the game, if possible, because it makes it easier to actually read everyone in the game.
Well-played lurk-scum step out of lurking in order to wagon town, though I have seen games with extremely low town activity and scum playing purposefully to keep that activity low so that every lynch was a deadline lynch. It's not a fun way to play the game, imo.

Games will always have more vocal players, but this game is 9 pages in with less than a third of the players contributing half the pages. When I say that I'd like to hear more voices and I'd like to resign really putting down hard reads until I do, it's because I feel like I don't have a full picture of the game and if I engage with what I do have, then my focus is limited and that there's a real possibility it may be limited in a way that scum are influencing.

P-EDIT:
I don't think I can win this game all on my own, but also, I probably should take the reading to apply to life, too. So both!

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'd protect Porkens and shoot either LUV or Drealmerz. Probably LUV at this point.
I don't know that there are definitive points I could give you for 'what is enough', but definitely by D2 with flips to look at, everyone's equally worth going after in my eyes. My hesitance/caution was solely from an early D1 situation, especially as mod who's modded several games with the longest D1's in the history of the site.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I have no clue what your posts mean, Acid.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Why LUV over drealmer?

While drealmerz' initial "guess I rolled town, hahaha, must be a curse, wish I was scum, lol, too bad I am town" schtick had me rolling my eyes, the tone of his play reminds me a lot of previous games I've been in where he ended up as town.

Little Uzi, however, despite being among the top posters, has very little content and has actively been disengaging without giving a ton of reason why.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

v = village = town
w = wolf = mafia

if it's not that idk what you're not getting

also I feel dreal is obvious town partially due to that and don't get particular feelings about Nancy due to it

That helps clear it up but could you explain where you're conjuring a lot of these townreads from?
I hardly think I'm confident to call anyone outright town at this point.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Nancy, you asked me, out of the five top posters, who I would kill (and they had to flip mafia), and exclude you.
That lets me choose between
Myself
Drealmerz
Little Uzi Vert
Porkens

I'm not going to choose myself, which really leaves me with only three realistic options to pick.
It should come as no surprise that I'd choose Little Uzi, given that I've been leaning town on Porkens and Drealmerz before you asked the question.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It varies (depending on my level of engagement/frustration).

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

V, what's the correlation?

Dunk, I love it! Makes us all seem more sophisticated.

Nancy's droppin a lotta words on me, so I gotta do it back in kind.

@Yetichain:

Why does being guarded make you think porkens is scum, though? Where's the scum motivation to be guarded there?

Time to put my money where my mouth is.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

uh hi
do i know you?
i've probably played with you i just don't remember sorry

My main account is Varsoon. I mostly moderate games.
I don't recognize your username at all, though.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm not a fan of discouraging people to use their vote; it's the only realistic pressure that a player can exert.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Nando and Not Clown seem tryhard to this Jabarkas. Maybe just how they play, maybe attempting to pass themselves off as town by saying a lot.
Piglet and Dinnernoodles can be town for now.
This Jabarkas is ok with other Jabarkas’ vote atm

-XL

Spoiler:

Before anyone asks, yes, Jabarkas must speak in Jabarkas-person. Varsoon never remembers.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It's because LUV had very little in the way of content despite being in the top five posters. A lot of what he did post was flighty and non-committal.
Then he replaced out.
I'm not really keen on giving a replacement a pass, myself.
I feel like, yes, you're not LUV, but you should still have to exonerate your slot.
Part of me is actually more critical of you for asking why people were scumreading LUV--it seems like something easy enough to find out (just read the last few pages, or any post where someone voted the slot) and it also strikes me as asking for a roadmap of what to do to appease people who are still scumreading the slot. For instance, now that you know I am scumreading your slot for being flight/non-committal, you might hope to turn that read around through direct engagement and committing to a wagon.

Spoiler Alert: I won't townread you for that alone.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It's because this game lacked any real conflict or passion, imo.
Whenever I catch up on 5+ pages in a game, I always gloss unless there's a really serious conflict happening, and, even then, if it's too verbose, I still skim it.

Basically, this game's been pretty toothless so far.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Now that the games are over and I can reference them, compare Porkens play here to his play in Paint Mafia Mania:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73434
and Maplewood Village:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73801

The way Porkens has committed to a gimmick here, coupled with the tone and directness of his non-gimmick posts, gives me townvibes since I was witness to similar in those aforementioned games.
That said, I don't really have any scum-Porkens games I've experienced firsthand to hold up to it, so, /shrugs.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

@Yeti: I'm saying the silliness is definitely just Porkens-indicative for people who might be thinking otherwise and that, when he's not being silly, his tone strikes me as town-serious.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Shit, you saw through my traitor softclaim!

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

...either that or I'm making a really vague reference to the Firebringer alt that always uses Toothless as their avatar.

I'm not even sure anymore.
It's the Buy Pizza meme all over again.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Jabarkas not Varsoon--important thing to know. Also, different size game and players Jabarkas not familiar with.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Fair enough.
You think Uzi over acid?

Acids posts have been worser in average I think.

Acid's just as bad but doesn't have nearly the same postcount.
Curious to see what Uzi's replace does.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Just as bad how?

Sparse and non-committal, though it's as if Acid is a non-entity, whereas LUV was actively dodgy and LUV's replace was one-note so far.

@Yetichain:

Ah, well, I definitely meant the latter. Like, you asked for clarification on what I meant and the latter is clarification on what I meant. Jabarkas doesn't always words good.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Ay man, nothing's pissed me off that much this game.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

VOTE: acidphoenix

So, are you planning on playing the game, or...

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

viewtopic.php?p=9802614#p9802614

content tonight or tomorrow hopefully; sorry for lack thereof so far

l2read

Vote's staying until you nut up and make good on that promise
lr2mafia

I am very tired and not capable of putting out ~words~ but not seeing anything to make me think that Varsoon/Yeti/northsidegal doesn't contain the team here. acid votes are very ??? in that I haven't seen any reasoning put forth for why he's mafia other than "not present" which is super unconvincing, don't think he's likely to flip mafia at all.

Nancy, are you unaware of how voting pressure works?
Because if you legitimately are; I really want you to understand.
Acid doesn't have any posts that help me read their alignment.
I'm voting there because I'm hoping that the threat of being closer to being lynched will encourage them to engage with the game and create content that will make it easier to determine his alignment one way or another.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Like, holy shit, am I the only motherfucker in this game who knows how to play mafia and actually wants to play this game? Because every one of you chumps is dialing in the most lackluster performance possible.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Literally if I had a goddamn infinite vig shot, I'd just shoot all of you.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I've been lackluster because my energy is spent elsewhere, sorry. Am sure it'll change before long.

Am not really into pressure voting and mostly find it to be a smokescreen but I get the thought behind it, I can understand the vote better if that's what you're doing.

Explain to me how pressuring a player to produce alignment indicative content is a smokescreen.

v, I am just skimming a bit atm because

Yeah, you and everyone else in the game.
It's really hard to care about this shit when no one else seems to.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

How about a 250 word minimum content post or else get lynched?

While that dips into policy-lynch territory (which DOES offer players a smokescreen/easy excuse to wagon other players), it would be a good place to start. I'm not thinking people are going to jump into this game with a fully informed strong readslist, but, fuck, post

something

, y'know?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

VOTE: jabarkas

recent posts are lamist. jabarkas' push has a lot of bark but no bite – nothing is actually accomplished by what he's doing other than projecting the image of "i'm frustrated with the lack of actitvity". explicitly saying that you're pressure voting someone doesn't mean anything, and pushing against lurkers is a great way to look like you're contributing while really not accomplishing much.

Glad to see you taking the bait of "Look at me! I am doing something now! I'm voting you! ahahah!" Trash.
Let me explain how off-base you are:
1. Expressing frustration with lack of activity while actively voting an inactive player is a call for action and a push to get that player and others to post. Obviously fucking worked, as your post is indicative of it.
2. "Explicitly saying you're pressure voting someone doesn't mean anything" -- In some cases, this can be true, but in the case of expressing that my vote exists to put a player closer to lynch and will stay there until they produce content that convinces me they aren't scum; that's a FUCKING VOTE, that's the only way in which I can operate towards my goddamn wincon, and expressing the pressure dynamic in this situation does not mitigate the reality of that pressure. There's this stupid fuckoff idea that 'pressure votes' are not votes intended to lynch a player--they can be if players mean them that way, but I fully intend for this vote to lead to either a lynch or a production of content that clears a player within a reasonable doubt.
3. Pushing lurkers is the only fucking option in this game as literally 7/10 of the game have less posts than me and, I'd argue, only nancy has a comparable amount of content. To me, you are all lurkers. Furthermore, this is the only game I'm playing in and I'm not moderating anything right now--I refresh this game every ten minutes or so, and seeing no one post anything is incredibly frustrating. Of course I'm going to make a push and try to get the game moving.

I can see where you could be coming from (if your joindate is reflective of your relative mafia and on-site experience) because a lot of the empty platitudes you've championed here are the kind of things that sound good to rally behind, but that doesn't exonerate you as town nor condemn you as scum. At least, I'm grateful that you're doing something.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I've expressed what I'm voting the slot and expecting to get from it--in the same way that you might vote a slot and ask it a question (in order to justify?/inform the vote), I've expressed the situation from which my vote's arisen and why it continues to exist where it does.

I get where you're coming from, but couldn't it be just as much of a 'smokescreen' to vote a player and just conjure questions for the purposes of seeming town for the vote? I could easily ask acid plenty of questions about the game, but that'd be contrary to my point in pushing him as it'd
1. Be leading (as it would seek to make his first content drop adhere to where I'm directing attention)
2. Not be informed whatsoever by anything acid has done so far, as there is no content from which I can really base informed and interrogative questions behind.

If anything, taking meaningless questions behind my vote here WOULD be LAMIST, imo.

Though I do get where you're coming from and I believe that's a fairly reasonable standard to hold when there is more content to play around and more stuff in a player's iso to suss out/question.

I will hold, however, that a vote always have the same mechanical value of putting a player one vote closer to lynch, no matter what. If you want to argue that empty votes reduce the rhetorical thrust of a wagon, sure, but I do not think that my vote and expressed expectations fall nearly in the same realm.

And it's okay if personal life is dragging you from the game. If it's serious, I'd hate to see you replace out because you've been really pleasant and actually have served as one of the better guiding voices in this game so far.
-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

@Yetichain: I don't see that the meaning is changed significantly, just your interpretation of it which, hey, that's the point of elaboration, is it not?
I don't know why Xiao's posted all of, like, one or two times, though he's not nearly as vocal a player as I am. I can give him a bit of a shakeup and tell him to engage with the game if you want, but, y'know, I'm here now, so why even deflect like that to my hydra partner. In fact, why even say something like, "Is your hydra buddy around? Are they half as scummy as you?"

Also, you're literally fucking wrong about the 'raging about the gamestate' bullshit that you're putting out, because it's very obvious within just the last two pages, based on my actions and the reactions of others, that the game state HAS changed dramatically. So, y'know, maybe don't literally deny the reality of the situation in order to spout a platitude to defend a vote you have and give platform to the replace-in who's parroting you and yes-manning your wagon.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

If you shouldn't be playing the game, replace out and let someone who does have the time to enjoy and engage with the game to fill the slot. If your real life is busy, don't let this game be a distraction from more important things--you're doing yourself, all the players, and the moderator a disservice if that's the case.

Again, the mention of deadline comes up as a justification for producing either no content or weak content--it is decidedly against town interests to push critical decisions closer to a deadline. It means that players have less information to base their judgments off of and, often, deadline lynches do not catch scum. This is coming from a moderator who's seen tons of deadline lynches in his own games and others.

As much as you'd like to take some high-ground here with my post 'not inducing you into action,' that's literally untrue, as your post 383 is entirely composed of engagement with my posts. Had I not made those posts, then you would not have acted the way you did, nor written the things you did, as the things you wrote are literally a response to the posts of mine in question and your vote, assumably, grows from the concerns voiced there. Why do you insist that my post did not induce you into action? Why is that an important note to lead on, for you?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

...especially by people who stand on the faulty platform that 'pushing lurkers is scummy'.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I know how it can be, but saying "That's how games are; no one really posts anything until 72 hours before deadline hits" reinforces a site meta where that's the case. As a player and moderator who hates that shit, I'm going to actively stand against it when I have the chance to.
I know things will form, which is why that's hardly my focus now. The game is happening now. People are voting. There's content to engage with. No one's got an excuse not to be a part of things now besides RL distractions.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Please don't be an enabler, man.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Like, what are your thoughts on the game and current gamestate?
Why haven't you really laid down any comments on me and/or Northside/Yeti?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

No, I hate pickles.
It'll come around, but it mad stresses me out that it'll come around too late.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm always itt.



New players are somehow always inducted into this notion that pushing lurkers in a slow-moving earlygame is bad. Confuses me. Pushing lurkers can be bad at times, but given this game state, as I've stated before, there are hardly any other options but to push someone who is lurking, as nearly all players seem to be.

Why are you townreading Key over NSG?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

nsg a. has the disadvantage of being also luv's slot and b. key gives me strong town gut feelings and nsg.. doesn't

why are those two a relevant comparison iyo

Both are pushing me, but I feel like nsg is doing so under pretenses that are perceivably just noob-town/naive. Key's push, however, relies on outright denying the reality of the situation at hand and is also coming from a more site-experienced hydra. Their play feels much more motivated with intent to scum-paint me rather than a realistic reaction to my play, as I could argue NSG's is.

My current conundrum is if NSG actually believes in what they're putting forth or if they're just using a level-1 (ostensibly town) approach as an excuse for leading a wagon on what would flip as the first mislynch of the game.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

hi
i'm here and ready to talk

Provide reads, with explanations for why you're reading the ways you are (even one sentence per read is fine) as well as a vote.


-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

kinda want to scumread nancy

Explain?
I'd like you to explain your reads about me/Northside, too, but more interested in how you're coming to this conclusion on nancy.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Key's push, however, relies on outright denying the reality of the situation at hand and is also coming from a more site-experienced hydra

can you link yourself casing this pls

Yeti's post 378 and my reply here: viewtopic.php?p=9803148#p9803148

@DunkerDoodle:

So do you think it's scum for nancy to stay out of the conflicts happening? Do you feel like being not involved in something that's TvT makes someone scum? I don't really see her inciting the conflict, but she doesn't seem to be doing much to dispel it either, so, I don't know. Though, honestly, the same avoidance could be noted about a lot of the slots in this game that haven't weighed in one way or another--why does this make nancy, specifically, scummy?

Can you show some of the posts that you think nk15 wrote that are fabricated/sketchy?

P.S. it's okay, I've been playing on this site for years and I'm still awful at it.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

VOTE: Not Known15

Why do you need Acid's full roleclaim?
How does getting a full roleclaim from Acid benefit town and not just fucking give scum a roadmap for where to shoot?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

VOTE: jabarkas

recent posts are lamist. jabarkas' push has a lot of bark but no bite – nothing is actually accomplished by what he's doing other than projecting the image of "i'm frustrated with the lack of actitvity". explicitly saying that you're pressure voting someone doesn't mean anything, and pushing against lurkers is a great way to look like you're contributing while really not accomplishing much.

This seems forced like you’re trying too hard to make sure your vote looks like it comes from a town mindset.

Hmm hmm. This feels out of nowhere. Raging over the gamestate does nothing to change it, voting a lurker does very little. Is your hydra buddy around? Are they half as scummy as you?


-Key

PEdit: gosh, there's some ripples in the water. I approve of the Jabarkas vote for now.

In contrast to this which seems much more natural.

Jabarkas’d say for the time being Spaghettirain likely town, Southfrontguy likely scum.

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

VOTE: Acidphoenix
I want your full roleclaim. Now.

The fuck?

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

So how does them FULLY CLAIMING AND OUTING THEIR ROLE quench your suspicions?
If you have alignment-indicative suspicions, explain what they are right now and explain why a fully claim would allow you to confirm that Acid is scum.
If your suspicions are that Acid has more than just a neighborizing role, digging for more information to be shared publicly is scummy as fuck and presenting that as some sort of alignment-sorting approach rather than you just rolefishing is not helpful to town.

So, answer my question;
How does getting a full roleclaim from Acid benefit town and not just fucking give scum a roadmap for where to shoot?
Then, I reiterate;
How does them FULLY CLAIMING AND OUTING THEIR ROLE quench your suspicions?
If you have alignment-indicative suspicions, explain what they are right now and explain why a fully claim would allow you to confirm that Acid is scum.

P-EDIT:
Can you explain your possibly-scumread on Porkens, too?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NorthSideGal
Please do not out anything else about your own role.
The fact that we all have roles is not important--almost every game I've designed has been a role madness game in which every player has a role.
Setups where every player has a power role are designed around those roles being hidden. Games that are well designed always punish town for claiming their roles early.
If, by design, there are four identical roles in the same group of town, would you lynch all four of the people who claimed that kind of role?
This is NOT a normal setup. This is NOT an open setup. The rules that apply to gaming around roles in those do not apply equally.

If you bold your questions to Porkens, I'm sure they'll get to them--though question dodging is one of the weakest criticisms to make; I miss shit in games all the time.
Furthermore, LUV's slot hasn't flipped scum, so scumreading Porkens based on an associative tell is also weak.
Hyperbole =/= scum.
I'm not seeing Porkens scum, even with your explanations. Can you explain where Porken's refusal is clear scum-oriented refusal to answer and not just missing your questions? Can you explain how the exaggeration in 334 makes Porkens scum and not just using NAI hyperbole?

I know I'm being critical of you here, but I do believe you're town, especially based on your role claim and how you believe someone having a similar role makes them scum, but you really should not have claimed/softclaimed. Now, there's a pretty good chance that we've got two outed possible protective roles, which either means that you're both a large amount of our power or scum have a way to get around protections.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Looking at it, it is weird that he'd specify 4 words but then write 'pages', though did you ask why Porkens said it was pages when it wasn't?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

So I'd probably write that off as him just exaggerating and moving on, but, it's worth probing;

Porkens:

What's the deal with saying it'd been pages and then not following up when NK15 asked you further questions?

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

what was the dramatic shift in the game state, and what was the reality that keychain was denying? how was i parroting keychain? she's hardly been pushing you as scum very seriously – i didn't even realize that anyone else was voting you. also of note is that i'm pretty sure me and keychain have about the same number of completed games on-site, despite the differences in joindate.

The shift I'm referring to is a huge one of game momentum, where there were no informed and urgent wagons being pushed, to people making votes with justification. We're now in a gamestate where wagons have actually accumulated more than a single pressure/prodding/RVS sort of vote. Players are actually grappling with the content other players are putting down.

The reality that Keychain was denying was that my posts where I am 'raging' did not have an effect on the momentum of the game, moving it towards the gamestate described above. Yetichain was presenting my play as futile whining and possibly forced LAMIST AtE, when the reality was that I was actively pressuring lower content players into engaging with the game while using rhetoric to push everyone towards more active engagement. It has very clearly worked, because after I have done so, you voted for me based on those posts, Yetichain doubled down on me, Acid came into the game with the most posts they've had since and (unfortunately) softclaimed, NK15 responded to that soft, Dunkerdoodles elaborated on reads, Porkens directly addressed an issue that was happening between slots, etc.

I saw a parallel between your vote justification and where Yetichain left a vote on me for reasons that felt like they were NAI (not alignment-indicative), such as being frustrated with the gamestate and pushing for more active play. It seemed that you were reinforcing a lot of what Yetichain had laid foundation for, though there was a distinct difference in the way that you went about pushing your vote/justifying it on me (which I've already talked about in regards to the reason I think your vote/play is more likely to come from town).

I didn't realize you have similar game completes--I had only been thinking about time spent on-site and the fact I've been in games Keychain has been in.

I know how it can be,

but saying "That's how games are; no one really posts anything until 72 hours before deadline hits" reinforces a site meta where that's the case

. As a player and moderator who hates that shit, I'm going to actively stand against it when I have the chance to.

who said anything to that effect?

Every time someone says that they deadline is a week long and they can afford to wait to post reinforces the site meta notion that (especially D1) games should be played all the way to the deadline and that it's alright to be sparse on play/content creation while the deadline is not immediately impending. It's frustrating to see drealmerz, someone who is actively against the effect longer deadlines have in games, use a longer deadline as an excuse not to be engaged with a game from the start.

My current conundrum is if NSG actually believes in what they're putting forth or if they're just using a level-1 (ostensibly town) approach as an excuse for leading a wagon on what would flip as the first mislynch of the game.

i really don't like this sentence. it's hard to put into words the reasons, but i think everyone should just look at it for a bit.

it feels like such a non-statement. like, "my current conundrum is whether this player is telling the truth, in which case they would be town, or if they're lying, in which case they would be scum."

also, why are you still voting me if you scumread keychain more than me? or was there something that i missed?

It's a pretty straightforward statement. I'm unable to accurately tell if you are being genuine with your rhetoric and push or if you realized that I would be a wagon that you, as scum, could adopt an early vote on and justify (more or less) leading a wagon on despite the fact my flip will heavily draw lynch-attention to your slot. It's not as simple as "what if they are lying?"; it's a statement that I am having difficulty seeing how you can continue to justify your vote one me and curious how much of that is motivated by either a scum or town approach. By voting you and continuing to suss out exactly why you are voting me, I can get a better idea of exactly what that motivation may be, and I have. Yes, I still read Keychain's vote as much more likely to be coming from a scum point of view, but I'm currently figuring your slot out because you're here/engaged and because you've been much quicker to town-justify your vote than Keychain has their's, which is something that my hydra partner has also noticed.

In fact, you asking why I'm not voting Keychain over you only further thickens that conundrum for me, because I'm not sure if you've realized what I've mentioned in the previous paragraph (I'm suspect of you both but more keen on sorting you right now) or if you're actively setting Keychain up as a fall guy when my wagon flips.

So, in short; why are you still voting for me? Do you understand where I am coming from about why Keychain's vote on me is a scummy vote and, if so, why are you on a wagon that also features such a poor vote?

-V

quote tag fixed ~f

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Aw man, I messed up my quote tags there.

@Mod:

Can you fix the quote tags in post 472 so that it properly reflects that everything between Northsidegal's quote of my post 426 and the hanging [/quote] box is properly reflective of NSG's post 470?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Aight then.
Nevermind that most the players in this game have 2017 joindates, homie.
Or that I'm trying to actually figure shit out rather than just making easy newb-lynch pushes.
But ayy fuck me, right?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Like, if you're going to jump on my back and give me shit for fucking playing the game and accuse me of masterminding or some dumb bullshit like that when, otherwise, no one was really fucking playing the game, fuck you.
Seriously, legitimately, fuck you.
Fuck anyone who thinks it's alignment-indicative to want to play the fucking game of mafia.
Keep that shit up and I'm just going to replace out or some shit, I can't handle that kind of backwards bullshit.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I've literally been pushing two players so far and neither of those pushes have been with full intent to lynch, but, rather, using my vote as pressure while I try to figure out the game.
It's really annoying, as a player, to sign up for a game, then because I want to play the game, to be potentially removed from that game because people think wanting to play the game is scummy.
That shit drives me up a wall.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Trust you about what?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm not going to, solely because it'd be detrimental to town, annoying for the game at hand, and because I am really hype about this game's theme, this game, and hydra'ing with my buddy Xiao.
Like I said, a lot of what annoys me is being paraded as someone to remove from the game for wanting to play the game. If the lynch goes through, I no longer get to enjoy the game actively, and that's the whole reason I'm here in the first place.
I can take being lynched over poor play or because people legitimately think that my play is scum play and my lynch helps solve the game, but lynching me just because I want to play the game and I'm trying to amp the game engagement/momentum is really, really, really annoying.

What's more is that Porkens knows, for a fact, that he can rile me up into playing in a way that's detrimental to my wincon (as either alignment), as in the recent Paint Mafia Mania, I was scum and faked a guilty against him because I hated the way he was playing and engaging and in Maplewood Village, I was very vocally outspoken against his approach to the game and how he was engaging with players, so much so to the point that it skirted what should catch a ban for verbal abuse. Porkens has very fresh meta of knowing how riled up I can get and it makes me really, really uncomfortable that he'd push me like this and then just ghost with a 'trust me' bit.

Anyway, Northsidegal, can you answer the questions I posed to you in post 472? I'll restate them here;
Why are you still voting for me? Do you understand where I am coming from about why Keychain's vote on me is a scummy vote and, if so, why are you on a wagon that also features such a poor vote?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm saying that Porken's reasons for voting me strike me as the second rather than the first and Porkens not asking me questions/engaging with my slot and, when asked to elaborate, he's just dodged doing so, is evidence of that.
I've come around to thinking your vote on me is coming from a legitimate scumread and you've been more than thorough about why you scumread my slot and, while I disagree with your judgment, I don't think you're scum for pushing me in the way you have, so;
VOTE: Yetichain

As of now, the only votes on me other than yours strike me as incredibly bad votes and the only reasons I'm not lighting Porkens up is because I'm worried about how much that'd implode this game right now and because I suspect he actually

does

have something more to his push rather than just jumping on the leading wagon and purposefully inciting me.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

NK15 claimed a god damn protective role, Dunkerdoodles. Why does it surprise you that no one is voting the D1 protective role claim?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

same with nk15 ^

i'm not sure if it does or not but i think so

Please don't roleclaim or try to outguess the mod on the setup.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

If it's not role-related, then what is it?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

also acid never claimed prot as far as i can see
can someone point out where he softed it if he really did

Are you sorting a protective role right now?

i may or may not be

part b. is the important part of that and there's a very large chance i'm softing a neighborizer

He was kind of vague about it, so Jabarkas doesn’t know what Not Clown was cc’ing

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I kind of hate your vague 'casing' and the fact you'll double down with being clear, but, lol, not right now, gotta spend some time to make sure you sound real town when you explain your scum push.
Maybe instead of casing me out, you can address the questions and comments addressed to you, then you could maybe weigh in on any one of the dozen other things happening in this game rather than trying to recoup game momentum into an anti-Jabarkus push.


-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

My frustration at being voted for playing the game came specifically as a response from Porkens' vote on me, the third vote on me, which put me at L-2, and, as far as I was aware, was a vote on me for simply playing the game.
The fact that you're claiming you are being thorough, yet missed BOTH the amount of votes on me as wells as what my argument was in response to, and the fact that you're calling it a 'hissy fit' already tells me that you're beginning this wall from a place of uninformed bias.

As of that post 375, I did already have fairly informed reads on the active players. That should have been fairly obvious by my posts, as well. I'd softed townreads on Porkens, Drealmerz, and Nancy at the very least, while expressing scumreads on you, Acid, and Northsidegal/LUV. The only players I hadn't outright sorted one way or another by that time were NK15 and Dunkerdoodles, who you'd see I interacted/engaged with later and have since come to an informed read on. You continuing to wagon me for what you say is "pass(ing) up opportunities to engage, and zeroing in on a place where you're least likely to get anything" is very obviously untrue, even as of post 370, but definitely as of now. Were you not aware of my reads being this informed? How could you not be given how outspoken I am? Is it not clear that I've been engaging with these other slots since then, and have come to fruitful conclusions about them based on our interactions/their posting? Why are you continuing to press this envelope of Jabarkas not focusing on other, active players and instead pushing an 'easy push'? Why do you consider my push against Acid (or even NSG) as 'easy' pushes, when neither of them were made with full intent to lynch, and instead were largely for pressure because those players were ones playing in a way I didn't understand and couldn't determine alignment from?

I don't appreciate your projection to me of 'denying reality' and using the word 'literally', both of which are things that apply to my criticism of your slot and are very evident in my posts. For evidence, the words 'reality' and 'reality' both show up in my ISO 7 times, with 'literally' being used four whole times between posts 390 and 394 and the phrase 'denying the reality of the situation' used as a phrase only when I am talking about Yetichain in posts 390 and 426. It's evident that post 390 must have struck a chord with you, not just because you directly quote it in your 'casing' against me that looks to be more information than analysis, but given your response, as I have proven here, is untrue, but also is filled with discrediting phrases such as "you're lucky you got what you did," "just because you threw an absolute hissy and claimed you were somehow being persecuted," "raging about the gamestate bullshit," "You're not making anything happen," "don't get your knickers in a twist," and so on. It feels as though you're coming from a place of frustration and inability to understand/dismissal of my play, but I don't see very many questions from you trying to figure out why I might be playing like this. If anyone's not scumhunting, it may be you. Where's your engagement with the other players? Why tunnel me like this? Why not ask me questions to try to come to a more informed read instead of just outright damning me in the ways you have?

I find it a bit strange, because it seems that people who have voted me are either of the Yetichain/NSG camp of "You're not making anything happen" (despite evidence to the contrary) or of the Porken's camp of claiming that I am "mastermining." To further highlight the awkwardness of the pushes I see on me, Yetichain, you yourself even ask here, "In the meantime, why don't you scumhunt instead of focusing on scrapping with players scumreading you?" And, yet, you're scumreading me for scumhunting outside of those people when I was voting and engaging with Acidphoenix. I think it's perfectly valid to raise concerns about people voting for me, because I have information that they are voting for town. If you're a cop with an inno on someone, wouldn't you also suspect people who vote for your innocent, especially when the logic they're using to back up their votes doesn't seem sound or town-motivated?

And the criticism that I'm expecting the activity of a blitz? When I begin to complain around 376 about it, that's only 376 posts within over 5 days of the game being open. A minitheme that I just joined on-site is currently about to hit that many posts in just two days. But since that's ongoing, I'm more at leisure to talk about games I've just finished. Maplewood Village (an unfair comparison, perhaps, due to being a larger game) was at 1500 posts around 5 days in. Paint Mafia Mania was at over 600 posts around 5 days in. But let's actually look at a Blitz that I clearly have experience with--the only Blitz I've been a part of within over a year's time (probably the only Blitz I've been a part of on this site, ever)--the game that I ran, Protomen Mafia. At 5 days in, we had a lynch already (obviously) and were at over 1500 posts.
So, no, I'm clearly not expecting the 'activity' of a blitz. I'm just expecting what is normal on-site levels of activity. Moreover, my criticism is far less about activity, and far more about the generation of content, something that a lot of players in this game, even the active ones, seem to still be struggling with.

I appreciate you taking the time to parse out more of what's informing your scumread on me, as well as using tags to direct to posts and so on, but I still believe that you're coming from a scum point of view and floundering on giving reasonable rationale for voting for me. The way that you've conducted yourself, especially in post 510, strikes me as projecting, reaching, insisting on untrue things, discrediting, and, overall, as a failure to take the time to actually engage with my slot rather than damn me for playing in a way that's incomprehensible to you. That, coupled with your intense focus on me independent of everything else happening in the game, makes me feel as though you're more likely to be scum than not. I don't see how a town player sees a player playing in a frustrated, 'thrashing', 180-turning manner and votes that player without trying to at least ask several questions to come to some sort of informed understanding of why that player is acting in the way they are. I don't see why a town player would insist on an untrue representation of the game reality in order to continue to justify their vote, rather than admitting the place where they are wrong. I don't see a town player making use of this much discrediting rhetoric when casing a scumread. As for the IIoA (information-instead-of-analysis) and projecting stuff, that's largely NAI (not alignment indicative) to me, but coupled with the rest of it, I could see how scum, who's now caught a vote and been called out on exactly what they were doing, would react in that way when tipped off balance.

So, for now, I'll continue to vote you, because I don't understand where you're coming from and how you can continue this wagon on me given the gamestate.
I'll still answer other people's questions and be engaging with others; don't take this as some death-tunnel, but, rather, that you're my most informed scumread at the moment.
If you actually have questions for me, feel free to ask them, but I'd like you to address at least some of the concerns I raise in this post.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

D'oh, that should read that the words 'reality' and 'literally' show up 7 times in my ISO.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

This Jabarkas still thinks Spaghetti seems more town, but Varbarkas thinks they’re scum, so the vote is fine.
That said Jabarkas does think that the activity IS low compared to most games Jabarkas has played and Varbarkas’ frustrations are normal.
(That said, I acknowledge that I haven’t been very active as this past week has been busy for me. Apologies to Varsoon for having to roll solo, but I’m trying to hop back into the game.)

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I got my first choice but also my other choices, but it seemed like my first choice was most prominent/told to me first, if that makes sense?

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

pontificate

On the contrary, though, I feel that NSG has expressed their positions pretty thoroughly. Certainly moreso than anyone else you listed.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Have you played other games with her during December?
Tons of activity has been lower on-site because of the holiday season.
Regardless, I think meta used in that way is less indicative of alignment than people act like it is. Activity can fluctuate wildly from game to game based on personal circumstance.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'd really prefer a Yetichain wagon though.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Could you elaborate, or are you just jumping on the largest wagon because...?


-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm fairly certain literally every player has voiced a willingness to vote me/scumread me so far today.
So, like, let's just get that shit over, I guess.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I really wanted to actually get to play this game, but it's cool if literally everyone's like "No that dude is scum" even though it's really obvious that I'm not.
Like, fuck it, I can't fight the whole world, y'know?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

If you guys wanna talk about something less depressing, like video games or some shit, I'm here, too.


-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

For real, I typed out a huge response to Nancy's proposition that I'm scum, but then I realize I did the same thing refuting Yetichain and not only did Yeti ignore most of it, no one else cared to comment on the discoveries I'd made or what I'd revealed about his push on me.
It's like people in this game don't care about reading what I had to write and want to just push me for whatever insubstantial NAI reasons they can conjure.
So, like, fuck it, if you guys aren't actually going to read my posts and you're not actually going to engage with me or ask me anything, then lynch the fuck out of me so I can stop stressing out over this game.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Porkens, why do you scumread either of those slots?

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

If the literal reason not to engage with someone is that they're somewhat verbose, that doesn't make them scum.

Regardless, when I'm addressing someone, I usually pose questions. It's pretty obvious to look for question marks, right?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It's gone now.
I don't get how they see my play as coming from scum, rather than not being alignment indicative.
Porken's vote on me, at the time, felt like a vote on me for playing. I later thought it was a part of some gambit and leaned a little into it. Now I'm not so sure why he voted me at all.

@Porkens:

Why did you vote me and hit me with that whole "Trust me" line?

Have you watched games where, when I'm playing, I'm not modding a game or playing solo in anything else?
I'm currently only in one other game on-site and I'm hydra'd in that one.

P-Edit:

@Northsidegal:

I'm not saying you're scumreading me for posting lots of content, but you've expressed that, while you've read my posts, you could see how others might not. I see people not responding/engaging with my content, yet dropping and/or maintaining votes on me--Porkens, Yeti, and Dunkerdoodles have all felt that way for one reason or another.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Absolutely.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

That's probably the most explained and honest readslist anyone's given all game, if that helps.
Nancy's kinda asked a lot of what I was gonna--I was curious about the vote flipping, too.

Following up on being narcissistic; it's more that I really love who I am, but I don't have a huge ego about everything. I can be confident more often than not, but I'll acknowledge when I'm bad at something or if I have a shortcoming. Like, I don't think I'm very good at playing mafia. I either can't find points of engagement or I get way too invested and it causes problems. I think the games I make are cool, though, and I would argue are some of the best designed theme games of mafia ever run on the internet, so, I hope that gives you an idea of things?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Oh. I'm also ENFP or ENFJ on the myer's briggs personality test thing. Kinda depends when you ask me the questions.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Well this game wears me out.

Unvote

Why unvote now?
What about Spaghetti?
Or Northfrontguy?
Do either/both of them seem town to you?

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm fairly certain literally every player has voiced a willingness to vote me/scumread me so far today.
So, like, let's just get that shit over, I guess.

-V

Nah, dawg, at least one of the cats on us is scum . Let's get their shit over with instead.
(Prolly not Dinnernoodles as his activity is mirroring his recent town game with me, plus he doesn't seem to be making any plays from a scum mindset)

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I don't like Porkens frequently revoting, but they have a credible reason for that(scumreading nearly the whole town).
Well, I have seen many scumreads on Northsidegal/Little Uzi Vert
And they are my top scumread.
Acid, now acid lurking more and what they are doing remind me a bit of my first game on this site, when Acid and me were scum.
Lurking and badly explained reads are also not helping town.
VOTE: Northsidegal
I think there are enough of you who scumread North that we can put them at L-1?

Lurking and badly explained reads are also not helping town.
VOTE: Northsidegal
I think there are enough of you who scumread North that we can put them at L-1?

i'm not lurking, nor have my reads been badly explained.

Lurking and badly explained reads are also not helping town.
VOTE: Northsidegal
I think there are enough of you who scumread North that we can put them at L-1?

i'm not lurking, nor have my reads been badly explained.

LUV was lurking...
But that statement was not even directed at you.

Pretty obviously not directed at Southfrontguy, as well.
Seems like a slightly nervous response.

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It's not really OMGUS? NK15 was scumreading Porkens early on and Porkens returned the favour, repeatedly saying that his read was possibly influenced by the fact that NK15 was scumreading him.

But the vote itself was definitely OMGUS.

@Jaba 511: Okay If we both think each other is scum and nobody is going to read our argument, we're just making meaningless noise. I still do think you're scum but I'll do other things for now.

Or actually make a good case on Jabarkas to convince the rest of the town? It's possible to do that and do other things. This seems like a cop out.
(Varsoon scumreads you more than I do, but I really don't understand why you wouldn't keep pursuing us if we're your top scumread.)

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

All these replies are kind of out of order. I'm just looking back at the last few pages a few times and responding when I see something. Apologies if it makes it more inconvenient.
Here's some smooth muzik to make up for it.

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Xaiobarkas uses nicknames. Think of where they proxy to the actual player; Spaghetti = Yetichain (I think, 'cus Yeti rhymes with Spaghetti), but I know for sure Northfrontguy is Northsidegirl, because, well, lol opposites. I think he messed up because iirc he was calling her Southfrontguy before.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

You're killing me Varsoon. Anyone who scumreads you is horrible and hasn't engaged with you enough but I've given you stuff to engage on me with and you haven't. It's really frustrating.

Apologies if I've missed anything. I thought I had responded to you?
If you want to talk about anything, I'm literally always here.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It's gone now.
I don't get how they see my play as coming from scum, rather than not being alignment indicative.
Porken's vote on me, at the time, felt like a vote on me for playing. I later thought it was a part of some gambit and leaned a little into it. Now I'm not so sure why he voted me at all.
-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Don't recall the 'Yeti tipped off balance' bit, don't know what that's referencing.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It was more Porkens-influenced than from everyone, but even NSG and Yetichain felt like they were pushing me largely because of my frustrations over people not playing and trying to encourage players to play the game. I thought it was really annoying that I caught flak from Yetichain for pressure-voting Acid for content, because they never really outlined why that was a scum move, and it was as if they were actively trying to keep me from getting activity to happen. There was a lot of accusations that I was 'doing nothing', which I recall responding that I was really responsible for a lot of the game momentum that was finally happening.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I hate reading a ton when I'm not engaged in a game, but I will write a ton when I do get into a game. It's probably hypocritical of me.
Why wouldn't drealmerz7 be this disengaged if scum?
What makes you think Dunker is VI but NK15 is faking it?

I do like readslists with just a concise sentence that gets at the heart of each read, yeah. Helps.

There were a lot of accusations of who was engaging what players, which felt all kind of LAMIST to be given that the game hadn't really had much content before that point. I took umbrage to a lot of that.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Your position on readslists makes sense; I can get seeing everything as related and dependent on tons of factors. I just tend to use reads as a snapshot of where someone is on their thoughts about various players and chances of those players being scum or not at that moment in the game, with the info available.

Oh, man, I hated that game and was really upset with how poorly town played.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm glad I was offed day 2 and didn't suffer through it.
Then again, I've gotta figure the reason both of us ended up dead were because we had the game figured out.
Well, you more than me, given I died because Mason Lover nonsense.
God, Lovers is an awful role. No mod should ever put such an awful role in their games. Like, that role gives me no enjoyment and only exists to rob people of getting to play the game.

Anyway
This is a micro, so even if we get screwed, at least the suffering will be short-lived.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

If you're referring to ongoing games or some SUPER SECRET PERSONAL META notes that you're not going to share because you've learned SECRET TELLS THE LIKES OF WHICH YOU CAN'T SHARE, yeah, sure, whatever, but
Honestly, in a game, the only content that is valuable is content from that game itself. Everything else is external, imo. If someone can't justify a position based solely on content from the game at hand, then the justification doesn't really stand.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It means that I'm far more reliant on game-only info.
Relevant meta is still relevant meta, but that shouldn't ever be the sole reason for a read on someone. It can contribute, but if it's the sole reason, that just kinda feels flimsy to me, y'know?

P-EDIT:
Why N15? Didn't he claim a protective role? Do you think that claim honestly comes from scum trying to get someone else lynched via counterclaim? Because, if so, then if acid flips the role they claimed, nothing would stop people from lynching N15 for driving the lynch there.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

The validity of if your notes were meant to be a justification for your reads and stances was called into question.
I'm saying that, on notes for yourself, it makes sense to not want to refer to ongoing games or personal notes, thus the whole 'redacted' thing doesn't seem like a contrivance, which was some criticism you were receiving.
The second sentence there is meant to provide my personal ethos as far as justifying game positions/reads/whatever.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

@Porkens:

Why N15? Didn't he claim a protective role? Do you think that claim honestly comes from scum trying to get someone else lynched via counterclaim? Because, if so, then if acid flips the role they claimed, nothing would stop people from lynching N15 for driving the lynch there.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

VOTE: Acidphoenix
I want your full roleclaim. Now.

They claimed a neighbourizing and a protective role. That looks strange to me because of what

my

role is. A bit too close, perhaps. Depends on what they really are.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

T_T
Porkens, if you read my exchange with NK15, you'd know those answers already;
1. There's no such thing as a counterclaim in a closed setup, especially role madness.
2. It only makes sense as either play from a town PR legitimately thinking they are validly counterclaiming or from scum attempting a counterclaim that holds no weight because it's a closed setup and D1 anyway so if NK15 is scum doing a CC gambit, they're just going to be lynched the next day
3. I believe they can both be town and be neighborizing protectives.

What makes the NK15 soft-claim there really notable is that I don't think acid claimed anything close to protective--just neighborizer while softing there might be more.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I don't think there's any way that I come away from reading NK15's soft-claim and my exchange with him after that as indicating NK15 is scum.
It legitimately looks as though NK15 is counterclaiming acid because they believe it's a valid counterclaim.
Once they realize it isn't, they back away from pushing acid.

It baffles me how none of the people pushing NK15 address that.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

2. Because NK is pushing Acid based on the notion that only one neighborizing protective can exist; if NK is scum and acid is town and acid flips as claimed, it immediately draw attention to NK because they didn't think that my point 3 could be true.
3. I don't want to setup spec either of their roles, really, because that just makes it more likely they'll out more info.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I know nancy dropped the whole spiel on being conservative with her vote, but why should I consider your vote someplace when it isn't there, drealmerz?
Just vote.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Didn't realize you're not fully caught up, apologies then.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Well, 'bird' is the one that's be somehow sexist, given that it can refer to women, but even then, I don't get it either.

Anyway.

We've got like less than 4 days left in the day phase, for those of you who kept saying we had plenty of time.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

D1s need to be shorter

when is anyone going to get the clue?

wgeurts tried that in Evolution mafia (I think it was either 7 or 10 day deadlines) and, as scum in that game, it was basically our strategy to always stall town out to the deadline, where they'd play like shit and lose.
That's not saying it can't be done, but if we assume a reasonable work-week for someone, you have to consider how many 'weekends' you're going to allow and I think 14 days always ensures there's at least a weekend of activity before the end of the deadline hits.

Anyway
I see the whole convo between drealmerz and nancy as town on both ends, especially given how blunt drealmerz is.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

hi
why isnt nk15 dead

i will lynch nk15 or jabarkus no one else

...because they outright claimed a protective/neighborizing role in a way that screams town?
Maybe because no one else has really laid out a convincing case otherwise, anyway?


-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'd compromise outside of Yeti, but that's where I'd really want to lynch.
How do you read NK15's claim as anything but a hard claim of a neighbor/protective?
Dude literally says, "THAT IS KIND OF WHAT MY ROLE IS" as he does what he clearly believes is a counterclaim, which, once he realizes counterclaims aren't a thing in closed setups, he walks back from it.
There's a thousand different ways to rolefish but literally going, "That's my role, though!" and, what's weirder, is specifying the protective part, when acid didn't mention anything about being protective, I just can't read that as anything but town.

But again, outside of all of that role-related conversation, what makes NK15 such a huge candidate for today's lynch?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Like, has no one else realized that Yeti literally just ghosted after saying he'd focus outside of me in post 528?
I put all this pressure on him, his wagon starts to actually build votes, and instead of address any of that, he's just like "Guess we're gonna agree to scumread each other! I'll do other things!" and then he literally hasn't done any other things outside of make a singular post since then.
He's had one post since then, to lay a vote on NSG and that's it--and that was after two whole days had passed. It's been two days since then. At this pace, Yetichain's going to skirt through the rest of this day phase with one more post.

I can't fathom how people allow that to live but are quick to sheep up a wagon that's on a claimed protective D1.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

If we both think each other is scum and nobody is going to read our argument, we're just making meaningless noise. I still do think you're scum but I'll do other things for now.

This is what I'm talking about. In the same post, he spends some time parsing out his reads on some other people and making a small case for DunkerDoodle as scum, but doesn't really do all that much else besides asking NSG a question that doesn't really seem to inform anything.

And then there's two days of no posts, followed by a vote on NSG with the logic that it's coming from his previous scumread on her (which strikes me as strange, because he has a scumread on me--does he think she's bussing?), which is especially awkward because, looking through his ISO, I don't see ANY engagement with NSG or even real mention of scumreading NSG at all. The NSG scumread seems to come out of thin air, and I'd really like it if Yetichain could explain it some more, because it looks very arbitrary to me. It would make sense for Yeti to vote Dunkerdoodles here, given the earlier casing and trajectory, or at least attempt some kind of engagement there, but Yeti asks NSG what her read on him is and then, without anything else, goes in with a vote there, then disappears for two more days at least.

How's that town play?

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

So how does them FULLY CLAIMING AND OUTING THEIR ROLE quench your suspicions?
If you have alignment-indicative suspicions, explain what they are right now and explain why a fully claim would allow you to confirm that Acid is scum.
If your suspicions are that Acid has more than just a neighborizing role, digging for more information to be shared publicly is scummy as fuck and presenting that as some sort of alignment-sorting approach rather than you just rolefishing is not helpful to town.

So, answer my question;
How does getting a full roleclaim from Acid benefit town and not just fucking give scum a roadmap for where to shoot?
Then, I reiterate;
How does them FULLY CLAIMING AND OUTING THEIR ROLE quench your suspicions?
If you have alignment-indicative suspicions, explain what they are right now and explain why a fully claim would allow you to confirm that Acid is scum.

P-EDIT:
Can you explain your possibly-scumread on Porkens, too?

-V

Everyone has a role here did you forget?
They claimed a neighbourizing and a protective role. That looks strange to me because of what

my

role is. A bit too close, perhaps. Depends on what they really are.

P-EDIT:
Can you explain your possibly-scumread on Porkens, too?

Look at my ISO.
LUV had a strange defense on them I already pointed out.
Their refusal to answer my questions.
Their exaggeration at post 334.

So it should be REALLY clear from what I was posting that I suspected NK15 of rolefishing at the time of these posts.
Then NK15 literally writes, "[Acid] claimed a neighbourizing and a protective role. That looks strange to me because of what

my

role is. A bit too close, perhaps. Depends on what they really are."
Acid never claimed a protective role. The fact NK15 says that a neighborizing and protective role is 'a bit too close' to WHAT HIS ROLE IS strikes me as both a protective-slip and a soft-claim of neighborize/protective role.
If you consider the posts that follow, it becomes really clear that NK15 was attempting to counterclaim.
What I'm saying is that I don't understand how people scumread NK15 after this entire exchange, especially after the above post and the following:

I was referring to my post 182 and their following post 183.
The answer came some hours later187, after I intensified the pressure on 184.
Unfortunately you are right that I didnt think of a possible setup trap. A question to the more experienced people here: Is that likely? Jarbakas says yes.
For now I will trust you which means I will
VOTE: Northsidegal
again.

It surprises me that people are voting NK15 without pressuring him around this and asking him directly questions related to what informed his play and what motivations he had there, especially if they still scumread him after that interaction. That's what I'm saying: The NK15 wagon isn't a wagon that I find to be lead by convincing casework and there's no engagement or argument that's convincingly explained why we should lynch someone who has soft-claimed neighborizing protective in the way I've just outlined.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

@Drealz: He's saying that he's suspicious of someone's alignment because their roleclaim is very close to what his own role is.
When explained that a closed setup doesn't allow for counterclaims, he then votes elsewhere and rationalizes that similarity in roles could be a 'setup trap' and not be indicative of alignment.
How is that anything other than a counterclaim?

@Porkens: It's definitely a softclaim (now that I look at it directly and think of it for awhile), but the awkwardness of bringing up the 'protective' part strikes me as a slip more than anything and the 'bit too close to my role' with the bold makes it really firm that he's claiming his PR is within that domain. It's about as hard a soft-claim as you can make, though.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I don't think it makes him lock town either, I just don't get how the wagon on him doesn't approach it.
Drealmerz, where do you see it as manipulative/shady?


-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

That kinda bothers me, if only because;
if town, totally makes sense to claim that due to being V/LA through the deadline, would keep a no-lynch from happening.
if scum, seems like a deterrent to keep people from trying to go for his wagon this close to deadline and the fact it's loved on D1 only makes it really convenient as something that'll never come up/be proven wrong after today anyway.

Actually factually, nevermind, it baffles me why he'd claim that at all because
1. The specificity of D1 loved is really awkward and underpowered sounding
2. If he's town and he gets in lynch range, him being secret loved keeps a mislynch from happening anyway

Seems more likely to be a faked scum claim than legit townclaim, and strikes me as especially awkward because I don't think Yeti's realistically going to get lynched over NSG or NK15 given the day phase, but maybe Yeti hadn't caught up completely or doesn't understand the game-state??

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Milk toast? Jabarkas is more partial to milk steak.

Spoiler:

Anyways, Jabarkas doesn't see how Not Clown's "counter claim" makes any sense from a scum perspective. Why would he blow his load on a counter on day 1 and take away his options of a better claim closer to lylo?
For that reason, Jabarkas is out when it comes to Not Clown's lynch.

VOTE: Southfrontguy

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

That was me, btw, lol

-XL

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I have talked to Xiao, but he's about as present in our facebook convo about this game as he is in the thread.
He thinks NSG is faking town and not engaging hard enough--I think she's genuine town. We both think NK15 is town, so he split the difference with a vote where the lynch was more likely to happen out of Yeti/NK15.

Last minute run ups are the worst, which is what I was hoping to avoid by trying to get people to play more further from the deadline.
Once I'm dead, please lynch Yeti. That claim is suspicious as fuck and I am rightfully bothered by it and its specificity.
The fact that Yeti was also totally fine sheeping Nancy out on a last-minute wagon on me should be proof enough that the dude isn't trying to figure out the game.
I think NSG is more likely to flip town than scum because I think Yeti is scum, but Xiao holds pretty much the opposite opinion. Regardless, a flip on the one really informs alignment of the other.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Oh hey so fuck you actually
FUCK YOU

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I am legitimately seething.
Fuck all of you.
You're all god damn trash people.
I wanted to fucking play this game and have fun, but you all decide in one fleeting moment that I don't get to play the one fucking game of mafia I've been excited about in several months
So fuck every last one of you.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

What's extra goddamn annoying is, yes, I am fucking scum, so congrats on randomly catching me for shit that's not even alignment indicative.
Pat yourselves on the back and act like you're all great scumhunters and not assholes who just ruined the fucking game for someone.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I never fucking claim before lynch, especially as scum, but I'm so done with this fucking game.

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

You're all total pieces of shit.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I seriously hate you all.
Goddamn.
Okay.
Whatever.
Thanks for reinforcing the shittiest meta on the site; lurk and do nothing, then sheep last minute garbage. The fact it landed on scum this time is luck alone, which deprives me of even fucking feeling good about dying by lynch.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

I'm a ninja role anyway, which is kinda a lame role, because it tells me that there is high chance of some kind of a tracker in the setup who gets to mechanically be a cop now, so GG

-V

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

Yeah it's not like Porkens slammed the vote or Dunkerdoodles, who's done fuck all all game, also contributed.

[Jabarkas Mayonnaise]

It's not like Yeti, who's been fucking absent for the last 4 days votejockeyed back to me despite never engaging with me at all.

-V