Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

[Toto]

That was thor not you

[Toto]

Enlighten me. Your cases so far are bad. You are arguing definitions

[Toto]

Nope you are.

r: hi please don't ask me to defend alisae because I can't read minds
m: Alignments don't change, nice try.
r: Your reads could be wrong

There, I simplified it for you.

[Toto]

No, you are the one kept banging your head against him expanding his definitions.

The argument could have gone as simply as I described but you kept asking him to clarify the philosophical distinction between objective and subjective truths, which no one has a fucking clue about what the answer is.

[Toto]

That's what Thor does as scum too.

[Toto]

Whats your case on Ramcius scum, describe it as simply as you can.

[Toto]

I'm not arguing definitions. Ram is. Please go back and re-read.

I'm getting him to expand his definitions because his argument is ludicrous and I'm letting him dig his own hole.

[Toto]

Soooo

Anyone got any new ideas?

[Toto]

I kind of want to end the day to be able to lynch majiff sooner

[Toto]

Desp is not playng the game
Von not playing the game
Gin and Transcend are just memeing
Ram is doing ram
Rach is giving me the heebie jeebies lately anyone can sell me on town rach again?

[Toto]

Yeah Im explicitly not encouraging you to meme to your fullest

[Toto]

Yeah Im bored too

Seems like half the list wants to murder ram and the other half thinks he is town. Can we propose to have the PR investigate him or is that a bad idea somehow?

[Toto]

So with 6 living post lynch they become goon detectors. Not watcher/trackers

[Toto]

VOTE: Vonflare

[Toto]

I pmed the mod we need more from vonflare

[Toto]

Can we at least force replace Von or have him post something game related before we lynch someone else

Can everyone PM the mod and ask for more activity/replace the slot?

@Von

if you are town and reading I'm sorry but you are just not playing the game.

We still have > 4 days.

I can do Desp but I'm not happy with letting someone not play the game... and the slot has not only lurked but has not contributed any game related content the entire game which is scummy.

[Toto]

Agreed, but minimally I want the slot replaced so that we don't have this problem tomorrow.

Either that or picked up activity. Please PM the mod.

@Maj

I read your case on Ram and I don't get it.

+ You say he is arguing definitions when you are the one encouraging him to expand his definitions. You mentioned I'm not getting this somehow, please explain.

+ The rest of the case is that you said he was not posting because he was scum, and when he challenged you by saying has posted more than you, you called it a quality vs quantity thing, and then he proceeded to ask your a case quality, when you posted next time he asked you again for a case on him (and then you made this case), and apparently you read that as self consciousness (nervous scum).

Is that a correct summary of the events/arguments or did I miss something important?

[Toto]

I'll be done tomorrow for real I swear

I'll get everything ready.

Spoiler: things to do

[Toto]

Vax can you explain your scumread on ram?

[Toto]

I dont trust non-procrastinators in general

[Toto]

Btw transcend I like this avi more than the dog queen.

Eli you missed the theatrical lamist motivation “look how im scumhunting and considering my reads”

[Toto]

Well you are missing what is not there.

If he was town why does he need to be so cagey about it all. It just seems a bit convoluted to me.

Maybe he did use that tell in the past, or thought that was a tell in the past, and seeing it here gives him an opportunity to pretend he is scumhunting. Lying with truths is more effective and easier to do.

[Toto]

play the game

[Toto]

So VF is scum.

Can we lynch him now?

[Toto]

VOTE: Desp

Von probably not going to happen.

L-2

[Toto]

@thor

whats your read on Desp/Von

[Toto]

Von, do you have scum reads?

If so, elaborate.

[Toto]

@LUV if you are town (which I think you are) it would help if you point out which things you find scummy or townie as you see them and explain a bit better your reads (i.e. help town see the things you are seeing, and play the game).

[Toto]

@Thor

I'm assuming you mean these couple of exchanges. Let me know I missed any.

I felt at some point that you were putting words in his mouth.
I feel in general you are talking past each other.
I don't think Ram has avoided engaging with you.

The only thing Ram didn't (directly) answer is if he thinks Ali was town, which I agree is somewhat weird, but not sure if I'm convinced by this given your reputation of making people trip in their own words regardless of your alignment. @Ram can you explain how you think Ali was town, other than your role PM?

@Thor. Can you ask Ram simple / direct questions without assuming what he is trying to do. Also why did you think Ali was scum and what do you think about my replace out explanation for them being town. How is this different from BlackVoid's replace out in our previous game together.

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram - yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there.

Well, i'm town, but you scum probably, so yes, no issue i guess, carry on

I will take that as cowardly admittance that your core "complaint" about my push on you is meaningless and that you were just trying to act like my push was weak, when you recognize it is valid.
Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you can.

Valid? Yes, you are free accuse anyone you like for any reason you like, but i don't have agree with scumread on me, that's NAI. But that doesn't mean you are right. How many times have you played with town Ali? Cause from my personal experience he get scumread often.

Valid? Yes, you are free accuse anyone you like for any reason you like, but i don't have agree with scumread on me, that's NAI. But that doesn't mean you are right. How many times have you played with town Ali? Cause from my personal experience he get scumread often.

I'm just defending from your crass and meaningless case dismissal of me, that you know you did, and now you're playing word games to avoid admitting.

I've played with Alisae quite a number of times.
I actually would suggest that as long as you have people who know how to read Alisae, then town reads are usually what you get.
I don't see that happening here.

What's your experience with Alisae and do you think their play was towny?

In pretty much every game Ali got scumread, so either you have different experience somehow or you feel like you are very good at reading him. That comes from simple fact, you locked on read, you don't think "Ali is scumread most of time, so i will see what his replacement will tell", no, you just ignored me.

Now for the case, can you explain how i can know why Ali scumread people, why Ali townread other people? Or why he changed his read, when he did as momo case on me goes? Sorry, but Ali didn't left notes for me

[Toto]

There are a large number of differences between the two replace outs, and that you are acting like they're remotely equal level replace outs makes me squint (I'd love to see you expand on this as an idea you believe in if you can). My very short answer is this; Ali is easy to read when she gets emotional - she chose to escape the game before getting emotional even though she is aware that;
1. People who know how to read her do this.
2. That she is easy to read when this happens.

I think they are similar in the sense that they are both triggered by frustration towards the state of the game which they perceived to be bad for town and there was nothing they could do to change it. In the case of Alisae she was being scumread and probably felt it was underserved, or for bad reasons, as they were trying hard to scumhunt and play the game and felt they were playing as obvtown (they were).

You can see it building up in the game calling people 'lolmafiascum' so it's not an on the spot reaction. There is also evidence this sentiment is not something that has started on this game but they have expressed frustration against the site for a while now.

I feel it's more likely to be "you guys suck and don't know how to read me and will probably lose without me" kind of rage quit, than "omg they got me i'm going to pretend to rage quit so my successor can win" as you are interpreting it.

[Toto]

your list sucks because:

1) I should not be in the list
2) there is only two scum in each group

So 90% seems a bit optimistic.

[Toto]

Also, as we continue this discussion, I note you didn't address my question as to *why* Ram and I are talking past each other (because I think it's pretty clearly all from his end. Which should beg a question, yeah?) Or how he's continuing to try to hide behind Alisae's play and denigrate the position of attacking Alisae's play at the same time.

When I said talking past each other I did mean both of you. Hence the 'each other' part. I think it is better now.

Yes I agree Ram is being weird about not wanting to read the first 50 pages of the game and defending Alisae's play directly.

Regarding the replace outs I just find them townie because I've been in those shoes and have replaced once so I sympathise with the emotions. I have replaced into 3-4 games since then in similar condition (as our last game) and they were all town.

I do agree with some of your points on how they are different though.

[Toto]

No, you are correct. I have hard-ons when I talk about it. Discuss?

[Toto]

fake

[Toto]

It's a weird reaction

[Toto]

I mean, mine was an obvious joke/snarky comment, a reaction to your snarky comment, which you followed up with... how do you describe that? contempt?

It is just weirdly placed. It is almost as if that was your agenda in the first place.

[Toto]

k, I win.

[Toto]

#lastword

[Toto]

vonflare (2): Elliberetta, InactionDan [L-4]

Desperado (5): Creature, Bulbazak, Vaxkiller, SnarkySnowman, Toto [L-2]

RachMarie (1): [L-7]

checkersman7 (0): [L-7]

Transcend (0): [L-7]

Ginngie (0): [L-7]

Ramcius (4): Thor665, Majiffy, EddieFenix, momo [L-3]

Not voting (1): Lil Uzi Vert

It takes 7 to lynch.

[Toto]

You could vote instead of complaining about it

[Toto]

This could be red luv

[Toto]

If we all took that attitude no one would vote anybody. Votes are useful to put pressure and get more info. Your vote is your weapon mantra, etc etc.

[Toto]

Whats special about our current circumstances?

[Toto]

Meh

I dont buy this slow motion catch up bs. You are just buying time. You were not vl/a when that happened.

[Toto]

I really want to vote VF but I'm not sure if we can make it before the deadline.

[Toto]

Vonflare is pretty much confirmed scum

[Toto]

Happy B-day critter!

[Toto]

Desp were you scum? Thanks in advance

[Toto]

[Toto]

lets go balls deep

VOTE: c

[Toto]

Eddie is still scum

[Toto]

Hey Von do something townie if you are town. Did you catch up over the night phase?

[Toto]

The pretty darn long night phase*

You were on page 80 or so last time you posted. Which page are you on to now?

[Toto]

It only took sky 24 hours to catch by the way.

[Toto]

8==========D

The chu chu is coming

[Toto]

I think they are both town

[Toto]

But the doggy gets higher ammounts of paranoia based on reputation

[Toto]

I know you have a weak spot for alignment isnt ai but vonflare is pretending to be catching up eternally. He is game avoiding and he has been reading if you look closely.

[Toto]

Err weak spot for ‘activity isnt ai’...

[Toto]

How can Majiffy be town this game?

Are we reading the same game?

[Toto]

I want to lynch Von into oblivion but lynching in A is probably the better choice math wise. The problem is I don't really have such a strong scumread there.

In other news I just came from watching the new Star Wars movie and I will spoil the movie for everyone unless we get a scum hard claim in group A in the next

(expired on 2017-12-21 12:30:00)

[Toto]

Do not attempt to interfere with my plan!

[Toto]

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

[Toto]

Bulba please explain how majiffy and von are town.

[Toto]

Btw your association analysis assumes eli, toto and vax are not buddies with Von. I thought you were scumreading me. Why can’t I be bussing Von again?

Your analysis doesnt line up with your presumed perspective

[Toto]

Are you asking me?

[Toto]

Hi! why do do you scum read me and

repeat

agree with my reads at the same time

[Toto]

I actually lied about spoiling the movie. Bulb you can “come back” and play the game

[Toto]

What's the point of lynching in C if you're all just gonna mislynch vonflare?

can you explain why Von is town?

[Toto]

VOTE: b

[Toto]

I think we should consider not lynching Thor today since it doesn't give us any info.

[Toto]

Is not about creature living is about who dies instead of creature (info) if we ml or lynch the scum pr (aka majiffy)

[Toto]

We should have lynched Majiffy, bye creature.

[Toto]

Doesn't look like busing, I think the slot is town anyway.

[Toto]

Bulba,

We either have a communication problem or you are scum. Which one do you think it is?

[Toto]

I'm lynching the fuck out of Bulba tomorrow. You and von should shoot me tonight.

[Toto]

I don't give a fuck. You are either retarded or scum. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Therefore scum.

[Toto]

Toto's Real Time VCA

vonflare (0): [L-7]

Desperado

(2):

Toto, Creature

[L-5]

RachMarie (0): [L-7]

checkersman7 (0): [L-7]

Transcend (0): [L-7]

Ginngie (4): Elliberetta, InactionDan, Smocaine [L-4]

Ramcius

(3):

Bulbazak, Thor665, Majiffy, EddiePhenix

[L-3]

Not voting (12):, SnarkySnowman, momo, Lil Uzi Vert

Hi

[Toto]

I have 2/2 can you guys lynch this scumfuck tomorrow, then sky then majiffy.

Also lynch Von he is the last one.

[Toto]

Scum don't know each other this game I'm sorry your traitor buddies hoped on the wagon with you and Thor.

[Toto]

Majiffy has not done shit this game. His reads are pure empty air. He is balantly trying to blend. How can you see town Majiffy?

How can you see town Von when he has done NOTHING game related this game. I've basically begged him to play the game and he has given us nothing. If he is town he deserves to be lynched and then blacklisted for gamethrowing.

[Toto]

Thor is town

This is the only game related content Von generated today.

[Toto]

Its not a policy lynch. He is scum.

[Toto]

Please point me at a post that you think is indicative of town Majiffy. One post.

[Toto]

1. Why is that stupid and more importantly 2. why do you assume Majiffy is a stupid player.

[Toto]

RE: nightkils both shots have hit PRs so my guess would be scum were shooting at PRs. Rach was more obvious IMO of the two. I'm not sure what that tells me about the scum team other than they had a competent player among the goons (hi thor)

[Toto]

Or... majiffy is scum and has no reads and is pretending to be tunneling Ram because it fits his agenda. There are no reads outside Ram that I actually remember from him.

I dont understand your second paragraph. I never said there had to be only one competent player in the goons. But you only need one to ‘explain’ the night actions. Im not a big fan of nka in any case: Only scum knows why they shot who they did, and that includes irrational and stupid reasons.

Maybe you can explain what you mean instead of asking me to solve this mystery.

From my point of view Gin, von and ram were all viable lynch targets so it doesnt make sense to shoot them. That leaves checkers who had all but claimed vt, rach and transcend. Maybe the doggo is a scumfuck but he was acting like vt more than rach so I can see why rach got shot instead. Creature seems to have arrived at the same conclusion by visitng rach so Im not sure what is it that Im not seeing.

[Toto]

And finally, don't think that I haven't noticed that you focused on the least important part of my whole argument and means of discussion by focusing on the subject of what the nks say about the team. This was actually the context of that question, and it was the last in a series of questions meant to provoke critical thinking on the Von reads being bandied about:

In post 4544, Bulbazak wrote:
Here, I'll make it easier: If Von is town, what does that reveal about the goons? If Von is scum, what does that reveal about the goon in A?

In post 4545, Bulbazak wrote:
Bonus question: Do these teams make sense given the night kills?

I tried to answer the question but I don't know what you want me to say here,

I don't know how to extract more information from Von's flips role in group A.

My guess is the group A goon was in not!thor's wagon in the end, specially after I called everyone on that wagon red. But like I said, people do stupid shit all the time. I don't like this type of scum hunting.

Please dazzle me with your logic here. What am I failing to see?

[Toto]

I've already established VCA is crap in the past. Why are you surprised?

[Toto]

OMFG. That was not VCA. It was called VCA as a joke. You can't do VCA before you have flips.

That was me calling people out for jumping on a bad wagon for bad reasons, and trying to convince people to switch to Desp.

That is analysing motivations behind reads and votes and pushes and deciding if they are coming from town or scum.

[Toto]

I'd been pushing Von and Desp for a long time. They are both scummy. Desp wagon didn't seem to be picking up and was trying to get Von lynched because he is scummier than Desp. I switched back to Desp because Von was not picking up.

[Toto]

OR.....

I'd been pushing Von and Desp for a long time. They are both scummy. Desp wagon didn't seem to be picking up and was trying to get Von lynched because he is scummier than Desp. I switched back to Desp because Von was not picking up.

[Toto]

Desp wasn't picking up? I had just voted him, putting him at L-4. Vax was sheeping me on wagons, and he joined shortly thereafter. There was no reason to think Eddie wouldn't join either when he got off V/LA. So I became the third vote on the wagon, with the heft that promised 2 more votes. And then you voted Von. And even when Vax joined, where your vote would assure Desp, who you were scumreading, would be at L-3, you stayed off the wagon until you were forced to join it again.

And I want you to explain how Von was scummier than Desp, because you have to be making some logical leaps to reach that one.

I've already explained why Von is scum so many times it feels like you are not reading my posts and your push on me feels off. But basically he is active lurking. He is avoiding live interactions. He is not gamesolving. How the fuck is that townie.

If you want to beat your head against the wall and discredit everything I did to get Desp have at it. It's your Christmas gift. I'm done talking to thick skulled people, or scum.

[Toto]

Wait!

Do not lynch Thor god dammit.

I promise this is better but dont have time rn to explain. I can in a couple of hours.

Basically it is better to lynch someone else from B now and leave thor for later because of grp mechanics.

[Toto]

[If we lynch thor we cant lynch again in b until we merge grps or all grps are at lylo. Which is basically the same as lynchung thor later but with more info

With the added value that we can actually not ml today and have one grp solved

[Toto]

VOTE: majiffy

[Toto]

Actually it is my bad if we lynch Thor and they shoot creature we can still lynch in B because it is 3v1

VOTE: thor

[Toto]

In other news Gingie claimed scum so its all for the best

Happy holidays!

[Toto]

Bulb calling me a VI is sad if he is town.

[Toto]

im forever sorry I made a miscalculation about mechanichs in mafia. I will live in shame hereafter as a village idiot who happens to have good reads so far.

[Toto]

That was me who said gin scum claimed... ta da!

He jumped on my post to not lynch thor very opportuniscally. He is a better player than that.

[Toto]

VOTE: a

[Toto]

Cant vote

roughly:

Toto
Vax
Dan/Eli
bulb/sky

Maybe tunneling bulb idk.

[Toto]

Sky I dont really get your scumread on me. You think I was handholding/coaching Desp by shitting on his only attempt to give reads and redirecting the wagon on Von who you have declared your top scumread in C?

That would require me to know traitor desp was scum and redirect the wagon on the other person you also think is scum. If you think Im scum why would I coach desp while busing Von and pretty much prevent the lynch of the only other possible lynch (ram).

So your push on me feels more like an agenda than an actual read from your perspective because I dont see how that makes sense to you.

[Toto]

Its 5 to lynch. He is lolhammered

[Toto]

Kitty is town.

This is obviously a frame the kitty kill. I would not have killed bulb for what is worth. Any other kill would have been better for me.

[Toto]

I think we should lynch in B. Preferably majiffy

[Toto]

K I imagine you actually have a case and not an agenda.

[Toto]

#sarcasm

[Toto]

So if we lynch maj and von and they are both scum we auto win.

[Toto]

I think is better to do c first though. B is the safest group to solve last since there is always the chance scum derps and kill their own.

VOTE: c

[Toto]

Yes

[Toto]

But people have been saying the kitty is scum (aka me) so you havent been reading. We should lynch in C.

[Toto]

No

[Toto]

Worst case scneario:

Ml in C. Then Ml in A. Then ml in b and scum shoots town in b followed by ml in any grp.

Best case scenario:

Lynch von then maj and win the game. Or maybe maj then von. Not sure about the order.

[Toto]

Why is von town?

Why is the dog scum?

I dont see it

[Toto]

Why is it better to do B first?

[Toto]

Why is it better to do B first?

[Toto]

Why is von town?

Why is the dog scum?

I dont see it

[Toto]

I still dont get the logic of b over c. Dont we have to go through transcend vs von at some point anyway? And isnt it better to do it now rather than later as a ml is more informative now than after lynching majiffy who is more likely scum?

[Toto]

I get that but that is an emotional and not logical argument. If we ml after we have some ics they will just shoot the ics so id rather save majiffy for later

[Toto]

Im townreading the dog so unless you have something beyond your reputation Im not voting there

[Toto]

Why cant you just explain your case. I dont get it.

[Toto]

Meh. This is not a competiitive game, its a comunity where we are all supposed to be getting better at the game and that should make the game more fun.

Can you at least explain the Von townread one?

[Toto]

VOTE: majiffy

[Toto]

Since eli has a 100% read he wont share:

1) tomorrow we lynch transcend
2) if he flips green we lynch eli.


The only way to negotiate this is to out your read before transcend lynch.

[Toto]

If we lynch correctly in C we win today

VOTE: c

[Toto]

VOTE: b

[Toto]

I really dont see transcend scum here. Anyone wants to explain?
He basically would have powerbussed his entire team.

[Toto]

Transcend do you townread Eli?

[Toto]

You look pretty scummy now vs Eli tbh.

[Toto]

whats your ultimatum

[Toto]

I'm ok sheeping blindinly as long as mislynching doesn't lose the game and reasons are provided for each read.

@Mod

what happens in the following scenario:

A: goon + townx2
B: goon + town

We lynch goon in B.

Can mafia kill the remaining player in B and therefore win the game?

[Toto]

Where is vax?

[Toto]

I thought it was vax.

[Toto]

Why you bussed your whole team dog?

[Toto]

I agree this was too information-less for the informed minority. Not sure if I would call it townsided though.

[Toto]

I guess one thing that could be improved in the setup is making votes in the selected group count somehow, or encouraging participation from the selected group a bit more. I felt like whenever a group was selected all people in that group would lose motivation to participate.

[Toto]

I believe in the AlphaMeta 5000 now