Mini Normal 1961 - Game Over

[Lapsa]

hi

VOTE: Shinobi

[Lapsa]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

[Lapsa]

@everyone what is your role?

[Lapsa]

@Bory

I feel confident in my ability to defend myself if need be

[Lapsa]

lapsa, you don't feel any need to defend yourself now?

no. but that's not the point

Also why did you point that out to just Bory? That's a bit weird.

Because I can't see a problem in his post so I wanted to know what is the problem you see in the post.

@Bory

who is Kokichi talking to in the post you quoted?

[Lapsa]

Lapsa, why did you @ only Bora and not the other people who were in the discussion of semi defending you?

because Bora is my scum buddy

[Lapsa]

Bory seems to have a "mind of a programmer"

I can relate to:

I'm confused about why you responded to that question. It was clearly directed at Lapsa, about you. Can you explain?

I can't read.

that's not alignment indicative though.
just something to consider when reading him

[Lapsa]

because Bora is my scum buddy

please dont do this. if you are town its really unhelpful.
obv if you are scum, go for it!

you would have received a different answer

[Lapsa]

thought the guy was joking?

unsure what exactly are you asking here

[Lapsa]

bory saying he couldnt read

yes, I think Bory was joking

[Lapsa]

With that in mind, please refrain from excessive multi-posting (especially eight multi-posts).
It makes it harder to follow the thread of the game and muddies the water.
Also, it's downright unpleasant to read the game when it's just a font of unfiltered thought.

unfiltered thoughts are most revealing. sounds like you are against that

[Lapsa]

@Gurgi - I get that you don't like the spammishness of some of the people posting, which I get, but what do you think of our lurkier posters?

The spammy posting confounds any conclusions we could draw from the lurking.

how so?

[Lapsa]

Let me ask you this: How reliable of a read do you think you have from me, whether leaning town or scum, compared to mozamis?

comparably similar level of cogent read reliability

[Lapsa]

Mod Notes: Are you guys ok with this VC format?

@mod it's great

[Lapsa]

UNVOTE:

[Lapsa]

VOTE: Shinobi

[Lapsa]

VOTE: Shinobi

Why?

why not?

[Lapsa]

I bet that took you more or less half an hour to write

[Lapsa]

If someone puts another vote on Impede I'll declare intent.

you just did

[Lapsa]

yo lapsa idt we're gonna get shinobi lynched today

but hmu tomorrow if we're both there

what's the point telling me that?

[Lapsa]

Also why did you point that out to just Bory? That's a bit weird.

Because Bory was the only one I saw defending him.

@Assemblerotws how come your seeing affects questions Kokichi chooses to ask?

[Lapsa]

VOTE: Shinobi

no hes prob my strongest townread

@mozamis you poor, misguided fool. Shinobi is scum

[Lapsa]

VOTE: Shinobi

[Lapsa]

Stop throwing naked votes around and start making your logic known, please.

it's a waste of time explaining vote reasons to scum

[Lapsa]

Stop throwing naked votes around and start making your logic known, please.

it's a waste of time explaining vote reasons to scum

if you want to get scum lynched you'll need to convince other people to vote them, too. typically i've found that explaining your reasoning is more effective in getting people to believe you than just repeating your opinion. also, nobody is always right on their first guess - talking through your reads is a great way to make sure that they make sense and stand up to scrutiny.

anyways, just a suggestion.

it's very important to convince other people to vote too. otherwise typically nobody will be voted. or somebody. most effective is getting people to believe you and repeat your right opinion. unless we convince people to vote scum will be lynched so it is very important suggestion to explain people their votes. voting through your reads stand up for talking through making sense. NB: read this! it's a very suggestion important

[Lapsa]

thank you, northsidegal

[Lapsa]

@northsidegal what you might not realize is that you essentially defended Shinobi in a risk free way

Hmm... Why should I vote Shinobi? Oh, I member - he's the dude being naked voted. Ain't worth bothering.

mozamis gave a read

[Lapsa]

@northsidegal what you might not realize is that you essentially defended Shinobi in a risk free way

Hmm... Why should I vote Shinobi? Oh, I member - he's the dude being naked voted. Ain't worth bothering.

mozamis gave a read

yeah, i realize that and i think that's entirely valid. i don't want to get into a lot of theory talk but without even the pretense of a reason i'd default to not voting someone over voting them. i'm not even questioning your vote on him, i'm just asking you to explain something behind your vote. i presume you have reasons for who you're voting so i'm interested in hearing what they are.

you do realize that's just continuation and you are making it worse?

[Lapsa]

because you have no way of knowing the difference wrt if she's defending me or not

intentionally or not - she defended you

[Lapsa]

you haven't presented any reasoning so you can't draw any conclusions about anything because you don't know why she's doing what she's doing.

that's just false

[Lapsa]

you haven't presented any reasoning so you can't draw any conclusions about anything because you don't know why she's doing what she's doing.

that's just false

No, I'm pretty certain you haven't explained your read on me.
Do so now, please. I'm really not a fan of you constantly dancing around the subject.

northsidegal is unlikely to know why I'm voting Shinobi

^ that's a conclusion

[Lapsa]

@northsidegal defend me more, plox

[Lapsa]

@transcend at the very least - you made me slightly less paranoid

[Lapsa]

you

[Lapsa]

flavor, sunlit, mozamis

^ there's a scum, given nero got removed because of his reads

[Lapsa]

prod dodge

[Lapsa]

@kokichi what changed your read on me?

[Lapsa]

guess I was wrong

[Lapsa]

Day3

Transcend
+ transcendentally bold & wrong
+ mozamis #408 (vote)


Not_Mafia
+ replaced bory


A Simple Plan
+ classic scumstrat
+ framed
! #209


Sunlit Diamond
. claims being newbie
+ #162 (too much TRs)


Assemblerotws
+ borken reads list
+ mozamis #234
? mozamis #525 (soft bus?)
- strong town read on mozamis


Flavor Leaf
+ boon hammer maneuver
+ mozamis #234 (lurk fos)
- rvs vote from mozamis


northsidegal
- lots of bullcrap
- first to call out asp
- sunlit's #548 (meta)

Spoiler:

sunlit #162:
After rereading I'm 99% sure Komichi just put his foot in his mouth and hasn't figured it out yet.

Shinobi and Nero are town leans.

I haven't seen enough from Lapsa to put him as more than null.

I'm struggling to understand Bory's angle. We're on page 7, surely there's something to comment on by this point?

Impede I am less certain of. On the one hand he looks like he's trying; on the other, his "oh I didn't realize that wasn't helpful" rang hollow for me.

Simple Plan - you're non-playing. Do you have any reads?


ASP #209:
In post 205, Shinobi wrote:
>I’m struggling to see how KO is a better lynch than ASP.
I'm struggling to see how trying to use OMGUS and low activity as a push make me a good lynch.


mozamis #234:
but yeah, ASP, Flavor, Assembles need to do something soon


mozamis #408:
In post 406, Transcend wrote:
>VOTE: north
i mean... havent seen any reasons from you yet
VOTE: transcend


mozamis #446:
@ assembles what r your reads?


mozamis #525:
it just seemed like shade throwing
i could do assembles, its a bit of a lurker lynch but he certainly doen nothing town, decent chance of him being scum?


sunlit #548:
NSG, your play this time seems pretty defensive (as in, defensive of others), whereas the newbie game you were in that I read, you were pretty single minded in your pursuit of your scumread. What's the difference here / who are your scum reads other than KO? If you already said you can just link me the post.

[Lapsa]

i'm bory

nm is gurgi

doesn't matter

[Lapsa]

It does

if that's what you want to hear - I don't really care about you two

to such an extent that I'm willing to bet a game on it

unless meaningful game material comes up

[Lapsa]

just like your face

[Lapsa]

feel my wrath

[Lapsa]

yeah, sunlit. I'm sick of you ignoring game context

[Lapsa]

I misunderstood your "newbie claim" and you weren't scummy enough for extra attention

I don't think you are ignoring game context.
I think northsidegal gives crap reasoning and that you might be best to evaluate that properly

stay, please!

[Lapsa]

Lapsa, that whole "it doesn't matter" thing you said in response to N_M not being Bory is confusing. Are you basing your Transcend read entirely on him and not his slot overall, or...what?

agreed. it sucks

not entirely. gurgi didn't ping scum to me much either.
but yeah - mostly because it's like 4th or 5th game together w/ Transcend.
I do (naively) believe that I can read him fairly well.
he's bold and jumpy yet honest and wrong.
subtle tells of information deprivation is what pings town the most.
and he's fairly accurate on not going overboard with pushes

on Not_Mafia - I'm slightly less certain.
found bory to be more town than gurgi.
in a way - I find NM's play similar to Transcend's, just bit more cheeky.

e.g. their reaction to my replacement mixup is pretty much the same - NM just took 1 more additional step

[Lapsa]

also - I'm trying to open up because I think this is a good moment to strike and hijack the game
(and I welcome town to do so)

scum is crippled - there's vig going around and encryptor got removed

if I'm correct and indeed there was a plan to frame and flash lynch ASP - I have already raised suspicion of that

I expect scum to be extremely cautious and lurky this day.
situation is fragile and one sentence can ruin their game
(keep an eye on "oh, I was so busy" excuse posts in following days)

[Lapsa]

what makes you think asp was intended to be framed?

I believe that Shinobi was a juicy scum target

I personally tunneled him out of fear.
his play seemed eerily subpar to what I expect from him yet big picture didn't come together and there really wasn't strong scumtells

also - it was sort of a tribute to our last game where I tunneled Titus whole game.
and I dislike voting townreads even if that helps to avoid no-lynch (speaking of impede, kokichi)

Transcend chose to tunnel Shinobi similarly as I did.
I guess part of the reason was to probe me

Shinobi had everlasting push on ASP which didn't gather much steam
(so I wouldn't call it a huge threat in ASP!scum scenario)

where does the flash lynch part of that come in?

northsidegal jumped on ASP vote pretty much immediately

I find such reaction fitting for panicking scum

NB:

in case that's not obvious - I'm speaking of framing in a general sense (vs actual Framer role)

I expect scum to be extremely cautious and lurky this day.
situation is fragile and one sentence can ruin their game
(keep an eye on "oh, I was so busy" excuse posts in following days)

you realize saying this is entirely counterproductive, right?

I disagree

if town unites and opens up enough - in a long term that puts scum in a very awkward position.
there just won't be enough believable scumreads to make

but yes - that restricts scum hunting. can agree on that. trick here is to act quickly
(keep an eye on those who do dare to come forward)

[Lapsa]

also - don't think there's much reason left for me to avoid voting

VOTE: northsidegal

[Lapsa]

i don't think this makes sense - presumably a juicy scum target would be someone that was obvious town, right?

sometimes

if obvtown is influential and correct - then it's a juicy target.
I guess Nero would qualify

in Shinobi's case - I believe motive to be different.
which is - to make contagious chain of town scumreads on each other

are you trying to say that you actually townread shinobi yesterday and day one?

mix of always oscillating null, slight town/scum lean.
sounds convenient but I can't help that

[Lapsa]

why are you talking as if i wasn't the one who asked you (referring to me in the third person)?

because I actually thought I'm replying to sunlit

[Lapsa]

surely if i were scum and that was my plan then i would have typed something up over the night and actually started pushing him today, wouldn't you think?

WIFOM more

also, what does "panicking" have to do with anything?

this is what I mean by bullcrap

I can't figure out town intent for such a question

if i'm scum here, why am i scared?

vig + dead encryptor + calling out possibility of ASP framing => lack of plan, fear

also - your question seems to be logically broken.
it sort of implies that you admit being scared

are you losing coherence on purpose to look like you are scum hunting?

[Lapsa]

but do you have any reason to believe that?

yes

mix of always oscillating null, slight town/scum lean.
sounds convenient but I can't help that

this is entirely inconsistent with everything you've been saying since about the end of day one

please, be more specific

why should i believe you?

seriously?

[Lapsa]

WIFOM more

"wifom" is a lazy excuse for a point that doesn't make sense.

it does make sense. you basically asked me to defend you in your place

you're saying that my plan here was to frame asp and to get a flashwagon on him - my play today isn't consistent with that theory.

not anymore for sure

also, what does "panicking" have to do with anything?

this is what I mean by bullcrap

I can't figure out town intent for such a question

i'm trying to figure out what you're saying - i didn't see the clear connection between me voting asp and me panicking.

perhaps there wasn't intent at all and you were just panicking

vig + dead encryptor + calling out possibility of ASP framing => lack of plan, fear

and what does this have to do with me voting asp?

I see it as a scum slip

hasted reaction - as if it's completely obvious that ASP must be scum and everybody should unquestionably follow

also - your question seems to be logically broken.
it sort of implies that you admit being scared

are you losing coherence on purpose to look like you are scum hunting?

my question isn't logically broken, nor does it imply that i'm admitting to being scared, nor am i losing coherence at all. if you were more specific i could give you a better response than this but you've just stated things that aren't true. you implied that i'm scared scum; "why would i be scared if i were scum?" is a perfectly valid question - your reasoning on that wasn't entirely clear.

ok... taking back that one

[Lapsa]

mind telling me why?

mostly PoE. it's the only scenario I got that makes complete sense

assuming you are questioning events of this particular game and not game theory in general

you know what i'm referring to. the entire game you've been treating shinobi as if he's scum - there's never been any indication that your read on him was oscillating or that it was a slight town/scum lean.

no - I didn't know

you are correct - I have been treating shinobi as scum

why should i believe you?

seriously?

yes, seriously - like i said, what you're trying to tell me is entirely inconsistent with your play the entire game. is there some reason i should believe you? some indication that you actually held this opinion before?

don't think there's much indication of that if any

best reason there is is that nothing really forced me to share my read on Shinobi

then again - so far you are doing crap job for me to care.
it feels like you are just using affirmation to sow doubt

[Lapsa]

actually - there's even a better reason

apparently you are not scumreading me

has there been any indication of the contrary?
why shouldn't you believe me?

[Lapsa]

another interesting scumtell is that you claim not to understand me

perhaps that's true. perhaps not

thing is - town usually don't emphasize that at all

[Lapsa]

i'm trying to figure out what you're saying - i didn't see the clear connection between me voting asp and me panicking.

^ talking about this bit

I find your inability to figure out what I'm saying fake

[Lapsa]

why shouldn't you believe me?

just because at the moment i'm not convinced that you're scum doesn't mean i'm taking everything you say as the truth, nor should i.
my disbelief of your opinion on shinobi is unrelated to my read on you - it comes from being inconsistent with your play.

then why do you even expect there to be a good reason that somehow magically confirms genuineness of my Shinobi read?

another interesting scumtell is that you claim not to understand me

perhaps that's true. perhaps not

thing is - town usually don't emphasize that at all

i'm not sure i'd really call that "emphasis". i was explaining why i had asked the "panicking" question - the reason was clarification.
i've never claimed to not understand you in general, just on specific points that were unclear to me.

that leads to my next point

we are going back and forth for quite awhile - yet somehow you haven't really revealed anything.
this is precisely what I mean by panicking. either lurking (which I'm sure you did) or "discussion" full of doubt, questions and vagueness

for Christ's sake - I'm calling you a scum. there's a huge pink elephant in the room

at the very least vote me and shout out loud:

Lapsa is lying, he's clearly making things up to cover his ass!

[Lapsa]

when you say this, are you referring to today or previous days? like, are you saying that nothing forced you to share today or previously?

oh that is so confusing

I fucking linked it

[Lapsa]

and I congratulate you being so clever and emphasizing. really soothes my heart and soul

[Lapsa]

pour in role fishing

i wouldn't think you'd gambit a fake guilty. gunsmith, right?

[Lapsa]

you are on Earth. it's year 2017

[Lapsa]

snap

empathetic is what I meant

[Lapsa]

also - don't care about hints. I'm confbiased

[Lapsa]

i don't expect there to be one, i was asking if there was one that you wanted to show.

^ bullshit

mix of always oscillating null, slight town/scum lean.
sounds convenient

but I can't help that

[Lapsa]

Sort of a prod dodge, sort of a "wait, we're claiming now? What?" Sort of thing.

we are mass claiming at the moment

[Lapsa]

i don't expect there to be one, i was asking if there was one that you wanted to show.

^ bullshit

mix of always oscillating null, slight town/scum lean.
sounds convenient

but I can't help that

that quote is quite clearly saying that you can't help that your reads sound convenient. even if you can't help that they sound convenient, there might have been something you could point to as evidence - there's no inconsistency there.

and you are scum. there is no inconsistency in that

it's this scrutiny of pointless bullshit that gives you away

scum has to fabricate stuff so they do

[Lapsa]

and judging by your conversation w/ Transcend - you are far from being braindead

so you are all around fake

[Lapsa]

you do realize that's just continuation and you are making it worse?

[Lapsa]

funny how you quote a post originally accusing me of defending shinobi - i seriously think you have issues with confirmation bias.

what exactly you find funny?

let's talk something other than just reads then - what do you make of my claim?

I don't believe it

and it's not restricting enough to just let you go

[Lapsa]

I wonder why you didn't die n1

oh, wait - this is obvious. i don't know how i had missed this before - shinobi must have jailed me. i mean, i'm still not sure why you think i should have died night one but that would explain it.

do you believe Nero was a vig hit?

[Lapsa]

how come you were unsure why you should have died N1 yet 10 minutes later you are almost certain that you were a vig hit?

I wonder why you didn't die n1

oh, wait - this is obvious. i don't know how i had missed this before - shinobi must have jailed me.

i mean, i'm still not sure why you think i should have died night one

but that would explain it.

do you believe Nero was a vig hit?

no,

it's almost certain that i was the vig shot

and nero was the scum shot. it's possible that nero protected whoever scum were shooting but i think they probably just shot him.

[Lapsa]

i'm not sure why transcend is /saying/ that i should have died night one.

so you just casually baited transcend to admit he's a vig for no good reason, correct?

[Lapsa]

why are you almost certain that you were a vig shot?

[Lapsa]

given the idea of mafia or the vigilante shooting me

who gave it to you?

[Lapsa]

given the idea of mafia or the vigilante shooting me

who gave it to you?

i thought it was implied in your question of if i thought nero was the vig shot. if nero was the vig shot and i was shot but didn't die night one then it would imply that i was the mafia shot - i didn't think that was true so the inverse seemed likely to me, that i was the vig shot and nero was the mafia shot.

633

you came up with that and tryharding to squeeze in

making stuff up w/o any kind of evidence with every new post you make

transcend outplayed you

[Lapsa]

the fact that you treated my vig claim as anything but bullshit as seen in 633 shows that your vig claim is also bullshit.

perhaps you are tracker gunsmith vig motion detector role cop guerilla spiderman

of horse! that would explain it!

[Lapsa]

scum buddy, I summon thee!

[Lapsa]

the modifier of my role makes it entirely clear to me that there is another vig out there

my modifier makes it entirely clear to me that you are scum

[Lapsa]

UNVOTE:

[Lapsa]

i'm actually willing to entertain it

got another one

how about we keep them both alive?

[Lapsa]

I feel I have started to do things, with my north side push, and now my ASP push. Interesting that Lapsa stated otherwise.

interesting that I didn't

[Lapsa]

I'm 2nd night vigilante and I shot mozamis

VOTE: northsidegal

lynch Flavor Leaf next

[Lapsa]

lynch Flavor Leaf next

[Lapsa]

Yes, you said i needed to start doing things when I had already.

quote it

[Lapsa]

great diarrhea

[Lapsa]

VOTE: A Simple Plan

[Lapsa]

gg

[Lapsa]

i know the game technically hasn't been confirmed over yet, but when you get a chance - lapsa, why did you doubt my claim even after i hinted at the modifier?

how does hinting x modifier prove anything?

in fact - I'm adding that move to my scumbook

[Lapsa]

flavor assemble mozamis

flavor

mozamis
- what should we do if he claims PR? nero has caught
- what about X?
- initiated KO wagon D2
- D1 "anyone got any meta on KO? Is he ballsy enough as scum to do this? cos my gut reaction is that actually looks town" yet pushes D2
- in Theatre mafia claims knowing Nero well and vica versa
- Theatre mafia ISO seems WAY MORE informative, investigative and decisive

assemble
+ reads list which seems townily borken