Mini Normal 1969 - Blessed Mafia (Werewolf Win)

[Flavor Leaf]

I think Espeon worded that in a way where he could easily turn onto me if he wanted to.

[Flavor Leaf]

um
do you know how scummy you just made yourself look there?
like, i think you're town, but that's awfully scummy
was it actually a joke cause it was pretty random

pedit: same

This is funny. If you think he’s town, he made himself come across as townie, not scummy.

[Tchill13]

no traction with UC...

VOTE: jaydragonking

[Something_Smart]

You were on that wagon for less than a page

[Tchill13]

there was no such thing as an UC wagon. people posted and showed no interest in it.

[Tchill13]

realistically una is my only decent TR right now. Una is the only one im seeing effort from here.

[Tchill13]

jay and archie are getting thrown around a lot. The miller lynch was met with VERY much opposition. Ari's catch up is meh. Whymafia, Dunk and lil uzi leave much to be desired in effort. Apparently flavor doesn't game solve till day 3 (which seems like he's adjusting his town play to benefit his scum play if he's not gonna get involved early because ik how good a player he is.)... So yeah... Let's lynch someone.

[Flavor Leaf]

realistically una is my only decent TR right now. Una is the only one im seeing effort from here.

Why does effort = town? If anything, I myself put much MUCH snore effort in as scum than I do when I’m town.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t do it to better my scum play, my town play is stronger. I just can’t attempt at solving the puzzle when all the center pieces are missing. I’ll jump when I see something. I’m good with VCA, NKA, generally trajectory hunting, and right now, there’s just not enough for me to completely ‘gamesolve’.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, I have the second highest post count this game, so I’m not sure what the ‘not getting involved’ is referring to.

[JaydragonKing]

So when you have a choice to hang me or Archwing, you choose me,Tchill?

I really don't understand your thought process right now. So against hanging someone for seeming "too easy" yet going for the easy hang in Espeonage's Miller claim. What is the difference there?

[Quick]

jay and archie are getting thrown around a lot. The miller lynch was met with VERY much opposition. Ari's catch up is meh. Whymafia, Dunk and lil uzi leave much to be desired in effort. Apparently flavor doesn't game solve till day 3 (which seems like he's adjusting his town play to benefit his scum play if he's not gonna get involved early because ik how good a player he is.)... So yeah... Let's lynch someone.

Opposition to a wagon is more often than not an indication the slot is Scum.

[Assemblerotws]

Vote Count 1.05

Espeonage [3]:

Quick, Archwing, Dunkerdoodles

Quick [3]:

WhyMafia, Lil Uzi Vert, Espeonage

Archwing [2]:

JaydragonKing, UC Voyager

Aristophanes [2]:

Something_Smart, UnaBombaH

JaydragonKing [1]:

Tchill13

Not Voting [2]:

Flavor Leaf, Aristophanes

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to lynch or no-lynch.

Deadline ends in

(expired on 2017-12-18 12:00:00)

on

December 18th.

At deadline,

Espeonage

would be lynched.

Mod Notes:

Have fun!

[Something_Smart]

Opposition to a wagon is more often than not an indication the slot is Scum.

Lol

[Quick]

Opposition to a wagon is more often than not an indication the slot is Scum.

Lol

In the context of what is going on in this game? Yeah, I would say so. Chill has points that still have yet to actually be refuted but instead people don't heed his wisdom because... why? I am not really sure. Someone explain it to me.

[Something_Smart]

Did you read ANY of my several back-and-forths with Tchill?

[Something_Smart]

Not to mention that the burden of proof is on the ones arguing for a policy lynch.

[Archwing]

So I'll post something within a day or so regarding real content.... but man, this game is way too full of meta. This shit is ridiculous.

[JaydragonKing]

That feel when your a noob but everyone elsa around you is using meta strategies from having multiple games together.

If I was scum, I really would have been fucked.

If you Mainstays on this site could kindly use evidence from this game instead of previous experience with that player for your case, so someone such as myself can make an informed decision, that would be wonderful.

[Quick]

VOTE: Espe

Uzi, Flavor, Chill, you know why.

Yeaaah...

Something_Smart and I pulled off a Mafia victory earlier in the year with a page 1 Miller claim/fake cop claim gambit earlier in the year too, so like, I really don’t like this Miller claim.

You feel tonally similar to that game.

(Of course I'm taking that with a huge grain of salt as that's the only game I've played with you. But it still is a fact.)

And Espe, trust me, I'm aware of that but your claim would still be MORE trustworthy if there is a cop.

- As in, do you still claim to know my alignment and role.

Since it's now outright stated, yes, I fully believe you to be a town miller.

Guys I played as miller fairly recently
Just treat the miller as you would with any other player. Judge them on their play. If they act scummy, we pressure them, if they don't, we let em live

Oh my god I'm getting so many flashbacks to the game where I claimed miller as scum LOL.

Every time anyone said something like this, I cheered silently

From espeonage's pov anything that can keep him from getting lynched is what he's hoping for.

you make it sound like he didn't expect people to want to policy him when he claimed miller.

if we wanted to keep from getting lynched, he could have NOT CLAIMED MILLER.

Kind of a shot in the dark here but I feel like scum are a BIT more of a hindrance to town than a miller is.

And you know what, I can qualify that even more.

Scummy townies are hindrances to town too. So every lynch will remove a hindrance to town. With a miller, there are other things that can make his claim more or less likely, like the flipping of certain roles (And there are some roles that can still outright clear him, notably rolecop).

Miller is a very tiny hindrance to town once claimed. The only negative result is that if a cop happened to want to investigate him, they wouldn't be able to. That's very minor.

I agree with you that it is, in general, a bad idea to let miller claims live until LYLO. If he begins to show survivalistic tendencies in the next few days, then I may be willing to vote there.

But there's no reason it has to be today.

Coming from one person who's made endgame after fakeclaiming miller to another, I think it's well understood.

But your argument doesn't make sense. You're saying town should lynch him now because they might suddenly become dumb and decide not to lynch him later. If this were a town that would refuse to lynch the miller claim D2 or D3, could you really expect them to lynch it D1?

I don't know if I'm explaining this in the best way, but there's definitely some logical fallacy going on. If you could pick the lynch, you'd probably lynch Espe D2 or D3. But you're assuming that you won't be able to pick the lynch on those days because "anything can happen", so you believe that you can pick the lynch on D1.

Does that make sense?

He's a claimed Miller. A NEGATIVE town utility. Do I think he's scum? He could be. I've explained the motivation if he was. Either way we're lynching a suspect in my book. I'd like for everyone to take a hard stance on this circumstance. I obviously have.

Do you not agree though that at this point the negative utility for town is extremely slight? All it means is that a cop can't check him. But by lynching him we're not removing any negative utility, as a cop certainly can't check him if he's dead.

Why is town in a worse position to lynch scum while Espe is alive?

If I have a "must kill before lylo" list then at some point I'll have to deal with it. Sooner is always better than later in mafia.

That is a self-defeating argument. If we have a choice between options X and Y, then it works equally in favor of doing X sooner rather than later as of doing Y sooner rather than later.

*If my read on town!Esp. is accurate, then

Someone heavily advocating to lynch Esp. today is likely scum

Actually, I disagree. I think that a better conclusion is that someone defending him is likely scum. I think scum would try to avoid being at the forefront of a miller push; they'd try to hide in the background and look like they were just following and it wasn't their fault.

I kind of what to flip Jay.

If they flip scum, it's multiball. Which is good to know.

Bc relationally my scumreads don't make sense together and I have four of them. And it'd be nice to have a chance for them all to be scum at the same time.

Better idea:

If you think Jay scum implies multiball, then singleball would imply Jay town. So leave them alive for now and see if it's multiball first.

(And by the way, UCV, Paint Mafia Mania was an unusually terrible multiball game. Usually, they aren't quite so one-sided, and of course this is a normal so all of the complex mechanics there won't be present here.)

Key word "threat".

What exactly does the existence of a miller claim threaten?

And the existence of a cop would give a lot of credence to the miller claim.

Also,

@Something_Smart - Thoughts on that Miller claim?

Wayyyyyy more believable than mine was

Smart who's a scum read besides a low poster you'd rather Lynch Over the Miller?

I don't have any other scumreads.

This is every time you talk about miller by doing a mill search in your ISO.

Now I really don't want to have to do this because I have better shit to do with my time. But I can poke holes in ALL of these arguments and they still don't address the +EV of lynching a miller claim D1. Lynching miller D1 is the STANDARD way you SHOULD deal with that claim UNLESS there is something beyond magical that happens during the day that would override a miller death D1.

Your play surrounding the miller claim is exceptionally weak and I am vote parking on miller until miller claim is dead.

[Quick]

And lets get this strait, you don't NOT lynch a miller claim "because I believe the claim" you don't lynch a miller claim because "there is no doubt in my mind that the miller slot is Town" and if you have that kind of read on Espe at this point you should just quit Mafia right now.

And if you keep attacking the intelligence of your fellow players, you should just replace out before I do it for you. This is your only warning.

[Something_Smart]

Lynching miller D1 is the STANDARD way you SHOULD deal with that claim UNLESS there is something beyond magical that happens during the day that would override a miller death D1.

Evidence?

I've seen at least 4 games with miller claims and this view was never held by more than a few players, if it was even brought up at all. Even here it's a minority view.

[Something_Smart]

And lets get this strait, you don't NOT lynch a miller claim "because I believe the claim" you don't lynch a miller claim because "there is no doubt in my mind that the miller slot is Town" and if you have that kind of read on Espe at this point you should just quit Mafia right now.

Once again, you can't make claims like this with no evidence.

There are 11 people that I will not end up lynching today. Clearly I can't be positive that they're ALL town. So why should I have to positive that ESPE is town in order to not lynch him?

[Something_Smart]

That feel when your a noob but everyone elsa around you is using meta strategies from having multiple games together.

If I was scum, I really would have been fucked.

If you Mainstays on this site could kindly use evidence from this game instead of previous experience with that player for your case, so someone such as myself can make an informed decision, that would be wonderful.

Hi! Sorry you feel left out!

That stuff is optional, but it does help us get a better perspective. That said, it still is (or should be) combined with evidence from the game. For instance, I scumread Ari because he's not posting a lot and what he does post is shallow and easily faked. This is corroborated by the experience I have with him, but that experience is by no means a requirement for understanding the read.

If you're referring to the miller talk, all you can really do is use your own reasoning. All of us come from different backgrounds and also have different philosophies regarding the game, so there is a lot of talking past each other. In the end it's a matter of opinion anyway.

[JaydragonKing]

"you should quit mafia now." - Quick

My newbie game made somebody nearly already quit because of stress, but if they played with someone with your mindset, they surely would have stopped.

Your attacking the player in that situation, not the play. That is a dick move. Also, if I may be so bold, very elitest of you.

Let people enjoy the game, dude. We all have our own playstyle. Being a dick and telling them to quit isn't in the spirit of fun, or sportsmanlike.