Mini Normal 1969 - Blessed Mafia (Werewolf Win)

[Tchill13]

It's not a policy lynch. There is no burden on my part alone. It is towns burden to Lynch scum and I'm trying to make it as easy as possible. Yes I know opposition means most likely scum that's why I made sure to point that out. Sitting on a vote that will not lead to a Lynch is pointless. If espionage is scum he has partners. I'm forced to try to find them due to the fact no one wants to Lynch espionage. Apparently a Miller claim day 1 is treated the same way a cop claim day 1 is on this site. This is hysterically ridiculous.

[Tchill13]

That feel when your a noob but everyone elsa around you is using meta strategies from having multiple games together.

If I was scum, I really would have been fucked.

If you Mainstays on this site could kindly use evidence from this game instead of previous experience with that player for your case, so someone such as myself can make an informed decision, that would be wonderful.

Town... For now.

UNVOTE:

I'll cherry pick my reasons for keeping ppl around as well. This player seems pleasant and is giving effort. I'm not lynching until day 3 at the least or we have enough evidence to believe they're scum. Effort is NAI but makes for a more enjoyable experience. So yeah I'm gonna play with jaydragonking for a bit.

[Something_Smart]

It's not a policy lynch. There is no burden on my part alone. It is towns burden to Lynch scum and I'm trying to make it as easy as possible. Yes I know opposition means most likely scum that's why I made sure to point that out. Sitting on a vote that will not lead to a Lynch is pointless. If espionage is scum he has partners. I'm forced to try to find them due to the fact no one wants to Lynch espionage. Apparently a Miller claim day 1 is treated the same way a cop claim day 1 is on this site. This is hysterically ridiculous.

This seems to imply that you are absolutely convinced that Espe is scum.

Is that true?

[Tchill13]

It seems to imply I absolutely believe lynching espe will help town win this game whether he's scum or not. I will absolutely risk Lynching a townie that at its very core makes the game mechanically hard to win as town. I'll risk that over mislynching a townie that could be helpful every time. If we Lynch the Miller claim we possibly hit scum. We possibly hit a negative utility. We DO NOT risk another claim day 1. We do not risk wasting a mislynch on a townie that is not a negative utility while leaving a negative utility on the board that WILL NOT be killed by scum.

[Tchill13]

As for believing he's scum. I've stated how he could be playing it and I've overstated the opposition to his lynch. So yeah I'm leaning towards he's scum. Why fake claim Miller D1? Because scum wouldn't do that. If you're worth anything as scum you do what scum don't do.

[Something_Smart]

I don't believe that he makes the game mechanically hard to win. Slightly harder, yes, but the only drawback is that a cop has one person who they definitely can't investigate. There is usually more than one good cop target in any given night so that is a very small loss in my opinion. Do you disagree?

The part about not risking another claim day 1 is also valid, though in general that risk is always present. I also see the merit in the argument that he will not be killed by scum, though I think that anyone else who we MIGHT mislynch today is probably not gonna be killed either. Furthermore, lynching a scummy VT is not worse than lynching a towny miller, since the miller if town will continue to contribute to lynching scum and he seems to be a pretty strong player.

Finally, at the very least I think the opportunity cost of leaving him until tomorrow is worth it, since he's a perfect target for a rolecop (and also probably vanilla cop), gunsmith, vig, or any loyal investigative.

I'm starting to see where you're coming from, finally. Do you see where I'm coming from?

[JaydragonKing]

Play around with me, Tchill? Kinky.

And Elsa or Jay has to be easier to type then JaydragonKing. Voting with that name, sure, but it feels unneeded. Like me typing Tchill13 every time I want to refer to you. Sure for you it's only two extra things to put but still.

3 or 4 letters of my nicknames is much better then my 13 character username.

[Something_Smart]

As for believing he's scum. I've stated how he could be playing it and I've overstated the opposition to his lynch. So yeah I'm leaning towards he's scum. Why fake claim Miller D1? Because scum wouldn't do that. If you're worth anything as scum you do what scum don't do.

This is a fallacious argument. There are two reasons why he could claim miller Day 1:
1. He is scum going for WIFOM.
2. He is a miller.

You have given reasons why he might claim miller GIVEN THAT he is scum. But what we really want is the probability that he is scum GIVEN THAT he claimed miller, and that requires comparative analysis of the likelihood of (1) versus (2). And I bet if you look at the Mini Normal archives, you'll see more games where town millers claimed day 1 than where scum fakeclaimed miller day 1.

[Quick]

Lynching miller D1 is the STANDARD way you SHOULD deal with that claim UNLESS there is something beyond magical that happens during the day that would override a miller death D1.

Evidence?

I've seen at least 4 games with miller claims and this view was never held by more than a few players, if it was even brought up at all. Even here it's a minority view.

I hold my reasoning ability above the norm, I guess. If you're looking for evidence why I should put such confidence in myself I would tell you I scored better than 93% of people in the Science portion of the ACT which involves interpretation, analysis, evaluation, reasoning, and problem solving. Just so it doesn't look like I am bragging tho, I scored better than only 45% of people in either Reading or English, I can't remember which.

And lets get this strait, you don't NOT lynch a miller claim "because I believe the claim" you don't lynch a miller claim because "there is no doubt in my mind that the miller slot is Town" and if you have that kind of read on Espe at this point you should just quit Mafia right now.

Once again, you can't make claims like this with no evidence.

There are 11 people that I will not end up lynching today. Clearly I can't be positive that they're ALL town. So why should I have to positive that ESPE is town in order to not lynch him?

Because the most reasonable play to make if you are not positive of Espe's alignment as Town is to lynch the miller claim for reasons stated by Chill which you haven't actually refuted, but just moved the goal posts. If you want to argue that not lynching Espe is a more correct process, you are going to have to argue why keeping Espe alive for a later time in the game is beneficial to Town given you can't be sure of Espe's alignment. I believe the only possible reasons you can say that Espe shouldn't be lynched at this point is because either there is a legit Scum slip (which you will be hard pressed to convince me of because as I said earlier, I don't believe in slips unless it is blatantly obvious to everyone in the game) or you think you are better at making associations through Espe's play with other players to the degree that you know for certain that the next lynch will not be on Town. That would also require you to lynch Scum D1 as well. Good luck arguing that one.

[Tchill13]

Idc about archives. Idc about meta. Scum worth anything at all do what scum wouldn't do. That added with the fact that there will be no other claim, we don't leave any risk on the board at all... It's a blessing day 1 tbh. Hey man you do you though.

[Quick]

I don't believe that he makes the game mechanically hard to win. Slightly harder, yes, but the only drawback is that a cop has one person who they definitely can't investigate. There is usually more than one good cop target in any given night so that is a very small loss in my opinion. Do you disagree?

The part about not risking another claim day 1 is also valid, though in general that risk is always present. I also see the merit in the argument that he will not be killed by scum, though I think that anyone else who we MIGHT mislynch today is probably not gonna be killed either. Furthermore, lynching a scummy VT is not worse than lynching a towny miller, since the miller if town will continue to contribute to lynching scum and he seems to be a pretty strong player.

Finally, at the very least I think the opportunity cost of leaving him until tomorrow is worth it, since he's a perfect target for a rolecop (and also probably vanilla cop), gunsmith, vig, or any loyal investigative.

I'm starting to see where you're coming from, finally. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Why are you even arguing that we should keep Espe around because it only makes it a little harder to solve the game? Why take a harder option at all? Again, you have to be certain that Espe is Town for even your own arguments to even have a barring on whether we keep Espe alive or not.

[WhyMafia]

Nobody has taken a hard stance on the matter since I asked. So I'll politely ask again that yall do.

I made my opinion clear on this
idec if he lives to LYLO
I don't get what the big deal of being invest immune is

[WhyMafia]

Quick lynch

I don't think this is lynch bait. I have more the feeling that scum are bussing Quick rn because while there's been substantial pressure on the other names, there's been little to nothing on Quick

[WhyMafia]

Ari looks like Scum. All I see is an agenda in his posts so far. He's not really sorting anyone just labeling people Scum/Town.

Can you please explain what you mean by agenda?

[WhyMafia]

@Boon - do you "accept" or agree to Esp.'s analysis on your interaction with him?

In regards to my interactions with Flavour. I stopped scumreading him pretty quickly in to it.

And started townreading him with the easy transition in tone which he realised my grilling was over.

We talked ourselves in a corner so it may have been relief so it's not a hard townread, but a town lean.

..and what on earth was this about:

I think Una is saying that he thinks somebody ELSE is a role that could corroborate Espe.

I think this is why Una is pinging me, mixed in with general thought process. It’s exactly what I did when you claimed miller. However, that’s not necessarily scummy in practice.

I’m scum leaning you Una. Talk to me.

..because this was pinging my scumradar.
You are one of the better players on site who I have crossed paths with, and I think you if anyone should be able to read me.
I'm still to play "actual scum" in a game with you, but I have seen your town- and scum-plays. As Flavor Leaf, Boon and other alts.
You were even able to read me "correctly" or at least better than most in that stupid large I was a Traitor in.
Everyone else (who had played with me) was almost ready to townbin me D1, except for you.
So you misreading me or my intentions here worries me.

My previous posting with chill should be a very familiar concept from me, and you not catching on to it means that either you haven't read my posts, or you are scum
In other words - you should be above scumreading me this game.
(I'll be my usual lynchbaity self when people stop providing content and I get bored and start to force it)

Una were you frustrated when you wrote this?

[WhyMafia]

That feel when your a noob but everyone elsa around you is using meta strategies from having multiple games together.

If I was scum, I really would have been fucked.

If you Mainstays on this site could kindly use evidence from this game instead of previous experience with that player for your case, so someone such as myself can make an informed decision, that would be wonderful.

Hi! Sorry you feel left out!

That stuff is optional, but it does help us get a better perspective. That said, it still is (or should be) combined with evidence from the game. For instance, I scumread Ari because he's not posting a lot and what he does post is shallow and easily faked. This is corroborated by the experience I have with him, but that experience is by no means a requirement for understanding the read.

If you're referring to the miller talk, all you can really do is use your own reasoning. All of us come from different backgrounds and also have different philosophies regarding the game, so there is a lot of talking past each other. In the end it's a matter of opinion anyway.

ahahahaha remember 2 fold matrix
I get sad when I reminisce back to that game

[Quick]

Quick lynch

I don't think this is lynch bait. I have more the feeling that scum are bussing Quick rn because while there's been substantial pressure on the other names, there's been little to nothing on Quick

Oh, this HAS to be based on gut because I know you can't make this case.

[WhyMafia]

Quick lynch

I don't think this is lynch bait. I have more the feeling that scum are bussing Quick rn because while there's been substantial pressure on the other names, there's been little to nothing on Quick

Oh, this HAS to be based on gut because I know you can't make this case.

Gut as in that post? If so, yes

Gut as in my scum read? No

Glad you're here. I wanna ask you a few things

[Quick]

Ari looks like Scum. All I see is an agenda in his posts so far. He's not really sorting anyone just labeling people Scum/Town.

Can you please explain what you mean by agenda?

Forwarding a Scum win con. They can only do this by lynching X amount of Townies, hence why Scum almost always have to play manipulatively and debatably always.

[Quick]

Quick lynch

I don't think this is lynch bait. I have more the feeling that scum are bussing Quick rn because while there's been substantial pressure on the other names, there's been little to nothing on Quick

Oh, this HAS to be based on gut because I know you can't make this case.

Gut as in that post? If so, yes

Gut as in my scum read? No

Glad you're here. I wanna ask you a few things

Your SR on me or your SR on who is bussing me? Either way, you can't make this case.

[Quick]

Nobody has taken a hard stance on the matter since I asked. So I'll politely ask again that yall do.

I made my opinion clear on this
idec if he lives to LYLO
I don't get what the big deal of being invest immune is

I think you are too dumb to be Scum at this point.

[Something_Smart]

Lynching miller D1 is the STANDARD way you SHOULD deal with that claim UNLESS there is something beyond magical that happens during the day that would override a miller death D1.

Evidence?

I've seen at least 4 games with miller claims and this view was never held by more than a few players, if it was even brought up at all. Even here it's a minority view.

I hold my reasoning ability above the norm, I guess. If you're looking for evidence why I should put such confidence in myself I would tell you I scored better than 93% of people in the Science portion of the ACT which involves interpretation, analysis, evaluation, reasoning, and problem solving. Just so it doesn't look like I am bragging tho, I scored better than only 45% of people in either Reading or English, I can't remember which.

I hold my reasoning ability above the norm too (as do I imagine most people on this site). But that's not what I meant; I wanted proof that this is in fact the standard because in my experience the standard way to deal with a miller is to judge them on play.

And lets get this strait, you don't NOT lynch a miller claim "because I believe the claim" you don't lynch a miller claim because "there is no doubt in my mind that the miller slot is Town" and if you have that kind of read on Espe at this point you should just quit Mafia right now.

Once again, you can't make claims like this with no evidence.

There are 11 people that I will not end up lynching today. Clearly I can't be positive that they're ALL town. So why should I have to positive that ESPE is town in order to not lynch him?

Because the most reasonable play to make if you are not positive of Espe's alignment as Town is to lynch the miller claim for reasons stated by Chill which you haven't actually refuted, but just moved the goal posts. If you want to argue that not lynching Espe is a more correct process, you are going to have to argue why keeping Espe alive for a later time in the game is beneficial to Town given you can't be sure of Espe's alignment. I believe the only possible reasons you can say that Espe shouldn't be lynched at this point is because either there is a legit Scum slip (which you will be hard pressed to convince me of because as I said earlier, I don't believe in slips unless it is blatantly obvious to everyone in the game) or you think you are better at making associations through Espe's play with other players to the degree that you know for certain that the next lynch will not be on Town. That would also require you to lynch Scum D1 as well. Good luck arguing that one.

I don't think I'm the one who moved the goal posts. The aim of a mafia game is to lynch scum. This is an incontrovertible fact. Therefore, without a compelling reason to the contrary, we should lynch the player we think most likely to be scum. I am not positive of his alignment, but I townread him, and I believe we can get a better CHANCE of flipping scum lynching someone else. Arguing that you need certainty is dumb; this is not a game about certainty but about judgements and probabilities.

I want to lynch scum. Espe is not likely scum. Therefore, I don't want to lynch Espe. If I end up lynching town, then I was not WRONG about the probability of that person flipping scum, and mislynching someone else is NOT worse than mislynching Espe. Because whoever we would have lynched had we not lynched Espe would be considered the scummiest person in the town, and would be mislynched the next day.

Why are you even arguing that we should keep Espe around because it only makes it a little harder to solve the game? Why take a harder option at all? Again, you have to be certain that Espe is Town for even your own arguments to even have a barring on whether we keep Espe alive or not.

Because I think he is town. I don't have to be certain he is town; I just have to believe that his odds of flipping scum are lower than other players' odds.

[Tchill13]

SS clearly has the ability to reason but can't see that his play is a day to day approach while mine focuses on putting town in the best position to win in later day phases. We're not going to Lynch all the scum in the first few days phases. The PROBABILITY of that is very low but that's how you're approaching it. If we Lynch someone else today we still have to deal with espe just like if we lynched espe today we'd still have to deal with the next scummiest.

[WhyMafia]

Hard claiming that I will be confirmed town tomorrow

Is that like a IC delayed until D2 or something?

Just quoting this to see if WhyMafia is full of shit or not.

Why does it matter to you?
VOTE: Quick

Uh... Why do you think???

If I'm gambiting town, I get to eat the NK from potentially a PR
If I'm telling the truth, you'll find out tomorrow
If I'm scum and have not been confirmed town, you lynch me based on the play

Why in any of these scenarios would you want a definitive answer

Hard claiming that I will be confirmed town tomorrow

Is that like a IC delayed until D2 or something?

Just quoting this to see if WhyMafia is full of shit or not.

Why does it matter to you?
VOTE: Quick

Uh... Why do you think???

If I'm gambiting town, I get to eat the NK from potentially a PR
If I'm telling the truth, you'll find out tomorrow
If I'm scum and have not been confirmed town, you lynch me based on the play

Why in any of these scenarios would you want a definitive answer

I don't like how you sidestepped my question with your response in 144[/[post]. Can you answer the question?

I also don't like your [post]530
To me it seems that this is a post that could set up a mis-lynch in the future. Can you go through your mindset on why you said this?
In 607 why do you think it's an agenda

Also:
Clearly you and Tchill aren't convincing the majority of town. Who do you think is manipulating us? Why aren't you focused on convincing others that you're right? Your main argument has been with SS. To me, it doesn't seem like you're trying your hardest to get that lynch through.
Furthermore, by making the miller claim a centerpoint for discussion despite realizing that this lynch in all likelihood won't happen, you're causing less scum hunting to take place and putting your vote on a vanity wagon

[WhyMafia]

Nobody has taken a hard stance on the matter since I asked. So I'll politely ask again that yall do.

I made my opinion clear on this
idec if he lives to LYLO
I don't get what the big deal of being invest immune is

I think you are too dumb to be Scum at this point.

Like see, stuff like this

If you're town, you're fucking isolating the people you can work with anyways
Like come the future, if both of us are alive, we need to work together. Like clearly we disagree, and clearly you're not doing a good job explaining why we're wrong