Mini Normal 1963 - List Mod Mafia Game Over

[skitter30]

@wave: We are in MYLO, and I do want to hear what Seph has to say before I vote.

[Sephiroth]

I mean this is definitely well played by Wavemode if he pulls it off but the claim is fake. Its a bold move, Cotton, lets see if it works out for him.

This sure is a convenient claim to make.

- No other odd/even night actions...this sounds like a detail added to just make the role feel less generic and faked, but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup. It gives him a convenient means of limiting the results he needs to fake and also allows him to claim he backed off implosion 'cuz results'.

- But why would a vanilla result lead you to back off a scum read on someone, knowing that the result was NAI? On N1 a non-vanilla result against implosion does literally nothing to indicate his alignment, just that he wasn't PR. It seems much more likely that you're realizing that your interaction with implosion D1 doesn't look too great if you get lynched here instead and have to worry about getting me mislynched tomorrow instead of him.

- The breadcrumb is weak sauce. I think town with PR here would be damn sure to get their full bread crumb and the reason for stopping doesn't really hold any water if you're doing the first letter of every post.

- Skitter literally sets this up for you perfectly by repeatedly saying there had to be another investigative. Skitter in about 3 posts claims there must be an investigative remaining and then bam wave claims that today.

---

Skitter, I guess I'm just going to speak to you here because its really up to you what happens today.

My actions have been consistent all game. I push someone a little bit, and then depending on their response I either move on or I plant my vote and push for their lynch. I have a well established meta of probing and tunneling as town. Please read my one finished scum game on this account or if you really want to dig deep you can look at my main account, elias_the_thief, and check my ISO as scum and town.

I think its actually fairly insulting to say that I only amplified or latched on to your pushes. My points on the Mulch wagon were unique from yours. I mean you literally said 'what seph said' in response to someone asking you about the Mulch wagon because my point was not one you had made. We were on opposite sides of the wossi wagon, and my push on Lalendra had nothing to do with what you were doing. And I'm disappointed to hear what you consider me pocketing you. My post 594 is purely in reference to Serg repeatedly changing his vote around, not scumhunting, and generally acting randomly. My frustration with Serg was not sudden and did not start with that post. He voted you there for being a 'tryhard'. I was genuinely frustrated at a non-contributor who decides to vote a contributor because they're 'tryharding'. I even mentioned in a previous post how I was having trouble getting reads because we basically had rational actors who I considered to be town and then all these non-rational actors who were varying degrees of null and scummy and hard to parse. Its even more frustrating hearing this twisted into a tell. Regardless of alignment, just believe me when i tell you: I don't appreciate how serg generally plays the game, I like players who analyze and TRY and I don't like someone being attacked for actually putting effort into the game. If you want to also believe its a tell thats your prerogative but my frustration here is 100% genuine =/

105 - I don't think this looks like a bus either? It's just an off-hand mention of not liking one of Two's posts. I'm not really sure why you're characterizing this as a maybe-bus tbh. There's very little pressure on Two at all. It's a post about other people where he throws in a mention about not liking Two, but doesn't even directly follow up on this suspicion, even after Two responds to it.

Sorry but that's not true. In that post I discuss thinking that TIAMs 68 is scummy, and speak to wanting to read some of TIAMs games to get a better read. And I did follow up by reading 1954 as well as a second game (later on, when I was arguing with wavemode that we should lynch TIAM) and post that the read didn't really change my read, but note that other players read TIAM town based on meta. As for not responding to TIAMs direct response to allegations, are you telling me you think I should have responded to 'I disagree' when I was busy pushing my number one suspect? What exactly do I gain by responding to 'I disagree', regardless of alignment?

I think this is unlikely:

Town: Skitter and Implosion
Townish: Flub and Wicked
Null w/ town lean: TIAM
Null w/ scum lean: Serg
Null/No Read: Dany, Chip, Wavemode.

He has no strong scumreads at ths point. Not sure why he isn't just in the null pile.

Skitter...please be vigilant before you throw the game away for a well crafted fake claim. Did you read the next part of my post? Here it is:

And this of course leaves my good friend, Lalendra. Lalendra is scum. We should all be voting Lalendra,

at least

to start the day. Like maybe we can vote someone else later but just look at that first post of D1. How could she completely forget me from her reads? I thought I was quickly rising to be one of her top scum candidates, and Mulch's town flip if anything should be reinvigorating her crusade against me but instead I suddenly don't exist. This to me is a post made by someone who's reads are not genuine. Town doesn't just forget to mention one of their top scum reads entirely on their first post of D2. Combine this with the potential white knighting, the role fishing on wossi who of course turned out to be a PR. It makes me wonder if perhaps there was a crumb that informed both the role fish and the NK.

Vote: Lalendra

I DID have a stronger scum read, I had someone that I was certain was scum. I don't know how you missed the literal very next part of my post.

And this wasn't like a sudden thing, Lalendra had been my top read and I was aggressively pushing her for a long time.

I can do some more when I'm home and not at work but I implore you to really think about your arguments because already you've made two errors in the ISO analysis and your confirmation bias is making this way too easy for scum. Read my ISO again. Ask me questions. Read games from my other account. Don't throw the game away prematurely here.

[Sephiroth]

Also...

Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate. Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so

Why would someone as a vanilla cop (who has a gun) ask to be investigated here when they know it only serves to muddy the waters or potentially get them mislynched? If Wave were really someone who returns as having a gun it doesn't make any sense to ask to get investigated, and it makes perfect sense to ask to be investigated as scum after the investigative explicitly tells you theyre not investigating you.

[wavemode]

If you're sticking with your VT claim I VOTE: Sephiroth

[Sephiroth]

I suppose we might as well lay down the gauntlet, huh?

vote: wavemode

[Sephiroth]

Care to answer why you would request an investigation as someone with a gun, if you didn't just make up the claim overnight?

[wavemode]

Why would someone as a vanilla cop (who has a gun) ask to be investigated here

after the investigative explicitly tells you theyre not investigating you

You answered your own question

Are you reading the words you're typing at this point or is it all a blur

[Sephiroth]

You realize theres a difference between positing someones reasoning for doing something and getting an answer from that person right? Being a dick about answering a question doesn't make you look protown, it just makes you a dick.

Vanilla Cop here never asks to be investigated, especially in MYLO, EVEN if the investigative has said they won't (especially when you acknowledge that serg shouldnt be broadcasting his choices). As vanilla cop, claiming VT then asking for a investigation can only lead to your mislynch. I can see you maybe doing it as scum where you can get town points for asking and can much more easily take the risk that serg DOES decide to investigate you since your lynch wouldn't mean an immediate loss. There is literally no pro-town motivation to claim VT as vanilla cop and then ask to be investigated by the gunsmith.

[Sephiroth]

It would've been a really good fakeclaim if you had finished your breadcrumb or actually played in a way that supported the claim throughout. But I guess this is why your specialty is town play?

[Sephiroth]

Can you also elaborate on how you would be unable to continue the crumb just because the topic of discussion changed? You were doing the first letter of every post so how in the heck does the game momentum changing possibly prevent you from continuing to be conscious of the first letter of every post?

[wavemode]

Vanilla Cop here never asks to be investigated

You're right, that's why I didn't

[wavemode]

Can you also elaborate on how you would be unable to continue the crumb just because the topic of discussion changed? You were doing the first letter of every post so how in the heck does the game momentum changing possibly prevent you from continuing to be conscious of the first letter of every post?

Yeah I suppose I can see why this is hard for you to understand

Serg hardclaiming didn't change anything for you or force you to reevaluate anything since you already know everyone's alignment

[Flubbernugget]

Yeah I don't believe wavemode

-> setup was balanced at massclaim and wave didn't challenge it.

-> tiam tried a shitty role gambit that I don't think he was smart enough to conjure up himself. That means he was coached. It makes sense for scum wave to be consistent with role gambiting.

-> Sephiroph has been a town read of mine for the majority of the game.

[Sephiroth]

Vanilla Cop here never asks to be investigated

You're right, that's why I didn't

Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate.

Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so

I mean, semantically you're right, but you said you would prefer if you were the one investigated. It would be pretty amusing for you to sit there and argue that 1159 is not asking to be investigated. How come in your first response you say there is an obvious reason to ask to be investigated but now your response is 'that never happened'?

Yeah I suppose I can see why this is hard for you to understand

Serg hardclaiming didn't change anything for you or force you to reevaluate anything since you already know everyone's alignment

If you don't have an answer you can just say that instead of some forced bravado. I repeat my question: Why were you unable to continue to crumb after the hard claim, when all you had to do was continue being conscious of the first letter of your post? What does reevaluation have to do with your original stated reason for not being able to continue to crumb below?

Then I think once Serg hardclaimed I had no real way to keep it up subtly and still logically address everything that was going on

[Flubbernugget]

Skitter said something that led me to believe implosion is the second scum. I don't remember what it was though.

[wavemode]

Yeah I don't believe wavemode

-> setup was balanced at massclaim and wave didn't challenge it.

-> tiam tried a shitty role gambit that I don't think he was smart enough to conjure up himself. That means he was coached. It makes sense for scum wave to be consistent with role gambiting.

-> Sephiroph has been a town read of mine for the majority of the game.

2 is crackbrained. 3 is circular reasoning. as for 1... I'd be dead right now if I had claimed yesterday, and you know that. So why is this your argument here? I'd expect this kind of reasoning from scum who go "shit, town gambited me. Well I'll make him pay for that by arguing that he should have claimed sooner! (even though that means I would have killed him...)"

Even Seph has not been willing to make that argument in its own right, since he knows that it'd be retarded and make him look horrible.

[skitter30]

Skitter, I guess I'm just going to speak to you here because its really up to you what happens today.

Yeah, I know. Hopefully I don't screw this up

It's a good thing this happened while I'm on break lol. Def would not have had time for this last week.

From my POV, me and Serg are town. I'm still pretty sure Flubber is town. {Wave/Seph} presumably contain exactly one scum, which leaves Implosion as the odd man out. I'm pretty sure Implosion is always scum here. Before I was contemplating the possibility of wave/seph, leaving implosion to be town, but that isn't a thing anymore.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that

everyone

takes {me/Serg} to be town right now, one of {Wave/Seph} to contain scum, and then one of {Flubber/implosion} to contain scum.

All of the below is @seph but I just spoilered it into parts so that it doesn't become super unwieldy.

(I wrote a lot, and I don't really expect you to go point by point through this cuz it's a lot. I bolded the stuff I would actually appreciate a response to).

--------

Spoiler:

No other odd/even night actions...this sounds like a detail added to just make the role feel less generic and faked, but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup. It gives him a convenient means of limiting the results he needs to fake and also allows him to claim he backed off implosion 'cuz results'.

Why does he need to back off implosion here? He actually isn't backing off implosion; he's said yesterday he thought it was you/implosion.

Also, I'd agree with you on the even/odd night thing, except I've played in a mini normal recently (1946) where all the PRs except one were full-night. IE loyal cop, miller, jailkeeper, were full night, as was the scum loud fruit vendor. There was *also* an odd-night tracker, presumably odd-night so a convo like this would happen. I was scum that game and I was actually worried that the JK was lying and was even-night bp or something so that it would be more balanced on the even/odd night thing, but that wasn't a thing.

And I have a high enough opinion of Wave that I think he'd pick a fake-claim that actually matches the set-up. I don't know why he'd fake-claim odd-night here instead of just fake-claiming full-night. I don't think odd-night adds credibility; if anything, I think it detracts from it. And I think everyone else has claimed already so it wouldn't be too hard to fake a result for night 2. Like he could have just said I'm vanilla or whatever, and people woudn't have batted an eye.

Also, I was kinda expecting you to attack this on the grounds of wave's claim tipping the game towards being too townsided. Kinda surprised that you didn't go that route tbh. Not sure if it's significant, but just thought I'd mention it.

- The breadcrumb is weak sauce. I think town with PR here would be damn sure to get their full bread crumb and the reason for stopping doesn't really hold any water if you're doing the first letter of every post.

I don't think PRs always crumb. I sure don't.

Skitter literally sets this up for you perfectly by repeatedly saying there had to be another investigative. Skitter in about 3 posts claims there must be an investigative remaining and then bam wave claims that today.

I said I thought that there had to be another investigative in relation to

why I believed Serg

. Game didn't make sense without any useful (ie not wossi) investigative at all. After we all claimed and Serg then claimed gunsmith, I said I had thought someone was lying about being an investigative and that I was expecting it to be someone else (specifically wave), but that I believed Serg because an investigative had to exist.

I was *not* expecting another claim after Serg.

Also wave's crumbs (1092-1095) came from before I said that (1106) and before Serg claimed (1100).

------

Spoiler:

Like his whole Mulch push is just an amplification of my own.

and is often adding weight to my pushes and agreeing with me

I think its actually fairly insulting to say that I only amplified or latched on to your pushes.

I didn't say that you 'only amplified or latched on to [my] pushes'?

In fact, I specifically said 'often' and 'Mulch push' because I'm very cognizant of the fact that we differed on the Flubber, and Wossi things (and for a while, the Lalendra thing as well).

OK, looking back, 'often' is maybe an overexageration and a mischaracterization, because it only applies to Mulch. But to say that I said that you *only* amplified or latched onto my pushes is a misrep of what *I* said.

And I don't think it's a misrep to say that you amplified my Mulch push.

My points on the Mulch wagon were unique from yours. I mean you literally said 'what seph said' in response to someone asking you about the Mulch wagon because my point was not one you had made.

OK and .... ?

Maybe you don't like my use of the word 'amplification,' or maybe I didn't get across what I'm trying to say. I pushed Mulch. You took my side and added weight to the push, yes, by adding some new and unique points. That's what I meant by 'amplify'. The reason why I have a problem with this is because looking back, the manner in which you did so looks kinda pocket-y (ie posts like 612).

I don't know how the fact that you added points to the Mulch push is relevant to this discussion.

Regardless of alignment, just believe me when i tell you: I don't appreciate how serg generally plays the game, I like players who analyze and TRY and I don't like someone being attacked for actually putting effort into the game. If you want to also believe its a tell thats your prerogative but my frustration here is 100% genuine =/

Yeah and I don't disagree that players like serg can make the game difficult and hard to play, and I totally understand your frustration with him.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure this frustration is AI :/

Sorry but that's not true. In that post I discuss thinking that TIAMs 68 is scummy, and speak to wanting to read some of TIAMs games to get a better read.

I also REALLY don't like Post 68 from twoinamillion. The reasoning seems manufactured and they had JUST finished trying to shut down any discussion involving Flub's claim. Seems a little sketchy to interpret Flub's post that way and turn it into a vote.

This is everything you said in 'that post' (105) about TIAM. You call it 'manufactured' and 'sketchy'. You don't say anything there about wanting to read his games, so I'm not sure why you're saying I said things that weren't true about this post. Like I'm not sure what the 'not true' things I said were here.

(Like I'm always going to go back and check when people say things like that and I remember them differently).

And the point that I made is that this looks kinda off-hand given that it's a large post about multiple people and you just throw it in there without (immediately) doing anything about it. Yes you can only vote one person at a time, but this was in response to Implosion calling this a bus, and my point is that the way you interacted with TIAM in 105 is not exactly a bus.

Like I'm agreeing with you that you were pushing Two there. I'm disagreeing with implosion that it was a bus. I don't really get what we're discussing here tbh, or what exactly you're trying to clarify wrt to this point.

well crafted fake claim

but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup.

Well . . . is it well-crafted or not?

I DID have a stronger scum read, I had someone that I was certain was scum. I don't know how you missed the literal very next part of my post.

That's fair. What I meant to say 'does not have a large number of significant scumreads at that point'. I didn't forget about your Lalendra thing, I was just focusing on the readslist.

Again, this was in response to implosion saying 'maybe TIAM was nulltown because Seph felt he had too many major scumreads at that point', and I was pointing to that readslist to show that you *didn't* have that many major scumreads at that point. You only had the one. So that wouldn't be a good explanation for why TIAM was nulltown there when he had been scum the day before. (The fact that I forgot to include Lalendra doesn't actually negate this point).

LIke I kinda feel like me/implosion are raising some legitimate points and that you're focusing on details to debunk them, when the details aren't actually that relevant to the points that I'm raising.

[skitter30]

Also...

Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate. Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so

Why would someone as a vanilla cop (who has a gun) ask to be investigated here when they know it only serves to muddy the waters or potentially get them mislynched? If Wave were really someone who returns as having a gun it doesn't make any sense to ask to get investigated, and it makes perfect sense to ask to be investigated as scum after the investigative explicitly tells you theyre not investigating you.

I think he did it for the towncred since Serg had been implying he wouldn't check him. I don't think it's especially AI though. If he was trying to soft 'Not PR' it makes sense that he would ask to be checked if he didn't think he was going to be checked anyways.

I think I explicitly believe the claim. I don't know if the claim itself is inherently AI. (Namely, I'm positing that scum VC could make sense here balance-wise).

Despite that, I think there's def one scum and one townie between Wave/Seph, and I don't really think scum!VC!wave and townie!PR!seph makes sense in this specific context.

Like if scum!VC!wave gets a 'not vanilla' result on townie!PR!Seph, I feel like Seph would just claim PR, but didn't.

I'm pretty sure I believe the claim though, which leads me to believe town!VC!wave and scum!PR!Seph is the universe we're living in.

But I'm not really ready to end this though. Need to finish looking at wave/seph's ISOs.

@seph: If he *is* lying, he was clearly planning this since at least yesterday because he was clearly waiting for you to claim before he did - look at the timestamps and how you two were the last two to claim and how he claimed immediately (immediately wrt to timezones/sleep) after you did. So I don't buy that he planned it overnight after Serg claimed.

[wavemode]

I mean, semantically you're right, but you said you would prefer if you were the one investigated. It would be pretty amusing for you to sit there and argue that 1159 is not asking to be investigated.

You're the one arguing semantics at this point. All I'm arguing is what did and didn't happen. You can use whatever definition of "ask" helps you sleep at night buddy

How come in your first response you say there is an obvious reason to ask to be investigated but now your response is 'that never happened'?

Uhhh because both are true? There is an obvious reason to ask, but I never did. Or hey, maybe by your definition of "ask" I did "ask." But I'm not sure what that changes, maybe you could enlighten me to your actual point?

[Flubbernugget]

Like if scum!VC!wave gets a 'not vanilla' result on townie!PR!Seph, I feel like Seph would just claim PR, but didn't.

Wave,

This is what actual circular reasoning looks like

[Flubbernugget]

The idea that a single investigation is more valuable than properly working with the town through massclaim is what being crackbrained actually looks like

[wavemode]

Nope. Crackbrained would be getting yourself killed when you could get yourself a guilty instead

[wavemode]

That you're not seeing this is astounding

[Flubbernugget]

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

Don't be this stupid and then act surprised I guess?

[skitter30]

The idea that a single investigation is more valuable than properly working with the town through massclaim is what being crackbrained actually looks like

I mean . . . .Serg was hoping to do the same thing yesterday.

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

And that vig was suspected to be a maybe!SK, and decided to shoot a guy who was townread instead of the guy who quickhammered, so yeah.

Plenty of people have done idiotic things this game, so wave not claiming yesterday doesn't raise that many red-flags for me right now tbh.