Normal Roles

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Post Post #2 (isolation #0) » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:46 am

Post by mastina »

  • (which for some ungodly reason doesn't even have its own fucking page in spite of it being a standardized role we've used for literally YEARS that is universally known and understood):
    1. ROLE:
      Currently listed on the Visitor page, it is a nerfed version of a friendly neighbor: a player gives information to another player, but that information contains no inherent definitive alignment.
    2. SAMPLE PM:

      Code: Select all

      During the night, you may target a player. That player will be told they have received a piece of fruit, but not who sent it.

    3. WHY TO ADD:
      This is a role which is so common and universal that it's frankly dumbfounding it's not already whitelisted. In fact, many reviewers (myself included) can even sometimes FORGET that it's technically not a whitelisted role. It's
      that
      common.

      The role has seen use countless times in an endless number of games. It sees use on JOATs, and it has many variants. (For instance, an increasingly popular variant is the Loud Fruit Vendor.) It is a role which is so common, easy to understand, and universal in definition that it is easy to add modifiers. Loyal fruit vendor, for instance. The role simply has no reason to NOT be whitelisted. How common, exactly, is it?

      In the Normal Queue alone, there are 507 matches for the term. (Approximately.) Spread across 43 topics spanning AT LEAST two years back.
      Sitewide, it's 3619 and counting mentions, in 606 topics. It has a unique function in games and is universal. There's no way a person can look at "fruit vendor" and not know what role they are getting. They know exactly what it is, and its commonality makes it a great addition to the whitelist which is long-overdo.
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Post Post #8 (isolation #1) » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:59 pm

Post by mastina »

In general, I'm not in favor of removing perfectly acceptable roles from games which have noted prior utility; we should generally be
adding
to the whitelist, not
shrinking
it.
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Post Post #15 (isolation #2) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:05 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 13, callforjudgement wrote:You missed one of the most important parts: "You cannot use this action at the same time as another action."
No, I did not.

That is deliberately not part of the role.

That is something defined on the moderation level, and something most likely public in the first post: whether mafia can use a nightkill in addition to a night action or not.

It is entirely valid to have a mafia fruit vendor which can both kill and action.

You might think that is pointless, but it's not. The mafia fruit vendor which has the ability to kill and action can still act as a confirmation of role without confirmation of alignment...and that is absolutely something valuable in of itself to have.

Whether mafia can kill and action is not something which should ever be defined in the role.
It is something which should be defined in the RULES.
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Post Post #16 (isolation #3) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:12 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 15, mastina wrote:Whether mafia can kill and action is not something which should ever be defined in the role.
It is something which should be defined in the RULES.
See also: other mafia roles.

We don't specify whether roleblockers can universally action or kill in the Normal guidelines for good reason--
...Because it is on the moderator to decide if a mafia roleblocker can both kill and action.
Some mods will say they cannot.
Others will say they can.

It can even be the difference in balance.
A mafia roleblocker who cannot action and kill is inherently weaker for the mafia than one which CAN action and kill.

Yet the normal guidelines allow for both, with it being the moderator defining which it is in their game. (And the responsibility of the reviewer to ask.)

That's more or less why having it as part of the role I would not be okay with; it is something which the moderator should decide, not the Normal Guidelines.
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Post Post #17 (isolation #4) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:17 pm

Post by mastina »

(Incidentally I know that at the very least two of my mini normals used a fruit vendor, and in both games my rules publicly stated that mafia could both kill and action. I also am well aware however that there is a history behind having fruit vendors in games where mafia cannot both kill and action. But again, for me this is an individual-moderator call, not something we should universally make one be the case and therefore innately remove the chance of using the other.)
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Post Post #26 (isolation #5) » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:14 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 18, callforjudgement wrote:I consider the Fruit Vendor to be so inherently tied to the "cannot kill and action" mechanic that the mechanic comes along with the role, even if it isn't in use elsewhere in the game. (That is, even in a game where scum normally can kill and action, they can't kill and fruit-vend.)
I don't. In my experience that is an outdated definition of the role--the role evolved. It may have originally had that function, but has since gained new functionality in other ways it has been utilized.

Nowadays, fruit vendors where mafia cannot both kill and action are in the minority--not the majority. Fruit vendors where the mafia cannot both kill and action are how the role originally began, sure. But they are not how the role functions most commonly in its
current
iteration. That being said, thanks to the history of the role not to mention how some mods DO still use the "cannot both kill and action" clause, we shouldn't just boilerplate rule out either version of the role. Again, I feel very strongly it should be left to the game moderator.
Besides, if a Fruit Vendor can perform other actions at the same time, the role is just a Visitor; you can confirm you're a Fruit Vendor but you can't confirm that you don't have another role too.
My impression of the Visitor role is that the visit is not announced to the player being visited. As in, Visitor A visits B; B does not know of this. This makes it a distinctly different role from a fruit vendor, where Fruit Vendor A visits B, and B is told they received a piece of fruit, thus telling them they were visited.
A confirmed fruit-vend doesn't mean anything unless it's mutually exclusive of
something
.
You're forgetting that these days, fruit vendor is such a common and universally-understood role that moderators have begun to modify it and utilize it in other ways with modifiers, both whitelisted and graylisted ones.

A loyal fruit vendor acts as an investigative role, but one which is weaker than most and much weaker than a loyal friendly neighbor. (A loyal friendly neighbor is basically absurdly powerful.)
A loud fruit vendor acts as a slightly-nerfed friendly neighbor: it tells the person NOT ONLY that they were visited, but the exact identity of the visitor, simply lacking the confirmation of alignment.
I'm sure mods have begun to play around with other modifiers for the role as well. It has seen usage on JOATs as a third power, for instance, as just a "little bit extra", while still being mostly filler that doesn't add much. Just that final extra bit to push the game to being balanced.

I also feel you underestimate the value of confirmed role in mini normals if nothing else. In mini normals, there are certain balance guidelines we use. 3-5 town roles (average of four moderately-powered ones) with 0-2 mafia (average of one moderately-strengthed one) role(s) is the general guideline we use for them. A fruit vendor is a weaker, "filler" role, and confirming its existence in the game confirms that it is one of the roles in that chart, allowing for towns to narrow down (be it correctly or incorrectly) what they believe the setup for the game to be.

There can only be so many roles in a mini normal.
And if you confirm that a fruit vendor is one of those roles, then you confirm that either the mafia got a nigh-worthless role, or you confirm a player as town, essentially.

These "confirmations" are not as strong as a friendly neighbor, but that's the whole POINT. The fruit vendor
isn't
alignment-confirmed, but IS role-confirmed. Leaving players to speculate on whether the alignment for the confirmed role is town or scum.
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Post Post #27 (isolation #6) » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:21 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 25, callforjudgement wrote:I'd probably ban Vengeful as scum for the same reason that Vigilante is banned as scum. However, I have no problems with it as a town role.
I'm uncomfortable with any "this role works differently in lylo" modnotes being present in a Normal. Those are more the province of Theme games, I think (and often imply that the role was badly designed in the first place).
I'd echo this, and with it as a caveat, would in fact support adding Vengefuls to the TOWN whitelist. I feel Something_Smart's : it is a common role, universally understood, which has a definitive utility and is not severely altering the mechanics of the game. In fact, it's another one of those roles where I wasn't really aware it wasn't whitelisted, because it's a role so prevalent on the site I kind-of took it for granted it was explicitly (rather than as a graylist implicitly) allowed.
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Post Post #29 (isolation #7) » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:47 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 28, callforjudgement wrote:What you're saying here is effectively "Fruit vending confirms that the user
does not have a role other than Fruit Vendor
". That's similar to my restriction (but not exactly the same), but if it's important, it should be spelled out (especially in Normals).
I am okay with this definition, yes. We typically have one role be...well, one role.
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Post Post #49 (isolation #8) » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:34 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 48, hitogoroshi wrote:1. Modifier: Hideous
2.
You are a [Town/Mafia] aligned Hideous [Role]....You may only target a player you have never targeted before.
3. The modifier is mostly meant for Doctors and Bodyguards, because it's a way to avoid follow-the-cop but still allow more dynamic nightplay than non-consec (which is kind of a blunt tool.) It can also be nice to stop RBs from creating degenerate endgames.
A more common modifier along those same lines is "Non-consecutive-target", wherein you cannot target the same player two nights in a row.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #9) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:28 pm

Post by mastina »

Speaking of:
  1. Modifier:
    Non-consecutive-target.
  2. You are a [*alignment*] Non-consecutive-target [*role*]. [*Role description*]. You may not use this action on the same player twice in a row.
  3. The modifier is, while somewhat-uncommon, known well enough and sees some usage around the site (albeit mostly in themes). The name is literally self-descriptive, telling you exactly what you need to know about the modifier and letting you know precisely what it does, which is the hallmark of many good modifiers (e.g. night-specific, non-consecutive(-night), odd-night, even-night, X-shot). Its function would be to serve as a way to force players to not keep targeting the same player, as a potential slight but not severe nerf to their role.

    Additionally, were such things deemed allowed, it could see good use with other modifiers. (I'm not sure how much we'd want to encourage stacking multiple modifiers on a role, but such things ARE technically allowed I believe.)
Maybe not the best argument, but I do feel it could have a place in the whitelist--it's already graylisted and has seen usage before, after all. (I'd have to hunt down what games tho.)
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Post Post #55 (isolation #10) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:38 pm

Post by mastina »

Also,
  • MODIFIER: DISLOYAL
    :
    1. ROLE:
      (well, modifier) The inverse of Loyal, Disloyal actions only work on a target of the
      opposite
      alignment.
    2. SAMPLE PM:

      Code: Select all

      You are a [*alignment*] Disloyal [*role*]. [*Role description*]. This will only succeed if you do not share your target's alignment.
    3. This is an increasingly-common modifier as the logical extension of the Loyal modifier, and is a way to significantly buff or nerf the power of certain roles. (E.g. a Disloyal Vigilante can only kill scum as a buff; a Disloyal Mafia Doctor can only protect town as a nerf; a Disloyal Cop can only get guilties on scum and has no way of knowing if the 'No Result' is on town as a nerf.)

      It has immense utility in games and already exists on the graylist for modifiers in that it sees more and more use with the rise of Loyal as a whitelisted modifier. It forces roles to use their actions in certain ways to achieve desired results. A disloyal fruit vendor, for instance, could try to get a guilty from anyone saying they received fruit but would otherwise be useless.

      The modifier has a lot of ways it could be used and many possible applications. Seems like a pretty solid addition.
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Post Post #66 (isolation #11) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:19 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 64, Umlaut wrote:
In post 62, callforjudgement wrote:Normals already ban duplicates (except in obvious cases like Neighbour).
I can't find this rule anywhere.
I'm not sure if this rule was implemented or not, actually. It was discussed backstage, but I don't remember if it went through or not.
In post 56, Umlaut wrote:This seems like a good thread to resurrect now that the greylist is no more.
  1. Modifier:
    [Role]
    -Immune
    . Immunity to targeted night actions by a specific role. Can be added to any other role.

  2. Sample PM:
    You are a(n)
    [Alignment]
    [Role]
    -Immune
    [Your-Role]
    .
    • (remainder of alignment and role description)

    • If you are targeted by a
      [Role]
      at night, that action will fail.
  3. This modifier is self-explanatory, fits the spirit of a normal game, and introduces no mechanics that anyone will find confusing or misleading. It would most likely function as a role-specific Ascetic in most games using it, allowing a more granular approach to balance than a full Ascetic would.

    The only potentially-surprising aspect of this role is that by definition a [Role]-Immune should be immune to
    any
    action by a [Role], even if the action is unrelated to that role's specific abilities; e.g. if a Voyeur-Immune Townie were shot by a Mafia Voyeur, the kill would fail. I consider this a feature, not a bug, in that it opens up space for creative designers to tinker.
Easily fixed with a tweaking of the wording:
"If you are targeted by a
[Role]
action at night, that action will fail."
Problem solved!
In post 57, BNL wrote:This role will need a name change, but otherwise I think this needs to exist:

Role: Automatic rolestopper (Mafia aligned only)
Sample PM:
Mafia automatic rolestopperWelcome to game X, Player, you are a Mafia 1-shot Automatic Rolestopper

Abilities:
(Standard stuff)
Once during the game, if you are performing the nightkill, you may activate your ability. Any other actions targeting that player that night will fail.
This is in the same vein as the Mafia Ninja and Strongman (which is why I used a 1-shot variant for the role PM). While Ninja takes care of motion and Strongman takes care of kill success, this role will take care of any roles targeting the NKed player, namely Doctor and Watcher. These roles tend to be more powerful than Roleblocker (for Strongman) or Tracker (for Ninja).
You're quite correct; the name and description for it are a little clunky (albeit clinically, they are technically accurate), but I feel this is a good role to have.

How's this?

Mafia SniperWelcome,
Playername
.
You are a
Mafia Sniper
.
(Standard Stuff)

During the night, if you perform the nightkill, all other actions targeting your target will fail.
I chose the name "Sniper" because it felt like it fit; you can tie it to the idea of both the term
sniping
(stealing something at the last second) and to how a sniper remains unseen, striking from a distance, suddenly killing their target without warning.
In post 59, Umlaut wrote:I don't think Named Townie is currently whitelisted?
I thought it was?

If not, then absolutely it needs to be, yes.
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