Open 703: Masons and Mafia Town Win!
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?In post 22, CommKnight wrote:
^ This is to everyone talking about faking being a mason. Congrats on making sure scum don't fall for it. Should give yourselves a pat on the back.
Do you think it wasn't the obvious choice?- humaneatingmonkey
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Why did you unvote here?In post 34, Almost50 wrote:
Hmmmm....In post 15, humaneatingmonkey wrote:Tips on how to differentiate VT play, mason play, and scum play? I'm guessing basic tells don't apply here because both key groups will be acting scummy.
UNVOTE:- humaneatingmonkey
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I mean why would masons try to counterclaim. Sorry.In post 62, havingfitz wrote:
Who suggested that?In post 61, humaneatingmonkey wrote:Why would masons try to fakeclaim?- humaneatingmonkey
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I don't think counterclaiming is needed. If masons all see someone's counterclaim as scummy, they will just wagon that shit.In post 66, havingfitz wrote:
If they had reason to think a fakeclaim was coming from scum they might. A 1 for 1 mason v scum claim off would benefit town as long as it's not a lylo situation.In post 64, humaneatingmonkey wrote:
I mean why would masons try to counterclaim. Sorry.In post 62, havingfitz wrote:
Who suggested that?In post 61, humaneatingmonkey wrote:Why would masons try to fakeclaim?- humaneatingmonkey
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Like counterclaiming mason is any different lmaoIn post 69, havingfitz wrote:
I'd think that would be some obvious mason tells to scum.In post 68, humaneatingmonkey wrote:I don't think counterclaiming is needed. If masons all see someone's counterclaim as scummy, they will just wagon that shit.- humaneatingmonkey
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I think there's still the variable of bussing scum and participating vts.In post 71, havingfitz wrote:
That's a 1v1 and outs 1 mason vs "In post 70, humaneatingmonkey wrote:
Like counterclaiming mason is any different lmaoIn post 69, havingfitz wrote:
I'd think that would be some obvious mason tells to scum.In post 68, humaneatingmonkey wrote:I don't think counterclaiming is needed. If masons all see someone's counterclaim as scummy, they will just wagon that shit.theywill just wagon that shit" and perhaps out more than one. Lmao
Anyway, the point is, judge according to play instead of claim. This way, masons don't need to counterclaim since they have the benefit of information, VTs don't need to be punished for redirecting scum kill, scum won't always trust a mason claim. The town does not need the information of who is mason or not. They just need the solid read of who is town or not.- humaneatingmonkey
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A mason claiming would probably reveal other masons by interaction. I don't think anyone should be claiming anything other than mason.In post 80, havingfitz wrote:
hem...In post 77, humaneatingmonkey wrote:If a mason claims, he's dead anyway.
I think your POV of this game is coming from a different win-con but I'm not sure yet.
Normally a fake claim would come from scum under duress. A fakemasonclaimingscum might expect to survive unless/until a real mason decided to cc. Which I would argue...a mason should claim for the 1 for 1 exchange of scum and mason which imo results in advantage town.
Enter Gamma's suggestion...VTs should claim mason. This puts the real masons into the quandary of deciding whether a fake claim is from a VT or scum. Masons don't know which it is. They can't discuss amongst themselves because there are no PTs per the mod. Do they cc to get into a 1v1 potentially with a VT? Do they "just wagon that shit" and possibly lynch a VT? All the while helping scum narrow in on them. Under Gamma's suggestion masons should be more likely to not CC and should be LESS likely to "wagon that shit."
How is encouraging VTs to fakeclaim going to help town if it could either result in masons unnecessarily claiming OR provide an umbrella of uncertainty for scum to possibly claim mason and get further in the game?
I see no advantage to encouraging VTs to claim mason (to trick scum into shooting them) when at the same time it opens up the possibility of scum safely fakeclaiming mason to save their ass.
What Gamma's suggestion has also done imo is made a situation where a real mason might feel the need to claim less valid. Under Gamma's suggestion why should town suspect of a player believe a real mason claim?
I'm open to being convinced otherwise but I do not see any value atp in suggesting VTs should fake claim. It's not going to entice scum to shoot said mason claimer (unless scum are idiots) and it only adds fogs up the claim for town.
So please elaborate on how my thought process is off and how my wincon pov is different from yours?
Town claims mason? Doesn't matter if it could come from town or scum. ANYTHING can come from town or scum. It's the default setting.
Scum claims mason? Who the fuck would he fool except himself? Masons know who masons are.
Town possibly lynching a VT would help scum narrow down on who the masons are? VTs claiming VTs would help scum narrow down anyway.
It shouldn't result in masons unnecessarily claiming. And how the fuck does a fakeclaiming scum get further into the game? No he won't.How is encouraging VTs to fakeclaim going to help town if it could either result in masons unnecessarily claiming OR provide an umbrella of uncertainty for scum to possibly claim mason and get further in the game?
No! There is no value in masons claiming. They will just be dead. With a fog, maybe they wouldn't.I'm open to being convinced otherwise but I do not see any value atp in suggesting VTs should fake claim. It's not going to entice scum to shoot said mason claimer (unless scum are idiots) and it only adds fogs up the claim for town.
Again, the town should lynch according to who they believe is town or not — not whoever claims whatever.
Because you're preaching that masons should claim when they never should. You are setting it up by using premises that are invalid.So please elaborate on how my thought process is off and how my wincon pov is different from yours?- humaneatingmonkey
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Almost50 already broke this one. So no.In post 84, CommKnight wrote:Since you guys don't seem to understand the set-up fully and already fucked one plan completely, let's get this out onto the table.
There are NO night kills. Masons and Mafia cannot talk with each other. They may leave hints in some of their posts that the other members of their team will be more observant of.
We can actually force the mafia's hand. Pick one person to be hammer and pick two people to be at L1. If one or both are scum, they'll be forced to use their daykill attempt or completely risk being lynched without attempting one.
We ensure this method works because anyone who steps outside of two people to put at L1 is immediately lynched the next day, no waiting period, no time for scum to decide to attempt their daykills to kill masons, they get lynched for mishammering.
Any objections?
Also, I'm suspicious about your whiteknighting and condescending tone. It's not organic.- humaneatingmonkey
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You got it right. Scum would also fake claim mason anyway to get a CC. The point is nobody should ever claim mason, and that obscuring mason claims are more helpful to town. Everybody should fakeclaim mason at L-1.In post 94, MawhrinSkel wrote:I also don't get how fake claiming helps, masons can't CC or they will get killed, so any scum can also fake claim mason and wont be CC so I have no idea what the point of this is.
If you don't want to be lynched and brought to the point of being lynched, just be town and don't do scum.- humaneatingmonkey
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Yes. Let's just scumhunt. It would be more helpful to obscure the mason claims. Let's take away the mason part of this game and take advantage of the fact that four members of the town have better reads than most of us.In post 99, jzhenson93 wrote:
That would also improve the odds of scum shooting a mason.In post 96, TwoInAMillion wrote:the odds improve as townies are lynched but that's not a winning game plan.
Honestly, as much as having some kind of algorithm to approaching the game would be helpful, I'm not sure that there are any possible plans that would give us a higher probability of winning other than good old fashioned scumhunting. Taking the guesswork out of the game like that greatly reduces the amount of content in thread to draw reads from, allowing scum to hide behind "following the plan."- humaneatingmonkey
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I'm also suspicious of Gamma Emerald's hovering.
Now here's some reads:
INCLINED TO NOT LYNCH:
rb
MawhrinSkel
jzhenson93
INCLINED TO BE SUSPICIOUS AT:
Almost50
INCLINED TO WAGON:
TwoInAMillion
CommKnight
JunkoChan
INCLINED TO FLASHLYNCH:
havingfitz
NOT EVEN PART OF THE GAME YET
Hongzi
mozamis
wavemode- humaneatingmonkey
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Actually, I'm currently brainstorming which default claim should town go for. I think claiming mason would be more alignment indicative for either town or scum, but it would result in town lying and that could fuck up our reads of that person. If everyone was told to claim VT, it has the same fog effect albeit real VTs would not be lying — therefore we can read them better. I was thinking earlier in the perspective that scum claiming masons would spew more bullshit and trap themselves more into the corner. However, it might have the same effect for VTs.
Final suggestion: Everybody should just claim VT instead. No masons should claim. Ever.- humaneatingmonkey
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Why do you think is he just not town who fucked up a strategy?In post 112, Hongzi wrote:
See I read CommKnight's 87 and I knew there was going to be a multiplicative aspect he had left out.In post 90, havingfitz wrote:
Also...odds of picking both scum for the pair are 4/13 * 1/4. I.e. 4/52 OR 1/13. So just under 8% odds.
VOTE: CommKnight- humaneatingmonkey
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I just want to add that anyone who would claim mason = scum — and that we should politely lynch that player. There's no value in masons convincing anyone that they're masons.In post 113, humaneatingmonkey wrote:Final suggestion: Everybody should just claim VT instead. No masons should claim. Ever.- humaneatingmonkey
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You're wrong tho and I'll tell you why tomorrow.In post 119, Almost50 wrote:
I don't like this post. It smells on so many levels. The best interpretation is "Lynch the Masons anyway."In post 116, humaneatingmonkey wrote:In post 113, humaneatingmonkey wrote:I just want to add that anyone who would claim mason = scum — and that we should politely lynch that player. There's no value in masons convincing anyone that they're masons.
You see, if a someone claims Mason the Masons will know if it's legit. However, chances are they won't be on the wagon to start with, so this is directed at the VTs in an attempt to plant the idea that a claim doesn't mean shit and they should go ahead and lynch anyway.
I will try to explain in details: X is a Mason being wagoned. His fellow Masons are trying to stay off the Wagon. If he gets lynched they're probably screwed, but without them there's a good chance he won't be lynched.
If he is pushed enough and put to L-1 he would claim, and it should convince the VTs to unvote, but he would be shot anyway.
HOWEVER, if X was a VT and claimed a Mason and was unvoted, Scum would be shooting him, and it would backfire on them..THIS is what humaneatingmonkey is trying to avoid
So, the post actually translates: "Lynch anyway, so we don't have to risk shooting them."
2 Scums down, 2 more to go.- humaneatingmonkey
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What kind of cunt do you need to be to make availability alignment indicative? This guy's reaching.In post 193, Almost50 wrote:I am especially concerned about the "Lynch anyway regardless of the claim" concept, and even more so the response I got for pointing it out. "You're wrong and I'll tel you why tomorrow"? Why tomorrow? Why not on the spot?
I didn't even tell anyone to "lynch anyway regardless of the claim." I said no one should be claiming mason. I said there's no value for the masons to do it. So mason claims should be a cause for lynch.
I'm back now. Long wall post followed by small posts and groaning complains of how hyperactive of a player I am.- humaneatingmonkey
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In the discussion of CommieKnight being a town who fucked up a strategy vs. faking a townslip while simultaneously trying to advocate an anti-town agenda:
I think it's more likely for scum to bend the town than to break it, yeah? Especially this early. Also, Occam's Razor. I find CK's proposal to be more plausible to come from town than scum. But it's in the uncanny valley of WIFOM so it's more null for me.
Okay let's move on. Here are some truths:
1. Masons gets killed when shot. Decreasing our numbers, making it easier to shoot other masons. Not to mention, associative tells exist. It is important for us to conceal the identity of our masons.
2. VTs kills Mafia when shot. This produces a fear for scum to refrain from killing until masons drop some tells.
My solution:
Masons and VTs should both claim VTs, regardless of role.
Why?
1. We need to maximize use of the fear the scum has. If they can't trust VT claims, their margin of error and paranoia will go through the roof.
2. Masons don't need to claim mason. Here is the leading excuse to why masons should claim: counterclaiming. Alright, let's run that scenario. Scum fakeclaims mason. Should masons counterclaim? No. You will die. And probably your friends will die too. Instead, you just. You have 4 guys who knows this cunt is lying. They will produce reads that will reflect this. Hopefully, the existence of masons don't curb the average player's scumhunting skills and fuck it up for everybody. If masons counterclaim, who will confirm that counterclaim? Other masons? Then that's very stupid. They will die too.Code: Select all
wagon that shit
3. Masons—VT—whatever. They're both town. Just claim town. The only difference masons have is being more fragile and having better reads than most town. Masons shouldn't rely on claiming for their towniness to be apparent. If the goal is to save themselves, they're fucking that up by claiming won't they?
4. If someone claims mason, then it's almost apparent that it's a scum gambit.
5. VTs shouldn't claim Mason because that would be lying. Lies will make you sketchy and difficult to read as town — causing your lynch. Don't cause your lynch.
Almost50's spin:
Wrong. Didn't say this. You made that spin. And it's based on wrong assumptions anyway.In post 119, Almost50 wrote: I don't like this post. It smells on so many levels. The best interpretation is "Lynch the Masons anyway."
Well, if masons claim to save themselves from the bandwagon, they would have done more damage to their faction. Anyone should just go ahead and lynch a claiming mason because it doesn't make too much of a sense for masons to claim. They should do as much as they can to conceal it up until the flip.In post 119, Almost50 wrote:You see, if a someone claims Mason the Masons will know if it's legit. However, chances are they won't be on the wagon to start with, so this is directed at the VTs in an attempt to plant the idea that a claim doesn't mean shit and they should go ahead and lynch anyway.
Yes. He'll probably get killed instead. Duh.In post 119, Almost50 wrote:I will try to explain in details: X is a Mason being wagoned. His fellow Masons are trying to stay off the Wagon. If he gets lynched they're probably screwed, but without them there's a good chance he won't be lynched.
Correct. So you have no point.In post 119, Almost50 wrote:If he is pushed enough and put to L-1 he would claim, and it should convince the VTs to unvote, but he would be shot anyway.
Wrong. We're already doing this fog of uncertainty and scum paranoia by asking everyone to claim VT instead. And hasty malicious assumption, jesus.In post 119, Almost50 wrote:HOWEVER, if X was a VT and claimed a Mason and was unvoted, Scum would be shooting him, and it would backfire on them..THIS is what humaneatingmonkey is trying to avoid
Shitty translation, brother.In post 119, Almost50 wrote:So, the post actually translates: "Lynch anyway, so we don't have to risk shooting them."- humaneatingmonkey
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CommKnight town
TwoInAMillion town
MawhrinSkel town
mozamis town
Hongzi town
Almost50 probtown
wavemode null
rb nullscum
JunkoChan* probscum
jzhenson93 probscum
havingfitz probscum
Gamma Emerald probscum
I don't like how JunkoChan started the game.
I don't like how jzhenson93 have reads that are totally inorganic.
I don't like how havingfitz preaches masons claiming like it's inconsequential and without repercussions. Like it's a safe thing to do.
I don't like how Gamma Emerald is delaying to share with the game when he has posts that shows he's reacting organically. I think it's conflicting to what his mindset seems to be. I haven't seen this version Gamma Emerald yet so I'm suspicious about it.
rb is not rb this game.
Almost50 seems honest but sometimes it feels like a facade.- humaneatingmonkey
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If this is true, then you're not in the same game as everyone else.In post 192, Almost50 wrote:@Everyone: Am I the only one suspecting HuEMo? I don't understand the TRs on him. I can maybe understand being Null on the slot (as in being confused and being able to decide), but I don't see what he gets TR'd so far. Can anyone help me?- humaneatingmonkey
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Okay good nightIn post 216, jzhenson93 wrote:
Popping in tonight to address this, giving things a re-read tomorrow morning to see what comes of it.In post 213, humaneatingmonkey wrote:VOTE: jzhenson93
I don't like how this guy is approaching this game at all. He's an alt account, right?
I was on mafiascum when I was in high school and, even though I really enjoy playing mafia, I didn't have a mature enough handle on managing my time and ended up chronically replacing out of games.
Now that I'm done with my master's and settling into a more stable schedule, I came back to the site to get back into mafia as a hobby. So I guess you could call me an alt, but there's no main account with sizeable enough experience to really matter.- humaneatingmonkey
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It might also conceal you better because people will have more cause to put you in their townbloc. If apparently you're acting scummy but you're still in the townbloc of some 5 player, that's a major associative tell that will kill your faction. Make it easier for everyone to put you into a townblock without them reaching so goddamn much.In post 219, humaneatingmonkey wrote:I also want everyone to towntell as much as they can. If you're mason, don't be afraid of being too town. They won't know the difference.- humaneatingmonkey
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I'm not an alt. We played a game together. Or I replaced out from a game we were both playing together but I was still reading it after.
Meta is a tool, buddy. What can I say? Notice how I'm not even trying to prosecute you for it. Go ahead and play however you like. Come on. I'm just watching. But if you're trying to hide an agenda, that will sure show.
Moving on. On Gamma's replace out sentiment: I hate when people do this. But it's NAI. But notice how he has done nothing AI of town in his ISO yet.
Happy birthday, Junko-chan! Why is this the scummiest post in this thread? Please explain your abandoned plan and why you think scum would hammer this soon in the game.In post 229, JunkoChan wrote:To be honest I got so behind in this thread that Idk where to start (I did read all of it and basicly monkeymonkey took over the leading position while making a enormous amount of readings I agree with this list, (sorry again for inactivity) I had a whole plan around my first few posts but it's too late for that I think the fact that Gamma wasn't hammered yet means that he is either a mason or scum and I'm inclined to believe that he is scum.
I'm willing to join the wagon once you guys feel confortable with ending the day.- humaneatingmonkey
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I'm cool. Imagine me as some cheeky loud joker than some hotheaded gorilla. Cunt is a term of endearment.
Reads change. It's not some progression of some sort. I just found jzhenson on my second reading to be quite of a reacher. His observations were not one I would think would come organically from someone who is reading the thread with no info whatsoever. Instead, it came to me that he could be scum trying to look like he's scumhunting but not really having the skill to pull off making them seem like they're coming from town.
Before, I placed him in the not lynching block because I thought "oh wow guy's using logic must be town!" but then I reevaluated that scum would likely use logic to ironclad their attacks and not seem like scum.- humaneatingmonkey
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Why are you trying to make it seem like I'm a hot lynch option when I never was? I'm not stupid. I've been obvtown the whole game. Your insistence is suspicious.In post 317, Almost50 wrote:He could have voted either Comm or Monkey, but he opted to start a new wagon on Junko.- humaneatingmonkey
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- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 11437
- Joined: June 7, 2017
- humaneatingmonkey
-
humaneatingmonkey Survivor
- humaneatingmonkey
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 11437
- Joined: June 7, 2017
To base a strong townread on Gamma in such wild wild speculation, almost crackpot reasoning, and oh my god a lot of assumptions? Occam be razor-happy.
Also, I know you're not a mason. So stop softing it.
P-EDIT:
Why is this question relevant to why Gamma is automatically VT from a kill we all had no solid clue about?Like why would Gamma shoot you or me? What's the benefit for him/his team if either of us flipped? Apply the same question to every other slot until you find the likely target(s) from your PoV
Weren't you here when jz hopped of the wagon?I don't get how Gamma was a valid lynch when jz was voting him, stayed a valid lynch when a counter wagon formed on jz, and is still a valid lynch after jz flipped Scum! How does that work? What's the use of learning jz was Scum anyway? Why don't we just play this as a flipless game then?
Also, I think you're better at mafia than I am. What's up with these bad trains of thought? Are you actually scum?
The use of jz flipping was to get associative reads, vote count analysis, and basic scumhunting tools that we all grew up and loved. That's why we're lynching Gamma too. I don't get you. - humaneatingmonkey
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