Open 703: Masons and Mafia Town Win!

[Almost50]

VOTE: almost50

I'm ageist.

You need exactly 999,998 more in order for your vote to be counted.

[Almost50]

11 is one of my favorite numbers

VOTE: havingfitz

VOTE: Hongzi

Get off the hero that won the previous game for the town (as in the last game we played together, not the same setup)

[Almost50]

Has anyone played this setup before?

Not I.

[Almost50]

VOTE: jenshenVOTE:

VOTE: jzhenson

Only a scumster would finnesse on a vote.

[Almost50]

Hi I never played this setup before. What's the best strategy for town?

Try to lynch scum, of course!

[Almost50]

If you are mason, don't claim because scum have daykill and if they target a non-mason, they die.

OK. I claim a Mason.

[Almost50]

So it's whoever gets caught piggybacking and not voting certain players lose? Because there are imaginary "blocs" that move against each other. What do you think the scum's first move is?

I think they start off asking some really weird stuff. maybe.

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

Partially bc your questions feel weird, but also bc you're eating me brother.

[Almost50]

Tips on how to differentiate VT play, mason play, and scum play? I'm guessing basic tells don't apply here because both key groups will be acting scummy.

Hmmmm....

UNVOTE:

[Almost50]

It's beneficial for everyone to just fake being a mason, right? The masons would know who aren't masons, VT would draw a scumkill, and scum would have trouble looking for who the masons are.

I did. No. Wait! I didn't fake it. I really am a mason with you. Did you not get the mod PM?

*Goes to check in inbox*

OH SHIT! That was the MAFIA team list. My bad.

[Almost50]

repeat to infinity

^ This is to everyone talking about faking being a mason. Congrats on making sure scum don't fall for it. Should give yourselves a pat on the back.

Come now. Everybody claiming a Mason is either really a Mason or is faking. Those faking it are either Town or Scum. Scum know who they are Masons know who they are. So if we're talking about "faking" the claim Scum won't know it's fake for a fact and Masons won't be able to tell if it's a Town gambit or a Scum one.

I suggest we lynch the firs person who claims a Mason because they maybe Scum & gambiting.

WAIT! Did I claim Mason? Scratch the lynch suggestion. Let's the SECOND person who claims instead.

Also, how good are you at shooting as SCUM?? We're counting on you.

[Almost50]

A50 is probably town?

Probably is right. The exact probabilities are 4:5:4 (TM:VT:S). However those are the odds from an outsider's PoV. Depending on your own role it could be 100% (if you're also a Mason with me), 0% (if you're Scum with me), or 4:4:4 if you're just a VT.

No need for applause.. really. I know I'm always impressive with those probabilities.

[Almost50]

repeat to infinity

^ This is to everyone talking about faking being a mason. Congrats on making sure scum don't fall for it. Should give yourselves a pat on the back.

Come now. Everybody claiming a Mason is either really a Mason or is faking. Those faking it are either Town or Scum. Scum know who they are Masons know who they are. So if we're talking about "faking" the claim Scum won't know it's fake for a fact and Masons won't be able to tell if it's a Town gambit or a Scum one.

I suggest we lynch the firs person who claims a Mason because they maybe Scum & gambiting.

WAIT! Did I claim Mason? Scratch the lynch suggestion. Let's the SECOND person who claims instead.

Also, how good are you at shooting as SCUM?? We're counting on you.

???? ??? ?? ? ?? I think Imma policy lynch just to be safe.

VOTE: Almost50

Are we going political now?? Are you a Democrat or a Republican?

[Almost50]

Tips on how to differentiate VT play, mason play, and scum play? I'm guessing basic tells don't apply here because both key groups will be acting scummy.

Hmmmm....

UNVOTE:

Why did you unvote here?

If you have to ask then I got the wrong message! *Scratches head*

[Almost50]

Because i dont wanna have to try and mentally pronounce that name to myself all game

Blame Godel.
Btw in case Godel didn't make this public before-hand, this is a teaching hydra. I'm here to help Godel, so this is like 95% a Godel-game.

And you are ...???

[Almost50]

That's it. I'm never gonna vote fitz ever in this game.

[Almost50]

Since you guys don't seem to understand the set-up fully and already fucked one plan completely, let's get this out onto the table.

There are NO night kills. Masons and Mafia cannot talk with each other. They may leave hints in some of their posts that the other members of their team will be more observant of.

We can actually force the mafia's hand. Pick one person to be hammer and pick two people to be at L1. If one or both are scum, they'll be forced to use their daykill attempt or completely risk being lynched without attempting one.

We ensure this method works because anyone who steps outside of two people to put at L1 is immediately lynched the next day, no waiting period, no time for scum to decide to attempt their daykills to kill masons, they get lynched for mishammering.

Any objections?

Let me tell you what I did understand (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

1- You want to run 2 random players up to L-1
2- You want to pick a random player to be the one to decide between the two
3- You think that will force the scum of the two (or both if they're both scum) to shoot

Hmmm... this looks like a good plan on face value, but I need to take my time thinking about the probabilities.. like what if both players we wagon are Town? And what if the hammerer we choose is Scum?

[Almost50]

OK, so if I had to do the picks myself... wagon Comm & Jz and have 2InAMill be hammerer.

Any objections?

[Almost50]

^That is judging by responses to Comm's plan, btw.

[Almost50]

That's why I suggested Comm to be one of the two wagons

Comm's plan had me PMing the mod for clarification, as Comm stating "they'll be forced to use their daykill attempt or completely risk being lynched without attempting one." had me wondering if I misunderstood and the goons each were 1-shot. (otherwise "risk being lynched without attempting one" makes no sense).

The response I got confirms any goon can shoot any number of times throughout the game (provided -of course- they're not shooting a VT), so Scum can strategically sacrifice 3 goons in order to identify the Masons and the one surviving goon could still win the game for them.

As such, the Comm plan becomes obviously flawed and is indeed an attempt to identify "who's willing to vote whom".

VOTE: CommKnight

[Almost50]

Let's all wagon Comm and :force him to shoot or risk bla bla bla"

[Almost50]

@almost50 while I agree it was a stupid plan wouldn't the goons know that they aren't 1 shot from their role PM, and thus wouldn't make such a statement to me this makes me more likely to think comm is a townie

Yeah, but he started with the assumption we

do not understand the setup

. which he probably is more or less correct about it, so if one doesn't fully understand and just goes along with the plan on the false assumption each goon can only shoot once then it pays off.

Also, you're overlooking the main point: "Let's wagon 2 players". <<THIS is where the trick is. Scum won't wagon one of theirs, and Mason won't wagon one of theirs either. Masons though won't be able to tell because they don't know the alignment of the player being wagoned unless they're a Mason, while the Scum will be able to tell.

Like, if X is being wagoned and they're a Mason. I could either vote them or not, and Masons won't be able to tell if I'm a VT SRing their buddy or Scum pushing for a mislynch. Any VT won't be able to tell my alignment either because they don't even know X's alignment). SCUM -however- will know X is "not scum", and can observe and assess the manner I approach the wagon, so if X gets lynched and flips a Mason they'd be able to tell if I was their Mason buddy or not.

You know what? I'll put it in the simplest was ever: Masons are a "town friendly 3P group". Unlike Scum they do NOT need to "bus" for Town!cred, so if I was Scum and a Mason gets lynched I'd probably be shooting outside of the wagon.

This does apply to every wagon, BUT Comm is suggesting we wagon TWO players simultaneoulsy, which gives Scum "double speed" on spotting everyone's voting behaviour.

If you still fail to see my point then it's most probably my problem. I'm not sure though how to present my case any clearer.

[Almost50]

Upon a reread of the game it looks like I missed responding to a couple of posts

@almost50 while I agree it was a stupid plan wouldn't the goons know that they aren't 1 shot from their role PM, and thus wouldn't make such a statement to me this makes me more likely to think comm is a townie

If this had come from anyone else but Godel I'd probably be suspicious of them. However, I only played you once in that cannibals game so I'm giving you the benefit of doubt. Also, if you thought you needed a mentor to play the game you probably are sincere in expressing doubt here, so I guess I owe you and explanation:

Since you guys don't seem to understand the set-up fully and already fucked one plan completely, let's get this out onto the table.

This was the prelude for Comm's proposition. Does it sound like he's expressing any doubt or lack of knowledge? Because it sounds to me that he is being overconfident I would have fell for it if I didn't know better.

Does Comm fake confidence as Town when he's not sure? Absolutely not. What Comm would have done was contact the mod (just as I did) if he wasn't sure.

Again: Comm is suggesting he knows the setup better than mos/all of us, yet he made a basic mistake in his proposition than can only come from an ignorant Townie. Conclusion: Comm was

faking

a townslip, while simultaneously trying to advocate an anti-town agenda.

This is Scum!Comm (I know Town!Comm well enough)

That's it. I'm never gonna vote fitz ever in this game.

Why?

I'm also gonna give some space, but I need to note this is "posturing" and doesn't look good for you, as it's self-evident I hard TR fitz for his overall posting, and especially for his #80 which had just preceded my quoted declaration. Do you really think it needed explanation?

Fuck, I really meant TwoInAMillion when I said CommKnight.

I liked you better when you were voting Comm, as TwoInAMillion's #87 was him actually refuting Comm's #84. It even started with:

I don't see how this will force scum to do anything.

Which implies TIAM doesn't approve of Comm's proposed plan (and if I understand correct you agree with fitz' #902 which you quoted when you voted Comm, and fitz was basically also arguing against Comm's plan)

I just want to add that anyone who would claim mason = scum — and that we should politely lynch that player. There's no value in masons convincing anyone that they're masons.

I don't like this post. It smells on so many levels. The best interpretation is "Lynch the Masons anyway."

You see, if a someone claims Mason the Masons will know if it's legit. However, chances are they won't be on the wagon to start with, so this is directed at the VTs in an attempt to plant the idea that a claim doesn't mean shit and they should go ahead and lynch anyway.

I will try to explain in details: X is a Mason being wagoned. His fellow Masons are trying to stay off the Wagon. If he gets lynched they're probably screwed, but without them there's a good chance he won't be lynched.

If he is pushed enough and put to L-1 he would claim, and it should convince the VTs to unvote, but he would be shot anyway.

HOWEVER, if X was a VT and claimed a Mason and was unvoted, Scum would be shooting him, and it would backfire on them.

THIS is what humaneatingmonkey is trying to avoid

.

So, the post actually translates: "Lynch anyway, so we don't have to risk shooting them."

2 Scums down, 2 more to go.

[Almost50]

I'm of the opinion we should apply Comm's plan now, but under these simple conditions:

1- The two wagons would be on Comm & humaneatingmonkey
2- The hammerer is either fitz or rb (my top 2 TRs)

[Almost50]

I have half a mind to quit this game already just because I already suspect almost everyone

You realize this is you confessing you're both incompetent and a quitter?? I didn't know that! Thanks for the info.

[Almost50]

A50, It seems you missed the last post I made. I'm saying that I don't feel like I can properly organize the actual suspicion from me being cheesed off at certain things.

Why can't you try harder? I mean this IS the game of Mafia, right? You are clueless (if you're Town) and you try to figure things out, while Scum try to confuse you and lead you astray.

Also, I hate the very concept of joining a game then replacing out. It's a matter of respect to your fellow players as well as the mod IMHO. I'd understand if you had something unpredictable popping up IRL, or if you got into a quarrel with someone that it became toxic for the two of you to be in the same game.. I WOULD appreciate that, but replacing out because you're confused just doesn't qualify as a valid reason to quit a game you willingly signed up to and have us wait for a replacement.

So, regardless of you alignment I really hope you stay and try to play the game (and if you're Town I hope you help us win it too).

[Almost50]

@Comm: I'll sleep on your "disclaimer" for now (literally . I hope by the time I wake up that you would have done something that convinces me that you're Town and that it was indeed an honest mistake. And YES, I do mow you're dangerous to Scum

if you're Town

, and I assume you would also be dangerous to Town if you're Scum, so ... ??

OK. I', off to bed. See you in 10 hours (give or take). Let's see what you got by then.

@All: For anyone who doesn't know me, check either (or both) games Comm finished modding already (they're in his signature). I was Town in both, but I really wouldn't say that my Scum game is much different. I'm CRAZY either way, as you might conclude when you do read these 2 games)

P.S. Those who know me may skip reading these games if so they choose. It's probably nothing you haven't seen from me before.

[Almost50]

So far..

Town/Townish: havingfitz-rb-TwoInAMillion-Gamma Emerald-MawhrinSkel (in that order)

Null: JunkoChan-mozamis-wavemode-jzhenson93 (in no particular order)

Scummy: Hongzi-CommKnight-humaneatingmonkey (from least suspicious to most suspicious)

[Almost50]

Hongi rejoins the null block (up from slight scum). The reason I was Sring the slot was their previous/opening 5 posts had not much substance to them, so they looked like busy work. 162 though clearly shows he did a thorough read of the game and while it doesn't earn him a TR it -at least- erases the effect of the previous posts.

Moz is also getting better, so I'm considering moving him up one notch to become my 6th town lean, but I probably need to look at a previous game with him to refresh my memory about his play.

@Moz: I kept trying to remember where we played together last. It finally hit me that it was in that Persivul game where I lost my temper and subbed out for the very first time in my Mafia history (and so far the only one, so let's keep our fingers crossed it stays that way).

Anyway, I finally found my way to that game thread so I'm going to read it again sometime soon before I can decide on your slot, but feel free to keep posting as it should help me get a better read.

[Almost50]

@Com:
Here's a tricky one: How would you read your own play so far if you didn't know your alignment and assuming you were someone else reading your posts?

@Everyone voting Gamma:
I felt his "I want to replace out" bit was sincere and that he was really confused and frustrated as he couldn't form reads. Would it not have been more convenient for Scum!Gamma to fake some reads or something, rather than expressing his frustration in the manner he did?

[Almost50]

Mozamis looks more town now, i like his logic for the most part.

Yeah, I think I'm leaning towards Town!Moz. Town /=right though, and I don't want to push Gamma too hard before he had time to readjust and form some reads.

Btw

Spoiler: (this has nothing to do with the game)

why do we have deadlines in this game? There's no night phase and Scum can submit multiple kills at any given time they deem fit, so deadlines are nothing (they just reset the VC and everyone can revote the same person anyway)

[Almost50]

I don't think anyone who signs up for a mafia game should want to replace out within the first 10 pages, if at all, so it seems like he was trying to gain attention on purpose to me, which seems anti-town.

Who says gaining attention is anti-town behaviour? It's commonly considered a town!tell, and at worst NAI (it is NAI for me bc it's NAI for me, if you get the pun)

[Almost50]

Hmm...

UNVOTE:

I'm disappointed in your response, Comm, but it's probably because you're town (I said PROBABLY, so I'm not saying you ARE).

You probably misunderstood my question though, as I wasn't trying to push you further or trick you into justifying my initial read on your slot. It was a mere attempt at getting you to analyze your own play and spot what was missing there for me to realize you're town if you really are.

Your response though feels like you are disappointed, which could very well come from Town!You having hoped to work with me, or could be Scum!You assuming I would have automatically TR'd you. I'm leaning the former right now, but not totally excluding the latter.

[Almost50]

@Everyone: Am I the only one suspecting HuEMo? I don't understand the TRs on him. I can maybe understand being Null on the slot (as in being confused and being able to decide), but I don't see what he gets TR'd so far. Can anyone help me?

[Almost50]

I am especially concerned about the "Lynch anyway regardless of the claim" concept, and even more so the response I got for pointing it out. "You're wrong and I'll tel you why tomorrow"? Why tomorrow? Why not on the spot?

[Almost50]

@Gamma: Let me know when you finally realize I'm Town here. Yeah, I know my Scum and Town games look quite the same to you, as you SR my play as either alignment, but I figure you've played enough games with me to have developed some gut sensor to make you at least lean either way.

[Almost50]

'Scum'? Or 'Scum!GAMMA'?? That's the difference. I can tell you when RC threatens to replace out and doesn't that's a Scum!tell of his, while if he does rage quit his slot is Town. But that is RC-specific. In my experience Gamma doesn't threaten to replace out as Scum, and besides he was not under any pressure when he expressed those feelings.

[Almost50]

Looking at the posting activity and don't like that Comm makes his proposal, only has 2 total posts so far, and has pretty much silent since people point out it isn't good.

VOTE: CommKnight

what's your updated opinion based on his explanation? (he works, he gap in activity isn't that long afaik)

Could be true, but more than likely he's just being reactive and making an excuse.

This seems unreasonable tbh, he was gone less than 12 hours. Other people have had gaps that long in their posts, why is it only relevant for CK somehow?

Like, are you arguing for or against Comm now? I'm confused.

Also, where do you stand on Gamma?

[Almost50]

In case you hadn't notice, this is early day 1 and reads may not be as strong as they would be, say, later in the game. We have to form our reads based on something.

Who are you replying to?

[Almost50]

@HEM: Let's cool down and be civilized. This a game of Mafia, not a bar fight. Ok?

Now please explain to me the following like I'm 5:

I'm also suspicious of Gamma Emerald's hovering.

Now here's some reads:

INCLINED TO NOT LYNCH:

rb
MawhrinSkel

jzhenson93

INCLINED TO BE SUSPICIOUS AT:
Almost50

INCLINED TO WAGON:
TwoInAMillion
CommKnight
JunkoChan

INCLINED TO FLASHLYNCH:
havingfitz

NOT EVEN PART OF THE GAME YET
Hongzi
mozamis
wavemode

VOTE: jzhenson93

I don't like how this guy is approaching this game at all. He's an alt account, right?

CommKnight town
TwoInAMillion town
MawhrinSkel town
mozamis town
Hongzi town

Almost50 probtown

wavemode null

rb nullscum

JunkoChan* probscum

jzhenson93 probscum

havingfitz probscum
Gamma Emerald probscum

I don't like how JunkoChan started the game.
I don't like how jzhenson93 have reads that are totally inorganic.
I don't like how havingfitz preaches masons claiming like it's inconsequential and without repercussions. Like it's a safe thing to do.
I don't like how Gamma Emerald is delaying to share with the game when he has posts that shows he's reacting organically. I think it's conflicting to what his mindset seems to be. I haven't seen this version Gamma Emerald yet so I'm suspicious about it.

rb is not rb this game.

Almost50 seems honest but sometimes it feels like a facade.

I've highlighted the object of my question. Exactly what has changed between you #111 & your #213 that prompted that reversal in you read on jz, taking into account he only posted the 2 posts to be found in the spoiler between your those two points.

Spoiler: Show me the light, bro!

I find it difficult to get reads from speculating about the strategy. It's essentially a logic puzzle, and while people can be bad at solving a logic puzzle, analyzing it has very little to do with your alignment. Scum can easily join in on that discussion without having to give anything away. I said this before, but I think there are much more interesting discussions to be had.

I'm kinda offput by the amount of pushback Comm is receiving but A50 has some sound reasoning in his most recent post so I'll think on it a bit.

Like with this post. It's so noncommittal, and reads almost like "I want to have a say in this discussion but I'm not sure where it's gonna go so I'll chime in here and wait it out." A scummy take on (as I see it) a fruitless dialogue.

UNVOTE: rb
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

VOTE: jzhenson93

I don't like how this guy is approaching this game at all. He's an alt account, right?

Popping in tonight to address this, giving things a re-read tomorrow morning to see what comes of it.

I was on mafiascum when I was in high school and, even though I really enjoy playing mafia, I didn't have a mature enough handle on managing my time and ended up chronically replacing out of games.

Now that I'm done with my master's and settling into a more stable schedule, I came back to the site to get back into mafia as a hobby. So I guess you could call me an alt, but there's no main account with sizeable enough experience to really matter.

[Almost50]

Thank you.

I think I feel a little bot better about HEM right now. Not by much, but enough to move on.

Ironically, the next subject on my list IS jz, so I'ma put my vote on there and hope to get something fruitful out of it. If not, I'm likely to turn on my turbo-lynching engines on in order to see a flip and be able to reevaluate my reads.

VOTE: jzhenson93

[Almost50]

@Hongzi, 2iam, jzhenson:

why are you voting me?

They're probably my Scum partners and are doing it as a payback for your vote on me.

Spoiler:

Oh, shit! I forgot I've just voted jz myself, but it can always be attributed to distancing, so hopefully nobody would notice!

[Almost50]

Keep those scum jokes coming, A50. If you flip scum, you'll be pissing your buddies off.

If anyone wants to know, I prefer MONKEY over HEM.

That's an IF, and I know it to be a false proposition. The problem though is if one of them flips Scum before I flip.

Btw, I was focused on asking you about the jz read I forgot to comment on the "everybody should claim VT bit".

You see, Scum will do it too, and then anyone claiming WILL be lynched anyway, so it's no different than you claiming whoever claimed Mason should be lynched. Once someone is lynched they will flip and we will know if they were Masons regardless, so the associatives point is moot.

The advantage of claiming Mason upon your lynch though is that the Masons will know if it's true or false, so anyone "faking" Mason should be lynched. It doesn't have to be on the spot though. Masons can sill unvote and pretend to be clueless and then fins a way to discredit the claim later on. The advantage they get here is to let a known Scum live longer for associatives with their fellow Scum.

In short, Masons should claim if put @L-1 and intent was stated. It doesn't matter if they get shot by then. because if they don't they will be lynched anyway.

Vts should claim VTs and it's up to everyone to evaluate the claim. They're likely to still get lynched too. but then everyone else was truly clueless about their alignment so no associatives there.

Scum will have to choose between claiming VT and still getting lynched or claiming Masons and confirming themselves to the true Masons.

We're back to the basics. "Town have no reason to lie" applies in this game more than usual.

[Almost50]

why isn't 2iam stronger?

He's a naughty child who never eats his vegetables nor drinks his milk, that's why!

[Almost50]

The question wasn't directed at me though!

[Almost50]

It feels like you're trying to discredit my attempts to interrogate people.

Sorry if that's how it felt. I was only trying to make the game more enjoyable for everyone. I'll back off now, but I reserve the right to respond to everyone else's posts in any manner I deem fit.

[Almost50]

Who's the scum in it?

I know you didn't ask me, but I want to answer this (in a serious manner) so here's how I see it:

If Gamma flips Town I'd be most suspicious of jz, then you. I'm leaning Town on Maz and 2IAM and I'm fairly confident fitz is Town.

[Almost50]

@Gamma: Well, please do take a look at jz asap, bc that's where I rally want to look now. If it helps, I've quoted everything he had to say thus far in the following spoiler:

Spoiler: All 6 posts jz made so far

VOTE: Twoinamillion

The phrase is "one in a million" ... sounds like he must have a conspiracy to stack the odds in his favor. What organization would have enough power to do that? The mafia.

I rest my case.

Why is erratic posting scummy?

Seems more like a town trait at this stage of _the game_

I don't like this post. Erratic posting isn't a scumtell, but the same logic that shoots that down would also lead you to believe that isn't not a town tell either. Because the logic doesn't seem to be coherent, it feels disingenous.

UNVOTE: Twoinamillion
VOTE: rb

Since you guys don't seem to understand the set-up fully and already fucked one plan completely, let's get this out onto the table.

There are NO night kills. Masons and Mafia cannot talk with each other. They may leave hints in some of their posts that the other members of their team will be more observant of.

We can actually force the mafia's hand. Pick one person to be hammer and pick two people to be at L1. If one or both are scum, they'll be forced to use their daykill attempt or completely risk being lynched without attempting one.

We ensure this method works because anyone who steps outside of two people to put at L1 is immediately lynched the next day, no waiting period, no time for scum to decide to attempt their daykills to kill masons, they get lynched for mishammering.

Any objections?

I like this thought process, but I'm not sure it's completely foolproof. It could lead us to "clear" people undeservedly (like if we happen to put two scum at L-1, or scum uses the hammer to bus).

the odds improve as townies are lynched but that's not a winning game plan.

That would also improve the odds of scum shooting a mason.

Honestly, as much as having some kind of algorithm to approaching the game would be helpful, I'm not sure that there are any possible plans that would give us a higher probability of winning other than good old fashioned scumhunting. Taking the guesswork out of the game like that greatly reduces the amount of content in thread to draw reads from, allowing scum to hide behind "following the plan."

I find it difficult to get reads from speculating about the strategy. It's essentially a logic puzzle, and while people can be bad at solving a logic puzzle, analyzing it has very little to do with your alignment. Scum can easily join in on that discussion without having to give anything away. I said this before, but I think there are much more interesting discussions to be had.

I'm kinda offput by the amount of pushback Comm is receiving but A50 has some sound reasoning in his most recent post so I'll think on it a bit.

Like with this post. It's so noncommittal, and reads almost like "I want to have a say in this discussion but I'm not sure where it's gonna go so I'll chime in here and wait it out." A scummy take on (as I see it) a fruitless dialogue.

UNVOTE: rb
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

VOTE: jzhenson93

I don't like how this guy is approaching this game at all. He's an alt account, right?

Popping in tonight to address this, giving things a re-read tomorrow morning to see what comes of it.

I was on mafiascum when I was in high school and, even though I really enjoy playing mafia, I didn't have a mature enough handle on managing my time and ended up chronically replacing out of games.

Now that I'm done with my master's and settling into a more stable schedule, I came back to the site to get back into mafia as a hobby. So I guess you could call me an alt, but there's no main account with sizeable enough experience to really matter.

[Almost50]

Well, I could be wrong of course, as I'm well known to peg one scum and hard defend another on D1 but I think Gamma is Town.

However, here are the last 2 games I played with him:

Town!Gamma
Scum!Gamma
(Actually I was the MOD on the 2nd one, not a player)

[Almost50]

ROTFL!

Comm's #282 post he could have ever made, but -unfortunately- I don' think anyone else will see what I see even if I tried to explain.

OK, Comm. You're Town (although if you checked my latest read list in .. oh, shit! I tried to ISO myself to find my updated read list and found that I didn't post one!)

Ok, never mind.. if you check my #191 where I unvoted you, I clearly said at the bottom that I was already leaning Town on you judging by your #190. (But thanks for the reassurance. I really appreciate it).

On other news:

I can see Gamma flipping Scum, but it's only associative (me and my crazy conspiracy theory stuff).

The latest jz move could be attributed to having voted Gamma for distancing and then getting stick o the wagon as it gained momentum. As soon as it started to lose momentun and a wagon was starting to form on jz himself he abandoned the Gamma wagon and started a new one on Junko

So if (erm.. when!) jz flips red I'd be more suspicious of Gamma, but only when jz does flip red. If Gamma flips red also then I'd be willing to call Junko Town (again, ONLY after both jz & Gamma flip red).

HOWEVER, in the unfortunate event of jz flipping Town it means jack shot in terms of me changing reads on most anyone else.

Finally, before I forget again.. here's my latest read list (current as of NOW)

Town: havingfitz-CommKnight-rb-TwoInAMillion-mozamis
Null-Town: Gamma Emerald-JunkoChan
Mixed zone: MawhrinSkel-Hongzi-humaneatingmonkey
Need more or you're expendable: wavemode
Scum: jzhenson93

[Almost50]

VOTE: Junko

I believe I've actually been able to narrow the scum pool down to 6 players already. Pending on Junko's flip I'll push one at a time.

@Comm: You said to work together, so why don't you vote with me for now? We need to compare our readlists (We seem to agree on Gamma, but that's about the only slot I know we agree on).

@Everyone else:

I guess I do owe you an explanation. Comm IS indeed very good with the Vig role, and we do work together very well too. We have never been Scum in games we played together. (Those are facts. I could even try to ink you with a Dayless game we played where he was he Vig and I had virtually no powers, yet we somehow managed to peg and shoot down the whole Scum team. If you have easy access to that game, Comm, please link)

What I got from Comm's tone was that he got disappointed I SR'd him as he was looking forward to playing with me (and I mean

with

, not just in the same game). You think that could be WIFOM and he is actually trying some reverse psychology on me? Fine.

P-edit: Woohoo! I see we lynch a Scumster already! Or did they just try to shoot a VT? I'll go read.
The thing is I feel his last plea could not have come from Scum him. Why? Because he is a combative player, and is not going H2H with someone. He is also competitive enough to know it will get him even more SR'd by those who don't know him, and Scum!Comm naturally would not want to be SR'd by a majority, so while you may think he was trying to buddy me I'd say he is better than this and he could've stayed in my null zone for now and worked on the Scum win-con still.

BUT, the fact Comm is competitive, and knows that I know that he can be quite an asset to Town, he wanted to be sure we worked together to ensure maximum revenue from our collective play.

Feel free to take my explanation or leave it, but I really really would have expected Comm to be more confrontational and a bit more aggressive towards me if he was Scum here. After all, he knows well I'm not quite the town leader type of player, meaning I cannot force-lynch a player on my own (something the likes of Wisdom, RC, Mastina and Titus seem to know well how to do).

N.B. Sorry for being too talkative. I would have put in less words if I felt they could transmit my exact thoughts still.

[Almost50]

OH! SO Scum already know someone's a VT. They have 8 more to sort out. << Keep that in mind for later reference

[Almost50]

*Sigh*

I could go against my meta-read on Gamma now, as jz did flip Scum. I pointed out his hop off the Gamma train as soon as he had a chance to do it, and Gamma was still the leading wagon (counter wagon to jz's own) at the time. He could have voted either Comm or Monkey, but he opted to start a new wagon on Junko. Hmmmm... I will sleep on this for a while.

[Almost50]

Actually, I don't think it makes much sense to do an obvious bus at that point. Junko remains in he null-Town zone. Both Monkey & Hongzi also upgraded to null-Town zone for being on jz at the time.

Updated read list:

Town: havingfitz-CommKnight-rb-TwoInAMillion-mozamis-
Null-Town: JunkoChan-humaneatingmonkey-Hongzi-
Mixed zone: MawhrinSkel-Gamma Emerald-
Need more or you're expendable: wavemode

But now I'm paranoid I'm TRing a Scumster

P-edit: You had MawhrinSkel already voting you and Comm had rb on him. Those were the only two viable (read: existing) wagon aside from jz's own and Gamma's (the one he was hopping off).

[Almost50]

It's also worth noting Comm was the 2nd vote on Junko just before jz flipped. It's quite unlikely that 2 scums will form a wagon on their own. It happens, but is fairly rare. Usually the Scum will wait for a Townie or two to join that wagon before they hop on it on 3rd/4th slot.

[Almost50]

Everybody needs to vote Gamma now.

Consider my vote to be there on spirit. I just feel this is too easy to be true, but I can't really argue against it, so I'll wait for others thoughts.

[Almost50]

Actually, I CAN argue for Town!Gamma still. I 'unvote in spirit'

[Almost50]

I believe I've actually been able to narrow the scum pool down to 6 players already. Pending on Junko's flip I'll push one at a time.

Time to share some reads, my friend. Please share the old ones and how the jz flip affected them.

[Almost50]

@wavemode: An updated readlist from you would also be nice. Thanks.

[Almost50]

my vote was an RVS one not sure how valid of a wagon that really was.

I need more from you too, Godel. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. We all did (and still do). It's how you learn to play, my friend.

[Almost50]

@ Almost, come on your town, vote for Gamma.

No. Gamma's Town. Think about it and I'm sure you will get to the same conclusion. I don't want to be explicit about it, but hey.. it's obvious enough!

[Almost50]

After having though about it and considered all possibilities I've come to the conclusion Gamma should be the strongest TR on my list, and especially so when Scum don't have daychat.

[Almost50]

OK, I've decided it's best to explain my thoughts about Gamma now so we won't get into complicated arguments later on:

First, Scum do not have daychat. They shot must've been on an obvious target. Who would that be? Junk? Certainly not, as if Junko flipped Town it would further implicate jz. Even in the off chance Junko is Scum the shot -obviously- wasn't on him.
Comm? Maybe, as if Comm flipped Town it may look like Junko shot him on face value, but it's ot the best target IMHO.
Someone random? Not a chance, as that would be the worst that could have ever happened from jz. He didn't know if he was killing or getting killed and with his flip his Scum team would gain absolutely no info.

What I'm about to say helps THEM as well as the Town, but I think the Town needs to be aware of the collective thoughts of it's members in order to coordinate our wagons better at this time.

The answer is Gamma IS/WAS the perfect shot target for jz. If Gamma flipped a Mason it would have made those who are voting him look bad, and those included Junko whom jz was trying to lynch. jz had earlier hopped off Gamma and so did fitz (which decreases my faith in my TR on the latter, but let's leave that aside for the moment). Gamma flipping a Mason (he could not have flipped as a VT as we all know VTs are kill-immune) would both make those who unvoted him look better and those who are still on his wagon look bad, and could have lead to a massive wagon on Junko.

If you can warp your head about my logic up there, it only means Gamma is confirmed a VT. He cannot be killed (as per the setup mechanics), and should not be lynched either. That's an unkillable IC IMHO.

If the above is true (and I'm like 95% confident in my logic) it makes Junko most likely Town as well. Both 2IAM & Moz were also still voting Gamma, so are likely Town.

Please notice that this is a logical/mechanical read that's totally independent on any meta, tone or gut reads.

So, as of now I would classify Gamma as unlynchable, and would say Junko, 2IAM and Moz are Town enough for me not to touch until we're close to LyLo.

Next on my list are Money & Hongzi. These two were voting jz still (as well as I), so likely Town too, BUT there's always a chance of one Scumster voting there for distancing when/if ever jz got lynched, and it's always better to get on your Scum p early as people tend to suspect those who join the wagon on Scum late.

So, while Monkey and Hongzi are still Town leans to me they are not as strong as the trio of Junko/2IAM/Moz, and certainly not as clear as Gamma is.

Comm I TR by tone, but I cannot argue for him on play. the only thing bI could bring up is him joining the Junko wagon 2nd only to a flipped Scumster, which is quite unlikely for Scum to do as I had explained in a previous post.

rb hasn't said much of late, so I have nothing to say for/against him.

Godel (MawhrinSkel) isn't even playing the game, so I fon't know, and having I was hard TRing but him hopping off the Gamma wagon then jz flipping (thus leading me to believe Gamma was the shot target) gives me an itch. He also has been absent of late.

Finally, wavemode has yet to play the game as well, and he only popped up to post an inexplicable realoist (I would also go on to call one of he worst I have ever seen, considering it contains 5 players at the bottom that I would not dare touch at this time).

I know Godel to be a low hanging fruit from the one game I've played with him before, so I'd say I prefer to lynch wave over him. fitz needs to come talk more before I decide on him, and I'm not going to line up more lynches before we get another flip that would either confirm my thoughts or falsify them and force me to reconsider a few slots.

VOTE: wavemode

[Almost50]

Does it look like I'm joking/trolling?

[Almost50]

You may want to test my theory yourself by shooting Gamma. Your continuous discrediting of my play is literally forcing me to reconsider my read on you. Shoot Gamma, or shoot me for all I care, and then we will know

[Almost50]

Instead of discrediting he idea for no apparent reason either point out why it's not likely or give a better shot option with reasoning

[Almost50]

Like why would Gamma shoot you or me? What's the benefit for him/his team if either of us flipped? Apply the same question to every other slot until you find the likely target(s) from your PoV

[Almost50]

I don't get how Gamma was a valid lynch when jz was voting him, stayed a valid lynch when a counter wagon formed on jz, and is still a valid lynch after jz flipped Scum! How does that work? What's the use of learning jz was Scum anyway? Why don't we just play this as a flipless game then?

[Almost50]

First, we're NOT lynching Gamma. Let's get that off the way.

Second, I'm not softing anything, and I find your "I know you're not a mason. So stop softing it." to be a soft itself. The question is whether I should be taking it seriously or as a bluff, and if the later is it from a Townie trying to lure a shot on themselves or Scum trying to test the latter and get a better read judging by my response.

Third, the question is fairly relevant because it DOES help you deduce who was likely shot and who was not. If there's no reason for jz to have shot you/me then it's likely neither of us was actually shot at. If there's a potential benefit from either of our flips to Scum then it would make sense jz shot at the one he thought would help his cause if flipped.

In other words, assuming you are Town, shooting you would have either resulted in jz flipping anyway if you're a VT or you flipping a Mason who was pushing jz so would give credibility to his wagon. The same applies to me and Hangzi. Now even if one of us was Scum it still means none of us were shot, because Scum won't be shooting Scum in a single ball in which they were informed who their partners are. That's a given. So, no chance in hell jz shot you, me or Hongzi. Now keep on building on it and you will probably realize why my logic is very much applicable.

And I was here when jz hopped off the Gamma wagon. What's your point?

Finally, what do you think I'm doing? I

am

using associatives to base my reads and conclusions on. You need to state your definition of the word "associative" though, as you seem to be implying it's only based on communication between players and not their voting patterns or what other actions they take.

Also VC analysis IS part of my argument. I had stated why some people look more townie now based on their votes, and others look less townie based on their votes. In fact, the VC analysis is an essential part of my argument, so -once again- what was the point there?

The above IS basic Scum hunting to me. That's how I play Mafia. Nothing I've said or done so far is beyond my regular playstyle as either alignment and it should all be NAI on face value. It's when you look for

the motive

behind everything I say that you might realize how Townie my slot is.

[Almost50]

But why would he only abandon it when a wagon started to build on HIM? Yes, on face value jumping off the Gamma wagon was sus, but then it could have been done earlier. What refuted my suspicion on Gamma being Scum was that jz didn't even wait long enough for a wagon to form on Junko before he decided to shoot 'someone'. It's as if he decided he was caught and won't be able to shake off the lynch anyway, which means his hop off Gama's wagon was because it got so much resistance it didn't go through, and he suspected Gamma is likely a Mason thus the Masons were resisting it. Now if Gamma flipped a Mason it would make ME & Comm likely Masons too (we both were hard TRing Gamma in a way that most other players didn't find too convincing), so he jumped off the wagon, formed another on Junko, and shot Gamma in hopes to get a better read on who Masons are as well as implicate his new lynch target.

Too bad for him Gamma didn't turn out to be a Mason, so all his planning went down the drain.

If my reasoning doesn't make perfect sense to you it probably won't to Scum either, so they may try to shoot Gamma still, which is fine by me because either I'm right and another Scum will die or I'm wrong and Gamma will flip a Mason and then we STILL would not have lynched him ourselves.

Now here's a WIFOM bit that I don't mind doing: Are YOU a Mason with Gamma? Is that why you're so against my theory?

Hint: This can't be true as Monkey is the one pushing hard for Gamma's lynch anyway, so make your own deductions.

Another WIFIM bit: Am >I< a Mason who knows Gamma to not be a Mason? Oh, well.. I'll leave hat one open for speculation. Scum can only find out by trying to shoot me, and -even if they do- it's too unfortunate for them they won't know it unless I really am a Mason (i.e. if another one dies they can't tell if they targeted me, Gamma, you, or shot at the moon!)

[Almost50]

@Monkey: Oh, and also than you for the compliment, but I really don't think of myself as better than anyone. We all have our good days and our bad days. If you want to look up for someone who really is GOOD I suggest you learn from "Cerberus 666" who knows best how to mechanically analyze the most complicated of setups. He also knows how to evade the lynch quite well. Try Wisdom for "how to get a lynch going though on your own". I could go on about some of my idols, but maybe we can save that for post-game.

[Almost50]

@Junko

[Almost50]

You are slightly mistaken there, Comm as you are quoting an inaccurate/irrelevant VC. The vC at the time jz flipped looked like this:

Gamma Emerald (1): TwoInAMillion-JunkoChan-mozamis-
jzhenson93 (3): humaneatingmonkey-Almost50-Hongzi-
CommKnight (1): rb-
humaneatingmonkey (1): MawhrinSkel-
JunkoChan (1): jzhenson93-CommKnight-

Not voting: wavemode-Gamma Emerald-havingfitz-

So, by your own logic JUNKO should be off the table today.

I also don't get how you came to the conclusion Gamma was likely getting lynched when his wagon had stalled already. You ad I have been resisting it, and people had started to look at jz for an alternative.

Personally, if I was in jz's shoes I

would have most certainly

deduced Gamma was a Mason with both you and I, and I would have shot him. Otherwise, it doesn't even make sense to hop off the wagon he thought was likely to be the lynch, nor does it seem likely he would shoot someone on that wagon if he wanted it to go through.

To reiterate, I agree that if a Mason was voting Gamma and flipped that it might have lead tom more pressure on Gamma, BUT:
1- What leads did jz have to pick his target? For all he knows everyone not Scum on that wagon could be a Mason, or they all could be VTs. You don't shoot 'randomly' if the result is you getting killed yourself if you're wrong.
2- Even if a Mason who was on Gamma flipped; I'd say that would have only marginally worsened Gamma's case, as it would boil down to WIFOM. (Scum shot them to save their p vs Scum shot them to implicate Gamma).
3- Also, what if I'm wrong and Gamma was a Mason? Masons would still know not to lynch him anyway.

In order to be a good scum hunter you ought to learn to think like Scum. What would YOU do if you were in their shoes. What's the most likely move and to what gain? Random shooting just isn't my way of playing Scum, so I wouldn't expect it to have been jz's.

Finally, there's a contradiction in your post, which is suggesting jz could have shot someone on Gamma's wagon to implicate Gamma, and then suggesting it could -theoretically- have been done to protect Gamma! Like, you can't have them BOTH as valid arguments. Either you think a Mason flip on the wagon would lead to Gamma eating rope or you think it will raise his chances of survival.

At least we do agree that Gamma is most likely Town, and that the Gamma wagon at both it's peak and at the end is untouchable today. I would also add those who were voting jz and resulted in him doing that desperate move he did, and we have you/rb/Skel/wave as a lynch pool.

Now I don't expect you to promote your own lynch, and I won't support your lynch either. rb needs to chime in sometime soon to give u his view on the new situation, and Godel you know is very much lynchable as either alignment (after all you were modding the last game of cannibals and saw his play. It's even in your signature: Open 700)

I'd say we give Godel some time to try and play the game properly, regardless of his alignment. Even if he rolled Scum here he won't be much of a threat if he lives another day.

So. I recommend you vote wavemode with me, unless you think there's a good chance scum were busing jz, in which case pick one of Moneky/Hongzi to vote (which I wouldn't recommend, but still would appreciate your view on who is more likely to have been busing IF there was one).

[Almost50]

Why would I shoot Gamma when I could have had him lynched?

Because .. the lynch ... wasn't going through. The Gamma wagon had stalled and there were at least 4 players NOT in favour of it (aside from Gamma himself). Both you and I were on jz, and Hongzi who was originally voting Gamma also switched to jz, while Comm had stated an explicit TR on Gamma. It would have needed at least 3 Scums to be on Gamma for him to get lynched, and his flip would have put them on the spotlight so they weren't going to vote him either.

[Almost50]

Here's another view: What was Gamma doing that Scum felt the urge to try and save him even at the cost of their own lives? If I was Scum with Gamma in this game I would have bused the shit out of him town!cred anyway. Imagine the other 3 Scums on Gamma's wagon leading to his lynch and him flipping Scum. It would have lead to at least 3 mislynches after his flip.

Also -thanks to Comm- I now have a stronger TR on Hongzi than I had before. I didn't realize he was on Gamma before he switched to jz, so I was only giving him the Town!cred based on the jz wagon. The SWITCH though earns him bonus Town pts because you don't quit a wagon on a townie to build one that is still growing on your p and had every chance of being defused before it got to explicit busing point.

So, Gamma/Junko/HongziTIAM/moz/Comm are now in my Town!block. If anyone else wishes to join it they had better do something really townie or pray for Scum to fuck up in a way that obv!towns them. Otherwise we can simply lynch everyone else and win, and that WOULD include any Mason c;aims outside if this block.

p-edit: You "thought" it was Town driven, but do you still "believe" it was when the 2nd person to vote Gamma had already flipped Scum???

[Almost50]

But let's cut through it all and get to the point: What do you have to say against the lynch of wavemode?

[Almost50]

His reads were bad and I'm looking at him as next lynch whether or not Gamma flips scum.

If it's independent on the Gama flip then it's probably a better vote for you anyhow, at least for now.

[Almost50]

Mate, we are not lynching Gamma. I'm fighting it tooth and nail. Just take a look at your signature and get over it.

"Looks like i was wrong. He was the monkey that could. He got three obv towns mislynched. What a guy!" - Transcend

[Almost50]

Respectfully, mate, that was my scum game. And who's to say I can't fight tooth and nail to lynch Gamma, too? I'll get that lynch.

You may try. Even if you succeed -which I very much doubt you will- you will get be lynched next when he does flip Town.

[Almost50]

However, old fshioned scum huntign strongly suggests the guy is scum, and is an excellent day 1 lynch.

The tl;dr: Scum will always shoot for a purpose, and more so if the punishment for being wrong is getting killed themselves. So, jz didn't shoot an arbitrary player. He shot someone whose flip would have either saved jz or someone he thought was a Mason. Now do place yourself in Scum!Jz's shoes and take your aim. Who would you have shot to save yourself? Who would have been your best guess for a Mason? You don't even need to answer in the thread, Just do the math yourself.

[Almost50]

Old fashioned scum hunting lead me to believe Monkey was voting his p for distancing and it backfired.

Old fashioned scum hunting would lead me to believe Comm is probably scum for continuing to use bad logic.

Old scum hunting leads me to believe wavemode's read list was manufactured and that wave is scum.

Monkey admits wave to be in his lynching scope, but wants to do Gamma first, He's lining up lynches. I pressed him to lynch wave with me before Gamma but he refused, so I'm inclined to think he will come up with a reason not to vote wave as soon as Gamma flips Scum.

Comm I still somehow refuse to believe has rolled Scum this game. It's mere gut, but I'm starting to run out of other options.

Finally, I don't understand why Gamma can't live another day? Why him in particular? Why was he jz's vote target? Why did jz quit that wagon if he intended to shoot just about anyone else?

Now check this out:

A50 is definitely scum. But we should lynch Gamma first to be sure.

THIS after the jz flip. Why would Scum!Me try to save Gamma by pushing specifically for another Scumster? Even Stevie Wonder would see that I'm the towniest player in thus game thus far.

Coupled with discrediting me, and later stating he would lynch wave REGARDLESS of the Gamma flip, this is SCUM on pure Scum agenda.

Maybe I'm wrong about wave, but he read list was terrible and suggests he never read a damn thing and pulled one off from thin air. He explained nothing about it when Gamma asked either. He just went down his rabbit hole.

I say we lynch one of the two. Either one I'm fine with to be honest. I was just trying to give Monkey a chance to show me at least he can be bad Town, but it doesn't look like he is.

[Almost50]

And sorry for posting yet another wall. I started off with one line, then it became 2 then 3, then I let go of myself. You could still read it line by line though, I think.

[Almost50]

My prediction was incorrect

And yet you don't seem to have reevaluated anything, as proven by you currently casting a vote on TIAM.

If you want us to believe you realized your reads were bad you need to provide a new read list and it had better have some reasoning for how you read people the way you do.

You see, none of us here has a crystal ball. We only see what you post, and we develop our reads accordingly, so help me out here if you're Town.

[Almost50]

if I'm scum for coloring jz white instead of red

You're not scum bc of that alone. You're scum bc your whole readlist looked utterly fake and you didn't even care to give reason.

How is Comm townier than fitz? Why is Monkey a town lean and TIAM your top scum read (was 2nd, but I see you're voting him over me so assuming you upgraded your read on me)? Why was I your top SR? What makes Gamma townier than Moz? Why is/was Junko a scum lean? Explain the read list and let us know what changed since you posted it and where you stand now and we might be able to see thing from a different perspective.

[Almost50]

Why is this not relevant information?

I agree, it IS very relevant infomation. Scum love to bus for a bit, for distancing, and then get off the wagon. "soft bussing".
Come on guys, we're letting scum slip away here.

^This from the guy who put Gamma as a strong TR on his read list, second only to CommKnight.

You either didn't read the post you're responding to or you're throwing shade on someone you previously hard TR'd. Which is it? And if the2nd, what changed your mind?

[Almost50]

You either didn't read the post you're responding to or you're throwing shade on someone you previously hard TR'd. Which is it? And if the2nd, what changed your mind?

what are you talking about? I have been hard scum reading Gamma pretty much all game.

Oh! I somehow thought that was a wave,ode post as I was talking to him and pushing him to provide reads with reasoning!

[Almost50]

@fitz: When I asked about the Scum shots I was told they can shoot any number of times a any given time.

[Almost50]

By PM.. when I was confused if they were only 1-shot or have multi-shots each after Comm's 1st post

[Almost50]

@fitz: In theory, the game could end in just one gameday if Scum manage to shoot all Masons then mislynch one VT.

@moz: Ok, so yoy don't see Gamma as townie as I do. That's OK. But why can't we give him one more day and lynch someone else instead?

I'll also argue for Gamma again! If he felt he was the day lynch anyway before jz unvoted him, wouldn't he have tried to shoot someone before he went down?? How does it make sense that jz shoots when he only had 3 votes on him and Gamma doesn't when he had 5 (got to 6 even, but only for a few minutes so maybe he wasn't online to see it).

[Almost50]

Come on! Too risky? He was getting LYNCHED, so what's risky about shooting anyway?

[Almost50]

@wave: I'm still waiting for an updated readlist, y'know.

[Almost50]

So, on Earth you vote and THEN develop your reads? because you ARE voting TIAM already! That's interesting!

[Almost50]

@Godel: If you're going to refer to the last game, then you should trust me. I pegged 2 out of 3 scums on D1, ended the day voting Scum and checked the other at night. In fact, it would be a hell lot easier for me to play if stubborn townies didn't have to oppose everything I said.

If you decide to trust my reads; I can assure you Gamma is Town here. Vote wave with me and if he doesn't flip Scum though I will vote Gamma. (That is to say I'm so confident in wave being Scum as I am in Gamma being Town).

If wave does flip Scum his most likely teammates are Monkey & Comm, but you (or someone else) will say it's pre-flip associatives, so we need to flip the one I'm most confident in before we go after the other two.

If wave flips Town I'll sheep whoever you tell me to. Moz, Monkey, or even you if you want me to. Does his sound fair enough?

[Almost50]

Like, guys. All I need is for wave to flip red to PROVE to you that Monkey & Comm are the other 2 Scums. Can you please help me?

[Almost50]

Conveniently leaving out the part where between that readslist and the point when I'd have time to write a (frankly, pointless imo) wallpost about it to satisfy Gamma, a scum flipped and the reads became invalid anyway

It's never pointless to explain your thought process at he time even after the conclusions were proven wrong. We needed to evaluate your thought process in order to get a better read on you.

It IS pointless to me now as I have a better view on the game anyway; but feel free to try and prove me wrong if so you wish.

[Almost50]

Also, I'm just pointing out that yet another game has ended where I pegged Crows (Alisae+Shiro) as Scum early on and even called their interactions wih Mavis unnatural and deduced they nwere scum partners together on D1. The Town kept defending them until they made it to MyLo (we were lucky to win there after that, and only because our investigatives got the other 2 Scums guiltied).

The only one who manged to allude me was my own hydra partner; Chara/Kiyo (which is natural because ethey know how I scum hunt better than anyone else), and instead I SR'd Shuichi (who urned out to be Cephrir, whom I SR by playstyle anyway, but I didn't know that at the time.


Here it is.

[Almost50]

Actually, he's just scum claiming. If he claims to be that good and he produced that read list then...

[Almost50]

Hey, I didn't start it. Almost50 wanted to share a story so I figured it was storytime

And this is caught scum who doesn't know what to say anymore. I was using my most recent games reference to get people to sheep me on you after I had already been proven correct on jz, while you are turning it into "storytime".

[Almost50]

LOOOOOL @obv!town.

And you're not even answering anything of value. GIVE US A DAMN READ LIST WITH SOME REASONING instead of tantalizing all the time.

[Almost50]

Like, a townie in wave's position would do everything they can to help the town. A read list is the best ANY Townie would have provided at this time.

[Almost50]

You also talk as though everyone in the game but me has put out a readslist post-jzhen's flip with full reasoning

Makes your push look kinda bad, actually. Why the selective attention?

Some of them did, yet some didn't. Most of those who didn't though already had jz at the bottom, so they don't really need to post an update.

BUT (and here's the magical trick) neither those who posted an updated readlist nor those who didn't are being put @L-2 currently. Go back and reread what I said. The towniest thing for YOU to do was to post an updated readlist at this time.

[Almost50]

So., you do NOT have a clear view on everyone's alignment, but you are both voting someone AND obv!Town.

Wait a minute! What? "It's almost as though I've done essentially nothing scummy this game" you say? Have you done anything at all but post an inexplicable (yet laughable) read list and dodge questions? You literally did not a single townie thing all game. None. Nada. Zilch.

[Almost50]

On YOUR ISO? How does one quote "doing nothing"? I said you provided an inexplicable read list, and everybody can find it on their own, Your ISO isn't even that big to get lost in it, but I also said you dodged questions, and you are still doing it. You are talkintg non-stop with me here about how I should prove you are not posing anything game related and how you are not scumhunting, ad I'm enjoying talking back to you on this to make it clear to everyone that you are indeed not doing anything game related and are just posting to appear like you have something to say while actually still saying nothing.

I'll tell you what: Show me ONE attempt to scum hunt by you and I'll unvote you. Show me one post that wasn't you defending yourself by mainly discrediting the other party or going round and round in circles. Is it the egg or the chicken first?

[Almost50]

TwoInAMillion died he was a

Mafia Goon

[/b]

I didn't see that one coming. This begs for a whole read list reevaluation.

On face value this makes Comm look MUCH better. His read list here looks much better than mine.

So we have 13 players currently with 4 scum, 4 masons, 5 VTs.

Onto my reads thus far:

Not Lynching/TownLeans: <Hongzi, humaneatingmonkey, havingfitz, mozamis>
Neutral: <Almost50, rb, Gamma Emerald, wavemode>
Null-Scum: <MawhrinSkel, JunkoChan,

jzhenson93

>
Scum: <[b

]TwoInAMiilion

[/b],

wave also looks a tad better now since TIAM was willing to lynch him.

If Comm & wave are Town I don't mind sheeping them on MawhrinSkel, although I would very much appreciate it if Comm explained what he saw in Godel's play here that wasn't in Open 700.

[Almost50]

And this time I REALLY have no clue who might've been the shot target.

rb also being against the wave lynch makes him a Townie. Him and Moz.

Scum in: MawhrinSkel/havingfitz/humaneatingmonkey/Hongzi , but I'm currently leaning the former 2 as they were the only ones not voting when TIAM flipped (no idea what made him shoot now either).

[Almost50]

LOL @JC
Also;
LOL @JC

(Second one for the comment about game ending on D1. First one though because the VC is automatically reset with each flip).

[Almost50]

we lynch gamma and Mawhr, we win.

OK, then.. but any particular reason we should lynch Gamma over Skel? If not, then I owe wavemode an apology and would like to follow him on Mawhr first out of courtesy. Also if both wave and Comm are Town and they thing Gamma is Town then I have no real reason to doubt my read there, but if we have a 3rd Mafia flip we have room to test Gamma for real. (This is all based on you already SRing MawhrinSkel)

VOTE: MawhrinSkel

[Almost50]

Hey that's a poem

something something brown

I said I'm sorry. Please don't make me strut in a gown.

[Almost50]

Are we doing Skel or Junko first? I think Junko would be a good priority.

Skel is already lynched by my count.

MawhrinSkel (6): wavemode-CommKnight-JunkoChan-Hongzi-Almost50-rb-

And the best thing is he didn't get to shoot anyone

[Almost50]

If you're fairly confident in them flipping Scum you don't want them to be shooting down a Mason before they're lynched. The shooting works better at the start of the game IMHO.

[Almost50]

If this flips red, final scum is Moz I believe.

Actually; if this flips red I', lynching someone who has not been flipped yet. *Firm Nod*

[Almost50]

I'm curious as to your reads list currently A50, who do you think is most likely town and who is left to sort?

Why can't we just wait for the flip to be confirmed? If you're asking me my read on YOU though you're probably Town and will be a stringer TR when Skel flips red.

You still haven't explained what you saw in his play that was different from hid VT play in open 700.

[Almost50]

@wave: Your alignment, mine, Gamma's and everyone else's aside.. you saying you're "obv!Town" does need explanation. We don't see anything you did that should've made you obv!Town before the 2 Scum flips. I mean, you're obv!Town NOW, but back then it was not the case.

Like, I would like to say I', obv!Town myself, except I'd be a liar. My push on you was bad and it takes away all the credit from my earlier push on jz, so if I was watching the game from outside I'd start having second thoughts about my slot's alignment. It would still not be an outright SR, but I understand why some people may FoS me at this point.

[Almost50]

Why are we still talking like this? Haven't we narrowed our PoE to a few select?

We're doing some post-game discussion while we wait for Skel's flip I guess.

[Almost50]

This is a SFW only site please Gamma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SFW

[Almost50]

VOTE: fitz

He voted TIAM in RVS, then voted Gamma. stayed there until a wagon started to form on jz, then unvoted and never voted anyone again since.

The reason I'm having second thoughts about him is that if he is the last Mafia it would mean the Gamma wagon was started by 3 consecutive Scum votes, which looks pretty weird.

HOWEVER, PoE makes him the most likely remaining Scum.

[Almost50]

And the best thing is he didn't get to shoot anyone

Your count is right. Unless shots are timestamped and scum sent one in. If scum sent a shot in since the mod last logged in it should negate votes I would think. Who knows when the mod will check in.

Also this pinged me. It sounds as if he was signaling Godel to submit a kill anyway and see what happens.

[Almost50]

LOL. Mate, TWO out of three flipped Scums died of their own shots. It wasn't like we lynched all three in a row.

[Almost50]

How about a little side competition? Like, we could all PM the mod with who we thing the Scum shot and we can find out post-game who was more accurate. I'll go send my own predictions now. Anyone want to play with me?

[Almost50]

Nice

[Almost50]

As if this should make a difference.

VOTE: fitz

P-edit: Yes, please. Forward mine.

[Almost50]

Well then I was wrong on the the jz shot, but I'm right on TIAM's

GGA

P.S. The next time I play with any of TwoInAMillion/JunkoChan/jzhenson93/humaneatingmonkey/Hongzi/MawhrinSkel (either head)/wavemode I fully expect to be FoS'd to oblivion and probably even mislynched just bc I would be playing totally different than I did here and they don't know any better.

@wave: You were SRing the whole Mason team, so it was really natural for me that you were Scum who put his p's higher on the readlist.

[Almost50]

I WAS RIGHT ABOUT JZHENSON SHOOTING ME HAHAHAHA SUCK IT A50

LOL. OK, you won that one, but I bet you didn't submit rb as the 2nd shot.

[Almost50]

I also would like to thank my fellow Masons for letting me do my stunt at the start of the game. I bet you guys were like "what the freak is he doing?" and then wish that there was a Masons PT to reprimand me for my play.

I dunno about Godel saying he would've shot me. I bet almost everyone else thought I was a VT, apart from my fellow Masons of course.

[Almost50]

Hahhaha, the only Masons I was right about was A50 and Hong.

How could you have thought I was a Mason and still thought I got shot at?

[Almost50]

Lesson to take from this: A50 and I make a very deadly town duo.

Actually, I will PM you shortly about this.

[Almost50]

I was first to pre-in for Comm's game, if anyone enjoyed my eccentric play.

[Almost50]

@Moz: Going against the Gamma lynch was actually the best thing I did in this game (outright claiming Mason though was the most enjoyable)

[Almost50]

I also would like to thank my fellow Masons for letting me do my stunt at the start of the game

what stunt? you voting Comm?

No. My outright Mason claim.