Mini Normal 1976 - The Firsts - Night 2[End Jan 8]

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: acryon

Truly random.

[TwoInAMillion]

2inamil, are you scum?

Not last time I checked. What about you?

[TwoInAMillion]

Since monkey and I are both town I might as well wagon with him.

VOTE: PsychoSavant

[TwoInAMillion]

Oh no

You don't want me to wagon with you?

[TwoInAMillion]

Happy holidays people!

2inamil, are you scum?

Yeahhhh I flagged that too, but a quick scan through some of his games shows he does this as scum and as town (but more often as scum v.s. only one instance as town) so sketch points there.

I've only played once as scum ftr so points off for misinformation here.

[TwoInAMillion]

Now that I think about it that's a blantant lie so more votes pls.

[TwoInAMillion]

Oh no

You don't want me to wagon with you?

But your fervor was cringy because I still don't know if you're town. If Psyko is scum, you're town or super-bussing scum. Since there's daytalk, I think bussing is going to be much much of an option here. So this could be a set up to clear both of you off associative reads later since first page wagons are most likely to be thrown off.

Especially since you claim that you only played scum once. I don't recall that as true.

You want me to list my finished games?

[TwoInAMillion]

Happy holidays people!

2inamil, are you scum?

Yeahhhh I flagged that too, but a quick scan through some of his games shows he does this as scum and as town (but more often as scum v.s. only one instance as town) so sketch points there.

I've only played once as scum ftr so points off for misinformation here.

This is a straight up lie but I can't talk about it because of site rules.....

You already did, so you either lied or you broke site rules.

[TwoInAMillion]

Sorry my bad I never got a game over email for the open.

[TwoInAMillion]

"More often" still implies more than twice.

[TwoInAMillion]

The open game has been over less than 24 hours.*shrug*

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: TwoInAMillion

Why?

[TwoInAMillion]

I generally have shorter posts.

If anything this makes monkey look bad for acting like the open game has been over for awhile.

UNVOTE:

[TwoInAMillion]

I generally have shorter posts.

If anything this makes monkey look bad for acting like the open game has been over for awhile.

UNVOTE:

???

I never said it's been over for a while. But it's been yesterday. It isn't like it was fresh off the boat. You would have seen it in your sub folder.

Also, called this unvote. Knew it was too early to call it not SvS.

Yesterday is pretty fresh off the boat. I don't generally look at my sub folder. It seems like you have a vested interest in incriminating me. You knew the game was over. I didn't.

[TwoInAMillion]

I agree with Monkeys post here. I DO think that is too much effort for RVS.
VOTE: 2inamillion

Then you should be voting psycho not me. That's who monkey was criticizing.

[TwoInAMillion]

I'm inclined to vote for 2inamil over Psyko. I think psyko got lucky and caught scum, then went back and tried to find evidence to lynch him, which explains the overeagerness. That's my initial reaction anyway. He sounds like struggling town more than overreaching scum.

That makes no sense. If he "got lucky and caught scum," how would he know?

[TwoInAMillion]

That's l2 I think. For pretty much no good reason. I am a vt.

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: Hawk

A L2 vote deserves an explanation.

[TwoInAMillion]

I stopped pushing for psycho once I realized I had made a mistake. Here you attack me for pushing psycho, and then you attack me for unvoting psycho. Make up your mind.

I even explained that if anyone was scummy it was monkey because he knew the Open was over and withheld information to try and make me look bad.

Town are more self critical of their thought process because they don't want to mislynch. Here it looks like you're looking for a reason to mislynch me and didn't provide details on your thought process until pressed, and then your thought process doesn't look town.

[TwoInAMillion]

If you put someone at L2 without good reasoning you are going to be criticized. I have know idea what "shading" is but I retracted my stance in a timely matter. What is it that you think I should have done? And what do you think about the fact that monkey had information on the argument that I didn't have and withheld it?

[TwoInAMillion]

Now that I think about it that's a blantant lie so more votes pls.

"More often" still implies more than twice.

The second post after the first before unvoting is what I meant by shade. Like you're saying he still looked scummy for what he said even tho he didn't lie and your initial was yeah that was a lie scum!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your tone in 35 but it sounds like something you'd say if you still thought what someone did was scummy. Like "You lied" "Oh, you explained, well to me it sounded like you said more than that so still a lie"

You understand that the reason I thought he was lying was that one of my scum games had just finished less than 24 hours after he posted about it and we are not supposed to discuss ongoing games. I had not been made aware that it was over and it was an extremely short game so I wasn't checking up on it as often and was expecting it to last longer. You are not understanding the situation it seems.

[TwoInAMillion]

I agree sky is less than redeeming. As is monkey and jodax.

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: Mulch

Nothing against mulch, everything against monkey.

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: Mulch

Nothing against mulch, everything against monkey.

What did you dislike about monkey, I actually thought his replace out was towny as hell (dirty as it was), and otherwise he was playing I think pretty similar to his town meta?

It seemed like he knew he was caught and didn't want a loss on his record.

And it's not like you would say he looked scummy.

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: Mulch

Nothing against mulch, everything against monkey.

What did you dislike about monkey, I actually thought his replace out was towny as hell (dirty as it was), and otherwise he was playing I think pretty similar to his town meta?

It seemed like he knew he was caught and didn't want a loss on his record.

And it's not like you would say he looked scummy.

If my guy was scummy I would call him scummy regardless of my allignment. I can quote you games where I replaced in as scum and called my predecessor scummy if you like. In fact if HEM was scum I prob WOULD call him scummy rn

Also, he was force replaced. So he didn't choose to be replaced- therefore he didn't "choose" to do anything

So if I'm getting this straight- you don't scumread HEM on his play, only that he replaced out?

No, also that he didn't say the Open was over when we were discussing it and we thought it was still ongoing.

[TwoInAMillion]

No, also that he didn't say the Open was over when we were discussing it and we thought it was still ongoing.

Why is that scummy

Because it shows alterior motive.

[TwoInAMillion]

No, also that he didn't say the Open was over when we were discussing it and we thought it was still ongoing.

Why is that scummy

Because it shows alterior motive.

I don't even know what this means or why it's scummy, so I would appreciate an explanation

Town shouldn't hide information, unless you are a power role.

[TwoInAMillion]

Town shouldn't hide information, unless you are a power role.

Do you think he purposefully did it? I honestly have no idea haven't read it carefully

Yes, he explicitly knew the game was over and didn't say anything while we argued about if Psycho was breaking game rules or not and how many scum games I had played.

[TwoInAMillion]

You know you can quote multiple posts and not use three posts for three questions right?

[TwoInAMillion]

You're like the kid who quits the basketball team because he doesn't get along with one player.

[TwoInAMillion]

If it's between profi and jodax I'm going with profi.

VOTE: profi

[TwoInAMillion]

profi's assumption of Mulch as town, and Mulch's quick vote of Jodax after profi was voted makes me think they could be a scumteam.

[TwoInAMillion]

i said you voted jadex affter Bujaber voted proxi, pay attention.

[TwoInAMillion]

profi's assumption of Mulch as town, and Mulch's quick vote of Jodax after profi was voted makes me think they could be a scumteam.

I never voted profi. Are you lying?

You think Mulch and Profi are scum team because mulch is attacking Jodax after Profi gets voted by Bujaber?

Possibly.

[TwoInAMillion]

Also i hope that hawk is town because he's made a few pretty astute observations recently

Which observations are astute? And how do you know if they are astute without knowing the alignment of his reads?

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't buy Mulch's claim. No reason to claim this early in the game and claiming because of an argument with one player is really poor play. Also claiming cop could force a counterclaim and even night means he doesn't have to give results right away. Too convienient of a claim for me so I call BS.

[TwoInAMillion]

*rolls eyes*

Obviously you think claiming cop gives you a free pass.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't buy Mulch's claim. No reason to claim this early in the game and claiming because of an argument with one player is really poor play. Also claiming cop could force a counterclaim and even night means he doesn't have to give results right away. Too convienient of a claim for me so I call BS.

This is the single handedly worst post of the game.

You know why?

He’s SEEN me as town claim early and is trying to push me on it.

2inamilloon is scum

Crap play is crap play. I don't care what your meta is. Hiding behind your meta makes you even scummier.

[TwoInAMillion]

You're not even making sense.

Are you high?

[TwoInAMillion]

I tend not to focus on meta as much as other players. I focus on what players are doing this game. This game I don't buy your claim as it is too convenient.

[TwoInAMillion]

I tend not to focus on meta as much as other players. I focus on what players are doing this game. This game I don't buy your claim as it is too convenient.

Do you scumread me claiming early?

Pretty much.

1)if yes, why didn’t you scumread me other games for claiming early
2) if no, why did you say you did?

Different games are different circumstances.

[TwoInAMillion]

I’m done. I’ll see y’all day 2 if I’m alive.

Whatever happened to shooting him?

[TwoInAMillion]

Funny how being caught scum makes people want to replace out.

[TwoInAMillion]

Don't act scummy.

[TwoInAMillion]

profi's assumption of Mulch as town, and Mulch's quick vote of Jodax after profi was voted makes me think they could be a scumteam.

Called it already.

[TwoInAMillion]

With only 11 players I highly doubt there are 4 scum. 3 is pushing it.

[TwoInAMillion]

Someone help me out because I’m new on this site. Will the vig and mafia kills be announced as “player X was shot” ie we won’t actually know which kill was the scum or vig

didn't he claim day vig? I could be mistaken. A day vig would obviously be posted seperately while a night vig you wouldn't be made aware of which was which, although some mods may make hints with the day flip flavor.

[TwoInAMillion]

I never said I want to lynch mulch. I said I don't believe his claim. And asking for counterclaims is just as bad as rolefishing. Where in the mafia handbook does it say any power role claim gets a free ride?

[TwoInAMillion]

I want him to follow his gut rather than be told what to do and not be accountable.

[TwoInAMillion]

The "claimed" cop. You are not a confirmed cop. And you are not confirmed town.

Maybe if you started acting townier he wouldn't want to shoot you.

[TwoInAMillion]

A) I'm not sure why people keep on insisting there is one scum between me and Psycho. I know I am town and Psycho could conceivably be town as well. There are much scummier acting players.

B) How many times do I have to say there's a difference between me not believing Mulch's claim and me wanting him lynched?

[TwoInAMillion]

B) How many times do I have to say there's a difference between me not believing Mulch's claim and me wanting him lynched?

Ok and if you don't believe his claim you should 100% be wanting to lynch him.

If you operate in a world where someone fakeclaiming isn't enough to warrant a lynch, then I am very curious what you think makes someone scum.

Not true, because while I don't believe his claim I entertain the possibility that I am wrong. If you ask if it's scummier to think you are always right or to question yourself, I would say the person that thinks they are always right is scummier.

[TwoInAMillion]

B) How many times do I have to say there's a difference between me not believing Mulch's claim and me wanting him lynched?

Ok and if you don't believe his claim you should 100% be wanting to lynch him.

If you operate in a world where someone fakeclaiming isn't enough to warrant a lynch, then I am very curious what you think makes someone scum.

This is exactly what I mean when I said Bujaber is following the manual, people are having their cake and eating it by saying “I won’t be blamed for lynching a cop but I’ll air my doubts now so I can say I told you so later...”

Yea I know nobody wants to lynch the cop but it will take 6 of us to do it, If it’s a mistake, that would be a shame but it doesn’t suddenly mean we are all scum or some other travesty

The other really weird thing I don’t get is that no one will put their name to a lynch of a potential fake PR claim because they don’t want to lynch a Pr but when DH says that he will kill a PR claim tonight very few people care enough to try and stop him. Again I assume people want their cake and to eat it because they will let DH be brave and take the risk of shooting a PR so they have an easy person to blame in the aftermath

No risk no reward people!

So you're saying lynching a claimed cop is an acceptable risk? Why not save the risks for later in the game? We could still catch scum and not lynch a cop.

[TwoInAMillion]

You may have better odds with lynching Mulch, but the risk of being wrong is considerably higher.

[TwoInAMillion]

You may have better odds with lynching Mulch, but the risk of being wrong is considerably higher.

Ok but DH has already stated they will explicitly shoot him tonight, so he's dying either way.

He could change his mind. We should decide who we want to lynch seperately from what DH is going to do.

[TwoInAMillion]

Statistics don't work that way profil. This is a social deduction game and I'm sure it is less than half in fact it's probably pretty close to x/y percentage where x is the average # of scum players in any given game and y is the average total number of players in any given game.

Pedit: No odds don't work that way...

Also that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let's ignore the proclaimed action of a person who can directly eliminate a player and choose our lynch without considering this information. Changing DHs mind is reasonable if you believe both DH and Mulches claims.

I don't believe Mulch's claim. Allowing DH to make up his own mind allows us to try and determine his alignment based on the results of his actions. He could be a SK and not a vig. Telling DH who to shoot removes the accountability element and doesn't help town.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't believe Mulch's claim. Allowing DH to make up his own mind allows us to try and determine his alignment based on the results of his actions. He could be a SK and not a vig. Telling DH who to shoot removes the accountability element and doesn't help town.

If DH kills Mulch (like he said he would), what does that tell us about his alignment? If Mulch turns out to be town or scum, it doesn't mean DH is town or scum; it just means he was wrong or right.

Being wrong is not AI.

Um...on average scum will be "wrong" at a higher rate than town, because scum want town to die.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't believe Mulch's claim. Allowing DH to make up his own mind allows us to try and determine his alignment based on the results of his actions. He could be a SK and not a vig. Telling DH who to shoot removes the accountability element and doesn't help town.

If DH kills Mulch (like he said he would), what does that tell us about his alignment? If Mulch turns out to be town or scum, it doesn't mean DH is town or scum; it just means he was wrong or right.

Being wrong is not AI.

Um...on average scum will be "wrong" at a higher rate than town, because scum want town to die.

Statistically sure, but considering we likely have more people currently wanting Mulch dead than there are scum, it takes quite a bit into the game before that's particularly relevant.

So, taking Mulch out of the equation, if DH is wrong too many times, there comes a point where we need to lynch him because a) he's a sk or b) he's a detriment to the town.

[TwoInAMillion]

Statistics don't work that way profil. This is a social deduction game and I'm sure it is less than half in fact it's probably pretty close to x/y percentage where x is the average # of scum players in any given game and y is the average total number of players in any given game.

Pedit: No odds don't work that way...

Also that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let's ignore the proclaimed action of a person who can directly eliminate a player and choose our lynch without considering this information. Changing DHs mind is reasonable if you believe both DH and Mulches claims.

I don't believe Mulch's claim. Allowing DH to make up his own mind allows us to try and determine his alignment based on the results of his actions. He could be a SK and not a vig. Telling DH who to shoot removes the accountability element and doesn't help town.

Lynch this after I’m dead

“Let’s shoot the cop to determine if derpy is serial killer”

That's not at all what I said.

[TwoInAMillion]

Statistics don't work that way profil. This is a social deduction game and I'm sure it is less than half in fact it's probably pretty close to x/y percentage where x is the average # of scum players in any given game and y is the average total number of players in any given game.

Pedit: No odds don't work that way...

Also that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let's ignore the proclaimed action of a person who can directly eliminate a player and choose our lynch without considering this information. Changing DHs mind is reasonable if you believe both DH and Mulches claims.

I don't believe Mulch's claim. Allowing DH to make up his own mind allows us to try and determine his alignment based on the results of his actions. He could be a SK and not a vig. Telling DH who to shoot removes the accountability element and doesn't help town.

Lynch this after I’m dead

“Let’s shoot the cop to determine if derpy is serial killer”

That's not at all what I said.

“Let’s let derpy decide on his own”

—— derpy says he’s shooting the cop

“To determine if he’s the serial killer”

The only reason you don't want DH to decide on his own is because you don't want to be the first scum death.

[TwoInAMillion]

Statistics don't work that way profil. This is a social deduction game and I'm sure it is less than half in fact it's probably pretty close to x/y percentage where x is the average # of scum players in any given game and y is the average total number of players in any given game.

Pedit: No odds don't work that way...

Also that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let's ignore the proclaimed action of a person who can directly eliminate a player and choose our lynch without considering this information. Changing DHs mind is reasonable if you believe both DH and Mulches claims.

I don't believe Mulch's claim. Allowing DH to make up his own mind allows us to try and determine his alignment based on the results of his actions. He could be a SK and not a vig. Telling DH who to shoot removes the accountability element and doesn't help town.

Lynch this after I’m dead

“Let’s shoot the cop to determine if derpy is serial killer”

That's not at all what I said.

“Let’s let derpy decide on his own”

—— derpy says he’s shooting the cop

“To determine if he’s the serial killer”

The only reason you don't want DH to decide on his own is because you don't want to be the first scum death.

How can I be a scum death if I am not scum

You're not helping your cause much.

[TwoInAMillion]

Honestly this game reminds me of Mini 1933 where Mulch was scum and extremely antagonistic towards town players.

[TwoInAMillion]

Honestly this game reminds me of Mini 1933 where Mulch was scum and extremely antagonistic towards town players.

Convenient you don’t mention the town games

But I’m done arguing

Lynch this after I flip in one wau or another

That's because in town games you aren't as antagonistic.

[TwoInAMillion]

Honestly this game reminds me of Mini 1933 where Mulch was scum and extremely antagonistic towards town players.

Convenient you don’t mention the town games

But I’m done arguing

Lynch this after I flip in one wau or another

That's because in town games you aren't as antagonistic.

.. lie?

What do you mean by antagonistic

I mean insulting other players and trying to bait them.

[TwoInAMillion]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

You mean your fake check where you make up a guilty on someone, they end up being mislyched, and we are in a further hole?

[TwoInAMillion]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

You mean your fake check where you make up a guilty on someone, they end up being mislyched, and we are in a further hole?

Slander motion to strike from the record.

This is scummy. No reason to even post this as town.

I'm pointing out that Mulch's statements are not factually proven correct. How is that scummy?

[TwoInAMillion]

Wow appeal to experience and WIFOM in the same post.

[TwoInAMillion]

Appeal to Authority, my bad.

Relying overmuch on the arguments of "older, wiser" players (especially when the argument is theoretical rather than based on the facts of the current game) can be a fallacious arguments designed to persuade.

[TwoInAMillion]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

You mean your fake check where you make up a guilty on someone, they end up being mislyched, and we are in a further hole?

Slander motion to strike from the record.

This is scummy. No reason to even post this as town.

I'm pointing out that Mulch's statements are not factually proven correct. How is that scummy?

Two things.
1. If you're town you don't know his alignment so saying his check would be fake is just furthering a push that he's scum without adding anything.

2. You easily could have just said you're only providing a single possible outcome Mulch that can't be proven. What you said can only be truthful if you're his scum partner cause you know the claim is fake and his check would be fake.

Pedit: that's cool I give no fucks about your record as scum because it doesn't pertain to the case at hand, and 2 your statement still doesn't do anything for your town rep. You could be lying, and as scum saying "If I was scum I would *insert thing here that I'm not doing this game*" is an easy lie to tell.

I'm 4-3 as town and 2-1 as scum. My wiki page is updated.

[TwoInAMillion]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

Ok you were quoting my post so my bad.
You mean your fake check where you make up a guilty on someone, they end up being mislyched, and we are in a further hole?

Slander motion to strike from the record.

This is scummy. No reason to even post this as town.

I'm pointing out that Mulch's statements are not factually proven correct. How is that scummy?

Two things.
1. If you're town you don't know his alignment so saying his check would be fake is just furthering a push that he's scum without adding anything.

2. You easily could have just said you're only providing a single possible outcome Mulch that can't be proven. What you said can only be truthful if you're his scum partner cause you know the claim is fake and his check would be fake.

Pedit: that's cool I give no fucks about your record as scum because it doesn't pertain to the case at hand, and 2 your statement still doesn't do anything for your town rep. You could be lying, and as scum saying "If I was scum I would *insert thing here that I'm not doing this game*" is an easy lie to tell.

I'm 4-3 as town and 2-1 as scum. My wiki page is updated.

Okay? The pedit was directed at Mulch not you lol. Pedit means I saw a post in my preview so I added that.

[TwoInAMillion]

Fallacies are a great way to lose games
Also it’s not a fallacy cause it’s true

So you are arguing a winning town strategy is to use as many fallacies as possible?

[TwoInAMillion]

You shouldn't blame other people that no one can understand you.

[TwoInAMillion]

You shouldn't blame other people that no one can understand you.

Benefit of the doubt and burden of proof asside I'm not convinced that any more or any less of my read on Mulch.

Mulch why are you voting 2iAM? Just give me an idea of the things that he's said that make you think they're scum

It's called OMGUS.

[TwoInAMillion]

Because the claim itself can be analyzed for indications of alignment:

Does the claim itself make sense? If not, are there counterclaims, do they make sense?
What benefit can scum gain from such a claim? Are those likely given the game state?
What motivated the claim? Is that likely to come from scum or town?
If the claim is true, how would scum react to it? If it's scum faking, how would his buddies react to it?

Questions like these are important. Town claim truthfully, so they don't have to think about the claim itself apart from 'is this the right time to expose my role?', scum fabricate it so they usually invent a game plan and come up with reasons to backup the claim.

It's day 1. We have had no nights yet. Scum would have to take a gamble that the fake claim wouldn't be countered. Does it make sense for mulch to do so when he did?

I can't answer all those questions confidently, but my conclusion is that it makes more sense to me as a legit claim.

But what about

a) The fact that he claimed when under little pressure to do so.

b) The fact that he claimed odd night which means he doesn't have to give results right away.

c) The fact that he is using wifom to justify his claim.

d) The fact that he is omgusing anyone who questions him.

e) Blaming others for his claim when it was all on him.

f) Using lack of a counterclaim as proof of his innocence when a counterclaim would mean loss of a town power role.

[TwoInAMillion]

Do I really need to read the last 5 pages of arguments?

Not really, most of it is Mulch bsing.

[TwoInAMillion]

Townblocking me, dh, sky, Hawk, Jodax and rb for now.

[TwoInAMillion]

But what about

a) The fact that he claimed when under little pressure to do so.

b) The fact that he claimed odd night which means he doesn't have to give results right away.

c) The fact that he is using wifom to justify his claim.

d) The fact that he is omgusing anyone who questions him.

e) Blaming others for his claim when it was all on him.

f) Using lack of a counterclaim as proof of his innocence when a counterclaim would mean loss of a town power role.

a) DH going after someone is pressure. Mulch saw that his predecessor got into an argument with someone and was then force replaced. DH is claiming vig and saying he wants to shoot mulch. How is that little pressure? This is not game pressure, it is personal pressure. And as a human he is likely to feel more flustered by it than anything else. It is clear that he regrets replacing in. There may not have been a lot of pressure from the rest of the players when he claimed, but he has always been in a stressful situation. You're a really strong person if you think you'd have been calm and composed in his position, which is great for you but not everyone is.

b) I have no way to refute this. But there is no evidence either way so it could also be the truth. Why wouldn't he claim odd night/normal cop and fake a read if he's scum and knows everybody's alignment? Much less risky for him. You're saying he's scum and choosing to keep himself either lynched/shot by DH/or under scrutiny until day 3 where he can finally try to support his claim? You absolutely CAN be right, but I don't see it as likely.

c) WIFOM is not alignment indicative. If you think it is I'll agree to disagree.

d) Okay this is typically more scummy but I haven't seen much of it, he's mostly against DH and people he claimed he had a scumread on who are also questioning. That's pretty reasonable. Or I missed something.

e) I definitely missed this.. where has he blamed someone else for it apart from blaming DH?

f) True but like I explained a counterclaim here is the correct play. We have the opportunity to lose a townie (particularly if people mislynch me), then DH wastes his shot on Mulch (which if he is lying like you are all saying then we don't need a vig to kill him we'll easily lynch him day 2 or 3), and keeps town here in day 1 where a lot of us don't know for sure who to lynch. Finding out someone is lying gives us a game plan.

I can't answer all those questions confidently, but my conclusion is that it makes more sense to me as a legit claim.

No it doesn’t make sense because of the manner in which it happened as others have mentioned. A CC day 1 isn’t going to happen because nobody CCs day 1.

Scum benefits by hoping to live longer and maybe have people actually believe him. Plus self preservation. Not to mention hoping somebody is stupid enough to CC and hopefully drawing a protective role off somebody else.

Fear motivated the claim. To me it’s less likely to come from town because a town Pr would handle it different and he’s not playing like town.

We disagree on something but that's a matter of opinion. I told you my conclusion is that he's town and telling the truth. I can see how people would conclude he's scum and I don't hold it against anybody. If this was easy we wouldn't have to debate. It'd be obvious what his alignment is. But like I said, I think a counterclaim should happen. If the real cop disagrees it's their opinion. You can't be sure that a cop is choosing not to counterclaim just as much as I can't be sure that there isn't a cop that can.




Sky - I was scumreading you in the early pages. I wasn't very sure about anyone, including yourself, but my gut was telling you were scum at the time. However you had barely posted, and barely anyone had interacted or even talked about you. If we did lynch you we would learn nothing apart from your flip. That is why I wanted 2inam/psyko/mulch because the game was and in some ways still is centered around them. That gives us more interactions and posts to analyze.

Inconsistency is not alignment indicative. There are not enough posts in the early game for people to form solid reads and people change their minds. In fact if anything it's town-aligned.
The rest of your case is a matter of interpretation. Believe me for a second that I am town and re read everything. The narrative would still make sense. You're just concluding that I'm scum.

Honestly me getting lynched is not that bad, IF DH was not lying when he said he wouldn't shoot mulch if a townie gets lynched. It is clear to me that town is vastly less skilled than scum at this stage (I'm part of the problem clearly, sorry) and it will force people to re-look at the game with fresh eyes. The earlier this happens in the game the better. It might be our chance to escape from the manipulations of scum subtly controlling our interpretation of the game. But full disclosure I have a selfish reason for it too: I'd rather everyone get it out of their system. Players I play with for the first time often mislynch me. DH is the only one who was in my newbie game and I was scum in it so he hasn't seen me play as town.


PEDIT- to answer your question prof - DH has an aggressive and confident play style. Players like that don't and shouldn't back down. He think Mulch is lying so he wants to shoot him. But there is no way that he isn't at least a little biased. Which is why he is choosing to shoot and not lynch. Much more personal.

That is of course assuming he is town. If DH is lying then his motivation is easy. He manipulated and frustrated a player to the point that most of the players are now angry and/or scumreading that player and he knows lynching mulch would be easy so he wants us to mislynch someone else first and then scum can manipulate us into lynching Mulch day 2.

The only other scenario is that they're both scum, though that by now would be very very very shocking, but I guess it would explain why DH didn't vote for mulch.[/quote]

If you say "A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K and L are not alignment indicative", then pretty soon it becomes alignment indicative.

[TwoInAMillion]

DH had already decided he was shooting the HEM/Mulch ‘slot’ before Mulch had even entered the game. If you look back at the reasons for that, they are ropey at best in my opinion - I was wondering who else had noticed that as it’s an interesting way to play the vig

True but claiming vig as sk day 1 would also be odd.

[TwoInAMillion]

I already explained my vote. I see Mulch and prolif as a scumteam.

[TwoInAMillion]

If the majority is hellbent on picking one of us then I intend to vote for psyko and use his flip as the inverse alignment of 2inam. But I'd rather we lynch 2inam and see how he flips.

Also if sky is right and 2inam flips town then maybe DH doesn't shoot as promised.

Saving his bullet and forcing scum to make a choice if they want to keep him alive. They might also pick mulch for the kill.
[/quote]

This is very poor logic. You should only strategically lynch town in very rare circumstances, and this isn't one of them. There are plenty of actually scummy people to consider lynching.

VOTE: BuJaber

[TwoInAMillion]

@Mulch: If you were a different player that was town in this game, would you assume you are town and why? From an objective standpoint, do you think your play so far has helped town?

[TwoInAMillion]

TIAM

- can you explain what made you think Mulchs vote on Jodaxq after my vote on BuJ (I think it was) made you conclude possible scum link?

Because a) There's no reason to assume Mulch was town and b) it makes it look like Mulch was trying to divert attention from you.

[TwoInAMillion]

It’s still uncontested so there is one reason. I’m not sure anyone we are playing with suffers from ADHD so I’m not buying distraction, especially since at the time half the team thought that 1 post from Jodaxq was was scum central.

Overall pretty weak to be hanging on to that 15 pages later!

I'm not going to change votes for the sake of changing votes. I'll change votes if I think there is someone worthy of changing my vote to. As far as distraction, scummy behavior isn't always obvious.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don’t really care about your vote I am just pleased to learn your logic is weak and i thought it would be useful to reiterate it. Vote as you will

It's not weak at all. Your counterargument is that people are paying attention therefore it isn't a good argument and someone else would have pointed it out. So whose argument is weak?

[TwoInAMillion]

you don't understand it therefore it's a poor argument? Scum want to divert attention away from their scumbuddies. How is that hard to understand?

[TwoInAMillion]

you don't understand it therefore it's a poor argument? Scum want to divert attention away from their scumbuddies. How is that hard to understand?

It’s a poor argument because this means anytime anyone votes anyone else then they’re “pulling attention away from their scumbuddies.” Your logic is crap here.

I didn't say anytime. I said specifically beause profil had just said to "assume that Mulch is town."

[TwoInAMillion]

You shouldn't allow yourself to get mad in mafia. You need to keep yourself in an interested state and be able to argue your cases and help your team. If you're not that's your fault not anyone elses.

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: Mulch

I've had enough of this.

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: Mulch

I've had enough of this.

I mean your scum so

I expected you to vote me

I’m mostly angry at the town who voting me

So I respect your vote, your playing to your win con

[TwoInAMillion]

because I'm town.

[TwoInAMillion]

because I'm town.

False, you’ve played with me and should know I’m town

The fact your voting me is a scumclaim to me

You're playing closer to your scumgame.

And you've done nothing to help town so even if you were playing 100% like your town game there's not much I can do to help you.

[TwoInAMillion]

ok

unvote vote scum

problem solved

Honestly I'm more inclined to think you and Mulch are scumbuddies than to unvote Mulch.

[TwoInAMillion]

because I'm town.

False, you’ve played with me and should know I’m town

The fact your voting me is a scumclaim to me

You're playing closer to your scumgame.

And you've done nothing to help town so even if you were playing 100% like your town game there's not much I can do to help you.

I’ll fully admit that I’m being anti- town

But you of all people should know the difference between anti town and scum

So I'm protecting town interests by voting for the people that are hurting town and you think I am scum for it? At some point we have to get rid of the elephant in the room.

[TwoInAMillion]

because I'm town.

False, you’ve played with me and should know I’m town

The fact your voting me is a scumclaim to me

You're playing closer to your scumgame.

And you've done nothing to help town so even if you were playing 100% like your town game there's not much I can do to help you.

I’ll fully admit that I’m being anti- town

But you of all people should know the difference between anti town and scum

So I'm protecting town interests by voting for the people that are hurting town and you think I am scum for it? At some point we have to get rid of the elephant in the room.

You do realize I would start helping town if I didn’t have to deal with this bullshit right?

And the nature of my role is pro town anyway

You wouldn't "have to deal with this bs" if you weren't so reactionary. No one is stopping you from doing actual scumhunting. There are scum cops and there is no proof that you aren't lying so there is nothing pro town about the nature of your role.

[TwoInAMillion]

True Cops are virtually useless for Mafiosi, as they already know who is in their faction (it is much more common for Mafia to have a Role Cop). However, it may still be of value to Mafia if there are multiple anti-Town factions.

[TwoInAMillion]

The funny thing is I have actually been an even night regular cop as scum on this site.

Was there a 3P in that game?:)

[TwoInAMillion]

third party, player not town or mafia.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't think it's fair to ask someone to replace out. Players should only replace out if there is some personal reason that they cannot play.

[TwoInAMillion]

@Hawk: the problem with not lynching him is the longer he stays in the game the more potential damage to town.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't think a town cop claims with no pressure. If he does he's the worst player in the history of mafia and I know he's not.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't think a town cop claims with no pressure. If he does he's the worst player in the history of mafia and I know he's not.

Lol it was out of anger you heartless steel-veined arbol-pumped machine

Nope, it was just a bad lie. And yes, I am heartless towards lying scum.

[TwoInAMillion]

Another reason I feel like Mulch is lying is that I feel a Vig and a Cop would be a lot of power in one town, and I doubt that DH is lying. On the other hand, I feel like it's entirely possible that Mulch is gambiting and he's actually VT, but if that's the case that's completely on him and he deserves to be lynched.

[TwoInAMillion]

Fair enough, but it's reasonable to assume that there are other power roles as well that haven't been claimed.

[TwoInAMillion]

I meant considering there are probably more roles.

[TwoInAMillion]

I would really prefer a Mulch lynch but I am willing to go with WOTC.

VOTE: BuJaber

[TwoInAMillion]

Well we are 23 hours away from deadline.

[TwoInAMillion]

PS and Mulch trying to force a NL...

[TwoInAMillion]

I switched to bujaber

[TwoInAMillion]

Because hawk has been mostly townie.

[TwoInAMillion]

Yes.

[TwoInAMillion]

when did BuJaber claim?

[TwoInAMillion]

I must admit I'm not comfortable with the multiple wagons on the last day.

[TwoInAMillion]

Is the whole purpose of this game to have as many worthless roles as possible?

[TwoInAMillion]

Lynching me may be low risk since I am vanilla nut if you are going to do that it would be better to no lynch.

[TwoInAMillion]

The first point is fine
The middle point I don't actually know the stats, but I think the logic that scum will aim for town is a reasonable principle. I went back and spotted the 1 shot bit, I didn't realise that until now. The bit that is most interesting here is no one seemed to correct TIAM & TIAM just assumed Derpy had the potential to be a SK despite saying one shot vig. I missed it so I can't argue he is ignoring the facts but it's an option
The last point - yeah I was just trying to look at the angle where you are scum to see if it made sense. Your logical analysis I like, but I just thought it became too conveniently appealing to everyone, a bit like a horoscope

Never heard of a 1 shot sk?

[TwoInAMillion]

So he only shoots once. Thaats not hard.

[TwoInAMillion]

I never said it was likely but he's not confirmed town.

[TwoInAMillion]

Being a good liar is necessary in mafia, if you are bad at least.

[TwoInAMillion]

I think it would be dumb for the mod to make the game breakable based on claims.

[TwoInAMillion]

Derpy Hooves, has got it going on, derpy hooves has got it going on...

I'm sticking with my townblock.

VOTE: PsychoSavant

[TwoInAMillion]

I think it is more likely for their to be 2 scum that 3 scum.

[TwoInAMillion]

Not safe to assume. It's called mod WIFOM.

[TwoInAMillion]

He protected himself? Die.

[TwoInAMillion]

VOTE: psycho

Normal guidelines don’t allow self protection

Normal Guidelines
A Doctor that cannot self-target and protects their target from one kill is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Mafia Doctor in a Normal game does not return a guilty result to a Gunsmith (unless it is part of a Jack of All Trades), although this may be different in Theme games, depending on the moderator's interpretation. A Doctor cannot stop a Strongman from committing a kill, nor a Weak role from dying due to targeting anti-town. Protection would also fail if targeting a Macho or Ascetic role, although the Doctor should not be told if this happens, just like if they were blocked.

Pulled straight from the wiki.

My bet is he is a JoAT or a strongman and assumes that if he is here there is a doctor.

Also this heavily smells like 3 scum team or 3rd partt cause claiming doc there is suicide for scum but Derpy isn't wrong.

This sounds like coaching...

[TwoInAMillion]

That was a quick day:).

[TwoInAMillion]

Coaching in main thread when we established there was day talk ages ago? I mean...that's pretty reachy and not only that I kinda doubt that Hawk is scum at this stage

I agree with you I am just saying on the surface that could be coaching.

[TwoInAMillion]

Suggesting he should reclaim JoaT.

[TwoInAMillion]

If there is a day 3.

[TwoInAMillion]

I'd say 60/40 2v9

[TwoInAMillion]

Masons/Commuter isn't really that helpful. Vig only helpful if they shoot scum, tracker not confirmed yet.

[TwoInAMillion]

sorry never got a day start notice, will catch up later.

[TwoInAMillion]

Oh yay we won. good job.

[TwoInAMillion]

yeah, not a fan of mods using these red herrings. so many people use setup speculation to game solve and it ends up fucking town over

The point of red herrings is so that you can not easily tell what the set up is by role association.