Micro 767: Spyro the Dragon Mafia - Game Over

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Wisdom

competing wagons

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: garaputo

VOTE: Radical Rat

Hey. Why?

[Kublai Khan]

@wisdom - I gather you've played with garaputo before. Has he said anything notable so far?

@garaputo - Could you not post large images for the sake of silly jokes?

[Kublai Khan]

I'm happy putting Radical Rat on the town list for now. Maybe garaputo too. Maybe.

[Kublai Khan]

Late to the party.

VOTE: BuJaber

[Kublai Khan]

UC Voyager is second scummiest.

[Kublai Khan]

UC Voyager is second scummiest.

agreement

Can you explain what is scummy about my posts?

Stuff like spending time and energy asking people why they think they are scummy. Especially with no (now 1) votes/pressure on them. Scummy people tend to worry more about how scummy they are.

I also can't figure out a reason you would need more evidence of scumminess to move your move to BuJaber.

[Kublai Khan]

UC Voyager is second scummiest.

agreement

Can you explain what is scummy about my posts?

Stuff like spending time and energy asking people why they think they are scummy. Especially with no (now 1) votes/pressure on them. Scummy people tend to worry more about how scummy they are.

I also can't figure out a reason you would need more evidence of scumminess to move your move to BuJaber.

A. im just scum hunting right now. im not concerned about how scummy i am! imo, you are reacting a lot to questions
B. it is page fucking 3. why would i be voting on page three when RVS Is over? especially with only a post or two i find scummy!

A. Okay. But you literally were asking what is scummy about your posts.
B. I don't know. I'm voting you to find out more about your philosophy about mafia to determine the reason behind your actions and inactions. Why aren't you asking why we are voting on "page fucking 3" if it's a ridiculous thing to you?
C. Do you curse often or did I hit a nerve?

[Kublai Khan]

@BuJaber - Why are you putting Radical Rat at L-2?

[Kublai Khan]

Okay.

UNVOTE: BuJaber
VOTE: UC Voyager

[Kublai Khan]

Can someone explain the town intention here?

Scum have Daytalk. It's very likely they would have discussed what my role is and devised a strategy to deal with it.

Since BuJaber hadn't given it a thought, it means he's very likely in the uninformed majority (aka town).

[Kublai Khan]

I dont follow

how does bu voting rat means he didnt give a thought about your role?

I assume scum would have checked what "Desperado" IC was.

[Kublai Khan]

yes, still don't get how's that related to bu

Eh. I could be wrong.

[Kublai Khan]

it only works day one.

Hmm? Me too.

@everyone: Thoughts on mass claim?

[Kublai Khan]

Also the mod stated there are fake claims; I feel it could cause too much confusion

Mod said we can't break the game via flavor claiming.

[Kublai Khan]

im against a mass claim; the mod isn't an idiot and has probably accounted for it

Appealing to the Mod is a weak counter-argument.

I'm sure you know the common arguments for Day 1 Mass Claim. How are you arguing against those?

[Kublai Khan]

i don't, and i find mass claim d1 stupid in any game

In all your time you've never seen a D1 mass claim benefit town? Really?

The most prominent pro-argument is that scum are locked into claims early on. It restricts their ability to make convincing claims both early on and allows town to uncover their thought process after a few cycles where their decision making makes no sense.

[Kublai Khan]

I think this plan is stupid and I am likely to refuse to claim on general principle.

If you refuse to claim and can't come up with a better argument than "the plan is stupid" then you will die.

[Kublai Khan]

I think this plan is stupid and I am likely to refuse to claim on general principle.

If you refuse to claim and can't come up with a better argument than "the plan is stupid" then you will die.

Get the votes and do it then. I'd rather play mafia than whatever this claim or no claim thing is.

If you can convince everyone I'm scum because I don't want to go through with this bad plan, guess what, a game of actual mafia broke out!

I can be convinced to not go with the mass claim plan if you have a good argument. "It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.

garaputo is right; all youve managed to do is halt the game and let scum hide in "lets claim" posts

You're halting the game by dodging/ignoring my questions. Convince me that mass claim is a bad idea.

Also, are you clearing garaputo? Why would scum be in the "lets claim" posts and not on the "lets not claim" side? Wouldn't scum likely be one on each side of this argument?

[Kublai Khan]

"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.

ive played in like 150 games and none of them did it

the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.

It's certainly not against the "spirit of the game". The spirit of the game is to play towards win condition. If mass claiming helps that, then not mass claiming goes against the spirit of the game.

I'm town and if we assume that UC Voyager is town, then two non-vanilla roles have been outed, giving scum beneficial targets. So, does your argument still hold up?

[Kublai Khan]

Also, this game is nightless, which means no night-kills. So if everything is on the table, we can 1) work out a plan and 2) trap scum into claims they may regret.

Convince me of a reason not to mass claim that don't include the words "stupid" or "bad". I'm not trying to steamroll the game. You feel strongly about your position so convince me I'm wrong.

[Kublai Khan]

Scum likely have some kind of anti claim.

I don't think it's likely. The mod specifically lists that they have been given flavor claims, not fake claims. That gives me the impression that they are on their own.

This logic is flawed.

1) From a neutral point of view, it's not clear why you or UCV are town, let alone that you are not vanilla.

Dude...

I said in post 118

the claim will likely allow the scum to zero in on the right folks to kill.

What have you said that acknowledges or contradicts this?

I'd say that it's information their already have. A confirmed-town Innocent Child is already someone that scum will target for elimination. Our voice is our greatest weapon and scumm will silence the loudest voices first. We are all already targets, the surprise mass claim eliminates their ability to camouflage.

Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.

This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now

Neither do scum. Isn't it to the scum's advantage to keep town blindly guessing and pointing fingers until we get to a Day X LyLo or MyLo situation?

This could be a mostly vanilla game or a role-madness game. Neither Town nor Scum knows that at this point, so scum is at bigger risk claiming today then waiting until a few flips happen.

Then why did you act like you weren't?

I like to understand a plan before I react to it. I inquired as to logistics.

Was there a specific set of logistics that you would be open to? If so, what was it?

[Kublai Khan]

"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.

ive played in like 150 games and none of them did it

the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.

It's certainly not against the "spirit of the game". The spirit of the game is to play towards win condition. If mass claiming helps that, then not mass claiming goes against the spirit of the game.

I'm town and if we assume that UC Voyager is town, then two non-vanilla roles have been outed, giving scum beneficial targets. So, does your argument still hold up?

This logic is flawed.

1) From a neutral point of view, it's not clear why you or UCV are town, let alone that you are not vanilla.

I mean. From a neutral point of view he's a mod confirmed desperado IC.

Derp on me for forgetting that Desperado IC part, but the lotic applies still to the collective form of "you" there.

This is bugging me. Did you also forget that UC Voyager is mod-confirmed to be non-vanilla as well?

[Kublai Khan]

For what it's worth I think garaputo is town.

What's your read on Wisdom? Could there be any truth to his argument that "scum are hiding behind "Let's claim"?

[Kublai Khan]

Same argument. Unless you are scum, you have no idea what the scum know or don't. The mod has explicitly stated "Power Roles were decided by flavour, VTs were then randomised from a list of characters, the left over characters were then given to scum as fakeclaims,
it is impossible to break the game via flavour"

Okay. That quote doesn't support your argument.

Once upon a time way back in the early days mods would design games around a theme where the good characters are town and the evil characters are scum. As a way to get the benefits of massclaiming but reduce the downsides, clever players suggest a mass flavour claim. So everyone would claim what character they had (keeping their role secret). Mods didn't care for that since it broke their games, so one way to stop that was to do what Not_Mafia did.

Massclaiming is a valid tactic, but the downside has to be acknowledged.

In your best case scenario, the town tell the truth, the scum lie, and pick bad lies. Even in that best case scenario the scum gain more correct information than the town does.

Okay, right. Succinctly put. But in the worse case scenario, scum still has more information than town does. So, that's moot.

Here's the wrinkle: I am an Innocent Child, but I'm also a Day 1 Desperado. What that means is that I'm a Day 1 Dayvig. If I vig scum, then I survive and continue. If I vig town, then I die instead. I can only vig Day 1 and if I don't, then I also die along with the lynched (town or scum).

I've been selfish in wanting to mass claim because I think it gives me more information. I don't need any votes to pressure anyone to go along with the plan, but I think it's a waste to vig based on playstyle/philosophical differences. I wanted to debate the plan before claiming because I thought I could have more honest discussion, but both Wisdom and garaputo seem entrenched in a counter-position. Which could be either for philosophical differences or because they fear claiming badly as scum. garaputo seemed at least willing to engage, although not totally convincingly.

Alisaes French Maid stayed out of discussion, then diplomatically sat the fence. So that's pinging my scumdar as well but a lesser extant.
Radical Rat is coming off very town.
I'm very wary of UC Voyager's claim because it seems to be a check of sorts on my power. If someone gets voted to L-2, then UC Voyager could potentially speed-lynch town and kill me off as well. His claiming it unprompted is completely not-scummy through. So there's a possibility that he's actually town and it's a pitfall against competing aggressive town not co-operating with each other. Which pushed me towards the mass-claim plan.

Wisdom... well, he put up 3 terrible arguments against mass claiming ("stupid", "against spirit of the game", and "scum hide in 'let's claim' posts"). If deadline were tomorrow, then I'd be taking a shot at Wisdom unless he wants to abandon the low-verbiage shtick and explain himself.

[Kublai Khan]

wow talk about shallow

please shoot me quickly so i can conftown

Yeah... It's stuff like this that bugs me. Instead of pointing me towards scum so that one scum dies and we keep a conftown, you push a plan of keeping scum alive, killing a townie to die so you can continue posting useless two lines posts for another day.

"Great" plan. Way to out-shallow me.

[Kublai Khan]

scum still has more information than town does. So, that's moot.

This is about the worst possible reason to give scum more information.

That's really the only thing you have to say?

[Kublai Khan]

About that post, yes. The rest was noise.

Well, I'm certainly less inspired to put effort into winning this game. Thanks, scum.

Yeah... It's stuff like this that bugs me. Instead of pointing me towards scum so that one scum dies and we keep a conftown, you push a plan of keeping scum alive, killing a townie to die so you can continue posting useless two lines posts for another day.

"Great" plan. Way to out-shallow me.

why are you assuming wisdom is town rather than scum wifoming you on the shot?

He was a townread in the beginning. He's been dropping with every post he makes.

[Kublai Khan]

because youre shallow and think posting means town

This isn't a Kingmaker game.

Why would I speedlynch?

If you were scum...

[Kublai Khan]

*waves gun randomly*

[Kublai Khan]

Well, everyone is for a massclaim except Wisdom, garaputo, and Alisaes French Maid.

So our lynch pool is reduced to 3 people because I'm waving a gun.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, everyone is for a massclaim except Wisdom, garaputo, and Alisaes French Maid.

So our lynch pool is reduced to 3 people because I'm waving a gun.

The moderator has put certain restraints on the limits of how I can react to this post. Consider this solely about your proposed plan and not about you.

You can't fix stupid.

Would it be a bad idea to vig you?

[Kublai Khan]

Well, everyone is for a massclaim except Wisdom, garaputo, and Alisaes French Maid.

So our lynch pool is reduced to 3 people because I'm waving a gun.

The moderator has put certain restraints on the limits of how I can react to this post. Consider this solely about your proposed plan and not about you.

You can't fix stupid.

Would it be a bad idea to vig you?

Depends, is your goal to kill town?

You can't call me stupid if you can't be bothered to read noise.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, everyone is for a massclaim except Wisdom, garaputo, and Alisaes French Maid.

So our lynch pool is reduced to 3 people because I'm waving a gun.

The moderator has put certain restraints on the limits of how I can react to this post. Consider this solely about your proposed plan and not about you.

You can't fix stupid.

Would it be a bad idea to vig you?

Depends, is your goal to kill town?

You can't call me stupid if you can't be bothered to read noise.

I wasn't calling you stupid, I was explicitly not doing that. I was calling the plan to lynch folks against the mass claim stupid.

Also my response was meant a bit tongue-in-cheek in case that wasn't obvious.

So, do you want to comment on any of it? I mean, I'm not sure how tongue-in-cheek stuff is helping. We need to come up with a Day 1 plan instead of dicking around.

[Kublai Khan]

I think my comment is clear, don't vig me.

I doubt there is wisdom in vigging wisdom.

If you weren't modfirmed your role would be precisely the sort of mechanism I think the scum would have.

Okay. I'm trying to work with you. But none of that was helpful.

Think beyond "how does this affect me personally" and think about how best to get town to win this game. I want to give you a hand in choosing who I vig, but in return you have to reveal your role. That's the deal.

You can choose not to and you'll be a potential vig victim. In which case (since you still didn't read my "noise"), you would still be alive and mod-confirmed town and I would be dead.

[Kublai Khan]

I am willing to help you pick a target, but I'm not willing to reveal my role to you today.

No deal.

I think you are mixing up "haven't responded to" and "haven't read" regarding that post.

Why are you putting off responding to it?

[Kublai Khan]

Either way we are left with 1 conf town.
It isn't a big deal to me tbh + being an IC would be nice.

You know what's better than a dead towny and you being a conftown?

A dead scum.

Your "shoot me!" bluff is scummy WIFOM. Being pro-mass claim would be town.

[Kublai Khan]

I mean I guess?

You know that mafia is a numbers game, right? Scum win when they outnumber town. How does someone, as town, immediately jump to a plan of "hey, let me get shot so Kublai dies and I can be conftown" and think it's a good plan? It's a net loss of 1 town.

Just as scummy as when Wisdom offered the same plan. And both of you are anti-claiming. Hmm.

[Kublai Khan]

Being pro-mass claim would be town.

Not so much this.

Okay. Let's break this down because I honestly don't know what you hang-up is.

Let's review basic facts:
In an 8 player game, there's probably two scum. Could be three, but that's very unlikely.
Scum can daytalk and tell each other their role.
My role was mod-confirmed at the start of the game. Anyone with an ounce of desire to win the game, likely went to the mafia wiki and learned what a Desperado was if they didn't know already.
UC Voyager demonstrated his role unprompted.

So, if I assume UC Voyager is town (and I'm currently leaning that way because his claim was unprompted), then scum already know half of the roles in the game (4 out of 8). They know their power and they can assume relative town power and if they have any experience balancing games then they know how much relative power is left on the town side and can claim accordingly.

By the time we get to a LYLO situation, scum should have an excellent fakeclaim cooked up. Right now, then have a marginal one at best.

Since I have to ask you a direct question for you to comment instead of ignoring my posts as noise: @garaputo - Is any of the above incorrect?

Continuing...

Since I have the penalty that I die if I don't dayvig, that means our lynch is eliminated for today. In fact..

Unvote

Which means everyone can argue and make their cases and convince me to shoot a certain person. Or we can do a massclaim so that we can work out a plan together.

The only reasons I can think of not to massclaim today under these conditions is either because your role is mafia or because you're entertaining dreams of being a hero who survives an breaks important game info at the last minute to nail scum.

So, @garaputo - Are you a team player, a hero, scum, or.... something else?

[Kublai Khan]

I love playing mafia games where everyone tunnels and nobody talks. That's the spirit of the game.

[Kublai Khan]

Khan, does you shooting someone end the day?

Doesn't specify actually.

[Kublai Khan]

*waves gun menacingly towards Alisaes French Maid*

[Kublai Khan]

Okay.

Day Vig: Alisaes French Maid

[Kublai Khan]

Neat. I was right.

VOTE: Wisdom

[Kublai Khan]

@Not_Mafia

Would you mind prodding northsidegal & Radical Rat?

[Kublai Khan]

Just of note. It's still Day 1 so UC Voyager still is a Double-Voter. Be mindful.

[Kublai Khan]

Also, I really don't see northsidegal is being scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Analysis of Alisaes French Maid's play
Random(?) vote on garaputo
Early townread + defense of Radical Rat
Questioning northsidegal
Throws shade on UC Voyager
votes northsidegal
anti-mass claim

I dunno. This play sample really casts most suspicion on UC Voyager. A little scum distancing, but no vote. Plus I still feel like it's a scum counter-balance to my role. (Day 1 fight)
VOTE: UC Voyager

@UC Voyager: Walk me through your thought process behind your play. Why did you claim unprompted? Why did feel the need to clarify that it's Day 1 ability only? Why didn't you do both in the same post?

[Kublai Khan]

@garaputo - What's your current read on UC Voyager?

[Kublai Khan]

@garaputo - What's your current read on UC Voyager?

I think you and I take the way UCV revealed the doublevote and day restriction in pretty opposite ways. I have a slight town read on UCV because of that, but I will review.

Well, the thing that bugs me about the day restriction is that it's unprovable. It might just be a lie to make it seem like his power is nerfed.

[Kublai Khan]

@garaputo - What's your current read on UC Voyager?

I think you and I take the way UCV revealed the doublevote and day restriction in pretty opposite ways. I have a slight town read on UCV because of that, but I will review.

Well, the thing that bugs me about the day restriction is that it's unprovable. It might just be a lie to make it seem like his power is nerfed.

Whether or not it's true, it's not necessary to claim it *then*

I guess I'm figuring that they knew they had a Day 2 vig and a Day 1 vig existed, therefore they knew single-day powers were a re-occurring motif in this game.

I'll grant that it's pure speculation plus the Alisaes French Maid non-vote is what's nagging at me. I'll give a hard look at your northsidegal case tomorrow.

[Kublai Khan]

VC 1.11

garaputo (0)-

northsidegal (0)-

Wisdom (0)-

Radical Rat (0)-

BuJaber (0)-

UC Voyager (4)-

garaputo, northsidegal, Kublai Khan, Radical Rat

(L-2)

Kublai Khan (0)-

Not Voting (3)-

Wisdom, BuJaber, UC Voyager

With 7 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2018-01-10 13:15:00) - Jan 10th 13:15 GMT

@mod

: Is this accurate? garaputo is voting UC Voyager and not northsidegal?

[Kublai Khan]

Hmm.. Good points, actually.

UNVOTE: UC Voyager

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Wisdom

Lurking like a mo-fo.

[Kublai Khan]

Maybe I misunderstood what you're trying to say but who said anything about day 2 day vig?

We had day 1 day vig (khan) and it is still day 1.

Check the sun flip

[Kublai Khan]

Stupid phone.

The SCUM flip

[Kublai Khan]

What I know about setup is that I had to publicly state my dayvig. Looking at Alisaes French Maid's role PM, she did not.

UC Voyager's double vote is accounted for by the mod (7 alive, 5 to lynch). Which means that we (as town) have to convince UC Voyager to go along with a lynch. If UC Voyager was scum, then it's really odd that we'd have to convince the last remaining scum to vote a certain way to get a lynch.

If UC Voyager is exactly what he says he is, then he is a VT tomorrow and we can deal with that later.

Right now, with the remaining time, I'd like to encourage a wagon on lurking Wisdom.

[Kublai Khan]

please shoot me quickly so i can conftown

Just a reminder that Wisdom had the exact same reaction to my day vig claim that Alisaes French Maid had. And she turned scum.

Is UC Voyager is lying about being a Day 1 Double Voter, we can find out and hash it out on Day 2.

But Wisdom is scum.

[Kublai Khan]

it's not that i think ucv is lying about being a day 1 doublevoter, it's that i think that makes him scum. now, i've certainly been burned in the past many times by being too adamantly against lurker / low-content lynches, but i feel like from wisdom's reaction to the massclaim idea he's town. beeboy went against it but not really in any sort of "attempt to convince town that this is a bad idea" way, but moreso in a "i'll state the obvious and take the position that seems more likely to be townread but without doing so with real conviction" way. compared to wisdom's reaction, it seems townie to me.

The only reason Wisdom reacted so much to it was because I pushed him to do so. And I disagree that it was a town reaction. His arguments against were vague and generalized, which suggests that he's leaving himself ample room to not corner himself into a story should a mass claim actually happen.

Also, compare his participation. At the beginning of the game, he was busy taking little digs at people. But after a scum turn he becomes immediately aloof and pops in only to prod dodge and continue a meaningless one person wagon. I realize that lethargy is NAI, but the fact that it starts immediately after a scum death is suspicious. It's like he felt his chances of winning diminish.

[Kublai Khan]

even if you think his arguments were vague, i'd say that his stance on it was pretty solid. for me, it's the fact that it was this thing that it really seems to me that he has genuine convictions on that got him to start posting that makes him town. like, it feels really genuine that he held the strong opinion that massclaims are bad and that we shouldn't do one. beeboy did what i would think a scum taking that position would do, make their position known but not really attempt to prevent a massclaim at all, given that it still benefits scum for it to happen. if wisdom with scum with beeboy and knew that they had the day-2 vig, i think don't think we would have seen the slight playstyle change that i think exists.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but remember that Alisaes French Maid's actions didn't quite make sense either. A Day 2 dayvig should have been pro-massclaim because it would give her the best target to choose from if she was alive tomorrow.

So either her partner was pro-massclaim and she was taking a divergent path. But it comes back to Wisdom's really bad post that "both scum are hiding on the 'pro-claim' side". It just strikes me as a super WIFOM comment to make. And the "shoot me so I'm conftown" idea is also super-WIFOM. When I add together all the red flag, Wisdom is the way to go.

Also, I do think that the UC Voyager situation is something we can punt to tomorrow. And we need a lynch before deadline.

Join the Wisdom wagon.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: rat

back to l-1

Any lynch'll do?

[Kublai Khan]

My last wish:

Massclaim

VOTE: Radical Rat

[Kublai Khan]

I can't imagine a reason why a VT would want a massclaim.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm still alive.

VOTE: Wisdom

[Kublai Khan]

I'm not liking this just vote without discussion thing much. I'm also not able to do much rereading right now. I should have time later tonight.

Widsom has been voting northsidegal without a reason and hopped on the Radical Rat wagon without a reason.

[Kublai Khan]

Hmm.. Nobody else vote of a second. I just want to verify that UC Voyager was being truthful. If 7 votes are at play in the game, then the mod would still list it as 4 to lynch.

@UC Voyager: Could you write a post where you vote for someone twice just to make sure your double vote is gone?

@northsidegal: I'm not sure why you'd want to lynch UC Voyager. He's been truthful (assuming..) and if he were scum, he doesn't appear to have an ability to kill.

[Kublai Khan]

@northsidegal: I'm not sure why you'd want to lynch UC Voyager. He's been truthful (assuming..) and if he were scum, he doesn't appear to have an ability to kill.

??? because i think he's scum? it was never about wanting to get rid of the double vote just in case it was scum.

But you can't just ignore setup stuff because it's inconvenient.

[Kublai Khan]

i don't understand what's inconvenient about it – i get that he's not lying about being a day one double voter, i've always got that. what i'm asking is why that precludes him from being scum?

As scum, he had incentive to lie but didn't. That has to be taken into some account.

I grant that he could possibly be honest scum, but that makes him way less scum than Wisdom.

[Kublai Khan]

what incentive did he have to lie? there's literally

no way

that he could have hidden the doublevoting aspect of his role if he intended to use it unlike beeboy who, if i recall correctly, could have dayvigged someone just by pming the mod.

Your analysis seems to be ignoring that we had zero idea that he was a double-voter until he made it completely public out of nowhere. You're selling me that that's a scum move?

wisdom doesn't seem to be making any effort to win the game, yes, but it also doesn't seem like he's scum coasting – i would presume scum in his situation would at least have

something

to say in the scenario that he's been in. that's not to say that i'm not eventually willing to lynch him if the game continues, just that i think he's more likely to be town than ucv is.

So if Wisdom was scum, he'd be doing exactly what you're doing now?

[Kublai Khan]

Your analysis seems to be ignoring that we had zero idea that he was a double-voter until he made it completely public out of nowhere. You're selling me that that's a scum move?

answer me this – what

would

be a scum way of revealing the double vote, outside of some obvious scenario of using it to quickhammer someone at l-2?

That's been one of my points. If he's scum with a public Day 1 only double vote at his disposal, then this is a bastard game where the mod screwed him over.

wisdom doesn't seem to be making any effort to win the game, yes, but it also doesn't seem like he's scum coasting – i would presume scum in his situation would at least have

something

to say in the scenario that he's been in. that's not to say that i'm not eventually willing to lynch him if the game continues, just that i think he's more likely to be town than ucv is.

So if Wisdom was scum, he'd be doing exactly what you're doing now?

if by "doing exactly what you're doing now" you mean "saying anything game-relevant at all", then yes, that's what i think he would be doing. if you intended that as pointing out some sort of hypocrisy (which is what it feels like you're insinuating), then i'm not really sure what to say.

His behavior is causing him to completely fly under your radar. And it's working.

[Kublai Khan]

THis game is dragging as both UC Voyager and Wisdom are testing the patience of the other players.

I'm ready to lynch one then the other. FFS.

[Kublai Khan]

You guys are still townreading Wisdom? Seriously?

[Kublai Khan]

arent you tired yet dude

A little. Maybe we should lynch you and end the game.

[Kublai Khan]

whatever. i'd like to hear kublai's thoughts, i might hammer bu after that.

@mod, prod kublai khan?

Why would you do that ?

Because I'm awesome?

Sorry, was real busy. I'll get caught up this by this evening.

[Kublai Khan]

I think I agree most with northsidegal. Wisdom's "good" reaction reeks of BS. It's been made known in thread many time, sometimes directly to him, that UC Voyager is a Double voter on Day 1 only (not that UC Voyager bothered to prove to us that it was Day 1 only).

So now a townread depends on whether Wisdom is so incredibly indifferent to this game that he's not reading anything and isn't keeping track of the major important info or he's scum pretending to be that indifferent because surely a last remaining scum wouldn't be indifferent.

@Wisdom - If you are town, you apparently just do not care about this game and therefore probably don't care if you win or not. Since you already have 2 prods and aren't reading the game at all, would you mind asking someone else on site to replace into your slot?



Two strongest townreads are on garaputo and northsidegal. UC Voyager is next, and then BuJager. Wisdom is the wildcard that needs to be addressed before it gets to endgame.

[Kublai Khan]

Well if the votecount is any indication, mod isn't counting 2 votes for UCV this time. So he doesn't have it D2.

No, it doesn't.

Remember, at the start of the game the Mod said "With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch." Whether there are 8 votes available or 9 votes, it's 5 to lynch. The Double voter is hidden by the rounding power of conventional math. After we lynched Alisaes French Maid, it was "With 7 alive, it takes 5 to lynch." This exposed a double voter because it should be "4 to lynch".

Now today it's "With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch." Which means that if UC Voyager is still a double voter, it's hidden by math again. I asked him to vote twice, but it got ignored because he lurked until prodded and then just ignored my request.

i dont replace out of games

Yeah, of course you don't. I figured as much.

Here's the issue:

1) I'm mod-confirmed town. So I'm not playing any scum trick where I'm trying to trip you up or confuse you into doing something. I am legitimately trying to win the game.
2) You are clinging to a playstyle where you say as little as possible. Because you are trying to protect your meta more than you are trying to win. This is a shitty way to play mafia, but that's a total aside. You are also very experienced (claimed 150 finished games).
3) At the beginning of the game, you were actively making observations, pointed remarks, applying pressure.
4) Then about the time that scum dies, your playstyle completely changes. You active lurk. You either post every couple of days or are prodded to do so.
5) At no time did you vote for the player flipped scum.
6) You used the same WIFOM argument that scum did ("shoot me so I can become conftown").
7) You actively pushed for me to target players that did not feature scum. (268)
8) You jumped on the wagon to lynch town for no reason.
9) You are pushing for speedlynches and are pushing bad advice-info Post 494
10) Your "I'm lynched? Go town" is something you've likely seen dozens of times in your 150 games. And you're likely not shitty enough to be paying so little attention to setup.


Wisdom needs to be lynched today. Why aren't we lynching Wisdom today?

[Kublai Khan]

when i flip youll realize its not all as black and white as that

Sure, I acknowledge that. But you took a shitty vow to uphold your shitty meta of not posting complex thoughts in a game where it's helpful for your follow players to understand the motivations behind your actions. So based on what you did post and what you didn't post, you are most likely to be scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Hold up guys. Can we stop for second think long and hard about gara's band wagoning?

Could you read one of my posts and humor me for a goddamn minute?

Write

Code: Select all

[Vote]Kublai Khan[/vote]
[vote]Kublai Khan[/vote]

and leave it there until the mod gives a votecount.

[Kublai Khan]

ucv has already confirmed that he's no longer a double voter. he did the same "vote: both on x" that he did day one and the mod didn't count it here whereas he did yesterday.

There was no vote count between the "vote both on wisdom" and then his vote change.

It's such a minor thing but I'm annoyed at having to ask 2 or 3 times.

[Kublai Khan]

Fair point.

So... back to the lynching Wisdom idea?

[Kublai Khan]

sheep me!

VOTE: uc voyager

My case on Wisdom is stronger than yours.

[Kublai Khan]

Thanks for playing

Scum is definitely nsg/garaputo. I need time to figure out which.

Why not Wisdom?

[Kublai Khan]

Wisdom has become more interested in the game but not more interested in staying alive.
However that did not translate into being more analytical or arguing more or trying to accuse/defend people.

Yes he could be scum and faking. Yes he could be scum and not faking. But if he is scum I would expect more attempts at manipulating town. Also I don't think the weird interaction with UCV's hammer reaction test is a scum one.

Plus I still haven't changed my mind about what I originally said in day 1 that one scum would probably be among those against massclaim and one for massclaim. AFM was against, so I'm hesitant to think either wisdom/gara is the 2nd scum. I'm obviously treating this part of my reasoning with a grain of salt but I won't lie it factors in a little.

nsg fits my idea of perfect scum. Appear town, use townie logic to build cases against those who make weak arguments, stay active but not too active, ask provocative questions that make people feel more confident of themselves. Basically he played me well and I don't even feel like I was played. I was totally behind the UCV lynch, the fact that he flipped town is just an unfortunate result.

That being said I'd love to be wrong, because it would mean I was right. I've wanted to lynch wisdom forever him and rat were my first scumreads. That just doesn't matter anymore because we need to analyze the facts in front of us.

Excellent. This is an analysis from a town's perspective. It's naive and wrong in places, but the mentality matches your experience perfectly.

Wisdom is still strongly manipulating the town. He is capable of a lot more activity, but instead he's peppering the game with "Zzz" and "let's keep lynching, it's auto-win" and putting up lynch preferences. If he stops and debates me, then he draws attention to himself. So he's not. Being overly concerned with staying alive looks scummy so he's not doing that.

hmm so NM has confirmed that scum have fakeclaims in the game notes. I don't know if that necessary means that nsg wouldn't change her mind about the massclaims if she were scum, but maybe my last point is not as strong as I thought. Or maybe it's stronger. What do you guys think? Does that make a difference?

This again?

I've already addressed this. Scum do not have fakeclaims. They have unused characters they can use for fakeclaims. For example: They know that nobody has _CHARACTER X_, so they can safely claim _CHARACTER X_ in their fakeclaim. That's all that means. It's a measure to stop the town from breaking the game via a flavorclaim.

[Kublai Khan]

Also, let's lynch bu.

No, he's town and you've driven the last two mislynches.

We are lynching Wisdom today.

VOTE: Wisdom

[Kublai Khan]

Thanks for the game, Not_Mafia. And I think your analysis is dead on. I guess he could have tried to somehow taunt my shot away from Alisaes French Maid, but that's a tough call to make in the moment.

Thanks for playing @ everyone else!