Micro 767: Spyro the Dragon Mafia - Game Over
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Stuff like spending time and energy asking people why they think they are scummy. Especially with no (now 1) votes/pressure on them. Scummy people tend to worry more about how scummy they are.In post 66, UC Voyager wrote:In post 60, Kublai Khan wrote:UC Voyager is second scummiest.
Can you explain what is scummy about my posts?In post 61, Wisdom wrote:agreement
I also can't figure out a reason you would need more evidence of scumminess to move your move to BuJaber.Occasionally intellectually honest
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A. Okay. But you literally were asking what is scummy about your posts.In post 74, UC Voyager wrote:
A. im just scum hunting right now. im not concerned about how scummy i am! imo, you are reacting a lot to questionsIn post 73, Kublai Khan wrote:
Stuff like spending time and energy asking people why they think they are scummy. Especially with no (now 1) votes/pressure on them. Scummy people tend to worry more about how scummy they are.In post 66, UC Voyager wrote:In post 60, Kublai Khan wrote:UC Voyager is second scummiest.
Can you explain what is scummy about my posts?In post 61, Wisdom wrote:agreement
I also can't figure out a reason you would need more evidence of scumminess to move your move to BuJaber.
B. it is page fucking 3. why would i be voting on page three when RVS Is over? especially with only a post or two i find scummy!
B. I don't know. I'm voting you to find out more about your philosophy about mafia to determine the reason behind your actions and inactions. Why aren't you asking why we are voting on "page fucking 3" if it's a ridiculous thing to you?
C. Do you curse often or did I hit a nerve?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Scum have Daytalk. It's very likely they would have discussed what my role is and devised a strategy to deal with it.In post 92, UC Voyager wrote:Can someone explain the town intention here?
Since BuJaber hadn't given it a thought, it means he's very likely in the uninformed majority (aka town).Occasionally intellectually honest
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I assume scum would have checked what "Desperado" IC was.In post 97, Wisdom wrote:I dont follow
how does bu voting rat means he didnt give a thought about your role?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Eh. I could be wrong.In post 99, Wisdom wrote:yes, still don't get how's that related to buOccasionally intellectually honest
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Hmm? Me too.In post 112, UC Voyager wrote:it only works day one.
@everyone: Thoughts on mass claim?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Mod said we can't break the game via flavor claiming.In post 115, BuJaber wrote:Also the mod stated there are fake claims; I feel it could cause too much confusionOccasionally intellectually honest
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Appealing to the Mod is a weak counter-argument.In post 123, Wisdom wrote:im against a mass claim; the mod isn't an idiot and has probably accounted for it
I'm sure you know the common arguments for Day 1 Mass Claim. How are you arguing against those?Occasionally intellectually honest
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In all your time you've never seen a D1 mass claim benefit town? Really?In post 125, Wisdom wrote:i don't, and i find mass claim d1 stupid in any game
The most prominent pro-argument is that scum are locked into claims early on. It restricts their ability to make convincing claims both early on and allows town to uncover their thought process after a few cycles where their decision making makes no sense.Occasionally intellectually honest
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If you refuse to claim and can't come up with a better argument than "the plan is stupid" then you will die.In post 131, garaputo wrote:I think this plan is stupid and I am likely to refuse to claim on general principle.Occasionally intellectually honest
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I can be convinced to not go with the mass claim plan if you have a good argument. "It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.In post 134, garaputo wrote:
Get the votes and do it then. I'd rather play mafia than whatever this claim or no claim thing is.In post 132, Kublai Khan wrote:
If you refuse to claim and can't come up with a better argument than "the plan is stupid" then you will die.In post 131, garaputo wrote:I think this plan is stupid and I am likely to refuse to claim on general principle.
If you can convince everyone I'm scum because I don't want to go through with this bad plan, guess what, a game of actual mafia broke out!
You're halting the game by dodging/ignoring my questions. Convince me that mass claim is a bad idea.In post 135, Wisdom wrote:garaputo is right; all youve managed to do is halt the game and let scum hide in "lets claim" posts
Also, are you clearing garaputo? Why would scum be in the "lets claim" posts and not on the "lets not claim" side? Wouldn't scum likely be one on each side of this argument?Occasionally intellectually honest
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It's certainly not against the "spirit of the game". The spirit of the game is to play towards win condition. If mass claiming helps that, then not mass claiming goes against the spirit of the game.In post 137, Wisdom wrote:
ive played in like 150 games and none of them did itIn post 136, Kublai Khan wrote:"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.
the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.
I'm town and if we assume that UC Voyager is town, then two non-vanilla roles have been outed, giving scum beneficial targets. So, does your argument still hold up?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Also, this game is nightless, which means no night-kills. So if everything is on the table, we can 1) work out a plan and 2) trap scum into claims they may regret.
Convince me of a reason not to mass claim that don't include the words "stupid" or "bad". I'm not trying to steamroll the game. You feel strongly about your position so convince me I'm wrong.Occasionally intellectually honest
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I don't think it's likely. The mod specifically lists that they have been given flavor claims, not fake claims. That gives me the impression that they are on their own.In post 140, Alisaes French Maid wrote:Scum likely have some kind of anti claim.
Dude...In post 143, garaputo wrote:This logic is flawed.
1) From a neutral point of view, it's not clear why you or UCV are town, let alone that you are not vanilla.
I'd say that it's information their already have. A confirmed-town Innocent Child is already someone that scum will target for elimination. Our voice is our greatest weapon and scumm will silence the loudest voices first. We are all already targets, the surprise mass claim eliminates their ability to camouflage.In post 144, garaputo wrote:I said in post 118
What have you said that acknowledges or contradicts this?the claim will likely allow the scum to zero in on the right folks to kill.
Neither do scum. Isn't it to the scum's advantage to keep town blindly guessing and pointing fingers until we get to a Day X LyLo or MyLo situation?In post 145, Wisdom wrote:
This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right nowIn post 143, garaputo wrote:Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.
This could be a mostly vanilla game or a role-madness game. Neither Town nor Scum knows that at this point, so scum is at bigger risk claiming today then waiting until a few flips happen.
Was there a specific set of logistics that you would be open to? If so, what was it?In post 156, garaputo wrote:
I like to understand a plan before I react to it. I inquired as to logistics.In post 155, Radical Rat wrote:Then why did you act like you weren't?Occasionally intellectually honest
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This is bugging me. Did you also forget that UC Voyager is mod-confirmed to be non-vanilla as well?In post 147, garaputo wrote:
Derp on me for forgetting that Desperado IC part, but the lotic applies still to the collective form of "you" there.In post 146, Radical Rat wrote:
I mean. From a neutral point of view he's a mod confirmed desperado IC.In post 143, garaputo wrote:
This logic is flawed.In post 138, Kublai Khan wrote:
It's certainly not against the "spirit of the game". The spirit of the game is to play towards win condition. If mass claiming helps that, then not mass claiming goes against the spirit of the game.In post 137, Wisdom wrote:
ive played in like 150 games and none of them did itIn post 136, Kublai Khan wrote:"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.
the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.
I'm town and if we assume that UC Voyager is town, then two non-vanilla roles have been outed, giving scum beneficial targets. So, does your argument still hold up?
1) From a neutral point of view, it's not clear why you or UCV are town, let alone that you are not vanilla.Occasionally intellectually honest
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What's your read on Wisdom? Could there be any truth to his argument that "scum are hiding behind "Let's claim"?In post 158, BuJaber wrote:For what it's worth I think garaputo is town.Occasionally intellectually honest
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Okay. That quote doesn't support your argument.In post 164, garaputo wrote:Same argument. Unless you are scum, you have no idea what the scum know or don't. The mod has explicitly stated "Power Roles were decided by flavour, VTs were then randomised from a list of characters, the left over characters were then given to scum as fakeclaims,
it is impossible to break the game via flavour"
Once upon a time way back in the early days mods would design games around a theme where the good characters are town and the evil characters are scum. As a way to get the benefits of massclaiming but reduce the downsides, clever players suggest a mass flavour claim. So everyone would claim what character they had (keeping their role secret). Mods didn't care for that since it broke their games, so one way to stop that was to do what Not_Mafia did.
Massclaiming is a valid tactic, but the downside has to be acknowledged.
Okay, right. Succinctly put. But in the worse case scenario, scum still has more information than town does. So, that's moot.In your best case scenario, the town tell the truth, the scum lie, and pick bad lies. Even in that best case scenario the scum gain more correct information than the town does.
Here's the wrinkle: I am an Innocent Child, but I'm also a Day 1 Desperado. What that means is that I'm a Day 1 Dayvig. If I vig scum, then I survive and continue. If I vig town, then I die instead. I can only vig Day 1 and if I don't, then I also die along with the lynched (town or scum).
I've been selfish in wanting to mass claim because I think it gives me more information. I don't need any votes to pressure anyone to go along with the plan, but I think it's a waste to vig based on playstyle/philosophical differences. I wanted to debate the plan before claiming because I thought I could have more honest discussion, but both Wisdom and garaputo seem entrenched in a counter-position. Which could be either for philosophical differences or because they fear claiming badly as scum. garaputo seemed at least willing to engage, although not totally convincingly.
Alisaes French Maid stayed out of discussion, then diplomatically sat the fence. So that's pinging my scumdar as well but a lesser extant.
Radical Rat is coming off very town.
I'm very wary of UC Voyager's claim because it seems to be a check of sorts on my power. If someone gets voted to L-2, then UC Voyager could potentially speed-lynch town and kill me off as well. His claiming it unprompted is completely not-scummy through. So there's a possibility that he's actually town and it's a pitfall against competing aggressive town not co-operating with each other. Which pushed me towards the mass-claim plan.
Wisdom... well, he put up 3 terrible arguments against mass claiming ("stupid", "against spirit of the game", and "scum hide in 'let's claim' posts"). If deadline were tomorrow, then I'd be taking a shot at Wisdom unless he wants to abandon the low-verbiage shtick and explain himself.Occasionally intellectually honest
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Yeah... It's stuff like this that bugs me. Instead of pointing me towards scum so that one scum dies and we keep a conftown, you push a plan of keeping scum alive, killing a townie to die so you can continue posting useless two lines posts for another day.
"Great" plan. Way to out-shallow me.Occasionally intellectually honest
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That's really the only thing you have to say?In post 181, garaputo wrote:
This is about the worst possible reason to give scum more information.In post 177, Kublai Khan wrote:scum still has more information than town does. So, that's moot.Occasionally intellectually honest
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Well, I'm certainly less inspired to put effort into winning this game. Thanks, scum.In post 184, garaputo wrote:About that post, yes. The rest was noise.
He was a townread in the beginning. He's been dropping with every post he makes.In post 185, northsidegal wrote:
why are you assuming wisdom is town rather than scum wifoming you on the shot?In post 182, Kublai Khan wrote:Yeah... It's stuff like this that bugs me. Instead of pointing me towards scum so that one scum dies and we keep a conftown, you push a plan of keeping scum alive, killing a townie to die so you can continue posting useless two lines posts for another day.
"Great" plan. Way to out-shallow me.Occasionally intellectually honest
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This isn't a Kingmaker game.In post 188, Wisdom wrote:because youre shallow and think posting means town
If you were scum...In post 189, UC Voyager wrote:Why would I speedlynch?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Would it be a bad idea to vig you?In post 202, garaputo wrote:
The moderator has put certain restraints on the limits of how I can react to this post. Consider this solely about your proposed plan and not about you.In post 199, Kublai Khan wrote:Well, everyone is for a massclaim except Wisdom, garaputo, and Alisaes French Maid.
So our lynch pool is reduced to 3 people because I'm waving a gun.
You can't fix stupid.Occasionally intellectually honest
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You can't call me stupid if you can't be bothered to read noise.In post 204, garaputo wrote:
Depends, is your goal to kill town?In post 203, Kublai Khan wrote:
Would it be a bad idea to vig you?In post 202, garaputo wrote:
The moderator has put certain restraints on the limits of how I can react to this post. Consider this solely about your proposed plan and not about you.In post 199, Kublai Khan wrote:Well, everyone is for a massclaim except Wisdom, garaputo, and Alisaes French Maid.
So our lynch pool is reduced to 3 people because I'm waving a gun.
You can't fix stupid.Occasionally intellectually honest
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So, do you want to comment on any of it? I mean, I'm not sure how tongue-in-cheek stuff is helping. We need to come up with a Day 1 plan instead of dicking around.In post 206, garaputo wrote:
I wasn't calling you stupid, I was explicitly not doing that. I was calling the plan to lynch folks against the mass claim stupid.In post 205, Kublai Khan wrote:
You can't call me stupid if you can't be bothered to read noise.In post 204, garaputo wrote:
Depends, is your goal to kill town?In post 203, Kublai Khan wrote:
Would it be a bad idea to vig you?In post 202, garaputo wrote:
The moderator has put certain restraints on the limits of how I can react to this post. Consider this solely about your proposed plan and not about you.In post 199, Kublai Khan wrote:Well, everyone is for a massclaim except Wisdom, garaputo, and Alisaes French Maid.
So our lynch pool is reduced to 3 people because I'm waving a gun.
You can't fix stupid.
Also my response was meant a bit tongue-in-cheek in case that wasn't obvious.Occasionally intellectually honest
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Okay. I'm trying to work with you. But none of that was helpful.In post 208, garaputo wrote:I think my comment is clear, don't vig me.
I doubt there is wisdom in vigging wisdom.
If you weren't modfirmed your role would be precisely the sort of mechanism I think the scum would have.
Think beyond "how does this affect me personally" and think about how best to get town to win this game. I want to give you a hand in choosing who I vig, but in return you have to reveal your role. That's the deal.
You can choose not to and you'll be a potential vig victim. In which case (since you still didn't read my "noise"), you would still be alive and mod-confirmed town and I would be dead.Occasionally intellectually honest
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No deal.In post 210, garaputo wrote:I am willing to help you pick a target, but I'm not willing to reveal my role to you today.
Why are you putting off responding to it?I think you are mixing up "haven't responded to" and "haven't read" regarding that post.Occasionally intellectually honest
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You know what's better than a dead towny and you being a conftown?In post 216, Alisaes French Maid wrote:Either way we are left with 1 conf town.
It isn't a big deal to me tbh + being an IC would be nice.
A dead scum.
Your "shoot me!" bluff is scummy WIFOM. Being pro-mass claim would be town.Occasionally intellectually honest
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You know that mafia is a numbers game, right? Scum win when they outnumber town. How does someone, as town, immediately jump to a plan of "hey, let me get shot so Kublai dies and I can be conftown" and think it's a good plan? It's a net loss of 1 town.In post 219, Alisaes French Maid wrote:I mean I guess?
Just as scummy as when Wisdom offered the same plan. And both of you are anti-claiming. Hmm.Occasionally intellectually honest
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Okay. Let's break this down because I honestly don't know what you hang-up is.In post 221, garaputo wrote:
Not so much this.In post 218, Kublai Khan wrote:Being pro-mass claim would be town.
Let's review basic facts:
In an 8 player game, there's probably two scum. Could be three, but that's very unlikely.
Scum can daytalk and tell each other their role.
My role was mod-confirmed at the start of the game. Anyone with an ounce of desire to win the game, likely went to the mafia wiki and learned what a Desperado was if they didn't know already.
UC Voyager demonstrated his role unprompted.
So, if I assume UC Voyager is town (and I'm currently leaning that way because his claim was unprompted), then scum already know half of the roles in the game (4 out of 8). They know their power and they can assume relative town power and if they have any experience balancing games then they know how much relative power is left on the town side and can claim accordingly.
By the time we get to a LYLO situation, scum should have an excellent fakeclaim cooked up. Right now, then have a marginal one at best.
Since I have to ask you a direct question for you to comment instead of ignoring my posts as noise: @garaputo - Is any of the above incorrect?
Continuing...
Since I have the penalty that I die if I don't dayvig, that means our lynch is eliminated for today. In fact..
Unvote
Which means everyone can argue and make their cases and convince me to shoot a certain person. Or we can do a massclaim so that we can work out a plan together.
The only reasons I can think of not to massclaim today under these conditions is either because your role is mafia or because you're entertaining dreams of being a hero who survives an breaks important game info at the last minute to nail scum.
So, @garaputo - Are you a team player, a hero, scum, or.... something else?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Doesn't specify actually.In post 236, Radical Rat wrote:Khan, does you shooting someone end the day?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Analysis of Alisaes French Maid's play
Random(?) vote on garaputo
Early townread + defense of Radical Rat
Questioning northsidegal
Throws shade on UC Voyager
votes northsidegal
anti-mass claim
I dunno. This play sample really casts most suspicion on UC Voyager. A little scum distancing, but no vote. Plus I still feel like it's a scum counter-balance to my role. (Day 1 fight)
VOTE: UC Voyager
@UC Voyager: Walk me through your thought process behind your play. Why did you claim unprompted? Why did feel the need to clarify that it's Day 1 ability only? Why didn't you do both in the same post?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Well, the thing that bugs me about the day restriction is that it's unprovable. It might just be a lie to make it seem like his power is nerfed.In post 318, garaputo wrote:
I think you and I take the way UCV revealed the doublevote and day restriction in pretty opposite ways. I have a slight town read on UCV because of that, but I will review.In post 316, Kublai Khan wrote:@garaputo - What's your current read on UC Voyager?Occasionally intellectually honest
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I guess I'm figuring that they knew they had a Day 2 vig and a Day 1 vig existed, therefore they knew single-day powers were a re-occurring motif in this game.In post 327, garaputo wrote:
Whether or not it's true, it's not necessary to claim it *then*In post 326, Kublai Khan wrote:
Well, the thing that bugs me about the day restriction is that it's unprovable. It might just be a lie to make it seem like his power is nerfed.In post 318, garaputo wrote:
I think you and I take the way UCV revealed the doublevote and day restriction in pretty opposite ways. I have a slight town read on UCV because of that, but I will review.In post 316, Kublai Khan wrote:@garaputo - What's your current read on UC Voyager?
I'll grant that it's pure speculation plus the Alisaes French Maid non-vote is what's nagging at me. I'll give a hard look at your northsidegal case tomorrow.Occasionally intellectually honest
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In post 328, Not_Mafia wrote:@mod: Is this accurate? garaputo is voting UC Voyager and not northsidegal?Occasionally intellectually honest
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Check the sun flipIn post 371, BuJaber wrote:Maybe I misunderstood what you're trying to say but who said anything about day 2 day vig?
We had day 1 day vig (khan) and it is still day 1.Occasionally intellectually honest
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What I know about setup is that I had to publicly state my dayvig. Looking at Alisaes French Maid's role PM, she did not.
UC Voyager's double vote is accounted for by the mod (7 alive, 5 to lynch). Which means that we (as town) have to convince UC Voyager to go along with a lynch. If UC Voyager was scum, then it's really odd that we'd have to convince the last remaining scum to vote a certain way to get a lynch.
If UC Voyager is exactly what he says he is, then he is a VT tomorrow and we can deal with that later.
Right now, with the remaining time, I'd like to encourage a wagon on lurking Wisdom.Occasionally intellectually honest
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Just a reminder that Wisdom had the exact same reaction to my day vig claim that Alisaes French Maid had. And she turned scum.In post 178, Wisdom wrote:please shoot me quickly so i can conftown
Is UC Voyager is lying about being a Day 1 Double Voter, we can find out and hash it out on Day 2.
But Wisdom is scum.Occasionally intellectually honest
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The only reason Wisdom reacted so much to it was because I pushed him to do so. And I disagree that it was a town reaction. His arguments against were vague and generalized, which suggests that he's leaving himself ample room to not corner himself into a story should a mass claim actually happen.In post 384, northsidegal wrote:it's not that i think ucv is lying about being a day 1 doublevoter, it's that i think that makes him scum. now, i've certainly been burned in the past many times by being too adamantly against lurker / low-content lynches, but i feel like from wisdom's reaction to the massclaim idea he's town. beeboy went against it but not really in any sort of "attempt to convince town that this is a bad idea" way, but moreso in a "i'll state the obvious and take the position that seems more likely to be townread but without doing so with real conviction" way. compared to wisdom's reaction, it seems townie to me.
Also, compare his participation. At the beginning of the game, he was busy taking little digs at people. But after a scum turn he becomes immediately aloof and pops in only to prod dodge and continue a meaningless one person wagon. I realize that lethargy is NAI, but the fact that it starts immediately after a scum death is suspicious. It's like he felt his chances of winning diminish.Occasionally intellectually honest
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Yeah, I get what you're saying, but remember that Alisaes French Maid's actions didn't quite make sense either. A Day 2 dayvig should have been pro-massclaim because it would give her the best target to choose from if she was alive tomorrow.In post 391, northsidegal wrote:even if you think his arguments were vague, i'd say that his stance on it was pretty solid. for me, it's the fact that it was this thing that it really seems to me that he has genuine convictions on that got him to start posting that makes him town. like, it feels really genuine that he held the strong opinion that massclaims are bad and that we shouldn't do one. beeboy did what i would think a scum taking that position would do, make their position known but not really attempt to prevent a massclaim at all, given that it still benefits scum for it to happen. if wisdom with scum with beeboy and knew that they had the day-2 vig, i think don't think we would have seen the slight playstyle change that i think exists.
So either her partner was pro-massclaim and she was taking a divergent path. But it comes back to Wisdom's really bad post that "both scum are hiding on the 'pro-claim' side". It just strikes me as a super WIFOM comment to make. And the "shoot me so I'm conftown" idea is also super-WIFOM. When I add together all the red flag, Wisdom is the way to go.
Also, I do think that the UC Voyager situation is something we can punt to tomorrow. And we need a lynch before deadline.
Join the Wisdom wagon.Occasionally intellectually honest
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