Open 704: Switch (Game Over)


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:21 am

Post by Bins »

It's like you think I said:

"Stop what we're doing, town. We're going to pull ALL our resources to finding the elusive SK and even if you find someone suspicious, if they don't fit my SK definition then you're absolutely bonkers to think that we're gonna lynch 'em. Not only this but I'm gonna display my stupidity for the whole town to see. Wow."

Like seriously you must think I have half a brain.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:24 am

Post by Sauce »

Not_Mafia what do you think of Bins? Is she anything like in the game you modded?
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:45 am

Post by Almost50 »

VOTE: Bins

I have always been told SK-hunting is a Mafia-tell, but that's not just it. The reason I'm voting here is the game a specific mechanic that allows the SK to mess with the switch setting the Mafia choose. Eliminating the SK first give total control to Mafia and turns us all into VTs (read: Sitting Ducks).

SK maybe immune to Cop/Vig so they really don't care much about them and will hunt for Mafia as well. Alternatively. the SK could be immune to Mafia NK and thus will treat everyone alike because eventually they'd want to get rid of everyone. SK's hardly ever win anyway, but can effectively influence the outcome of the game, and RIGHT NOW they serve us better by messing up the Mafia switch control.

Personally I would rather lynch a Mafioso and have the SK/Vig shoot another before we lynch the SK. This way we will alwats have the chance of scum cross killng (except if the SK is Mafia immune, so that makes them a priority only after 2 Mafia are caught).

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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:48 am

Post by Almost50 »

@Bins: You probably didn't say it explicitly but you're acting like it. Did you forget about the switches? Are you treating this as a normal 9v3v1 setup? And if you did, why did you feel the need to type the last 2 lines of your #94 to begin with?

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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:04 am

Post by Bins »

In post 103, Almost50 wrote:@Bins: You probably didn't say it explicitly but you're acting like it. Did you forget about the switches? Are you treating this as a normal 9v3v1 setup? And if you did, why did you feel the need to type the last 2 lines of your #94 to begin with?
Am I confused on how the switches work, maybe? Can someone clarify on how the SKs switch functions.

I don't see why it's impossible that I'm town that wants the SK dead? Much more likely to be that then scum balantly calling a search party for the SK...

You say I'm not acting like it but my vote is currently on someone who I don't think is SK but rather just scummy. Same with my second preference in Max.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:05 am

Post by Bins »

I thought the SK gets 3 switches max in the game but it's becoming clear I'm wrong about this lol
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:09 am

Post by Bins »

In post 102, Almost50 wrote:Eliminating the SK first give total control to Mafia and turns us all into VTs (read: Sitting Ducks).
I had it in my head that SK knew the state of the switches and the Mafia didn't. The Mafia are actually unaware of the state of the switches and therefore, if the SK is even alive for one night, Mafia don't actually know the state of the switches.

I thought SK's power was pretty useless except to confuse Mafia on the first night or so.

I swear I read a previously ran version of this game to check but seems like I'm unclear.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:34 am

Post by Mathdino »

Well at least Bins is confirmed for not being SK.

@Bins:
Gonna be honest, I'm tuning out you defending yourself, because everyone is gonna say what it takes to not get themselves lynched. Help town by doing something else. Come up with more reads. I'll switch votes if I see a better lynch.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:38 am

Post by mutantdevle »

If the SK is our only way of switching the mafia PRs so that they don't work then surely we need the SK alive? Both town and the SK need the scum dead in order to win the game. Mafia obviously wins if they gain majority so the SK would want the scum dead first. So not only does the SK's switch abilities help us, but we also share the common objective of wanting to eliminate the mafia.

The way I see it, the SK is an ally of town that will eventually betray us. If the SK was ever at L-1 and roleclaimed, then I think we should keep them alive. If that turns out to be a mafia fake claiming then the SK will know and just kill them at night. If a townie ever fakeclaims SK just to keep themselves alive, then they are an anti-town piece of shit. And then obviously if we do get a SK role claim, we can just lynch them when the mafia is eliminated.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:42 am

Post by Elmo TeH AzN »

In post 108, mutantdevle wrote:If the SK is our only way of switching the mafia PRs so that they don't work then surely we need the SK alive? Both town and the SK need the scum dead in order to win the game. Mafia obviously wins if they gain majority so the SK would want the scum dead first. So not only does the SK's switch abilities help us, but we also share the common objective of wanting to eliminate the mafia.

The way I see it, the SK is an ally of town that will eventually betray us. If the SK was ever at L-1 and roleclaimed, then I think we should keep them alive. If that turns out to be a mafia fake claiming then the SK will know and just kill them at night. If a townie ever fakeclaims SK just to keep themselves alive, then they are an anti-town piece of shit. And then obviously if we do get a SK role claim, we can just lynch them when the mafia is eliminated.
.....

I really cant believe this.

VOTE: Mutantdevle
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:44 am

Post by Almost50 »

Coming from you I could probably accept you were confused, but I'd need more to move my vote off you.

So. you do understand how it works, now. Right? The switches are on by default, which means all PRs are active. The Mafia have 3 members each of which can switch off one specific PR (so the Doctor Switch is now a mere goon since the Doctor is already dead). the SK can choose to reverse any and all switches, but they don't know what the switch status is since the Maia could either turn them off or leave them on. THAT is the trick. Mafia will have to guess what switch(es) the SK will reverse and the SK will have to guess which switch(es) they turned off and which they left on. That's what causes both partied to be uncertain.

Lynching the SK first = both Cop & Vig will be switched off and the Mafia will know it to be the case, so there's no chance the Cop would return a guilty nor the Vig shooting anyone. Now if we lynch the Cop switch (say) that would mean the SK can reverse the swirtch (i.e. turn it off, since Mafia can't) so the Mafia's loss is the SK's gain. This is why the SK must hunt for the Mafia first. Once the Cop/Vig switches are dead the SK will turn against the Town bc the Doctor switch doesn't matter anymore... but ONLY THEN.

Alternatively, let's say the Cop/Vig were to be NK'd. Their respective switch becomes useless (nothing to turn on/off), but still the Mafia will want to kill the SK, and the SK will want to eliminate them so as not be shot by them (unless they opted to be Mafia-Immune in which case Mafia can still know who the SK is if they shoot them and they don't die since the Doctor is already dead). So the SK will srill want to shoot Mafia over Town in this case.

Tl;dr: The SK is currently on our side if they know what they're doing. Flipping the Town PRs doesn't change that. Only if Mafia is flipped can the SK start thinking about working with the ones still alive against the Town.

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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:49 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 109, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:.....

I really cant believe this.

VOTE: Mutantdevle
I know you can do better than this, lol.

Do you think mutant is SK? If so, fair I guess, but not really our priority.

Give me more reads.

PEdit: This theory discussion is going nowhere. Focus on scum motivation, not on ego-defending your own logic.
I'm reminded of my only scumgame, in which I filled up 2 pages with my scumpartner screaming at each other over setup spec.
Point is this is all irrelevant unless someone literally claims mafia or SK. Game's fairly inactive so cluttering the thread up with stats is anti-town.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:49 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 109, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:
In post 108, mutantdevle wrote:If the SK is our only way of switching the mafia PRs so that they don't work then surely we need the SK alive? Both town and the SK need the scum dead in order to win the game. Mafia obviously wins if they gain majority so the SK would want the scum dead first. So not only does the SK's switch abilities help us, but we also share the common objective of wanting to eliminate the mafia.

The way I see it, the SK is an ally of town that will eventually betray us. If the SK was ever at L-1 and roleclaimed, then I think we should keep them alive. If that turns out to be a mafia fake claiming then the SK will know and just kill them at night. If a townie ever fakeclaims SK just to keep themselves alive, then they are an anti-town piece of shit. And then obviously if we do get a SK role claim, we can just lynch them when the mafia is eliminated.
.....

I really cant believe this.

VOTE: Mutantdevle
What can't you believe? It is true. The SK is allied with the Town until further notice regardless of which option they picked to be immune to. It's basic SK play.

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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:49 am

Post by Bins »

No, I definitely see why SK is more important to keep alive now. I still think SK should be lynched and believe town should want them lynched, but I do see their importance to town if we still have our PRs and if they can land a kill onto Mafia.

This still [which is what I've been saying the whole time] doesn't affect my reads because none of my reads were strictly for the SK. My initial comment was just to address that the lurkers probably contain the SK and we should look out for that. I thought the kill that SK added was much more pressing but yeah I didn't get it.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:51 am

Post by Bins »

In post 108, mutantdevle wrote:If the SK is our only way of switching the mafia PRs so that they don't work then surely we need the SK alive? Both town and the SK need the scum dead in order to win the game. Mafia obviously wins if they gain majority so the SK would want the scum dead first. So not only does the SK's switch abilities help us, but we also share the common objective of wanting to eliminate the mafia.

The way I see it, the SK is an ally of town that will eventually betray us. If the SK was ever at L-1 and roleclaimed, then I think we should keep them alive. If that turns out to be a mafia fake claiming then the SK will know and just kill them at night. If a townie ever fakeclaims SK just to keep themselves alive, then they are an anti-town piece of shit. And then obviously if we do get a SK role claim, we can just lynch them when the mafia is eliminated.
This sketches me out a little bit because it seems to imply that you feel SK definitely picked Vig/Cop immunity and not Mafia NK immunity. If they didn't pick Vig/Cop immunity, they would be working their hardest to switch the stuff off as well and wouldn't fuck with the Mafia's switches.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:53 am

Post by Mathdino »

Just another PSA to ignore what people say in response to being scumread because that's useless to reading them. There's a mastin article on this but idc enough to find it.

Do something else. I specifically want
reads on Raya, Maxous, and Sauce
.

PEdit: Yeah I could definitely see mutant being SK but I don't really care.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:56 am

Post by Bins »

I don't see why you're trying to shut down me trying to become less confused. It's being unnecessarily difficult.

I have no issue with Sauce and Raya.
I have given my read on Maxous several times.

Sauce asking Not_Mafia for his read on me was weird but I'll actually accept it as town.
I liked Raya's read on Elmo and am just slightly confused why she switched off fully.

Not trying to force reads, they're mostly null.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:58 am

Post by Bins »

In post 1, Equinox wrote:The serial killer may counteract up to three of the mafia's switches.
I'm still confused because it hasn't been fully clarified but does this mean three in total or three a night???
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:59 am

Post by Bins »

I'm liking Almost for town, lmfao. The jab at me was pretty confirming of that.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:59 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 1, Equinox wrote:Each Night, you may choose one person to kill, and you may reverse up to three of the mafia's switches. This will trigger the opposite outcome of how the mafia left a switch (e.g., if the mafia left a switch OFF, then you will switch it ON and thereby activate that town role). On Night 0, you must choose one of two available immunities: immunity from Night kills by the mafia, or immunity from cop investigations and Night kills by the town vigilante.
3 a night, otherwise it would be 3-shot Switch SK.

I'm trying to get out of this setup-centred back-and-forth because it's not going to be an easy discussion to break into for everyone else.

PEdit: I agree, Almost50 is a top townread.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:00 am

Post by Almost50 »

I'll be more direct and explicit here: The reason I detailed how the SK should play is I don't know some of you, and thus don't know how experienced they are. A newbie SK should be made aware that their best shot is to work WITH the Town for now. We need the SK and they need us (for the time being). If they mess up their pay it's on them, granted, but it could also backfire on the Town. I will stop arguing this point any further, but I felt it had to be made clear.

P-edit: Fine. We can let the Mafia hunt for the SK, the SK hunt for them, while we hunt for both. Agreed? Agreed. :)

P-edit2: Yes, the SK may want the switches off too. THAT is the trick though. Did Mafia opt to switch them off or eave them on? The SK needs to guess correctly there in order to get the switches to the settings most suitable to their own status. Mafia will want to trick the SK as much as the SK would want to outsmart the Mafia.

As far as reads I don't see what Scum motive is behind mutant's talk. I mean, yeah.. theoretically this could be the SK seeking refuge in Town's arms, but I don't really fee it. In fact, I'd be a hypocrite if I did, because I'm thinking the exact same way.

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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:03 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 117, Bins wrote:
In post 1, Equinox wrote:The serial killer may counteract up to three of the mafia's switches.
I'm still confused because it hasn't been fully clarified but does this mean three in total or three a night???
Every night. Check the setup wiki.

=
Each night
, the town powerroles are active pending a player "switching" them off.
= The Mafia Cop Switch may switch off the Cop for example, with each Mafia player controlling a switch over a town PR.
= However, the SK has the ability to reverse any switches' state. For example, if the Mafia Doc Switch, leaves the Doctor active, the SK choosing to reverse the Doc's switch will cause it to be inactive.
= The Serial Killer may reverse all three, none of the switches or any combination in between.

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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:06 am

Post by Bins »

OK I KNOW YOU WANT TO STOP SETUP TALK BUT I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE

I'd ask the Mod but I'd feel I'd get a faster response here.
In post 121, Almost50 wrote:Each night, the town powerroles are active pending a player "switching" them off.
Does this mean the PRs are switched on every night, regardless of what they were before?

I had it totally backward, I thought the Mafia would be blind switching and therefore the switch ability, due to the SK, would be pretty meaningless and random and WIFOMy after Night One.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:08 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 118, Bins wrote:I'm liking Almost for town, lmfao. The jab at me was pretty confirming of that.
I wish I could say the same about you, but -at least- I'm confident you're not the SK. If we by chance flip all 3 Mafia players and you're still alive you are a confirmed Townie to me (and this should be noted by each and every Townie for later reference).

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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:30 am

Post by mutantdevle »

In post 109, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:I really cant believe this.
I don't see why. Not only is my statement logical but surely you out of everyone here knows that this is the type of statement I am inclined to make?
In post 114, Bins wrote:This sketches me out a little bit because it seems to imply that you feel SK definitely picked Vig/Cop immunity and not Mafia NK immunity. If they didn't pick Vig/Cop immunity, they would be working their hardest to switch the stuff off as well and wouldn't fuck with the Mafia's switches.
What the SK has picked was not of concern to me when I wrote that statement. Regardless of what the SK picked, the fundamental fact is that they are required to kill the other scum before us in order to win.


Also, if the SK were ever at the point of no return and faced with an angry lynch mob then they'd be faced with a choice. Either they could roleclaim as the SK and side with town to help them win and defeat the mafia or they could let their lynch go through meaning they no longer have to play which helps the mafia more than it does us. I don't see why any SK would want to roleclaim but if they were kind enough to do so then I say let 'em live. I guess it just depends on how much their scum reads piss them off.
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