Mini Normal 1963 - List Mod Mafia Game Over

[wavemode]

Hey guys. I'm town this game.

VOTE: TwoInAMillion

[wavemode]

List Mod Mafia

What boring flavor

[wavemode]

Well I'm only counting the first two I'm Town posts as truthful sooo

[wavemode]

Third is probably a lie

VOTE: iDanyboy

[wavemode]

At least 1 scum between Dany/Wicked

[wavemode]

"at this point"? Is it ever too early to scumhunt?

[wavemode]

VOTE: Lalendra

[wavemode]

VOTE: WickedestJr

[wavemode]

Flubber and Wossi both seeming like lynchbait at this point

[wavemode]

Also, as I said, 1st and 2nd to claim town are probably town

[wavemode]

With flubber I'd actually be surprised if he *hadn't* gone against the grain page 1. He's not a player who just goes with the flow

[wavemode]

Yawn

Wil vote the first person that votes me for not voting

Rather than participating in RVS, this is how Flubber started Open 694

So someone explain to me the scum motivation for him doing the exact same thing here, going against the grain and drawing attention to himself

Or else let's nuke this wagon and actually vote someone scummy

[wavemode]

Unvote. Vote: Wossi

(L-2)

I found these two comments particularly bothersome:

You are what you say you are, if you say you're scum you're scum. I dont really understand how that wasnt clear....

This comment doesn't sound like someone actually interested in figuring things out.

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

So skitter is scum but you would prefer to vote Flubber, who you acknowledge might be lying-town? Why is that?

Also, are you an alt? You sound slightly familiar.

This isn't scumhunting, this is hunting for excuses to park a vote on an already forming wagon

First is incredibly reachy and the quote is taken out of context

Second is similarly reading too deep and drawing a conclusion from nothing

VOTE: WickedestJr

[wavemode]

We'll see how it goes

[wavemode]

@wave:

What does the following line mean to you?

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

I think it's self-explanatory?

Is there something about it you find confusing?

[wavemode]

Look I know it's not as strong as your "he was the second person to claim town" reasoning

I townread Wossi on meta

Wossi demonstrated an unusual amount of confidence in his skitter scum read on page two

...Where? And what is an "unusual amount of confidence" anyway? Pointing out something suspicious and placing a vote?

his behavior doesn't make sense if that confidence is genuine

Right I forgot about that new rule where you're only allowed to scumread one person at a time

[wavemode]

You know I want to give a sarcastic response to all of this but. All of these points are incredibly deeply unconvincing. Saying "I townread him on meta" with zero additional context is about the least useful sentence that can be said in a game of mafia. And you're saying it in response to wicked's point that your other reasoning wasn't strong, as though "I townread him on meta" is a strong point. Like. no. If you think you have good reasons for townreading Wossi, explain them.

I can't talk about ongoing games

[wavemode]

* he exhibits strong feelings about 'claiming scum' = 'scum' (a position that I think is unfounded), and hops on Flubber, but only after HEM and Sephiroth start a thing there

* I point out this is odd and ask why he had a delayed reaction to something he apparently feels strongly about

*he responds by saying that he was distracted by having been excited by voting scum (me) in RVS

Maybe I'm just slow but I see literally nothing AI here

Also, wasn't this over the course of, what, a few hours? It'd be one thing if he called Flubber scummy in October and voted him in December, but your definition of delayed reaction is a bit too stringent for real life. Not everything happens all at once in forum mafia

This case is the actual definition of reachy, btw. But it's the early game, most cases are bound to be reachy. Reachiness alone does not a scum make, as I explain farther down ⬇ You're focusing too much on the reachiness aspect and ignoring when I said he's parking his vote on an already forming wagon

, but fails to explain how or why I'm scummy

This is false btw. If you don't believe his reasons (he thought you were defensive and didn't like you starting a wagon) is one thing but to say he has no explanation is untrue

I fail to understand why this reasoning is a reachy explanation for a vote at thus point in the game, so I don't understand why you dislike wicked's vote. I can understand the argument that it's derivative, because I made the point several pages before he did, but I don't think it can be classified as 'reachy.

I partitioned the game. Most people are on two big wagons, and a few are elsewhere. Just as a matter of course, there is probably scum avoiding the wagons - I'm guessing Lalendra. Then there's people like Wicked, who didn't start the wagon but have decided to join it for one reason or another. There's likely scum in there as well. Now WickedJr, who said absolutely nothing to or about Wossi in the very early game, then was suddenly Mr. "hey i think this Wossi guy is horrible and I believe these other four people who coincidentally are already voting him are astute mafia players whom I agree with wholeheartedly. Let me draw up some reasons Wossi is a scumlord and slap my vote there too" is the worst among them in my view. (aka Mr. I'm going to do nothing for a long time then vote Wossi 90 minutes after Nexus posts a VC showing him to be at L-3. Was the vote based on Wossi's play? Or opportunism?)

This is obviously operating under the assumption that Wossi is town, which currently I am for a wide variety of reasons - some gut, some logical, some meta, and not the least of which is the speed of the growth of his wagon.

[wavemode]

According to Wossi, claiming scum means that Flubber is scum. I think if he actually believed this, he would have mentioned it and pushed it during the first possible oppurtunity.

This is not necessarily true. As I said, this game is in the real world and the players are human. That he didn't jump on something the minute it was posted is not AI for me. And even if we consider it a bit sus, in the grand scheme of things does not make his vote any worse than the many others on the Flubber wagon.

I'm saying that his stated reasons are bad in that they don't actually explain a scumlean.

I can definitely see Wossi scumreading you for those reasons.

What makes Wicked's vote worse than Taco's? Tacos also said nothing to or about Flubber before his L-2 on the Flubber wagon, beyond asking Sephiroth to switch his vote from Flubber to HEM.

...all the reasons I've already given? It's not just that one thing

Bolded never happened. He didn't say that anywhere.

He said it right here:

Vote: Wossi

"I agree that Wossi is scum and support this wagon"

[wavemode]

What are your thoughts on tiam?

As in most games, I would happily lynch tiam, out of principle

As for whether he is scum or not, I have no idea

[wavemode]

1, Why do you not apply the same logic to Wossi? His done the same thing but you called it reaching.

idk if I'm not understanding what you're saying or you're stretching what I said, but as far as I can tell Wossi did no such thing as I described

2, What logical reasons do you have to think that lead to Wossi being town?

All the things I've been describing? I don't see the scum motivation in Wossi's posts thus far.

3, The speed of a wagon has nothing to do with alignment, scum can get to L-2/1 just as easily as town can.

Just by virtue of random chance this isn't true

And it goes even beyond that. All the nonsense Wossi is accused of, scum tend to specifically try to avoid doing, especially in the very early game... to avoid this exact situation he is in now

[wavemode]

This is exactly what Wossi did.

No it isn't. Where is the VC. What are you talking about

You don't see scum motivation in calling skitter out but not calling it scummy so he can fence sit? Calling skitter defensive when he follows up on his comment? Call skitter scum and not explain why he thinks so when asked? Jumping onto a wagon only after two other players had voted? Not explaining why he didn't comment on it the first time?

Nope, not necessarily. You can disagree with me if you want but I think town do all of those things all the time, especially on page 2 of the game.

How? If it's random chance his more likely to get voted by town then scum.

I don't know how this refutes my point

You're saying Wossi wouldn't do something scummy because scum avoid being scummy?

I'd invite you to point to exactly where I said this or where you're getting this. You literally said, scum and town are just as likely to be put at L-1. All I said was, no, town are technically more likely, all things being random, when scum are trying to blend in. So what I pointed out before about wagon speed is a valid consideration, even if, in and of itself, it is not definitive proof of anything.

I feel like in general you have this habit of pointing to one thing and completely ignoring context. Like, for future reference, the next time you have a question for me along the lines of "So you think X just because Y" the answer is NO. I think X because of the ENTIRE, COMBINED CONTEXT of Y, Z, H, Q, and Theta, all occurring together within the same situation at the same time. Y just happens to be one particular aspect of it.

[wavemode]

Not entirely sure yet what to make of all of this from wavemode. His honing in on wicked's vote is interesting, and I can see the line of reasoning, but don't agree that it's especially strong. His stated reasons for Wossi being town are all garbage. There are two new ones: first is the speed of the wagon, and as others have mentioned wagon speed is not useful. In particular it is meaningless when taken out of the context of the actual specific votes on the wagon for purposes of trying to determine the alignment of the person being wagoned. The only reason to think that a wagon on scum would grow more slowly is because scum would be less likely to join it, but that's flawed both because scum do sometimes vote each other even early and because it's entirely possible to have a wagon on scum composed entirely of town. And if the wagon is all town, then the speed at which it forms is basically meaningless. I am also curious what wavemode means by "random chance" meaning wagons on town are likely to form more quickly.

Second is this:

All the nonsense Wossi is accused of, scum tend to specifically try to avoid doing, especially in the very early game... to avoid this exact situation he is in now

which is just like the most basic kind of too scummy to be scum argument. I can actually see this line coming very easily from wavemode-town who is confbiasing himself on wossi and just viewing everything he's saying in the light of him being town. But saying "scum try to avoid doing the things he's been accused of" without getting into the specifics of any of the actual substantive points that have been made against Wossi is not a rebuttal. Some of the points that have been made against Wossi are not generic points like wavemode is making them out to be (for instance, my 2nd point in 73).

I also quite dislike that Wossi's rate of posting started out solid and has steadily fallen as his wagon has gained steam. I feel like he's scum trying to lurk through the worst of the wagon and hoping wavemode's arguments will disperse it. Of course this may just be real life but he posted 9 times in the first 24 hours, then got the 4th and 5th votes on his wagon, made one post that did not address anything related to his wagon which was over a day ago, and hasn't posted since.

Any given wagon is more likely to be on Town than Scum, just given random chance. Is that inaccurate? Wagon speed proves nothing - not sure why anyone is suggesting I think it does, it absolutely does not - but it also is not irrelevant. So I felt it worthy to mention, at least.

Like your last paragraph about Wossi activity. Completely valid points, all. But they prove nothing in and of themselves - as you say yourself, it could just be real life. But you are still considering it in your analysis, within the context of all the other information. I'm doing the exact same thing.

As I said, I have meta to go on but I can't talk about ongoing games. I'm trying to lay this out in the best way I can using in-game evidence. You disagree with my points, fine. I was asked to explain my townread of Wossi further and I have, ad nauseum. I don't like ignoring it when people ask me direct questions, even though I'm not the best at getting out exactly what my thought process is.

[wavemode]

All I said was, no, town are technically more likely, all things being random, when scum are trying to blend in. So what I pointed out before about wagon speed is a valid consideration, even if, in and of itself, it is not definitive proof of anything.

What?

Okay. If I'm interpreting this correctly, why should we lynch at all? Any given wagon that reaches l-1 at ANY speed is more likely to be on town than on scum. How do you draw a correlation between specifically *wagon speed* and how likely the wagon is to be on town?

As I said above, wagon speed proves nothing in and of itself and I never said it did. I just felt it worth mentioning within the context of everything else, that I didn't like how quickly the wagon formed.

[wavemode]

When I first played with wavemode, I dismissed them as stupid town. They were scum.

You're thinking of someone else then. Not only was I town, I had 2/3 of the scumteam pegged on Day 1. Go reread F&E

[wavemode]

If it makes you feel any better, I disagree with the majority of your arguments

[wavemode]

I 100% retract my townread of Flubbernugget

[wavemode]

Wavemode's misrepresentation of skitter's scum read on wosi as a function of time as opposed to events is extremely dishonest.

I'd ask you to point to what you mean here... but in truth it's just absurd at face value so what is the point. I already know this never happened because I've actually been reading the game...

Hard reminder that tells based on a timespan are ABSOLUTE FUCKING SHITTY ASS GARBAGE AND IF YOU'RE USING THEM YOU SHOULD FEEL REALLY FUCKING BAD ABOUT YOURSELF.

There are a couple of interactions between wavemode and skitter that I didn't bother to read. It is probably safe to assume they're rehashing their points back and forth.

Sephiroph, what post are you arguing with tacos about? It's probably one of the early ones.

There's a lot of tunneling in this thread atm, and I don't think it's particularly useful. The most substantial reads atm are still from before page 5ish.

Mostly just pointless complaints with zero contribution. Do you have anything to offer beyond "Shame On You, Town"?

[wavemode]

VOTE: Lalendra

[wavemode]

Just did a complete reread of the game. Scummest so far is wave's 'meta' tr of wossi.

Just to be clear, you think I'm lying? Or you think meta is not a sufficient reason to townread someone

[wavemode]

I thought you were done going round in circles

[wavemode]

wossi/seph/wave/skitter/serg towny

I would vote lalendra, tiam, wicked, possibly implosion

[wavemode]

My 66% winning percentatge says otherwise.

Statements like this are why I love you and also hate you TIAM

[wavemode]

Chip are you avoiding my question

[wavemode]

[wavemode]

Chip are you avoiding my question

I don't like how this is posted after Mulch and I voted for Chip.

? What does one have to do with the other

[wavemode]

Serg, you're a meme

[wavemode]

im a meme?

Your shade there makes no sense from a town perspective. Do you think Chip is scummy or not? If you do then you should be all in favor of me pointing out that Chip dodged the question I asked him. If not then why are you voting him?

Like, even if I saw a Chip wagon forming and decided to ask that question to spur the wagon on (that's not what happened but let's just assume hypothetically it did)... what would be wrong with that? It's good to engage the person, understand their motivations, and properly determine whether I want to join the wagon or not.

You pointing out my pressure on Chip and calling it "off" makes me feel like your Chip vote is more strategic than genuine...

[wavemode]

What I said or what he said

[wavemode]

What I said or what he said

what you said

...how?

[wavemode]

Wasn't avoiding, just forgot. At that point wossi hadn't been past day 2 in a game here, so meta read on him is bs.

So you think I'm lying. K

[wavemode]

That's why i voted you, duh. Either you're lying or you are bizarrely optimistic about the worth of meta based on such thin data, and i don't think you're bad enough for the later, esp now 1950 has concluded. Which reminds me, i should go reread you in that game.

You calling me bad is mildly amusing but I'll let that go. I think you're town.

My Wossi read is genuine and it's based on more than just meta, as I've already explained repeatedly - so then what is my scum motivation for making up meta rather than just using in-game reasons (or, hell, no reasons. I would just say it was gut) to townread him?

Furthermore, Wossi himself could tell you if it were a lie, and I'd be running a risk coming into this game with that if it were B.S.

And Mulch also referenced the same meta but also cannot talk about it:

I'm 15-1 in normal scum games

So explain where your meta on me comes from

I feel as if this would be breaking site rules

Now you're looking at a 3-person conspiracy if my meta is made up. Maybe simpler explanation is, I was just plain telling the truth?

[wavemode]

Also, VOTE: Sergtacos

This flips scum or my name isn't Johnny Appleseed

[wavemode]

To be fair I don't necessarily think Mulch and Serg are partners but I'm about 75% sure mulch is scum and Serg is literally just trolling. But I don't think its fair to completely dismiss the possibility given how easily Mulch abandoned his push on Serg...

Seph how does this read to you:

VOTE: Chipbutty

Chip are you avoiding my question

I don't like how this is posted after Mulch and I voted for Chip.

The timing feels off to me. It feels forced. It's like you see us voting for him then you decided to say that.

Because to me it looks a lot like scum who knows that Chip is town and is trying to show reluctance to the wagon. Why would town serg consider me pressuring chip at that point to be a bad thing?

[wavemode]

but he literally could never explain *why* he was town based on meta or anything in game

This is the second time in the same game you are taking someone who's explained plenty, but you simply disagree with the explanations, and then turn around and say they have no explanation

You either need a more open mind or better precision of language. Probably both

[wavemode]

Even in context, she's saying I'm doing the same thing when I'm clearly and demonstrably not

[wavemode]

Effort? I snip when I quote, sue me. It takes two clicks and it makes things look cleaner

Also, incriminating? Where exactly did I say skitter was scummy?

I'm just trying to provide clarity where skitter is muddying the water with untrue statements

[wavemode]

POST 666

[wavemode]

Can we lynch sergtacos

[wavemode]

As plenty of people have already pointed out, serg is putting in more effort to seem town in this game than he usually does as town. In light of Mulch's arguments I'm more critical of his behavior. The point I highlighted in 637 is significant imo.

This was a valid observation and matched my perception:

Its almost like Serg is trying to be more erratic after multiple people said town!serg is more erratic, especially this L-1 on-and-off-again little stunt

You say he is just trolling but that's not actually what he's doing, a significant number of his posts make serious arguments and try to reference meta even. So there's a scummy kind of disconnect, I think, when he tries to make serious arguments and throw shade in half his posts, especially more in the early game, but then diverts back to trolling when anyone looks at him sideways.

[wavemode]

I thought a normal would only have two factions?

False

Wave, what's your opinion on Mulch?

Null

[wavemode]

Mulch is very probably scum who has accepted the lynch. Someone please just threaten a hammer so that we can see him probably refuse to claim so we can get on with it. I understand townreading his early play from certain angles but I don't understand how you can still townread him after the marked shift in his play in the past few pages.

2 days left until deadline.

oh good its time to hammer mulch now

Intent to hammer today.

VOTE: Mulch

Dany's hammer certainly merits some scrutiny. In particular: Dany, when you made your hammer, did you realize the sort of overt scumminess of it, particularly the tone of naked hammering Mulch 20 minutes after he called you scum? Did you realize what you were doing and just didn't care? I'm sort of confused by 789 because I feel like it's obvious what serg is getting at (although of course he can correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not entirely sure what to make of the vote.

implosion correct me if I'm wrong but is this not a pretty open and shut case? I understand investigating the wagon but I guess I'm not understanding where your head is at with respect to the hammer itself, and why you consider it "overtly scummy"?

In addition, Mulch had already claimed VT, so I also don't understand the meaning of "naked hammer". Should he have said "Sorry" or "I now sentence thee to death" first?

[wavemode]

Also, this is the second time town!Mulch has replaced into a Mini I was in and got insta-lynched. He should work on that

[wavemode]

?

VOTE: Sergtacos

[wavemode]

VOTE: Lalendra

[wavemode]

POST 888

[wavemode]

I could go TIAM as well. I really want Serg

[wavemode]

VOTE: tiam

Serg is scum. Seph is scum.

This is likely mylo. If anyone has any useful results they might as well claim...

[wavemode]

Didn't mean to quote that

[wavemode]

Your question is sort of loaded and makes a lot of assumptions and I'm on my phone so I'm just gonna sidestep that and say in general that A. I've thought Lal was scummy since early game, and B. I didn't think we'd have a hammer without a claim.

[wavemode]

dont think there is a serial killer. i mean isnt that in big games?

Wossi - Town FBI Agent - Killed Night 1

[wavemode]

Finds serial killers

[wavemode]

Sergtacos in your opinion are you good at Mafia

[wavemode]

Massclaim is probably a good idea.

[wavemode]

I can't remember seeing any insight into the way flubber or wave have been thinking about the game for a while now. Granted there was a quickhammer yesterday but the day wasn't that short. wave has been sort of hanging around the fringes of discourse for a while now. His reasoning for serg is pretty reasonable though. 707 was a pretty good post but since then basically all of his posts have been barely really engaging with the game and have mostly been either questioning very offhanded things. It's a bit odd that he made post 810 and then never followed up with anything pertaining to it, which just makes that post look like an attempt to look like he's putting in effort. I don't like the question in 933 in a similar vein, though we'll see if he actually has anything he specifically wants to learn from it, but it just looks like a "look at me i'm doing things" kind of question and I can't really imagine what useful information you get out of the answer.

I mean, I'm sort of just reading from this that my content is good and my thought process is transparent, which are true and good observations.

Like, I guess I'm not seeing what is AI about the perceived negatives you've written above, or maybe I'm misunderstanding the motivation of this post. But as far as I can see it's mostly compliments then some minor activity related observations?

[wavemode]

Mylo is as good a time as any

[wavemode]

It "feels" that way but none of it's true...

[wavemode]

"since day 1" is literally just day 2. I'm reading my day 2 ISO and not really understanding how you're gathering your observations from it. Where am I not committing? Where am I not making my thoughts known? Why is the onus on me to insert myself into inane day 2 arguments? Was I inserting myself into other people's arguments on day 1? (spoiler: no.) And what questions have I asked that were meaningless? And where am I commenting on irrelevant things?

[wavemode]

I've got a nagging suspicion we're looking at a serg/seph/chip team

[wavemode]

im a meme?

Your shade there makes no sense from a town perspective. Do you think Chip is scummy or not? If you do then you should be all in favor of me pointing out that Chip dodged the question I asked him. If not then why are you voting him?

Like, even if I saw a Chip wagon forming and decided to ask that question to spur the wagon on (that's not what happened but let's just assume hypothetically it did)... what would be wrong with that? It's good to engage the person, understand their motivations, and properly determine whether I want to join the wagon or not.

You pointing out my pressure on Chip and calling it "off" makes me feel like your Chip vote is more strategic than genuine...

To be fair I don't necessarily think Mulch and Serg are partners but I'm about 75% sure mulch is scum and Serg is literally just trolling. But I don't think its fair to completely dismiss the possibility given how easily Mulch abandoned his push on Serg...

Seph how does this read to you:

VOTE: Chipbutty

Chip are you avoiding my question

I don't like how this is posted after Mulch and I voted for Chip.

The timing feels off to me. It feels forced. It's like you see us voting for him then you decided to say that.

Because to me it looks a lot like scum who knows that Chip is town and is trying to show reluctance to the wagon. Why would town serg consider me pressuring chip at that point to be a bad thing?

As plenty of people have already pointed out, serg is putting in more effort to seem town in this game than he usually does as town. In light of Mulch's arguments I'm more critical of his behavior. The point I highlighted in 637 is significant imo.

This was a valid observation and matched my perception:

Its almost like Serg is trying to be more erratic after multiple people said town!serg is more erratic, especially this L-1 on-and-off-again little stunt

You say he is just trolling but that's not actually what he's doing, a significant number of his posts make serious arguments and try to reference meta even. So there's a scummy kind of disconnect, I think, when he tries to make serious arguments and throw shade in half his posts, especially more in the early game, but then diverts back to trolling when anyone looks at him sideways.

[wavemode]

At least one scum must be in the one-on, one-off group, which is
[Chip, skitter, Flubber, wave, Taco, 2IAM]

Wow way to narrow it down

You've basically solved the game

[wavemode]

There's no hard evidence on me

HA HA HA HA

[wavemode]

That said, I am leaning more tiam town and seph scum at this point. The instant TIAM push off the back of the Lalendra Lynch is a strategy to end this game immediately

[wavemode]

I will have more to say when I'm not on my phone but I think the instant willingness to put tiam at L-3 is a scummy sort of impatience. Town would be more wary of our precarious mylo situation

[wavemode]

Serg and Chip are the best bets for SK. Dark horse candidate is Skitter but I'm still pretty convinced Skitter is town.

TIAM is clearly scum.

Wave sure smells like TIAMs partner to me. Yesterday, right before quick hammer, Wave mentions that he could vote TIAM instead of lalendra (but really wants Serg) when there is almost no chance of a TIAM lynch. TIAM proceeds to quick hammer. Now suddenly, after a quick hammer and a nonsensical claim/explanation, and after he seems like the most likely lynch candidate, you lean town on him? While simultaneously laughing at his defenses? Sorry if I'm a little bit confused here, but how do TIAMs actions possibly turn him to a town lean?

TIAM's partners are Wavemode and one of {Implosion/{Serg, Chip}} (whichever one is not SK).

Boom.

This is so manufactured it hurts. You're angling to end this game quickly now that we're in mylo and it's so blatantly obvious. TIAM's actions have zero scum motivation and you know it. I'm scum because I'm the only one here who can put more than one iota of thought into people's actual motivations? (Even though I shouldn't *really* be the only one... Skitter can attest that TIAM did the exact same thing in Mini 1931 and was town...) And as much as I would RELISH policy lynching TIAM for always doing stupid anti-town shit...

What are your thoughts on tiam?

As in most games, I would happily lynch tiam, out of principle

As for whether he is scum or not, I have no idea

...I believe we can no longer afford it and need to think critically at this stage. Right now I doubt TIAM is scum, as he'd have no reason to basically assassinate himself with that hammer, and I also think his play is consistent with his meta.

You on the other hand are turning all shades of red. You're executing a chainsaw attack (if you will). We're in fucking mylo, and rather than expressing any interest whatsoever in gathering information, getting people's opinions, discussing a massclaim, discussing whether TIAM can confirm his role, AKA all the things we're SUPPOSED to be doing to avoid this game ending today, you are dead set on getting TIAM lynched for hammering a wagon YOU were pushing for (hard) and anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM's alignment must be TIAM's partner. (Which, by the way LOL why would his partners even be defending him at this point? If you think I'm scum here you must think I'm a pretty shitty player... but I digress.) Your sudden aggression and utter self-certainty when the game is this close to the edge is extremely scummy.

[wavemode]

Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.

For no discernible reason, he hammered Eddie Cane, our doctor, before we could go after Vedith (pretty sure he was Game Replacement in that game) for lying about his night results.

You need to stop ignoring what I'm saying. Heres the long and short: quickhammer in that situation hurts the town, and helps scum. You can dress it up and say that there's no scum motivation because it will get him lynched. Only problem is this is still true for town. There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum. However there IS a scum benefit of a quicklynch without claim and NO benefit to town. You can't let ppl do incredibly scummy, obviously scum motivated things and then pretend theres no scum motivation because theres also a negative consequence for scum in that situation... There are CLEAR AND OBVIOUS scum motivations for TIAM's actions which you have decided are irrelevant because TIAM, a known irrational actor, would be afraid of the consequences?? Gimme a break man.

No, YOU need to stop ignoring what I'M saying.

You're

the one who keeps dressing this up as though the game is solved when it's absolutely not. My problem is not you scumreading TIAM, my problem is you being so sure of yourself and voting him right at daystart WHEN WE ARE IN MYLO. This game is no longer a question of what we can and can't let people do anymore, it's a question of how can we gather as much information as possible and make the best possible decision. As I myself said, I would happily policy lynch TIAM any day of the week for his ridiculousness but WE ARE PAST THAT POINT. "There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum" YES EXACTLY SO STOP TREATING THIS LIKE WE KNOW FOR SURE BECAUSE WE DON'T. You are not scum because you want to lynch TIAM, you're scum because you have this ridiculous moral arrogance like the game is done and solved when it's absolutely not. This shitty, reckless "This is pretty easy, scum quickhammered LUL" attitude you entered this day with? I see it all the time from late game scum (including myself, at times) who think they have a perfect last mislynch set up and the town

always

fail to recognize it and just happily run off a cliff.

I am not pushing that anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM is his partner, I'm pushing that YOU are his partner because your change in stance is nonsensical and because you refuse to acknowledge the logical discrepancy I pointed out. Again, I point to his behavior around thinking he was going to be lynched and note that that argument holds no water if the claim is true. I find it incredibly suspicious that you were leaning scum on him and now lean town after he does an absurdly scummy thing. In no way is this a chainsaw (that would require me to be taking attention off TIAM wagon) and in no way am I pushing that we lynch TIAM immediately.

LOL. Point me to where, at a single point in this entire game, I have ever said I thought TIAM was scum. I've had him at null, at worst, for most of the game. As I said outright at the beginning of the game - my attitude was, TIAM is better dead than alive regardless of his alignment (this scummy mylo push you're making on him is a prime example of why, btw...)

Also, let's just entertain this fiction and say that I was indeed scumleaning TIAM earlier in the game. How is that a "logical discrepancy," and how would that change the facts of today? I've directly pointed you to my specific and logical reasons for leaning town on TIAM, and why I don't believe what he did was necessarily scummy. So... what point are you even trying to make? And besides that, let's address the elephant in the room of WHY AM I DEFENDING TIAM AT THIS POINT? You don't get *out* of mylo, buddy, once you're in, unless the SK shoots scum. All I would have to do is bus TIAM and then lynch someone else tomorrow, and it would still be a scum win. Sooooo.... what am I doing here? But of course these are things you haven't considered, since, as I suspected, your ridiculous scumread-by-association of me was purely kneejerk. You're not critically evaluating jack shit, you're just throwing mud and seeing what sticks to discredit my townread of TIAM so your mislynch will go though. Give it up.

[wavemode]

The fact that I find this laughable ->

Do you seriously believe that town backup RB TIAM quickhammers Lalendra out of fear of being lynched, at 1 vote, with a PR claim in his back pocket? And then comes in and drops the claim first thing today now that their lynch IS imminent? Does that not demonstrate that they know what they're SUPPOSED to do when feeling threatened with a lynch?

Is the reason I'm scum? Your whole argument here is from the presupposition that TIAM did not truly believe Lalendra was scum who was about to escape and get him lynched. You can debate the merits of his reasoning til kingdom come but at the end of the day this is the exact same situation that played out in a previous game I've had with TIAM, and he flipped town. So again, what is your point? If this is your whole basis for scumreading me you're going to need to try harder than this son.

[wavemode]

The fact that you still act as though this is about TIAM and not about your attitude is also laughable... this isn't my first rodeo, and I know an endgame push when I see one.

[wavemode]

How is this the exact same situation?
- They were vanilla there and didn't fake claim anything specific.
- They stood by the hammer and didn't try to explain it away or make excuses. Here, TIAM makes the excuse that he was worried about being the lynch instead of just standing by the vote like they did as town in 1931.
- TIAM drops the hammer well into the day, after double digit pages of discussion, NOT after day has barely been open at all and when activity is scarce. (I like that you somehow forgot to address this point from my last post, I guess its inconvenient for the whole 'exact same situation' argument?)

Admit it; this is NOT the same situation and TIAMs argument that he was worried about being lynched is laughably seethrough even for him. Its a bold faced lie to imply this is the same situation and its either negligent or insincere to not acknowledge that there are degrees of anti-town behavior and that TIAMs hammer here far exceeds the scumminess of their hammer there.

I'm sorry but you can't just say TIAM has quickhammered as town before under different circumstances and different context and with completely different follow up behavior and claim its the exact same thing. You're just making up excuses for him and I really have to question why you would do that, and why your behavior would change so drastically after being accused of partners with him.

I already said I'm dropping the point about your stance flipping because I misinterpreted your post about wanting to lynch TIAM yesterday. For those keeping track at home, that means my scumread on you is not as strong as it was before. The secondary reason is that the case against TIAM is in my opinion pretty rock solid and you oppose it based on fallacious reasoning. The two hammers were NOT the same thing, not at all. TIAM's explanation and claim are completely at odds with eachother. Insisting over and over that HES DONE THIS BEFORE is either insincere or you're guilty of the lack of critical thinking that you keep accusing me of, by clearing him for doing something similar once as vanilla. Defending someone I think is scum based on faulty logic (especially when I think you're smart enough to see how its faulty) makes me think you must be scummy...I'm sorry that makes you so salty.

You're comically missing the point. All you've basically pointed out is that they're two different games. Thanks, Captain Obvious, I recognize that. Would you also like to point out that one game was in the summer and this one is in the fall? It's equally irrelevant to my point. The essence of what I'm describing, i.e. that TIAM is a player with zero grasp on Mafia etiquette who derphammers his scumreads at will, remains valid. The more you keep trying to twist this as though I have no valid reasons to believe TIAM is town here, the worse you look, not me.

[wavemode]

So why are you so skeptical of there being an SK

[wavemode]

BAHAHA

I doubt it

But that's funny

[wavemode]

Has anyone played in a 13er with an SK?

mini 1931

[wavemode]

VT as well

[wavemode]

And then we have RB, Backup RB and FBI. And vig I suppose, if anyone believes that

Either way town PR's seem somewhat sparse if TIAM is fakeclaiming...

[wavemode]

Notwithstanding Chip's alignment, we likely have to lynch scum today, not SK

I'd be willing to vote Serg or Seph

If we lynch correct and the game is still on, Chip should shoot TwoInAMillion tonight

[wavemode]

i really wanna quit but know whats funny? I might die tonight know why? Because I lied about being a VT, I'm a gunsmith, 2 in a million has a gun.

Well this would have been nice to know...

[wavemode]

Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.

Then you're naive about good vig play. It's not about my personal feelings, it's about who most people want dead. Get rid of them at night so we don't have to debate about it

[wavemode]

Sure but if he's lying about his role, then he dies

[wavemode]

Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.

Then you're naive about good vig play. It's not about my personal feelings, it's about who most people want dead. Get rid of them at night so we don't have to debate about it

The most people wanted him dead today via lynch yet you argued against it at length. How is this different? Should you not argue against the death of players you believe to be protown (especially PR) regardless of how they will die? It would be one thing to not argue against that choice but suggesting it yourself is fairly surprising.

Like I said, it's surprising to you because you're not thinking about it strategically from my perspective, you're just looking at face value

I was just vig in Large 207, which we won. You think all the people I shot there, I personally thought were scum? Not a chance. But I still killed two scum, just by getting rid of lurkers and people the town wanted dead anyway. (And by resisting the urge to shoot according to my own whims. Which really is a very strong urge sometimes...)

[wavemode]

Yeah but that's the thing, if the scum have a roleblocker, our "vig" is useless no matter who he shoots or says he's going to shoot. They're not going to risk it

[wavemode]

In any case, TIAM and Serg are in a 1v1 and we have a "vig" shot. Let's say TIAM is scum roleblocker - like skitter says, we can't kill him at night, since he will block chip. So, we lynch him today, then if he flips town we vig Serg. Either way, tomorrow there will we be only 2 scum left and we keep the game going. Any objections?

[wavemode]

No. Right now there are at most three scum and at least 5 non-scum, since there's 8 alive and the game is not over. So if you are lynched, serg is vigged, and someone in the town is nightkilled, it would be at least 3 town vs at most 2 scum tomorrow

[wavemode]

I mean, if the scumteam know what's good for them they should shoot Chip regardless of his alignment. We're certainly never ever lynching him, and them leaving him alive carries the risk of him eliminating them outright. I'm hoping that sense of self-preservation means we don't have to deal with this SK problem we seem to have

[wavemode]

Serg should clearly gunsmith someone to clear them, rather than smithing Chip to determine something that's, honestly, rather irrelevant to our current position

[wavemode]

UNVOTE: 2inamillion

Yeah, we still need to discuss.

Yeah, but I mean, from your point of view what is there to discuss? You have a guilty...

[wavemode]

Yeah he didn't conjugate that properly

But my question still stands

[wavemode]

Correct

[wavemode]

Because he's lying.

You do realize you're in a direct 1v1 with Serg and that you're calling him a liar but that you're not trying to get him lynched? You aren't even voting him right now - you're voting Chip.

Could that be his bussing vote?

Could this be Serg still ignoring my question

[wavemode]

Call me crazy, but I'm not super comfortable voting in mylo on the basis of a guilty when the person who has the guilty unvoted and is active lurking...

[wavemode]

VOTE: TIAM

[wavemode]

Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate. Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so

[wavemode]

And probably don't announce who you want to check tbh.

[wavemode]

seph imp

[wavemode]

I'm down with the plan, I think.

This vote looks bad from wave.

[wavemode]

Wave, what question did you had for me?

UNVOTE: 2inamillion

Yeah, we still need to discuss.

Yeah, but I mean, from your point of view what is there to discuss? You have a guilty...

In fact, to me it sounded like YOU had something to say to US, which is what I was curious about

[wavemode]

I'm down with the plan, AFTER all the necessary discussion has taken place. Your vote looked opportunistic, like impatient scum going 'At last!'

Chip are you even hearing yourself

Like, your alignment is irrelevant right now so I'm actually just asking you genuinely right now, as a Mafia player

Are you hearing yourself

[wavemode]

More specifically, explain to me in plain terms how you got the above from anything I've said or done today. Like, lay it out for me very simply because right now I'm flabbergasted

[wavemode]

It's an impression I got from the vote/unvote sequence between you, Taco, and skitter on the last page.

???

This sequence, where everyone in the game agrees to the plan I put forward, but then Serg unvotes and I'm curious as to why he did so?

UNVOTE: 2inamillion

Yeah, we still need to discuss.

UNVOTE: 2inamillion

Yeah, we still need to discuss.

Yeah, but I mean, from your point of view what is there to discuss? You have a guilty...

Call me crazy, but I'm not super comfortable voting in mylo on the basis of a guilty when the person who has the guilty unvoted and is active lurking...

Call me crazy, but I'm not super comfortable voting in mylo on the basis of a guilty when the person who has the guilty unvoted and is active lurking...

ur scum. i know it. anyway im not active lurking, i have finals. finals>this game.

VOTE: 2 in a million

VOTE: TIAM

I mean, you can say I'm overreacting if you want to but it's a

little

late in the game for me to just ignore when people are making blatantly false or illogical statements about me. So sure, Chip, go ahead and play your pansy game of throwing idiotic shade then going "lul look at this scum, so defensive lul." I've never been lynched when I was town and I can guaran-fucking-tee you it's not happening now

[wavemode]

prodge

[wavemode]

V/LA til Saturday for finals

[wavemode]

Alright I don't have a ton of time today but I'm going to make two statements that might not make sense now but I will explain. But I need two responses first.

The first statement is: given TwoInAMillion's flip, I strongly suspect implosion is town here.

The response I need is: is this accurate Sergtacos? Is implosion town? I ask because you said you would investigate him next.

The second statement is: since Chip Butty was killed last night, I believe Sephiroth will claim Vanilla Townie.

The response I need is: is this accurate Seph? Notwithstanding any previous claims you've made, do you claim Vanilla Townie?

[wavemode]

OK

[wavemode]

I'm very sorry that I have become prod bait of late. I will post responses and my thoughts tonight. Just to end any suspense that wave might be in, no my role did not change overnight.

[wavemode]

Alright let me start by saying I'm odd-night Vanilla Cop. Night 1 I checked implosion and got Vanilla. Night 3 (

which was last night, the title of thread should read Day 4 Nex

) I investigated Sephiroth and got Not Vanilla.

If you noticed I started to back off my scumlean of implosion after night 1 and I more just wanted to understand some of his motivations. He made some surprising statements the morning of day 2 but I could see where his head was at so I didn't pursue it further. Then as the game started to whittle down I figured it was starting to be more and more reasonably likely he was goon, so looking around yesterday a seph/imp team with tiam roleblocker seemed as good a theory as any. But then TIAM flipped goon so now I figure it is unlikely the scumteam have two goons. Not impossible, but very strange balance-wise, I think.

As for seph, he's just fucking scum so yesterday I specifically waited for him to claim before claiming myself. If he had claimed a power role I would have just claimed vanilla cop outright but when he said VT I knew for a fact he was lying and I just wanted to catch him in it and now I have

[wavemode]

It also can't be, like, 1 mafia PR, 2 goons and a traitor. I didn't realize this before but traitors count for endgaming so the game would've indeed been over yesterday when we were 8 if they had that

[wavemode]

I actually started an elaborate VC crumb lol but I forgot about it and gave up at "VAN"

[wavemode]

I mean, it's not a good one

VT as well

And then we have RB, Backup RB and FBI. And vig I suppose, if anyone believes that

Either way town PR's seem somewhat sparse if TIAM is fakeclaiming...

Notwithstanding Chip's alignment, we likely have to lynch scum today, not SK

I'd be willing to vote Serg or Seph

If we lynch correct and the game is still on, Chip should shoot TwoInAMillion tonight

First letter of posts, V-A-N

Then I think once Serg hardclaimed I had no real way to keep it up subtly and still logically address everything that was going on

[wavemode]

Truthfully I didn't think my role was going to be useful this game at all

But together with a gunsmith it can hard clear people as not having a gun and also not being doctor or traitor

[wavemode]

Fie then! why sit we musing,
Youth's sweet delight refusing?
Fa la la la la la la la la la la

la la la la la la...

[wavemode]

If you're sticking with your VT claim I VOTE: Sephiroth

[wavemode]

Why would someone as a vanilla cop (who has a gun) ask to be investigated here

after the investigative explicitly tells you theyre not investigating you

You answered your own question

Are you reading the words you're typing at this point or is it all a blur

[wavemode]

Vanilla Cop here never asks to be investigated

You're right, that's why I didn't

[wavemode]

Can you also elaborate on how you would be unable to continue the crumb just because the topic of discussion changed? You were doing the first letter of every post so how in the heck does the game momentum changing possibly prevent you from continuing to be conscious of the first letter of every post?

Yeah I suppose I can see why this is hard for you to understand

Serg hardclaiming didn't change anything for you or force you to reevaluate anything since you already know everyone's alignment

[wavemode]

Yeah I don't believe wavemode

-> setup was balanced at massclaim and wave didn't challenge it.

-> tiam tried a shitty role gambit that I don't think he was smart enough to conjure up himself. That means he was coached. It makes sense for scum wave to be consistent with role gambiting.

-> Sephiroph has been a town read of mine for the majority of the game.

2 is crackbrained. 3 is circular reasoning. as for 1... I'd be dead right now if I had claimed yesterday, and you know that. So why is this your argument here? I'd expect this kind of reasoning from scum who go "shit, town gambited me. Well I'll make him pay for that by arguing that he should have claimed sooner! (even though that means I would have killed him...)"

Even Seph has not been willing to make that argument in its own right, since he knows that it'd be retarded and make him look horrible.

[wavemode]

I mean, semantically you're right, but you said you would prefer if you were the one investigated. It would be pretty amusing for you to sit there and argue that 1159 is not asking to be investigated.

You're the one arguing semantics at this point. All I'm arguing is what did and didn't happen. You can use whatever definition of "ask" helps you sleep at night buddy

How come in your first response you say there is an obvious reason to ask to be investigated but now your response is 'that never happened'?

Uhhh because both are true? There is an obvious reason to ask, but I never did. Or hey, maybe by your definition of "ask" I did "ask." But I'm not sure what that changes, maybe you could enlighten me to your actual point?

[wavemode]

Nope. Crackbrained would be getting yourself killed when you could get yourself a guilty instead

[wavemode]

That you're not seeing this is astounding

[wavemode]

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

Don't be this stupid and then act surprised I guess?

"if you're town" ?? Hypothetically if you were to recognize I'm town, you'd also have to recognize that I have a FUCKING GUILTY. What is worth more than that at this stage? I'm stupid for successfully outing one of the (probably) two scum remaining?

[wavemode]

You'd have a FUCKING GUILTY

***IF***

you're town.

The only way you would be town right now is if you're incredibly stupid. I don't think you're stupid, but you're welcome to argue to me otherwise.

I'm thoroughly convinced you don't even understand the words you yourself write. Like sweet jesus, you say I'm only town if I'm stupid, but if I'm town.... I have a guilty! So how is that stupid?? You still have not explained what is "incredibly stupid" about anything I've done, except that I didn't claim yesterday, even though that would have gotten me killed and I wouldn't have gotten a guilty!

[wavemode]

Wave openly admitted that scum needed to kill chip, and is still arguing that scum would have killed him instead. You're arguing things for wave that he didn't believe in.

This... this is just... like I don't even know how to respond directly to this, it's so completely retarded that I'm having trouble telling whether it's even English

Alright, it's whatever at this point. This is probably just a scumclaim from flubber and he doesn't care since if they lynch me the game ends in their favor so I probably shouldn't be getting so worked up over this

I will just take a step back from the nitty gritty of the thing and say in general, I was pretty sure chip was an sk so I wanted him dead. I think I wasn't alone in that sentiment

[wavemode]

Flubber I actually don't think it's productive for me to have this discussion with you because you don't seem to understand the value of a guilty. You don't understand that scum will kill people who are on the verge of getting a guilty on them, and that town will do things that are out of the ordinary if they feel it will keep them alive and net them a guilty. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're high, who knows at this point. But the more you argue from this bizarre perspective that I should have claimed yesterday, or that the scumteam maybe wouldn't have wanted to kill me, or any of these other nonsensical arguments you keep trying to make, the more you're convincing me that this is actually just a fruitless discussion. You've made up your mind and, frankly, I can live with that at this stage.

[wavemode]

It's "bald-faced lie"*

[wavemode]

Wossi - Town FBI Agent - Killed Night 1

[wavemode]

Wossi - Town FBI Agent - Killed Night 1

[wavemode]

Mine carries more meaning

Keeping an SK alive in mylo is an eventual SK win no matter how you slice it

[wavemode]

lol I knew you would say that shit

Nothing stops them from killing me then killing chip later. But they did need to kill him at some point, I do concede

[wavemode]

Are you still forgetting that he already said he wouldn't investigate me?

[wavemode]

What do you mean, that's what I have now since seph is lying about his role

[wavemode]

Although the one thing I don't get from Wave is why he assumed they'd kill him and not Serg last night if he had claimed yesterday.

I wasn't certain of Serg's alignment yesterday, if you recall...

If the question is between me and chip, it's obvious I'm the kill there. If the question is between me and serg, my apprehension was simply because I really didn't know he was town. That's why we spent so much time setting up a vig strategy

[wavemode]

4 days, 10 hours, 3 minutes

Did this turn into a blitz?

[wavemode]

Right, but neither you nor Serg could have known that you'd get a guilty before you investigated people. You didn't know *yesterday* that Seph was lying, and since you claimed VT, you were never dying last night.

Yes? This is all true. And it's why I did what I did, to stay alive and find out for sure

I'm not sure why you thought they'd kill *you* instead of Serg or Chip last night if you had claimed. Serg could get the same level of guilty. You'd get a guilty if someone lied about being a VT and was actually a scum PR, and Serg would get a guilty if they lied about being a VT and was actually a goon. Like you posed the same level of threat to them as Serg did if there's a scum!PR, less if there wasn't.

As I said, I didn't know Serg was town yesterday. At the time I claimed VT, I was hard scumreading Serg and he had not yet claimed. Even if after he claimed I had felt like backtracking and outing myself for some reason, I'd still have been reluctant because I still wasn't certain TIAM was scum and Serg was town - which is why I proposed we settle it with the vig shot.

I don't know why you think you'd be the kill here between you and chip tbh. Chip can kill them. You can guilty them but you have to convince us you have a guilty.

Is it that hard to see? Okay, maybe you as scum would see chip as more of a threat but that's not how I see things at all. If I were scum claiming VT I'd want to avoid someone finding out I'm lying. One one hand you have the off possibility that chip shoots, and shoots correctly, and on the other hand you have the pretty much certainty that wavemode will check the claim of his biggest scumread. In my mind that's a clear situation where you kill wavemode, and it's exactly what I was trying to avoid. Though maybe we just agree to disagree on this point.

Do you now think Serg is town? And if so, why?

You're right, there is the possibility that Serg did an elaborate bus on TIAM, and I did consider it. But I still consider Serg town because Seph is confscum for me right now, so Serg would have to be Seph's partner. In which case he would have come into today with an inno on Seph, or a guilty on someone else. Either of those would have been a good path to victory for them as a scumteam.

[wavemode]

Was there another reason why you wanted massclaim yesterday?

The main reason I was in favor of a massclaim was so I could catch someone lying about being a VT that night, or perhaps that day catch implosion fakeclaiming a power role when I knew he didn't have one

What was this?

The truth. Even considering my own role, I thought we seemed like a pretty weak town until Serg claimed

why did you decide to check him night 1?

He was one of my hunch scumreads at the time. I thought he was trying to coast on Wossi lynchbait rather than find actual scum motivations

why did a 'vanilla' result make you back off him day 2?

It decreased the general odds of him being scum. That didn't prove him as town, but I decided to reevaluate and possibly wait until later in the game to get him by PoE or setup spec, rather than push him directly. And, indeed, now that a goon has flipped, I'm liking my decision to be patient with implosion. I really would consider it a very strange setup if 2/3 of the scumteam are goons

in relation to the following posts, specifically the fact that implosion became a major contender for scum at the very end of day 3?

With respect to that progression, Chip was ruled out after claiming vig. Then Serg was part of a 1v1 so the question was no longer whether he or TIAM was scum, the question was who are the other two. Holding fast on Seph, that was the point where I needed to decide if my townreads of Flubber/skitter were wrong, or if implosion was simply a mafia goon. I decided to go with the latter

[wavemode]

How do I "play to" odd night vanilla cop beyond catching people lying in massclaim

And I suppose remaining patient on implosion in the early game

[wavemode]

I also started a crumb in that game that I didn't finish. It just says "EVEN"

[wavemode]

Well then that's a 3/3 split, so no lynch

It's reasonably likely they kill implosion or skitter for being on my side so Serg you need to gunsmith Seph tonight. Tomorrow when you find he has a gun you'll see things my way. Alternatively, if you find he doesn't have a gun, feel free to lynch me on the spot

[wavemode]

Mm, maybe we're having a miscommunication. I never said a no-lynch was ideal, I'm simply preparing for the eventuality. Forgive me for planning ahead but Serg hasn't been super checked into the game because of what time of year it is so I felt it needed to be said now while he's online. I specifically

don't

want a no-lynch scenario, and I

especially

don't want a no-lynch scenario where we go into tomorrow and Serg is alive but he checked someone other than Seph. I understand your point about the night kills but I've been in these exact scenarios and it always goes poorly when town make assumptions on who the scumteam is going to kill. In fact sometimes a PR assumes they will get killed and submits no action.

This is all I feel I can offer him at this point since I don't think me grilling him on why he thinks I'm scum is going to make him think I'm any less scum. You talking to him is exactly what I'm hoping for.

[wavemode]

In fact sometimes a PR assumes they will get killed and submits no action.

Porkens did this in a mini I just played

[wavemode]

Well skitter what you're reading into it and what I meant are in conflict. I haven't resigned to anything and nothing I wrote says that I have, so I'm not sure what I can say to that at this point except, you're misunderstanding. I guess you're taking when I say "no lynch" to mean "today will end in a no lynch" (if that's what I had said I'd agree with you. It makes no sense for me to say something like that) But really it just meant "no lynch right now." As in, we need to make plans and not sit around. To that end, it should be made clear who needs to be investigated tonight. This right here:

Like I'm not saying that Serg is for sure going to die tonight

Was literally the only reason for my post. We don't know for sure, and we shouldn't make assumptions about it.

[wavemode]

And even if you're saying that it meant 'no lynch right now', there wasn't going to be a lynch then anyways, regardless of what Serg said then and no matter whose side he's on, so I don't know why you felt the need to bring that up; I don't think anyone was thinking that there was going to be a lynch just then.

I'm actually not sure what you mean by this. I'm pretty sure with support from Serg we would have then begun lynching Sephiroth. I suppose it's true that there would have been talk of night actions (well, not really. there'd only be one person left for serg to check at that point, and that's imp) and other theories, but bottom line is we would have started wrapping up the day.

And even if we lynch correctly today and the game doesn't end, the instructions that you gave Serg aren't necessarily optimal here and I don't know if I per se agree with them. Like I dislike you casting them as 'Serg needs to check Seph' when from your POV, Serg might be dying and Seph could well be a scum!doc. Then even if Serg does somehow survive, checking Seph would clear him, and you told us to lynch you if Seph gets cleared.

You're saying that Serg *needs* to check Seph, like that's his optimal night action, but scum!doc!Seph should be a valid scenario from your POV, and doing that would lose the game cuz you told us to lynch you if Serg clears him. Like I'm not sure why you've just discounted that possibility.

Even beyond the no-lynch thing, that post was really bad because the instructions you gave Serg just don't make much sense from your POV :/

I mean, you're allowed to disagree; nobody says you aren't. But as for me, I absolutely do consider it the best course of action so yes, I framed it that way on purpose. Serg scumreading me and checking implosion and being alive tomorrow still results in me getting lynched, by serg and seph and flubber, and us losing. A no-lynch here is super un-ideal, but at least if he checks Seph then I've got a shot, since in the grand scheme of things Seph *most likely* isn't scum doc. I think my point of view there is pretty straightforward. I'm confused as to why you consider it "really bad."

[wavemode]

This is kinda interesting in light of the above post. so's this one, etc..

And this in light of you pushing mass-claim yesterday.

I assume you're asking my rationale for those posts? Well let's see then

First one seems straightforward enough. If you have a 1v1 you pick a side, you don't go lynching some other person.

What is it you want to know about the second link?

Same question for the third link. I imagine because I said massclaim was premature? I mean, it was at the time.

[wavemode]

Yeah no offense to Serg since I'm sure he's busy with life but he definitely has been extremely low-activity. My post was just something I really wanted to say to him as soon as I caught him online, just in case.

[wavemode]

It makes sense because you're reading meaning into where there is none

Like, seriously skitter, evaluate me meta-wise. This is literally never my scum game.

Seriously, why do I throw myself in front of TIAM there? COME ON don't abandon common sense this late into the game. Find me one example in my scum games where this is ever a play I make. You can look at Mini 1950, where I bussed Boon after he made a bad fakeclaim. He even told me not to but I wasn't going to risk him flipping red and then the town associating me with him. And this is BOON we're talking about, probably the last player on this site you'd ever have to worry about creating bad associatives for you. But I still didn't want to put myself in a risky situation. I don't like playing scum and I don't like putting myself in stressful situations when I am scum. And you think in this game I do that for TIAM of all people? Seriously, go read that game and its mafia thread and come back here and say in earnest that this is EVER something I do as scum. Like seriously, what is the gain??

In constrast, my towngame is where if I see the town going in the wrong direction I will speak up. You say you didn't like my townread of Wossi because you weren't seeing the reason at the time. Well, the game where he was day 1 lynched and flipped town has ended so now I can show you that meta. It was Mini Normal 1957 and I literally could not talk about it because of site rules since the game was still ongoing. He did some strange things day 1 in that game and was day 1 lynched but even there, I got the sense he was coming from a town mindset. Yeesh, you act like I was just townreading Wossi to pocket him or get towncred (I mean, do you realize that players on this site have become so meta-aware of that kind of thing that real scum almost never do it? I see people accused of "pocketing" on a regular basis and maybe 1/10 times it is accurate...) Like, find any of my games; I make early townreads on certain kinds of players because I know how to evaluate their mindset, even if they're bad at expressing themselves (which I think you and I can both agree, Wossi is). Seriously, THAT is my towngame. When I see lynchbait going down I try to steer town in the right direction. I don't care if it makes me look scummy and I will fight for my point regardless.

You can even go read Open 694 Friends and Enemies. Transcend was going to be an early wagon but I could see where his mind was at in certain regards, even if I disagreed with some of his points. I took a hard stance on transcend being town very early in that game and it caught me a lot of flak but I didn't give a shit. When I'm town I don't do things because I care about how it looks, I do what I believe in.

Hell, just a couple days ago we finished Open 703 Masons and Mafia. I had an early townread on Gamma Emerald even though his play in that game was atrocious. It was on meta and it was correct, but it still got me really, really scumread, to the point of getting taken to L-2 (even Gamma voted me! lol). But that was how I felt about Gamma and I was going to make it known.

I DID NOT ASK TO BE INVESTIGATED, I SIMPLY SHOWED NO RELUCTANCE TO IT, HYPOTHETICALLY. I HAD LITERALLY JUST HARD DEFENDED SOMEONE WE THEN FOUND OUT WAS LIKELY GUILTIED AND I KNOW HOW THAT LOOKS. I WASN'T ABOUT TO SAY "Hey serg if you don't mind, dont investigate me tonight kthx". IF I CLAIMED VC AT THAT POINT LIKE "heey man I know I have a gun but I'm town I swear!" I WOULD HAVE BEEN LYNCHED ON THE SPOT AFTER TIAM'S FLIP AND THIS GAME WOULD ALREADY BE OVER. BUT HE HAD ALREADY SAID HE WASN'T GOING TO TARGET ME SO IN MY MIND IT WAS A NON-ISSUE AT THE TIME. Like, think about that in serious terms. What's the main thing that would have caused Serg to say "hey wait lemme check wavemode". Maybe, uh, me acting reluctant to be investigated? He said at this point he was certain I was scum. Furthermore, showing reluctance to be investigated at this point would have just been a signal to the scumteam that I was a PR. Or possibly it would have just gotten me lynched. Either way, there was literally no point in doing it. I'm still just completely confused as to what part of this is so difficult to comprehend, or how it somehow proves I'm lying.

DO NOT throw this game away for these inane reasons. Actually go critically evaluate things and I am so obviously town here it is flabbergasting.

[wavemode]

Forgot to mention, Newbie 1833 Literally Mafia, where I was town. I replaced in and instantly had a hard townread on PsykoSavant, even though he was widely scumread. Which was also used against me.

Also forgot to mention another scumgame of mine, Open 697 Tit for Tat, where literally my first serious vote of the game was on my scum partner. And we lynched him!

[wavemode]

I actually just don't know how to make any of this any more plainly obvious. I didn't even want to self-meta because I thought in-game Seph has been scummy enough that this lynch would not be rocket science (which also sort of points to, why should I fakeclaim? We could have gotten up support for a Seph or implosion lynch in time, and if they're town that's all I as scum would need to win the game. Only way this claim makes sense here is if I'm town who has been preparing for this since yesterday, which I have!) YOU'RE the one who went and found a past game where I lied in massclaim, I didn't try to argue that as a point for myself. And then I also remembered, "hey, I also made a crumb in that game that I failed to finish, what a coincidence. Sure hope town uses common sense and sees that this is very obviously my town game."

[wavemode]

So yeah, forgive me if I'm agitated that this is falling apart like this. I don't mind losing as town, it's a learning experience. But like this? When Seph has been acting scummy for two days? When I have a clear guilty I've been angling for since yesterday? When literally every singe thing I've done in this game is 100% consistent with how I play as town, and 100000% INconsistent with how I EVER play as scum? Come ON people, open your eyes!

[wavemode]

Exactly, what do you know lmao. Those quotes are talking about two completely different things

[wavemode]

You keep saying I've been scummy for a while but never really make a case to that effect.

See, this is the difference between you and me, Seph. I actually know my role and that you're scum. I spent plenty of time yesterday casing you as scum (so I'm not sure why you're now saying I haven't...), but today all I present are the facts, which is that you claimed vanilla townie but I got a result of not vanilla on you.

Like, I know you aren't town so this is hard to wrap your head around, but what sense would it actually make for me to point to one of your posts and go "hmm I don't like Seph's tone here, it's scummy" or some shit like that. What would it prove? What would it change, for me to start PbPA'ing you and get into a war of words as you try to pick apart my points? If I know for a fact that you're scum, that's all I need lol. Anything else is just gravy.

I'm just saying, people know your meta and MS is a very meta aware site. The fact that the move goes contrary to your usual meta is what makes it a good move because you can then make the argument that its against your meta.

"the move" lmao. You mean all of my play throughout this entire game? And by "the argument", you mean self-meta arguments that I literally did not mention until today after skitter started digging into them herself (and found, on her own, games where my play identically matches my play here), because I considered them irrelevant? (Because, as I say again, I know for a fact you're scum. My meta should have been irrelevant to that - ideally, all I should need to present are the facts.)

Also, "people know your meta" is a pretty funny comment because, who in this game even knows my meta? I suppose one might say Flubber, but he couldn't even remember that I was town way back in Open 694, much less the nuances of how I played. skitter also could not remember all that much about the Mini 1931 we were in. And as for everyone else, I mostly haven't played with them. I really haven't been on this site for all that long. So that approach wouldn't even make sense here, yet you're painting it as if it's some optimal strategy for me this game.

[wavemode]

The only really telling thing here is that you recognize that everything I've done in this game matches my town meta to a tee, and completely goes against anything I've ever even conceived doing as scum, and you truly can not point to a single thing contrary. Your only response is "lel, your meta argument is perfect because that was your plan all along." Come off it, Seph.

[wavemode]

If you're an investigative role, and don't know how to read TIAM (158), and would always be willing to policy him (996) .... why didn't you just check him n1? In this context, you're kinda going to have to justify checking implosion over TIAM here. Just calling implosion one of your hunch scumreads (1315) and checking him doesn't really square with your feelings for TIAM tbh.

It doesn't? Could you explain what you mean by that? I mean, there were plenty of people I thought might be scum on day 1. TIAM was a possibility but I went with implosion instead, for the reasons I gave. Pretty sure at that time Serg and Lalendra were also two people I considered, but I decided on implosion. Yes, in hindsight a TIAM check would have helped us the most, but I'm no psychic.

Now that I think about it, there was *a lot* of discussion as to whether or not Two was lying. If you're an odd-night vc, couldn't you have just checked him last night to see if he was lying?

Like you were pushing a lynch on Serg/Seph, but the reason you gave is not so that you could check Two last night (like I don't remember this point coming up anywhere), but so that you would have a night to live so that you could verify seph's VT claim, and live to substantiate implosion's.

From the POV of a VC, like wouldn't you want to check the dude who you want to policy-lynch anyways, who claimed a kinda weird role under incriminating circumstances? Wouldn't Two have been the perfect target last night? And instead you wanted to check Seph? Like all the reasons you gave for the massclaim and lying through it is so that you could make sure Implosion and Seph weren't lying. You never mentioned wanting to make sure you and Two would live to today so that you could check him.

And telling someone to vig Two from the POV of a vanilla cop who can just check if he's lying is honestly kinda bizarre. (although tbf I can see why this point in particular might come from a town mindset in these circumstances)

This point's also perplexing to me because, again, I'm no psychic; so help me out if I'm missing something here. I agree that a TIAM check would have proved his claim wrong since he'd have come back Vanilla, but how could I have known that? Most of our talk was around the possibility that TIAM was a scum roleblocker - that's still Not Vanilla. So in my mind, my role wasn't really going to help us resolve the 1v1. In fact, by this point I was coming around to the idea of implosion being Mafia Goon, so I really didn't even consider the possibility that, even if TIAM was scum, he'd be a Goon whose claim I could prove wrong with my ability. I was pretty convinced he was going to flip roleblocker, which is why when you asked me yesterday who the other two scum were, I said seph/imp. At that time, I mentally had the scumteam as TIAM roleblocker (or, possibly Serg as something else), imp goon, and then I was going to check Seph and prove his VT claim to be false. And on the off chance Seph had come back Vanilla, I was still going to present that and say that imp and Seph are not both scum, since the scumteam probably don't have two goons.

2. Can you clarify the Lalendra vote, especially wrt to the points I raised in the post I made last night? And why you were null on Mulch.

Uh, if you're asking me why I voted Lalendra, it's because I thought she was scummy. I think earlier in the game I made a post about it but nobody really inquired further so I didn't expound much:

I partitioned the game. Most people are on two big wagons, and a few are elsewhere. Just as a matter of course, there is probably scum avoiding the wagons - I'm guessing Lalendra.

Just from a gamesolving perspective, Lalendra made sense as scum avoiding being on the major wagons. Then her reads were unclear and her tone was waffly day 2 and I think everyone could agree at that point she was a good lynch. I have never even made a point against Seph for pushing the Lalendra lynch since, most of the points he had been making against her, I could see too. (Seph on the other hand started attacking

me

for voting Lalendra the very next day... but I digress.)

As for Mulch, it was the same as with Wossi. I've seen Mulch day 1 lynched too many times to not start to see when he is just town self-destructing and not actually scum. The difference between them though that made me null on Mulch and townread Wossi is, is that Mulch is very self-aware of his meta and is capable of playing a certain way just to convince you he is town self-destructing. So I needed more content from him and wasn't willing to declare a definite townread just yet. I've been scum with Mulch and I've seen what he can do; townreading him out of hand would have been irresponsible.

[wavemode]

'Casing' is a VERY generous way of describing your behavior towards me yesterday. Do you mean mentioning in two unrelated posts that I could be scum, then getting in a 1v1 with me over TIAM being scum and me thinking you're scum for defending him? You didn't start doing anything remotely close to casing me or arguing for me being scum until AFTER I accused you of being partners with TIAM. I'd also note that your arguments yesterday made no sense since you accused me of a chainsaw attack (which it was not, by definition) and then proceeded to say that TIAMs meta was a town tell when it was at best a null tell and more accurately a scum tell since his play here is very different than his quickhammer as town in the other game. Your defense of that point just reads like you didnt expect someone to actually pay attention to the details. I mean, 'theyre different games'? Come on dude. You know full well that meta relies on the differences in a way people play games. I can't believe you seriously tried to make that point. Plus, even if I were to concede that you were 'casing' me yesterday (I don't; you weren't), the fact remains that I was widely town read. The lack of easy mislynches remaining is what necessitates the gambit in the first place so this is a pretty important point.

I mean, this whole paragraph sort of just focuses on defending yourself against points I made against you yesterday, in a completely different context, when I thought TIAM was town. Not sure why you're hard defending yourself against all of that now, even though nobody is trying to argue those things against you now

Part of being good town is convincing others you're right and you know that. Thats exactly why I responded to your claim as I did. You're acting like you can make your claim and ride off into the sunset when there isnt any independent reason for anyone to believe you. The game is on the line, and the best you can do is 'i have a guilty lol'?

Right, and making a bunch of tone points against you wouldn't have proved anything or convinced anyone. Despite what you keep trying to convince people, my play has indeed been entirely consistent with my role, and that should speak for itself. In contrast, if I were scum and knew that my play has been inconsistent, then I would be trying to tear you apart in other ways. So... what actually is your point here, besides further proving my point?

Oh yes, I certainly attacked you purely for voting lalendra and that attack had zero to do with the context and timing of the vote. Are you just trying to throw in an as many subtle jabs/misreps as you can?

That's funny, because you're actually misrepping what

I

said. Where exactly did I say that your attack of me had nothing to do with those things?

You didn't 'show no reluctance', you stated that your preference was that you were investigated.

...which shows no reluctance. So, thanks for agreeing with me? And I know no matter how many times I say this to you you will conveniently forget it the next time the topic comes back up, but for the umpteenth time, I said that rhetorically. You're conveniently missing the part where he already said he was not going to investigate me.

[wavemode]

And asking to be investigated is not consistent with your role at all.

Right, that's why I didn't.

Okay, yeah you offhandedly mentioned me attacking someone for voting someone that I voted, with no further context, and didn't think that would paint me as hypocritical.

If that's the point you think I was making against you there, sure roll with it. But I never said that.

I also think its extremely telling that you weren't willing to throw your weight behind a TIAM wagon but you were completely willing to ask for him to be vigged (a point I brought up WAY earlier but is now extra relevant)

The convenient memory loss returns lol. I already addressed this yesterday at length, but sure let's give it a go again. Now, try to put yourself in a town mindset Seph. If we lynched incorrectly yesterday, what would that mean? Well, it would mean that we would absolutely need to vig correctly, or else the game would be over. On the

other

hand, if we lynched

correctly

yesterday, it would mean the vig would have one shot to get wrong and the game would not be over. So, why in the name of sweet Pete would we not then use that shot on someone who is a huge lategame liability (he had just quickhammered Lalendra for fuck's sake) while there was still a possibility of him having fakeclaimed roleblocker? Okay, so there's always the possibility of a scum doctor - BUT WHAT WOULD THAT CHANGE? If there's a scum doctor, scum roleblocker, scum jailkeeper, you name it - it doesn't matter *who* we target with the vig shot, they will protect the person if they're scum!! Like, I find it hilarious that you keep making this point as though you simply don't understand good vig strategy, even though you've really been playing a lot longer than I have so you ought to have at least a basic grasp of it.

A VC in that scenario just lists some names and moves on with their life

Which would show implicit reluctance to it being me, which is a much bigger risk and you know it.

, they don't ask to be investigated.

Right, that's why I didn't.

[wavemode]

"nuh-uh" "yuh-huh" lmao

I'm sorry but going down a townie that late in the game without full knowledge of the setup or how many scum we had is completely stupid. Theres no way a player like you confidently decides we should purposefully go down a number when so much of the game is up in the air. The only way you confidently make this post is if you don't sincerely believe TIAM is town (ie you know hes scum and him being targetted by NK is much more valuable than being lynched).

What are you even writing here. We already knew there couldn't be more than 3 scum. After a correct lynch that goes down to no more than two. And, uh, are you forgetting we had just massclaimed? lol. Also, I really don't understand how you keep making these "I don't forget things" posts, yet we literally had this exact conversation yesterday and here you are making this same shitty argument. Here, I will recap:

Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.

Then you're naive about good vig play. It's not about my personal feelings, it's about who most people want dead. Get rid of them at night so we don't have to debate about it

Like, you're actually just scum in this game, so I know you're probably being ignorant on purpose, but Seph, you do realize just vigging by one's own personal feelings, is how we got a Dany shot here? And how we got no TIAM shot? Like, in this very game we are playing right now, we have clear evidence of that being an

extremely

bad strategy. Yet still you argue this point like your life depends on it. Well, I suppose it does

[wavemode]

Seph, are you aware of the conditions under which town get endgamed in a Normal?

[wavemode]

So you're saying that because of the possibility of multiball, we shouldn't vig someone widely scumread. Am I understanding your argument correctly?

[wavemode]

Again with this "should never" even though evidence from this very game shows otherwise. Like, I'm wondering what you're even basing that logic on. Why don't you go read the disaster of Large Normal 206's vig (TIAM, as it happens, shooting our gunsmith) or the genius of 207 (me, shooting James Brafin even though I didn't really think he was scum, and I said so) then come back with your "should never" lmao. You shoot who the town wants dead, period. At best it happens to be scum and you're better off, and at worst you get rid of someone who's a liability anyway. There's certain people you don't want to carry into lylo regardless of their alignment.

Again, I really shouldn't need to explain such a basic concept to you of all people.

[wavemode]

So yeah, forgive me if I'm agitated that this is falling apart like this. I don't mind losing as town, it's a learning experience. But like this? When Seph has been acting scummy for two days? When I have a clear guilty I've been angling for since yesterday? When literally every singe thing I've done in this game is 100% consistent with how I play as town, and 100000% INconsistent with how I EVER play as scum? Come ON people, open your eyes!

Can you give me the tldr version of why you think Seph is scum again?

I didn't even think he was scummy until day 3. I considered his rush to throw a vote onto TIAM and lack of awareness of our likely mylo situation to be scumtells, and I said as much then. Obviously I was off-base in thinking the target of his push was town. But it still struck me as off (and now that he's confscum to me I see that it was because he was bussing, so he didn't care how it would look). With Serg and TIAM in a 1v1, Chip obviously not mafia, and Skitter/Flubber as my main townreads, I considered it obvious that the remaining scumteam would be implosion/seph. I had already checked implosion so that would make him the goon, and I figured the scumteam would not have two goons, so I considered the likelihood that Seph would be not vanilla to be quite high. So, I waited for him to claim vanilla so I could claim vanilla myself and check him at night and prove he was lying.

[wavemode]

Alright wait

[wavemode]

Okay, so what I've written up below is longer than I had intended and it mostly rehashes points I've made several times previously, so here's a TLDR - for various reasons, I considered it not particularly likely that checking TIAM would produce a guilty, and for various reasons I considered it pretty likely that checking one of the VT claims could produce a guilty. Skitter was cleared and I already checked implosion so the choice of check for me was between Seph and Flubber, and I chose Seph because throughout day 3 Flubber had some towny signs and Seph had some scummy signs.

Now, on to the meat:

I mean .... I can point to posts that show you've considered the possibility that he was lying about his role.

I don't think this point is unuseful or perplexing. It's kinda important. If you're an odd-night vanilla cop, and there's a dude who quickhammered the day before that you're always sketchy of anyways who you think is a LYLO liability, and he claimed backup roleblocker in sketchy circumstances, I would think that the natural thought process is that you'd want to live through the night so you could check him. Instead you wanted to check Seph.

Like I'm having a *really* hard time seeing why a VC who acknowledged that Two may be lying about being a backup rb didn't consider checking him that night to, you know, check if he was lying about being a backup rb, but instead decided to lie through massclaim in order to check someone else altogether.

Regarding your Seph case, if I just remove all the stuff about the guilty, which is only fact from your POV, I'm left with:

I didn't even think he was scummy until day 3. I considered his rush to throw a vote onto TIAM and lack of awareness of our likely mylo situation to be scumtells, and I said as much then. Obviously I was off-base in thinking the target of his push was town. But it still struck me as off (and now that he's confscum to me I see that it was because he was bussing, so he didn't care how it would look). With Serg and TIAM in a 1v1, Chip obviously not mafia, and Skitter/Flubber as my main townreads, I considered it obvious that the remaining scumteam would be implosion/seph.

Your main reason for scumreading him is the fact that he didn't he didn't act with enough caution in probable MYLO, coupled with PoE (aside, I'm not sure where you developed such a strong townread on Flubber that you're using it to PoE the game). Your other main reason - making an endgame push on lynchbait - is not relevant given that TIAM actually flipped scum. I dunno. This was also the best I could come up with as a case for scum!seph too, and I just don't think it's that strong.

So, I feel like I keep coming back to the same points on this, but let's deconstruct and attack it from the ground up, since we seem to be having something of a disconnect.

You dislike that I didn't check TIAM last night, I get that. Well actually, TIAM was lynched, so, more to the point, you dislike that I didn't speak up yesterday and offer to check TIAM. Okay, so this sort of goes back to what I've said previously, which is that I really didn't feel like my power would actually solve the 1v1 in that scenario. And then there's also the issue of, we had a plan and it was low-risk. But I will explain these in more detail, from the beginning, just so you can fully understand my entire perspective. Okay, so the first issue: I didn't think my power would solve anything. The possibility of speaking up and checking TIAM did cross my mind. But then, consider the scenario where TIAM is a mafia power role. Then, he comes back Not Vanilla, and at best, we've solved nothing and we've wasted a day and lost a townie. Now, as I've said before, I understand that TIAM did, in fact, flip goon, so this would indeed have proved him guilty. However, I really had no way of knowing yesterday that this would happen. Yes, I considered the possibility he was fake claiming, but I had no guarantee he would, in fact, be a Mafia Goon. He could have been a Mafia Anything. One positive point I considered is that we'd also have an extra gunsmith clear. However, this also would not have been a certainty, as we'd have no way of knowing whether Serg would survive to the next day to report it. Also consider that I was not 100% certain, at that point, that Serg was actually town. In the scenario where Serg is scum, he simply kills me at night after I claim and, again, this plan achieves nothing.

Now, onto the second point, which is that we had a plan. The best plan, in my mind, was to solve the 1v1 with the vig shot. We lynch TIAM because his claim makes sense for a scum roleblocker, which could protect him from a vig shot. Then, if he flips town, chip shoots Serg. Otherwise, chip holsters. That, to me, was an optimal strategy. So, the fact that we had Chip and we had this strategy, was further reason that I did not consider it useful or necessary to out myself and offer to check TIAM. Again, I understand that in *hindsight*, coming out and checking TIAM would have solved the issue even better. But I honestly had no way to know that yesterday, so this is how I saw things. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is the main disconnect we're having here. What I'm trying to get you to understand is, I completely understand NOW that TIAM is a goon and that he would have investigated Vanilla if I'd checked him. However, there is truly no way for me to have known THEN that that would have been the case, *especially* after he said "I can confirm my role" (or something like that, I'll have to look back.) Even if he was scum there, that, to me, said that he had some sort of power that could somehow function as roleblocking. Possibly just roleblocker, possibly something else like jailkeeper or ascetic.

Okay, as for the Seph issue, I will address a few various points. First, and probably most important, why check him? Well, as I've said before, you have to understand that I considered my main usefulness as a secret vanilla cop to be that I could catch scum if they fakeclaimed vanilla townie. In addition, with TIAM flipping Goon, I was even more confident that whatever scum were left would be Not Vanilla, since the scumteam likely don't have two goons. At that point, the remaining scumteam was likely right within the ranks of the VT claims - implosion, skitter, flubber, seph. This to me, was a perfect opportunity because if I could just guess who the scum were within those four, they would almost certainly come back Not Vanilla and I'd have a guilty. So, out of the four. I had already checked implosion and he came back vanilla. Skitter I've been townreading since the early game, and also investigated not to have a gun. That right there narrowed it down to Flubber and Seph. So really, it was simply a question of who I scumread more, and the answer there was clearly Seph for me, for the reasons I gave before. Now second, you asked why a Flubber townread and an implosion/sephiroth scumread? Well, just to clarify a bit here, keep in mind that is was only *before* TIAM's flip that I considered the remaining scumteam to be implosion and sephiroth. However, as I've said before, *after* his flip, I didn't think the scumteam would have two goons, so I considered implosion to be likely town because he's Vanilla. (Though, Seph recently raised the possibility of multiball, which I suppose would change things.)

But still, just for the sake of completeness, let's address

before

the flip - why did I, at *that* point, consider the scumteam to be implosion/seph and not consider flubber? Well, the simple answer is that I did consider flubber, but I really thought the associatives were better in imp/seph, and that, as a number of people pointed out yesterday, flubber's posts early day showed towny emotion. It was not such a super-strong townread as to PoE the game, as you say - it simply made me want to check Seph's claim over Flubber's. Then there is the issue you raise of, why scumread Seph at all, even after TIAM flipped scum? Now, first I'd also like to clarify this point - my feelings about whether or not I had a super strong scumread of Seph or not did not particularly factor into my decision to check him. I checked him for the reasons above - it was simply between Seph and Flubber, and Flubber seemed more towny to me at the time. (Personally I think he seemed more towny to most people at the time, but maybe I'm wrong.) However, again, for the sake of completeness I will still explain. Me scumreading Seph at this point sort of goes back to the points I've made several times previously, but I'll put it out there again - scum!TIAM is very likely going to be bussed here, plain and simple.

Especially

by experienced teammates. If you go back and read my argument with seph day 3, I pointed out that he was willing to throw his vote down before any real discussion in the day could be had, like possibly massclaim to maybe assess whether TIAM's claim made sense. Yes, TIAM flipped scum, but I still didn't like Seph's early day 3 attitude, and even when it turned out it wasn't an endgame push from scum on town, it still struck me as something that could come from scum bussing. Again, it wasn't a super strong scumread after TIAM's flip, but it was enough to make me want to check him over flubber.

[wavemode]

Like I'm having a *really* hard time seeing why a VC who acknowledged that Two may be lying about being a backup rb didn't consider checking him that night to, you know, check if he was lying about being a backup rb, but instead decided to lie through massclaim in order to check someone else altogether.

Just to really drive this home and try to understand where the difficulty is coming from, since this seems to be the sticking point, I ask again - what actual evidence did I have yesterday that TIAM was a goon? I completely understand that we were trying to determine whether he was lying about his claim, but still, again - how could I have known then that TIAM would not be a scum power role and investigate Not Vanilla, thus solving nothing?

[wavemode]

Backup scum roleblocker makes a lot of sense here, and I was kinda wondering if that was a thing all game day.

In fact, you yourself wrote this. If TIAM were a scum roleblocker, he investigates Not Vanilla, proving nothing. I really saw no opportunity here. These optimal actions are only clear in hindsight.

[wavemode]

OK, I did my homework and skimmed through your ISOs in all the games you mentioned, and read the scum PT of 1950. I didn't find it that enlightening tbh.

I get that you're just trying to logically consider both sides of this, I understand that. So at the

very

least, can I ask you, why I throw myself in front of TIAM here as his scum partner? You've seen two of my scumgames, in both of which I bussed and lynched my partner once they fell out of line. (Thinking back I'm pretty sure I also did this near the end of my very first newbie...) I really just don't like getting into risky situations where my partner flips red and I'm caught on the wrong side of it. As I've said before, I don't like playing scum and honestly, I really don't tend to put a ton of effort into it, except insofar as I don't want to ruin the game for my scumpartners. There will come a day when I'll put some work into my scum game so I can approach situations like that calmly, but I'm just not there yet.

So, obviously I was wrong to townread TIAM yesterday. But can you honestly say that scum!me did all of that

purely

so it would go completely counter to my meta, even though almost nobody in this game was in either of those games anyway, even though it might kill my credibility with the town, and even though serg and seph were still available to push as mislynches? That last point is particularly important. Obviously serg is town at this point, but at that time yesterday, he had claimed VT. And as for seph, I had already set up by waiting for him to claim first and then, well,

starting

a crumb. So if you assume I'm scum at that point setting up a serg push, or a "fake guilty" on seph for the next day... why defend TIAM? Why not just let him go down there? This is obviously an extremely WIFOM question, but just humor me - I'm simply posing scenarios so you see this clearly in logical terms. If Seph and I are two intelligent actors here, is the intelligent move really to hard defend TIAM and fake guilty the one pushing him? Or is it to simply bus TIAM and move into the next day with increased towncred? I mean, when speaking in hypotheticals it is easy to imagine all sorts of Machiavellian plots that may be at work here - but, logically, what really is the simplest answer? It's that I'm town.

[wavemode]

and the fact that you never thought to check him is still kinda bizarre to me. Like, I get that you thought he may be *some other* scum PR, but I dunno; it's weird to me that you didn't want to check him

Alright, I can understand this sentiment. But that's the decision I made at the time with the information that was available to me. And it netted me a guilty on Seph as I hoped it would, so I don't regret it

Aside, what do you think about the fact that implosion is taking your side and defending you in all this?

Well, implosion is more or less conftown to me at this point simply because if he switched sides, they'd have enough votes to lynch me and it would be a mafia win. So, any comment I make about imp's play at this point is going to be colored by that perspective. That said, there was something that I thought was quite intelligent he wrote today

I feel like wave/seph's arguments at this point are almost entirely meaningless. I think speculation of the form "if wavemode is really a vanilla cop, why didn't he X" is also inherently not going to be that useful because it presumes that he'll have the thought process in question, and different people will view the same game differently from the same role.

These points sort of go back to what I was saying to Seph earlier, which was about the issue of perspective. He's confscum to me, so I could literally go find somewhere he says "lol" and say "see how scummy Seph is, guys? He says 'lol' here just to seem more towny in this situation." And it would be true! That probably is why he said "lol". But that case only makes sense to me because of my perspective, which is that he's confirmed scum. So to me, *everything* he does is just to seem more towny. And assuming Seph were town here, his points against me would have the same inherent problem; the fact that he, in my same situation, would not have made the decisions I made, does not make my decisions wrong, nor does it make them scummy. That's why I said it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to get into a war of words with him; it makes a lot more sense to simply present my result and let people evaluate for themselves if my claim is believable. Obviously, that's now come back to bite me since there's certain decisions I made yesterday that people heavily disagree with. But I still regret none of them. I strongly feel I would probably not be standing here alive with a guilty on Seph if I'd played yesterday any differently, and without that he would use his increased towncred from bussing TIAM to win the game. Probably my one strategic mistake is not crumbing earlier in the game but, again, I didn't initially expect my role to end up being all that important.

Why didn't this mindset apply to this game?

lol I was actually getting pretty aggravated with the players of 207 for lurking so hard. Partially the mod's fault for flaking on the game repeatedly, killing everyone's motivation, but still. So I claimed vig and called for a massclaim and said I'd shoot anyone who didn't participate. Surprise surprise, everyone but Nero claimed VT, meaning Nero was pretty obviously town and scumteam were in the VT claims. Good overall result, since up to that point I probably would have shot Nero.

In any case, that's my rationale behind that post but idk if that answers what you want to know. Probably the thing about, let the scumteam decide who they want to shoot? Keep in mind that I didn't actually make Nero claim his role at that point (he just said "I'm a PR"), nor Mulch, since for various reasons I was reasonably sure they were town and that if they were power roles and had any useful results they would share them. So I allowed WIFOM to work in our favor in that regard. In the end, Nero turned out to be a Tracker and wanted to catch someone commit the kill, but wasn't able to. Meh.

What do you think about this post?

lolSeph. If you actually read through his rhetoric, you'll see half his posts claiming I'm, like, a mafia mastermind with this multi-tiered 5D chess plot going on, then half his posts go like "I can see why town is your specialty" like I made obvious boneheaded mistakes

In any case, besides the obvious problems that this supposed plot takes a bunch of really huge risks considering Seph was saying from the very beginning of day 3 that he thought I was TIAM's partner yet I defended TIAM anyway, AND this plan creates really, really bad associatives if Chip turned out to be an SK (There's an FBI Agent people!!) and shot someone at random, AND there's the ridiculously risky fact that I was defending TIAM *before* we agreed to massclaim, so if I were scum and town had decided against massclaiming (and I would thus have no way of directing the vig shot) I would have just been left with my dick in my hand in the way of a plan... there's also a really basic and obvious problem that I've pointed out before, which is that Serg had claimed VT. As scum I'd have literally zero reason at that point to even attempt to execute such a desperate plan, since Serg was still a strong option to pursue for a lynch.

[wavemode]

So you're arguing that Flubber is a scum-doc and that the team is seph/flubber/two, with Seph being some other scum PR?

Well, yeah, I think so. Why else would implosion not have turned on me by this point?

And it's not far-fetched - Large 206 also had a Gunsmith, and a Mafia Doctor to balance it.

And the interesting point about 207 is that there you argued that everyone needed to tell the truth during massclaim lest you end up in LYLO and someone decides to claim to be a cop with a guilty, which is kinda exactly what you did here.

Bah, I was just giving Nero a hard time. I myself have lied in massclaim in the past to do exactly what he was trying to do there. But keep in mind that that game was *dead*, like seriously dead. Massclaim was the only thing that was going to get anyone to generate any content whatsoever after two mods flaked. When he refused to participate at all, I needed to make perfectly clear that he knew I wasn't bluffing when I said I'd shoot him for not participating (even though I was...). If you read on, once I was reasonably sure he knew I wasn't bluffing, I gave it up and didn't require him to claim, because in my mind there was no way scum in that scenario would fall on their sword like he did, just to prove a point.

[wavemode]

Also, Merry Christmas to the Eastern Standard Timezone

[wavemode]

-seph/flubber: I would be quite shocked if this was the team. The balance would be screwy (this necessitates scum-doc flubber and scum-PR seph; the game you're referencing is a Large). I'm not claiming to have perfect reads, but I don't think my reads are *that* bad in that I'd have to be wrong on literally everyone alive in this game right now not named Serg for this to be the team. Yeah, I don't deny that I definitely could be wrong somewhere .... I just don't think I'm wrong *everywhere*.

Come on, don't get like this and ignore all of the clear evidence here!

I presume you've read Open 703 that I finished recently? You think I won that game because my day 1 reads were perfect? I literally had all four masons in my initial scumreads lol. But we pulled that game back around, because I was willing to re-evaluate. Like, you can't get so rigid on "no way, there's no way every single one of my reads are wrong here." If I had done that in that game we would not have won. Or even Open 694 from a while back, where from where I was standing scum!Egg was probably the towniest player in that game. But I was willing to re-evaluate, and again it won us the game. Actually evaluate the gamestate! Every single thing in this game points to me being town here, and you will throw it away because you can't accept that maybe you aren't seeing things correctly?

God, someday people will wake up and recognize that if wavemode is up at 3 am on Christmas writing wallposts, he's just fucking town lmao. Winning as scum doesn't take all this, just bus your partner and ride it out. When I win as scum I actually get annoyed with how little effort the town puts in to catch me. I just have to lurk most of the time and offer a bit of analysis occasionally and everything goes okay.

If I were scum I'd be voting implosion today and sipping cocoa somewhere, smh

[wavemode]

Or better yet, I'd have voted TIAM yesterday and I wouldn't be in this situation...

[wavemode]

The balance would be screwy

Also, explain this. We have a full vig in a mini

[wavemode]

Or better yet, I'd have voted TIAM yesterday and I wouldn't be in this situation...

Also, explain why I did not do this. Like, you actually have to think I'm 100% retarded to be scum with TIAM here and defend him...

[wavemode]

I dunno. I think the sticking-to-your-guns and not-understanding-what-I'm-not-understanding is actually kinda townie tbh. Like since you claimed, everything has been internally consistent at least. And while I don't fully understand your POV, or why you made the choices you did, you understand it, and the conviction and exasperation of 'why don't you just understand what I'm saying?' coming from you seems real? I don't know if I explained that well.

You see this? This is called seeing the light. Have you ever wondered why I've literally never been lynched when I was town? Because when I'm town, I *bleed* town. You're seeing what rb saw in Mini 1931 when I was wagoned. You're seeing what Transcend saw in Open 694. You're seeing what mozamis saw in Open 703. In every one of those games the scumteam (and bad town) thought they could take me down, but it took an experienced eye to recognize that I really was in it to win it. I really, really need you to be that experienced eye at this point. This is probably the most strenuous game of mafia I've ever played, so please don't let all this effort have been for nothing. I really, really,

really

don't give half of one iota of a shit about my scum record (because it'f fucking easy and winning as scum means nothing...), but as town, I put my heart and soul into it. I feel like I've done everything I possibly can to show you I'm town here and I really need you to see this.

We can start from the beginning. You can start from literally post #1 and explain to me what exactly is so problematic about my ISO that the literally mountains and mountains of evidence that all say "WAVEMODE IS TOWN" are irrelevant, and I will try to explain to you why I made those posts. But I need you to see this.

[wavemode]

And the fact that he's never reconsidered his support of you is honestly a little odd given that it's MYLO?

implosion has considered a lot of things critically if you actually read his posts... like, actually explain this one to me skitter. Flubber's absurd reasoning for

instantly

digging in his heels in opposition to my claim and literally unwaveringly supporting Seph this entire gameday, is not more weird?

[wavemode]

And I feel kinda AtE'd at too :/

To be fair, I've presented pure factual reasoning again and again, and it all points to me being town, but you were still going to lynch me anyway...

Now, there are two problems with this here:

I dunno who Seph's partner is if he's scum. Like I kinda think Wave is town but I can't really make the gamestate make sense to me cohesively if Seph is scum, especially not with Flubber. Like scum!Seph gets out of RVS by seriously wagoning his partner and grilling him for that joke in the beginning, all while arguing with Two about it? Like do all of them get involved there and entengle themselves with that when people were making such a huge deal about it? And some posts of Two's indicate that Flubber is probably not scum with him? And Seph just randomly forgot about Flubber when writing a readslist at some point? And we started day 3 by *both* of them quickvoting TIAM in possible MYLO?

I just don't see a seph/flubber/two team. Like I'm trying to reevluate as you asked, but the entire game just feels *wrong* to me if it's Seph/Flubber. Idk how to say this better than I am right now. Like it just feels wrong and the entire game literally doesn't make sense to me right now if that's the team. I can see like every other pairing more than that right now, to some degree or another. I just don't see this one.

The first is that you're drawing the assumption of this not possibly being the scumteam purely on the basis of an RVS wagon that dissipated quickly (in fact, Seph was the first to unvote) and, honestly, was never really going anywhere in the first place. In other words, if they're scum and were just trying to show distance, it's working on you.

The second is that nothing has technically yet ruled out a Seph-imp team, if you really think about it. If we're convinced of implosion being scum (I'm not, personally, but let's just say for the sake of argument) then choosing to bus Seph once the guilty came out would work in his favor, while it was still uncertain who would side with whom. And suddenly switching sides to vote against me might have raised eyebrows, so he's sticking to his guns. Again, I'm speaking purely hypothetically - I don't really see the scumteam having two goons here, so I don't see scum!imp. But I'm just saying, it's currently highly illogical for you to let your feeling that imp is scum here automatically lead you to believe that the team is necessarily wave-imp, and not any other configuration.

[wavemode]

You do know killing chip doesn't prevent him from killing that night, right? How does theory make sense

[wavemode]

You do know killing chip doesn't prevent him from killing that night, right? How does theory make sense

[wavemode]

Yeah town lost, congrats

[wavemode]

Looking back I'm astounded town flubber could actually justify taking that position

Like, wow

[wavemode]

So it was Goon/Goon/Seph was what?

[wavemode]

No, he's just a goon. They had two goons.