Mini Normal 1963 - List Mod Mafia Game Over


Locked
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #19 (isolation #0) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:43 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Flubbernugget wrote:Not me
VOTE: flubbernugget
Seems like a pretty open and shut case to me.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #25 (isolation #1) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:04 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 20, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 19, Sephiroth wrote:
Flubbernugget wrote:Not me
VOTE: flubbernugget
Seems like a pretty open and shut case to me.
Vote HEM please
I don't see it. Flubber is a better wagon.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #28 (isolation #2) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:36 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 25, Sephiroth wrote:I don't see it. Flubber is a better wagon.
Are you serious about this?[/quote]
That I would rather wagon flubber? Yes. Not sure why we're wagoning HEM tbh.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #29 (isolation #3) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:38 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Sorry, meant this:
In post 27, skitter30 wrote:
In post 25, Sephiroth wrote:I don't see it. Flubber is a better wagon.
Are you serious about this?
That I would rather wagon flubber? Yes. Not sure why we're wagoning HEM tbh.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #33 (isolation #4) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:17 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 32, skitter30 wrote:
In post 29, Sephiroth wrote:Sorry, meant this:
In post 27, skitter30 wrote:
In post 25, Sephiroth wrote:I don't see it. Flubber is a better wagon.
Are you serious about this?
That I would rather wagon flubber? Yes. Not sure why we're wagoning HEM tbh.
I guess what I'm getting at is why do you want to wagon Flubber?

(I'm also not finding the HEM wagon particularly interesting or relevant atm).
He said he wasn't town.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #60 (isolation #5) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:54 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 38, skitter30 wrote:
In post 34, Wossi wrote:Maybe because there's not really any town reason to claim scum?
:facepalm:

There isn't really any scum reason to claim scum?

Why are you and Sephiroth taking that post seriously when it was clearly a joke?
I mean, was it clearly a joke? Maybe. But we're less than 24 hours into Day 1 and if you've noticed Flub hasn't shown up to say anything since. I'm taking it seriously in that its a good enough reason to start a D1 wagon that actually generates discussion. Whether I'm taking it seriously enough to say that I think Flub is scum, obviously not yet. That may change depending on the their next post though. That's kind of the point of an early D1 wagon...see something worth attacking, wagon, see what happens. I think claiming non-town is worth probing, don't you?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #61 (isolation #6) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:56 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 54, Sergtacos wrote:hard claim miller
Just to clarify...are you actually claiming miller?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #63 (isolation #7) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:06 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 62, TwoInAMillion wrote: There's no serious reason to claim scum. This is a normal game and I don't see Jester being a role.
Why are you so keen on shutting down a wagon on the only relatively substantial thing to have happened this game? Sure, maybe claiming scum isn't a good scum move. Its sure as hell not a good town move. I don't see how its beneficial to write it off and ignore it with zero further input from Flub. I mean the dude didn't even vote, just claim non-town and disappear. If that doesn't satisfy the requirement for you to wagon D1, what will? I mean do you want someone to just admit to being scum before we wagon anybody? Oh, wait...
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #65 (isolation #8) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:20 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 64, TwoInAMillion wrote:Because I don't want to see town lynched?

We are a day into the game, there's a lot more left to happen day 1. Why the rush?
Lets be clear here. A wagon is not the same as a lynch. I am not in a rush to lynch. I AM in a rush to start a substantial wagon because it takes us out of the random stage and into the actual game. The longer we're in RVS the longer people can lurk and make excuses like "I have nothing to work with!" to be completely non-committal.

Are you saying you don't want us to wagon anyone? Not sure how its pro-town to just not pressure anyone out of fear of lynching. It takes 7 to lynch, it only takes like 3-4 to constitute a wagon.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #76 (isolation #9) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:27 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 75, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 61, Sephiroth wrote:
In post 54, Sergtacos wrote:hard claim miller
Just to clarify...are you actually claiming miller?
Whats it to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-sDM8ZUgVA
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #77 (isolation #10) » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:41 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Sorry for that. But are you claiming or just joking around?

also
unvote
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #105 (isolation #11) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:51 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Sergtacos wrote: Joking
K. I don't really like that you waited and built the suspense. Adding unnecessary confusion and uncertainty to the dialog is not pro-town. It also feasibly gives you time to see how the town is taking the claim before choosing whether you want to follow through or pull back. VOTE: sergtacos
In post 84, Chip Butty wrote: In fact, let's increase the heat a little:

VOTE: Flubber
Sergtacos wrote: but hey lets sheep. VOTE: Flubbernugget
Are we serious right now? Where was this yesterday? What changed for you two?

I will note that I don't really like the hardline 'claimed scum must be scum' mentality. Flub seems to be a generally sarcastic/jokey type guy and I'm willing to believe it was a joke and move on for now. Refusing to move on when the game has moved far beyond that page 1 post seems lazy and anti-town, especially after ignoring the post initially. Chip butty and Serg look real bad in their recent jump over. While I don't like it in HEM or Wossi either they seem genuine and consistent in their behavior towards Flub unlike the two above. I also REALLY don't like from twoinamillion. The reasoning seems manufactured and they had JUST finished trying to shut down any discussion involving Flub's claim. Seems a little sketchy to interpret Flub's post that way and turn it into a vote.
humaneatingmonkey wrote:Guys, how do you classify bullshit vote reasons? Scum or town?
Are you asking whether giving bullshit reasons is a town or scum tell? Seems kind of like a false dichotomy to me. A bullshit vote is a bullshit vote, but you have to look past the given reasoning to see if its a scummy vote or not. Not to mention my idea of 'bullshit' reasons is very dependent on the player and game situation. How would you answer this question?
Lalendra wrote:I really hope Sephiroth isn't scum because I love the synchronicity of the avatar, location and signature. And because I just generally love Sephiroth. I want to FoS you for unnecessary AtE.
:lol: You can't imagine how happy I was to learn that the username was not taken haha. Sephiroth has got to be one of the best videogame villains ever.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #155 (isolation #12) » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:07 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 126, Sergtacos wrote: First off I don't like Seph's tone's tone about building the suspsence? idk sounds scum like if you ask me because like i thought it was an obvious joke or fake claim in my opinion and Seph is sounding like she's trying to make it sound bad by force, thats what i mean by sounding scum.

Then skitter posted asking why i did that, same thing. Scum buddy post or innocent post? Not sure, but to me seem like 75% scum buddy and 25% innocent but then I had been in a scum game with skitter when we were scum buddies she was a hard lurker so this is very different. Meh, the other way i guess.
If it was an obvious joke then you probably wouldn't have had 2 people directly ask for clarification, and several other people independently discuss whether it was a fake claim or not. I think it was pretty objectively NOT an obvious joke. And even if it were, you avoided a direct question when you had the chance to set the record straight. Why the hell did you think I was asking? Just for fun? You made the game state confusing then you refused to clarify the situation as the town questioned/speculated about what you meant. That to me is anti-town and worthy of a vote. Your little extra paragraph at the end is pretty suspect. You basically are speculating that because 2 (among a couple others) who were not clear about the sincerity of the claim are scum because...they weren't clear about your claim? Is it possible that just maybe, it was genuinely plausible that your actions were confusing and merited clarification? You're OMGUSing pretty hard over 1 vote...
In post 134, wavemode wrote:Also, as I said, 1st and 2nd to claim town are probably town
This seems like some wildly unfounded conjecture to me. You've heard the term WIFOM, right?
In post 138, wavemode wrote: First is incredibly reachy and the quote is taken out of context

Second is similarly reading too deep and drawing a conclusion from nothing
I disagree on the first quote but I agree that the second is reachy. As has been discussed, you could argue that 68 from tiam was also not scumhunting, but looking for an excuse to park a vote, with reachy reasoning. I think its even worse since tiam first discouraged the wagon and then hopped on for a manufactured and thin reason. What are your thoughts on tiam?




There are a lot of things happening right now and I'm at work so I'll cut this post here and post some more tonight.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #175 (isolation #13) » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Ugh can we move on from the 'more likely to lynch' argument? I'm not really sure how a misunderstanding in methodology is relevant to finding scum. If someone has a good answer to that question please illuminate me.



In post 160, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 105, Sephiroth wrote:
Sergtacos wrote: Joking
K. I don't really like that you waited and built the suspense. Adding unnecessary confusion and uncertainty to the dialog is not pro-town. It also feasibly gives you time to see how the town is taking the claim before choosing whether you want to follow through or pull back. VOTE: sergtacos
Let me break it down. You made a claim, I didn't understand whether it was serious or not and I asked you if it was serious. You chose not to answer my question. I think this is suspicious for these two reasons, let me know if this is still unclear:

a)
because you refused to clarify. Maybe you thought you were obviously making a second joke, but to me it was unclear. The fact that Dani also questioned it AFTER your initial 'What is is to you' post should make it clear that my misunderstanding is not unreasonable. Choosing not to answer straight away is choosing to extend the amount of time that we don't know the nature of your claim. I think that choosing to withhold that basic information is anti-town behavior.

b)
because the choice not to answer immediately gives you the opportunity to delay your potential decision about whether to say the claim is serious or say that you were joking all along. AKA your second post seemed like filler while you made up your mind.
In post 126, Sergtacos wrote: In my perspective it was an obvious joke. So you can't really put that on me because its what I see. What direct question? Yeah I asked what is it to you? That I believed was an obvious joke but lmfao u got butt hurt over that? Not sure if you're town because of that or you're scum trying to get a wagon on me all because I made a joke lmao. And the rest i dont understand.
The direct question was me asking you whether you were joking. I wouldn't say I'm butt hurt so much as curious why you were choosing to be non-cooperative.

Anyhow I'm satisfied with your explanation.
UNVOTE:
In post 161, TwoInAMillion wrote:I'm not liking Sergtacos pushing the claiming scum thing...

VOTE: SergtacosVOTE:
I'm actually not doing that either. I was pushing that it was anti-town to not answer a direct question about his miller claim.




I dunno where I'm at at this point. Danyboy and Wavemode are town. Implosion wickedest and Flub have been adding to the discussion in a beneficial way and I don't see anything to warrant suspicion.. Serg is probably town despite his omgus on me. Language barrier explains some things.

I need to read some twoinamillion games to get a read. Multiple people saying this is playstyle but he seems pretty scummy to me. Its just hard to imagine 68 coming from town. It was probably the biggest reach of the whole game. And then not even knowing the facts of what I'm pushing against Serg...

Lalendra is the definition of coasting. Contributions have been rare and narrow in focus. What are your thoughts on the last couple pages? It would be dope if HEM and Chip Butty showed up as well.

For now I'm content to
vote: lalendra
since both HEM are Chip Butty said they aren't around. Lalendra lets hear some thoughts on the main wagons of the day.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #202 (isolation #14) » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:24 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Man is it just me or do both wagons feel exactly like early D1 wagons that stuck around too long? I don't think anyone has given a convincing reason to lynch either wossi or flub.

Meanwhile Serg got jealous of lalendra and wanted my vote back. Surprised only Dany and Skitter have mentioned that raw L-1 vote. I dunno to me it seems like a much better wagon might be Mr. Tacos over here.

VOTE: serg




So I read a little bit of 1954. Up to about where tiam gets lynched/wickedest gets NKed. I might read some more later.

First of all, you guys all play a lot more loose than I'm used to. Its a refreshing change of pace. And I guess given that context it might have been more obvious that both flub and serg were joking in their posts. Oh well.

All the crossover players are behaving
roughly
like they did in 1954. I agree with wickedest that tiam seems to be misreading a lot more here than there but I'm not sure yet what that tells me. Any number of reasons to be disengaged with a game but I still lean scummy. Skitter and Wickedest seem to be playing the most similar game so I get a town lean from them based on that.
TwoInAMillion wrote:I thought the bad push on flub was more anti-town than then flub's idiot posting.
I don't think it was a bad push considering how early in the game that was. I dropped it when the game moved past the early stage as it only really held significance in the early game.

And you take that back about Flub, he is a gentleman and a scholar.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #297 (isolation #15) » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:12 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 210, skitter30 wrote: This is how I feel about them too, and to a certain, but lesser extent, you and Seph as well. You're all pushing the right things imo, and taking reasonable positions. I'm just slightly concerned that I'm biased towards townreading all four of you because you're pushibg things that I agree with.
Honestly I feel like this hits the nail on the head for me and its what's bothering me about this game. A lot of my reads basically look like "acting rationally" or "not acting rationally".

With Wossi to me it seems the wagon is built on him holding a position that happens to be unpopular (lynch all liars) with this group of players more than anything particularly scummy that they've done. I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief. 41 just seems like he's making a joke about his random vote and its been read into like crazy. This isn't page
Its an older playstyle sir, but it checks out.
I mean I could respond to each specific post thats called out if people want but suffice it to say I just don't see what others seem to see in Wossi.
In post 205, implosion wrote:
Sephiroth wrote:Meanwhile Serg got jealous of lalendra and wanted my vote back. Surprised only Dany and Skitter have mentioned that raw L-1 vote. I dunno to me it seems like a much better wagon might be Mr. Tacos over here.
I mean, the reasoning here is obvious but. Do you think serg-scum is likely to put himself out there with the naked L-1 vote? I don't think serg-scum would see the mixed reaction he got to the miller fiasco and decide "hm, what I need now is to enshrine myself as the center of attention."
I haven't found serg's play to be especially rational throughout. I think this line of argument winds up being fairly wifom but for the record I don't think serg-scum was too worried about the consequences. They seem to have disappeared so perhaps they didn't expect this sort of reaction at all. Dude literally hasn't said a thing. Scum or town, that doesn't sound like heady play to me.

As an example of how this is incredibly WIFOM, here's you calling out wavemode for essentially the exact same thing you're employing here
In post 169, implosion wrote: Second is this:
All the nonsense Wossi is accused of, scum tend to specifically try to avoid doing, especially in the very early game... to avoid this exact situation he is in now
which is just like the most basic kind of too scummy to be scum argument.
How is this at all different than your defense of serg above? Bonus points: You use a similar line of reasoning in defense of serg way back in 83 as well. Its funny how this argument seems to consistently apply to taco but but if wavemode uses it to defend wossi its a 'basic too scummy to be scum' argument.



In post 211, Flubbernugget wrote: Sephiroph, what post are you arguing with tacos about? It's probably one of the early ones.
I think its pretty clear if you read my posts that I'm talking about his miller claim and subsequent failure to clarify if it was real or a joke.




Lalendra's vote might be the scummiest thing to happen so far. I dont think anyone thought that wagon was leading to an imminent lynch, so dropping the L-1 after it had just been criticized from Serg and asking for a claim no less looks really scummy to me. Lalendra basically just decided for all of us that it was time to end the day with a wossi lynch. Either her or Serg should be the ones being wagoned. I'm honestly going to be throwing my vote to whichever one of those two others are willing to vote. Let's make it happen.
unvote: serg, vote: lalendra


Come on guys let's have a real wagon!
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #298 (isolation #16) » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:14 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Wow I fucked up that first paragraph royally. Here's what was meant:
In post 297, Sephiroth wrote:
In post 210, skitter30 wrote: With Wossi to me it seems the wagon is built on him holding a position that happens to be unpopular (lynch all liars) with this group of players more than anything particularly scummy that they've done. I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief.
Its an older playstyle sir, but it checks out.
41 just seems like he's making a joke about his random vote and its been read into like crazy. This isn't page 2 anymore. I mean I could respond to each specific post thats called out if people want but suffice it to say I just don't see what others seem to see in Wossi.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #299 (isolation #17) » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:15 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

OMG.

With Wossi to me it seems the wagon is built on him holding a position that happens to be unpopular (lynch all liars) with this group of players more than anything particularly scummy that they've done. I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief. Its an older playstyle sir, but it checks out. 41 just seems like he's making a joke about his random vote and its been read into like crazy. This isn't page 2 anymore. I mean I could respond to each specific post thats called out if people want but suffice it to say I just don't see what others seem to see in Wossi.

I suck I'm sorry this is the real deal. No Skitter did not say the above.

I'm going to sleep now.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #313 (isolation #18) » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:58 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 305, skitter30 wrote:
In post 297, Sephiroth wrote:I think this line of argument winds up being fairly wifom but for the record I don't think serg-scum was too worried about the consequences.
I was scum with Serg in 1946. He's a lot more self-aware than he might appear to be, and was actually pretty cognizant about the reactions his actions might instigate; he'd talk to his partners a lot and run things by us to make sure he didn't look scummy. (ie 'should I lolhammer?'). If anything, I think that town!taco is less worried about how he looks to others. He also, like, tried to look more invested, even as he played up the stoner dude persona. Like he tried to look like he was contributing and scumhunting, but played up being high so that people wouldn't take what he was saying *that* seriously.
I'll give that game a once over and see if I agree with your take. I'm content to leave my vote on lalendra and wait on serg for the timebeing.
In post 305, skitter30 wrote:
In post 299, Sephiroth wrote:With Wossi to me it seems the wagon is built on him holding a position that happens to be unpopular (lynch all liars) with this group of players more than anything particularly scummy that they've done. I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief. Its an older playstyle sir, but it checks out. 41 just seems like he's making a joke about his random vote and its been read into like crazy. This isn't page 2 anymore. I mean I could respond to each specific post thats called out if people want but suffice it to say I just don't see what others seem to see in Wossi.
I think he's done several sketchy things, including his push on Flubber which imo was kinda delayed until after you pushed it since it looks like he specifically waited to see how people would react if it got pushed. His response to me pointing this was was to attribute the delay to being excited for finding scum so early, but I don't think I'd said anything AI by that point. He's also admitted to making 'meaningless accusations', and I don't understand the town motivation in that.
I mean I'm not trying to be obstinate here but I just don't see why any player would be that caught up in whether something seemed scummy to push near the top of page 2. Like I completely understand what you're saying and it would be a bigger deal to me if Wossi pulled that move in relation to a serious, potentially lynching wagon. But how is this move not explained by them just wanting to push someone in the early game, and joining in on a potential wagon? Early wagons are good. Joining one is a null tell in my book. I mean hell even if this happened page 4 or 5 I might see your point but hell man no scum is sitting there thinking they will get a mislynch from putting the second vote on someone on page 2.

I think that your interpretation of the meaningless accusations thing is just flat wrong. Again, I point to the fact that it was early PAGE TWO. Accusations on page 2 are almost by definition meaningless and I don't understand why admitting that he was just poking things for fun on page two is possibly a scum tell. Its fine that you don't see town motivation but there's no scum motivation either. I would also 100% say that my accusations within the first two pages were meaningless.
In post 305, skitter30 wrote: I'm not sure why you keep on dismissing the wossi wagon when there have been several legitimate points raised against him that he's failed to respond to. I don't think we should move past it just because it's 10 pages later when he's been absent from the thread and hasn't really reacted to it yet.
I really don't see any of the points as legitimate. I see them as pointing at normal page 2 posts and painting an elaborate backstory that suggests their scum. It doesn't make sense to me. The argument is that he hesitated than followed someone else onto a wagon on PAGE 2. Then that he referred to accusations he made
on page 2
as meaningless accusations, when thats exactly what accusations are on page 2. Since then he's lurked, which I don't like, but a lurker does not a scum make. And given I don't really buy the core of the arguments against him I'm less worried about him failing to answer those accusations. Its almost laughable that he's gotten to L-1 TWICE based on such a weak set of points.




And I think that given all that its a lot more sketch that people are willing to drop L-1 votes and demand claims. Its like you're living in RVS and refuse to accept that scummy players and scummy actions are happening RIGHT NOW.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #364 (isolation #19) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:43 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Sorry I have been absent. I'm moving apartment this weekend and failed to notify of V/LA. I will catch up and post later tonight, though a brief scan tells me that not too much has changed since my last post.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #561 (isolation #20) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:39 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Holy activity batman, we have ourselves a game!

Welcome Mulch.

Mixed feelings from the beginning tbh. Don't like the opening comment about scum PT, but like that you read wossi town and suspect those that piled on the wossi wagon. I really don't like when its revealed that you haven't read the game and I don't like that you drop your serg scum read off of a single action. Is it that easy to exploit you reliance on meta? You also seem to talk up meta a lot for someone who hasn't done the homework to have proper meta reads. I guess you did say low effort?

I also agree with skitter about trying to policy lynch. Coupled with not even reading the game it comes off pretty sketch. I really don't see how you can say that they're not policy lynches that you're pusing. Like sure its PoE like you say but PoE is itself a type of
policy
used to inform lynches. A traditional lynch is one when you're trying to lynch the scum. Saying "I think these people are town, lets lynch the unknown pile" is lynching based on a policy rather than scumhunting.
In post 441, Mulch wrote:Mulch tiam wossi Skitter flubber wicked
Don't really want to lynch Dany today, neither Implosion, and I sorta believe you now that serge is town Skitter

Whose left

Chip lalendra? Who else?
You forgot me, apparently can't be bothered to read my posts still. Honestly they're really not that bad in length. If you think THOSE were wall of text hooo boy.
In post 451, Mulch wrote:Name one game you've had good day 1 reads


One game
This is anti town as fuck. I dunno how you can justify trying to tell a player not to trust themselves and just listen to what you say when you literally can't be bothered to read the game.

Flubber and Skitter basically say it all. I'd like to add that this whole business around falsifying Wossi's meta is hella sketch. Also misrepresenting their use of policy to inform all their lynch targets, while simultaneously failing to even properly execute the policy they claim to be using since they
completely forgot that I exist in this game
.
In post 506, Wickedestjr wrote:
In post 297, Sephiroth wrote:Lalendra's vote might be the scummiest thing to happen so far. I dont think anyone thought that wagon was leading to an imminent lynch, so dropping the L-1 after it had just been criticized from Serg and asking for a claim no less looks really scummy to me. Lalendra basically just decided for all of us that it was time to end the day with a wossi lynch.
Either her or Serg should be the ones being wagoned. I'm honestly going to be throwing my vote to whichever one of those two others are willing to vote.
Let's make it happen.
unvote: serg, vote: lalendra


Come on guys let's have a real wagon!
Do you have a preference between Lalendra and Sergtacos? Do you think they could both be scum?
The more Serg posts the more he seems like he's on pure random mode at this point. Still lean scummy but its not a strong read. I still find Lalendra very sketch for the general lack of effort in her scumhunting and premature call for a claim on Wossi. She also continues to lurk in plain sight and has managed to avoid commenting on much of the goings ons of the game which is extremely suspicious to me. So I prefer Lalendra of those two.

But to be honest right now I think my vote is best used on Mulch. -2 seems like a good place for them right now.
unvote, vote: Mulch

In post 535, Sergtacos wrote:why are people voting for mulch?
ReAd ThE tHrEaD
In post 542, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 539, Wossi wrote:
In post 521, TwoInAMillion wrote:
unvote


I think both Wossi and Mulch are scummy, but I definately don't want day to end early and Wossi's vote on Mulch makes me unsure on which is scummier.
Umm, he has imaginary meta on me from a game that doesnt exist? That's not a good reason to vote?
why would scum much do that? he would be too careful to NOT do that. i can see it from a town perspective from mulch by doing that.
Do you not see how low effort he is playing? Did you not see him say that he was going to be low effort? He is playing exactly like low effort scum...Coming in opposing the big stupid wagon and proposing we lynch on policy (even trying to create a town block) without any real effort to read the game, then going on (falsely) about how meta makes all his reads make sense. He is so clearly scum it hurts.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #562 (isolation #21) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:44 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 373, Mulch wrote:From briefly reading the game I'm pretty sure idany is town but wrong, and that wossi is town. My first look is going to be at the people scumreading wossi for a long time, specifically those that have vote parked them
Wossi wagon at the time:
Wossi (5)
- implosion, Flubbernugget, skitter30, Sergtacos, Lalendra
In post 441, Mulch wrote:Yeah I'm confident adding wicked based on meta


Mulch tiam wossi Skitter flubber wicked
Don't really want to lynch Dany today, neither Implosion, and I sorta believe you now that serge is town Skitter
Way to clear or exempt from todays lynch pretty much every one of those players...the only one on that wagon you suspect is Lalendra who did NOT park their vote at all, and you don't give any reason why Lalendra is scum.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #563 (isolation #22) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:50 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Well okay I guess she did kind of park her vote, I take that point back.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #576 (isolation #23) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:30 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 575, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 511, Wickedestjr wrote:
In post 504, Flubbernugget wrote:Wicked, I don't like that the best you can come up with to vote wossi is looking all the way back to the beginning of the thread.
I'm not going to give him a free pass for something just because it happened early on. His explanation doesn't make sense. After what page number can I look for reasons to vote someone?
It's not about page numbers. It's that scum does more than one scummy thing, and giving early game reasoning the benefit of the doubt is usually a good thing to do.
Say it louder for the people in the back!
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #584 (isolation #24) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:38 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Wickedestjr wrote:
@skitter:
One of your reasons for voting Mulch was because he seemed to be looking for mis-lynches that don't have much pushback. Did he do this when you were partners with him? Do you think he, as scum, is incapable of going after more difficult targets?
Its not just that. Its that he tried to make several policy lynches instead of actually reading players and trying to find scum tells. He's taking the path of least resistance in search of lynching pretty much whoever. Then when Skitter calls him on that and the see-through nature of his reads, he completely backtracks, lies that PoE is not a form of policy lynching, and basically just adopts whatever Skitter's opinion is on any reads that he disagreed with. Hes literally just trying to find any lynch that people will buy into and lied/backtracked when he got caught. I really don't see how ability to go after difficult targets enters into it. Going for easy lynches is the oldest scum tell in the book, why would he want to go for 'more difficult targets' and why would his unwillingness to do so be anything other than a scum tell?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #585 (isolation #25) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:38 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 581, Wickedestjr wrote:I disagree. Scum can certainly make mistakes in the early game, so to ignore it just because it happened early on is not reasonable. How can I give him the benefit of the doubt when he literally admitted to 'contradicting himself and making errors of judgment' ? I can't give that a free pass and am trying to figure out why he started off the game that way.
There's a difference between giving him a free pass and tunneling on them and refusing to look at other things going on. If you think that something he did on page two is a scum tell, good for you but I don't see how its possibly a big enough tell to be your primary focus. It just seems lazy given how far into the game we are, especially since its at best a very small tell more realistically (imo) completely null.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #594 (isolation #26) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:17 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 593, Sergtacos wrote:VOTE: skitter
not anymore
OMG I hate playing with you.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #595 (isolation #27) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:18 am

Post by Sephiroth »

It seems a lot to me like you're just trolling the game at this point. I guess if your idea of playing is literally doing things at complete random, Skitters actual attempts to find scum must seem pretty 'tryhard'.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #601 (isolation #28) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:53 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Mulch mysteriously goes from scum read to town read on serg. Serg starts sheeping him without question. Hmmm.....
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #606 (isolation #29) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:04 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Lalendra wrote:
In post 588, skitter30 wrote:I think as scum he is *very* capable of going after harder targets. He's capable of doing that as town too. I don't know why he's going after the easy pushes here. This doesn't exactly match his scum game, but this is sooooo far off from how he plays town that I'm having a really hard time seeing town!Mulch here.
He did say right off the bat that it was going to be low-effort from him, so I would think that going after "easy pushes" could potentially correlate with that. But without using meta (I try not to because it can be so easily manipulated, especially when people start pointing out someone's meta, and also because my posting/playing style pretty much always has me pegged as scum when I never am), the way he was trying to parse the game at first, the honesty about not having fully caught up, the indecision about his reads, etc. really does give me a very town vibe.
P-edit: It didn't seem mysterious to me, he did explain why his read changed.
You mean the post where he sets himself up to get away with not engaging with the game in any sort of meaningful way? Is it really that easy to get away with completely anti-town play for you? Also I meant mysterious mostly in the sense that he claims to have a strong meta read on Serg and then completely drops it for a single post. If I'm scum!serg here its like I hit the jackpot. Just do something incredibly obviously scummy and suddenly I'm town. Is today opposite day or something?

"Hey guys I'm just gonna not put any effort in this game, cool? Okay let's lynch all these guys because I decided that all the other people are town for literally no reason (but forgot to even mention some players) and oh btw Serg is totally scum based on the sum of his behavior and my expansive meta on him *wink wink*. Oh whats that you say, you town read Serg because of one post out of his many, that is equally as random and erratic as literally everything else hes done? Oh okay he must be town then my bad I accidentally got it completely wrong. BTW skitter, mind telling me your other reads so I can change mine to match?"
^^ super town play above ^^
In post 600, skitter30 wrote: Preflips are bad yada yada yada, but I doubt Mulch and serg are scum together. (scum!mulch decides to enter the game and hardbus his partner?)
What part of starting out scumreading then flipping to townreading with no resistance comes across as hardbussing? Seems like he came in 'bussing' and then took the first out.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #608 (isolation #30) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:07 am

Post by Sephiroth »

To be fair I don't necessarily think Mulch and Serg are partners but I'm about 75% sure mulch is scum and Serg is literally just trolling. But I don't think its fair to completely dismiss the possibility given how easily Mulch abandoned his push on Serg...
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #612 (isolation #31) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:15 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 610, Mulch wrote:Seph is town BTW
So do you have a reason or did I miss Skitter post something to this effect?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #616 (isolation #32) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:30 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 614, Mulch wrote:
In post 613, Mulch wrote:Ur classic bad at the game awful scum
Town*
Thats pretty funny considering how poorly you've played your intro to this game. From either alignment, you've completely screwed yourself over aside from gaining a following of loyal town idiots (chip and serg). You may be convincing to those who aren't paying attention but to anyone who is you've completely destroyed any semblance of credibility. Which makes the sense of superiority all the more amusing to me.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #617 (isolation #33) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Eh I guess Serg isn't really listening to you so much as continuing to roll the die and do whatever comes up. So really just chip following your coat tails.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #619 (isolation #34) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:43 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 520, Mulch wrote:Welp
I PoEd the game and are being mislynched by my townreads
Color me impressed.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #620 (isolation #35) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:44 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Plus I scum read Lalendra also so maybe you should try reading...
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #622 (isolation #36) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:49 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 621, Mulch wrote:
In post 620, Sephiroth wrote:Plus I scum read Lalendra also so maybe you should try reading...
Your voting town and I'm voting scum


Lmao

You are worse
Incorrect. Its more likely we are both voting scum and you are desperately attempting to distance by planting your vote on your partner.

As for worse, I'm content to let you think whatever you want. Its like, when a 4 year old tells you they're the fastest runner in the world, you don't try to explain that they're not. You just nod your head and agree. They don't know any better so why argue the point?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #625 (isolation #37) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:58 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 623, Chip Butty wrote: What the fuck drugs are you on, moron?
The kind that made me read 611 as you. I apologize. This just makes the whole Serg + Mulch thing even weirder to me.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #627 (isolation #38) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:13 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 626, skitter30 wrote: Because for scum!mulch to have come into the game deciding to 'bus' tacos and take the first out, he'd have to have known that someone would have provided that out. We all know he hasn't read the game, so he wouldn't have known there was some resistance to a tacos lynch already. He certainly would not have expected it from me. If anything, his entrance on tacos reads to me like he came in blind and thought that was the path to least resistance for a lynch.
You may be right, and as I mentioned earlier I don't feel strongly that they are partners. What I am saying is that I don't think a mulch scum flip makes serg more likely to be town.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #638 (isolation #39) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:52 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 637, wavemode wrote: Because to me it looks a lot like scum who knows that Chip is town and is trying to show reluctance to the wagon. Why would town serg consider me pressuring chip at that point to be a bad thing?
Thats one interpretation but I also see how Serg can be pro Chip wagon/more chip pressure while still questioning those that jump on board.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #658 (isolation #40) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:50 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 648, Lalendra wrote:@Seph/Mulch - If you get me lynched, when I flip town, who are you going to look at next, and why?
My scum reads are Mulch and you, followed by serg. Still can't decide what to make of Sergs seemingly random play. I get bad vibes from wavemode and wicked. I need to reread Chip's post explosion tonight to get a better sense but I'm happy to see them post more. Implosion needs to post more. They've done a better job engaging with the game than you have, but are still doing some lurking in plain sight. Who the hell knows with tiam. The meta suggests to me that theyre scum but I'd rather lynch one of my stronger reads since most people seem to read that meta the opposite way. I read Dany Skitter and Flub as town and I don't think you being town has significant impact on how I read those players.

I'm not sure what you flipping town would do to my reads. I don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm as I usually start to look at that more closely at the start of D2. I feel the least confident in my reads on [wavemode wicked chip serg tiam and implosion] so those are the the players I'd want to probe a bit tomorrow.
Lalendra wrote:I do still believe that Mulch/Serg are town though. So is flub. Scum is in chip/dany/tiam/wossi. The rest are null for me at the moment.
Care to explain? Surely you don't read Mulch town based on your logic in 580 alone....
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #672 (isolation #41) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:48 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 602, Lalendra wrote:
In post 588, skitter30 wrote:I think as scum he is *very* capable of going after harder targets. He's capable of doing that as town too. I don't know why he's going after the easy pushes here. This doesn't exactly match his scum game, but this is sooooo far off from how he plays town that I'm having a really hard time seeing town!Mulch here.
He did say right off the bat that it was going to be low-effort from him, so I would think that going after "easy pushes" could potentially correlate with that. But without using meta (I try not to because it can be so easily manipulated, especially when people start pointing out someone's meta, and also because my posting/playing style pretty much always has me pegged as scum when I never am), the way he was trying to parse the game at first, the honesty about not having fully caught up, the indecision about his reads, etc. really does give me a very town vibe.
P-edit: It didn't seem mysterious to me, he did explain why his read changed.
I have no idea in what universe the stuff you cite here could give a town vibe. Like if someone does a bunch of scummy shit and then is like 'hey guys I'm gonna do all this scummy shit' suddenly you think they're town because they're being honest about how they're going to do scummy shit?
Lalendra wrote: If the three of us are scum then I am doing the absolute most obvious buddying and shit-tastic scum play ever.
Why does me scumreading the three of you necessitate that all three of you are scum together? I'm not going to delude myself into thinking everyone I have a scum read on D1 = the scum team. That would be silly. It just means I independently find each of you to be the scummiest in the game. I stated as much in my previous post to you:
In post 658, Sephiroth wrote:I don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm as I usually start to look at that more closely at the start of D2.
Why are you dedicating so much time to contradicting the possibility of yall being scum together, when that is not only NOT a point I'm making but a point that I've explicitly said that I'm not making, directly to you?



In post 669, Lalendra wrote: I don't believe that he is town based on the logic put forth in a post where I literally declared him locktown? Your meter is slipping from green to red for me...
Are you purposefully misunderstanding me here? I'm not doubting that 580 is you voicing your town read nor did I ever imply that you weren't doing that in 580. The point of that post is pretty clearly to ask for ADDITIONAL reasons that you are ready to town-lock Mulch, because I don't think the logic in 580 is anywhere near sufficient for a town read and especially not a town lock. Thats why it says 'based on 580 alone'. Its a quesiton, which you answered. And now I have responded with why I don't like the additional reasons from your answer. This is how mafia works, back and forth discussion. How is asking you for a better explanation of your reads in any way shape or form manufacturing tells, or a misrep? For christ's sake it was a
question
to clarify what your posts meant, the exact opposite of representing your stance in any way.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #673 (isolation #42) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:00 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 671, Lalendra wrote:Not to mention that it would be fairly obvious bussing if BOTH of my scumbuddies were on my wagon. That, combined with the fact that I am so confident that they are town DESPITE the fact that they are voting me, should be all the evidence you need.
This is about 10000 times more of a misrep of my stance than anything I said about you lmao. This is literally only an argument against my reads all being scum
together
, which is not my stance at all. And again, I explicitly told you that I don't think too much of associations until start of D2. Since no alignments are known its fairly useless to as a basis of reads on the first day, imo.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #694 (isolation #43) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:55 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 689, Wickedestjr wrote: *IIRC he didn't try making
several
policy lynches. His vote for Chip came along with the 'I think he's useless as town too', but that wasn't his primary reason for voting Chip.
It is just false that wasn't his primary reason to vote chip. He explicitly states in 386 that he can't read chip but feels hes a negative value. He also wanted to lynch a lurker immediately after he spontaneously changed off of his first 'read', and later singled out flubber as the person we should lynch for lurking. So let's call that what, 2.5 maybe?
In post 689, Wickedestjr wrote: *After rereading, I don't really even see how he's pushing easy targets or taking the path of least resistance. The first two votes that he cast were for people that didn't have any other votes at the time.
I'll give you that point but given how flippantly he was voting and then changing reds initially I don't really see that as particularly vindicating. Not to mention, despite giving a town read to both of the leading wagons, he very quickly reverses his take on Lalendra and votes her. I think it was pretty obvious that the Wossi wagon was losing steam at that point and that Lalendra was the hot new shit. To me he sure seemed easily convinced to vote Lalendra after initially saying he didn't see the scum read.
In post 689, Wickedestjr wrote: *If he was just trying to find any easy vote, then why wouldn't he have just joined the Wossi or Lalendra bandwagons?
But he did join the Lalendra wagon. He just made a big show of first reading her town, then being convinced that he was 'giving her a pass too easy' then she was 'lock scum' then all the sudden to not scum reading anyone now that lalendra is losing steam. Definition of going with the flow.
In post 689, Wickedestjr wrote: *Policy lynching and PoE are two very different things, so that point is a big stretch. Fwiw, I think PoE is a perfectly valid method for scum hunting even though it's hard using that to sway people.
Okay so I'm sorry but I just flat out agree with you. Maybe this is more of a semantics argument but to me PoE is most definitely a form of policy lynching. I also 1000% disagree that its a valid method (and maybe this is my time away from the site showing). Its basically an excuse to say I don't have reasons to lynch these people but we're gonna lynch them anyways because I have less of a read. To me thats lynching anyone you can't get a read on, which is certainly a policy in my book. But I'm willing to concede this point, I don't think that this changes the fact that he went for two policy lynches right off the bat and then later lied and claimed they were PoE inspired lynches.
In post 689, Wickedestjr wrote: *I don't see the benefit for him, as scum, to just repeatedly change his mind and follow skitter's opinions. I feel like this behavior can be attributed to the low effort that he put into his initial reads. skitter changed his mind by showing posts that he hadn't seen.
Its called sheeping the most obvious town and its not a new thing. I don't think you can rightly say someones mind was changed when they literally didnt make up their mind in the first place...they didn't read the game thread. ALL the posts were ones they hadn't seen.
In post 689, Wickedestjr wrote: I feel like the 'going after easy targets' scum tell applies more to inexperienced scum. If it's the oldest scum tell in the book, then I would think scum would stop doing it. If Mulch had a history of playing this way as scum, then this would interest me much more - that's why I asked the question. However, if this isn't even how he plays as scum, then I'm not really convinced. --> I think that, regardless of his alignment, he is putting very little effort into this game. I just don't see how people are so sure that he is lazy scum vs. lazy town.
I think that going for easy targets can apply to both inexperienced scum and
lazy
scum. I don't see lazy town coming in here and trying to push some half baked policy lynches and reversing their read on the most popular trendy wagon at the drop of a dime. I
do
see lazy scum dismissing the two big wagons and then slipping onto the easy one once the townie hes sheeping gives him the easy in.

There's also the fact that he lied about any of his lynches being policy by claiming that they were all determined by PoE, but ignoring the fact that he proposed both lynches before he mentioned PoE at all. Lynching lurkers and someone you consider anti town but not scummy are demonstrably not the same as PoE.
In post 688, Wickedestjr wrote: If I am 'tunneling on Wossi and refusing to look at other things going on', then
please
tell me what I'm refusing to look at that I should be looking at because I think I've only devoted a handful of my 30+ posts to him.
By my count about 12 (give or take) of your posts either directly address Wossi, defend your read on Wossi, or attack someone elses reasons for disagreeing with your Wossi read. You have posted 36 times and at the time I made that post you had made closer to 30, meaning almost half or your posts were focused around Wossi. I take it back that you were tunneling since you do poke and prod at other people but I stand by my belief that its lazy and somewhat hard to believe that you found nothing better to focus your scumhunting on than some RVS weirdness.

And for someone who took 28 pages to let go of that waffling you suddenly have very high standards for reading someone scum, wrt not seeing the Mulch case.


For someone who essentially tunneled Wossi for 26 pages based on a bit of waffling in the RVS stage (which you now
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #695 (isolation #44) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 694, Sephiroth wrote:
In post 689, Wickedestjr wrote: *After rereading, I don't really even see how he's pushing easy targets or taking the path of least resistance. The first two votes that he cast were for people that didn't have any other votes at the time.
I'll give you that point but given how flippantly he was voting and then changing reds initially I don't really see that as particularly vindicating. Not to mention, despite giving a town read to both of the leading wagons, he very quickly reverses his take on Lalendra and votes her. I think it was pretty obvious that the Wossi wagon was losing steam at that point and that Lalendra was the hot new shit. To me he sure seemed easily convinced to vote Lalendra after initially saying he didn't see the scum read.
To elaborate on this it seems like he was testing the waters to find the easiest way to flow.

Apologies for the bit of cruft at the end of my previous post. I'm bad at editing my posts down. But to be fair 26 is the accurate number, not 28.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #696 (isolation #45) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:09 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Oh lol I also said I flat out agree with you about PoE being policy...I of course meant flat out *disagree with you.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #705 (isolation #46) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:23 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 704, Lalendra wrote: In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??
In the world where there is a difference between saying "These are my three scum reads" and saying "These three people are 100% locked to be scum"? I don't really know how else to answer this. I think Mulch and you are the scummiest players in the game, and I lean slightly scum on Serg. You are my number one, number two and number three scum reads, respectively. I have varying levels of confidence in each of those reads. I could easily be wrong about 1, or 2, or all of you (all is very unlikely). I'm pretty confident that Mulch is scum, which is why I'm voting for him. I'm not going to completely disregard all the suspect stuff you've done based on interactions with someone of unknown alignment. The only world in which having 3 scum reads is the the same as thinking 3 people are scum together is the world in which we have 100% complete confidence in every single one of our reads all the time. Maybe I could see that argument if we were very close to LYLO but its day 1, and we have no alignment info at all. What you're saying simply makes no sense to me.

Like I'm trying really hard to not just throw up my hands here because this is like basic of the basics of how the game of mafia works, and how scum hunting works.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #706 (isolation #47) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:33 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 701, wavemode wrote:Can we lynch sergtacos
What exactly is your reason for wanting to lynch Serg? Your ISO is pretty devoid of arguments for sergscum. There's 637, which I honestly don't find too convincing, and not too much else. If you want to get me off the lynch Mulch or Lalendra train you'll have to be more convincing than that. Right now I would only vote him if Mulch or Lalendra couldn't get the necessary votes.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #716 (isolation #48) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:06 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 712, Lalendra wrote: It doesn't make any sense to me because if you say "I think these three players are scum," you can't also turn around and say "I never said that you were scum TOGETHER." It seemed really really off to me that you would say that all three of us are scum, and then act flabbergasted by the idea that we are scum together. One sort of necessitates the other. NOW you are admitting that maybe not all three of us are scum, but that is a very different tone than the one I read in your original posts, and smacks to me of backtracking.
Except I never said 'these three players are scum'. I never even came close. I said I think these three players are my top scum reads, in varying forms and variations. The only player that I come close to any certainty on is Mulch who is my number one read and about whom I am very confident. I encourage you to go back and read and if you can find anywhere where I say anything close to either you or Serg are scum I will eat my hat. I've described you both as 'scum lean', 'sketch', 'coasting', 'irrational'. The stance that I'm supposedly backtracking from NEVER HAPPENED. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Like for example you just listed 4 scum reads, just like I have been consistently speaking about my 3 scum reads. If we go by the flawed logic you are applying to me, this means you believe there is a team of 4 scum and its those 4 together. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #717 (isolation #49) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:07 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I'm just begging to know what the 'original posts' are here.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #720 (isolation #50) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:39 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 718, Lalendra wrote: This is the post I was referring to. "My scum reads are Mulch and you, followed by serg."
Uh...
In post 711, Lalendra wrote:My scumreads on chip/dany/tiam/wossi are largely related to the way they've interacted with Mulch, who I still think is town, aside from the points that I made earlier about my Wossi scumread.
So are the four players you describe as your scumreads (chip dany tiam and wossi) a scum team of 4 or do you admit that your line of reasoning is horseshit?
In post 718, Lalendra wrote: The fact that you later said that you "don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm" doesn't negate the fact that if you are right about all three of us (which you're not, and I am doubtful you're right about even one of us), we are all scum together.
Okay but I literally never said that I thought I was 100% right about all three of you. These are my scum reads, i.e. the people I think are suspicious. I don't add someone to my list of scum reads because they are definitively 100% scum, and I don't preclude someone from suspicion because of associations when ALL ALIGNMENTS ARE UNKNOWN.
In post 711, Lalendra wrote: So I was pointing out how silly that would be based on the way I have played. You talking about your level of confidence in those reads, how one or more could be wrong, etc. doesn't come in until later.
That's a straight up lie you just told. I've been backing off my serg read for ages based on his play seeming more random than anything else. That's the basis of my current conversation with wavemode...And I'm sorry but when someone lists a bunch of reads its batshit crazy to default to 'this person is 100% confident in all their reads'. As I said, look at 711. Are you saying that you are 100% confident all those players are scum or are you saying those are the various people you suspect? Really think about this...why is me listing me scum reads (especially in a post where I go over how I feel about every player) possibly saying "THESE THREE ARE DEFINITELY SCUM".
In post 711, Lalendra wrote: And frankly, it's kind of silly to analyze people's scumminess in a vacuum, and not take associatives into consideration at least somewhat; I would not scumread three people without at least considering the interactions I had seen between those three, or at least saying "hmm, if the three of them are scum then that means that they are a team together, and I will disregard what would be extremely obvious bussing on Lalendra's part if that is the case." I don't know, the entire argument just doesn't hold water, as far as I am concerned.
But thats just the thing. Currently we are in a vacuum. Its quite frankly a waste of time to worry about associations until we have a flip because there countless explanations for two players interacting with eachother a certain way and its pure conjecture until we have a flip. Have I thought about the associations? Sure a little bit. Do I consider it a factor that makes any significant difference in how I read people day 1? No. Will I consider it a much more significant factor once we have a couple known alignments? Yes. But right now its purely guesswork. You even make note of this yourself right here:
Lalendra wrote: I'm like 99% convinced Seph is scum and would love to get a flip so I can parse associatives, but that isn't going to happen so I'll have to either wait for Mulch's flip or I'll be dead and it won't matter.
Hmm its almost like you should WAIT for a FLIP before you try to PARSE AsSoCiAtIvEs. Regardless I really don't see how you can think that my stance here is AI. I don't think associatives are useful until after a flip and I never have. I like to base my reads on the concrete actions and things that have happened. Thats why associatives are CRAZY USEFUL AND IMPORTANT in forming reads...starting when we have flips and the associatives start to live in the realm of concrete and not unknown. Like if you think its okay to scunmhunt based on pure conjecture and unknowns, thats fine but you can't claim its scummy that I prefer facts.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #757 (isolation #51) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:16 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 754, Mulch wrote:Any questions
Why is the sky blue? Why do mommy and daddy wrestle at night?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #761 (isolation #52) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 760, Mulch wrote:
In post 757, Sephiroth wrote:
In post 754, Mulch wrote:Any questions
Why is the sky blue? Why do mommy and daddy wrestle at night?
:roll:
I mean I'm just saying you promised to be low effort and delivered. You basically ignored anything I said that was directed at you. Why would I think you have any intention of answering a question that matters?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #763 (isolation #53) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:35 am

Post by Sephiroth »

You recently said you don't know who the scum are...are there any reads that you
do
feel confident about?

Do you plan on being zero effort all game or are you just giving up completely because it looks like you're going to be lynched?

Do you think you are fulfilling your duty as a replacement if you don't make a legitimate effort to fulfill the slot's win condition?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #765 (isolation #54) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:46 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 764, Mulch wrote:1) my townreads
Can you remind me again what those are at this exact moment? I'm not trying to be pedantic but they have legitimately changed quite a bit and I'm not certain who your top reads are anymore. It seems like right now you're saying everyone is equally town. T/F?
In post 764, Mulch wrote: 2) no, and I’m not giving up. Nobody has asked me anything so
You literally just said you don't care if you're lynched though. And saying you think everyone is town and not digging a little deeper sure seems like you gave up.
In post 764, Mulch wrote: 3) false question
I'm just saying as town you're supposed to care if you're lynched at least a little bit. Not caring about being lynched isn't a reason to townread you, it just makes me think you're not really trying at your win condition regardless of your alignment. Which is just a bummer for the game as a whole.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #767 (isolation #55) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:06 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 766, Mulch wrote:1) 1,3,8,9,10,12,13
3) I don’t really blame myself for people scumreading me for my style ^^
I disagree that you're being scumread for your style, its been noted that your lack of effort is out of character for you. Do you blame your lack of effort on other people too?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #768 (isolation #56) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:10 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Meant to ask you what you meant with 1 but then realized I'm a dumb ass.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #805 (isolation #57) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:33 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Apologies for my delay in posting. Got a new midi keyboard and I've been a little obsessed :D Will reread D1 and post my thoughts later on this evening.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #835 (isolation #58) » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:23 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

I'm not sure Mulch's town flip really gives us much to work with. I'm a little bit disappointed that he couldn't be bothered to read the game since it pretty much assured he would be the day 1 lynch. Personally I don't see anything particularly scummy about Dany's intent to hammer and eventual hammer. It seemed to be the clear direction we were going and deadline was looming. The claim had dropped and Dany made his intent clear. So yeah I don't really see much of anything there.

I think an argument could be made that both Serg and Lalendra were whiteknighting, and you could even stretch that argument to cover Wicked who was pretty anti-Mulch lynch. I find the case against Lalendra the most convincing but I'll admit this could be a bit of confirmation bias since I scum read her pretty hard. Lalendra was consistently calling him town starting in . Its worth noting that this is right after the Mulch wagon gets serious (5 votes). Also worth noting is that Mulch had posted
dozens
of times by this point and what does Lalendra find to make him locktown? A single post in which he admitted that he didn't read the OP, and how it seems sincere. She also fails to actually interact with his other posts at all, but chooses a few low hanging fruit from skitter attacking Mulch and counters those points. Its ALSO noteworthy that in the midst of the barreling wagon on someone she proclaims as locktown, she chooses not to push any of the legitimate alternatives, but instead goes on this odd crusade against me based on arguments that frankly made no sense to the point of seeming insincere. To me this reads as someone who saw the wagon, knew Mulch's alignment and then found a random thing to hold up to justify her town read. Then rather than defend her 'lock town read' she found something that allowed her to keep her activity up during the lynch without engaging with it; manufacturing an attack against me.

Now Serg's behavior is also very weird, don't get me wrong. I have literally no idea why town OR scum serg would be unvoting and revoting mulch repeatedly throughout the day, all while proclaiming him to be town. And then there's the lol hammer comment. I view Serg as a wildcard who is working mostly on vibe rather than reason. His behavior on Mulch's wagon is consistent with that to me. That is to say, I don't find it to be any more AI than anything else he's done this game or in any game. That being said, I really don't want to wind up in a LYLO situation with him. I would support his wagon based on my inability to get a strong read on him and the fact that he'll be a liability in end, but I'm not thrilled at the thought of a Serg lynch today.

Wicked doesn't raise too many flags on the white knighting front and I disagree with Implosion's assessment that they lurked their way through the Mulch shenanigans. Wicked posted that he had a slight town lean on Mulch but would vote that way to prevent NL, and continued to push their scum reads. He engages and refutes almost all of the major points against mulch and while I disagree with him the interaction reads genuine to me. Seems like a pretty reasonable stance. I also disagree that TIAM was lurking through the end of the day. Their behavior seemed consistent with how they played most of the day to me, which tells me pretty much nothing.

I need to reread specifically with a focus on players I'm having trouble reading. Dany's sudden playstyle shift has been mentioned so I want to look into that more. Theres also (I think unmentioned at this point) the way that Chip's posting drastically changed halfway through the day, so I'll be looking into that. I don't have a strong read on Wavemode at all which is worrisome.

Town: Skitter and Implosion
Townish: Flub and Wicked
Null w/ town lean: TIAM
Null w/ scum lean: Serg
Null/No Read: Dany, Chip, Wavemode.

And this of course leaves my good friend, Lalendra. Lalendra is scum. We should all be voting Lalendra,
at least
to start the day. Like maybe we can vote someone else later but just look at that first post of D1. How could she completely forget me from her reads? I thought I was quickly rising to be one of her top scum candidates, and Mulch's town flip if anything should be reinvigorating her crusade against me but instead I suddenly don't exist. This to me is a post made by someone who's reads are not genuine. Town doesn't just forget to mention one of their top scum reads entirely on their first post of D2. Combine this with the potential white knighting, the role fishing on wossi who of course turned out to be a PR. It makes me wonder if perhaps there was a crumb that informed both the role fish and the NK.

Vote: Lalendra
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #849 (isolation #59) » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:37 am

Post by Sephiroth »

There are more than 6 players in this game, right? Can we get some activity from other players please?

I still think its suspect that Lalendra completely forgot to evaluate me in her first post, especially with the reasoning given. Lalendra, you realize that you ended the day with your vote on me, despite posting after some people had already declared your case against me weak, right? Why were you content to not post again or change your vote or SOMETHING at the end of the day if you decided that your read was not as good as you thought? Why not make a point to acknowledge at any point that you are changing your stance on me?

Serg I'm sorry but thats not a lie. See Skitter's post above. Why is your first response to any criticism always that the person reading you is scummy?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #884 (isolation #60) » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:58 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 873, Lalendra wrote:You are two of the four people I scumread. I'm not going to go into associatives until one of you flips.
In post 875, Lalendra wrote:Because there's very little point in nitpicking the interactions between all of you until one of you flips. Pre-flip associatives are a waste of time.
In post 879, Lalendra wrote:I was referring to the interactions between my four scum reads. None of you have flipped so there is no information to gain by examining associatives. You asked me how I envision you and Dany being scumbuddies, that was my answer.

Dude are you fucking kidding me???
In post 668, Lalendra wrote: If the three of us are scum then I am doing the absolute most obvious buddying and shit-tastic scum play ever.
In post 671, Lalendra wrote:Not to mention that it would be fairly obvious bussing if BOTH of my scumbuddies were on my wagon. That, combined with the fact that I am so confident that they are town DESPITE the fact that they are voting me, should be all the evidence you need. I retract my earlier reads list; you are just manufacturing scumtells at this point, not to mention the blatant misrep re: my 580.

VOTE: Sephiroth
In post 704, Lalendra wrote: In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??
In post 718, Lalendra wrote: This is the post I was referring to. "My scum reads are Mulch and you, followed by serg." The fact that you later said that you "don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm" doesn't negate the fact that if you are right about all three of us (which you're not, and I am doubtful you're right about even one of us), we are all scum together. So I was pointing out how silly that would be based on the way I have played. You talking about your level of confidence in those reads, how one or more could be wrong, etc. doesn't come in until later.
And frankly, it's kind of silly to analyze people's scumminess in a vacuum, and not take associatives into consideration at least somewhat; I would not scumread three people without at least considering the interactions I had seen between those three, or at least saying "hmm, if the three of them are scum then that means that they are a team together, and I will disregard what would be extremely obvious bussing on Lalendra's part if that is the case."

So so so happy with my vote.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #911 (isolation #61) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:29 am

Post by Sephiroth »

This is pretty easy. There's no excuse for hammering without waiting for claim that early in the day.

vote: Tiam


Provable how? You didn't even claim your targets...
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #914 (isolation #62) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:50 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I considered that possibility but I don't have any issue with someone being at L-3. I'll unvote if anyone else votes them.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #918 (isolation #63) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:03 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 917, skitter30 wrote: b) kinda concerned that we'll have another quickhammer, given that we have wave (pops in to naked vote the L-2 vote, and appears to be aware that he was casting that vote, and literally hadn't mentioned her at all day2, and hasn't implied a read on her since like early-mid day1), serg (wanted to lolhammer his locktownread and pops in to naked vote the L-1 vote without checking the vc), and two (doesn't want to end the day early but quickhammers someone without intent or a claim or anything)
That's fair.
unvote
.

I'm fairly confident that TIAM is not town. I think the lolquickhammer with no claim and after explicitly talking about how we can't afford a mislynch crosses the line from 'lol TIAM' to 'this dude is actively making moves with the purpose of hurting town'. Its certainly possible that TIAM is SK and that would explain why their playstyle is very outside of their norm this game. Either way he's far and away my number one lynch candidate. I think Wave is a far scummier vote than Serg's given the context of Sergs play and the context of waves play. I don't see how waves naked vote makes any sense, especially given the fact that they had a chance to unvote AFTER the -1 and AFTER Wicked noted it was L-1. Why not unvote, or ask for a claim? Why are you sitting there saying that you think TIAM is scummy and putting a player at -1 with no stated reasoning? Like wave, you literally saw wicked vote for tiam with a post full of reasoning, how did you not move your vote there or at least unvote when it became clear there was a chance of a competing wagon?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #938 (isolation #64) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:54 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 935, skitter30 wrote:
In post 918, Sephiroth wrote:Why are you sitting there saying that you think TIAM is scummy and putting a player at -1 with no stated reasoning? Like wave, you literally saw wicked vote for tiam with a post full of reasoning, how did you not move your vote there or at least unvote when it became clear there was a chance of a competing wagon
Who is this addressed to? Chip maybe?
Still speaking to wave mode. Meant it as 'like, dude,'. Not 'similar to wave'.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #987 (isolation #65) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:54 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I don't think putting someone at -3 is a significant risk given the general level of activity, my level of activity during the week, and my level of certainty that TIAM is scum. I unvoted because Skitter was adamant and keeping my vote there isn't going to have a major impact. I don't like the hammer and that claim smells like B.S. to me. If TIAM truly was the backup RB wouldn't he know that he would be fairly safe yesterday? Someone who legitimately has a power role doesn't say things like:

In post 910, TwoInAMillion wrote:
In post 912, TwoInAMillion wrote:And yeah, i did have an excuse because I didn't want to be mislynched and Lelandra was acting really scummy.
and
In post 921, TwoInAMillion wrote:I felt like the odds of Lelandra being town vs. the odds of me being lynched necessitated it.
Because a) they were at 1 vote? and b) THEY HAVE A CLAIM THEY CAN MAKE.

Do you seriously believe that town backup RB TIAM quickhammers Lalendra out of fear of being lynched, at 1 vote, with a PR claim in his back pocket? And then comes in and drops the claim first thing today now that their lynch IS imminent? Does that not demonstrate that they know what they're SUPPOSED to do when feeling threatened with a lynch?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #990 (isolation #66) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:20 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Serg and Chip are the best bets for SK. Dark horse candidate is Skitter but I'm still pretty convinced Skitter is town.

TIAM is clearly scum.

Wave sure smells like TIAMs partner to me. Yesterday, right before quick hammer, Wave mentions that he could vote TIAM instead of lalendra (but really wants Serg) when there is almost no chance of a TIAM lynch. TIAM proceeds to quick hammer. Now suddenly, after a quick hammer and a nonsensical claim/explanation, and after he seems like the most likely lynch candidate, you lean town on him? While simultaneously laughing at his defenses? Sorry if I'm a little bit confused here, but how do TIAMs actions possibly turn him to a town lean?

TIAM's partners are Wavemode and one of {Implosion/{Serg, Chip}} (whichever one is not SK).

Boom.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1000 (isolation #67) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:30 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 996, wavemode wrote: This is so manufactured it hurts. You're angling to end this game quickly now that we're in mylo and it's so blatantly obvious. TIAM's actions have zero scum motivation and you know it. I'm scum because I'm the only one here who can put more than one iota of thought into people's actual motivations? (Even though I shouldn't *really* be the only one... Skitter can attest that TIAM did the exact same thing in Mini 1931 and was town...) And as much as I would RELISH policy lynching TIAM for always doing stupid anti-town shit...
Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.

You need to stop ignoring what I'm saying. Heres the long and short: quickhammer in that situation hurts the town, and helps scum. You can dress it up and say that there's no scum motivation because it will get him lynched. Only problem is this is still true for town. There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum. However there IS a scum benefit of a quicklynch without claim and NO benefit to town. You can't let ppl do incredibly scummy, obviously scum motivated things and then pretend theres no scum motivation because theres also a negative consequence for scum in that situation... There are CLEAR AND OBVIOUS scum motivations for TIAM's actions which you have decided are irrelevant because TIAM, a known irrational actor, would be afraid of the consequences?? Gimme a break man.
In post 996, wavemode wrote:
In post 158, wavemode wrote:
In post 155, Sephiroth wrote:What are your thoughts on tiam?
As in most games, I would happily lynch tiam, out of principle

As for whether he is scum or not, I have no idea :lol:
...I believe we can no longer afford it and need to think critically at this stage. Right now I doubt TIAM is scum, as he'd have no reason to basically assassinate himself with that hammer, and I also think his play is consistent with his meta.
See above. A quick hammer is scum motivated not town motivated, and you are giving an irrational player a pass because you think it was an irrational thing to do.
In post 996, wavemode wrote: You on the other hand are turning all shades of red. You're executing a chainsaw attack (if you will). We're in fucking mylo, and rather than expressing any interest whatsoever in gathering information, getting people's opinions, discussing a massclaim, discussing whether TIAM can confirm his role, AKA all the things we're SUPPOSED to be doing to avoid this game ending today, you are dead set on getting TIAM lynched for hammering a wagon YOU were pushing for (hard) and anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM's alignment must be TIAM's partner. (Which, by the way LOL why would his partners even be defending him at this point? If you think I'm scum here you must think I'm a pretty shitty player... but I digress.) Your sudden aggression and utter self-certainty when the game is this close to the edge is extremely scummy.
Uh. I'm not even voting him right now. I'm actively using my discussion with you as a means to determine whether I think you are also scum. I explictly asked TIAM why he thinks his role is provable. I think its blatantly false to portray me as trying to limit discussion and go straight to lynching TIAM just because I'm confident in that read. Again...I'm not even voting him right now.

I am not pushing that anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM is his partner, I'm pushing that YOU are his partner because your change in stance is nonsensical and because you refuse to acknowledge the logical discrepancy I pointed out. Again, I point to his behavior around thinking he was going to be lynched and note that that argument holds no water if the claim is true. I find it incredibly suspicious that you were leaning scum on him and now lean town after he does an absurdly scummy thing. In no way is this a chainsaw (that would require me to be taking attention off TIAM wagon) and in no way am I pushing that we lynch TIAM immediately.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1001 (isolation #68) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:17 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 999, skitter30 wrote: Seph - I feel like I may have been pocketed by you tbh. I need to look at your posts again. I really, really dislike that you decided to start off voting today, given that you had thought about the possibility of an SK and that we might be in MYLO; you haven't exactly struck me as the impulsive type.
I don't consider that vote impulsive. When I feel confident in someone being scum aligned, I vote them. I've done so all game. I did consider we were in MYLO but I do not consider it at all likely that a quicklynch could occur from L-3. For one thing I get notification emails when people post and I sit at a computer all day at work; I'm confident in the fact that I could unvote in time, and I can almost guarantee that yeseterdays quickhammer never happens if it were during the week when I follow the thread religiously. I also think the number of lolvoters that you claim is overstated. I count 2 (serg and TIAM) and one of them was my vote target. Who else constitutes the million lolvoters of which you speak?

-----
In post 999, skitter30 wrote: Also I replaced out of 1931, but I'm pretty sure that after I left the game he hammered the obvtown who was claiming doc (ie Eddie) and artificially cut the day short there too? (Although tbf I just reglanced at his ISO there and he like bled clueless newbtown there and it's kidna lacking here). But yeah I don't disagree that this is necessarily something he wouldn't do as town. He's so ridiculously anti-town that it's hard for me to differentiate from anti-town/bad play from him in comparison to actually scum play from him. I don't know if the quickhammer is necessarily AI for *him*. That being said, his reasoning for doing so is awful. But then, his reasoning for doing like anything has been awful in my experience.
I couldn't find that in his ISO, so I'm confused what you guys are talking about? As far as I can tell he drops the -1 on Eddie which is not great but he's far from acting alone or taking drastic anti town action. It is COMPLETELY different than what he's done here.
You and Wave both need to reevaluate giving TIAM a pass on the hammer if you're misremembering him quickhammering as town.


Additionally, what are your thoughts on this?
In post 987, Sephiroth wrote:If TIAM truly was the backup RB wouldn't he know that he would be fairly safe yesterday? Someone who legitimately has a power role doesn't say things like:

In post 910, TwoInAMillion wrote:
In post 912, TwoInAMillion wrote:And yeah, i did have an excuse because I didn't want to be mislynched and Lelandra was acting really scummy.
and
In post 921, TwoInAMillion wrote:I felt like the odds of Lelandra being town vs. the odds of me being lynched necessitated it.
Because a) they were at 1 vote? and b) THEY HAVE A CLAIM THEY CAN MAKE.

Do you seriously believe that town backup RB TIAM quickhammers Lalendra out of fear of being lynched, at 1 vote, with a PR claim in his back pocket? And then comes in and drops the claim first thing today now that their lynch IS imminent? Does that not demonstrate that they know what they're SUPPOSED to do when feeling threatened with a lynch?
Like, its not like I came in and voted TIAM purely on the quickhammer, its the behavior surrounding and leading up to the quick hammer and the immediate claim today, and the fact that the story being told around each of those things doesn't line up. Maybe you are just a more cautious player than me but I stand by my decision to vote and don't think was significant risk of a quicklynch occurring.
In post 999, skitter30 wrote: Seph, you acknowledged that you considered the fact that we may be in MYLO and that there could well be 4 scum. Placing someone at L-3 in this context is *really* not a good look, especially since you well know that we have a million lolvoters in this game.
I think we only have two lolvoters, one of which I was voting for, and I'm confident in my read. I agree with you that its POSSIBLE that a quicklynch could happen which is why I unvoted, but my initial analysis was that it was incredibly unlikely especially since I was voting for one of the lolvotes and someone I view to be one of the scum.
In post 999, skitter30 wrote:
In post 918, Sephiroth wrote:Its certainly possible that TIAM is SK and that would explain why their playstyle is very outside of their norm this game.
And I don't get why you're pushing that TIAM might be SK instead of groupscum here?
Because I think its a possibility based on meta. I don't feel strongly about it but I prefer to share thoughts when I have them. I put the chances of TIAM being mafia far above that of him being SK but its still a possibility.
In post 999, skitter30 wrote: Also, in 990, you literally forget about Flubber?
Flubber is very forgettable this game. If pressed for a read I would say I lean town but its not really based on anything significant.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1005 (isolation #69) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:46 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1002, wavemode wrote:
In post 1000, Sephiroth wrote:Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.
For no discernible reason, he hammered Eddie Cane, our doctor, before we could go after Vedith (pretty sure he was Game Replacement in that game) for lying about his night results.
This was after 15 pages of discussion on that day, no? Not instantly with no real conversation and way before the deadline? I'm sorry it just doesn't seem consistent with what happened here.
In post 1002, wavemode wrote:
In post 1000, Sephiroth wrote:You need to stop ignoring what I'm saying. Heres the long and short: quickhammer in that situation hurts the town, and helps scum. You can dress it up and say that there's no scum motivation because it will get him lynched. Only problem is this is still true for town. There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum. However there IS a scum benefit of a quicklynch without claim and NO benefit to town. You can't let ppl do incredibly scummy, obviously scum motivated things and then pretend theres no scum motivation because theres also a negative consequence for scum in that situation... There are CLEAR AND OBVIOUS scum motivations for TIAM's actions which you have decided are irrelevant because TIAM, a known irrational actor, would be afraid of the consequences?? Gimme a break man.
No, YOU need to stop ignoring what I'M saying.
You're
the one who keeps dressing this up as though the game is solved when it's absolutely not. My problem is not you scumreading TIAM, my problem is you being so sure of yourself and voting him right at daystart WHEN WE ARE IN MYLO. This game is no longer a question of what we can and can't let people do anymore, it's a question of how can we gather as much information as possible and make the best possible decision. As I myself said, I would happily policy lynch TIAM any day of the week for his ridiculousness but WE ARE PAST THAT POINT. "There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum" YES EXACTLY SO STOP TREATING THIS LIKE WE KNOW FOR SURE BECAUSE WE DON'T. You are not scum because you want to lynch TIAM, you're scum because you have this ridiculous moral arrogance like the game is done and solved when it's absolutely not. This shitty, reckless "This is pretty easy, scum quickhammered LUL" attitude you entered this day with? I see it all the time from late game scum (including myself, at times) who think they have a perfect last mislynch set up and the town
always
fail to recognize it and just happily run off a cliff.
Dude you edited my post to remove the entire point I was making about the negative consequences. I'm saying that there are negative consequences to either alignment so saying it has negative consequences to scum is not a point against him being scum. ADDITIONALLY and note that these are connected points here, try to follow, there IS a benefit to quickhammering as scum and there isn't one as town. My point is that the negative consequences which you're holding up as a beacon of him being town are null but that the scummy motivation to quickhammer STILL EXISTS and is NOT NULL. Overall the quickhammer has clear scum motivation and bad scum consequences, and it also has NO town motivation and bad town consequences. This is what I mean when I say you're ignoring what I'm saying. The fallout from the hammer may be null, but you keep claiming there are no scum motivations to quickhammer. thats wrong and its insincere to claim that there are no scum motivations as opposed to there are detriments to the move as both sides.
In post 1002, wavemode wrote:
In post 1000, Sephiroth wrote:I am not pushing that anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM is his partner, I'm pushing that YOU are his partner because your change in stance is nonsensical and because you refuse to acknowledge the logical discrepancy I pointed out. Again, I point to his behavior around thinking he was going to be lynched and note that that argument holds no water if the claim is true. I find it incredibly suspicious that you were leaning scum on him and now lean town after he does an absurdly scummy thing. In no way is this a chainsaw (that would require me to be taking attention off TIAM wagon) and in no way am I pushing that we lynch TIAM immediately.
LOL. Point me to where, at a single point in this entire game, I have ever said I thought TIAM was scum. I've had him at null, at worst, for most of the game. As I said outright at the beginning of the game - my attitude was, TIAM is better dead than alive regardless of his alignment (this scummy mylo push you're making on him is a prime example of why, btw...)
Again, I wish you would read what I say instead of ignoring it. I already asked you why you acted the way you did towards TIAM and Lalendra at end of day, and specifically cited that you said you were willing to lynch TIAM at the end of the day. Are you saying that you were purely speaking about a policy lynch in that post? I don't think its unreasonable to think that you're scumreading him based on that since your reads are rarely posted and rarely reasoned, and that you didn't specify in that post. Maybe if you had just answered my question at the beginning of the day instead of sidestepping I would have a clearer idea of what your reads are? Given that there wasn't a switch I'm less inclined to give this argument credence but I still don't understand how you view him as town here even if you were townleaning him previously, given both the hammer and bad claim.
In post 1002, wavemode wrote: Also, let's just entertain this fiction and say that I was indeed scumleaning TIAM earlier in the game. How is that a "logical discrepancy," and how would that change the facts of today?
Don't act all indignant about how I'm ignoring you and then fail to pick up the very basic points I'm making. The logical discrepancy that I'm bringing up and that you are refusing to acknowledge is in TIAMs behavior,
not
in yours. This is one of two major points as to why I'm sure TIAM is scum, which you've repeatedly ignored. Its post 987. It discusses how if TIAM was truly the RB, he had absolutely zero reason to fear a lynch yesterday because he would've had the claim available. This makes his explanation for dropping the hammer completely illogical, especially considering he felt the need to claim today and therefore clearly know how to use his claim when he's worried about being lynched. One might even think this point is based on CrItIcAl ThInKiNg.
In post 1002, wavemode wrote: And besides that, let's address the elephant in the room of WHY AM I DEFENDING TIAM AT THIS POINT? You don't get *out* of mylo, buddy, once you're in, unless the SK shoots scum. All I would have to do is bus TIAM and then lynch someone else tomorrow, and it would still be a scum win. Sooooo.... what am I doing here? But of course these are things you haven't considered, since, as I suspected, your ridiculous scumread-by-association of me was purely kneejerk. You're not critically evaluating jack shit, you're just throwing mud and seeing what sticks to discredit my townread of TIAM so your mislynch will go though.
I woudn't say I'm throwing mud. And I wouldn't say those are things I haven't considered. I would say I've also considered the scenario where you go hard anti-bus on TIAM and then rock the "WHY WOULD I DEFEND MY PARTNER" schtick tomorrow. I've also considered the scenario where you are the SK and genuinely think that TIAM is town and that you can get town cred by hardcore derailing his wagon (though I find it hard to believe the anti TIAM lynch stance is sincere). And of course there's the chance that youre town and legitimately town read TIAM. All these are possibilities. But the fact that you don't see anything wrong with the claim and repeatedly ignore my posts about it make it hard to think you're sincere, in any scenario.

I think its cute how you think that I'm not critically thinking. Because me posting all those reads with specific names in slots hasn't generated any discussion, or aided my evaluation of you. And because me coming in saying I was confident == me saying lets lynch TIAM immediately with no discussion... Yup. The basis of my argument is that your stance on TIAM changed, and now you're saying that I was incorrect about that, which frankly I can't verify so I retract that point. But the fact remains that you are refusing to acknowledge the discrepancy I pointed out in his claim
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1009 (isolation #70) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:54 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1007, wavemode wrote:The fact that you still act as though this is about TIAM and not about your attitude is also laughable... this isn't my first rodeo, and I know an endgame push when I see one.
Actually I did address your points about my attitude, and I've responded to Skitter's points along a similar vein. I'd like to know more about how being confident and clearly stating my reads and thoughts = 'an endgame push'. The fact that you have made a poorly advised 'endgame push' like you mentioned previously is purely anecdotal and honestly a bad play to make as scum in this position in my opinion. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
In post 1007, wavemode wrote: Is the reason I'm scum? Your whole argument here is from the presupposition that TIAM did not truly believe Lalendra was scum who was about to escape and get him lynched. You can debate the merits of his reasoning til kingdom come but at the end of the day this is the exact same situation that played out in a previous game I've had with TIAM, and he flipped town. So again, what is your point? If this is your whole basis for scumreading me you're going to need to try harder than this son.
How is this the exact same situation?
- They were vanilla there and didn't fake claim anything specific.
- They stood by the hammer and didn't try to explain it away or make excuses. Here, TIAM makes the excuse that he was worried about being the lynch instead of just standing by the vote like they did as town in 1931.
- TIAM drops the hammer well into the day, after double digit pages of discussion, NOT after day has barely been open at all and when activity is scarce. (I like that you somehow forgot to address this point from my last post, I guess its inconvenient for the whole 'exact same situation' argument?)

Admit it; this is NOT the same situation and TIAMs argument that he was worried about being lynched is laughably seethrough even for him. Its a bold faced lie to imply this is the same situation and its either negligent or insincere to not acknowledge that there are degrees of anti-town behavior and that TIAMs hammer here far exceeds the scumminess of their hammer there.

I'm sorry but you can't just say TIAM has quickhammered as town before under different circumstances and different context and with completely different follow up behavior and claim its the exact same thing. You're just making up excuses for him and I really have to question why you would do that, and why your behavior would change so drastically after being accused of partners with him.

I already said I'm dropping the point about your stance flipping because I misinterpreted your post about wanting to lynch TIAM yesterday. For those keeping track at home, that means my scumread on you is not as strong as it was before. The secondary reason is that the case against TIAM is in my opinion pretty rock solid and you oppose it based on fallacious reasoning. The two hammers were NOT the same thing, not at all. TIAM's explanation and claim are completely at odds with eachother. Insisting over and over that HES DONE THIS BEFORE is either insincere or you're guilty of the lack of critical thinking that you keep accusing me of, by clearing him for doing something similar once as vanilla. Defending someone I think is scum based on faulty logic (especially when I think you're smart enough to see how its faulty) makes me think you must be scummy...I'm sorry that makes you so salty.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1012 (isolation #71) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:38 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1011, wavemode wrote: You're comically missing the point. All you've basically pointed out is that they're two different games. Thanks, Captain Obvious, I recognize that. Would you also like to point out that one game was in the summer and this one is in the fall? It's equally irrelevant to my point. The essence of what I'm describing, i.e. that TIAM is a player with zero grasp on Mafia etiquette who derphammers his scumreads at will, remains valid. The more you keep trying to twist this as though I have no valid reasons to believe TIAM is town here, the worse you look, not me.
I think we have a fundamental disagreement on how to read TIAM's meta. I'm not sure what to do about that. Maybe I just haven't read enough TIAM? I've read 1 full one and 1 ISO. I think the differences I've noted are AI, I guess you don't. But I feel like
at best
TIAM's meta is a valid reason to null read him. I don't really understand how you can town read him.

I think its telling that TIAM doesn't own the quickhammer but tries to explain it away. I think town TIAM owns his vote there. He hammers MUCH more prematurely than the other game and his explanation for hammering and the claim don't make sense together. I also don't think town TIAM seriously worries about being lynched at
1
vote as a PR.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1033 (isolation #72) » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I'm not sure if we're going to get anywhere speculating number of kills unfortunately. I'm fairly certain we have an SK and not a vig based on the kills and FBI Agent (admittedly could be a red herring, though).

I think we should mass claim due to potential MYLO. Anyone strongly opposed? If we're in agreement, how do we want to decide the order?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1051 (isolation #73) » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:58 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1036, skitter30 wrote:
Chip
Flubber
Implosion
Seph
Serg
Me
Two - backup roleblocker
Wave
+1
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1091 (isolation #74) » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:45 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

I'm VT.

My only issue with chips claim is the flipped fbi agent. Is Nexus known to be a mischievous mod? I don't really know how common red herring fbi agents are.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1105 (isolation #75) » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:40 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.

Edit: I'm inclined to believe Serg here given my previous feelings on TIAM. Its also consistent with the sudden hardline push/pleading for lynch on TIAM, as well as testing the wagon on Skitter.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1114 (isolation #76) » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:58 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1110, wavemode wrote:
In post 1105, Sephiroth wrote:Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.
Then you're naive about good vig play. It's not about my personal feelings, it's about who most people want dead. Get rid of them at night so we don't have to debate about it
The most people wanted him dead today via lynch yet you argued against it at length. How is this different? Should you not argue against the death of players you believe to be protown (especially PR) regardless of how they will die? It would be one thing to not argue against that choice but suggesting it yourself is fairly surprising.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1194 (isolation #77) » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:48 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Prod dodge. Apologies for inactivity. Will reread tonight and will vote TIAM unless theres a strong argument to not ending the day at this point. Also interested in hearing Chip's answer to 1094 but I don't think its particularly relevant to the end of today. Kind of odd that Chip seems to be ignoring the post over and over.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1204 (isolation #78) » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:00 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I guess the reason I don't see it as particularly relevant today is that it won't impact whether we lynch him today nor his behavior during the night phase. Pretty important tomorrow though.

I'm with implosion on Flubber, I really don't see his entrance to the day or ensuing play to be that town. For one, its not hard to fake being angry or disengaged. I think its pretty easy actually. Especially given this is a text based game we're playing. No visual tells, no tone of voice. I really don't but Flub town based on that. Saying I don't see scum flub being that angry is the whole point. Scum flub would not be legit angry. he would be faking. The level of anger doesn't make any sense when you consider flub has been a passive observer at best throughout the game. Its actually mildly irritating how little they've contributed to the game.
skitter wrote:
In post 1150, implosion wrote:Could still be scum doctor, but doctor + roleblocker would be quite a lot of power for scum to have here,
This line, in conjunction with the fact that implosion never really talks about the possibility of two fake-claiming, kinda implies that he *knows* that Two isn't fake-claiming (at least the roleblocker bit). I dunno if I'm wording this right to get my point across, but he just kinda takes it as a given that scum!Two isn't lying about his role. Like he starts off with the assumption that scum!roleblocker is a thing but doesn't consider the possibility that two may be lying, and then draws the conclusion that scum!doctor is probably too much if scum also have a roleblocker,
but doesn't consider the case where scum doesn't have a roleblocker
. It sounds like he kinda knows that Two isn't lying about his role.
This is worth highlighting. TIAM fiipping mafia RB = implosion scum. TIAM + Wavemode + Implosion makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not willing to completely count out the possibility of Flubscum. I guess I see the point that Skitter makes about Flubs emotions throughout today, but this only really makes sense if Flub and TIAM are not scum together. I think Flubs reaction to today is perfectly understandable if he's scum with TIAM.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1210 (isolation #79) » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:22 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1205, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1204, Sephiroth wrote:Saying I don't see scum flub being that angry is the whole point. Scum flub would not be legit angry. he would be faking. The level of anger doesn't make any sense when you consider flub has been a passive observer at best throughout the game.
Have you played other games with him? I can def see the anger being real, and I don't really see scum!flubber getting angry like that here.
I haven't played with him before, but I just generally don't buy into tells based solely on a show of emotion. Are you saying that the read is partially based on meta? I'm more inclined to accept a read thats based on emotion as it pertains to a players meta, but I still don't think its a strong argument for Flubtown. I'll have to think about it more tomorrow so I'm not going to spend too much time thinking about it at the moment.

In post 1205, skitter30 wrote: If Two flips scum, I think Implosion is the lynch tomorrow, barring serg surviving and having a guilty on someone.

If Two flips town, chip shoots Serg. Otherwise, don't do anything..
Seems like a reasonable plan to me.
vote: TIAM
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1236 (isolation #80) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:47 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I'm very sorry that I have become prod bait of late. I will post responses and my thoughts tonight. Just to end any suspense that wave might be in, no my role did not change overnight.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1251 (isolation #81) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:27 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I mean this is definitely well played by Wavemode if he pulls it off but the claim is fake. Its a bold move, Cotton, lets see if it works out for him.

This sure is a convenient claim to make.

- No other odd/even night actions...this sounds like a detail added to just make the role feel less generic and faked, but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup. It gives him a convenient means of limiting the results he needs to fake and also allows him to claim he backed off implosion 'cuz results'.

- But why would a vanilla result lead you to back off a scum read on someone, knowing that the result was NAI? On N1 a non-vanilla result against implosion does literally nothing to indicate his alignment, just that he wasn't PR. It seems much more likely that you're realizing that your interaction with implosion D1 doesn't look too great if you get lynched here instead and have to worry about getting me mislynched tomorrow instead of him.

- The breadcrumb is weak sauce. I think town with PR here would be damn sure to get their full bread crumb and the reason for stopping doesn't really hold any water if you're doing the first letter of every post.

- Skitter literally sets this up for you perfectly by repeatedly saying there had to be another investigative. Skitter in about 3 posts claims there must be an investigative remaining and then bam wave claims that today.




Skitter, I guess I'm just going to speak to you here because its really up to you what happens today.

My actions have been consistent all game. I push someone a little bit, and then depending on their response I either move on or I plant my vote and push for their lynch. I have a well established meta of probing and tunneling as town. Please read my one finished scum game on this account or if you really want to dig deep you can look at my main account, elias_the_thief, and check my ISO as scum and town.

I think its actually fairly insulting to say that I only amplified or latched on to your pushes. My points on the Mulch wagon were unique from yours. I mean you literally said 'what seph said' in response to someone asking you about the Mulch wagon because my point was not one you had made. We were on opposite sides of the wossi wagon, and my push on Lalendra had nothing to do with what you were doing. And I'm disappointed to hear what you consider me pocketing you. My post 594 is purely in reference to Serg repeatedly changing his vote around, not scumhunting, and generally acting randomly. My frustration with Serg was not sudden and did not start with that post. He voted you there for being a 'tryhard'. I was genuinely frustrated at a non-contributor who decides to vote a contributor because they're 'tryharding'. I even mentioned in a previous post how I was having trouble getting reads because we basically had rational actors who I considered to be town and then all these non-rational actors who were varying degrees of null and scummy and hard to parse. Its even more frustrating hearing this twisted into a tell. Regardless of alignment, just believe me when i tell you: I don't appreciate how serg generally plays the game, I like players who analyze and TRY and I don't like someone being attacked for actually putting effort into the game. If you want to also believe its a tell thats your prerogative but my frustration here is 100% genuine =/
In post 1249, skitter30 wrote: - I don't think this looks like a bus either? It's just an off-hand mention of not liking one of Two's posts. I'm not really sure why you're characterizing this as a maybe-bus tbh. There's very little pressure on Two at all. It's a post about other people where he throws in a mention about not liking Two, but doesn't even directly follow up on this suspicion, even after Two responds to it.
Sorry but that's not true. In that post I discuss thinking that TIAMs 68 is scummy, and speak to wanting to read some of TIAMs games to get a better read. And I did follow up by reading 1954 as well as a second game (later on, when I was arguing with wavemode that we should lynch TIAM) and post that the read didn't really change my read, but note that other players read TIAM town based on meta. As for not responding to TIAMs direct response to allegations, are you telling me you think I should have responded to 'I disagree' when I was busy pushing my number one suspect? What exactly do I gain by responding to 'I disagree', regardless of alignment?
In post 1249, skitter30 wrote: I think this is unlikely:
In post 835, Sephiroth wrote:Town: Skitter and Implosion
Townish: Flub and Wicked
Null w/ town lean: TIAM
Null w/ scum lean: Serg
Null/No Read: Dany, Chip, Wavemode.
He has no strong scumreads at ths point. Not sure why he isn't just in the null pile.
Skitter...please be vigilant before you throw the game away for a well crafted fake claim. Did you read the next part of my post? Here it is:
In post 835, Sephiroth wrote: And this of course leaves my good friend, Lalendra. Lalendra is scum. We should all be voting Lalendra,
at least
to start the day. Like maybe we can vote someone else later but just look at that first post of D1. How could she completely forget me from her reads? I thought I was quickly rising to be one of her top scum candidates, and Mulch's town flip if anything should be reinvigorating her crusade against me but instead I suddenly don't exist. This to me is a post made by someone who's reads are not genuine. Town doesn't just forget to mention one of their top scum reads entirely on their first post of D2. Combine this with the potential white knighting, the role fishing on wossi who of course turned out to be a PR. It makes me wonder if perhaps there was a crumb that informed both the role fish and the NK.

Vote: Lalendra
I DID have a stronger scum read, I had someone that I was certain was scum. I don't know how you missed the literal very next part of my post.

And this wasn't like a sudden thing, Lalendra had been my top read and I was aggressively pushing her for a long time.

I can do some more when I'm home and not at work but I implore you to really think about your arguments because already you've made two errors in the ISO analysis and your confirmation bias is making this way too easy for scum. Read my ISO again. Ask me questions. Read games from my other account. Don't throw the game away prematurely here.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1252 (isolation #82) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:01 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Also...
In post 1159, wavemode wrote:Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate. Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so
Why would someone as a vanilla cop (who has a gun) ask to be investigated here when they know it only serves to muddy the waters or potentially get them mislynched? If Wave were really someone who returns as having a gun it doesn't make any sense to ask to get investigated, and it makes perfect sense to ask to be investigated as scum after the investigative explicitly tells you theyre not investigating you.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1254 (isolation #83) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:54 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I suppose we might as well lay down the gauntlet, huh?

vote: wavemode
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1255 (isolation #84) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:12 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Care to answer why you would request an investigation as someone with a gun, if you didn't just make up the claim overnight?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1257 (isolation #85) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:29 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

You realize theres a difference between positing someones reasoning for doing something and getting an answer from that person right? Being a dick about answering a question doesn't make you look protown, it just makes you a dick.

Vanilla Cop here never asks to be investigated, especially in MYLO, EVEN if the investigative has said they won't (especially when you acknowledge that serg shouldnt be broadcasting his choices). As vanilla cop, claiming VT then asking for a investigation can only lead to your mislynch. I can see you maybe doing it as scum where you can get town points for asking and can much more easily take the risk that serg DOES decide to investigate you since your lynch wouldn't mean an immediate loss. There is literally no pro-town motivation to claim VT as vanilla cop and then ask to be investigated by the gunsmith.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1258 (isolation #86) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:31 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

It would've been a really good fakeclaim if you had finished your breadcrumb or actually played in a way that supported the claim throughout. But I guess this is why your specialty is town play?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1259 (isolation #87) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:38 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Can you also elaborate on how you would be unable to continue the crumb just because the topic of discussion changed? You were doing the first letter of every post so how in the heck does the game momentum changing possibly prevent you from continuing to be conscious of the first letter of every post?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1263 (isolation #88) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:58 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1260, wavemode wrote:
In post 1257, Sephiroth wrote:Vanilla Cop here never asks to be investigated
You're right, that's why I didn't
In post 1159, wavemode wrote:Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate.
Preferably me but you already said you wouldn't so
I mean, semantically you're right, but you said you would prefer if you were the one investigated. It would be pretty amusing for you to sit there and argue that 1159 is not asking to be investigated. How come in your first response you say there is an obvious reason to ask to be investigated but now your response is 'that never happened'?
wavemode wrote: Yeah I suppose I can see why this is hard for you to understand

Serg hardclaiming didn't change anything for you or force you to reevaluate anything since you already know everyone's alignment
If you don't have an answer you can just say that instead of some forced bravado. I repeat my question: Why were you unable to continue to crumb after the hard claim, when all you had to do was continue being conscious of the first letter of your post? What does reevaluation have to do with your original stated reason for not being able to continue to crumb below?
wavemode wrote: Then I think once Serg hardclaimed I had no real way to keep it up subtly and still logically address everything that was going on
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1285 (isolation #89) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:56 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1266, skitter30 wrote:
Why does he need to back off implosion here? He actually isn't backing off implosion; he's said yesterday he thought it was you/implosion.
This is in direct response to
In post 1238, wavemode wrote: If you noticed I started to back off my scumlean of implosion after night 1 and I more just wanted to understand some of his motivations. He made some surprising statements the morning of day 2 but I could see where his head was at so I didn't pursue it further.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote: Also, I'd agree with you on the even/odd night thing, except I've played in a mini normal recently (1946) where all the PRs except one were full-night. IE loyal cop, miller, jailkeeper, were full night, as was the scum loud fruit vendor. There was *also* an odd-night tracker, presumably odd-night so a convo like this would happen. I was scum that game and I was actually worried that the JK was lying and was even-night bp or something so that it would be more balanced on the even/odd night thing, but that wasn't a thing.
Fair enough. Its still unusual though.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1251, Sephiroth wrote:- The breadcrumb is weak sauce. I think town with PR here would be damn sure to get their full bread crumb and the reason for stopping doesn't really hold any water if you're doing the first letter of every post.
I don't think PRs always crumb. I sure don't.
My point isn't that a PR would always crumb. Its that if they were going to crumb they wouldn't stop after a few letters. And that wavemodes reason for stopping doesn't really make sense.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1251, Sephiroth wrote:Skitter literally sets this up for you perfectly by repeatedly saying there had to be another investigative. Skitter in about 3 posts claims there must be an investigative remaining and then bam wave claims that today.
I said I thought that there had to be another investigative in relation to
why I believed Serg
. Game didn't make sense without any useful (ie not wossi) investigative at all. After we all claimed and Serg then claimed gunsmith, I said I had thought someone was lying about being an investigative and that I was expecting it to be someone else (specifically wave), but that I believed Serg because an investigative had to exist.
I was *not* expecting another claim after Serg.


Also wave's crumbs (-) came from before I said that () and before Serg claimed ().

I guess I misread you. I haven't really reread as planned but when someone tells you they have a result on you that doesn't make any sense you get pretty confident they're not town.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote:
I didn't say that you 'only amplified or latched on to [my] pushes'?
I felt that the implication was that I was just following you around which I don't think was the case at any point in the game.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote: And I don't think it's a misrep to say that you amplified my Mulch push.
I guess I misunderstood amplified? It seems to me that you were trying to say I just was trying to support and go along with what you were doing. I think the Mulch wagon made perfect sense and you weren't the only one to mistrust Mulch upon his entrance. I guess I just don't agree that both of us supporting the Mulch wagon = me pocketing you.

In post 1266, skitter30 wrote: (ie posts like ).
I don't see what's pockety about this. His reads completely lined up with yours, and I gave a wise ass response
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote: This is everything you said in 'that post' () about TIAM. You call it 'manufactured' and 'sketchy'. You don't say anything there about wanting to read his games, so I'm not sure why you're saying I said things that weren't true about this post. Like I'm not sure what the 'not true' things I said were here.

(Like I'm always going to go back and check when people say things like that and I remember them differently).
I'm an idiot. I meant to say that about 175. Thats also why I am defending the post, saying that I did follow up on the post by reading TIAM's game. I got confused about when you meant I ignored TIAM's response. "I disagree" is how he responded to 175.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1251, Sephiroth wrote:well crafted fake claim
In post 1251, Sephiroth wrote:but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup.
Well . . . is it well-crafted or not?
It was well crafted until he screwed up and added the odd night. It uses a townie's unwillingness to lie about their role against them and ends the game if he pulls it off. But he shouldn't have added the bit about being odd night.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote: Again, this was in response to implosion saying 'maybe TIAM was nulltown because Seph felt he had too many major scumreads at that point', and I was pointing to that readslist to show that you *didn't* have that many major scumreads at that point. You only had the one. So that wouldn't be a good explanation for why TIAM was nulltown there when he had been scum the day before. (The fact that I forgot to include Lalendra doesn't actually negate this point).
Multiple people told me I was wrong about TIAM's meta, and reading him confirmed that he acts fairly randomly. A lot of things are better explained after reading town TIAM.
In post 1266, skitter30 wrote:
LIke I kinda feel like me/implosion are raising some legitimate points and that you're focusing on details to debunk them, when the details aren't actually that relevant to the points that I'm raising.
Do you want to clarify which points I'm neglecting to address then? I feel like the points I raised have been relevant, though I did conflate your bit about 105 with your bit about 175.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1297 (isolation #90) » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:12 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1268, wavemode wrote:
In post 1263, Sephiroth wrote:I mean, semantically you're right, but you said you would prefer if you were the one investigated. It would be pretty amusing for you to sit there and argue that 1159 is not asking to be investigated.
You're the one arguing semantics at this point. All I'm arguing is what did and didn't happen. You can use whatever definition of "ask" helps you sleep at night buddy
How come in your first response you say there is an obvious reason to ask to be investigated but now your response is 'that never happened'?
Uhhh because both are true? There is an obvious reason to ask, but I never did. Or hey, maybe by your definition of "ask" I did "ask." But I'm not sure what that changes, maybe you could enlighten me to your actual point?
The point is you asked to be investigated when you knew that your investigation could lead to a mislynch and loss. This doesn't make sense with your role but it does make sense as a means to garner town cred.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1317 (isolation #91) » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:04 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1314, skitter30 wrote: --------
@seph:

So these are some things that I'm having some trouble with:

a) The main sticking point is the way you voted Two straight off the bat yesterday. I know we talked about it a lot, but I dunno, the way you voted in probable MYLO still just doesn't sit well with me.
So this really sucks to admit to myself, but let me come clean about a couple of things.
1
) I'm not good at setup speculation and my eyes often glaze over when people start talking about it. I only play like one or two games a year so I don't really have to great ability to discern game state.
2
) I'm not a very good scumhunter and one of my greatest weaknesses is tunneling, which is something I'm trying to work on consciously.
3
) I didn't realize that we were potentially in MYLO when I made my vote, and I was tunneling on TIAMs play and hammer at the end of the day and his subsequent claim which was full of holes. Maybe I should have admitted I didn't realize the situation but I stand by my belief that a quicklynch was pretty unlikely with TIAM as the target (since he was one of the lolvoters you mentioned). It was easier to state that genuine opinion then admit that I didn't think about the possibility initially.
In post 1314, skitter30 wrote: Like this was not my intent to imply because I have a lot of respect for your game. Regardless of your alignment, I think you played really, really well, so I want to apologize if you thought that's what I was implying.
Thanks. I guess I've got some post traumatic stress from other games on this front.
In post 1314, skitter30 wrote: And I dunno. That vote just doesn't square with the rest of your game, which is just a lot more rational and thought-out and just full of good sense. It made sense from the perspective of trying to end the game in MYLO with a town!two mislynch. We know we don't live in that universe anymore. The vote *also* makes sense from the perspective of you trying to bus a partner for towncred and forgetting that we need to be worried about MYLO if you and he are both scum. Like you'd fundamentally know that we weren't in MYLO in that scenario, so it makes sense to me that scum!you might overlook the fact that you needed to pretend about MYLO there if you were more focused on making sure you executed a good bus after a partner did something kinda stupid.
I mean, those are valid ways of viewing the vote from your perspective. Voting without properly ascertaining the situation was a bad move objectively regardless of my alignment. I guess the question is whether you believe that I didn't realize we might be in MYLO or that I "didn't realize" (gratuitous air quotes) that we were in MYLO. If it means anything to you, I will BS my way out of mistakes as either alignment because my playstyle means that most players read my mistakes as scumtells. Players with a less analytical/rational playstyle might be given the benefit of the doubt, but I usually am not.
In post 1314, skitter30 wrote: Can you also talk about how Two went from scummy throughout day1 to nulltown at the start of day2?
I don't think I have an answer for this to satisfy you. Multiple players with extended meta on TIAM saying that his meta supported him being town or at best his play was NAI, so I stopped paying as much attention. I also note in 658 that TIAM is one of the players I need to reevaluate, as my scum read had been summarily shot down by people who'd played with him. I thought his behavior at the end of the previous day a bit more coherent and more protown (see: less completely random/off-base) then it had been to that point.
In post 1314, skitter30 wrote:
b)
In post 884, Sephiroth wrote:So so so happy with my vote.
This was wrt to your Lalendra vote day2, and it kinda bothered me at the time, but day 2 got cut short and day 3 got subsumed by other topics of discussion.

I dunno if I can articulate why I didn't like this, but I'll try.

The general argument against her day2 was that she completely forget about you in her readslist after she had a whole argument with you about associatives day 1, prompting declare you her biggest scumread; it didn't look natural for a townplayer to forget about their biggest scumread.

But then she started arguing *your* side of the argument, prompting the above quote.

The thing that felt kinda off about it is that it feels more *personal* than scumhunt-y. Like you were feeling vindicated by the fact that she was making an objectively silly argument given her day1 stance. Like the connotation I got from that quote there was more like you were happy you had won this argument, and not per se that you thought you had found scum.

I hope that made sense? I can try that again if it didn't.
My vindication is more in feeling that my scumread is correct, not in the vindication that her argument is silly. Lalendra was already my top read based on rolefishing and then she starts attacking me with this completely nonsensical argument. The argument is so ridiculous that it seems completely insincere to use it or argue for it. After extended debate, Lalendra NEVER admits that her argument is fallacious which just strikes me as being obstinate for no reason. When she goes and contradicts herself its vindication that she never truly believed what she was saying in her accusations towards me, i.e. confirming my belief that the attack was manufactured. It felt like a smoking gun, which is where the 'so happy with my vote' comes from. I mean, my thought process turned out to be completely wrong. But that was my thought process.
In post 1314, skitter30 wrote: c) Also post feels off to me.
Like wave accuses you of lying about your role. Instead of accusing him back or confronting him, that whole post was addressed to *me*. Like I know I'm the person who's going to decide here, but I dunno. Like if you're town and thought Wave was lying like I'd have expected you to accuse him of being lying scum and vote him or something.
The post was a response to the claim et all. The top portion is directed at everyone, and then i transition into speaking directly to you. I transition directly to speaking to you because my view here is that wavemode is scum, you are confirmed town, and you have just made points about the possibility of me being TIAMs partner (points which I viewed as unfair, or as misreps, though it seems now the misinterpretation was on my end). There's no point in getting angry with wavemode for making his play, and my denial implicitly indicates that I view him as scum (I think explicitly also); its much more important to convince the conftown that I'm town then make some OMGUS crusade against wavemode. You seem to mention my playstyle as cautious and rational so let me ask you this...what would the cautious and rational player do in this situation? Flame at the accuser, or appeal to the people who will decide how the game will proceed?
In post 1314, skitter30 wrote: Like your whole reaction seemed kinda tame wrt to Wave if you're town here, since from town!seph's POV, there's a dude who's lying about your role in MYLO and is trying to get you lynched. And you respond by saying 'hey no, skitter, his claim is sketchy and this is why you should believe me'.

Like you voted him and 'threw down the gauntlet' *after* your appeal to me ,and I dunno. I guess I'd expect a more visceral, knee-jerk reaction of 'you're lying' if you're town here.
My priority was not laying down a vote, its defending myself and arguing wave!scum which is what I've been doing. Me voting Wave doesn't really accomplish anything if everyone believes his claim.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1318 (isolation #92) » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:13 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Nexus
:

Is the only possibility 3 days? I'm for an extension but this would make the day end when I'm traveling (22nd) and won't be able to post much.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1319 (isolation #93) » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:14 am

Post by Sephiroth »

oh wait no its the 27th. Thats actually fine, sorry.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1335 (isolation #94) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:03 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1324, skitter30 wrote: OK, so you're saying that you *hadn't* realized we were in MYLO at that point?
Correct.
In post 1324, skitter30 wrote: Right, so this is the tricky bit, trying to figure out if you didn't realize, or if you 'didn't realize'.
My two cents on this topic is that if I were scum, fully aware that we are in MYLO, and fully aware that TIAM is scum likely to die, what benefit do I gain from 'not realizing' its MYLO and coming out swinging on the bus? It would be a much more effective play to acknowledge that we may be in MYLO and make the same post about TIAM without voting, gaining some towncred on the way. Its WIFOM but I mean, it just doesn't give scum much benefit to purposefully not acknowledge the game state here.
In post 1324, skitter30 wrote: LIke why would scum go through the effort of trying to defend him there? If he ended up getting lynched, they'd be tied inextricably to him. (Btw, whoever scum is, I think you did a really good job distancing; I tend to scumhunt a lot through associatives and they've been practically worthless this game between the four of you lol)
You mean why would wavemode go through the trouble of defending TIAM? Perhaps he thought he could prevent the lynch based on the way people were responding to TIAM's meta yesterday, especially considering he was one of the main voices calling TIAM's behavior NAI and he is notably pretty damn good at convincing others that his view is correct. Maybe he figures you'll make this exact argument (if we want to get WIFOMy). And given that the timing of his crumb necessitates him thinking about a fake claim yesterday he knows that he has this gambit to fall back on if he comes close to being lynched. I think the situation the claim puts him in can outweigh the association IF the town buys the claim (I mean, this seems to be the case for you). All this to say, he can make the "why would I buddy" argument all the while simultaneously knowing in the back of his head that the association most likely won't get him lynched.
In post 1324, skitter30 wrote: And I totally feel you on the rational thing. You're right. I am holding you to a higher standard cuz, well from what I've seen this game, I think you're a pretty good player.
I've thoroughly enjoyed playing with you and with several people in this game. Despite the degree of randomness and non-optimal play, this has been a really enjoyable game, especially considering I haven't played in a long time so this is a 'Comeback' game of sorts.
In post 1324, skitter30 wrote: I mean, from your POV he should be confscum for doing this ... it isn't exactly an OMGUS situation - or at least, what I'd apply that term to. (Like I'd call OMGUS to be like mid-day 2 I call you scum and you retaliate by scumreading me). I'd call this more of a 1v1 since the two of you are in a direct cc here. Like that's what I was kinda missing from that post .... yes you mention that he's scum, but he should literally be confscum from your POV here and you just seem to lacking that conviction I guess.
Sorry, using OMGUS was an egregious misuse of mafia terminology. I was more referring to the idea of an angry/kneejerk 'IM VANILLA YOURE LYING" vote. My primary feeling after the claim was one of surprise. Then respect for Wave for making the play he did. I wasn't angry or indignant so that didn't come through in my post.

I was more interested in speaking to
other
reasons the claim didn't hold up beyond shouting I'M VANILLA. From any perspective that isn't mine, wave is only confscum if I can prove his claim is false. I guess my point is, my conviction that wave is scum because I'm vanilla is a meaningless one to harp on since no one else has that information or is convinced when I say it.
In post 1324, skitter30 wrote: Like this is true .... but from your POV he's confscum so we need to lynch him to win. Like you voting wave and convincing us is kinda important for that to happen. Yes defending yourself is important, but I guess what I'm saying is that from your POV, you have confscum, and you seem less interested in pursuing that than making sure you don't get lynched.
If I'm lynched, we lose. And at the time I posted, things seemed to be leaning towards me getting lynched. I think it makes more sense to focus on debunking the claim and defending myself from what I view as a likely lynch. Up until Flubber's post I was pretty certain I was done since everyone else seemed to buy the claim. If people wind up not lynching me because I convinced them the claim is fake, Wave being lynched is 100% gonna happen. I dunno, I think my tone and approach makes sense here although I will acknowledge that a lot of players would respond more like you expected.
In post 1324, skitter30 wrote: Like if you contrast your behavior with Serg (had a guilty on Two) or wave (claims to have an effective guilty on you), both of them approached it from the angle of 'hey I found confscum and we need to lynch them'. You're approaching it more from 'hey this is why we shouldn't lynch me and also hey look at conf!scum wave'. Like it's more survivalistic and less 'let's lynch the confscum', which I tend to think is more likely to come from scum. Like you're focused on making sure *you* aren't the lynch today instead of lynching scum. Like I get that if you're town we lose .... but we also lose if we don't lynch confscum wave today.
If I'm scum and I get lynched, the game continues. If I'm town and get lynched, we instantly lose. One could argue town has more reason to be survivalist here than scum, but more importantly I don't think focusing first on not getting lynched is bad play from either alignment. And as I mentioned above, if I DO succeed in defending myself the natural consequence is lynching the fakeclaiming conf!scum. Win-Win.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1369 (isolation #95) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:10 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1359, skitter30 wrote: I think the plan was to lynch outside of Two and have the vig/SK shoot at Two and have the scum doc heal him, but claim today that he had blocked Chip and proven his role and survived.

This also explains why scum!wave doesn't care about tying himself to Two here - if he could get Seph/Serg lynched yesterday, Two wouldn't be dead cuz he'd be healed.
This is
extremely
cheeky and relies on being able to control the vigshot. Wave's posts through roughly 1120-1130 are VERY telling in this context. The whole thing relies on scum team being able to accurately predict where the vigshot is going while simultaneously making sure TIAM is not lynched.

Implosions initial post of the day leaves both options open (not convinced by hammer, thinks explanation is scummy then waffles over that point). I guess my only hold up here is if Implosion and Wave are the scum team, I don't see Implosion coming in and having such a weaksauce first post. I would expect him to go all in on TIAM scum if Wave was going all in on TIAM town. Again to be fair, implosion was a lurker early game and a fence sitter often throughout the rest of the day so a fence-sitty post is consistent while a hardline stance would be in contrast to the rest of his game.
In post 1359, skitter30 wrote: Actually, I think they just win overnight because we mislynched and they knew where the vig shot would go so they could heal it. Mislynch yesterday is 4-3, and a kill overnight with the vig shot healed means we're 3-3 today and they win.
Even if they don't heal the vig shot, the vig shot takes out TIAM and puts us at 3-2, when Wave can still easily use his fakeclaim to win the game if people believe him.

I feel pretty strongly Implosion is the last scum. I don't see why Flubberscum would ever come out against Wave's claim. If wavescum convinces skittertown and implosiontown, its game over. There is no way flubs posting today happens unless hes town. 1347 from implosion feels like desperation time to me.
wavemode wrote:We could have gotten up support for a Seph or implosion lynch in time, and if they're town that's all I as scum would need to win the game.
I'm pretty sure I've been consistently town read all game and implosion is your partner so you wouldn't be pushing for an implosion lynch. So you would've had the choices of 2 conftown and semi-conf flub. OR me. You keep saying I've been scummy for a while but never really make a case to that effect. The belief that I was widely viewed as scummy is just false and I don't know where youre getting that.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1370 (isolation #96) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:22 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1364, wavemode wrote:But I still didn't want to put myself in a risky situation. I don't like playing scum and I don't like putting myself in stressful situations when I am scum. And you think in this game I do that for TIAM of all people? Seriously, go read that game and its mafia thread and come back here and say in earnest that this is EVER something I do as scum.
In post 1364, wavemode wrote: I mean, do you realize that
players on this site have become so meta-aware
of that kind of thing that real scum almost never do it?
It seems to me that your meta makes this the perfect end game move to make since you can make this very argument, but what do I know.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1372 (isolation #97) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:14 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I'm just saying, people know your meta and MS is a very meta aware site. The fact that the move goes contrary to your usual meta is what makes it a good move because you can then make the argument that its against your meta.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1373 (isolation #98) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:15 am

Post by Sephiroth »

AKA what you're doing now.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1379 (isolation #99) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:06 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1374, wavemode wrote: See, this is the difference between you and me, Seph. I actually know my role and that you're scum.
Is this some sort of thing where if you say it 10 times it becomes true?
In post 1374, wavemode wrote: I spent plenty of time yesterday casing you as scum (so I'm not sure why you're now saying I haven't...), but today all I present are the facts, which is that you claimed vanilla townie but I got a result of not vanilla on you.
'Casing' is a VERY generous way of describing your behavior towards me yesterday. Do you mean mentioning in two unrelated posts that I could be scum, then getting in a 1v1 with me over TIAM being scum and me thinking you're scum for defending him? You didn't start doing anything remotely close to casing me or arguing for me being scum until AFTER I accused you of being partners with TIAM. I'd also note that your arguments yesterday made no sense since you accused me of a chainsaw attack (which it was not, by definition) and then proceeded to say that TIAMs meta was a town tell when it was at best a null tell and more accurately a scum tell since his play here is very different than his quickhammer as town in the other game. Your defense of that point just reads like you didnt expect someone to actually pay attention to the details. I mean, 'theyre different games'? Come on dude. You know full well that meta relies on the differences in a way people play games. I can't believe you seriously tried to make that point. Plus, even if I were to concede that you were 'casing' me yesterday (I don't; you weren't), the fact remains that I was widely town read. The lack of easy mislynches remaining is what necessitates the gambit in the first place so this is a pretty important point.
In post 1374, wavemode wrote: Like, I know you aren't town so this is hard to wrap your head around
You keep saying this and things like it and I guess it makes you feel tough or something but I just want to point out that I've played many games of mafia and played both alignmements before. Regardless of my alignment here, its silly to keep saying this.
In post 1374, wavemode wrote: ...but what sense would it actually make for me to point to one of your posts and go "hmm I don't like Seph's tone here, it's scummy" or some shit like that. What would it prove? What would it change, for me to start PbPA'ing you and get into a war of words as you try to pick apart my points? If I know for a fact that you're scum, that's all I need lol. Anything else is just gravy.
Part of being good town is convincing others you're right and you know that. Thats exactly why I responded to your claim as I did. You're acting like you can make your claim and ride off into the sunset when there isnt any independent reason for anyone to believe you. The game is on the line, and the best you can do is 'i have a guilty lol'?
In post 1374, wavemode wrote: "the move" lmao. You mean all of my play throughout this entire game? And by "the argument", you mean self-meta arguments that I literally did not mention until today after skitter started digging into them herself (and found, on her own, games where my play identically matches my play here), because I considered them irrelevant? (Because, as I say again, I know for a fact you're scum. My meta should have been irrelevant to that - ideally, all I should need to present are the facts.)/quote]
By move I mean fakeclaiming results on me and by argument I mean your last ditch effort to save yourself when it looks like you're going to be lynched. Are we supposed to be impressed that you saved your last card to play when you thought you were on your last chance? Regardless of when it happened, you're employing meta as a defense against your behavior being scum motivated and we've already established that the claim was premeditated so I don't think its at all unreasonable to think that your meta contradicting the move is something you've considered and planned to fall back on if necessary.
In post 1374, wavemode wrote: Also, "people know your meta" is a pretty funny comment because, who in this game even knows my meta?
I guess not that many, but you are known as a strong town player and YOU know about your meta and therefore know that your meta will support your argument regardless of who knows it.
In post 1375, wavemode wrote:The only really telling thing here is that you recognize that everything I've done in this game matches my town meta to a tee, and completely goes against anything I've ever even conceived doing as scum, and you truly can not point to a single thing contrary. Your only response is "lel, your meta argument is perfect because that was your plan all along."
All I'm acknowledging is your claim that you don't like to put yourself in stressful situations as scum. That whole business about matching your town meta to a tee or whatever is putting some serious words in my mouth, bruv.
In post 1378, wavemode wrote:(Seph on the other hand started attacking
me
for voting Lalendra the very next day... but I digress.)
Oh yes, I certainly attacked you purely for voting lalendra and that attack had zero to do with the context and timing of the vote. Are you just trying to throw in an as many subtle jabs/misreps as you can?
wavemode wrote:I DID NOT ASK TO BE INVESTIGATED, I SIMPLY SHOWED NO RELUCTANCE TO IT, HYPOTHETICALLY.
In post 1159, wavemode wrote:Like I said, it doesn't matter whether Chip is SK or not right now, so you should just pick someone to clear/incriminate.
Preferably me
but you already said you wouldn't so
In post 1159, wavemode wrote:
Preferably me
You didn't 'show no reluctance', you stated that your preference was that you were investigated.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1380 (isolation #100) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:09 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I screwed up the quotes, sorry =/
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1382 (isolation #101) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:27 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1381, wavemode wrote: I mean, this whole paragraph sort of just focuses on defending yourself against points I made against you yesterday, in a completely different context, when I thought TIAM was town. Not sure why you're hard defending yourself against all of that now, even though nobody is trying to argue those things against you now
I'm pointing out a) you never cased me and b) your arguments weren't sound to begin with. The fact that you're claiming to have cased me is what I'm negating. You basically just got mad when I said you were TIAMs partner and now thats 'casing' me. This is all to address the argument that you made, that you could've easily mislynched me instead of fakeclaiming. I was widely regarded as town and there was no way in hell what you were pushing previously could be even considered a case, let alone a convincing one.
In post 1381, wavemode wrote:
In post 1379, Sephiroth wrote:Part of being good town is convincing others you're right and you know that. Thats exactly why I responded to your claim as I did. You're acting like you can make your claim and ride off into the sunset when there isnt any independent reason for anyone to believe you. The game is on the line, and the best you can do is 'i have a guilty lol'?
Right, and making a bunch of tone points against you wouldn't have proved anything or convinced anyone. Despite what you keep trying to convince people, my play has indeed been entirely consistent with my role, and that should speak for itself. In contrast, if I were scum and knew that my play has been inconsistent, then I would be trying to tear you apart in other ways. So... what actually is your point here, besides further proving my point?
I'm refuting your point that theres no reason to fake claim in this situation, as above. And asking to be investigated is not consistent with your role at all. I also think its extremely telling that you weren't willing to throw your weight behind a TIAM wagon but you were completely willing to ask for him to be vigged (a point I brought up WAY earlier but is now extra relevant)
In post 1381, wavemode wrote:
In post 1379, Sephiroth wrote:Oh yes, I certainly attacked you purely for voting lalendra and that attack had zero to do with the context and timing of the vote. Are you just trying to throw in an as many subtle jabs/misreps as you can?
That's funny, because you're actually misrepping what
I
said. Where exactly did I say that your attack of me had nothing to do with those things?
Okay, yeah you offhandedly mentioned me attacking someone
for voting someone that I voted
, with no further context, and didn't think that would paint me as hypocritical. Saying I attacked you just because you voted Lalendra is false. I don't see any point in including this information sans context except to falsely portray me as inconsistent.
In post 1381, wavemode wrote:
In post 1379, Sephiroth wrote:You didn't 'show no reluctance', you stated that your preference was that you were investigated.
...which shows no reluctance. So, thanks for agreeing with me? And I know no matter how many times I say this to you you will conveniently forget it the next time the topic comes back up, but for the umpteenth time, I said that rhetorically. You're conveniently missing the part where he already said he was not going to investigate me.
Theres a difference between showing no reluctance and showing no reluctance while simultaneously saying you prefer something. You're trying to act as if you HAD to say you preferred it in order to show no reluctance but thats just false. You consciously made a decision to, instead of just listing other people who would make good targets, say "PREFERABLY ME".

And I don't think I missed you saying it was rhetorical? As I previously mentioned I don't think a VC takes that risk when its already been said that they arent the target. I didn't respond the second time you brought it up since I'd already addressed that point. So now who is conveniently forgetting things?

A VC in that scenario just lists some names and moves on with their life, they don't ask to be investigated.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1383 (isolation #102) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:27 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1381, wavemode wrote: I mean, this whole paragraph sort of just focuses on defending yourself against points I made against you yesterday, in a completely different context, when I thought TIAM was town. Not sure why you're hard defending yourself against all of that now, even though nobody is trying to argue those things against you now
I'm pointing out a) you never cased me and b) your arguments weren't sound to begin with. The fact that you're claiming to have cased me is what I'm negating. You basically just got mad when I said you were TIAMs partner and now thats 'casing' me. This is all to address the argument that you made, that you could've easily mislynched me instead of fakeclaiming. I was widely regarded as town and there was no way in hell what you were pushing previously could be even considered a case, let alone a convincing one.
In post 1381, wavemode wrote:
In post 1379, Sephiroth wrote:Part of being good town is convincing others you're right and you know that. Thats exactly why I responded to your claim as I did. You're acting like you can make your claim and ride off into the sunset when there isnt any independent reason for anyone to believe you. The game is on the line, and the best you can do is 'i have a guilty lol'?
Right, and making a bunch of tone points against you wouldn't have proved anything or convinced anyone. Despite what you keep trying to convince people, my play has indeed been entirely consistent with my role, and that should speak for itself. In contrast, if I were scum and knew that my play has been inconsistent, then I would be trying to tear you apart in other ways. So... what actually is your point here, besides further proving my point?
I'm refuting your point that theres no reason to fake claim in this situation, as above. And asking to be investigated is not consistent with your role at all. I also think its extremely telling that you weren't willing to throw your weight behind a TIAM wagon but you were completely willing to ask for him to be vigged (a point I brought up WAY earlier but is now extra relevant)
In post 1381, wavemode wrote:
In post 1379, Sephiroth wrote:Oh yes, I certainly attacked you purely for voting lalendra and that attack had zero to do with the context and timing of the vote. Are you just trying to throw in an as many subtle jabs/misreps as you can?
That's funny, because you're actually misrepping what
I
said. Where exactly did I say that your attack of me had nothing to do with those things?
Okay, yeah you offhandedly mentioned me attacking someone
for voting someone that I voted
, with no further context, and didn't think that would paint me as hypocritical. Saying I attacked you just because you voted Lalendra is false. I don't see any point in including this information sans context except to falsely portray me as inconsistent.
In post 1381, wavemode wrote:
In post 1379, Sephiroth wrote:You didn't 'show no reluctance', you stated that your preference was that you were investigated.
...which shows no reluctance. So, thanks for agreeing with me? And I know no matter how many times I say this to you you will conveniently forget it the next time the topic comes back up, but for the umpteenth time, I said that rhetorically. You're conveniently missing the part where he already said he was not going to investigate me.
Theres a difference between showing no reluctance and showing no reluctance while simultaneously saying you prefer something. You're trying to act as if you HAD to say you preferred it in order to show no reluctance but thats just false. You consciously made a decision to, instead of just listing other people who would make good targets, say "PREFERABLY ME".

And I don't think I missed you saying it was rhetorical? As I previously mentioned I don't think a VC takes that risk when its already been said that they arent the target. I didn't respond the second time you brought it up since I'd already addressed that point. So now who is conveniently forgetting things?

A VC in that scenario just lists some names and moves on with their life, they don't ask to be investigated.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1385 (isolation #103) » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:36 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1384, wavemode wrote:
In post 1383, Sephiroth wrote:And asking to be investigated is not consistent with your role at all.
Right, that's why I didn't.
Butcha did.
In post 1384, wavemode wrote: The convenient memory loss returns lol. I already addressed this yesterday at length, but sure let's give it a go again. Now, try to put yourself in a town mindset Seph. If we lynched incorrectly yesterday, what would that mean? Well, it would mean that we would absolutely need to vig correctly, or else the game would be over. On the
other
hand, if we lynched
correctly
yesterday, it would mean the vig would have one shot to get wrong and the game would not be over. So, why in the name of sweet Pete would we not then use that shot on someone who is a huge lategame liability (he had just quickhammered Lalendra for fuck's sake) while there was still a possibility of him having fakeclaimed roleblocker? Okay, so there's always the possibility of a scum doctor - BUT WHAT WOULD THAT CHANGE? If there's a scum doctor, scum roleblocker, scum jailkeeper, you name it - it doesn't matter *who* we target with the vig shot, they will protect the person if they're scum!! Like, I find it hilarious that you keep making this point as though you simply don't understand good vig strategy, even though you've really been playing a lot longer than I have so you ought to have at least a basic grasp of it.
I'm sorry but going down a townie that late in the game without full knowledge of the setup or how many scum we had is completely stupid. Theres no way a player like you confidently decides we should purposefully go down a number when so much of the game is up in the air. The only way you confidently make this post is if you don't sincerely believe TIAM is town (ie you know hes scum and him being targetted by NK is much more valuable than being lynched).
In post 1384, wavemode wrote: Which would show implicit reluctance to it being me, which is a much bigger risk and you know it.
I'm sorry but thats dumb. Naming people you would like to be investigated in no way shows implicit reluctance to being investigated yourself. That argument only works if the default behavior is for townie to ask to be investigated in that scenario, which it is not.
In post 1384, wavemode wrote:
, they don't ask to be investigated.
Right, that's why I didn't.
Butcha did tho.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1391 (isolation #104) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:01 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1386, wavemode wrote:"nuh-uh" "yuh-huh" lmao
let's call it what it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
In post 1386, wavemode wrote:
In post 1385, Sephiroth wrote:I'm sorry but going down a townie that late in the game without full knowledge of the setup or how many scum we had is completely stupid. Theres no way a player like you confidently decides we should purposefully go down a number when so much of the game is up in the air. The only way you confidently make this post is if you don't sincerely believe TIAM is town (ie you know hes scum and him being targetted by NK is much more valuable than being lynched).
What are you even writing here. We already knew there couldn't be more than 3 scum.
Maybe you knew that?
In post 1386, wavemode wrote: And, uh, are you forgetting we had just massclaimed? lol.
You mean the mass claim where two people faked their claim? I don't see how thats relevant to the number of scum remaining anyhow.
In post 1386, wavemode wrote: Like, you're actually just scum in this game, so I know you're probably being ignorant on purpose, but Seph, you do realize just vigging by one's own personal feelings, is how we got a Dany shot here? And how we got no TIAM shot? Like, in this very game we are playing right now, we have clear evidence of that being an
extremely
bad strategy. Yet still you argue this point like your life depends on it. Well, I suppose it does :lol:
I'm sorry I disagree with vigging someone you think is town. The choice to vig someone you suspect is a different thing entirely then choosing not to kill someone you feel is town so I'm not sure what your point is here.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1393 (isolation #105) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:19 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Have you heard of multiball before?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1395 (isolation #106) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:55 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

I'm saying that you should never be willing to vig someone that you feel strongly is town (strongly enough to defend balls to the wall) when you don't completely know the setup.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1455 (isolation #107) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:55 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

GG ladies and gentlemen
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1457 (isolation #108) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:56 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

<3 wave. I felt bad spouting bullshit at you but what else to do in my shoes? Surprisingly it wasn't that relevant to Skitters decision.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1460 (isolation #109) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:58 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

I debated posting this afternoon but I swear anything i said would've been bad for me.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1463 (isolation #110) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:03 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

I almost feel bad, you caught me so good. I was sitting there kicking myself for not sensing something was up and faking not vanilla.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1465 (isolation #111) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:03 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

Also let me just say the quick hammer caught me my surprise too
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1467 (isolation #112) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:05 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

I didn't realize how pockety I was until you pointed it out skit. That was like, really really bad. Gotta watch that in the future.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1496 (isolation #113) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:06 pm

Post by Sephiroth »

I thought you played really well tbh. Town is hard.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1512 (isolation #114) » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:50 am

Post by Sephiroth »

In post 1508, skitter30 wrote:Wave, you were awesome and like bled town. Idk why I wouldn't let myself see it :/

In post 1498, Nexus wrote:
wavemode - Town Vanilla Cop - Lynched day 4
Sergtacos - Town Gunsmith - Endgamed
skitter30 - Vanilla Townie - Endgamed
Flubbernugget - Vanilla Townie - Endgamed


Congratulations to:
implosion - Mafia Goon - survived and won
Sephiroth - Mafia Ninja - survived and won
TwoInAMillion - Mafia Goon - won in death
But you were a *full* vanilla cop?????

At some point I had forgotten you had claimed ods-night, and wanted to no-lynch, have you check Flubber, and Serg check implosion. They couldn't kill both of you, and so whoever lived would clear or guilty one of flubber/implosion. Like no matter who died, and whatever the alignment of flubber/wave, we'd either have a clear (so three clears would make the team obvious), or a guilty.

I didn't suggest it though, cuz you claimed odd-night :facepalm:
Dude yeah this was pretty shocking to me to find out because I had a similar moment in scum chat where I was like 'oh shit NL is actually the optimal play' until implosion reminded me about the odd night. I KNEW there was something fishy about that odd night! I guess Wave had one last gambit planned? And maybe thats why he seemed overly open to a NL in that one post earlier? He knew he could break the game on a NL but I guess at that point no one would believe him if he changed his claim again?
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1513 (isolation #115) » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:51 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Honestly I'm very surprised that Wave didn't just claim full vanilla cop, I don't see how the half claim benefits him unless he was worried skitter wouldnt buy another full investigative balance-wise.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1514 (isolation #116) » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:02 am

Post by Sephiroth »

I also just want to throw out that I'm legitimately embarrassed by the arguments I was throwing at wave but I had no choice but to argue wavescum and I guess it was enough.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1516 (isolation #117) » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:25 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Reading back the scumchat, implosion and I had some very good synergy. Our playstyles lined up really well to be scum together.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1517 (isolation #118) » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:38 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Also reading back the scum chat, I underestimated Wave HARD. That almost did me in.
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
User avatar
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sephiroth
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 25, 2007
Location: Nibelheim

Post Post #1519 (isolation #119) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:09 am

Post by Sephiroth »

Yeah forgot to mention, thanks to Nexus for modding! Great setup and game =)
You are just a muppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain.
Locked

Return to “Completed Mini Normal Games”