Though one thing I find interesting is that you only explicitly opposed this after NSG mentioned voting the refusals, which makes it seem as though you're not completely opposed to massclaiming itself. Is that correct?
Maybe the real Mafia was the friends we made along the way
Last edited by Not_Mafia on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
I'm guessing you haven't read the game and probably never will? Why even sign up to play?
In post 150, garaputo wrote:If you are prepared to believe that the scum have no way to kill people, why don't we just forget the game thread and go play a nice game of bridge?
I believe scum's method of killing is mislynching through lies and deceit. Though the only other nightless games I've played have been popcorn, I'm not aware of any where scum still gets their factional kill. Kinda defeats the purpose of nightlessness doesn't it?
Maybe the real Mafia was the friends we made along the way
In post 151, Radical Rat wrote:Though one thing I find interesting is that you only explicitly opposed this after NSG mentioned voting the refusals, which makes it seem as though you're not completely opposed to massclaiming itself. Is that correct?
I don't think it's likely. The mod specifically lists that they have been given flavor claims, not fake claims. That gives me the impression that they are on their own.
the claim will likely allow the scum to zero in on the right folks to kill.
What have you said that acknowledges or contradicts this?
I'd say that it's information their already have. A confirmed-town Innocent Child is already someone that scum will target for elimination. Our voice is our greatest weapon and scumm will silence the loudest voices first. We are all already targets, the surprise mass claim eliminates their ability to camouflage.
In post 143, garaputo wrote:Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.
This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now
Neither do scum. Isn't it to the scum's advantage to keep town blindly guessing and pointing fingers until we get to a Day X LyLo or MyLo situation?
This could be a mostly vanilla game or a role-madness game. Neither Town nor Scum knows that at this point, so scum is at bigger risk claiming today then waiting until a few flips happen.
In post 136, Kublai Khan wrote:"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.
ive played in like 150 games and none of them did it
the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.
It's certainly not against the "spirit of the game". The spirit of the game is to play towards win condition. If mass claiming helps that, then not mass claiming goes against the spirit of the game.
I'm town and if we assume that UC Voyager is town, then two non-vanilla roles have been outed, giving scum beneficial targets. So, does your argument still hold up?
This logic is flawed.
1) From a neutral point of view, it's not clear why you or UCV are town, let alone that you are not vanilla.
I mean. From a neutral point of view he's a mod confirmed desperado IC.
Derp on me for forgetting that Desperado IC part, but the lotic applies still to the collective form of "you" there.
This is bugging me. Did you also forget that UC Voyager is mod-confirmed to be non-vanilla as well?
Scum can hide behind anything. It's definitely possible. Gaining town's favor is highly beneficial so scum can and will sometimes do things that hurt them in hopes that they can benefit from that credit later on in the game.
Mass claiming here doesn't help scum. I was originally hesitant because I forgot it's a nightless game. Nightless game makes it rather favorable to town. So while I wouldn't expect scum to support the lynch, some players in such a situation would definitely choose to hide their intentions with the majority. It is the 'default' scum play. We are very likely looking at 1-2 on the let's not claim side and the remainder (if any) on the let's claim side. Therefore being in favor or against is by itself not AI unfortunately.
I don't know how to interpret wisdom's posts so far. I want to say he's scum but I'm likely influenced by bias. He doesn't seem the talkative type which always makes it harder. Guess it comes down to whether his confidence is faked by scum, or it's from a townie which generally speaking means they aren't afraid of being scumread.
In post 136, Kublai Khan wrote:"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.
ive played in like 150 games and none of them did it
the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.
It's certainly not against the "spirit of the game". The spirit of the game is to play towards win condition. If mass claiming helps that, then not mass claiming goes against the spirit of the game.
I'm town and if we assume that UC Voyager is town, then two non-vanilla roles have been outed, giving scum beneficial targets. So, does your argument still hold up?
This logic is flawed.
1) From a neutral point of view, it's not clear why you or UCV are town, let alone that you are not vanilla.
I mean. From a neutral point of view he's a mod confirmed desperado IC.
Derp on me for forgetting that Desperado IC part, but the lotic applies still to the collective form of "you" there.
This is bugging me. Did you also forget that UC Voyager is mod-confirmed to be non-vanilla as well?
Again that doesn't mean UC is town. Also UC wasn't outed so much as has stepped forward.
In post 161, BuJaber wrote:Scum can hide behind anything. It's definitely possible. Gaining town's favor is highly beneficial so scum can and will sometimes do things that hurt them in hopes that they can benefit from that credit later on in the game.
Mass claiming here doesn't help scum. I was originally hesitant because I forgot it's a nightless game. Nightless game makes it rather favorable to town. So while I wouldn't expect scum to support the lynch, some players in such a situation would definitely choose to hide their intentions with the majority. It is the 'default' scum play. We are very likely looking at 1-2 on the let's not claim side and the remainder (if any) on the let's claim side. Therefore being in favor or against is by itself not AI unfortunately.
I don't know how to interpret wisdom's posts so far. I want to say he's scum but I'm likely influenced by bias. He doesn't seem the talkative type which always makes it harder. Guess it comes down to whether his confidence is faked by scum, or it's from a townie which generally speaking means they aren't afraid of being scumread.
You are stating the conclusion without support with "Mass claiming here doesn't help scum"
The only way you are certain of this is if you are scum, and in any possible case here, I don't trust this statement.
In post 157, Kublai Khan wrote:In post 145, Wisdom wrote:
In post 143, garaputo wrote:
Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.
This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now
Neither do scum. Isn't it to the scum's advantage to keep town blindly guessing and pointing fingers until we get to a Day X LyLo or MyLo situation?
This could be a mostly vanilla game or a role-madness game. Neither Town nor Scum knows that at this point, so scum is at bigger risk claiming today then waiting until a few flips happen.
Same argument. Unless you are scum, you have no idea what the scum know or don't. The mod has explicitly stated "Power Roles were decided by flavour, VTs were then randomised from a list of characters, the left over characters were then given to scum as fakeclaims,
it is impossible to break the game via flavour"
In your best case scenario, the town tell the truth, the scum lie, and pick bad lies. Even in that best case scenario the scum gain more correct information than the town does.
In post 157, Kublai Khan wrote:In post 145, Wisdom wrote:
In post 143, garaputo wrote:
Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.
This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now
Neither do scum. Isn't it to the scum's advantage to keep town blindly guessing and pointing fingers until we get to a Day X LyLo or MyLo situation?
This could be a mostly vanilla game or a role-madness game. Neither Town nor Scum knows that at this point, so scum is at bigger risk claiming today then waiting until a few flips happen.
Same argument. Unless you are scum, you have no idea what the scum know or don't. The mod has explicitly stated "Power Roles were decided by flavour, VTs were then randomised from a list of characters, the left over characters were then given to scum as fakeclaims,
it is impossible to break the game via flavour"
In your best case scenario, the town tell the truth, the scum lie, and pick bad lies. Even in that best case scenario the scum gain more correct information than the town does.
Good point but lies are harder to tell than the truth. I suspect the mass claim intention that comes from Khan - a confirmed townie, is that it forces scum to lie, because if they refuse to participate after the majority decide it's the way to go it looks bad on them. Forcing scum to post and lie is good because one of the best scum weapons is their ability to lurk along without saying too much so as to remain in the not alignment indicative zone of posting.
Wisdom what are your specific reasons for wanting me lynched?
In post 157, Kublai Khan wrote:In post 145, Wisdom wrote:
In post 143, garaputo wrote:
Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.
This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now
Neither do scum. Isn't it to the scum's advantage to keep town blindly guessing and pointing fingers until we get to a Day X LyLo or MyLo situation?
This could be a mostly vanilla game or a role-madness game. Neither Town nor Scum knows that at this point, so scum is at bigger risk claiming today then waiting until a few flips happen.
Same argument. Unless you are scum, you have no idea what the scum know or don't. The mod has explicitly stated "Power Roles were decided by flavour, VTs were then randomised from a list of characters, the left over characters were then given to scum as fakeclaims,
it is impossible to break the game via flavour"
In your best case scenario, the town tell the truth, the scum lie, and pick bad lies. Even in that best case scenario the scum gain more correct information than the town does.
Good point but lies are harder to tell than the truth. I suspect the mass claim intention that comes from Khan - a confirmed townie, is that it forces scum to lie, because if they refuse to participate after the majority decide it's the way to go it looks bad on them. Forcing scum to post and lie is good because one of the best scum weapons is their ability to lurk along without saying too much so as to remain in the not alignment indicative zone of posting.
Wisdom what are your specific reasons for wanting me lynched?
I reject the notion that it looks bad for anyone to not participate in this plan. My point about logistics has been thus: this plan *forces* nothing other than a reaction to the plan, and then we go play mafia again and decide who to vote.
Oh wow let's go home everyone wisdom doesn't need any help.
Well I've guaranteed my enjoyment for the game. I no longer care what we do I'm gonna have fun in any case seeing people trying to justify their wrong read on me. Funny how the most experience always tunnel the hardest.
I hope to god I don't become this biased as my experience grows.
Garaputo it is specifically this reaction that is why you're town. Scum don't have the privilege of rejecting the mass claim as strongly as you are.
Oh wow let's go home everyone wisdom doesn't need any help.
Well I've guaranteed my enjoyment for the game. I no longer care what we do I'm gonna have fun in any case seeing people trying to justify their wrong read on me. Funny how the most experience always tunnel the hardest.
I hope to god I don't become this biased as my experience grows.
Garaputo it is specifically this reaction that is why you're town. Scum don't have the privilege of rejecting the mass claim as strongly as you are.
You are reaching the correct conclusion for the wrong reason. I'm town but it's entirely in my scum range to do this.
Also, it may not be obvious since I didn't play most of my games on this site, but I've played hundreds of mafia games in forums online, or at least between 100 and 200 (I've lost count).
I'll take your word for it but really there are subtle things that we can't fake. I'm not saying I wouldn't be fooled by scummy you; we won't know until we try. I am saying that we all like to think we do the same things we do as town the same way when scum but the reality is that's a very difficult thing to do and oftentimes subtle differences would give us away.
