Open 704: Switch (Game Over)


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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:32 pm

Post by Raya36 »

:facepalm:

I've never seen anything good ever come from someone trying to guess the scumteam D1. Definitely hunt for scum but I don't see the point in all the meta and preflip associatives for the sake of trying to come up with the entire scum team.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:34 pm

Post by Raya36 »

Anyway, I'm going to bed. I'll finish my reread at some point tomorrow and post my thoughts. I can take this more seriously now that the holidays are over
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:41 pm

Post by Equinox »

Vote Count 1.08Maxous (2) - Sauce, havingfitz
mutantdevle (2) - Elmo TeH AzN, Maxous
Raya36 (2) - Mathdino, Not_Mafia
Bins (1) - Almost50
Elmo TeH AzN (1) - Bins
havingfitz (1) - Chip Butty
Not_Mafia (1) - Raya36
Sauce (1) - Lalendra

Not Voting (1) - mutantdevle


With 12 votes, it will take 7 to reach majority.

The deadline is Thursday, January 4, 2018, at 8:00 AM EST (UTC-5), which is in (expired on 2018-01-04 08:00:00).

Moderator CommentsElmo TeH AzN is on V/LA from December 24 to 30.
Last edited by Equinox on Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:15 am

Post by Almost50 »

VOTE: Raya

1-2-3-4 .. testing .. testing

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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:02 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 204, havingfitz wrote: Observation WRT Math’s read towards me this game:
– I seem good
– Math could agree with me being town
– Math has me as null-scum because of my interactions rubbing him the wrong way.

Considering I made no posts between Math’s 95 and 126…I don’t get the read change. And considering the only two posts I make between your 26 and 126 are 1) a post where I am town reading Lalendra and “probably” YOU and 2) and response to Chip that you say
please elaborate on what is now rubbing you the wrong way that I am null scum to you.
...and now scum to you post-post 204.
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:04 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 206, Not_Mafia wrote:I'm fine with a lynch on any of those 3
Useless as usual I see.
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:12 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 207, Mathdino wrote:To be more transparent, Raya's scum meta is to not really mention or interact with her teammates, and when asked for a read on them, she usually nulls.
This might be useful for finding her partners if she were to flip scum...but what is she doing that indicates SHE is scum?
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:36 am

Post by Lalendra »

I am having a hard time buying the case on Raya, she is a hard null for me atm.
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:41 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 231, havingfitz wrote:but what is she doing that indicates SHE is scum?
EEBWOP...

but what is she doing that indicates she IS scum?
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:56 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 214, Lalendra wrote:That wall post on page 7 seems manufactured, particularly the part where he said that it "will be interesting to see if Lalendra keeps up the pressure on Maxous"

I had literally one post about Maxous, which was an RVS vote. C'mon man
Kind of a misrep/misquote on Sauce.
You were still voting Maxous at this point and Sauce calls you out for doing the bare minimum. Doesn't say anything about "it will be interesting to see" and only uses the term pressure in conjunction with two other possibilities (w/ not at all or an equilibrium).
In post 183, Sauce wrote:Lalendra - is doing the bare minimum to keep the wagon afloat. It is most uncertain whether this is town or scum motivated. My read on her is independent of the posts others have expressed were alignment indicative.
Instead I rely solely on whether she keeps up the pressure on Maxous, not at all, or actively maintains an equilibrium somewhere in the middle
.
So try again, why you voting Sauce?
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:30 am

Post by Lalendra »

Again, because that bullet point is all about me putting "pressure" on Maxous, which I was not doing at any point.

"Bare minimum to keep the wagon afloat" - clearly keeping the wagon afloat was not my intention, I placed an RVS vote and just never bothered moving it because I generally don't change my votes unless we're close to lynch (Maxous isn't) or I find a better target (I haven't yet).

"My read on her is independent of the posts others have expressed were AI" - so, his read of me is based entirely on one RVS post?

"I rely solely on whether she keeps up the pressure on Maxous" - okay yes, I paraphrased this bit, but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that he's literally constructing his entire read of me
based on a single post in RVS.
If that's not the definition of tryharding I don't know what is.

And while we're on the topic, I'm glad Mathdino brought up how weird it is to have the playerlist divided into M/F when creating a readslist. There are so many other completely arbitrary ways to organize a readslist that it doesn't seem AI, per se, but it bugs the hell out of me. It didn't factor into my vote, but it is a very odd approach.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:32 am

Post by Lalendra »

It's just so strange to me that he based his read on an RVS vote, acknowledged that he isn't taking into account any other posts which others have considered AI, and implies that I was putting pressure on Maxous where there was none. And honestly, your defense of him pings me as weird as well; it rings hollow. Like I have a hard time believing that even you believe what you are saying.
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:35 am

Post by Lalendra »

And "keeping the wagon afloat" - there is no wagon on Maxous, you and Sauce are the only ones voting him, since I moved my vote. There is no wagon on Sauce, because at the moment I'm the only one voting him, though I'm hoping that will change. So what wagon am I trying to keep afloat? The one I placed one vote on in RVS and didn't talk about since, or the one that I hadn't yet moved to when he made that post?
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:14 am

Post by Maxous »

In post 198, Almost50 wrote:@Mathdino/mutant: I beg to differ. Sauce is probably town for that post for many reasons, but the one I'm going to out now is no scum would want to go against the flow and alienate themselves to everyone, and
especially so
the lone scumster.
i suppose i can see this, he's kinda begging for the vig and/or cop
In post 204, havingfitz wrote:Not a fan of the Maxous push on mutant but mutant response/s feel town.
meh?
In post 216, Raya36 wrote:Honestly townreading Sauce over that list where basically everyone was scum. I doubt mafia would be so obvious as to keep there options open like that. Could be sk too as some people mentioned but
I'm staying away from that since I don't have much sk hunting experience
.
hmm

maybe you are scummy
sounds like you really don't want the SK to shoot you
In post 221, Chip Butty wrote:I've looked at the ISOs of MD, NM, Raya, and A50 just now, but I still need to go back and do a proper readthrough.
so you've looked at the ISO's but you won't give thoughts until you read-through again?
you're being overly cautious about reads...which is particularly surprising given the aggression of your first post.
In post 224, Not_Mafia wrote:
In post 223, Raya36 wrote:Why are you trying so hard to put together a scumteam 9 pages into D1?
VOTE: Raya
yeah i can see where this is coming from
In post 225, Raya36 wrote:I've never seen anything good ever come from someone trying to guess the scumteam D1. Definitely hunt for scum but I don't see the point in all the meta and preflip associatives for the sake of trying to come up with the entire scum team.
@Raya:
ok, but are you suggesting Mathdino is scum because he's trying to force a scumteam so early?
or more likely to be scum at least

I like the recent above posts from lalendra

-

i'm probably working out of a {chip, raya, mutant, NM,
Sauce(?)
} pool here atm.

edit: eh, maybe not Sauce. i'll leave for him now
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:36 am

Post by Sauce »

In post 235, Lalendra wrote:Again, because that bullet point is all about me putting "pressure" on Maxous, which I was not doing at any point.

"Bare minimum to keep the wagon afloat" - clearly keeping the wagon afloat was not my intention, I placed an RVS vote and just never bothered moving it because
I generally don't change my votes unless we're close to lynch
(Maxous isn't) or I find a better target (I haven't yet).
I can think of exactly one townie reason for such a reluctance to change votes, and a bunch of anti-town reasons, but the town reason is pretty good: If you random vote and don't change votes until close to lynch, and furthermore say that this is normal for you then there's a high chance of a townie asking you why in a constructive criticism kind of way. Upon which you can get a townread on that person. Do you have a townread on me, because if not I will vote you.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:54 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 235, Lalendra wrote:Again, because that bullet point is all about me putting "pressure" on Maxous, which I was not doing at any point.
was about trying to sort you out and basing it on how you proceeded with your pressure on Maxous. It’s clear. You are trying to make it something it is not. He says he is going to base his read on you on whther you keep up the (bare minimum) pressure you are exerting, not at all…or some equilibrium bs. And while you say you were not pressuring Maxous at any point you would be wrong. You may not have been pressuring him very much (bareminimum) but I would argue a vote on it’s own in absence of any other factors is a form of pressure. I.e. you were pressuring Maxous.
In post 235, Lalendra wrote:"Bare minimum to keep the wagon afloat" - clearly keeping the wagon afloat was not my intention, I placed an RVS vote and just never bothered moving it because I generally don't change my votes unless we're close to lynch (Maxous isn't) or I find a better target (I haven't yet).
knowing your intention is difficult if you aren’t being clear.

So what is your read on Maxous at the moment?
In post 235, Lalendra wrote:"My read on her is independent of the posts others have expressed were AI" - so, his read of me is based entirely on one RVS post?
He isn’t saying what his read on you is. He is saying it will be determined on how you proceed. Not on your lone RVS vote that you left on Maxous for almost a week. smh…
In post 235, Lalendra wrote:"I rely solely on whether she keeps up the pressure on Maxous" - okay yes, I paraphrased this bit, but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that he's literally constructing his entire read of me
based on a single post in RVS.
If that's not the definition of tryharding I don't know what is.
No he is not…you are not reading/comprehending his post. Whether on purpose or not is tbd.
In post 235, Lalendra wrote:And while we're on the topic, I'm glad Mathdino brought up how weird it is to have the playerlist divided into M/F when creating a readslist. There are so many other completely arbitrary ways to organize a readslist that it doesn't seem AI, per se, but it bugs the hell out of me. It didn't factor into my vote, but it is a very odd approach.
Agreed. AI? I don’t think so. Why are you bringing it up? Shade?
In post 236, Lalendra wrote:It's just so strange to me that he based his read on an RVS vote, acknowledged that he isn't taking into account any other posts which others have considered AI, and implies that I was putting pressure on Maxous where there was none.

Misreps.
In post 236, Lalendra wrote:And honestly, your defense of him pings me as weird as well; it rings hollow. Like I have a hard time believing that even you believe what you are saying.
I’ve never been accused of being hollow regardless of my alignment. If you do not think I believe what I am saying you are obtuse.
In post 237, Lalendra wrote:And "keeping the wagon afloat" - there is no wagon on Maxous, you and Sauce are the only ones voting him, since I moved my vote.

When he made his post you and he were voting Maxous. Why are you speaking out of context? And incorrectly.
In post 237, Lalendra wrote:There is no wagon on Sauce, because at the moment I'm the only one voting him, though I'm hoping that will change. So what wagon am I trying to keep afloat? The one I placed one vote on in RVS and didn't talk about since, or the one that I hadn't yet moved to when he made that post?
Sauce is clearly referring to the wagon that existed at the time on Maxous. Again…why are you even commenting on this when you know what he meant?
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:56 am

Post by Lalendra »

In post 239, Sauce wrote:Do you have a townread on me, because if not I will vote you.
I just...what
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 am

Post by Bins »

In post 232, Lalendra wrote:I am having a hard time buying the case on Raya, she is a hard null for me atm.
Same, but she's dropped from town to null for me because I just didn't like her recent posts. She still hasn't done any scumhunting and while that really doesn't mean a lot to me, it seems like she's trying to dance around theory more than give gut reads. She was before though and I still have the hint of a townread based on that. She could've just got busy.



Not really reading Sauce's weird wall as SK [re: Math], but it could come from scum. I was initially inclined to townread it but what actually is the town motivation to make a post that troll-y? To look like you don't care to be the centre of attention? Idk, it's all to self-image-y for me to brush it off.
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 am

Post by Bins »

N_M self-hammers because he knows he can get away with it and still do nothing. It's very good when he rolls scum and can hide behind it. Similar idea.
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 am

Post by Lalendra »

I am commenting on it because it was a pointless argument. If you really want to vote me and/or insult me for not changing my stance, Fitz, or not townreading you, Sauce, then have at it. But I hope everyone else can see how backwards that logic is.
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:02 am

Post by Bins »

My readslist is somewhere like:

{Almost50, havingfitz}
{Lalendra, Mathdino}
----
{mutant, maxous}
N_M is on his own little island floating everywhere
{Raya, Sauce}
{Chip, Elmo}


I'm going to be fine voting any of the bottom four because I've POE'd it to those. Realized Raya is a little lower because my townreads at this point are pretty strong.
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:03 am

Post by Raya36 »

In post 238, Maxous wrote: ok, but are you suggesting Mathdino is scum because he's trying to force a scumteam so early?
or more likely to be scum at least
Nope. I just don't think it's a good way to go about finding scum and 99% of the time it will be wrong. Math has done tons this game but I think his energy would be better spent elsewhere than diving into meta and preflip associates to try to solve the entire game D1. The meta is fine and he's correct in saying that as scum I tend to avoid my partners in the thread but this info would be better used after a flip and not to try to solve the game solely based on assuming I'm scum.

Anyway, I'm working on rereading the thread but it's a bit slow since I'm keeping notes. After that I'll probably dive into isos and maybe do some meta reading.
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:04 am

Post by Bins »

My top pick for SK right now is Chip. He's playing exactly how I'd imagine a lurky SK would play. His reads felt VERY fake. Other than that I can't really distinguish lazy town/scum.
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:13 am

Post by Bins »

I'd also like to drag your attention to the fact Elmo is GONE.

But apparently no one else wants her wagon.

VOTE: Raya
I don't think Math's main reason for scumreading you is because you fit in the scumteam he has. Checking his initial readslist doesn't mention that. Other than maybe he thinks Elmo was a scum fabricated wagon [which is sort of ridiculous, I don't sheep my partners as scum].
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:26 am

Post by Sauce »

I'm not impressed by the Raya wagon. I see Almost and Math abandoning their Bins push for something that looks like Raya voting Not_Mafia, and the subsequent omgus vote from N_M (although he voted Raya earlier). Why would this inspire more votes on Raya than any one of them could've tried to gathered by staying on Bins? or moving on to any other player who already had one vote (assuming they are town and want there to be a decent wagon with a lot of traction which is in town's interest). Why is Raya of all people scummier than Maxous for example? And apparently Not_Mafia is sheepworthy, go figure that out.

It should be noted that Chip, Almost and Lalendra haven't been voted yet, and mutant's vote on Mathdino was a short-lived RV. If we are going to attempt to apply the template of scum are likely to interact less with their buddies and stay clear of bussing, then we can assume that these 4 have a higher chance of being scum.

Now if Lalendra's vote on Maxous was an RV and she didn't change it because of a playstyle idiosyncrasy, then I have been the only one at least semi-seriously voting for Maxous as opposed to anyone else for quite some time before fitz recently added his vote after a long abstinence following a RV on Not_Mafia..

What I'm saying is I know I'm town (and if you have even an ever-so-slight townread on me you're with me on this), and if what Lalendra is saying is true and/or she is town as well then Maxous has not been bussed for all this time and should be included in that category: Chip, Almost, Lalendra, Mathdino and more or less Maxous.

One could argue that I have only had a fugitive random vote by Not_Mafia on me until Lalendra voted me, but multiple people have expressed the desire to lynch me, not so much the 5 I've mentioned, which is why you shouldn't include me in that list.

I for one, when I think of especially these names, don't have any reason to regard them as town, so I think I've made up my mind to push in this direction today.
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