Open 707 - JK9++ [Endgame]

[UnaBombaH]

/conn-firm

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: Jaydragon

Can't wait for a wagon on them

VOTE: JayDragon - blatantly opportunistic.

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: Jaydragon

Can't wait for a wagon on them

VOTE: JayDragon - blatantly opportunistic.

Opportunistic scum over here.

VOTE: Jaydragon

So you are calling me scum then??
Here, take this!

VOTE: JayDragon

[UnaBombaH]

I like Elsa the person, but dislike Elsa the survivor..

[UnaBombaH]

..but honestly though Elsa, you should learn how to scumhunt and forget this "I'm here to just survive"-mentality.

[UnaBombaH]

..but honestly though Elsa, you should learn how to scumhunt and forget this "I'm here to just survive"-mentality.

If you trust yourself to not be a mislynch bait and be considered a voice of the reason, then you would have a survivor mentality.

The key word in my post was "just". If you only join a game to survive, you ruin it for your teammates most of the time.

[UnaBombaH]

It's too early for this crap.

VOTE: Una

Don't you come in here late, and then tell me that MY CRAP is EARLY!

Found scum guys.
VOTE: Impede

[UnaBombaH]

This

But in all seriousness, I do try to help town, not just survive. But I strive to also be entertained, which helps if I'm alive. It's a connundrum.

into this

Idk about you
But being awesome enough to get shot by mafia N1 is my personal wincon

should be the way of the force and a fact of life.

[UnaBombaH]

Yeah, being insensitive to the fact that it is in fact EVENING time in Finland. For shame, Impede. For shame.

I think we need to have a discussion about this at some point.
For an american you seem to hamper on me being finnish quite a lot..

[UnaBombaH]

I am being culturally sensitive to the nation of your origin. It is also something I can say about you that nobody elsa I know has. And it's funny.

OK, I like you again.

VOTE: JayDragon

[UnaBombaH]

me being finnish

I'll hold off on my Finnish policy lynch policy until next year.

Now why is that?

[UnaBombaH]

me being finnish

I'll hold off on my Finnish policy lynch policy until next year.

Now why is that?

Just kidding...I like Scandanavians.

Or would Nordic apply more to Finns? Pardon.

I promise this is the last time I sidetrack the discussion, BUT..

Even us Finns often speak of us as a part of Scandinavia, but we are actually really a part of Fennoscandia when speaking literally.
Scandinavia includes Denmark, Norway and Sweden - Fennoscandia includes Norway, Sweden and Finland, as well as parts of present day Russia.

Why even bother splitting hairs?
Finns are sort of proud of their education system, and on top of that, I am an individual with absolute love for "general knowledge", or "quiz knowledge".

[UnaBombaH]

... That's not the point if my death helps town. I like to fricken live. It's a natural instinct to want to survive.

Nobody understands me. Waahh!

I just have a very opposite perspective towards Mafia, I think.

I get frustrated when people read me incorrectly, yes.
I want to live until the end of the game, and be the one to solve everything, yes.
But all of that is left under the biggest need to just WIN.

So that is why I'm trying to evolve as a player, and work away from being a lynchbait, so that I can be part of the solution every time my team wins!
/cringe

[UnaBombaH]

Una: i can't read any of this shit but i hope he contributes soon

My early game has always been lackluster.
When I started on this site, I used to always act scummy as to draw attention to myself and force content and interactions from others.
I think I do my best work D2/D3 when there's more info on the table, so I try not to be a lynchbait anymore.
Nowadays I just stick to "randomness" until someone says something I can have a solid read on.
I'm going to nitpick the hell out of everyones posts tonight when I have more time.

[UnaBombaH]

I still need the time to nitpick-read, I can't fully participate until then.

Dino and Elsa are polar opposites to me playstyle-wise.
I like Dinos thought process, and I dislike Elsas approach to the game. Totally NAI, I think, but I am honestly willing to just policy lynch her for it.

Nevertheless, I need the time to read and will post on computer next time to push for discussion outside of her.
I think its OK to do policy lynch D1, but we need to not make it the only discussion theme for the day..

[UnaBombaH]

I need to find the time to read more than the latest posts..

I promise I wont drag us down once I get on it.

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: Redflavor

This is probably going to bite me in the rear, but I'm willing to test Mathdino's case on Redflavor.

Before I go to sleep, this raised some flags for me.
I'll analyse tomorrow.

[UnaBombaH]

Wow what a snoozefest. All the theory talk isn't game-advancing at all. I know Math is posting up a readslist, so I'll do the same. This is mostly gut off of reading the past 2-3 pages.

Momo, Jay
Math, A50

Kop, Hawk

Una, Fitz
-

Everyone else is

null

for lack of content.

This felt like such bullshit.
I admit to being very low-effort so far, but Impede calling the game a "snoozefest" and others having a lack of content while he hasn't said much either..
Just feels very fake.

[UnaBombaH]

So, both momo and Mathdino are correctly TRing me but for the wrong reasons.

This feels out of place.
So much meta and prior interactions have been dragged in these reads and I feel like it devalues most of them.
Mathdino, for now, feels like the towniest of the bunch - momo and A50 are both feeling more sketchy than not.

[UnaBombaH]

However, I don’t like momo’s confidence in townreading A50. Seems contrived.

momo TRs me for 2 reasons, the first of which is I acknowledged his play is usually scummy as Town and even provided reference, so -to him- I must be Town bc I did not capitalize on the fact he is lynch-bait.

The second reason I'd rather not go into, but I'd say it was a false assumption on his part.

So, both momo and Mathdino are correctly TRing me but for the wrong reasons.

Scum would say this. Just FYI. Totally NAI, but this is EXACTLY how scum would capitalize on this sort of situation correctly.

Oh, wow. I actually agree with this.
Guess it's too early to think of connections and AI-reads based on interactions, but I think analyzing both 162 and 170 might yield something interesting D2/D3.

[UnaBombaH]

I know I'm probably TRing one scumster (Scum to me = anti-town, not just group scum), but the chances are higher of hitting a baddie in these 4 still, as I believe Scum would be less motivated to be active during the holidays (it's a good excuse for low activity).

I really, really dislike this part here.
VOTE: Almost50

[UnaBombaH]

I quoted 175 last night right before going to sleep, and now I'm happy I did.
It was a scummy vote-post IMO, and yet again by Almost50..I feel very confident this will flip red.

[UnaBombaH]

OK, spamming will end here.
I really like the hypo-claimage -

If I were to be the Hider, I would hide behind Mathdino

.
I was just recently in a game where there was a role that definitely benefited from crumbing their N1 target.

Elsa comes off very bad with all this nonsense about the Hider claiming and Tracker being around.
What makes it worse, is the fact that she started to dance around the topic right after momo claimed he would hide behind her..

My only problem with the hypo-claims is that if we end up lynching a player who someone has "claimed" to hide behind, we lose the potential crumbs unless they re-claim..

[UnaBombaH]

I'm also townreading Math for this idea. I do not see any possible way scum could benefit from this, as it massively enhances the power of a town role they have no way of knowing could be present.

Agreed-o.

I mean, I CAN see how scum might try to abuse this in their NK planning, but if we manage to steer their night actions towards sub-optimal with theoretical claims, I still think its good for us.

[UnaBombaH]

I have a feeling I'm missing a vital part of someones progression here when I read pages 5-10.

I also want everyone to try again on who they scumread/want to lynch for today.
Both Elsa and Red are on the table as lynch-candidates, but I have reason to believe I already found scum, and his buddies conveniently "missed" the tells.
Turning towards the easy target (Elsa) right now makes me think there's already scum in the wagon..

[UnaBombaH]

so he's going to be useless both by day and by night, regardless of his alignment.

I have like a lot of games I was one of the most useful town members.

I'm just not very inspired rn and you can see this is sitewide.

I hope you become more active soon!
I have no trouble believing in your skills, and I've been very distracted myself recently, so I can sympathize..

[UnaBombaH]

@Math: From the looks of it, this game is going to be heavily reliant on night action. There's not much to go by -so far- by day play and anyone could be scum or town, tbh. Which brings me to a point I didn't want to bring before (because it might result in a flame war):

If we're policy lynching, and if you agree the game is more reliant on night action, I'd rather lynch Creature today.

My one and only modded game featured Creature as the N1 Cop, and he didn't bother submitting a target for his ONE SHOT COP on N1, so he's going to be useless both by day and by night, regardless of his alignment.

If we have a better lynch though I'm all for it. If not, that's where I'd be lynching.

If this wasn't posted by scum, I'm not sure what kind of a townie it would be posted by.

[UnaBombaH]

I need to go to sleep NOW, but I'll try put my thoughts to words sooner rather than later.
I feel confident in wanting A50 lynched today.

I'm not being "mysterious" on my other reads for any "wow-factor", it's because I don't like making big cases right before I go to sleep.
It wouldn't be the first time scum push a fast lynch and I never wake up in that game again.

[UnaBombaH]

You're not going to gain anything by trying to get someone to blindly and independently verify what you've found in this game. Better to make your case and see how it's received.

So what you're saying is that no one should read or re-read the game, and just hop on an easy wagon?

Because what my post was SUPPOSED to imply, was that everyone should look beyond Red and Jay FOR NOW, and try to actually scumhunt.
I have also made my initial case for why I voted for A50, and would like it if you actually reviewed it.
A50 is scum, and his buddies will try to discredit me during the following 8~hours before I get back on a computer..

[UnaBombaH]

There you go Math.

Closer look at Impede doesn't take him off my scumreads.

I like havingfitz.

[UnaBombaH]

Almost50

,

momo

and

creature

are scumteam

1 in 3 rule. Calling our Red, Creature & Una for the Scum team.

This is such a BS line-up.
While I can't slot Red OR Creature well enough yet, I'd be willing to say there's 0 scum in this list!

Since we are throwing shit around, I almost feel like calling the scumteam here and now, but I want to see more interactions first.

Who here can see scum!Almost50 without me explaining it? (again)

Everyone is welcome to discuss the slot obviously, but I want to especially hear from Mathdino, Impede, havingfitz and momo - if you'll humor me on this, Id appreciate it!

[UnaBombaH]

i like having fitz

No foreplay, straight to the dick..

[UnaBombaH]

Bookmarking this. This is fence-sitty enough on A50 to suggest an associative read if we get a scumflip on either him or Math.

D1 lynch rationale is nice though, but scum could just as easily post this.

Now go read that "mysterious" post I made earlier - I wanted someone else to arrive to this conclusion by themselves and organically.
I think there has been a creeping suspicion on an association between Dino and A50.
That is EXACTLY why I want A50 lynched now that I already scumread him - it might help me sort Dino more firmly.

Impede and havingfitz are on my townleans now.

[UnaBombaH]

Truly Town members: MathDino, Kop, Momo, Almost50.
Scum members: Impede and Creature.

So..uh..my top two scumreads, and the one gut-read associative I have with them are in your townblock..

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, I have no trouble believing me and Jay are of the same alignment, but in that case we are both town.

I'll offer a deal to all the townies around after I've had a good night sleep..there is a lynch we can pull off today, and not likely later!

[UnaBombaH]

I don't have to search for the posts I wanted to quote, but I have read what happened during my sleep. I need to leave for work soon, and will stop being mysterious from here on out.
I had my reasons - I got a feeling there's scum in the more vocal and commonly townread players.
And before anyone starts bashing me for playing it like this - I have been lynched "in my sleep" before, because my rhythm is so different from the majority of the playerbase, and heavily pushing for some of peoples top townreads very early might lead to that.. (even though I think it shouldn't)

My current thoughts/problems in this game:
Mathdino has provided good content, and was one of the more solid townreads I have. BUT. I had a very strong feeling they were avoiding commenting on A50, and sort of automatically "townbinned" them. This went against my own read of actually scumleaning them, and raised some flags for me. Dino has since taken a more based and argumented stance on A50, but I fear it's only because I asked for it.

Sidenote:

Impede is one of the few players who seemed to see something there on their own, and I don't think scum!Impede would go there.

One of my griefs is that people say I'm presented in a bad light because I thought Elsa was a townie while some tried to wagon her.
I took her 44 to be a soft, because I happen to know Elsa likes to play "dangerously" with her roles. (she is definitely NOT LyLo-material unless we can somehow conf. her vigs)
I also stated that she WAS definitely a potential D1 lynch (in the event she would've denied the claim/she would've REFUSED to hardclaim it at L-1, etc), but NOT the wagon to push all the way through at this point of the game. We need interactions and discussion before the day ends.

Sidenote: sorry if this is a heavy read, but I'm just writing along where my thoughts go, not going to heavily format this like I usually do (I'm tired and really have to leave soon).

A50 is still my #1 scumread, and the things that support that read just keep on piling.
He had NO REASON to soft a Hider-claim while I was the only one pushing for him. After the hypo-claims, softing a Hider achieves nothing - it just creates the illusion of being "safe".
Also: hardclaiming it makes almost no difference if you are put to L-1 and forced to claim it - you just carry your night-action as hypo-claimed, and the results are there D2 when we wake up.
His "scumreads" and "pushes" have been on the inactives and the only people who scumread him - only picking the easy ones.
His "frustration" towards everyone being scummy felt fake as all hell.
His frustration towards sheep for voting Red AFTER that wagon had started to dissolve is NAI, but I can see why someone would initially read it as town.
I also just remembered that he said he softed Hider BECAUSE he felt like I was going after him. He then says he neither confirms or denies it. If you soft something - own it. Fakeclaiming is stupid, especially this early, and in Opens.

[UnaBombaH]

Some things I forgot to mention when I got lost in writing:

The crux of my problem with Dino, is that I can't find the reasoning why scum would ever suggest the Hider-hypoclaim. And therefore Mathdino is not lynch-material unless he refuses to lynch A50 D2.
Dino is town based on all of his actions - and my paranoia-scumread because of HOW TOWN HE IS (I'm always a bit too paranoid about my strongest townreads, Dino here is no exception, and thus I'm afraid Dino will "protect" A50 from a lynch even if they keep giving tells.)

Why I'm pushing so heavily for A50, and specifically D1?
Because I think he is the kind of player who, if not lynched now, will be gradually even harder to push a lynch on, and will therefore make it to lategame.

I lifted up my opposing reads with Elsa earlier, because I thought they were town. But think we have such opposing reads that we will split the town, and can't work together to form majority on a lynch that needs to be done. I've seen enough games lost because of that - and that isn't to say someone is incompetent or bad, it's to say that sometimes town just can't communicate and coordinate well enough.

[UnaBombaH]

Off to work, might not be around for ~12 - 24 hours, depending on how busy it gets.

Mathdino (PARANOIA DOE BOIS), Impede, havingfitz, Elsa

A50, momo

I'm willing to discuss these names when I get back.

[UnaBombaH]

Why did the weird Jay wagon happen so fast beginning of the game? Is there some inside joke I’m not in on? All the votes looked like joke/RVS votes, but it just seems weird to run up the VC on a single player so fast no?
Math, Una, Fitz, Creature? Care to elaborate?

Because for whatever reason I've been in like 4(?) games with Elsa in a row, and I call her a "she" because she is Elsa, while she is actually "he", I think.
My votes on that wagon were mostly goofing around, but also because I wanted to get the game rolling - anything for content, amirite?

[UnaBombaH]

I'm trying to dig myself out of my tunnel and focus my next reread on RedFlavor, Kop, Hawk, havingfitz.
I feel like Mathdino/A50/momo form the bulk of the actual conversation, and I'm constantly paranoid of them creating the whole picture for everyone else to see (NAI, but destroys original ideas and organic reads).
I still haven't been able to keep up posting-wise, but I have been reading more than three times a day.
Will be able to devote a lengthy time for only posting before D1 deadline though, probably Tuesday.

[UnaBombaH]

I still think lynching in a slot like Creature D1 is fine, but I think people are overestimating the association reads we get from such a flip.

[UnaBombaH]

Or I can just shoot the one who we don't hang and make everything easier.

Please don't do that. OR if you do, don't say you do.
Doo-doo.

[UnaBombaH]

I also just realized there isn't a single doable lynch that I really approve.

I want the monkeys and the such dead, maybe even a gangster or two..but no.

[UnaBombaH]

It was only a suggestion, and not a commitment. But if it means the Mafia waste their roleblocker or strongman on me to make sure I don't screw them in the future, then so be it.

Just don't shoot me when you're flailing around gun in hand..

[UnaBombaH]

I'm afraid that a few players (cough you, and me earlier) are just skimming well-written cases and being swayed.

OK, this is EXACTLY what I was saying in my previous post: I feel like certain players have been lead on by impressive LOOKING cases, that are nothing but smoke and mirrors.
I feel like A50 got a too easy townread from some.
I think Impede got scumread because of the way people stacked on their "scumreads" on top of each others previous ones - not checking whether they even agreed with everything or even MOST.

I myself have found posts from Impede that I thought could be interpreted as scummy, but my main read on him is Town.
If I were to just take those few parts I disliked and added them on the pile of "cases" others have built, I would've ended up death tunneling him to the end.

On this same notion, I think sheep has been either scummy or lazy - not making the effort to start of case from the scratch.
MathDino is making the effort, BUT I'm seriously getting worried it's just posing.
I get a feeling he is currently trying to pocket and "appease" me, and him as town would have no reason to do so.
I like the fact that he provides so much to read though - if he's scum he is almost bound to make a mistake or monitor his posting so heavily it should be visible lategame.

MY BIGGEST REASON FOR WANTING A50 TO FLIP, IS BECAUSE A RED MONKEY WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY BE PARTNERED WITH A RED DINO.

#MyLastCaseFile #ifTomorrowNeverComes #NailThemScumsters #DontTrustA50 #BeWaryOfMomo #InactiveTowniesNeedToVote #YouHaveAVoice

[UnaBombaH]

We'll deal with A50 tomorrow, as I've said numerous times, every single time you've brought up the A50 lynch idea. It's insane to think you're more likely to lynch the guy D1 than D2.

Two things "wrong" about this (from my PoV obviously!).
1. I might not be alive tomorrow, making sure the push keeps happening. You might still be alive, and keep "soft-defending" him.

2. "Something always comes up" during nights. A faked guilty. An actual guilty. Something that yet again gives us a "more likely lynch".
"...and we'll deal with A50 eventually."

Again, this is a case of you trying to point things about my playstyle that I could've already told you, or that you could've realised from meta. You "speculate" (really just reading the obvious) before you ask questions of me. This sort of behaviour is part of why you haven't been too convincing. There's also the matter that your reads are super self-centred and seemingly primarily based around others' interactions with you.

A very astute observation. You just put my main-weaknesses as a townplayer in a nutshell.

@Una/Impede: Explain scum-A50's push on Una/Impede, which was filled with holes. Do you believe he genuinely tunneled into those mistakes?

He wanted to appear game-solvy.
I did some VCA with set assumptions, and wrote the results in excel. I now have a few scenarios where (depending on who we lynch, and who flips after the night), I can comfortably start drawing associations.
One thing I noticed about A50 was that he stuck to the first "easy" wagon of RedFlavor for a long time.
At the point where I had been voting for him for a few days and was causing commotion about his slot, he jumped onto Impede. (trying to appear towny for not sticking to easy wagons)
Then opted to jump into another "easy" wagon in Creature because it seemed as if it would slide all the way through.
His "scumpush" on me was bad, because it was forced as well.
He tried to mask it behind "omgus" and frustration, but I don't buy it.

[UnaBombaH]

I believe A50 will not be the lynch today, but I'm certainly going to keep investigating the game with the theory of A50+momo.

Dino is my paranoia-scumread, but likely town. (he seems to be a genuinely nice guy and actively keeps the peace, which I MIGHT HAVE MISTAKEN for pocketing)

The third scum is either SK or can be found in the inactives (in which case we will likely find them with the VCAs later)

[UnaBombaH]

Sup hey what do we do

Be a rebel and vote someone.
Make a vote you can comfortably stand behind, and you don't even need to explain it.
Just do it.

[UnaBombaH]

If you can comfortably stand behind that vote, and say that you think I'm scum, then by all means that was a good vote.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm amazing at this game.

I do still stand by what I said about interactions around A50. Also, A50 as a NK makes sense only if there were blatant crumbs that I missed, OR someone gained distance from it.
No doubt he is a good player, but there would've been better targets for scum to take.
My working theory for today is that SK killed A50, and Mafia wasted the "vig".

[UnaBombaH]

After reflecting for a moment, I think we go to VOTE: Mathdino.

A50's ISO doesn't seem to have anything resembling a crumb towards him being a Tracker, however..there is the off chance scum thought he really was the hider.
A50 hypoclaimed to hide behind Creature who was the lynch, and I don't think he ever claimed a 2nd target(?).

So scum could kill him off and there would be no risk for them being implicated.
Based off of this (and the kind of thinking I feel like the kill-decision took,) I'd say Mathdino killed A50.
The off-chance is that someone tried to frame him (read his previous post), but him saying that I'm the primary suspect for it is bullshit. (the only scenario where I killed A50 is the one where I'm a vig, never as scum)
Math was also "soft-defending" A50 D1, and his playstyle fits that of a buddying SK very well.

havingfitz is still a townread for me, same as Impede.
I'll try to sink in on sheep/Red next, but I feel like they are very difficult to read ever.

[UnaBombaH]

Momo is red still scum buddies with creature? Or impede?

Impede is town.
Agree on momo.

..........but what are talking about creature?

[UnaBombaH]

If I were in Maf-team this game, I'd make sure my buddy RBs Elsa AND we kill them.
I wouldn't ever risk us starting D2 with two of us down.
Just my two cents on the "priority" I think Maf would have.

IF we are still vs 2+1, I think I can make my mind on the team and the SK just by reading.
I'll have time to do that tonight.

[UnaBombaH]

Yea, back to scum reading Momo the most.
And company on the wagon too?!?

VOTE: momo

[UnaBombaH]

I had a cute scenario in my head, where the scum team was Dino, A50, momo.
Now that I know it's not the case, I had to reevaluate my read on momo, since A50 was actually main suspect and the others were mainly drawn from associations.
I still think the interactions around A50 were scummy, but now it would implicate momo and Dino, since A50 flipped green.

[UnaBombaH]

I can bet there's 0 scum coming to quick hammer him.
Momo is by far the best lynch today, we leave an inactive slot for the vig.
Tacos/red or something.

I'd also like address my reads in full, but mobile posting Sucks, so I'll try later.

[UnaBombaH]

Tacos/red or something.

?

Might have mixed up games.
This is why I dislike playing on mobile - I don't have all the facts available all the time like I do at home.

[UnaBombaH]

Not any of those roles.

[UnaBombaH]

..the plot thickens..

[UnaBombaH]

Because he flips scum.
When he flips scum, we can draw more associations based on that.
I wish I had the time and energy to do that full reread on D1 and actions around the wagon - there had to be people bussing, and I just wish Creature would've posted more before the hammer..

[UnaBombaH]

Implication: UnaBombaH is SK.

Oh wow, I'm surprised it took you this long to take this avenue.

I thought of you as a potential SK the moment A50 flipped town
Scum nontheless, but it would fit better with the setup-spec and towny-attempts you have pulled.
Your earlier "pleasing and appeasing everyone"-attitude also fits quite nicely!
And how funnily you were, at start, convinced that the Maf./"vig" kills were the other way around (from how I'm certain they make more sense).

But enough about you, let's focus on me now (:lol:) - how does it fit a lonewolf with the mentality to survive, to go after NOT conventional scumreads, and yell for a lynch on a widely townread slot (you)?

[UnaBombaH]

I'm currently still way behind in reading, and you'll likely have to wait some 24h for it, but I promise I'll put all of my effort in it.
This game has officially piqued my interest now, and I think there's enough content to solve it.
It will just take a little time and a lot of effort, and I have very little of either atm.

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: UnaBombaH

Putting myself out there here as a compromise to the "Una is Creature's partner" crowd. I'd like to see if a lynch here is possible.

Would prefer lynching Kop/sheep but I think we're waiting on Ghost for the Kopcase.

Oh, ok then..before I go to sleep:

TO ANYONE TOWNIE HERE - DO NOT LET THIS WAGON PUSH ALL THE WAY THROUGH BEFORE I HAVE TIME TO CATCH-UP PROPERLY!

It wouldn't be the first time it happens, since most of yours' peak hours are during my sleep/work.

[UnaBombaH]

Convinced about the popular NK theory here. Calls it a working theory when it's kind of obvious.

I was the first one to call it like that.

YOUR VERY OWN POST TO FOLLOW MINE UP INCLUDED THIS:

Upon reflection (and I'm just assuming vig doesn't exist now because they didn't cc Jay), the most likely scenario is that mafia killed Jay and SK killed A50. Reason being that SK has a 1-shot BP and vig hanging around is much more likely to hurt mafia. Mafia on the other hand is actively afraid of vig. Especially after we have him leashed.

Calling it a "popular nightkill theory", when only few people had theorized and you posted that AFTER me, is somewhat stupid.

[UnaBombaH]

SK is harder if it's not Impede. Why do we think Una would have shot A50?

I'd like to hear this too.

[UnaBombaH]

This thought just occurred to me... if an SK is genuinely scumhunting, one would expect them to be honest about their reads, yes? They have nothing to hide, no one to protect, they want to lynch maf. If we look at A50 as an SK kill (seems highly likely), I think there's a decent chance the SK actually thought A50 was scum. This is especially true of a N1 NK, as they would be less concerned with people SK-hunting, and even if they were cornered based on their reads, they could easily WIFOM their way out of it.

This means a few observations are probably true:
1) The SK would have most likely been present on the Creature wagon unless genuinely convinced he wasn't maf.
2) The SK would have to be decently convinced on scum!A50 -AND- been convinced that they couldn't get town to lynch him (why waste an NK on a foregone conclusion?)

This is correct in my mind.

Now, forgive me for probably being stupid and redundant, but this forces me to retract my point on Una earlier. This makes Una seem quite sus if you accept this logic.

...this not so much. I won't dive into the WIFOM-territory myself, all I can say is that me killing A50 N1 in this game would've been the single most stupid thing to do, if I were to be scum. I would want to keep him alive just to have a fall-back-scumread for D2/D3. SK!Una would've possibly killed A50 N2/N3, but never before.

I think SK is all but guaranteed to be in a slot that isn't highly polarizing, and probably especially likely to be flying under the radar with some genuine scumhunting thrown in. Candidates: Hawk, Kop, Ghost, Una. Added candidate because paranoia: Math

Slight disagree here too: SK has no reason not to

FULLY

scumhunt all game. They can pick a BP at start, and if they have been obv.towning all game, they can always hope for town-protectives coming their way too.

[UnaBombaH]

SK most likely thought A50 is town.

You're gonna hate me for saying this, but A50 would easily be my first shot if I were SK. Would save from the awkward question on D2 of wtf to do with him. Strong player too.

ARGH the WIFOM....!

[UnaBombaH]

I still think Math is either
A) SK
or
B) just a town that gets everywhere, maths everything, and is a decently good guy towards others too.

Somehow it's still easier to accept A.

[UnaBombaH]

I don't think Role Cop gets a meaningful result on SK. I think SK investigates as Vanilla.

It would investigate as bulletproof/ninja+strongman

[UnaBombaH]

I don't think Role Cop gets a meaningful result on SK. I think SK investigates as Vanilla.

Nvm, I'm dumb af. SK has abilities.

Lol, didn't read the next fking post, sorry guys!

[UnaBombaH]

It's WIFOm to anyone who thinks you could be the SK.

OK, I have some 10min before I leave for floorball, so let's dance.
UNVOTE:

[UnaBombaH]

I know you put a lot of effort towards your setup-spec Mathdino, but can you make a short, simple post on HOW SURELY we are against 1+1 at this point?
It's very important to me, as I read interactions better than anything else.

[UnaBombaH]

Easy way to hunt for scum?

I'd hide behind Hawk.

This would implicate Hawk.
Very simple logic - Creature is a Bus-Driver who plans on bussing his buddy Hawk.
If there is a Tracker/Watcher/whatnot investigative, his claim to visit Hawk might be confirmed at a later time.
At the same time he makes sure no one else can hide behind his buddy and die.

We've effectively strong-townblocked Jay, momo, me, Hawk, fitz, sheep.

Since when Hawk was town? He seemed opportunistic for me.

His second mention of Hawk. Clumsy distancing?

I agree with the townblock besides Hawk, so that leaves RedFlavor, Assemble, Kop, you, UnaBombaH and Impede. I'd probably remove Impede by myself.

Third mention - yet again only saying he doesn't townbin Hawk, but doesn't scumread him either.

momo town
Creature town
RedFlavor can be lynched
sheepsaysmeep town
Srceenplay town I guess
Kop null
Almost50 paranoid of
UnaBombaH seemed town

Hawk I remember not liking

havingfitz I remember townreading, but not sure now

Impede I haven't decided yet
Mathdino town
JaydragonKing town obviously

Painted the ones that stuck out.

VOTE: RedFlavor

This would be a VERY CLUMSY last ditch-effort to try and distance. Would fit with RedFlavor replacing out. Would actively pursue this theory further if Ghost hadn't been so outstanding before leaving.

[UnaBombaH]

Throughout ALLLLLL of this you've repeatedly stated that my entire game has been townish as fuck and that my presence has improved town cohesion. Now I can't expect you to just believe me when I tell you "I'm town" but I absolutely do expect agreement that my behaviour has been townish and that I've improved town cohesion by hard-defending multiple townreads when I didn't have to. Including you.

Yes.

[UnaBombaH]

You've not once written up a case on me because when you see me, you see a townie that you desperately don't want to be scum. So I'm a liability because you think I'm gonna win if I don't get lynched this fucking second.

You had the same view on A50. It was stupid then and it's stupid now. Your read on me is solely based on paranoia. The fact that you always boomerang right back to it after every assumption your read is built on is proven wrong, shows that.

This is wrong. If you had any idea how I play, or understood WHY I pinned you, momo and A50 on the scummy-list, it would make sense.
Don't ask me to explain how I play. I either get results, or I don't, but trying to explain why I've done this would take everything away from my actions.
I think we have gotten a lot out of it, like it or not.

If you really give that much of a shit about this, write up a case on me so people can take a look at it after you
A. get NK'd
B. get lynched for being this fucking tunnelly.

NK'ing me would mean I'm on the right track at this point.

I don't actually even think you're scum anymore but the hilarious fucking thing is now people are using "Well, Math is defending Una for some weird reason" as a roundabout way to suggest I'm SK, who thinks you're mafia, who wants to keep you around.

..and I love it. We have lots of weird posts to interpret.

[UnaBombaH]

Off to floorball, will write a little more within ~5hours.

[UnaBombaH]

My prewritten case has no weight now that Ghost and momo flipped!

[UnaBombaH]

I just woke up, I'll work on this scenario in a while..

[UnaBombaH]

OK, not even fixing any typos, and most quotes probably won't link correctly since it was made as a PM-draft.

[UnaBombaH]

I really really tried to shake any conf.bias I had, and escape all of my tunnels while rereading the game.
I found new angles on guys like Mathdino and Impede, but quoting during night-phase is hard and possibly even dangerous.. (accidental PMs avoided! )
This is a draft I saved during the night:

Angle 1:
There almost has to be scum in havingfitz,

sheepsaysmeep

, Mathdino, Impede.
These are the names on Red-wagon at the time when Creature-wagon wasn't higher than 2 votes in.
There was no actual need for a counterwagon at the time, but a good scumplayer would've positioned themselves in the highest/2nd highest wagon at this point anyway, so I feel certain Creatures buddy is there.

AS AN ADDED BONUS

, I realized that if we really are against 1+1,

IT IS EVEN POSSIBLE THAT THE SK WAS ON THAT WAGON TOO.

They wouldn't have been able to coordinate their votes, and would've both wanted to look towny D1, so not a long stretch..

With this in mind, I'd say that out of these three, Impede makes the most sense as Creatures buddy. At least more than the other two, but there can be cases made for Mathdino too. Noteworthy to say that more than just being a claimed Vig, Jay was also one of the now confirmed townies, who scumread Impede.

JAY EVEN PAIRED THE TWO AS

THE

SCUMTEAM.

And if you read this post with that in mind:

... *sigh*

I've been the target of today's Lynch since page fucking one. I've said all I can, honestly, about my innocence before I had took my nap. Whether it's by scum read or policy Lynch, half of you want me dead.

But just humor me while I'm alive, okay? If I flip Vigilante, how much do you want to be sold on the scum team being Impede/Creature?

The hell? Why would you hardclaim now. Sigh.

UNVOTE:

pedit: I think this is the only way to get content out of him. Sheep!
VOTE: Assemble

..it's easy to see scum!Impede faking the emotion here, and honestly be relieved to know they can now NK Jay without being pinned as scum for it.

Mathdinos overall play has been very pro-town, but it actually makes a lot of sense with a two-player scumteam.
I'm going to quote his progression on Creature once the day begins and I can quote properly, but AFTER HIS ONLY BUDDY HAS DIED, HE CAN ESSENTIALLY PLAY WITH AN SK-MINDSET!!
Or he's just simply the SK.

Havingfitz makes the least sense as scum to me (out of the three), but if he is scum, I'd say he's SK more likely than Mafia.

Angle 2:
Ghost played very a very towny D2, but did the slot deserve an instant townlock?
After reading Red, it seems like Red+Creature might not be too far fetched either.
If that slot isn't dead by the morning, it should DEFINITELY BE JUDGED AGAIN.
Def. not the SK, but potential scum.

Angle 3:
Subject: Open 707 - JK9++ [Night 2]

Like both of them know they are caught scum so they bus so that whoever is lynched first has been effectively distanced from the other one

I might be totally off the mark here, but this post gives the feeling that momo had inside-knowledge on the size of the scum-team..
I get that he doesn't say anything else regarding the size of the team, but I feel that the perspective is from someone who knows there's only two Mafia..
I need to make a progression-read between momo-Creature to see if there's anything else there, but this just popped in my eyes while reading.

Then there's obviously posts like this:

Also, @those who hard TR momo, I'd be careful with that. I dunno if he is really that shallow or if he scum slipped multiple times, and I pointed it out "mildly" but nobody saw it, it seems.

momo asked for the protectives to be targeting him if Jay flipped Scum. Granted the condition is unlikely to be true from where I stand, but what I'm interested in is he mentioned both he JK and the Bus Driver.

I disregarded too many of these, because I was so damn certain that A50 was scum, just looking to build narratives.
I only used posts like these as a way to try and sort the potential scumteams between A50/Dino/momo - but forgot all about them once he flipped town!

WITH THE ABOVE IN MIND, I'M NOW LOOKING FORWARD TO D3 EVEN MORE, AND I'M READY TO CONTINUE FROM HERE ONCE QUOTING IS EASIER.

[UnaBombaH]

Funnily enough, that whole post ^^ is now worth nothing, because Angle 1 focused MAINLY on the idea of having scum amongst the trio, Gamma was shot at night (angle 2) and momo was shot at night (angle 3)

I'm starting to think this might be my worst towngame yet.

[UnaBombaH]

Srceenplay, Kop and havingfitz are the least likely suspects for me.. (so probably opposite since my reads have been reversed almost all the time..!)

Mathdino, Impede and hawk are the ones I'm going to reread and quote the most.

[UnaBombaH]

Agreedo

[UnaBombaH]

As long as we make sure to let the lychee claim a vengeful-target before night, I don't much care for who we lynch.

[UnaBombaH]

Just to make sure people don't forget/misunderstand my earlier point: IF YOU ARE A VENGEFUL AND YOU GET LYNCHED, CLAIM YOUR SHOT BEFORE THE NIGHT.
That is to eliminate/confirm the small chance that SK has a BP.

Example: I'm Vengeful and get lynched. I declare I will shoot Mathdino.
If there's only one death in the morning and it's NOT Mathdino -> he had a BP -> he was SK.

Scum has no way to manipulate this, but the downside is obviously that we lose two more townies if Vengeful misses the SK.
Then again - we still get to make the decision (or at least the Vengeful does), on who dies, so it's one kill-decision away from the SK.

If I have misunderstood something, please clarify.

[UnaBombaH]

Fitz. We can’t not lynch you. If not today, eventually. Probably true for me as well unfortunately. Just state your reads so we can use it if you flip town.

We can not-lynch either of you.
What I have been working on is trying to find the win-con for each individual slot, and thus I have re-checked all the NKs and associations between the remaining slots.

And I've realized SK-hunting is nothing like scumhunting, AT ALL. I just think that it's 50/50 between the most "lurky-in the shadows" -type of player, and the most vocal and controlling one.

I think Mathdino has to die today or tomorrow - he is too good of a player for me to trust on anything. (Shitty reason, I know)
So if not him today, I'd say havingfitz might be the logical choice.

[UnaBombaH]

Sometimes I wish you didn't defend yourself so actively.

[UnaBombaH]

bet you'd say the same thing about A50 and momo tbh

At points yes.
You see, I'm going to come clean now, because it's not going to make any difference anymore.
It doesn't matter whether I would still "suspect" you, or have a "paranoia-scumread" on you.
The matter of fact is that you have been SO vocal in this game, that you have given very little room for our SK to make any noticeable mistakes.

Let me demonstrate: I scumread A50.
I still think that read was somewhat justified, even if it was totally wrong in the end.
Then YOU spend countless posts telling me how stupid it is of me to scumread him, and basically write the defenses FOR HIM. (not saying he couldn't do it himself, he seems like a good player)
Now, what town loses here, compared to letting only him defend himself? (and what led me even further down the path of bad reads and paranoia)
It didn't make me suspect him less - it made me suspect you more. Same with momo at certain points of this game.
By taking such a vocal role in this game, you might have stopped many scum-attempts of "defending" or "attacking" A50/momo/ghost.
Now that most of them have been proven as town, only you remain of that "group", and we have very few telling interactions to push for. (or at least that is how I feel every time I try to reread)
You leading us has most likely been a central part of us nailing the Mafia (and SK killing ghost for that matter ), but I feel like we can only hit the SK by dumb luck at this point.

These are the kind of things I just can't say out loud - I would've wished to see SOMEONE ELSE either call me dumb for still suspecting you, or maybe try to defend you - those are the type of actions I can read.
So now that I have stated WHY I have still, after all of this, kept "pushing" for Dino,

I'm going to make a hypoclaim.

N1 - momo is Vanilla.

N2 - Mathdino is Vanilla

, and therefore not the SK.

[UnaBombaH]

Yea, I see where you're coming from.
My play revolves all around reaction testing/analyzing. Meaning that I might say/do things are actually correct (no matter how many players call me trash for it ), but in the end I'm still more interested in the reactions, than I am in the actual end-result of said action.

[UnaBombaH]

I think we lynch havingfitz today, and then see what SK does overnight if we miss with him.