Open 707 - JK9++ [Endgame]

[Kop]

/confirm

[Kop]

I've been playing mafia for a while but I don't ever recall a page two hammer.

[Kop]

So I clearly didn't see some of the latter votes were from the people who were already voting him.

Fitz, sell me on Kopscum?

He usually participates in RVS if he's around at game start. His drop in felt odd.

Plus...lynching him saves the mod from multiple prods and an eventual replacement!

Nice to see you again.

VOTE: Almost50

[Kop]

Well, I'm not here to JUST survive, having fun is a pretty big priority as well.

But in all seriousness, I do try to help town, not just survive. But I strive to also be entertained, which helps if I'm alive. It's a connundrum.

Your death can sometimes also help town.

[Kop]

... That's not the point if my death helps town. I like to fricken live. It's a natural instinct to want to survive.

Nobody understands me. Waahh!

Everybody wants to live, whether you be town, scum, or SK.

But if your town, dying isn't the be all end all but if it is beneficial and something comes from it, it is easier to take and accept. Remember, you are playing to your win con, if you die and it is achieved, reality is, you played your part.

[Kop]

A50: looks town

Creature: nullscum, posting style feels a bit forced

fitz: first serious vote, doesn't really try to take credit for ending RVS, seems town

Impede: i have no idea what he's talking about in regards to Una but probably town just towning around

Jay: seems to be actively playing to his own meta. i don't think his behavior is super alignment indicative in general, and he's kind of a fluffy fluffer. i'm good with lynching him as a player until he learns not to be scummy. but then again he's probably town doing that weird "forced meta" thing

Kop: POLICY LYNCH. idk him giving advice to jay seems really forced, the way he's doing it. like he's speaking as a player and not as a townie?

Red: vague townish vibes

Una: i can't read any of this shit but i hope he contributes soon

everyone else: get in here so i can scumread you pls

Can you elaborate on some of these, because this is striking me as forced reads. Your accusing me of looking forced, this is more forced shit rather than actual reads.

How does Almost50 look town, what does town look like? He's made one RVS vote, and one filler post. How does that make him look town?

Creature, if you believe he is nullscum, why aren't you voting him since he's virtually your only scum read?

Impede, how is he towning around?

Jay, so your happy to lynch someone just to learn them to stop acting scummy, rather than actually lynching someone who you scum read? Do you scum read Jay or not?

Myself, your talking about policy lynching someone on page 4, and no reason because Fitz has painted myself as a policy lynch because of previous games.

Overall, reading these reads, I don't think they are actually genuine reads right now, and is just trying to look active.

VOTE: Mathdino

[Kop]

It benefits me because I can usually hold it until I've gotten what I need. Seeing how everyone's pushing me to get it over with, what mistakes people make in their argument that somebody else points out and the day goes on with heated debate, and should I happen to be scum in LyLo, be able to quick hammer really well, I just like the idea of holding it back as either alignment.

I don't agree with this. Withholding your vote does nothing to the cause, if anything makes you appear more scummy because you simply don't want to get involved in pressuring other players, and by pressuring them that is adding your vote to them, which makes them talk more than just asking questions without them being under pressure. Asking questions does get them talking but adding pressure by adding a vote with those questions you can get a better feeling to whether they are being genuine or fobbing you off. It also helps others get a feeling too.

At the minute you are putting yourself into a place where you are simply diverting all the attention onto yourself by trying to paint yourself as looking genuine, when in reality your putting yourself up as the lynch of the day. Because everything you've said you aren't doing. So instead of just answering yourself to math, why don't you actually go and do some scum hunting and start getting reads on people.

[Kop]

@math I understand your reason by how or why you've posted the reads, I just felt they were forced rather than actual reads. Some of them I didn't agree with but I'll follow your thoughts and see how you progress with them.

[Kop]

Haven't really dug into the game yet but on a quick skim everyone's still pretty null.

Nice to see familiar faces tho. How have you guys been? Did y'all miss me? Fitz, kop, momo, and creature?

Nice to see you again hawk. It's been a while.

Scum aren’t likely to come to the direct defense of a partner. Esp D1.

I do agree that Math’s reads seem a bit stretchy, but I don’t think it’s AI just yet, as he could just be trying to stimulate discussion.

Why do you think they won't? How would you know that scum won't, because in reality they can do it at any stage, unless that person they are defending is within lynch territory which they won't openly defend, they will let them go if that is the way the tide is going. But at this stage only Jay is within lynch territory so any defending right now of anyone doesn't spell out they can't be scum because they won't defend someone, especially on day one.

[Kop]

@hawk, was momo lynchbait in the last game you played with him? I recall playing with him before, Im not sure if we were in the same game the three of us, because a part of me seems to be remembering he was a hard player to play with and it was as if he was just trolling the game, rather than actively playing the game in serious mode.

[Kop]

So now I know my thoughts on that matter are literally the opposite of the entire meta on this site. It's still the way I agree with, but since none of you do, I'll change up and try something else. Going to shut up for a while and make a read list and see why everyone always asks me for one.

Happy New years Eve though.

Answer me this. If you were forced to vote for someone, who would it be? And why? Show me where your at right now and what your thoughts are.

[Kop]

Off topic, hope everyone has a good new year's celebrations and be merry.

[Kop]

I can agree with your momo point but I did the same thing with my very first post but that was a result of me skim reading, and not looking at the posters who were placing the votes. My mistake was genuine but I don't know about momo.

[Kop]

@hawk, was momo lynchbait in the last game you played with him? I recall playing with him before, Im not sure if we were in the same game the three of us, because a part of me seems to be remembering he was a hard player to play with and it was as if he was just trolling the game, rather than actively playing the game in serious mode.

The last game the 3 of us played together was Open 677. That was my first game of mafia (on this site) and I was confused.

I understand things a lot better now and give it a little bit and you will watch me bust this game open.

Ahh yes I remember that game. I think that was the one I chose wrong and lynched hawk.

[Kop]

@hawk, was momo lynchbait in the last game you played with him? I recall playing with him before, Im not sure if we were in the same game the three of us, because a part of me seems to be remembering he was a hard player to play with and it was as if he was just trolling the game, rather than actively playing the game in serious mode.

The last game the 3 of us played together was Open 677. That was my first game of mafia (on this site) and I was confused.

I understand things a lot better now and give it a little bit and you will watch me bust this game open.

Ahh yes I remember that game. I think that was the one I chose wrong and lynched hawk.

In lylo.

[Kop]

VOTE: Redflavor

This is probably going to bite me in the rear, but I'm willing to test Mathdino's case on Redflavor.

Why do you feel this way? If your feeling that, surely you won't sheep?

Uh, guys? I'm kinda scared when I look at the setup page.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B

It's history at the bottom literally says town has only won with this once,while the Serial Killer and the Mafia have three each under their belt, and a draw between them. That does not bode well for the majority.

I was about to ask if you actually had a point here that relates to an action we should take. I guess I'm still asking that.

But MY point is, I had an idea yesterday that I forgot to mention:

We should all hypoclaim (ideally different) Hider targets, and I will personally lynch anyone who doesn't.

There's a 53% chance there's a Hider in this setup. For those not in the know, Hider hides behind someone. If that person is shot or is scum, Hider dies. If the person is town AND isn't shot, Hider lives.
Hider is a weak-ass role specifically because it's hard as shit to tell who they hid behind. It's also tough to even decide who to hide. If you hide behind a super-townie, you run the risk of your target dying. If you hide behind a scummy/null target, you run the risk of hiding behind scum and dying. It's really only useful if you survive and can confirm someone as town. You can't even out publicly that you're hider and who you're gonna hide behind because then scum will just shoot your target if they're town.

Hypoclaiming (Hypothetical claiming) means saying "If I WERE the hider (which I might be), I would hide behind [player x]". As mafia doesn't know who the hider is, they can't just shoot the hider's target and expect to kill someone. If/when hider actually does die, we'll know who they hid behind.

So I'll start.

If I were hider, I would hide behind havingfitz.

Everyone else should go at some point before the day ends.

If I were hider, I would hide behind Almost50.

[Kop]

VOTE: Impede

This is a wagon outside of Jay/red that I'd like to take off. I don't necessarily scum read Jay, but I just feel he's being hard pressed into a mislynch, I just don't think scum would be that stupid to focus all of the attention onto themselves in the manner he has done since gamestart. I obviously wouldn't like to think that we could possibly go into LYLO with him but I'm wanting to go into different areas rather than focus on him for days on end.

Impede on the other hand, has given me nothing to note that I could town read him for, and I do like the case Fitz has put out against Impede. Last few pages that I have been reading, his name was popping out quite a bit. His vote on Jay doesn't make any sense to me at all, I wouldn't call it opportunistic, it felt more of a let go vote. If this wagon takes off and Impede flips scum, I would 100% go back for Jay because of how that vote felt to me.

Another point I didn't quite work out, he stated that he would hide behind Momo, why would you hide behind Momo considering he had him in his town read in post #152? Why would you not hide behind Fitz, or Una who you were scum reading? I understand hiding behind your town reads would give you a better chance of living, but also confirming your reads, doesn't give anything to gamestate because you don't really confirm anything, because you could be scum lying about being the hider and the hider might not even be in the game.

[Kop]

Quick thing, I picked fitz first and I encouraged everyone to pick different hider targets so it wouldn't draw the NK to any one person in particular.

Impede case isn't bad. It's convinced me out of a townread. Hasn't convinced me into a scumread. I see a lot of flak for his interaction with Jay, which I actually like. Seems natural to me.

I understand that point on what your trying to make, but from my understanding, it would be useful if they went with there feels, rather than 'oh he's took him, I'll take someone else'. That way I can see what they are feeling and not going with the flow of the game.

I chose mine, without even looking at others, and went with what I feel I would have done if this were the real case.

[Kop]

@Kop: Regarding the 3rd paragraph in #322, the idea was/is not for the Hider to claim. The idea is id they DIE over night we would know who they targeted and if that person isn't also dead there's a great chance they're scum.

I wouldn't want the hider to claim. I've played the hider role before and never claimed, I only claimed hider because I was hard pressed and someone worked out what I was, but the person that worked it out was scum, so it's a good chance he shot me believing I was something else and he wanted the credit.

[Kop]

@Jay, Creature is null for me. I've played with Creature a few times, and in most of them, he wasn't entirely active so it's hard for me to get a lock on read on him. It's 50/50 if I was to vote for him to be the next lynch. Unless he shows me a sign that he is scum, I will act upon it.

[Kop]

Quick thing, I picked fitz first and I encouraged everyone to pick different hider targets so it wouldn't draw the NK to any one person in particular.

Impede case isn't bad. It's convinced me out of a townread. Hasn't convinced me into a scumread. I see a lot of flak for his interaction with Jay, which I actually like. Seems natural to me.

How do you read Impede right now?

I understand you have your sights set on Jay, and I do agree with you with what you are saying, but personally I'd rather go for someone who can give us more information going into day two so we can get a stronger read on others, I feel lynching Jay on day one, isn't going to give us anything and reads won't be as strong as they would by lynching someone who gives us more. Jay will never be shot, so that is going to obviously be in the back of everyones mind and someone we don't want in LYLO, but he can easily be done on day 2 or 3 if we aren't further forward in lynching scum.

[Kop]

I'm still happy with where my vote is right now, Impede hasn't eased my read on him. A lot that I've seen just seems too OMGUS for me, and just only attempts to go for the next easiest thing that keeps things attention going in a different direction.

First he goes for Jay, with weak ass reasoning. I'm sure I read somewhere someone asking Impede what he got that made him vote for Jay, and I read through Impedes ISO and he never answered to it. Jay was already on 4 votes at the time and that's the way the game was heading, Impede just giving it a gentle push for it to be closer to a lynch.

He then votes for Assemble after Dino votes and says sheep. This to me, is buddying Dino who is a strong town read of everyone virtually. Scum like to buddy up in any possibility that they are able too.

Then the worst of it all, now attention is turning onto Impede, Creature is on 4 votes, and low and behold, here comes a Creature vote to put Creature on L-2. And this is after Dino gives Impede a bone by mentioning interactions with Impede/Creature and suddenly he votes for Creature. This is like a last ditch attempt to save his own skin because he believes he has been caught.

If he can actually build up a better case that will prove that he just isn't going for the easiest route I might change my read on him, but from everything I've seen, the whole OMGUS cases he's throwing around, jumping on the easiest bandwagons with weak reasons, and attempts at buddying, he's my highest scum read.

[Kop]

@Kop:
Why would I be guilty of OMGUS after calling out Jay for it in like 5 separate posts?
I DID explain my vote rationale in response to Jay asking about it. Are you willfully ignoring this?
I didn’t say sheep because I was sheeping, I said it to get OTHERS to sheep me.
Are you this inept??? He accuses me of bussing/defending Creature at various points, so then I proceed to pay. MORE attention to Creature and VOTE HIM?! How the hell can you perceive this as an attempt at getting attention off of myself?!
You’re not getting anymore rationale than I’ve already given you (lots). If you have a specific question, I’m happy to entertain you, but this entire line of thought is utterly ill-conceived and I resent it heavily enough that I’d rather see you be wrong than try to change your mind.
Wagon me if you want. I’ll make an effort to ignore your inane rationale and go on with scumhunting.
I recognize that bringing up the Scum!Kop and Scum!Math potential LOOKS LIKE OMGUS. But your rationale looks so bullshitty to me and NO ONE ELSE is calling it out, so wtf am I supposed to do, just take a lynch? Very well. That’s what I’ll do going forward.

Math was the first to vote for Assemble, so in reality, nobody was/would sheep you because you were sheeping Maths rational thinking. Whilst I agree Assemble needs pressure for his vote, but you jumped on because it just seemed right at the time, and wouldn't bring you any unwanted attention.

Your vote on Creature is an attempt to take attention of yourself, it isn't that hard to see. You only paid attention to Creature and voted for him because Math was putting you in the situation that was tying you to Creature, so in aid for that to be dissolved, it was then that you started to put your focus on Creature, also this was when attention was turning onto you (also note that Impede was slightly behind Creature in the votes). Pushing the creature wagon closer to the lynch may help you in time because people may think with Creature being closer to the lynch than you, they may opt to go to the biggest thing going, creature.

Your play doesn't tell me that you are actively trying to locate scum, it is showing me that you are just simply going with what others are echoing and your reasons for doing so are weak. I will hold my hands up if you flip green and say that I am wrong, but from what I'm seeing, I don't have high confidence that your town.

[Kop]

is that a hammer fuck

This reaction screams fake to me.

[Kop]

@Math I understand you are clearing him as a town read because his general play is consistent with his town meta, from previous games. However I am not willing to give him a pass simply because we don't have a scum meta that others can divulge into. He could simply be playing to his town meta when he could easily be scum.

This is one of my sole reasons I don't tend to use meta to get a read on someone, I'd rather get my reads from how they are playing in this game, rather than previous games. People evolve, and they gain more experience on how to play this game. You could easily be duped into believing he is playing his town game.

For example, Fitz voted for me in RVS and made out that I was a possible policy lynch based on his experience with me in previous games.

[Kop]

VOTE: Red

This is a avenue I think is what I want to go down right now. That hammer vote doesn't get him any town credit, and I think it stinks a lot of scum cutting ties. His vote on Una made no sense on day one towards the end of it, and he never really gave a good enough reason for me to believe that vote was genuine.

I don't think Screen is scum. Early impressions, yes, but since turn of this day I don't think it.

Momo, I'm unsure of, but he's not a slot I'd like to press right now.

Math, I've town read him a lot on day one, I still do to an extent, but I echo the same thoughts that Screen showed earlier that he could be a scum leader, but that's a far fetch right now. And least of any issues.

Impede is a slot I'd still like to progress down, but I'm willing to accept Math's view on Impede for now.

Fitz, I'm having a hard time reading since the content is very far and between.

(Sorry that this is very brief but I'm just having a hard few days and my head isn't in it right now, personal issues.)

[Kop]

I'm not the vigilante.

If I was, I wouldn't have shot either Jay or Almost.

[Kop]

@Kop I'm fairly certain this is going to be forgotten but you said "I don't think Screen is scum. Early impressions, yes, but since turn of this day I don't think it. " But I'm having a hard time seeing anything involving day flip that makes screen town.

Creature and RedFlavor were cross voting each other at day end. Do we think it was a possible scum!Hammer??

I didn't have any read on Screen when he replaced in on day one, the vote he made was kinda weird but didn't look too much into it.

Early impressions at the turn of this day made me think he could be town. I could easily be giving it out too loosely and believing my own opinion, but I don't think he is scum at this minute.

And yes I believe that Red could easily be scum hammering for town credit. We still had a few days left till the deadline, why didn't he wait for Creature to claim? I don't see any town intentions from red hammering like he did, yes he may have been widely scum read but that still didn't warrant a hammer without a claim.

@Fitz, Red may have been on and off the Creature wagon, but that doesn't really spell anything. He could have easily been on and off believing that being on and off would make people doubt him. I'd have to double check the time stamps to when he jumped on and off, because I possibly think he may have joined the Creature wagon, then jumped off when something else came up but then jumped back on when he realised that his buddy was the inevitable lynch and hammered early to shut it down.

[Kop]

@Fitz, Red may have been on and off the Creature wagon, but that doesn't really spell anything. He could have easily been on and off believing that being on and off would make people doubt him. I'd have to double check the time stamps to when he jumped on and off, because I possibly think he may have joined the Creature wagon, then jumped off when something else came up but then jumped back on when he realised that his buddy was the inevitable lynch and hammered early to shut it down.

Kop...Red was not hopping on and off Creature. That was my point. There was commitment on Red's part to get Creature lynched. He did come off briefly to vote Una but he was on Creature from post 297 until 852. That is a shit load of opportunities to focus elsewhere. Jay was playing suspect as hell and Red stayed off that wagon. I didn't like Impede D1 and that wagon got up to L-2 with no Red vote on it. If Red was Creature's partner he had plenty of chances to make a legit move away from the Creature wagon. Especially when a large portion of the time Red was on it...it was at L-1 or L-2.

And if we are to believe there is no vig in the game as everyone has led Math to believe...then that means we have an SK and only ONE scum left. Which makes Red's presence (and everyone else for that matter) on Creature's wagon even less likely to be his scum partner. They could still be anti-town (SK) of course...but first things first IMO (i.e. get scum).

Also...

@Kop...why as a vig would you have not shot the player who was claiming your role to save his ass? Wouldn't that have been a preferred scum strategy to try and out a vig as a consolation to being lynched?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To those not voting (Anon, Hawk, sheep)...why aren't you voting?

It's all about the scenarios I would be in, working shit up. Is Jay really scum and trying to get me out there so they could kill me, or is Jay town trying to bait a night kill to take away from the others.

[Kop]

@Kop...ok. I can't see being a vig and not targeting someone claiming my role. Unless I think there is a chance there are two vigs...which I'm sure the math would prove was pretty unlikely.

I understand your point, I'd have to work out possible scenarios to know 100% what I would do in that situation.

[Kop]

UNVOTE: AnoynmousGhost

[Kop]

I can bet there's 0 scum coming to quick hammer him.
Momo is by far the best lynch today, we leave an inactive slot for the vig.
Tacos/red or something.

I'd also like address my reads in full, but mobile posting Sucks, so I'll try later.

Why is Momo the best lynch today?

[Kop]

@Dino

- Wisdom

Ooh~ That explains a lot.

- Page

Thanks for explaining.

- Vote

Dude hasn't answered my question anyway, so... #pettyreasonsftw

VOTE: Kop

What question did you ask me that I've failed to see?

[Kop]

Question...if we are in the 1 mafia 1 SK remaining configuration...that means we probably have 1 town PR still out there. How does helping scum narrow down what the final town pr might be (or who it might be) help town?

Because if we have 1 mafia 1 SK, the PRs I listed

literally can't exist

.

Double tracker requires III.
Gunsmith requires RR.
1-shot commuter requires HH.

Once you and Kop confirm that you're neither of these roles, we'll have almost-confirmed 1 mafia left.

I can confirm I'm neither of those roles.

VOTE: Red

I'll be happy to vote Red or Una at this stage.

[Kop]

Question...if we are in the 1 mafia 1 SK remaining configuration...that means we probably have 1 town PR still out there. How does helping scum narrow down what the final town pr might be (or who it might be) help town?

Because if we have 1 mafia 1 SK, the PRs I listed

literally can't exist

.

Double tracker requires III.
Gunsmith requires RR.
1-shot commuter requires HH.

Once you and Kop confirm that you're neither of these roles, we'll have almost-confirmed 1 mafia left.

I can confirm I'm neither of those roles.

VOTE: Red

I'll be happy to vote Red or Una at this stage.

I didn't mean red meant this

VOTE: Sheep

[Kop]

Because he flips scum.
When he flips scum, we can draw more associations based on that.
I wish I had the time and energy to do that full reread on D1 and actions around the wagon - there had to be people bussing, and I just wish Creature would've posted more before the hammer..

The thing that worries me about this post, is the fact that he says it with such confidence. From what I remember of day one, I don't see any associations with Creature that could point they are partners.

And he's basing a lynch on Momo that can draw further associations from it, and from what I'm reading and it's been quite clear, that we are most likely looking at 1 scum left so I don't know what possible associations we can be looking at.

I know that Ghost pointed me to his case on Momo, but I'd like to see Unas case against Momo because I overlooked his ISO and I don't see anything from Una that gave his reasons to why he scum reads Momo, and only voted for Momo after two votes piled onto that slot so he joined.

[Kop]

@Kop

@Una

- Without looking at D2 content, what happened to your A50 + momo case?

@Kop

- What's up w/ 322? You explained Jay, but left out Red.

@momo

- Do you really believe what you said in 385?

Ninja'd.

Did Kop answer your question?

@fitz

No.

What question did you ask me that I've failed to see?

If I remember correctly seen it was early doors, I didn't believe in the Red wagon. Similar to the Jay wagon, I just didn't feel it. If I felt that either of those wagons at the time would yeild scum, I would happily have backed them, but I just didn't believe either were scum.

[Kop]

Hawk that makes me feel uneasy about you. The last time I played with you when we were in lylo, I read you as scum hence why I hammered you, but looking between that game and this one, this one it doesn't feel like your town game.

UNVOTE: Sheep

Consider this at still L-1 but I don't want a potential hammer right now till everyone has chirped in.

[Kop]

Right now in my mind, I'm happy to have the intention of having Sheep at L-1 unofficially.

But I'm also having a consideration on putting focus on Hawk and Una.

I think the last mafia could be lying in between Hawk and Sheep.

[Kop]

what toxic attitude...

Telling people to fuckoff as a defence doesn't do anything to the gamestate.

[Kop]

And doesn't make people scum read you any less.

[Kop]

Implication: UnaBombaH is SK.

I really don't think so. I think Una is potential maf, but not SK. Regardless, you've convinced me to consider Una as possible scum. I have some ISOs to do to solidify this. Will try to make time today.

I await to see these, because in all honesty, I didn't see any possible connections that would make him Creatures partner. He feels more of a loner which means he is either town or the SK.

[Kop]

VOTE: Sheep

[Kop]

Right now, I don't know who to lynch. I pretty much suck at looking for SK tells. But If I was to guess who I believe isn't town, it would be Fitz or Screen.

If we lynched Fitz and he wasn't the SK, I would hypothetically check Screen.

[Kop]

VOTE: Fitz

[Kop]

UNVOTE:

[Kop]

VOTE: fitz

[Kop]

That's L-1 I believe.

[Kop]

Coming in on day 3 and seeing votes piling on me I didn't half shit myself. I thought I'm being lynched with out being able to say anything but I'm pleased that eventually math done a case on me and realised that I was town so went elsewhere. I

Had a feeling Fitz wasn't town, but only invited because I think we needed a bit more time to overlook a few things. Hawk has been in a similar situation even though that was lylo I didn't want to rush it through in case it backfired.

Good game guys and girls.

[Kop]

Unvoted not invited.