Open 705: Polygamist - Game Over
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Mathdino Survivor
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sup
I don't have access to my PT yet so I hope my lover hasn't planned out some elaborate reaction test without me
Hey lover.
I don't know about claiming lovers yet. I'm gonna check game history and see what They Who Came Before Us thought on the matter.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Yeah okay so
NO ONE CLAIM YOUR LOVERS YET
The wiki suggests that claiming early is bad but I'm still working through the literature on the subject
Another interesting thing is that lynching completely randomly actually benefits town. The problem is that random lynches don't happen because scum won't let it. I would actually be done with creating a townbloc that follows a dice tag in the thread. Would give us a 60% chance.
ANOTHER interesting thing is that scum can bus the fuck out of each other without actually lynching to look great in vote analysis. And that's probably something scum have already discussed so I'm comfortable sharing it here. So watch out for shitty VCA.
Not voting because it'll be obvious that whomever I vote isn't my lover.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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The irreversibility of the massclaim made me want to research it more beforehand.
A really good argument in the last Polygamist game (town win) went along the same lines. Claiming lovers means scum can't suddenly decide later on in the day who their "lovers" will be and also makes their defences public.
That said, it would be foolish at this point for scum to not decide beforehand what their "lover" pairs will be so they can act it out come daystart.
So I'm still working out how it actively helps us.
PS. Ahahahaha I just got access to my lover's PT and it was just them saying "hello". Good shit. Thanks for flaking, pisskop.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Counterproposal. Through the day, we'll probably as a town come together on a townread of someone.In post 8, DiamondSentinel wrote:1. Let's not play to win, so to speak. Let's just play to play a battle of wits. So, no random lynching.
That person will then dice roll 2 lynches that don't include themselves or their lover.
In effect, we'll be playing kingmaker.
If we're right about the king we elect being town, we then have an exactly 70% chance of winning by sheeping them.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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And since someone's going to ask, we have a 40% chance of winning if the person we elect is scum.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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In post 13, Sky_Paladin wrote:Hello all o/
My quick scan sees dice rolling as a tactic suggested. I appreciate the idea behind it but how to know that mafia aren’t loading the dice?
Also I kind of feel that using dice to decide goes against the spirit of the game.
I discussed claiming with my lover and we didn’t know if that was a good idea or not so I guess we will go with the flow.Original Roll String: 1d121 12-Sided Dice: (1) = 1-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Doesn't matter how many times I preview, I literally can't load the dice. The above would correspond to lynching RedFlavor.
I propose electing someone we think is town to roll the dice and vote for someone other than them and their lover. So yes it would involve them loading the dice but they wouldn't be able to control the dice. No one would.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Yeah that's fair. I guess me claiming doesn't really benefit me or town, but scum claiming does, so it's best to set a precedent.
Yo I'm lovers with Amrororawrachurrochora. Your turn?
Also why not dice lynch?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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I wonder if we'd have a higher chance of winning this game by playing kingmaker then, where the king we make straight up chooses the lynch straight up.
We model open games by assuming random lynch; the flaw being that lynches aren't random, and in a game with such a high percentage of scum, lynching scum is unlikely.
I wonder if we'd have better odds trying to townhunt and sheep.
Will come up with a model and get back to this.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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^i unironically believe this shit at face value and will in return also never lynch toranaga/sheep
Great progress on the scumhunting front, folks.
I on the other hand have made no progress in modeling kingmaking polygamist vs normal lynch polygamist. See you next year.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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An argument that jzhenson and my slot are both town:
Scum loves to whine to the mod when one of their members straight up doesn't show up.
These fuckers didn't post a single thing in their PTs (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong Tora) for 3 fucking days and the mod still started the game.
Locktown.
VOTE: Lalendra
as good a PoE vote as any-
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Mathdino Survivor
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OK well 4 of us already claimed so let's get a move on-
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Mathdino Survivor
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VOTE: cy
Sheeping sheep. Sheep me!-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Is this serious?In post 36, Sky_Paladin wrote:VOTE: DinoMath
'dice' + 'math' you can't defeat me with your mind tricks. Only money.
You would be surprised. Most open setups, scumhunting does help, and town's actual winrate is higher than its theoretical random winrate. This setup, town's winrate is far lower than the theoretical.In post 38, sheepsaysmeep wrote:i feel like with actual scumhunting instead of dice we can increase our chances of hitting scum?
That implies to me that scumhunting is mostly useless in this setup due to the high volume of scum affecting the lynches. Similar to how longer deadlines hurt town because it gives more time for scum to adapt.
Got back to thinking about the model I was talking about. The current history of this setup is done with scumhunting. It's much easier (I think) to townhunt and let that townie decide arbitrarily. If that townie's decision is COMPLETELY arbitrary, our winrate should be about 70%.
So since we seem to be in agreement that Tora/sheep are town, and given that sheep voted completely arbitrarily (on someone who hasn't even posted yet), I unironically think cy should be our lynch today. Since there's no nighttime I would even be good with a speedlynch here (long days are anti-town).
Cuz fuck playing for fun, I play to win.
i need to get more real friends-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Well sheep's vote is equivalent to a dice lynch so why not compromise and join the locktown wagon?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Not my fault the setup isn't great and makes dicelynching ideal xD
I see no reason to shy away from the arbitrarily lynching cytheflyguy/Lalendra strategy.
@cytheflyguy:What did you and Lalendra talk about last night?
Same question goes to@manrock.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Things might happen if you lay down a vote, buddy.In post 60, manrock wrote:is anything going to happen? still tired so I'll go to bed and wake up later
Vote cy, sheep the obvtownbloc.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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I plagiarised from the wiki and checked the Math myself (along with the Math on a few scenarios).In post 62, manrock wrote:Outside of that how does letting it rand actually help town? Seems more like a problem with the players actually being unable to catch scum instead of randomizing lynches making sense
Like I said. Most open setups are BENEFITED from non-random lynching. Strategy/scumhunting is easier when town is given multiple lynches and mafia comprises 22% or 23% of the town. Mafia can't drive mislynches over and over because that puts them in a shitty situation in LyLo.
In this setup, mafia is 33% of the town and we can literally only mislynch twice. Mafia has no need to set themselves up for a good lategame. They ONLY need to drive 2 mislynches. Given that most early lynches are on town, AND that mafia has the opportunity to influence the vote, the dice roller is likely to be better at catching scum than the 12 of us.
THAT SAID, the 8 of us who are actually town are likely to be collectively better at catching scum than the dice roller. The problem is we don't have a reliable way of filtering out the scum agenda.
That's why my counterproposal is to just pick someone we think is town and sheep them on some arbitrary wagon. This bumps up our chances considerably because it has a massive chance of filtering out the scum agenda.
So sheep sheep.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Tor/sheep and redflavor/manrock are all probably town. I thought I said that already.
You don't need to scumhunt if you can townhunt well. I know I'm way better at townhunting.
cytheflyguy/Lalendra then have a 2/3 chance of being scum. cy has done nothing to indicate townishness to me so I'm pretty comfortable parking here.
Do you have any reads beyond complaining about setup-breaking?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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I don't have a read on you. Toranaga towned it all the way up with that entrance.
manrock/Red have consistent interpretations of their lover PT. Honestly I just straight up believe them.
Also I'm not dice lynching
I'm just arbitrarily lynching someone you picked who's in neither my nor your lover PT who hasn't posted yet-
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Mathdino Survivor
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You had a townread on me in the first place? Have I actually said something alignment indicative already?
My whole thing in the open queue is:
1. Hyperposting
2. Setup-breaking
I happen to have the luck of consistently rolling town in the open games that are breakable (speaking for completed games ofc). So far there hasn't actually been any risk to myself of doing that all the time. I guess I could tell you that as scum I would just not setup-break but that would be WIFOMy as shit. I think the one time I did roll scum I pretended to try to setup-break that ultimately was useless because I PR-hunted every single PR at night and shot them before they could do shit.
Regardless, this strategy does objectively work, and I knew that when the setup showed up in the queue. It's part of why I didn't /in in the first place. I'm good if you guys don't want to dice lynch but if not that I'm going to substitute with some kind of reasonable alternative/effective substitute. Like sheeping your team.
Edit: Long deadlines/long conversations hurt town. I have EXTREMELY little confidence in my scumhunting abilities in this setup in particular. Ask me why if you're interested.-
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absolute bullshit especially for my playstyle but i can appreciate trying to early-read people based off toneIn post 74, sheepsaysmeep wrote:tone is ai-
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I'm sad you didn't bite because I wanted to talk about this. So I'm gonna nonconsensually rant at you. sorrynotsorryIn post 73, Mathdino wrote:Edit: Long deadlines/long conversations hurt town. I have EXTREMELY little confidence in my scumhunting abilities in this setup in particular. Ask me why if you're interested.
Mafia is a game of informed minority vs uninformed majority. Tone reading is bullshit except for coming up with early reads to talk about. There are 2 things that set town apart from scum:
1. Town doesn't have scumpartners. Scum does. Scum will act in some deliberate way toward their partners, be that defending, distancing, ignoring or bussing.
2. Town is only interested in lynching scum. Scum doesn't really give a shit who they lynch as long as at least one of them stays alive.
There's a setup called Friends and Enemies I played a while back with a 3-player mason team, a 3-player mafia team, and VTs. Interestingly, a bunch of people started scumreading the mason team because of point #1. That's actually kind of the point of the setup. Masons have to put up an act in order to not get shot, but doing so makes them massively scummy and creates associations. What makes the setup still good/scumhunty is that there are a bunch of VTs.
This setup consists of 4 mason teams and a 4 player mafia team that is pretending to be 2 mason teams. In this setup,what sets scum apart is:
1. Each scum "lover pair" is aware of another "lover pair" that they absolutely can't lynch. This, in theory, creates associations. Scum otherwise doesn't care who they lynch.
And that's really it. The problem is that EVERYONE has one other player that they absolutely can't lynch. This already fucks up our ability to scumhunt because now everyone has associations.
So in almost every past iteration of the game in which scum won, the scum did this by screwing up the only thing setting scum apart: they made it look like they were 100% willing to lynch each other. This breaks the major playstyle difference between town and scum. Because whether we want to be or not, EVERYONE is an informed minority, and that makes everyone act at least a little scummy (because they're going to be unwilling to lynch their lover). The last game (a town win) wasn't broken by massclaiming. It was won because scum played badly and didn't play their optimal strategy (which is looking as town as possible).
I'm not cocky enough to trust my own scumhunting ability above every past town. I have reason to believe that standard scumhunting techniques will work to our detriment this game.
The longer the day goes on, the more time scum has to distance from each other and make associations impossible.This isn't the kind of game where we can just lynch wildly until we hit scum and then find the rest of the scum from there. We just need to be able to lynch scum without scum interfering and derailing us.
No one wants to lynch by dice, I get that. If I were mod-confirmed town to you guys, I'd pick randomly by myself and insist town lynch them. But I recognise that you have no reason to trust me.
However, I trust Tora/sheep and I think you guys should too. Being my first townread, and being that sheep arbitrarily voted, I think voting cy/Lalendra before scum has a chance of mindscrewing us is to our benefit.
I'm basically asking for a speed lynch on a rando. Yeah, it's scummy under the lens of normal mechanics, whatever. I'll even let you waste a mislynch on me if you agree to follow my strategy tomorrow (would turn our odds into a coin flip). Cuz scum's gonna come in here and try to discredit all of this by arguing I'm anti-town and therefore scum (or maybe they won't now that I've predicted it, who knows). Don't care, my argument is just as right regardless of my alignment and regardless of whether I'm dead.
Vote cy, probably scum, don't let scum persuade you into bad reads.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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As predicted, AT LEAST one scum is trying to discredit me. And this is actually exactly why town winrates for this setup are far lower than random lynching. Scum has motivation and scum has numbers, and thus has some level of control over the town's conversation. I'm specifically trying to dominate the conversation with a quicklynch to counteract that. The best I can hope for is that town will listen and agree.
There are a few arguments against me that I'll respond to, although at least one of them is being made by scum so this is partially theatrics for the town, because the scum will never agree with me anyway:
SkyPaladin: You're literally right that scumhunting is near impossible in this setup. Those hydra interactions you're talking about are fucked. In normal mafia, bussing is a viable strategy. Here, bussing is suicide. So what does scum try to do all the time? They bus when applicable and screw up associative tells. Scumhunting is just a massive fucking can of WIFOM thatscum will win because they have the numbers. Scum can control the discussion. It's gonna get even worse tomorrow.
Lalendra: I'm not gonna unvote your team unless sheep does, so a conversation with you is unfortunately not too useful, since I'm uninterested in scumhunting. I would be okay however if, as we were about to lynch you, you arbitrarily picked a lynch for us at the end of the day. This kinda follows my whole "sheep an arbitrary townie's lynch target" strategy.
To respond to a couple things in particular:
"He even says that if he were confirmed town he would still choose randomly, but I don't believe that's true": Then you're just wrong, and you don't know enough about how I think to know you're wrong. Feel free to leaf through my open games if you're actually interested in sorting me (I won't expect it of you, but if it eases your mind, whatever). Sun shines, grass grows, Mathdino breaks setups. The main things that stop me are in the set of {obstinate townies, scared scum, D1 going majorly off the rails in some way}.
"The "I know this is scummy but we should do it anyway" just feels like backpedaling": I think you skimmed/missed the point in some way. IN A NORMAL GAME, what I'm doing would be massively scummy, because scumhunting increases town's winrate in normal games. In this game, scumhunting literally decreases our winrate, so I'm uninterested in scumhunting. I do believe I can come up with at least one townread, and I'm basing my entire game around that. Because that's where the math leads me.
@sheepsaysmeep:I see no reason to ever change my townread on your team. My plan if you lead us into a mislynch is to just ask you who to lynch tomorrow and follow that. This falls along the lines of "the longer the day goes on, the more time scum has to manipulate us". Changing my reads is anti-town because it's likely I'm being manipulated in some way.
@Diamond: Hint: there's basically no way to find scum in this situation, and trying has been proven time and time again to fail.
I don't really have much more response to Diamond, but for those of you interested in actual scumhunting, notice how neither Sky_Paladin nor Diamond are sure on how to scumhunt in this situation, so they both default to discrediting my solutionwhich is specifically to solve the "no real way to scumhunt" problem. So they're probably scum. Or maybe this is me confbiasing because they disagree with me. Dunno. At the very least I have no reason to townread them, so I'm sticking to sheep/Tora as my locktown team.-
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Meh. I don't really trust my own scumreads this game so I'm not gonna stake myself on a 1v1 with your team.
Like I said, I'm trying to townhunt, not scumhunt. So I'm sorting people into "townish or not townish" instead of "scummy or not scummy". The vibe I'm getting from your team thus far is "not town" and I don't really care to analyse much further. I'd be cool with a lynch on you guys but I'm not gonna spend time pushing it (remember, drawn out days are bad).
You are, at the very least, discrediting my idea, which is, I believe, anti-town-wincon. I do understand the "I have principles and thus will not play optimally because it's more fun that way" argument. But also keep in mind that from a scum's perspective, since my plan obviously hurts them, they have to choose between:
1. Discrediting Mathdino's idea
2. Discrediting Mathdino and calling him scum
So I'm a little on edge right now when it comes to dealing with disagreement. It wouldn't really help scum to go along with my idea.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Talking to myself here, but yeah this is actually really bad :/In post 88, Mathdino wrote:It wouldn't really help scum to go along with my idea.
12 players, 4 scum who are probably gonna come up with a reason to go against the idea, then the idea can only handle 2 defections. Needs 3 teams to go along with it.
That said I'm sticking to my guns of "scumhunting is bad for town" based on the data, so if you guys decide to start scumhunting, I'm just gonna keep sheeping Tora/sheep and hope they're right. Feel free to lynch me if they vote for a team other than my own, and I for some reason decide not to sheep them. That would basically indicate me as scum, because I should have no reason to suddenly change my mind and be like "yeah wait I was okay with sheeping you on Team X, but not if you're trying to lynch Team Y" unless I was scum with Team Y.
PEdit: Lalendra/cy is one scumread (I think we lucked out on that, which is good for my brain because I don't have to go against my gut) and I guess Sky/Diamond is null-scummy. I'm lowkey townreading Kop/BigFinn being massively inactive. Partially by the "scum likes to whine about inactive partners" argument.-
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That's fair, and I can respect that. Just understand my perspective, which is that scum IS FORCED to say something along the lines of what you just said. Doesn't mean you're scum, but it does mean I have to be suspicious of that.In post 91, DiamondSentinel wrote:I'm not saying your idea is wrong. That's clearly false (although considering that town loses this more often than not in practice, we can't count on theory). I'm saying that I'm not willing to play that way.
So, naturally, that means that my read on you and my dislike of your idea are disconnected.
PEdit: Also, if you don't trust your scumreads, then sheep people. The answer to "I don't trust my instincts" is not to say "so fuck everyone else's, let's random vote!"
And yeah that's literally my whole strategy lol. I'm personally kingmaking the Tora/sheep team and I'll follow their vote (I can only hope that their vote is as arbitrary as possible). I can provide input under traditional scumhunting but I would hope people understand that with that input is a massive disclaimer saying"I am probably being manipulated by the high volume of scum in this game!"
My best scumhunting is during LyLo. I don't think I've ever lost a LyLo. Lot of information to deal with, lot of associations. I don't think I can win this in 2 days though.-
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And I completely disagree with you on that, and if you're town, you kind of are implying I'm not good by pushing an idea you think is bad. I know that I'm only doing this from a town standpoint. I'm guessing this debate will be more applicable postgame though since you don't know that (again assuming you're town).In post 93, Sky_Paladin wrote:MathDino, that's a big strawman. Town can completely disagree with your idea because it's a pants idea. I'm not calling you bad or stupid for it, I'm saying it's scum to push the agenda that it's too hard to scumhunt so we should just roll a dice instead, and that's why I'm voting you.
Vote count analysis/vote analysis/holding people accountable for their votes - these are things that hold true in regular games and will certainly hold true in this game. To pretend otherwise is the scum agenda.
I would love for this to be an ordinary game. But I have to go with what the evidence suggests, which is that going through the motions of scumhunting hurts town in this setup. Incidentally, it's been shown that longer deadlines/longer days also hurts town in regular games (scum has more time to manipulate, town has more time to second guess its good early reads), but I can't really do anything about that.
On a sidenote, my latest obsession is learning economics, and I'm beginning to realise that the focus on game theory and modeling things has seriously impacted my play.-
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To more specifically respond to this, I know that town CAN disagree with it. That's beside the point: I'm saying that scum MUST disagree with it. So I naturally must consider that anyone who disagrees with it could be scum.In post 93, Sky_Paladin wrote:Town can completely disagree with your idea because it's a pants idea.
This obviously comes from the perspective that the ideas I've been proposing are objectively more optimal for town, which is supported by the evidence and the literature and no one's really disproved me on that outside of "it's disingenuous to play that way".-
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Lettered your points to respond to them.In post 98, Sky_Paladin wrote:A. Can you please explain why you disagree that vote count analysis, vote analysis, and holding people accountable for their vote, are worthwhile scumhunting tools in this game.
I do not mean to say that you are 'not good'. I think your idea is a poor one, in that it adversely impacts town, but it does not mean I think poorly of you. I just think that any idea that asks us to trade our experience and scumhunting tools for the random hand of fate, is more likely to come from a scum player than a town player.
B. Then treat it as such. This is no different to a regular game where the setup is known and night phase is skipped.I would love for this to be an ordinary game.
C. No, they don't. Scum can agree with it all the way up until we actually roll a dice and it happens to come up with a scum name. They'll happily go along with it as long as it's a towny being lynched and we'd never known until game over. I think statistically the dice roll favors scum - the first roll is 8/12 in hitting town, and the second roll is 6/12. That's a better than 50% chance, if my napkin math is correct, of scum winning off the rolls.I'm saying that scum MUST disagree with it.
A. I reviewed the evidence. Open setups are often designed around a theoretical winrate that results from random lynching. For example, in a 2 scum vs 7 townies game, assuming mafia shoots every night, the theoretical winrate is 37.2%. Adding power roles increases that, and allowing real life towns to play the game as it's intended to be played (scumhunting) increases that further.
This open setup has a 60% theoretical winrate. Its actual winrate? 36%. That'sfucking abysmal. And my opinion of the last game is that town only won because scum played like shit. The fact that 2/3 of the other town wins were the first couple times this setup was even played supports that hypothesis.
So either one believes that previous towns are horrible and "oh man, my scumhunting is so much better, I can do better than that", or you realise thatnon-random lynching actually hurts town's winrate.From the wiki:
Emphasis mine. I believe that town's low winrate from a strategy of real scumhunting is due to the fact that most towns lynch town early on due to scum manipulation, and in my experience, only come to their senses in LyLo. We can't afford to clown around going through the motions of scumhunting, being wrong, and correcting later on.At the end of Open 88 it was proposed that this setup inherently favors Town. By randomly lynching, the Town has a 60% chance of winning. However,truly random lynches will not occur in practice because scum cannot and will not lynch themselves; further, it was noted that scum voting each other up to L-1 would make them consistently look great under vote analysis. It was also discussed that massclaim should occur either early Day 2 or very late Day 1 to keep scum Lover claims as implausible as possible. See also White Flag Gambit.We have 2 days.
I can understand why you might think that. Look at this from a scum-me point of view.
I, as scum, come in and read up on the setup and previous games (unless you think I didn't do this, but I'm pretty sure I've shown that I have), and see that classic scumhunting gives scum a 64% winrate. I'm in general a pretty difficult-to-early-lynch player (you can factcheck me on this one) when I play like I normally do. So the scum-me narrative requires me deciding, "fuck that 64% winrate and fuck my own ability to not get lynched, I'm gonna suggest a plan that objectively has a 60% chance of fucking my team over, a plan that's clearly unpopular and might get me lynched even trying to implement it, and I'm gonna carry that plan through the game". Doing this would literally be not playing to my wincon to the best of my abilities.
Now you could argue that this is all WIFOM and I'm only doing that for towncred. But I wasn't saying "don't lynch me". I was saying "random lynching is a better strategy for town than lynching based on scumreads".
B. This is different to a regular game, because we only have 1 mislynch available. Most games, we'd have more flips to analyse. This is essentially 2v4 Mountainous Nightless where the 2 scum hydrae are lovers. Odds are bad.
C. If scum do that, then it'll be pretty obvious that they're scum. And no, the dice roll doesn't favour scum, you're doing your math wrong.
The probability of scum winning this by random lynch is 8/12*6/10 = 2/3*3/5 = 2/5 = 40%. Thus the probability of town winning is the inverse, 60%.
I'm happy to talk math with you all day but understand that probability/game theory is literally my specialty, and I've calculated all this beforehand.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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smh i've failed my town at communication
Spoiler: me arguing with people (SkyPaladin and RedFlavor) about math-
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Mathdino Survivor
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I have a response to this that I can't use because that game is ongoing. This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't use or talk about ongoing games. Do the meta on me. Realise how my play might vary game to game depending onIn post 106, Lalendra wrote:This isn't the first time I've played with you. And no, I don't believe that as town you would be espousing this kind of strategy. Feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion.
A. the setup
B. my role
Again, you're literally suggesting that as scum, I would be espousing the kind of strategy that creates a 40% winrate for my team, rather than playing the game normally and winning likethe majority of my predecessors in this setup. THAT would be idiotic. And to suggest I would do that is kind of insulting to my intelligence. The ONLY argument I would accept for why I'm doing this as scum is "oh he's telling everyone the objectively optimal town strategy just for the towncred", and even doing that would be hilariously risky. But doing this does not create an edge for scum.
Yes. My scumreads have a long sad history of being wrong on D1 and D2. I'm a fantastic LyLo player and an okay early player (my main strength as an early player is not getting myself lynched). The dice have a better chance of being right than I do. This does not apply to other setups. I would not suggest this in other setups. But in this setup, it's correct.In post 106, Lalendra wrote:Speaking in terms of probability, yes, scumhunting decreases our winrate. HOWEVER, I am far more comfortable with the idea of scumhunting, and coming up with meta/associative/scummy tells, than I am with picking random targets.
On that note, let me ask - if you had a scumread on someone, would you still be using this approach? i.e., would you forgo your scumread and trust the dice? Because that seems like playing against your wincon imo.
Notice that I'm doing something that's effectively equivalent to picking a random target, which is saying "Hey guys, sheep/Tora are town, I'm just gonna sheep their vote". If we model their scumreads as essentially random, I get what I want, which is 2 somewhat arbitrary lynches, and you guys get what you want, which is someone who's actually theoretically scumhunting (just not me).
In post 106, Lalendra wrote:I like that you at least acknowledge the fact that you're scumreading people just for not agreeing with you, but I still think you should be a little more open-minded. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they're scum.
I don't know how I can be clearer on this.In post 106, Lalendra wrote: Wait...but above you said that you were scumreading Sky/Diamond for disagreeing with you. Yet here, you acknowledge that people can disagree with you and still be town?
- Town CAN disagree with it. Towns are generally bad.
- Scum MUST disagree with it. Scum would have to be monumentally bad to go along with this idea.
So if someone agrees with the idea, that to some extent shows they're probably town (unless everyone agrees in which case scum is just acting like they agree for the towncred). If someone disagrees with the idea, they could be either, but it makes it slightly more likely they're scum.
I don't know how I'm being inconsistent here. I was asked to come up with scumreads, and I can do that to the best of my ability, but I still don't actually trust my scumreads so fuck it.
I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, this is why scumhunting lowers town's winrate. Taking into account all of those things, scum tends to win over town by not lynching other scum, and convincing people to lynch town. Town would literally have a better winrate if they were all robots or computers. That vacuum BENEFITS TOWN. That's why I'm trying not to take into account all of those things.In post 106, Lalendra wrote:In post 106, Lalendra wrote:I'm not big on doing the math in setups because I feel that math only works in a vacuum where you don't take into account unpredictable and unquantifiable things such as people's opinions, behavior, psychology, willfully doing things that they otherwise wouldn't just to throw people off their meta, etc. However, Sky's example above is pretty much exactly why I'm not comfortable with Math's approach.-
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You're right, of course. This doesn't change the outcome because of how combinatorics works, but I did make a mistake on how I showed that outcome.In post 108, RedFlavor wrote:Dice roller has a 4/12 chance of being scum which is equal to 33%
Redone expected value calculation:
33% chance dice roller is scum: For scum to win, they have to mislynch town D1 (8/10) and then D2 (6/8).
8/10 * 6/8 = 3/5 = 60%
Town winrate here is 40%.
66% chance dice roller is town: For scum to win, they have to mislynch town D1 (6/10) and then D2 (4/8).
6/10 * 4/8 = 3/10 = 30%
Town winrate here is 70%.
Expected value:
1/3 * 40% + 2/3 * 70% = 0.6 = 60%
The 60% winrate as expected.-
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If anyone doesn't believe me on the math side of things, I can write a script in Python (or any programming language that someone else here can verify) that simulates 100 games and shows the winrate.
I'm bored and I could use the programming exercise so Imma go do that now.-
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In post 115, RedFlavor wrote:There is no reason for scum to roll a dice, they could just say lynch A and lynch B who are actually town membersOriginal Roll String: 6d106 10-Sided Dice: (7, 3, 9, 3, 4, 1) = 27
Here's 6 random numbers. Use the dice tag, put "1d10" inside it, and that was the original dice rolling plan.-
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I'm not suggesting that I be the one to roll the dice.
I'm suggesting sheep/Tora do it.-
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Well, you're town, and RedFlavor's team is town. So Lalendra/cy and Sky/Diamond each should have a 2/3 chance of being town?In post 122, sheepsaysmeep wrote:mathdino, what do you think is the probability that the ppl arguing against you are actually the town who think the strategy is bad, and the scum who think it does help town are just staying silent?
From your perspective, if you still don't think I'm town, should be 2/4 for each of them.
If you wanna lynch the silent team, go ahead. I'll literally sheep whatever your vote is. I'm just telling you I specifically have more of a problem with those teams, and I think it'll be easier to get a lynch on someone who disagrees with me than someone who agrees with me.-
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hahahaha nothing means anythingIn post 124, manrock wrote:1. What content? apparently the best idea in this setup is too randomly lynch, so what am I supposed to talk about? "Oh random lynch a is better than random lynch b for no absolute reason"
You should read the Sad Existential Spiraling Depression thread in the Speakeasy when you get the chance. It basically sums up this game for me!-
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Incorrect. I'm speaking as if I don't know my own alignment right now (imagine me being an IC in a newbie game): Supposing I got lynched, based on the data, the very fact that town was able to lynch me non-randomly makes it insanely more likely that I'm town, as almost all purposeful lynches in this setup are on town.In post 133, DiamondSentinel wrote:But the probability of hitting scum with MathDino is exactly the same as if we lynch randomly.
I would be okay if my townreads rolled the dice and decided to lynch me. I would obviously not support that with my vote because I know my alignment, but the chance of getting dicerolled into a self lynch is a chance I have to take in order to implement optimal strategy.
Basically I'm against purposeful lynches and I'm in favour of arbitrary ones. If you had said "Let's lynch [this specific player that I'm scumreading] and then random lynch tomorrow" I'd be equally uncomfortable with that. Because again, the very fact that we're able to come to a lynch on someone makes it more likely that player is town.-
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This is also correct.In post 132, sheepsaysmeep wrote:
this is bullshitIn post 128, DiamondSentinel wrote:How about this. Let’s lynch MathDino, and if they turn out to be town, we can random Lynch tomorrow.
only one random lynch has low chance of hitting scum
I could crunch the numbers on our winrate if we made a purposeful D1 lynch and then an arbitrary one tomorrow (such as one decided by the team we lynch today). I'd expect the winrate to be around 50%, but I'm not sure.-
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Alright, so based on game history, 2/12 of purposeful (non-arbitrary) D1 lynches were on scum. 10/12 were on town. So if we purposefully lynch D1 and then random lynch D2, scum has aIn post 137, DiamondSentinel wrote:Winrate around 50%. Well that’s fine.
~10/12 * 6/10 = ~5/6 * 3/5 = ~1/2 = ~50% chance of winning.
Huh I guessed exactly right. That's cool.
Okay rude. I've been playing the game by talking to people. I've even provided reads as asked. I'm playing my way by sheeping someone I consider trustworthy, which I consider equivalent to a random lynch.In post 137, DiamondSentinel wrote:Now shut the fuck up about random lynching and actually play the game. If you want to rando-lynch, go to fucking Vegas.
I'd actually be cool with a policy lynch on this. Pretty sure policy lynches are effectively arbitrary.
What's funny is I'm also the only one here who has given actual reads on people that aren't on me. So the misrep is, yknow, appreciated.-
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Hey dude if 6 other players are willing to random lynch based on a dice roll, I'd go for that. But they're not, and coming up with a lynch that's random TO ME is the Poor Man's Version. I can just hope that they're not in some way unduly influenced by scum.In post 139, Lalendra wrote:
Except it's not at all random. That person is choosing a lynch target, and while it could be random TO YOU, because you aren't involved in the process of choosing, it is not at all random and quite subjective to that person. So this is going directly against what you've been suggesting all game.In post 138, Mathdino wrote:I'm playing my way by sheeping someone I consider trustworthy, which I consider equivalent to a random lynch.
The fact that no one else seems to be wanting to join the awesome/arbitrary wagon on your team if anything indicates to me that it's probably actually on scum. If someone from literally every team had hopped on by now, I'd start to get suspicious because I'd start to think that the lynch was in fact not random and was supported by scum.
That tell is of course null now that I've actually said it, so everyone jumping on after this post wouldn't actually change my mind at all.-
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Oh yeah and I coded the setup.
Modeled as 6 players, 2 random mafia, and 2 random lynches. Town wins if one lynch is on mafia. Loops 1000 times. The winrate hovers around 600.
I can do the same thing for the hypothetical narrative in which we randomly select someone as a townie to roll 2 lynches on anyone other than them, but I think you guys get the point by now.
The theoretical winrate in that scenario would be 70%, assuming we select a townie.-
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1. No, I replaced in after the topics were closed. All Amrorachurrolola said in the PT was "Hello". Also if you ISO me you'll see that I didn't support this out the gate; I quickreplaced in and then did the research over the course of the first couple pages.In post 146, Sky_Paladin wrote:Did you discuss this strat with your buddy, Amra (iirc?) they have yet to post in here their thoughts. Or at all.
My thoughts are that town supposedly has a higher winrate via scumhunting. You cited that 'scum were just terrible' or am I misappropriating the situation.
I could abide by a random vote except I would then immediately replace out because there's no point playing and I expect others might do the same.
Even if this strat is optimal, is it something you truly wish to enforce?
@Diamond People can legitimately be switched off by your attitude in 137 and could easily have provoked sheep's 144. It's not AI. A quick ISO of sheep shows that they're mostly non-committal about the dice rolling thing anyway.
2. I look at the setup history and note that with the exception of the very last time this setup was run, town hasn't won since scum in general figured out how to properly play this setup. I attribute town's win last time to scum playing like shit and not realising how to play this. I'm not gonna go that far into how I believe scum should optimally play this setup for fairly obvious reasons. But the point is that I think towns really only win when scum makes themselves lynchable.
The only other game where town won on the first lynch was in 2009 when Mastin had internet issues and practically got herself policy lynched (her playstyle was shit back then).
3. I want to win and so I'll go with the most random(ish) option possible from my perspective.
I believe scumhunting is near impossible in this setup, but I actually do have some faith in townhunting. My contribution is that I believe sheep/Tora are town and Red/whoever his partner is are also probably town. As such I'll arbitrarily lynch any of the remaining teams.
I recognise right now that most people on the playerlist aren't willing to dicelynch, and I'm okay with that, but doing an effective equivalent is the best strategy available to me personally.-
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I developed this read on page 2 and have no reason to change my mind. No offence intended at all, but in line with my strategy, I especially have no reason to change my mind based on talking to you about the read, because you might be scum subtly influencing me. But to explain further:In post 148, Sky_Paladin wrote:Could you please break down for me why you're tr Sheep/Tora, as far as I can see:
Sheep - a bunch of trivial townreads, including a reversed read on Diamond and yourself in the space of a few hours, mainly pagetop empty spam posts, and meta-type posts (posting relationship chart, dice psuedo vote).
Tora - No real...posts? The samurai avatar does make me want to inherently trust it.
The most thing this slot seems to have is a townread on your slot.
I'm mainly interested in why you are townreading this slot and if there's something I've missed.
In post 25, Toranaga wrote:random lynch GOAT
also I'm lovers with someone I forgot which makes me lock town
also never lynching amrochora even if she is a wolfI straight up believe this shit at face value. That's really it. Seems unfaked to me. Also seems like both of them buddying up to my slot early on (not lynching Amro even if she's a wolf, ) has low utility as scum because that kind of thing would just make their slot scummy in a normal game. Might make people draw connections to my slot, or might make people think they're intentionally trying to make my slot look scummy. Either way, gets them lynched. Scum is self-conscious.
I absolutely see the low-effortness and critiques of their play. In every way, their slot comes across to me as VI town. I think they both started townreaded me mostly because I townread them (bad reason, they're clearly not used to dealing with super good scum).
This actually playsperfectlyinto my strategy. By sheeping this slot all game, I'm effectively saying that their scumhunting abilities are equivalent to a completely random lynch (sorrynotsorry).-
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I'm gonna stop you right there. The anti-dice-rolling faction already won. At this point it's an egofight. Some are scumreading me because they think my plan is anti-town. I'm proving that it's not.In post 156, cytheflyguy wrote:This is a game of majority rules. The minority has to bend the will to the majority. Whoever wins will decide how this game will be played and we can move on.
My personal plan right now is to sheep someone whose scumhunting abilities I consider equal to the scumhunting abilities of a dice roll. I find this an effective compromise. Hopefully the guy I'm sheeping also manages to actually drive a lynch. We'll see I guess.
You guys can do what you will. If you want me to pretend I'm playing a normal game, I can do that when you ask. Notice that during that time a few of us have actually come up with reads.
This is a smart take on the matter, and you're either scum or a much better townie than sheep/Tora. I'm not actually sure if I'd do this as scum (it's kinda hard for me to think that way), but the only reason I would ever do this as scum is to gain mad towncred on the basis of me always being the setup-breaking guy.In post 156, cytheflyguy wrote:Also, idgaf what he says. I find this very WIFOM. If I was smart in math like that, I'd do that regardless of role. There's nothing to lose from it imo. I don't scum read him for it because I feel any role could pull this off. If he's scum and is the one to roll, and he excludes himself, he only has to avoid 2 people to be lynched, and those are good odds. If he's town, then the odds apply better for town.
I would point out that I'm suggesting that someone OTHER than me "rolls the dice" so-to-speak (like I said I consider their vote about as good as a dice roll). This only benefits scum-me mathematically if and only if I'm scum with sheep/Tora. If you're afraid of that specific situation, paranoia away. If not, I think that one point is moot.
I'd ask you for reads but I'm not actually interested. So I'm just gonna point out player-to-player that you're kinda being hypocritical by complaining more about the random lynch discussion when
A. I personally have moved on from the dream of a truly random lynch
B. You haven't given reads, while sheep and I have.
I'm not saying it's alignment indicative of you but I do think you should put your money where your mouth is
This is a fucking hilarious quote, and I for one would love if Jack the Ripper came back from the dead and rolled us into Economics WonderlandIn post 158, cytheflyguy wrote:
I'm sorry, but I don't care if Jack the Ripper himself is coming back from the dead and rolling. I just want to play mafia not Economics WonderlandIn post 157, sheepsaysmeep wrote:yo im the one rolling
I might sig this post-game.
Both your reads are bad since their posts aren't really alignment indicative. But whatever, if you change your vote, I'll grudgingly follow, seems equally arbitrary to me.In post 160, sheepsaysmeep wrote:sring diamond-
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Oh shit I forgot to say the most important thing.This is a game of majority rules. The minority has to bend the will to the majority. Whoever wins will decide how this game will be played and we can move on..This is exactly why scum has a high winrate
You can argue that mafia is, by principle, a majority rules game all you want. But you have to accept that that MASSIVELY hurts town in this setup, as the presence of scum makes it HIGHLY unlikely that majority actually lynches scum. And remember that scum MUST vote against any random proposal where a non-scumfuck is rolling the dice, because they'd likely lose otherwise. That's in addition to the townies who just don't like the idea. So your side already won this.
I have an inherent distrust of any majorities that form in this setup because of the high volume of scum. If you wanna take a stab at being a better scumhunter than literally every other town that's ever played this setup, just remember to take that into account.Scum heavily influences the majority.-
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Alright, then I understand your position (though I unfortunately can't outright townread you for it).
In theory, I agree with you. In practice, towns are shit at scumhunting in this setup because of a couple good scum strategies (one is in the wiki, the others I'm not sharing unless it seems really necessary to later on) that effectively nullify the usual associations. I don't take myself to be a significantly better scumhunter than every previous town that's tried, and even if I am, the chance that I can actually push a lynch on a correct scumread is super-low due to scum influence over the state of the discussion. If every lover pair votes together, it requiresevery non-scum pairto agree on a scumlynch for it to work. Even if a scum joins the scum wagon (as they should to not make obvious associations), it still requires a huge number of townies to agree.
I'm a good LyLo player because my playstyle is to make shitty reads early on, cause inevitable mislynches, and then solve the whole game. Flips and actually reaching the lynch (and the hammerer) are important. In this game, we'll only ever have one flip. That's not enough.
I'll lay out my criterion. In order for me to agree with a non-arbitrary lynch, or agree to lynching based on scumhunting, you'll have to propose some kind of strategy now or later on that is clearly and significantly better than the scumhunting strategies of every previous town. If we do this the normal way, scum will almost certainly win. That's been proven.-
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Activity is abysmal.
Based on nothing in particular (PoE and lack of a townread), Kop/BigFinn is likely to be a scum pair. I was townreading the lack of activity from their slot because scum likes to complain about absent partners, but if Finn totally siteflaked it's not like mod could've/would've done much.
RedFlavor is probably joking. If he's being serious, is either town or scum actively posturing as much as possible since I kept being like "SCUM WOULD NEVER AGREE WITH MY IDEA" when the idea actually had a possibility of happening.
Yawn.
Can we speedlynch someone yet?-
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Also idk townreading me and my ideas without openly agreeing to some variation of it (like avoiding scumhunting through a speedlynch) is a really nice way to try to get off my radar without helping me do the actual thing that helps town.
So there's that. But what the fuck do I know, I'm purposefully sheeping the most VI slot I can find. Sheep me guys, I know what I'm talkin about.-
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Got any ideas, chief?
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I'm not sure helping you scumhunt is actually pro-town cuz scumhunting is scummy.
But whatever if it helps get the game going, gimme a second-
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62. manrock: How does dicelynching actually help?
67. Mathdino: Cuz it's easy for scum to force 2 mislynches. sheep sheep.
71. sheep: Wtf u on abt
73. Mathdino: I pathologically break setups.
77. Mathdino: The longer the day goes on, the more time scum has to distance from each other and make associations impossible. Speedlynch whoever some random townie wants to lynch pls.
79. Sky: Why play if you're just gonna dice lynch? Also votes should be accountable.
80. Sky: This is basically a hydra game and we're looking for scummy hydra interactions. Also my lover is Diamond and we weren't sure whether to claim.
81. Lalendra: Math is probably scum, I don't like his aggression/vibes and he wouldn't random lynch as town.
86. Mathdino: Lol scum tryna discredit me. Scumhunting is super unlikely to work in this setup. Sky/Diamond could be scum but what the fuck do I know.
87. Diamond: I'm against random lynching on principle, and it's pathetic to say "Those who discredit my idea are scum".
88. Mathdino: Meh, not scumreading you, but not agreeing to a dicelynch means you're not for sure town to me. Not continuing this argument because scumhunting is bad.
89. sheep: Do you have any scumreads Math?
90. Mathdino: We're probably doomed because my ideas can't even handle 1 townteam defection, so we lose majority. Also scumreading Lal/cy, nullscum Sky/Diamond, townread Finn/Kop.
91. Diamond: Your idea isn't necessarily wrong, I just don't wanna play that way. Sheep people if you don't actually care about scumreads.
92. Mathdino: That's what I'm doing.
93. Sky: Town could just disagree with you because it's a bad idea. We should hold people accountable for their votes. And get better scumreads.
96. Mathdino: This isn't a regular game. Evidence shows scumhunting is bad.
97. Mathdino: I know town COULD disagree. Just saying that scum is FORCED to disagree because my idea hurts scum.
98. Sky: Please explain why VCA isn't worthwhile in this game. Also random lynching twice is likely to hit town both times.
101. Diamond: I'm sexually attracted to Sky. [jk, you still paying attention?]
102. Mathdino: Town has a horrible winrate, which indicates standard scumhunting is worse than random lynching. And here's a bunch of math to prove it. And it'd be idiotic for me as scum to suggest an idea that 7 times out of 10 makes scum lose.
103. Sky: Random lynching is likely to hit town on both D1 and D2. I'd take those odds as scum.
104/105. Red: *incorrect math that I can't really summarise because it's wrong enough that idk where he went wrong*. Also scum can just rig the dice.
106. Lalendra: You're statistically right, Math, but I still like scumhunting more. Would you vote your scumreads over what the dice say? Also what are you scumreading people for exactly?
107. Mathdino: *shows my work on the probability side*. Also dice roller can't be rigged.
108. Red: *correctly points out an error in Math's calculations*
109. Mathdino: You don't know what I'd do as town, Lalendra, and ongoing game isn't representative. Also if we had more days, scumhunting would be great, but we have 2, and we're more likely to hit town by scumhunting. Also I'm not scumreading people for disagreeing with me, I'm just not-townreading them.
110/111. Mathdino: *corrects the error in my calculations, but it doesn't change the result*. brb writing a python script for this game.
112. Red: Scum could just not actually roll the dice and say they did.
113. Mathdino: No the forum has a built in dice roller, they can't.
114. Lalendra: But Math is suggesting that whoever rolls the dice not include themselves on the random list. Scum then benefits. Math's approach benefits scum.
115. Mathdino: Yeah but I'm suggesting sheep/Tora roll the dice, not me.
122. sheep: The people who disagree with you could just be town who think your idea is bad. Thoughts?
123. Mathdino: They're honestly just likely to be scum by PoE. Your call on who we lynch.
128/133. Diamond: Let's lynch Mathdino today and then random tomorrow. Probability of hitting scum with Mathdino is the same as random lynch.
129. Red: Math's probably town because scum wouldn't suggest an idea that helps town.
134. Mathdino: The very fact that you can get a lynch on someone makes them more likely to be town, because scum helped you with the lynch. So whoever you lynch (especially if it's me) is likelier to be town than scum.
135. Mathdino: I'm guessing that the town winrate of a D1 scumhunting lynch then a D2 random lynch would be around 50%.
137. Diamond: I'll take those odds. Let's play the game. *says so abrasively*
138. Mathdino: Yeah I crunched it to exactly 50%. Also, rude. I've been giving reads bro.
139. Lalendra: Wait, but sheeping someone you townread isn't actually random, it's only random TO YOU.
140. Mathdino: Sheeping a townread is the closest to a random vote I can personally get. Random lynch won't actually happen.
141. Mathdino: I coded the setup, random lynch wins 60% of the time. If we PoE out a town lover pair, it's 70%.
142. Lalendra: Fair points, but the reason no one is sheeping is because there haven't been actual good concrete reasons for any reads yet.
146. Sky: Okay, random lynching is viable. But do you actually wanna do that? Cuz I don't. Did you talk to your lover about this? Diamond should be less abrasive.
147. Mathdino: No I didn't. And I get that no one wants to random lynch, so I'm doing the closest I can.
148. Sky: Doesn't make sense for Math to be scum if he's pushing this idea all by himself. Also why townread sheep/Tora?
149. Diamond: Sorry for being abrasive. I still don't wanna random lynch.
152. Mathdino: I didn't say sheep/Tora are high quality players, just that they're town because *tone* and *reasons*. I'm sheeping them because their vote is equivalent to a dice roll.
156. cy: This conversation is stupid, we need to end it. Let's take it to a vote. I vote not random lynching. Also Math could just be scum excluding himself from the random roll.
157. sheep: No I'm the one rolling
161. Mathdino: Let's not vote. My idea already lost. I'm just gonna sheep a guy and scumhunt when asked. Also sheep's reads are shit but that's kinda the point.In post 158, cytheflyguy wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't care if Jack the Ripper himself is coming back from the dead and rolling. I just want to play mafia not Economics Wonderland
162. Mathdino: Also, this being a game of majority rules is exactly why scum wins this setup all the time. Too much scum in the town, sways the majority.
163. cy: I just wanna get on with the game. I agree scum influences the majority, and we can watch out for that as we scumhunt. That + PoE = win.
164. Mathdino: I understand, but a couple scum strategies nullify scumhunting. The history of this setup is evidence that scumhunting is bad. If you have a good scumhunting strategy that's never been tried before, I might agree with you.
165. Red: Oh shit let's have Math roll the dice [sidenote: I never suggested that I roll the dice lol]
166. cy: I'm townleaning Math, not sure on Red, not sure on anyone.
The rest you've probably read.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Also I'm gonna immediately lose respect for anyone who tries to say my last post is actually alignment indicative (and I'm gonna laugh if sheep calls me town for effortposting).
Fuckin bored and if a shitton of explicit IIoA helps move the game on, I'm game.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Hey, Mr. "I hate random lynching, we should be scumhunting" and Mr. "Partners with the guy whose catchphrase is that we should be held accountable for our votes".In post 180, DiamondSentinel wrote:Only scum would give such a blatantly biased TL;DR like that. You're definitely scum
You wanna lay down a vote so we can get the game moving?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Sheep, can you start posting this every pagetop?In post 83, sheepsaysmeep wrote:pairs:
tor and sheep
mathdina and amrochora
redflavor and manrock
cy and lalendra
diamon and sky
kop and bigfin-
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Mathdino Survivor
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this game makes me want to gag
i don't actually LIKE my strategy or the fact that scumhunting is bad/scummy
but i have to recognise that it's true or else i'll probably drive a mislynch :/
we honestly just need people to start voting-
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Mathdino Survivor
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This right here is unfuckingacceptable. Especially for a playerlist that in large part has found beef with me because "people should be accountable for their votes" and "we need to get the game going" and "is anything happening other than a dumb random lynch strategy?" and "I prefer to use actual scumhunting, thanks".In post 154, LlamaFluff wrote:Not Voting (9) - cytheflyguy, Kop, RedFlavor, BigFinn, DiamondSentinel, manrock, Amrochora, Toranaga, Sky_Paladin
I don't care if Amro and Finn are MIA. This is essentially a 6 person game. If you seriously think you can come up with reads, do it with the evidence at hand and VOTE PLS.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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You're either scum or dangerously bad town when it comes to the end goal of getting a majority.
Sheeping sheep is the objectively correct thing to do.
BROKE: Not voting and not scum/townhunting
JOKE: Not voting and scum/townhunting
WOKE: Voting and explicitly not scum/townhunting-
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Mathdino Survivor
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LOL
YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO SHEEP ME OR MY READS
MY VOTE STANDS xD
I'm at this point pretty much 100% sure that at LEAST one of cy/Lalendra and Kop/Finn is scum. I refuse to budge from my sentiments (unless sheep budges I guess).