Mini 1968: Bread uPick: The Baker's Dozen: Endgame

[Gorkington]

also want to note that i made that post with a trackpad and running on 3 hours of sleep.
:')

[Fishythefish]

TL;DR:

Gork's response makes me feel less sure about Gork being scum - it makes some good points. However, I still think he's a very likely partner for Misa.

@Gork: I was sad when you asked to replace out halfway through my catchup, and I'm glad you didn't. I'm looking forward to seeing more from you - and either way I hope you get better health-wise.

Gork/dreal argument

Gork's play around drealmer's early wagon is bad. Here, i) Gork townreads both of the wagon,

i dont really see the magnitude of any wagons, so no idea who youre referring to other than creature here. for creature, yes, having played with him, its literally trivial to parse his towngame from his scumgame. can ask other people in the game for confirmation on this.

I was referring to wheme and fen here; they were the two people voting dreal at this point, and you townread them both with no explanation.

and says dreal's play is "weird" without quite saying it's scummy. Gork then asks drealmer to be less combative. It really feels like Gork wants to push the wagon, without getting into conflict with drealmer - who was playing aggressively at that point in the game.

i) drealm has admitted hes playing weird this game.
ii) drealm engaged me about OOG stuff, i responded, he responded [being a dick] and i asked him to stop. literally none of this has anything to do with me pushing him or scumreading him. kind of a lazy assessment of that interaction. there was no "wagon" to push while avoiding it. why would i even care about that at the start of d1 anyways when a lynch is probably not happening that early?

The bit about pushing him and avoiding the wagon was this from post 52: "i feel weird about drealm, but i remember feeling weird about him earlygame during his last towngame so.". There were two votes on drealm at that point - the two people you had unexplained townreads on in that same post. I think you'd care about avoiding being on it to avoid conflict, rather than directly because you'd look bad on a lynch.

You asking dreal to stop being a dick - yeah, on second look I agree that there's nothing scummy there.

Gork/FB exchange

I disliked the exchange with Firebringer which starts here. Gork is using his history with FB to push the latter out of a scumread, while simultaneously doing some buddying with FB. This really feels like something scum would be more likely to do; it's pretty manipulative.

i) i buddy people as town pretty often, especially people i like and especially especially people i like that i think are town.
ii) i wont lie that i was manipulative, but it was kneejerk and probably something i actually wouldnt do as scum because i would feel bad about it. i dont think about things before i do them as town. as scum im a nervous mess overthinking my every post. im not going to immediately go the bullying route if im being scumread by someone i consider my friend and firebringer and i have a lot of context outside of the game. pretty sure firebringer's townread on me is based to some degree on that? but i could be wrong.

This is interesting self meta, and makes me feel quite a lot better about your interaction with FB.

@FB:

do you agree with Gork's analysis of his meta here?

Gork/Misa link

Gork fits really well as a partner for Misa. This goes in both directions, but for the bits which are Misa-driven, I just don't see her being a crafty enough scumbag to plant this link on purpose. Repeatedly, Misa is concerned about scumreads on Gork, in a way that she isn't for anything else in the game.

i was going to rebutt against this, but rereading back, misa does this literally once that i can see. so. not really sure why youre exaggerating unless you just want the case to sound better?

Misa concerned herself for no particular reason about:
- dreal questioning your Creature read aggressively on page 2
- dreal arguing with you about meta on page 3
- You arguing with Firebringer
She seemed to care much, much more about arguments involving you than about anything else in the game.

Misa explains a post of Gork's for no obvious reason.

I assume that Gork said that due to meta-reasons. "He doesn't post like that as scum."

or trying to find something thats easy to jump into the game on.

Sure. As an isolated thing, this would be nothing at all.

She tries to defuse a conflict involving Gork.

no idea what this is referring to

I was talking about (and linked to) this post, which is wading in on an argument between you and dreal to call it NAI:

I feel like this "experience vs 'generating reads in this game'" is a matter of playstyle and NAI, especially this early in the game.

She comments on Gork's argument with FB, initially not picking a side and then voting FB when pressed - with no reason for preferring FB over Gork.

having a reason to have a vote on someone to seem like she isnt doing nothing? its not possible to you that misa took some noisy tVt shit and used it to try to generate some content as scum, rather than immediately jumping to "SCUM IS PROTECTING THEIR KIN!"?
i feel that stuff doesnt happen as often with players like misa? honestly i would probably raise my eyebrow in a kneejerk way too with misa flip in hand, but if you think about this, should probably not be that cut and dry.

This is another one that isn't a big deal on it's own. But I think these add up to a pattern of Misa caring much more about you than anyone else in the game.

Gork then asks about this - but not for long, and doesn't really do anything about it.

does it seem like i really did much about anything in this game questionwise? ive been pretty fucked healthwise the last week and a half and burnt out to some degree mafia-wise. literally was not feeling confident about a scumread on anyone, which was pretty much a universal experience in this game. i would be surprised if there werent ten other questions that i threw at other people at some point during this game hoping to get a feel for them, which i didnt get something with, so i moved on. do it a lot as town. possibly less this game because its been a slog and wasnt at 100%.

This is fair; this was confirmation bias on my part. There's no link to Misa here (the overall lack of following up is possibly a mild scumtell, but also well explained by health/burnout)

He later says here that Misa is "even harder to sort than Fykus". This feels really off; Misa had quite a lot that could be read, and it felt like Gork was prodding at it earlier.

I wouldn't expect Gork to be putting her in an unreadable pile at this point.

why not for the bolded? she wasnt answering any of my questions with any degree of actual substance or insight into her thought process. i generally get reads based on understanding how people think. i had no idea how misa's thought process worked at all.

The bolded is because you had had some interaction with Misa - particularly post 240, where you asked her two pretty pointed questions. Fykus, on the other hand, looked like a pure lurker lynch to you.

i get the misa/me connection because its flashy and she made some awkward posts that have my name in them and i appreciate the big catch-up post so quick after replacing in, but you missed a lot context and not putting quotes in your case made it impossible to follow what you were saying at points.

I try to avoid quote walls (yeah, I know I'm currently in one). I find an argument with links to relevant posts easier to follow without eyes glazing over (and the biggest confusion looks like you didn't follow one of the links?). That's a matter of opinion, of course.

[drealmerz7]

This town really does need to pull itself together. The two main things here are:
1) Gork is scum.
2) Wheme is probably fakeclaiming cop, and needs to fullclaim, retract his claim, or die.
Can we please focus on those things?

I like you so much!

I pretty much think lynching wheme is a WINWINWIN pro-town move that should be done sooner rather than later in ALL games, regardless of his alignment

a vig should shoot there, or we should lynch there today, get him out of the way before much more of the game goes on, he's just scum or extremely damaging anti-town, imo

[drealmerz7]

Stop poking at my scumbud Fishy

ftfy

[Chickadee]

Stop it Dreal. We're not killing Wheme.

[Dunkerdoodles]

Stop it Dreal. We're not killing Wheme.

[Dunkerdoodles]

i mean i'm town so wheme's not wrong

he could be fakeclaiming but there's bigger things to worry about

[Chickadee]

Since you suggested it, what did you have in mind Dunk?

[drealmerz7]

dee, you don't get to speak for everyone

okay if you don't want to kill wheme, why not?

[Dunkerdoodles]

Since you suggested it, what did you have in mind Dunk?

i don't understand

if you mean my reads
i still think wormhole is scum but no one believes me

fish and gork both make good points on each other, honestly it

feels

tvt but i couldn't tell

i think dreal could still be scum

idk anything else really

[Fishythefish]

@Chick, dunkers: does it worry you that Wheme is claiming he got an inno on dunkers and then immediately voted him and demanded a claim?

[Firebringer]

this Game is aggravating me.

I wish all my townread were scum so I could vote them with clean conscious

[Chickadee]

@Chick, dunkers: does it worry you that Wheme is claiming he got an inno on dunkers and then immediately voted him and demanded a claim?

Yes and no.

It bothers me, but not enough to kill him off for it.

[Fishythefish]

There's a cool middle ground where we demand a better claim, and only kill him off if he won't claim or his claim doesn't make sense.

[Wormhole]

This town really does need to pull itself together. The two main things here are:
1) Gork is scum.
2) Wheme is probably fakeclaiming cop, and needs to fullclaim, retract his claim, or die.
Can we please focus on those things?

I think that there's a fairly decent chance he's fakeclaiming cop to back his Dunk townread tbh. Idk, I've never played with him before, but this doesn't seem that scummy *for him*.

IE I don't especially believe the cop claim, but I don't think he's necessarily scummy for claiming it. I don't exactly know how to explain this better tbh.

What do you think about Dunk?

Stop Fishy

I don't remember you doing like anything this dayphase.

ive been pretty fucked healthwise the last week and a half

Feel better!!!!!

--s

[drealmerz7]

his claim already doesn't make sense, to have even begun to make it, hinted at it, or anything

[Fishythefish]

I think that there's a fairly decent chance he's fakeclaiming cop to back his Dunk townread tbh. Idk, I've never played with him before, but this doesn't seem that scummy *for him*.

IE I don't especially believe the cop claim, but I don't think he's necessarily scummy for claiming it. I don't exactly know how to explain this better tbh.

What do you think about Dunk?

I agree - "fakeclaiming cop as town" is definitely near the top of my theories here. However, I'd feel pretty stupid lynching dunkers if there's a real cop inno on him. I guess we could just ignore the claim unless/until Wheme makes it convincing

Nothing has changed since my catchup on Dunk - he's weakly scum to me. His posting is mostly stuff I can't read because it doesn't make much sense to me; he clearly doesn't think about this game in the same way I do. The one bit of the case that makes sense is that he *may* have given away that he knew Fykus was town.

Could you summarise why you think Dunk is scum?

[Dunkerdoodles]

i'm also somewhat-confirmed role wise so

on the fykus thing, i probably worded it badly, so that's my fault. i ment to say if he does flip town i would be lynched most likely cause i hammered him. if he flips scum i obviously wouldn't be in as much trouble, i thought that was obvious when i posted it so i just said what would happen if he flipped town

[Wormhole]

I agree - "fakeclaiming cop as town" is definitely near the top of my theories here. However,

I'd feel pretty stupid lynching dunkers if there's a real cop inno on him

. I guess we could just ignore the claim unless/until Wheme makes it convincing

Nothing has changed since my catchup on Dunk - he's weakly scum to me. His posting is mostly stuff I can't read because it doesn't make much sense to me; he clearly doesn't think about this game in the same way I do.

The one bit of the case that makes sense is that he *may* have given away that he knew Fykus was town

.

Could you summarise why you think Dunk is scum?

Idk, I just don't think fake-claiming is that scummy for *wheme* in particular. And you haven't expressed a super big interest in lynching dunker right now, so the italics is kinda a weird phrasing for me.

The one bit that sticks out for me is 548. This was clearly written with an assumption that Fykus was town. That is quite likely because dunker knows that for sure.

What changed between the above and the bolded?

Case on Dunk (and his predecessor) is discussed in: 150, 252, 533, 545, 593, 694

tldr: Fen had a bizarre progression on Creature and then disappeared when he was under pressure. Dunk wanted to hammer anyone within hammering range, regardless of his read on them, and I think that 548 is actually kinda damning.

--s

[Wormhole]

i'm also somewhat-confirmed role wise so

on the fykus thing, i probably worded it badly, so that's my fault. i ment to say if he does flip town i would be lynched most likely cause i hammered him. if he flips scum i obviously wouldn't be in as much trouble, i thought that was obvious when i posted it so i just said what would happen if he flipped town

Right, but role != alignment, so that's kinda irrelevant. I'm also pointing out that we're confirmed to you to have not done anything last night, so you know we couldn't have done anything nefarious last night anyways.

And the way you worded it kinda sounds like you knew you would be in trouble if you quickhammered *because* you knew you would flip town.

--s

[Dunkerdoodles]

do you think scum me blatantly says that?
you probably haven't seen my scum game but i suck at it, i'm way less vocal and very passive, i don't make posts like 548

[Dunkerdoodles]

not going to lie i was also trying to soft some sort of powerful pr to bait a nightkill but apparently that didn't work so

[skitter30]

idk, I haven't played with scum!you. BV thinks you match your scum!meta though from a game he played with you.

p-edit: yeah I thought the soft was kinda bizarre but your slot wasn't getting night-killed regardless, even if you softed that, given that chick outright claimed modified loud-friendly neighbor

[Wormhole]

idk, I haven't played with scum!you. BV thinks you match your scum!meta though from a game he played with you.

p-edit: yeah I thought the soft was kinda bizarre but your slot wasn't getting night-killed regardless, even if you softed that, given that chick outright claimed modified loud-friendly neighbor

sigh

[Dunkerdoodles]

mm that was alchemist's mini

keep in mind that was a while ago and also it was my first scum game i'm pretty sure and my partners were hard bussing each other so i had no idea what to do