Night Clan - [Game Over]

[Vaxkiller]

There has to be a means of coordination or the masons just die and town learns nothing

^ x a billion

But that coordination could cost us everything.

[Hinduragi]

Claims of "I'm a mason" are a terrible conundrum. We don't want a second mason to claim to confirm it should it be legit; but otoh as scum, a counterclaim still kills one of our three.

By masons, do you mean daughters? What would entitle a claim from one of them?

Let's say you run me up. Why WOULDN'T I claim daughter if I'm scum? And now we either lynch me anyways on what amounts to a voinflip of killing one of our own three high protective assets; ask for confirmation (thereby exposing another mason if I'm town); or let me go without any. All three of those scenarios suck, but we should figure out in advance which of those three is ideal.

I think it's best for a mason to claim if you're scum. Otherwise stay silent. That should be a rule we instate.

I agree with this strategy however I would like to add a point then move on from setup talks. If

any

hiders decide to do this, please, PLEASE allow a 24 hour period to occur prior to counter claiming scum. This will allow for any information from any power roles to come forth before you out yourself.

[Kagami]

This is the reason for the discussion above about calling audibles.

What you're describing is functionally equivalent to hypo-hiding, and has exactly the same downside that anyone whose "top townread" is scum becomes known non-mason to the scumteam.

[Kagami]

There has to be a means of coordination or the masons just die and town learns nothing

^ x a billion

But that coordination could cost us everything.

This is fluffy fear-mongering.

If there's a rigged coin that lands in my favor 65% of the time, I'll bet the game on it happily even if there's a 35% chance that it costs me everything.

[Kotoko Utsugi]

Hm.

I see your point.

I'll think on it but it still rubs me the wrong way.

[Vaxkiller]

There has to be a means of coordination or the masons just die and town learns nothing

^ x a billion

But that coordination could cost us everything.

This is fluffy fear-mongering.

If there's a rigged coin that lands in my favor 65% of the time, I'll bet the game on it happily even if there's a 35% chance that it costs me everything.

Now your just making up percentages as if they have ANYTHING to do with the actual chances of the ideas we proposed.

[ActionDan]

What if they hit scum? Even with 1 scum don't they all have to out- at least 1 person will have to out in combination with the other person already outed and from there scum could reverse engineer the third person by putting in the three known values.

They'll have to be subtle, that's all.

That's the name of the game no matter how this works out, and is vastly preferable to "we have no idea who the dead mason hid behind."

Breadcrumbing remains a possible strategy if someone feels they're visiting a possible-scummo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but like Kotoko (I think), I'm interpreting that your idea only makes it obvious to the daughters themselves who they targeted and who they should target but not to the rest of the thread unless the thread has knowledge of who the daughters are. You need all 3 to fill in the daughters' arguments. So the daughters would know who is scum (or if a daughter died hiding behind town that got shot) but no one else. To me that seems inferior to basically more or less any other method.

in any setup that revolves around a town minority that should be protected, its only natural that people will try to manipulate the setup to protect them. Starting that convo should not be townread, and especially not the one he came up with, with all of its flaws.

When you say "all of it's flaws," are you referring only to the one I explicitly mentioned? Furthermore, do you have a plan of your own or do you think any you've seen talked about are better significantly than the one I originally proposed?

[Hinduragi]

Claims of "I'm a mason" are a terrible conundrum. We don't want a second mason to claim to confirm it should it be legit; but otoh as scum, a counterclaim still kills one of our three.

By masons, do you mean daughters? What would entitle a claim from one of them?

Let's say you run me up. Why WOULDN'T I claim daughter if I'm scum? And now we either lynch me anyways on what amounts to a voinflip of killing one of our own three high protective assets; ask for confirmation (thereby exposing another mason if I'm town); or let me go without any. All three of those scenarios suck, but we should figure out in advance which of those three is ideal.

I think it's best for a mason to claim if you're scum. Otherwise stay silent. That should be a rule we instate.

I agree with this strategy however I would like to add a point then move on from setup talks. If

any

hiders decide to do this, please, PLEASE allow a 24 hour period to occur prior to counter claiming scum. This will allow for any information from any power roles to come forth before you out yourself.

Again, this times a million. And I'd like to move on. Would like to hear from more than just the same 4-5 posting. If everyone can agree to waiting 24 hours prior to counterclaim and everyone agrees to the python-thing, I'd like to hear so. This is an ok strategy and, for now, I think it will work fine. I want to move on to the actual scumhunting. There's nothing inherently wrong with the plan as far as setup goes. Don't forget we have to do more than that, the majority of which includes still lynching scum.

[Cabd]

AGREE WITH PYTON

VOTE: LLD

[Kagami]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but like Kotoko (I think), I'm interpreting that your idea only makes it obvious to the daughters themselves who they targeted and who they should target but not to the rest of the thread unless the thread has knowledge of who the daughters are. You need all 3 to fill in the daughters' arguments. So the daughters would know who is scum (or if a daughter died hiding behind town that got shot) but no one else. To me that seems inferior to basically more or less any other method.

At the minimum, that's the point, yes.

Masons can do some clever crumbing if they want publicly available trails of who they visit, but I don't think that's anywhere near as important as ensuring the masons can coordinate secretly and efficiently.

Any method that doesn't use a system that is only unlockable with the knowledge of all three masons is going to give a huge amount of info to scum. Your original suggestion, for example, removes three players from the mason-pool for them immediately on Day 2.

[Maki Harukawa]

If 1 daughter claims it'll be obv who is and who isn't a daughter due to who they let wagon and who they don't let wagon.
Just play the game out imo maybe say who you're hiding behind if you're a daughter we look back and check or play this game out normally if we keep doing this we'll overthink
Daughters know who they are correct?

Spoiler:

[Kagami]

Idk, I like winning. I like plans that lead to winning.

This setup seems pretty scumsided to me in the absence of good coordination, so I'm reluctant to let things just "play out."

I think there's a very high chance we end up with a dead mason and no clear idea whether he visited scum or if he was hiding behing the NK. I think there's a very high chance two masons hide behind the same player at some point.

I think there's a very low chance without coordination that Day 3 rolls along and a mason says "hey guys, I'm a mason and here is a list of 8 or 9 players among 13 who are innocent and X is known scum. GG"

[Maki Harukawa]

If we make a plan I think it should be one where daughters don't have to out
I like playing this set up like coper13 where people basically say
"if I'm a daughter I'm hiding behind _____"

[Kagami]

I think then it becomes very powerful to shoot people who have a lot of people hypo-hiding behind them.

[Maki Harukawa]

That's why you spread out your answers!

[Vaxkiller]

I get that, but we cant remove the daughters ability to choose.

What if daughters choose within 3 people above and below them to hide behind? MAYBE 2 above and below. It gives us an idea of where they were at least.


Also, we will have a VERY CLEAR IDEA whether they visited scum or hid behind the NK... hiding behind the NK results and 2 dead.

[Maki Harukawa]

like the daughters should be smart enough to do it themselves if they want at least that way I know who to blame if we lose (B

[ActionDan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but like Kotoko (I think), I'm interpreting that your idea only makes it obvious to the daughters themselves who they targeted and who they should target but not to the rest of the thread unless the thread has knowledge of who the daughters are. You need all 3 to fill in the daughters' arguments. So the daughters would know who is scum (or if a daughter died hiding behind town that got shot) but no one else. To me that seems inferior to basically more or less any other method.

At the minimum, that's the point, yes.

Masons can do some clever crumbing if they want publicly available trails of who they visit, but I don't think that's anywhere near as important as ensuring the masons can coordinate secretly and efficiently.

Any method that doesn't use a system that is only unlockable with the knowledge of all three masons is going to give a huge amount of info to scum. Your original suggestion, for example, removes three players from the mason-pool for them immediately on Day 2.

After thinking about this some more, it's not nearly as bad as I thought. It's simply very different. I'm ok to try this; if nothing else I'm excited to see Python Code play a major role in a game.

[Vaxkiller]

If we make a plan I think it should be one where daughters don't have to out
I like playing this set up like coper13 where people basically say
"if I'm a daughter I'm hiding behind _____"

I think then it becomes very powerful to shoot people who have a lot of people hypo-hiding behind them.

Or for scum to daughter hunt and NK the person they think they are hiding behind.

[Vaxkiller]

Nos?

Thoughts>?

[Kagami]

After thinking about this some more, it's not nearly as bad as I thought. It's simply very different. I'm ok to try this; if nothing else I'm excited to see Python Code play a major role in a game.

Except for the embarrassing part where I realized I could have written that whole thing in like, 10 lines of code.

[Kagami]

And do it better.

I was originally going for a long enough computation to make it inconvenient to brute force, but scaled it down to make it easy. O well.

[Vaxkiller]

Your code. ELI5.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Hmm...
The issue is that scum knowing the dauthers is less of a problem than knowing who they'll hide behind, Kagami's method makes it easy to know if they hid behind scum or not, but also makes it easy for scum to coinflip predict who they'll hide behind so long as they know their identity, say im scum and my kill fails what am i supposed to think?, everything has it's pros and cons.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

That being said, i cant think of a better plan either so... I guess Kagami's plan it is.