Mini 1968: Bread uPick: The Baker's Dozen: Endgame

[Wormhole]

Last final is later today; I'll be around after or tomorrow, depending on how much sleep I get after.

@mod:

I'm always v/la on Fridays and Saturdays.

--skitter

[Wormhole]

(I tend to wall, apologies in advance)

VOTE: gorkington
Use RNG.

Was this a serious vote? Have you played offsite?

VOTE: Dreal

Serious vote this is scum

Why?

I'm saying that creature is probably town because of the claim. That is why it's nice.

OK, and what about the claim makes him town? And why did you vote Dreal right after this post?

------

I feel like both sides of this Creature thing (Gork pushing town!Creature and Dreal pushing scum!creature) appear to, in some way, be influenced by meta. I don't have any meta on Creature, and right now his posting in this game has been kinda NAI for me; he's hard null right now.

-------

@ETL: Hi!!!! Nice to play with you again

@Misa: Thanks! I think it went well, and now I'm on break for like three weeks!

--s

[Wormhole]

It's a ballsy move that I don't see much scum doing D1, although I'm not ruling out the possibility. Yes, creature's posting itself is null, but for now, creature is a slight townread due tp the claim and what I jist said.

I mean, scum fake claiming miller is a thing that happens day 1. He never got lynched.

And here's another day1 scum!miller claim that didn't get lynched for several days

I could prob rustle up some more examples, but those are the two instances I knew about off the top of my head.

So scum fake-claiming miller day 1 is def a thing that happens.

I do believe that it's town-motivated to claim miller early, as miller claims on later days are kinda dangerous, but I wouldn't give someone a townlean solely because of a miller claim on page 1.

It looks nice, and while both scum and town can miller claim, I'm more inclined for the claim to come from town more than scum imo.

And since we agree that both scum and town can claim miller, I'm not really seeing why you think Creature's claim here is more likely to come from town.
--s

[Wormhole]

@Fenraiser, why did you vote Drealmerz?

@Gorkington, I played with Creature about four times now. We were both town all four times and each time, it was increasingly easy to solidly read him as town. I haven't seen anything yet that makes him scream town. I've never seen him as scum though. The two wallposts Creature made so far seemed very unlike his normal posting and I also didn't have the same reactions to the posts he quoted. The miller claim is null to me as it's easily something I can see being planned in the mafia thread. Can you say more on why you are townreading him?

-BlackVoid

[Wormhole]

Not unvoting Dreal today

I don't understand your conviction for this vote. Can you elaborate?

Spoiler:

Random number generator. Creature miller claim does look nice tbh.

what, why?

no it doesn't especially after asked for flavor and he didn't

fuck that shit it's scummy as fuck especially from creature VOTE: creature

I'm voting Drealz for this.

UNVOTE:

And .... why the unvote?

OK, and what about the claim makes him town? And why did you vote Dreal right after this post?

I have this tendency of townreading like every miller claim, maybe so does he.

That's a fair approach, although I do not approach miller claims that way. My problem with him taking that approach here is the following quote. In the bolded, he says that scum *or* town can claim miller in general, so I don't understand why he's reading the claim as AI in this particular instance.

looks nice, and

while both scum and town can miller claim

, I'm more inclined for the claim to come from town more than scum imo. It seems to me that from what I've read about miller roles, they either make someone confirmed town (mish mash games at least) or they are lynched D1.

I still think it's a ballsy move, so I don't think scum will claim it, but that depends on what kind of player creature is.

Like I don't understand why he thinks it's ballsy if he introduced the topic as saying that it's something that town or scum can do.

Why did you not give flavor? Paraphrasing is okay fyi it's in the op.

I was going to post the exact flavor though.

Just ask the mod if it's a thing you can do if you want to do that.

--s

[Wormhole]

@Fenraiser, why does Drealmerz pushing Creature make him suspicious just because you think Creature is town? Was there anything about the way he pushed Creature that you didn't like and why aren't you accounting for the likelihood that he just has a different opinion than you? What made you change your mind on Drealmerz and unvote?

-BV

[Wormhole]

I never said the bolded. Your parner (s) seemed to misread my earlier words regarding creature and the miller claim.

(There's two of us btw. Me and BV).

Fair enough. I read that as you saying that you thought miller claims were null, so I didn't get how you went from 'early miller claims are null' to 'creature claimed miller early, so he is a townlean'.

Regarding Dreal, it's not that I don't realize he can have a different opinion, it's that I want to understand his opinion about Creature better, and that is why I've been asking him questions about Creature to clarify things. Initially, I thought he jumped the gun on Creature, but I looked back at his posts and saw that he voted Creature after Creature didn't say flavor after the claim and he implied that Creature strayed from their town meta. So, I kind of see the progression and I unvoted, although I wanted to see more elaboration on the Creature meta.

I guess I can kinda follow this, but not really? The context of your unvote is kinda bothering me, given that you make a post reaffirming your reason for voting Dreal (79), and make it seem there like you want more info about Creature's meta before you can determine if Dreal's suspicion is warranted, and then unvote before you hear from Dreal. The unvote really stood out as being really out of place given the context, especially since you didn't yet get that elaboration of Creature's meta and Dreal didn't post in that time.

It does not ring well. I can understand if Creature was straight up scumread by Wormhole, but I don't think a null read can give this type of response because it betrays too much concern of how people sees himself/herself, albeit very slight. There seems to be a bit of self-preservation thrown in there as well in the bolded lines.

I don't get this. I don't think it betrays too much concern of how people see him, so much as showing that he's very self-aware of how he'd react as scum in that situation and why he wouldn't do that as scum. I don't really see self-preservation or worry about he's being perceived. This seems kinda reachy to me.

And you went from voting Dreal for having a scumread on Creature you didn't understand, to unvoting Dreal before you heard from him, to voting Creature with Dreal.

I dunno. The progression is weird and doesn't make much sense to me.

VOTE: Fenraiser

the problem is

I was voting Wormhole, not dreal.

I ain't voting anyone that I don't think we'll get information out of.

What does the bolded mean?

Where was I scumread by Wormhole btw?

You weren't. I'm nulltown on you. BV's concerned that you don't match the towngames he'd seen with you, but he's tending to thinking that you're town here. Neither of were scumreading you at any point.

VOTE: especiallythelies. This dude has 3 posts and voted someone for adding a question mark to their post. I think that's scummy as hell.

I think she's v/la on weekends. Although the question mark post was a tad odd, I agree.

Spoiler:

What would you call it from your POV?

Probably a reminder.

It can't be self-preservation because there was no threat of me being lynched.

Alright. You do make a fair point in terms of self-preservation.

Prodge

I'm down to PLing this one if this behavior continues.

VOTE: ETL

It was never self-preservation in the first place, so I don't really get why you framed that post that way. Still hate your Creature vote; like I said above, I think that post is really reachy. And you ceding that point here is kinda weird after you made a big thing about voting Creature here for it.

Unfortunately Fykus prodges a lot and isn't super-high content. It also isn't AI for him.

I don't especially like how fast this ETL wagon built tbh.

--s

[Wormhole]

the problem is

I was voting Wormhole, not dreal.

I ain't voting anyone that I don't think we'll get information out of.

What does the bolded mean?

Also I think we can give ETL a couple of days (irl days, not gamedays) for finals.

-s

[Wormhole]

the problem is

I was voting Wormhole, not dreal.

I ain't voting anyone that I don't think we'll get information out of.

What does the bolded mean?

-s

didnt see that, sorry

what I meant was... exactly what I said on the tin. By the time of the unvote, aside from activity-related posts, you've only made "scum can also claim miller" not-really-AI posts, something that you can't really analyze using what you flip.

I feel like it's a bit of a misrepresentation to characterize us as someone you 'don't think [you'll] get information out of'. Your unvote came not even two days into the game, and I said I'd be v/la for finals until just about when you unvoted. Like, if you're worried about getting content from us . . . why didn't you try to talk to us about like anything, instead of two IRL days into the game brushing us off as a slot unlikely to be providing content?

Also our posts weren't really focusing on the 'scum can also claim miller' thing, so much as trying to understand Fen and Creature's approaches to the miller thing.

And you were the only vote on us thus far, so it's not like we were close to getting lynched, so I'm not sure why you unvoted us because you felt we'd be a bad info-lynch given that we weren't about to be lynched anyways.

--s

[Wormhole]

Hi Firebringer!

@wheme, cityelectric, ETL: I hope your finals are going/went well!

totally down for a mcmenno lynch he seems scum

Why mcmenno?

FYI, I may refrain from wagoning someone with finals rn but I won't give a free pass for this day.

I don't think they should be given a free pass, but if they say something like 'v/la till Tuesday because of finals' or 'v/la weekends', I don't really see the point of pressuring them while they're gone if they're going to come back soonish and aren't lurking away a whole day phase.

Like I'm not sure why a wagon built on ETL for being 'lurking scum', but no one is really pressuring CityElectric for also not being around because of finals.

Nothing else has really happened since I last posted so I don't have much else to say right now. Would like to hear a response from Fen and/or Misa though.

p-edit: why Gorkington?

--s

[Wormhole]

ETL is a good lynch
She is lurker scum

Has her replaceout changed your opinion on her?

competing lame lurker wagons go:
VOTE: fykus

To be quite honest, I don't really understand the point of pressuring people who aren't here anyways.

He lurks a lot. It isn't AI. I've never seen him react to activity-based pressure.

People decided to join games when they are busy.

Tbf .... people may not have been busy when they signed up a month ago.

Fire VS Gorkington is weird af. Good thing to look into later.

@Wormhole

If you want a response with your vote on me, I just see weird progression being the main reason for it, although I don't think weird progression marks scum by itself, so I kind of skimmed over it.

I also think we should have a CFD target in place soon.

Also, what do you think of Whemestar's response?

I mean, it was a weird progression, and you agreed that it was a weird progression. I don't really understand why you made that progression on someone you were townreading, or why you backed off of it when the person you're voting calls it weird and then decide to immediately sheep them on another wagon altogether; doing so makes it seem like it isn't something you had conviction about in the first place. Basically I don't get it.

What's your current Creature read?

And what whemestar response are you referring to?

And what does CFD mean?

fire vs gork sounds a little too casual imo. but nothing to address immediately.

Given that very little is going on in the thread right now, what would be something that you think necessitates immediate addressing?

And, like, why not address it now?

bc i didnt feel like voting at the time

VOTE: Firebringer

ok there we go

OK, if your initial comment is that 'fire vs gork sounds a little too casual', why are you voting Fire now (ie out of the two of them, why are you voting Fire and not Gork)?

--s

[Wormhole]

@Misatange, to add onto 252, I have quite a bit of trouble following anything you are saying so it would be great if you could elaborate on some of your positions. Firstly, when you unvoted us, you said it's because you wouldn't be able to draw any conclusions from our flip because we didn't do anything alignment indicative. That's a weird concern to have at the beginning of the day. We're not anywhere close to being flipped. Also, why are you basing your vote on how much information you can get from a flip as opposed to how likely someone is to be scum? Secondly, what do you mean by Fire vs Gork being a "little too casual?" Are you suspicious that they are both scum distancing? Explain more on what you mean by "your casual tone feels forced." Finally, do you have any reads at all and if so, can you post them and the reasoning for those reads?

-BV

[Wormhole]

Rethinking Fen in my town list.

Yeah I was just about to ask you about that. Why did you have Fen as town?

--s

[Wormhole]

Has her replaceout changed your opinion on her?

No

OK, and what's your opinion on the other 8 million people who were lurking? Are they lurker scum too?

[Wormhole]

Rethinking Fen in my town list.

Yeah I was just about to ask you about that. Why did you have Fen as town?

--s

And why Wheme and maybe Mcmenno?

[Wormhole]

Ye. I really dislike Fen's creature vote, like I said on the the previous page. And I dunno. He asked a lot of questions in RVS that looked kinda busy, and BV liked him for having a high post-count and trying to encourage activity, but that kinda dropped over the past few days.

[Wormhole]

Rethinking Fen in my town list.

Yeah I was just about to ask you about that. Why did you have Fen as town?

--s

And why Wheme and maybe Mcmenno?

There are things I like from both of them. McMenno is more town-is for me than solid town.

McMenno is like nullscum for me and I have no clue how to read wheme.

[Wormhole]

Wait I thought you didn't want to lynch ETL today. Now you think the slot might be scum?

[Wormhole]

Yeah i don't think you got hammered. I didn't catch that you got put at L-2 though. Actually I'm not sure he did since Creature left the wagon too.

[Wormhole]

Has her replaceout changed your opinion on her?

No

OK, and what's your opinion on the other 8 million people who were lurking? Are they lurker scum too?

The fuck are u talking about.

ETL being scum and replacing out doesn’t mean the slot is town or anything like a replace out means nothing unless it’s a force replace in which case it’s Town

Yeah, I don't think the replacement out is AI. I don't understand why you think she's scum.

[Wormhole]

I. I want to push Fen or Miss, but neither of them have been super active either recently.

Ii/iii. Don't disagree. He does this all the time though, so I don't think this behavior is remotely AI for him. But I've seen him get pushed and mislynched multiple times in LYLO for doing this, so I consider him to be a sort of LYLO liability. That's why I'm not putting up such a fuss right now.

[Wormhole]

I. I want to push Fen or Miss, but neither of them have been super active either recently.

you can still push them you know

I'm voting Fen and Misa hasn't responded to the questions we had for her so ...

VOTE: fenraiser

This needs more pressure. He was super active earlier in the day.

+1

Fen is not a good lynch

Why?

Well first of all ur post to lynch him is based on his activity level/

Secondly while he has bad posts it doesn’t seem scummy.

Third of all ur bad

It's more like he was one of the most active players in the beginning, but his activity dropped just around when he was getting pressured and he hasn't posted at all in two days without even an 'I'm v/la for finals' or 'prodge' like everyone else was doing.

--s

[Wormhole]

@Fen:

Can you explain why Creature is null now? You've gone from townreading him to voting him to nullreading him. (Like I said, I'm kinda having trouble following your progression on him)

And for the whemestar response, I honestly have no clue how to read players like Wheme, so I don't know what to make of it.

IIRC, BV said he has meta on him, so for now I'm planning on letting BV figure it out, but he's going to be busy until probably Friday.

--s

[Wormhole]

VOTE: fenraiser

good vote

I am so cold

cold as in scum???

are we being mocked

What do you think about the ETL/chickadee slot in general?

I'm a completely different person, with different opinions that ETL, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to gain by asking this. I have no clue what their thought process was. I just have the coincidence of occupying the same slot.

This question just looks like busy work.

It's also weird question because I can't tell if he's asking you to defend ETL's comment, the fact that she didn't answer the question, or if he just wants your opinion on it; if he just wants your opinion, not sure why he didn't direct the question at everyone in general so that we can all talk about it.

--s

[Wormhole]

I could vote Misa.

@Fykus: can you explain the reads on me, Fen, and Smocaine?

[Wormhole]

I started a Fen vanity wagon because I mostly* don't really like any of the other wagons atm; that wagon has since progressed to a two-vote wagon.

Starting another vanity wagon on you accomplishes what exactly? I'd switch if it became more of a thing than the Fen wagon, and that was my way of gauging interest.

*I may shortly become interested in the Fykus wagon; depends on how he answers my most recent post

[Wormhole]

I'm bussing my whole team wheeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah that's part of my problem with that post. That readlist reads incredibly fabricated to me. I'm having trouble believing that townread on me is genuine.

[Wormhole]

I'm having trouble believing that townread on me is genuine.

why?

I've played with Fykus several times since I've joined the site.

(Aside, I think 422 is fairly accurate; that coupled with the fact that he often prodges makes him lynchbait when he's town. I still think the activity was NAI).

He was in my first game here (Newbie 1787). I was scum and he was town, and he townread me through pretty much the whole game. He thinks I have a pretty good scumgame, and is kinda paranoid of me.

Look at how he approached me in the next three games we played (I was scum and he was town in all):

Spoiler: Micro 724

Subject: Micro 724: Scumhunter's Speed: 9 Players (Game Over)

The reason i say for you to lynch me is because i feel way out of my depth this game. Its also the reason i sheeped rc alot on day 1. A familiar face who i know is good at the game. Which is also the reason i feel so paranoid about who to vote for. I can never tell what alignment rc is and i saw what you (skitter) is capable of in our game.

Spoiler: Mini 1940

First time he mentioned me in this game.

Subject: Mini Normal 1940: The Apartment [Endgame]

-Skitter is impossible to read like she is in every game (shes scum everytime i play with her though) so who knows.

Spoiler: Mini 1946

First time he mentioned me in this game:

Skitter is scum: confirmed. Every game with me shes scum lol

And in mini 1954, where we were both town:

Spoiler: Mini 1954

First post of the game:

Skitter might be scum becauae every single game we have together is her as scum.

I'm iffy on skitter, but maybe its just superstition

Well every game im ever in shes scum.
Plus shes doing that thing she does.
I guess its a gut read.

After the townbloc agreed that I had bled town for a day and a half: (although I suppose tbf he named most of the rest of the townbloc as my partners)

This push on IS is scummy as fuck.

Luv was clearly town and the only reason that wagon died is because trans claimed doc. Your pushing IS now because hes the strongest town player.

Calling it now: jingle, flubber, skitter

Flubber resolves tonight. If hes alive tomorrow hes scum. Lets do skitter today.

VOTE: skitter

So to just have my slot as town without interacting with me in any way whatsoever sets off major red flags. And I don't think I've done anything here particularly unfakeable.

(It's been pretty much me posting; BV posted like three times and signed all his posts).

And I wanted to check with BV to see what he thinks (he has off today so he'll probably post here at some point; he's been checking in om our hydra PT once a day or so), and he agrees with me rather wholeheartedly.

UNVOTE: Fen
VOTE: Fykus

[Wormhole]

They've only played together once many months ago and BV hasn't been posting in thread much at all, so basing a read on us because of his posts would be really weird, especially given my history with Fykus. BV doesn't think Fykus is especially able to read him.

I said in the hydra PT that I think Fykus the townread on us is bizarre and seems kinda faked, and BV said he was thinking the exact same thing as me, for the exact same reasons as I did.

[Wormhole]

Okay, I'll be here all day so I want to get as many real time interactions in as possible.

Regarding Fykus, I also wanted to add - the entire readslist feels fake. Uncritically accepting Creature as town because he claimed miller I think is a read scum are more likely to have because they already know the answer and don't need to question anything. I also found the Drealmerz and Chickadee reads opportunistic since they've both attracted a certain amount of pressure and have been in the spotlight and the reasoning for the Chickadee read is really weak. I don't see why her reaction is "over the top" and I think it's perfectly reasonable to be surprised to be put at L-1. It felt like Fykus just threw it out there to justify his vote.

@Smociane, why do you want to lynch Chickadee over Fykus?

-BlackVoid

[Wormhole]

So you think Chickadee and Fykus could be partnered? Why Dreal? I've read his entrance as town but his drop in activity later on bothered me.

-BV

[Wormhole]

I disagreed with ETL's suspicion of MisaTange for the question mark thing but I didn't find it necessarily scummy as it could have been a way to move the game forward and it's plausible that she thought MisaTange was overly concerned about how she looked which is a good thing to look for early game. I don't know if you're joking about the anime thing but I wouldn't mind hearing your serious reasons for the Chickadee scumread. I don't have much to go on on that slot but I thought Chickadee's softclaim of something "loud" and asking to be resolved tomorrow looked somewhat townie.

[Wormhole]

idk, have you taken BV into consideration?

I'm actually curious about this. I've barely posted in the game. How come you haven't called me out on it yet? Every other time we've played together, you've either voted me or drawn attention to the fact that I haven't posted much when I'm not at peak activity level.

[Wormhole]

You really shouldn't have claimed as I was hoping it would get resolved overnight. But now that you did, a couple of questions:

1. This post seemed like you were suggesting that Whemestar should know you were town. How would he know when you hadn't used your action yet?

Lol Wheme...go read your role pm

2. How does a loud friendly neighbor even work? On the wiki, it says that a loud modifier means the target knows who targeted them but not what action they were targeted with. Friendly neighbor basically informs the target that you are town. That seems like a redundant role. Why would a player need to know "Chickadee targeted them" and "Chickadee is town?"

-BV

[Wormhole]

Okay Chickadee, I think my interpretation of loud is different from what you are talking about. I didn't realize it would be announced in the game thread that you targeted someone. I'm cool leaving this be for now.

@Creature, that does seem like a weird reaction since everytime I've replaced in, you wanted content from me immediately or else you'd suspect/vote me. What changed here? Did you think skitter's posts were very townie? Regarding Dreal, what didn't you like about his push on you? I thought it would be weird for scum to choose to push you knowing that you'd be clearly town and unlynchable. It makes more sense if Dreal is town and actually thought you were scum this time around. Any reason you prefer Dreal over Fykus at this point?

[Wormhole]

@Creature, I replaced into a confirmed town slot in the last game we played together. But the game before that was this one:

Spoiler: Mini Normal 1921

Subject: Mini Normal 1921 - Town Win

VOTE: BlackVoid

Subject: Mini Normal 1921 - Town Win

Not ready to end the day, BlackVoid still has to post.

You made these posts when I replaced in and was trying to catch up.

The game before that, you did something similar:

Spoiler: Open 674

Subject: Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

BlackVoid replaces MooginSoosy.

Subject: Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

Expecting game to be solved right now.

Subject: Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

BlackVoid's already late.

Subject: Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

Of course there are going to be town in a six player scumpool. My question to Creature is why outoforder wasn't a townread for him because he's my strongest townread.

Reminder that if BlackVoid flips scum, we discard this post as WIFOM.

Subject: Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

Feeling like we should leave BlackVoid alone a little to game solve incase he's town.

You definitely expected me to solve the game and were quick to push me if I didn't make moves towards doing that but here you are sort of just letting me be despite barely posting.

[Wormhole]

is this blackvoid? if so how is it reasonable to expect creature to pursue you as a single head of a hydra where the other head has been active for not being active? I didn't really look at which head was posting what and I don't see creature as the kind of person to really pay attention to that either so what gives here?

The posts that I linked above gives an indication of Creature's previous interactions with me. Based on it, I'd definitely expect Creature to ask why I'm not posting. I don't think he'd played with skitter before either so it would make sense to try to read the player he's more familiar with.

[Wormhole]

Which wagon do you think would be productive?

Is that question to me? I obviously want to wagon Fykus since I think the likelihood of him being scum is a lot higher than Drealmerz. I'm not sure what you mean by productive but first off, we've already wagoned Drealmerz and seen the reactions of him and the players that voted him so I don't know what doing it again for information would accomplish. Secondly, we only have five days left and we're closing in on deadline so need to start deciding who to lynch. Drealmerz is a weak townlean and Fykus is a scumread so I think Fykus wagon would be more productive.

[Wormhole]

I'm fine leaving our slot's vote on him while we wait for him to come do stuff. But I'm happy to discuss other reads. Why are you townreading McMenno and Smocaine?

[Wormhole]

Read on worm: for about the last 6 months every game with skitter I was in I'd go straight to assuming that skitter was scum. Obviously this was a dumb thing to do considering the actual "chance" of her rolling scum. So i've stopped doing that, plus the way the hydra is posting, it seems to be actually trying to gamesolve so even though theres a chance it could be scum and just going through the motions I'm just gonna give it a chance for now and consider it town. Obviously my reads arent locked in so I dont see it as a big deal.

Fen I can't remember why I townread, I think i possibly liked a couple of their posts as i was reading through.

What caused this change? It's obviously irrational to just assume someone is scum but if you understood this, you'd never do it to begin with. Why would you do it every game until now but suddenly realize in this game that it's a dumb thing to do?

Can you link the Fenraiser posts that you liked and explain why you liked them? While you're at it, I also want to hear why Firebringer is a townread and Drealmerz is a scumread.

-BV

[Wormhole]

re: fire vs gork: I think it's more of "i dont know which one is more scummier so I'm voting fire.

Why did you pick Fire instead of asking them questions or trying to figure out which one is scummier? And can you respond to the rest of 255?

[Wormhole]

@Drealmerz, why are Smocaine and McMenno scumreads? Also, you've been very active at the beginning of the game. Why did you drop off in activity?

[Wormhole]

Gork, what do you think of Fykus?

@Creature:

Why are you townreading McMenno and Smocaine?

Read on worm: for about the last 6 months every game with skitter I was in I'd go straight to assuming that skitter was scum. Obviously this was a dumb thing to do considering the actual "chance" of her rolling scum. So i've stopped doing that, plus the way the hydra is posting, it seems to be actually trying to gamesolve so even though theres a chance it could be scum and just going through the motions I'm just gonna give it a chance for now and consider it town. Obviously my reads arent locked in so I dont see it as a big deal.

As for not scum reading skitter, i think in our last game it turned out she was town with me for once i think. maybe. Anyways it was stupid what I was doing so ive stopped. Unless you'd rather me do it again?

Right, and in each of those games, I've pointed out that probability doesn't work that way, so I'm not sure where this sudden epiphany came from. And you're paranoid of my scumgame and that I can look townie by gamesolving, so me trying to gamesolve absolves this paranoia how exactly?

Hear that Dreal? Vote Fykus

Wormwhole, how much is Skitskit posting?

Up through and including 429, everything was me except for like three posts BV made that he signed. Everything after that until this post was him; I'm v/la on Friday and Saturday.

--s

Whoops

[Wormhole]

hi whos scum

Heya Dunk. I think your slot might be actually. Our biggest scumread right now is Fykus though.

sup dunk, you scum?

also to appease skitter ill now class worm as a scum read.

Are you saying you now find me scummy? Or is this literally just an 'appeasement' and scumreading me because that's what I expected of you?

I'm fine leaving our slot's vote on him while we wait for him to come do stuff. But I'm happy to discuss other reads. Why are you townreading McMenno and Smocaine?

Because meta I don't want to reveal rn.

Fair enough. I don't get the townreads on either of them though.

i could read this as trying to take pressure off etl, but that might be a bit confbias

No, it's that I don't understand the point of pressuring people who said they're v/la anyways. If ETL is v/la on weekends and has finals, wagoning her and waiting for her to respond during the weekend while she said she's on v/la accomplishes what exactly? Might as well pursue other people and return to them when they get back and can play, especially since we had like a week and a half at the time.

wow that dreal wagon died quick and 4 people voted etl in a row. dunno what to make of it,

but theres not more then 1 scum in those 4 (smocaine, creature, fen, mcmenno)

How do you figure the bolded?

--s

[Wormhole]

intent to hammer in like a couple hours

apparently he's scummy

and then we don't have to worry about this game during xmas

Why do you need to hammer in order to not "worry" about the game? It feels weird that just after voluntarily replacing into a game, you are treating it as some sort of burden that needs to be removed by hammering someone you don't even have a read on. If you don't want to play the game on christmas, then don't. We still have over four days to deadline and you can pick it back up after christmas. I don't understand the logical leap from that to hammering. Assuming you are town, it makes sense to use the remaining time to talk to people, get reads, and think about who is mafia.

I have several issues with your catchup post. For one, it sounds way too confident for a player that has just replaced in and had very little interaction with anyone in the playerlist. You are so confident in your Drealmerz and ETL reads that you are suspecting/townreading people simply based on associations. For instance, you think our slot could be trying to "divert" attention from ETL and you townread the Dreal/ETL wagons. But then, your actual reasons for these high confidence reads are super weak. I don't see what's scummy about ETL's 39 which was the only post of her's you mentioned, and Drealmerz's frustration in 34 I actually found to be a towntell. Then you claim Dreal + ETL based on 48 which I think is a post that actually points slightly

away

from them being partners than towards. But even if you legitimately were convinced Dreal + ETL was the team with the confidence that you had, why would you offer to hammer Fykus with nearly five days to deadline instead of trying to convince us that we were on the wrong track?

I'm still trying to decide if this is a last minute bus or a opportunistic move to grab a mislynch but Dunker overtook Fykus as my #1 scumread. Skitter is not as convinced as I am and we're both agreed that Fykus is a more achievable lynch today but please no one hammer until we've had time to discuss Fykus' claim.

-BV

[Wormhole]

What am I misinterpreting?

-BV

[Wormhole]

If he's town, he after voluntarily replacing into a game is trying to cut short the day phase with a lynch he doesn't believe in so as to not think about the game over the holidays. That makes no sense since he could achieve the same effect by doing nothing. But it does make sense as scum to pull them a step closer to a win (in a world where Fykus is town). Fair enough on not wanting to respond for him on the other stuff.

[Wormhole]

What do you disagree with? You're just stating stuff like "you're reading too much" "this is NAI" and "I disagree" none of which are meaningful to me. Some elaboration on your thought process here would be nice especially since getting content out of this game has been really hard.

[Wormhole]

I thought I was until I saw Dunker's posts. His reads and the way he was "associating" people with each other strongly reminded me of Alchemist's game where he spent the entire time calling Transcend and Boon partners. He just has this weird confidence about his reads based on very little that I think is a reliable scumtell for him. He didn't have that when I played with a town-him.

If Dunker flips scum, I'd say Fykus is less likely to be because of how casually Dunker was willing to hammer him although I wouldn't rule out bussing. Independently I don't have any reason to think Fykus is town. So, I guess I'm not really ready to end the day yet and want more people weighing in and actually explaining their thoughts more.

[Wormhole]

I want to see Fykus' claim and then go from there.

What are your thoughts on Dunker and Fykus?

[Wormhole]

By "cutting it short," I mean that we don't really have enough information and stances from people. Many voted barely giving any reason and there's the mentality of "whatever let's see a flip" which never means anything good. People haven't actually spent time pushing cases or pursuing their reads so I don't know how a flip is actually going to help here.

Do you have any opinion on Dunker's catchup?

Also, just to be clear, we're both suspicious of Fykus *and* Dunker. Only difference is that skitter is more sure of Fykus and only sort of agrees with me on Dunker. I'm much more sure about Dunker but also suspect Fykus.

[Wormhole]

Did you crumb your role anywhere? What is your chosen bread and can you paraphrase the reason why you are a 2-shot JK. Quickly.

[Wormhole]

I'm leaning much more towards that being a fake-claim. Fykus fake-claimed Jailkeeper the last time we played and he was scum against me: viewtopic.php?p=8815823#p8815823

- BV

[Wormhole]

Dunker knows Fykus is town. Flash mob dunk now pls

What makes you so confident about this? We're still trying to figure out which of them is scum or even if both of them are.

[Wormhole]

We're both scumreading Dunker so we're considering voting him, yeah. But I'm not going to just "shut up and vote" someone" without thinking things through. If you want to try and sway my vote, you're much better off logically discussing your read than demanding a vote.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Regarding Dunker saying that he'll get quicklynched for hammering Fykus, I don't think that's the slam dunk tell you're making it out to be considering he never claimed to be scumreading Fykus in the first place, he just wanted the day to end.

I wanted to lynch Dunker for my own reasons before you said anything but your attitude is giving me weird vibes here. We'll think it through and probably wind up voting Dunker anyways later tonight.

-BV

[Wormhole]

I think you'll probably have more fun playing with me if you don't try to push me around. I do think it's really weird that Dunker never even bothered to comment on the claim and just put down a vote. But the way Fykus claimed and his reaction to being hammered was pretty bad. No final reads or suggestions on who to lynch next. Our conundrum is mostly that they both seem scummy but it would be rather odd for them to be partners.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Okay, so me and skitter are on the same page. Fykus might still be scum but he's locked into a claim and it's unlikely that he will endgame. In addition to what I initially said about Dunker's replace in, we both found Fenraiser scummy and Dunker's decision to vote Fykus without even commenting on the claim or trying to get his scumreads lynched felt really opportunistic.

Dunker claiming that he's town because of the fast wagon is a pretty weak argument. Drealmerz and ETL had fast wagons form and that's who he was arguing as a scumteam.

@Smocaine, Fykus claiming the same role he fake-claimed before as scum is notable because if we know that if he's scum, that's the sort of thing he likes to fake-claim. I also read another of his scumgames where he claimed x-shot vanilla cop, and said in the mafia thread why he thought fake-claiming a limited shot role is a good idea. Overall, both JK claim and limited shot role fit in with the kind of thing I'd expect Fykus to fake-claim if he's scum.

I was townreading Dreal early game but he's become a complete non-entity in the past few days so that read has faded and not really inclined to defend him at this point. I want to see him get back into the game and post his thoughts. But since Dunker is one of our top scumreads, we much prefer this wagon.

UNVOTE: Fykus
VOTE: Dunkerdoodles

[Wormhole]

Dunker knows Fykus is town. Flash mob dunk now pls

i know what you're thinking but i'm not that bad
the reason i said it is that i may or may not have an important role

Have I ever played with scum!you? This feels kinda fake. I don't think I've ever seen you semi-soft like this.

VOTE: dreal

What happened to the hip, happening Fykus wagon that you wanted to hammer earlier? Why are you voting Dreal now?

It's more likely Fykus is a scum jk than fake claiming it, if he's scum at all. Dreal has been a nonentity for at least a week. He stopped playing the game when pressured. That is not what I'd expect from town, especially town!Dreal.

So you're saying that this is kinda characteristic behavior for scum!dreal? Or just that he doesn't match his town meta?

wormhole is commenting a lot on how they are talking to each other and agreeing or disagreeing in (i assume) a private thread or something, and it makes me suspicious because they could just be talking about it in the thread, them keeping in secret makes me think they're scum planning out what to say/do next.

maybe this is wrong but just a thought

Do you know who this hydra is? It's skitter (me) and blackvoid. Like there's going to be a lot of walling from both of us (hello newbie 1797) while we figure out what we think; it's either happening here or in the hydra PT. Given the playerlist, I think most people would kinda prefer if we did it in the hydra PT.

(I'm aware that this is a wallpost. Both of us can and do usually write a lot more than this).

Like if you want the walling to happen here and for us to chronicle what each of us think in-thread, that can def be arranged, but I think it would annoy most people here. And we're not keeping anything secret. Like if you want an explanation for something in greater detail, just ask and one of us will answer it, probably whoever made the post in question.

And yeah we talk to each other about the game, and I wasn't on my laptop earlier. BV ended up getting the rambling mobile summaries of my thoughts this afternoon in the hydra PT cuz we usually talk to each other before we change votes or whatever, and he was around and able to post coherently here and I was kinda doing things IRL and wasn't around to post the way I'd like.

I think you'll probably have more fun playing with me if you don't try to push me around. I do think it's really weird that Dunker never even bothered to comment on the claim and just put down a vote. But the way Fykus claimed and his reaction to being hammered was pretty bad. No final reads or suggestions on who to lynch next. Our conundrum is mostly that they both seem scummy but it would be rather odd for them to be partners.

-BV

Except i wasnt hammered.

smocaine is town, worm is scum. dreal is scum by the go of smocaines case on him.
Before you (worm) start carrying on at me asking for an explanation as to why i think you're scum, its mostly just a gut/tone thing from the last page of your responses. it feels a bit off to me.

No, but you acted like you thought you were.

--s

[Wormhole]

No, a hydra. Me (skitter30) and blackvoid.

[Wormhole]

The latter, obviously. What are you getting at?

Honestly, I'm not sure. I think I *was* getting at something, but I'm not sure what exactly atm.

Neither of us much like your Dreal wagon tbh. I'm pretty sure that {dunk/fykus} contains scum, so I wanna stay on those wagons.

--s

[Wormhole]

The latter, obviously. What are you getting at?

Honestly, I'm not sure. I think I *was* getting at something, but I'm not sure what exactly atm.

Neither of us much like your Dreal wagon tbh. I'm pretty sure that {dunk/fykus} contains scum, so I wanna stay on those wagons.

--s

Do you not like it because of what I'm pushing or because of the timing of the wagon?

Both.

I'm hardnull on Dreal. BV is slightly scumreading him, but neither of us think he's nearly as scummy as {dunk/fykus}.

And when Fykus was prodging, his wagon picked up, but when he started posting actually sketchy things, votes on him went onto chick, and when chick claimed, votes went on Dreal. And the fact that both dunk (and fykus while I was writing this) are voting dreal makes me feel like it might be a counterwagon; I *really* dislike that both of them are on it.

--s

[Wormhole]

i like how you skip the part where i got to l-1 and claimed.
its like you're pretending you dont realise that ill resolve tonight by probably dying and if i dont then i can be lynched tomorrow. almost like you dont want me to potentially use my action or something

What on earth are you talking about?

Your wagon built up. It dissipated when you started posting, and went onto Chick. After she claimed, some votes went onto Dreal, some went back to you. Dunk replaces in and wants to hammer you. You claim. We vote Dunk. You and Dunk vote Dreal.

Right now we want Dunk more than you. And BV doesn't even believe your claim anyways

And he literally said this when he switched our vote to Dunk:

. Fykus might still be scum but he's locked into a claim and it's unlikely that he will endgame.

Like he literally acknowledges that you'll probably resolve by dying and that if you don't, you'll get lynched at some point. It's unlikely that you'll make it to endgame with that claim, which is the main reason why we switched to Dunk.

And other people went *back* onto your wagon after you claimed.

Spoiler: wall of quotes

Fykus L-2 Gorkington, Creature, McMenno, Smocaine, Whemestar

VOTE: chickadee

VOTE: Chickadee

because Fykus wagon isn't being productive rn.

(still I may return to Fykus)

Hard claim loud friendly neighbor. Can we move the fuck on now, because all the scum reads on me seem like they’re for really stupid reasons.

My mother told me to pick the very best one, however I am stubborn so I choose Y-O-U

VOTE: dreal

VOTE: fykus

VOTE: Fykus

intent to hammer in like a couple hours
apparently he's scummy and then we don't have to worry about this game during xmas

its boxing day here, thats why i never claimed yesterday, but have a claim for christmas. 2 shot jk.

merry christmas friends.

cool i don't have to hammer anymore
VOTE: Fykus

VOTE: dreal

UNVOTE: Fykus
VOTE: Dunkerdoodles

agree with smocaine dreal is a good lynch

VOTE: dreal

--s

[Wormhole]

Please stop trying to hammer.

We're still discussing Drealmerz, Fykus, and Dunker and trying to make sense of it. I don't like anything Drealmerz posted lately. Don't like the claim and disappearance while calling us all stupid, don't like the complete lack of engagement or lurking although this isn't exclusive to Drealmerz. I honestly wouldn't complain too much about a Drealmerz lynch but I need to rethink Fykus and Dunker. If we're right about Fykus and Dunker being scum, it's unlikely Drealmerz is because of how he formed as a counterwagon that they are both getting behind. I'd also like a chance for me and skitter to both make a detailed final post with our reads regardless of who we lynch. I find it hard to buy both JK and tracker being town so there's at least one scum in Dreal/Fykus. I'd actually really appreciate if someone unvotes to prevent a quickhammer. I want to hear Ectomancer, Chickadee, and MisaTange's opinions on recent events/wagons.

@Drealmerz, please post your updated reads based on recent content.

- BV

[Wormhole]

Not really. I've read past mafia PTs of Fykus where he instructs his buddies to pretend like they are town when they are fake-hammered so it's certainly something I could see him doing as scum. If he was town, I'd expect some actual reads.

Who do you think is scum, Creature? You're my one of our few solid townreads and I could use more opinions and ideas as the game feel very confusing right now.

- BV

[Wormhole]

Smocaine is another of my more solid townreads. I think the way he was pushing for Drealmerz, passionately arguing against the Dunker wagon and making a case all feel like townie involvement. I think Chickadee's friendly neighbor claim points more towards town than not. Most other people are null to scummy.

MisaTange hasn't posted for over three days now so should probably be prodded or replaced. Ectomancer's Smocaine read is probably one of the stretchiest I've ever seen i.e. to accuse him of trying to create an artificial sense of urgency by quoting the old VCs before the updated deadline? I don't know why he'd make such a ridiculous argument as scum if he isn't the sort of person would genuinely believe it as town though so I don't know if it's alignment-indicative. I'd expect scum to go for more conventional, nice-sounding arguments.

I was following a game Drealmerz was playing in where he was town and got really frustrated at the end and got mislynched even though he was correctly reading scum. I'm not sure if being disengaged from the game is a scumtell for him. I have a really hard time seeing any of Fykus' posts as town. He doesn't seem interested at all in scumhunting. He's spent very little time talking about any reads he got from his wagon or taken any opinions on his counterwagon. I hated Dunker's replace in, don't have much of an opinion on his posting since. I liked Firebringer's passion for the Dunker push even if it initially rubbed me the wrong way and I have a slight townlean on him. Gorkington has a very floating-by vibe which I don't like although skitter disagrees with me and thinks he's generally town although she doesn't like his interactions with Fykus.

-BV

[Wormhole]

I have no idea. Oh, I forgot McMenno. I don't have any read on him. He just pops up from time to time with random comments and I don't really know how to read that. How is he different in his town vs scumgames? I remember you saying he was town based on meta.

- BV

[Wormhole]

VOTE: wheme

You want Dreal, and wheme indicates he wants to hammer him, so you start a vanity wagon on wheme two days to deadline because ???

@Ecto:

Do you normally ask to open your Christmas presents early? You'll probably get something because I'm pretty sure Christmas is an everyone-V/LA day. Also, votecount was updated and Ectomancer replaced CityElectric and Dunkerdoodles replaced Fenraiser.

Like jjh announced the probable extension in the same post he announced that you replaced in You were in the game already when we got an extension for christmas. (Deadline is now on Friday)

And smocaine's post was about Dreal, and had literally nothing to do with deadline.

Fykus makes for a likely Drealmerz partner. I'm not going to lose any sleep is we lynch him. Dunker was getting pushed for his replace in alone pretty much. As someone who straight up doesn't read on replacing in and who has called my own slot scummy on replace in one of the few times I did read, Dunk is more of a null read. I've gotten the same bs on replacing in when it should be nai, and we have a day filled with scumfuckery. I wanted to use that as opposed to an overreaction to a yet to be engaged replace in.

I'm more confident in Drealmerz7 than I am in Fykus. I have no issues waiting for more input, but we are lynching in Dreal/Fykus. No more claims.

So I wasn't sure why you were backing Dunk here, but this post kinda makes your Dunk townread click for me, and I now have you as town too.

So my problem with Dunk isn't really his replace-in, or the fact that he called his own slot scummy. I don't especially like it, but it's pretty much NAI for me.

What I don't like with him is that he appears to be itching to hammer like anything that gets within hammering range (fykus and dreal); it makes me feel like he doesn't really care *who* flips or why, just that a lynch happens already. I also don't like the fact that he randomly kinda softed.

Also, did you notice that both dunk and fykus are tying you to a dreal lynch and are justifying the lynch because of your push?

agree with smocaine dreal is a good lynch

smocaine is town, worm is scum. dreal is scum by the go of smocaines case on him.

And I understand why you don't like dreal based on your experience with him; that's kinda where I'm coming from on Fykus. He just feels really weird in comparison to past games with him.

wormhole are you opposed to this lynch?

tldr: I'd be OK with it, but I want Fykus or you more (although it seems you're more off the table now), but BV *really* doesn't want the day to end yet, until *he* figures out which of fykus/dreal/dunk he wants more, and he also doesn't want the day to end without hearing like opinions from dreal/ecto/misa/chick when she comes off v/la.

thinks he's generally town although she doesn't like his interactions with Fykus.

have i even had interactions with fykus this game?

Kinda, but mostly indirectly, and that's what I don't like.

Like when Fykus started posting and I said I hated the townread, you seemed interested in why but didn't really follow up after I answered, and then switched off of Fykus onto Chick and then onto Dreal when she claimed. At the time, I noted to BV that I was finding it kinda weird that the fykus votes ended up on Chick, and I thought yours was the worst. I still feel some hesitation in that I kinda think dreal might be a counterwagon to one of fykus or dunk, and if that's happening, it looks like you might be involved in that; your interactions with all of those wagons are kinda ick for me.

--s

[Wormhole]

That's fair.

I still don't like your voting patterns.

--s

[Wormhole]

Chick had just replaced in and vc's aren't super frequent, so I didn't have a problem with those posts.

And I agree with you that I'm having trouble sorting people; like everyone feels super scummy to me. I have like two good townreads, chick's getting a pass for now cuz I kinda believe her claim, and a couple of people I've rounded up to nulltown just because everyone else seems scummier and they can't *all* be scum.

And I agree with Creature on Fykus. He just feels incredibly wrong to me right now.

--s

[Wormhole]

You didn't make a "tryhard" post. My point is that if it looks like you are hammered, I'd expect you to pretend that you are hammered and try to react like a townie that was hammered. Instead of checking the votes to see if you actually got hammered, you just said that you weren't scum and wished us luck.

Tracker and JK are both roles that become stronger as more scum are lynched. With only one scum, they are both nearly as powerful as cops. That makes them somewhat redundant and overpowered.

Why are you voting Whemestar?

-BV

[Wormhole]

i think the longer we push back the flip because we want to figure everything out, the more the game is going to feel like a slog and people are going to not feel like posting/parsing things.
sometimes you just have to pick a scumread and go with it and not worry about the fact that you havent figured everything out yet.
especially when it comes to making sure that the general state of the game isnt becoming shitty.

Fair enough!

Between dreal/fykus, both of us want this more.

UNVOTE: Dunk
VOTE: Fykus

I'm pretty sure that's L-2 but I may have missed a vote.

--s

[Wormhole]

I received a PM from the mod that chickadee is town

I think I believe this. Results would be nice.

I might just shoot wormhole cause I don’t like their posts.

This is why I shouldn’t be given vig in games

Eh, probably not the best idea. I'll try to keep them shorter though.

VOTE: Dunk

--s

[Wormhole]

Fire, you feel very strongly on town!Gork? (Just checking cuz you've called him scum repeatedly; trying to clarify where you were meming and where you're being serious).

I'm going to take all the claims as true for now, and we're somewhere here-ish:

{Fire/Chick}
{Smocaine}
{wheme} ---null
{Mcmenno/dreal/Gork/Fish}
{dunk}

Roughly; BV's list is *slightly* different but pretty similar to mine (he wants to move Dreal down a level, and I think there's a few other slight differences that I don't remember offhand, but nothing that drastically different)

--s

[Wormhole]

@worm now that fykus flipped town am i still scum?

You wanted to lolhammer him when you replaced in, and then you ultimately did lol-L-1 him despite this being the last thing you said about him:

ok fykus gets towny points for that post

The fact that he flipped town is more incriminating for you tbh than if he had flipped scum.

BV's also played with scum!you and thinks you match your scum-meta, but I'll let him explain that.

--s

[Wormhole]

I'm suspicious of ppl wanting me to claim my result

I'm suspicious of ppl who are suspecting wormhole, who seems super-towny to me

As far as I can tell, it's only me/Gork who've asked lol. Maybe I'm missing something, but we already know your role, so I'm not fully understanding your reluctance to sharing?

see, with misatange being a fruit vendor, part of me is thinking they visited a PGO type, and you're their scumbud who decided to claim the kill

I know that not everyone checked in yet (just waiting on Fish I think), but if this was a thing ... wouldn't the PGO just claim they were visited? And then we'd have 1v1 that's guaranteed to contain a liar and probable scum. I kinda feel like if Fire's lying, it'll just resolve itself, so I'm not especially worried about such things right now.

--s

[Wormhole]

I mean ... isn't she a fruit vendor? Wouldn't they have gotten fruit?

[Wormhole]

BV's also played with scum!you and thinks you match your scum-meta, but I'll let him explain that.

bumping this.

He hasn't been around since I wrote that; he alluded to a meta case overnight that he didn't have a chance to expound upon.

Hello everyone. I'm reading up, and will be done tonight or tomorrow. Shout if there's anything I should particularly look at as a priority.

I dunno if there's anything I especially want you to look at; I just kinda want some content from your slot today since viewtopic.php?p=9843197#p9843197 was pretty much the only post from your slot that had any content all game, and the post was kinda bizarre/ asinine.

Also, hi and welcome! (This is skitter btw!)

[Wormhole]

I can confirm we didn't visit anyone; no clue if anyone visited us.

I'm inclined to believe the claim, but don't think it's inherently AI.

--s

[Wormhole]

1. Do you think Drealmerz is scum? Because I found this response rather weird. You aren't saying that town can have both a tracker and motion detector. You're emphasizing the fact that Drealmerz isn't confirmed. But if you don't think it's likely your role co-exists with Drealmerz's, why didn't you speak up when he claimed D1?

2. Helps check whether your target is a power role. Also, if anyone visited your target, you could deduce that they are likely power roles. I can see scum motivation in checking us specifically to catch potential docs (which scum would be wary of since having a strongman basically implies that there are protective roles).

@Gorking, I sort of explain my Dunker scumread in 533 and 545. I'd be happy to discuss more and elaborate if you want to engage the points I made there.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Yeah, but why wouldn't you just tell Firebringer that they are both weak investigative roles so they could definitely co-exist which sufficiently refutes his argument? The way you responded felt more like you were trying to shade Drealmerz's claim to reduce suspicion of yourself.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Dunk, can you explain why you decided to check us last night?

Fire, can you explain why you think Gork is town?

Fish, I like your catchup post lol; both because it's so nicely organized lol and because I mostly like the content you've provided. It's not enough to bump you up from nullscum yet, cuz of how you're slot has been the whole game, but so far I like what I'm seeing.

But the clincher is the windows into the hydra; it's like having access to a player's internal monologue, which I think is hard to fake and in this case obvtown.

I dunno what this means lol.

I do like the associatives you've presented between Misa/Gork; I had been noticing similar things when I reread the game earlier.

Wheme, I do kinda want an explanation for why you started off the day voting Dunk if you have an inno on him. I don't think that quantifies as rolefishing; it's more requesting an explanation of your behavior.

--s

[Wormhole]

@FishytheFish, what do you think of Drealmerz's tracker claim (and refusal to claim his results)? It was one of the things I wanted to have out in the open before the end of the day. It seems like Dunker is your second strongest scumread. Do you have any thoughts on his interactions with MisaTange. Also, in general I like your catch up and Gork case. He was definitely floating under the radar for much of D1 and someone we wanted to look into more today.

Which scumgame have you played with Drealmer? I quickly skimmed another scumgame of Drealmerz's and his tone seemed very similar to here.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Is there a reason my slot is at nullscum rather than null for you? It looks to my like it's got no content, except for one really weird post from Ecto that I haven't seen anyone think is scummy rather than just weird.

I feel like no content should *theoretically* be a nullread, since there's no content to judge a slot on, but the longer a slot doesn't provide content, the more I tend to scumread them; like the lack of content becomes a reason to scumread someone for me. So, the fact that there's been like no content from your slot is actually the reason why I'm tending to nullscum and not just null (although I kinda like both of the posts you've made this morning.)

And yeah I dunno if that post is scummy so much as bizarre .... but it's the only post with content from your slot until you replaced in, so it's something that needs to be taken into account.

Making up this sentiment from BV would be impressive stuff, and the sentiment not something that is likely to come from scum. I think that to fake this and other posts like it, you'd have to maintaining a whole "if we were town" thread in your hydra, which would be more effort than people usually put in.

Ah, got it. Yeah we've been discussing in the hydra PT, but we're not inflicting that upon the thread lol

--s

[Wormhole]

VOTE: Wormhole
i'll sheep on dreal/gork too i guess
or anyone else really

I'd kinda vote you for this post (not even the vote on me, so much as the fact that you'd sheep anyone), but I'm voting you already so ...

Why do you want to vote Dreal?

also @fish: I had a whole post about your catchup, but I accidentally closed my browser and it disappeared into the ether. I'll try to write it again later.

--s

[Wormhole]

I mean, I'm voting you, so sheeping me is probably not in your best self-interest ...

Telling your scumread that you'd sheep them isn't really such a great look tbh.

Who do you actually find scummy (besides for myself, of course)?

--s

[Wormhole]

This town really does need to pull itself together. The two main things here are:
1) Gork is scum.
2) Wheme is probably fakeclaiming cop, and needs to fullclaim, retract his claim, or die.
Can we please focus on those things?

I think that there's a fairly decent chance he's fakeclaiming cop to back his Dunk townread tbh. Idk, I've never played with him before, but this doesn't seem that scummy *for him*.

IE I don't especially believe the cop claim, but I don't think he's necessarily scummy for claiming it. I don't exactly know how to explain this better tbh.

What do you think about Dunk?

Stop Fishy

I don't remember you doing like anything this dayphase.

ive been pretty fucked healthwise the last week and a half

Feel better!!!!!

--s

[Wormhole]

I agree - "fakeclaiming cop as town" is definitely near the top of my theories here. However,

I'd feel pretty stupid lynching dunkers if there's a real cop inno on him

. I guess we could just ignore the claim unless/until Wheme makes it convincing

Nothing has changed since my catchup on Dunk - he's weakly scum to me. His posting is mostly stuff I can't read because it doesn't make much sense to me; he clearly doesn't think about this game in the same way I do.

The one bit of the case that makes sense is that he *may* have given away that he knew Fykus was town

.

Could you summarise why you think Dunk is scum?

Idk, I just don't think fake-claiming is that scummy for *wheme* in particular. And you haven't expressed a super big interest in lynching dunker right now, so the italics is kinda a weird phrasing for me.

The one bit that sticks out for me is 548. This was clearly written with an assumption that Fykus was town. That is quite likely because dunker knows that for sure.

What changed between the above and the bolded?

Case on Dunk (and his predecessor) is discussed in: 150, 252, 533, 545, 593, 694

tldr: Fen had a bizarre progression on Creature and then disappeared when he was under pressure. Dunk wanted to hammer anyone within hammering range, regardless of his read on them, and I think that 548 is actually kinda damning.

--s

[Wormhole]

i'm also somewhat-confirmed role wise so

on the fykus thing, i probably worded it badly, so that's my fault. i ment to say if he does flip town i would be lynched most likely cause i hammered him. if he flips scum i obviously wouldn't be in as much trouble, i thought that was obvious when i posted it so i just said what would happen if he flipped town

Right, but role != alignment, so that's kinda irrelevant. I'm also pointing out that we're confirmed to you to have not done anything last night, so you know we couldn't have done anything nefarious last night anyways.

And the way you worded it kinda sounds like you knew you would be in trouble if you quickhammered *because* you knew you would flip town.

--s

[Wormhole]

idk, I haven't played with scum!you. BV thinks you match your scum!meta though from a game he played with you.

p-edit: yeah I thought the soft was kinda bizarre but your slot wasn't getting night-killed regardless, even if you softed that, given that chick outright claimed modified loud-friendly neighbor

sigh

[Wormhole]

idk. I'm not scumreading you on meta, but because of things you did here.

Why do you even care what I think about you given that you're scumreading me?

Like, why are you trying to talk me out of it instead of just calling me lying scum or something?

[Wormhole]

I don't know wheme; I was thinking about it being a fake-claim as either alignment because a) it looks fake and b) it makes no sense for scum or town.

Agree, which is basically why I think it's NAI.

That may be because he knew that (and is scum), or for some other reason (which is null). It's hard to say exactly how likely each of those are; it's a decent point against him but certainly not cast-iron.

This was clearly written with an assumption that Fykus was town. That is quite likely because dunker knows that for sure.

So my point is that in 894, you clearly indicate that you believe that Dunk wrote that post knowing that Fykus is town. In 978 (and the bolded in 966), I kinda feel like you're downplaying the strength of this argument.

You went from 'that is quite likely because Dunker knows that for sure' -> 'he *may* have given away that he knew Dunk is town' -> 'decent point against him but certainly not cast-iron'. You went from agreeing with it to downplaying it's significance, and I'm trying to understand what happened to change your view on this point against Dunk.

dunk's roleclaim is actually a small towntell for me. Not for the role itself, but because dunk thought it would get him towncred. Town are more likely to think that; because scum would *know* that the role could be scum.

I don't understand this point. Why would scum *know* that motion detector could be scum? (And not, say, any other role).

I agree that Dunk thought it would get him towncred, which is explicitly why I think it's scummy. I don't see the town motivation for softing there.

On another note: you said you had thoughts on my catch-up but you lost the post. Is there more you haven't said?

Yeah but I realized that there's a couple of points I want to talk with BV about before I post them and he hasn't been super around for the past couple of days. Also I'm intrigued by the you/Gork interaction and I want to see it play out naturally without directly intervening by providing commentary for now.

--s

[Wormhole]

Lynchpool:

Dunk - Discussed at great length

Fish - the tldr is that although I like his content, I feel like it's basically exactly where scum replacing into his slot ought to be pushing, so I'm hesitant to call him town for it; I don't know if the pushes he's making are AI. He could be town trying to get out of a tight spot, but he could well be scum trying to get out of a tight spot too. I feel like he's dancing around his Dunk scumread, and that his scumreads on wheme/mcmenno are slightly oppurtunistic. Like I understand why they're scumreads, but I also feel like if they're town, they're kidna lynchbait-y and are easy pushes. I do like his Gork case though, since me/BV had similar trepidiation about Gork overnight that we had discussed at length

Gork - I talked about this with him before, but I didn't like his early voting patterns; I do agree with Fish that Misa's short ISO does seem to feature Gork an unusual amount given how low-content she was; I get *really* bad vibes from like everything Gork posted on page 28, including the following:

Spoiler:

i just dont want to feel personally responsible for choosing which if we're wrong.

Feels like he's distancing from a town flip.

im having an off game and its quite unfortunate.
i hope you can forgive me

*shrug* im probably getting lynched at some point this game, or at least, im sure im going to get hardwagoned at some point for not being town enough unless we win early.

These last two kinda pings me, but it's hard to articulate. Like I feel like he's trying to lower expectations of his slot in general?

I prefer Dunk right now though, and kinda want Gork to catchup and the fish/Gork discussion to play out; I need to go through the gork/fish thing in greater depth when I have a chance.

(I can elaborate more on this if anyone wants me too, but I'm v/la on Fridays/Saturdays; I don't know if it'll happen before tomorrow night)

--s

[Wormhole]

@FishyTheFish, can you elaborate more on the differences you found between Drealmerz's scumgame and this game? The game you linked was the same one that I skimmed through. I initially thought Drealmerz was town because his frustration at the beginning of the game towards people townreading Creature seemed genuine but when I skimmed through his scumgame, he had a similarly, frustrated, annoyed tone at the beginning. This doesn't mean he's scum here but it does mean that my initial townread was wrong and that I should be reading him based on other things. I haven't yet figured out what I think of Drealmerz. I didn't like the way he claimed and expecting the claim to save him and then disappearing felt scummy. I also think tracker + JK is an unlikely combination of roles for town to have because both of them become stronger as the game goes on and scum are lynched. For instance, if we come down to the last scum remaining, we essentially have two cops. There's also some positive feedback in that if the town is winning, it becomes even more likely to win with roles like those (let me know if this doesn't make sense, I'm not sure if I'm phrasing this right). One of the problems we had about your posting was that you seemed very intent on getting Wheme to claim but not Drealmerz but your logic here makes some sense. But I'd like to hear more on Drealmerz and why this is different from his scumgame.

@Drealmerz, for someone who claims that we should be scumhunting, you aren't doing much of it at all. Your only major push this game was Creature after which you've been pretty okay with anyone dying and haven't had any strong opinions at all. Now you are throwing around the possibility of a Wheme policy lynch. Nothing you've done in this game felt like you were trying to solve it.

Me and skitter have both come around to second-guessing our Dunk read especially because there are other players he could attack than us and he just seemed to be really paranoid.

We haven't discussed Wheme's claim yet but personally I think if he's scum, he pulled it off really well and his behavior makes a lot of sense with the role he claims to have. Wheme's role is pretty odd though and it would mean that scum who fake-claim the roles that the mod gives them are more likely to do well. It would also suggest that the fake-claims they got are not necessarily abilities that they have. For example, if Drealmerz is a scum tracker, then he would most likely get a town tracker fakeclaim. Wheme would get a result that he's a town tracker and Drealmerz would have real results to give.

@FishytheFish

, what do you think of this: Wheme's role being town doesn't really seem compatible with scum having town-like roles like tracker. From that perspective, it might actually be a good idea to get Drealmerz to claim his results - although this is true only if Wheme is town. Overall, my guess at this point is that both Wheme and Dunker are more likely town than not.

Upon re-read, I didn't like Fishythefish's Gorkinton case as much as my partner did. I think some of it felt like shoehorning Misa's behavior to fit into Gork being scum whereas a lot of it also makes sense from the perspective of Misa-scum, Gork-town. But we need to look into this more so elaboration will come tomorrow or tonight.

@Smocaine, your posts continue to feel like you have a completely different approach to mafia than I do. Ectomancer's 622 was a good point, not "pointless shade." Wheme's post saying "let's just kill someone" was a rather terrible post and people making such posts as town shouldn't really be playing the game. I like that Ectomancer pushed him on that point.

Finally, just want to acknowledge that I noticed the McMenno push and case. I'll think about this at work and post more later but I've found McMenno's playstyle somewhat random and incoherent so I don't know how much stock to place into his abandoned MisaTange push. I'm looking into the Dreal, Gork, Fish, McMenno, Smocaine group as the ones I have the least role-based reasons to think are town so I'll try to sort through that in a bit.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Eh, can you not lolhammer before a claim please?

[Wormhole]

basically, atm, I think that all scum are likely in {dreal/mcmenno/gork/fish}, with a *very* small chance of it being you, just on PoE. I think that wheme/dunk are the same alignment, and I don't think they're scum/scum tbh.

I'm kinda meh on mcmenno. I don't especially think he's scum. I don't especially think he's not scum. He just kinda is. I wouldn't be surprised at a town!mcmenno flip. I wouldn't be surprised at a scum!mcmenno flip.

If mcmenno were to flip town, I'd probably want dreal more tbh.

Do you think that there's both a town!motion detector and a town!tracker? This point is actually one of the major reasons why I'm kinda confused by the role stuff; I kinda think it's unlikely that both dreal and dunk are town just on roles, given that MD is just a weaker version tracker. Like it's kinda superfluous to have both imo.

BV kinda doesn't want the day to end though yet, so there's that. He wants to sort dreal.

(this is skitter btw)

[Wormhole]

I'm not entirely sure what you're objecting to tbh

[Wormhole]

Eh, maybe I didn't word that well.

I think you and wheme are of the same alignment. I don't think you're scum/scum.

I think scum are in {dreal/gork/fish/mcmenno} (maybe smocaine but I don't think so; I'm townreading him)

I think it's unlikely that there's both a town!tracker and a town!MD, which is partly why I'm tending to thinking that Dreal might be scum here, because I don't think that you/wheme are scum/scum, which means that you're town/town if I'm right in thinking that you're the same alignment.

Does that clarify it?

Oh, I was in middle of writing another post like an hour ago and I had unvoted in it but I forgot that I didn't actually post it yet lol. let me post that too.

UNVOTE:

[Wormhole]

if you read those three posts, do you think he seems comfortable voting misa and unvoting her? do you think its weird that he completely forget she exists after his initial vote and unvote after he said he was going to keep an eye on her and the rest of her play basically devolved into avoiding/barely answering questions before just completely lurking out?

p-edit: thats what i felt too.
i think the followup and unvote is bad too.

Honestly, I don't think this is that compelling given the sort of content he's had all game. I can kinda see him thinking that he had found something (albeit a wrong something; she had unvoted me and not Dreal), voted her for it, getting into a state of apathy and just not caring. I mean he literally says he wants to outsource his voting responsibility around there. I do agree that the middle post is kinda ick; that he wanted to 'keep an eye on misa' but voted ETL. I don't know if the other two posts you quoted are that compelling. Like I'm just kinda meh on him overall. I don't think he's scum. I don't think he's not scum. He just kinda is.

If dunker is scum then motion detector is his fake claim

So, a few comments on this:

1. Do scum have fake-claims? Wondering aloud because misa's role PM doesn't indicate a fake-claim

2. Town!MD and town!tracker seem kinda superfluous? What do other people think about this?

3. I think that wheme/dunk are the same alignment.

I don't think that town!wheme and scum!dunk is a thing because that would imply that MD was a fakeclaim for dunk, and his result was accurate on us (at least, on my side; I dunno if anyone visited us). I don't think that scum!wheme and town!dunk is a thing, cuz, like, what's the point for scum!wheme to do this?

fire can you stop your deathtunnel now that im conf town
thx <3

I don't think you're conf!town right now, but I do think that you and wheme are likely the same alignment.

I do think I want to unvote for now though.

UNVOTE:

@fish (just spoiling cuz there's a lot):

Spoiler:

I think I went from "X is quite likely" to "X may be true here"? That's a fairly small shift which I think mostly just reflects the fact that I have trouble weighing the probability with any exactness. Like, I think there's definitely a 30-70% chance that Dunk's 584 is a scumslip, and beyond that it's really hard to calibrate.

Eh, fair enough. In succession it kinda looked more drastic though, and I was kinda reading that post with the mindset that you might be scum!dunk's partner trying to distance; like trying to give a scumread and distance but focus on the Gork case and kinda like weaken the Dunk thing over time? Idk if I explained that well. That's why I mentioned I was worried that you might be dancing around the dunk scumread, because that post gave me partner-y vibes.

Dunk!motion-detector-scum is a scum motion detector, and so knows that motion detector is a completely plausible scum role, and so is less likely to believe that motion detector will get towncred. This pattern of thought isn't totally logical, but I think it's real - I think it's rare that scum think they are going to get massive towncred when claiming their role, because they overestimate the chances of that role being given to scum.

Hmm, OK, I think I get what you're trying to say. This is the first time I've thought about it this way, and I'm not entirely sure I buy this line of reasoning; I kinda have to think about whether or not I agree with you here.

This seems kinda unfair. My main scumread and case is on Gork, which a) is completely new and b) you like. Scumreading me by focusing on my less important reads (which I agree aren't nearly as well thought out or solid) is demanding a really high standard from someone who's replaced in fairly recently.
Agree that Wheme and McMenno are lynchbait-y and easy pushes if town. I h ave serious trouble sorting that sort of player; in a game where I have quite a lot of townreads, they are going to end up in a PoE scum pile, but it's not a pile I'm happy with.

Dancing around my scumread on Dunk - not sure what you mean by this. I think Dunk is hard to read, and that quite a lot of the reason people are voting him is NAI, but there are a couple of decent points as well. He's a better lynch than most, but not as likely scum as Gork.

You're right, sorry. I just get kinda paranoid of replacements if I think they might be trying to take advantage of easy pushes. Like my first game with BV, I kinda did the exact same thing to him when he replaced in and I ultimately got him mislynched him for this, kinda by mistake, cuz I couldn't get over this point >_>

Your replace-in kinda reminded me of his replace-in there, and that game kinda taught me that I got waaaay too paranoid of replacements and that I expect waaaay too high a standard of them. And the more that I think about it, the more I think you're probably town.

Kinda agree with you that wheme/mcmenno are PoE/lynch-baity if town, and I kinda wish I can read them better, but atm I don't know how to.

And see above for what I meant about Dunk.

--s

[Wormhole]

Actually the weird thing is, I posted the possibility of a Fish/Dreal team in our hydra PT and then read the thread to see Smocaine posted the same thing but that's just me (BlackVoid). Skitter suspects McMenno more. @Chickadee, can you unvote for a bit until we have time to discuss and thanks.

Worm, going into day 2 on a town flip on mcmenno, who would you help me lynch out of Dreal/Fishy?

I don't need a McMenno townflip to consider that possibility. Let's talk about it right now.

[Wormhole]

I dont think that Dreal claimed to be 2-shot?

--s

(since BV's posting too, all the posts on this page except 1121 are mine)

[Wormhole]

But tracker and motion detector seem partially redundant too. Motion dectector is like a weaker version of tracker although admittedly it would also detect that someone visited your target.

Where did Dreal say he was 2-shot? I was under the impression that he claimed full tracker.

-BV

[Wormhole]

I'll post where I'm currently at, then I'll respond to FishyTheFish's responses to me.

Firebringer and Chickadee are obviously town and Smocaine is both of our strongest purely play-based townread. Regarding Dunker and Wheme, I think Wheme is town. I think the way he claimed is towny and I don't think he would either tie himself to a partner or go out of his way to derail a mislynch on a town-Dunker. As for Dunker himself, I think he's more likely town than not. I haven't actually ruled out the possibility that he could be a scum tracker/watcher with a motion detector fake-claim or if one of his buddies have a role which gives them such information (Drealmerz would be the obvious candidate). But I think it's more likely than not (>50%) that Dunker is just town here. That leaves our scumpool among McMenno/Gorkington/FishyTheFish and Drealmerz. Personally, I think Drealmerz is the most likely of the group to flip scum. Tracker and 2-shot JK together seem like unlikely roles. Tracker and motion detector together seem like unlikely roles. I don't like the way Drealmerz claimed. I don't think he's done anything significantly town-motivated in the entirety of the game so far. My thoughts on McMenno mirror skitter's pretty much. I don't have a read either way. I'm actually leaning more towards town than not for Gorkington because I don't see him being scum with any of our other suspects. He has an early push on Drealmerz, he started a McMenno wagon when he didn't have to and Fish came strongly out of the gate attacking him. I wish I had a more concrete reason to townread him though.

Summary

(just BlackVoid-reads)

Chickadee
Firebringer

Smocaine
Whemestar

Dunkerdoodles
Gorkington

FishyTheFish/McMenno

Drealmerz

[Wormhole]

@FishyTheFish, I don't want to quote so much text but this is a response to your read on Drealmerz which you talked about in 1086.

You said that Drealmerz took more of a backseat in his scumgame. In this game, he's barely posted anything at all. After the initial push on Creature (which didn't last very long and was actually pretty bad since it centered around Creature claiming miller), he faded out. He was reasonably active when he initially got wagoned but after the wagon dissipated, he didn't post much. This is really odd behavior because he said in 90 that he's a good wagon because he generates a lot of content when wagoned. But he never followed through with any of his insights and was content to hang back when the wagon went away. In the interim, he voted Smocaine because he didn't understand something Smocaine said, said he was "totally down" for a McMenno lynch when Firebringer voted McMenno, and then wanted to lynch ETL-slot because she wanted to be replaced. Then he votes Fenraiser and Fykus. When he got wagoned again, he claimed tracker and told people to fuck off of him.

I don't see how he's done anything this game

but

take a backseat. He wanted Creature dead for the miller claim which is really bad reasoning and the early wallposts (I can at least buy this as a "tone" read). He wanted Smocaine dead because he didn't understand something Smocaine said Smocaine called out his Creature vote as bad. He wanted ETL lynched because ETL requested replacement. He voted Fenraiser because "let's just kill something." He voted Fykus because "deadline." I don't see him at any point putting himself out there and actually scumhunting. None of those reasons are anything close to well-thought-out.

His D2 push on Firebringer isn't any better. Me and skitter are still discussing this point because she thought Drealmerz wouldn't attack Firebringer as scum. Personally, I think it was just a crappy push that makes no sense as town either and probably done so that he could get some "scum-wouldn't-do-that" points and the PGO argument is a stretch. For all his talk about how people need to be scumhunting, he's done so little of it.

I have a super hard time seeing where you (Fishy) are coming from saying that Drealmerz takes a backseat as scum but isn't doing so here. You said his early play was aggressive. Sure, I agree but it's such a small sample of one or two real life days compared with the entire game so far.

[Wormhole]

^ I'll respond to this more fully later, but the difference I saw is in how confrontational dreal is, doing things like very directly accusing people of being scum - not in levels of scumhunting.

But I'll reread this; because it was definitely something that struck me very strongly early on, and I'm not 100% sure how well it persists later on.

This is his ISO in the game you are talking about and I didn't notice any significant difference in how confrontational he is or felt that his accusations were more direct here than there. More specifics would help.

-BV

[Wormhole]

I did just go into as much detail as I could and I talked about why I don't like his claim so I don't really know what you are looking for? How about this: why don't

you

go into significant detail on your Drealmerz read and then we'll talk. I'll respond to other stuff when I'm fully awake.

-BV

[Wormhole]

I misinterpreted Gork's last post, sorry. I'd still appreciate in-depth thoughts on Drealmerz from your end though.

We're both cool with going through the Drealmerz/McMenno/FishytheFish pool. I'll be surprised if it doesn't contain both scum. But I'd really like for McMenno and Drealmerz to both post and defend themselves before we go through with a lynch. McMenno hasn't posted in 3 days 20 hours, and Drealmerz hasn't posted for 4 days 12 hours so probably expecting them to be prodded.

- BV

[Wormhole]

Why are you playing in such an impatient way that you can't wait for McMenno to come back and claim? That would have given us much more info and would have helped us form a better informed decision. If he doesn't come back, that's cool too. He just gets prodded, someone might replace him and if they are active, we get a wealth of info from them.

It's frustrating playing in a game where everytime someone's at L-1, I have to keep looking over my shoulder to see if someone "lolhammers" them out of the blue. Even more when that's compounded by a chorus of "let's just flip someone, let's just kill something." I actually wanted to play mafia and solve the game, not just random lynch. In the future, I'd appreciate if you don't replace into games that I (BlackVoid) am playing in. This goes regardless of his flip and yours.

Hopefully, he's scum. If not, my best guess is Drealmerz/FishyTheFish. I'll try and post final thoughts before thread lock.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Okay, that went better than I expected. I still think it's better to let people claim before lynching in the long run.

I think the last mafia is probably FishyTheFish. I didn't like the push on Dunker when McMenno was getting wagoned.

-BV

[Wormhole]

please note wormhole's attempts to stall the wagon and not giving a clear read on mcmenno and also not participating in the wagon

ps: im really sorry if you're town skitter and bv but i just have a feeling

It wasn't exactly stalling so much as me and BV were trying to sort through the {you/fish/mcmenno/dreal/gork} pool and pare it down to likely pairs, and the fact that I'm feeling kinda burnt out atm and haven't really had the motivation over the past few days to explain what I'm thinking and why, which is why I haven't really been posting.

the tldr version of everything that I've been thinking over the past couple of days is that the strength of fishy's read on you is inversely proportional to the perceived strength of wheme's inno on you. Before wheme outed his result he had a strong scumread on you. The play-related reasoning for his scumread on you became weaker when people were thinking that you were clear. When people started doubting the clear, his scumread on you strengthened again.

Basically, I think he was attacking the validity of wheme's claim/result/inno (and not, say, trying to get dreal to out his results) because if wheme's result isn't a strong clear on you, town!dunk-that-is-widely-scumread is still a viable mislynch option, whereas if you're clear for role reasons, town!dunk is no longer a viable mislynch.

I also think that fish works with mcmenno quite well; his progression on mcmenno is basically a generic scumread coupled with avoiding comment on gork's read coupled with actively trying to divert the wagon away from him back onto you once people started doubting the strength of wheme's inno.

VOTE: Fish

L-2

--s

[Wormhole]

For me, yeah.

[Wormhole]

were trying to sort through the {you/fish/mcmenno/dreal/gork} pool

Note that you're not in this. I think I'm taking Gork out of this and Dunk too.

Imo it's pretty much fish or dreal, much more likely to be fish.

[Wormhole]

Was this directed at me?

No, that was at Whemestar but I'm much less annoyed at quickhammer without claim after seeing the flip.

I'll do another re-read but I'm happy with our vote on Fishy.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Gork started the McMenno train. Why do you think he bussed there? McMenno wasn't drawing a lot of attention before Gork put him in the limelight and Gork just didn't seem like a likely lynch at that point either.

-BV

[Wormhole]

Is Shy some kind of bread?

-BV

[Wormhole]

K, so I guess the gladiate (@Fish: if a gladiator targets someone, the only two valid voting targets that phase are the gladiator and the target) is fake, but that doesn't really change much for me tbh; I still think that Fish is most likely scum here.

elaboration on the scumread below; spoilered for length.

Spoiler:

The argument against me here can (I think) be summarised as:
1) I'm a very good fit for scum with McMenno yesterday
2) I'm in a small PoE pool.

I kinda want to add:

3) Your progression on Dunk is kinda bad as I discussed before.

4) In general your reads/opinions are very malleable and change to match mine/BV/Fire's , and you haven't really had any really strong/firm opinions since you've replaced in.

Here's an example:

- Look at Gork more. He's the person who I really think should be in your small scumpools and isn't.

Gork started the McMenno train. Why do you think he bussed there? McMenno wasn't drawing a lot of attention before Gork put him in the limelight and Gork just didn't seem like a likely lynch at that point either.

-BV

That's a good point. Gork!scum bussing there does seem kinda unlikely - he didn't desperately need the towncred, and had other easy places to vote.

You've actually done this sort of thing *a lot*, and I can pull up other examples if you need me to.

universal townreads like dunkers

I'm not entirely sure when this became a thing?

- Not lynch me today (hint: lynch dunk instead)

Or what changed between these two posts?

This feels subtly PR-fishing to me, coupled with trying to ensure that a night actually happens - and that you're alive for it. And tbh, I'm kinda confused why it matters if you die via lynch/vig/shy-ness? Like, it's presumably 8-1 right now, so we're not anywhere close to LYLO, and we have a pretty big margin of error.

--s