Open 705: Polygamist - Game Over

[momo]

Spoiler: mathdino self iso

LITERALLY A CASE ON MY OWN PROGRESSION, NOT DOING THIS AGAIN

I don't know about claiming lovers yet. I'm gonna check game history and see what They Who Came Before Us thought on the matter.

I was young and naive on post 6. At this point, I'd only read the setup. Hadn't done any serious reading.

Yeah okay so NO ONE CLAIM YOUR LOVERS YET

The wiki suggests that claiming early is bad but I'm still working through the literature on the subject

Another interesting thing is that lynching completely randomly actually benefits town. The problem is that random lynches don't happen because scum won't let it. I would actually be done with creating a townbloc that follows a dice tag in the thread. Would give us a 60% chance.

Not voting because it'll be obvious that whomever I vote isn't my lover.

At this point, I had ONLY read the entire wiki page. You can see this because I'm literally just parroting statements that the wiki page made. See for yourself.

1. Let's not play to win, so to speak. Let's just play to play a battle of wits. So, no random lynching.
2. How could claiming lovers not help? Au contraire, since it's a nigthless setup, I think it's our biggest weapon here. If we claim lovers, we force the scum into pairs to begin with. Furthermore, if we have anyone super strong (I don't necessarily know if we do), if scum pressures their partner, it makes it pretty obvious. So, scum has to be careful about pressuring 2 slots in the case of one player being spot-on or whatever.

1. I basically ignored this as much as possible because I disagree with that philosophy.
2. This was slightly convincing to me but I wanted to read up first.

Also, by claiming lovers, it lowers the pool for scum to bus from, and lower the amount of chaos we'd have.

This was bullshit. Feel free to ask me why but yeah.

Counterproposal. Through the day, we'll probably as a town come together on a townread of someone. That person will then dice roll 2 lynches that don't include themselves or their lover. In effect, we'll be playing kingmaker. If we're right about the king we elect being town, we then have an exactly 70% chance of winning by sheeping them.

This is me trying to come up with a compromise idea. The kingmaker idea came from me saying "Okay, they want a battle of wits, and townhunting is, to some extent, a battle of wits, so the townie can just rando the lynches". I was not, at this point in time, as nihilistic as I later became.

My quick scan sees dice rolling as a tactic suggested. I appreciate the idea behind it but how to know that mafia aren’t loading the dice?
Also I kind of feel that using dice to decide goes against the spirit of the game.

The first point was bad because dice tags (remember that I came up with this idea knowing dice tags existed). Mafia cannot load dice.
I ignored the second point.

I propose electing someone we think is town to roll the dice and vote for someone other than them and their lover. So yes it would involve them loading the dice but they wouldn't be able to control the dice. No one would.

This is me formalising my idea on the philosophy that *I* can't the roll the dice because I could be scum, but it shows very good faith to have *someone else* roll the dice. My fatal flaw was that I started this too early, before we could locktown anyone by playing the game. Once I suggested this, I was doomed to pretty much have shit reads (because saying this changed the game).

wassup

happy new years
bye

i support claiming lovers
tl from diamond

I obviously had no reason to townread any of this.

Yes. While I'm sure they haven't already decided, if they have one really really townread person and one scumread person, then the TR person could take charge and say "I'm lovers with [scumread person] so if you think that they're scum, you think I'm scum". It's to our advantage to claim ASAP.

Let's not dice-lynch.

The first point is what finally convinced me that claiming lovers was important. So congrats on that I guess. I also realised that scum probably coordinated claims in the PT. Which is probably bullshit since half the scum probably wasn't even there.
And I didn't really give a shit that you didn't wanna dice lynch.

Yeah that's fair. I guess me claiming doesn't really benefit me or town, but scum claiming does, so it's best to set a precedent. Yo I'm lovers with Amrororawrachurrochora. Your turn?

Also why not dice lynch?

Here I finally claim because your claim logic was solid, even if it provides a marginal advantage. I asked if you wanted to not dicelynch on the hopes that you had a better strategy.

Also, fuck dice lynches. This is a game of "skill" and a battle of "wits". Dice have no place in this.

You did not. This is where our battle began.

Hello
Happy new years
Lets random lynch, mathdinos counterproposal seems interesting
Idk if we should claim lovers or not

The first post that wasn't from me or your slot. By this point I was lowkey in kingmaker mode, so I was on the lookout for things to townread.
My gut said to townread this because he agreed. But then I realised he might be dumb scum (not inconsistent with RedFlavor) who didn't realise that my idea was good and that random lynching would actually likely fuck him over.

I wonder if we'd have a higher chance of winning this game by playing kingmaker then, where the king we make straight up chooses the lynch straight up. We model open games by assuming random lynch; the flaw being that lynches aren't random, and in a game with such a high percentage of scum, lynching scum is unlikely. I wonder if we'd have better odds trying to townhunt and sheep. Will come up with a model and get back to this.

This is the point at which I was also beginning my Econ 101 class. You can kinda tell. I'm also, once again, just repeating things the wiki said.
You can see the beginnings of my "easier to townhunt than scumhunt" strategy. The idea at the time was that it's far more likely for the town to agree on a towniest member and be right, than it is for the "town" to agree on a scummiest person and be right. Doing this was a political move in an attempt to counteract the scum's weight.

So I go off to actually factcheck my own kingmaker strategy.

random lynch GOAT

also I'm lovers with someone I forgot which makes me lock town

also never lynching amrochora even if she is a wolf

sheepsaysmeep replaces jzhenson93

ah ok it was literally this guy

hi sheep

^i unironically believe this shit at face value and will in return also never lynch toranaga/sheep

Great progress on the scumhunting front, folks.

I on the other hand have made no progress in modeling kingmaking polygamist vs normal lynch polygamist. See you next year.

FINALLY my first townread. I townread this slot because I interpret "I forgot who I'm lovers with" as a slight townslip. Plus hypothetical scum buddying up to my slot read as a very very bad idea if they knew my slot was town. I recognised that doing this mutual townread would be scummy as shit but it was also my best lead.

You'll notice that I came up with a townread before I came up with a kingmaker idea. My intent at first was to PoE the scum by townhunting.

An argument that jzhenson and my slot are both town: Scum loves to whine to the mod when one of their members straight up doesn't show up. These fuckers didn't post a single thing in their PTs (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong Tora) for 3 fucking days and the mod still started the game. Locktown.

VOTE: Lalendra as good a PoE vote as any

Here I came up with another reason that the 2 guys who got replaced on gamestart are town.
Since I was still into a random lynch idea, I just arbitrarily'd someone who wasn't here yet.

I'm only now reading the game properly, and for some reason I thought you were lovers with pisskop just realised you're the replacement and lovers with amrochora.

I thought we should all claim, because then you can read one or both heads of a lover claim as scummy and that's where you wanna lynch.

1. More townslippiness.
2. The second argument makes no sense at all and reads as VI town coming up with an original idea. I ask myself, does this make sense as something scum would say?
No, it has 0 utility. Asking everyone else to claim doesn't help scum.

I kinda like this game now lol

I expect it to be filled with replacements if it takes too long though

Oh how wrong you were on point 1 and how right you were on point 2.

LOL

there's a good chance both amrochora and manrock forgot all about this game

it's too bad, I like playing with them

also I believe you too. game highly POE'd down already imo

Again buddies up to my slot (low utility as scum) and then intends to use it for PoE. PoEing my slot out of the lynchpool doesn't help scum at all.

VOTE: cy

no one showing up :'(

The first RVS vote by a slot I trusted.

VOTE: cy

Sheeping sheep. Sheep me!

Because I wanted to make a truly arbitrary vote that would also be arbitrary to you guys, I couldn't just random vote someone myself. Because I could be scum choosing to vote town.
In order to show my good faith and true belief in my strat, I had to sheep someone else I was townreading (already was) on whoever they vote. My honest willingness to vote literally anyone that sheep voted would, I hoped, help convince you guys I was town, and thus my strategy was in good faith.
Note that my theory of this setup is that while in a normal game, mafia doesn't care who we lynch while town does? In this game, mafia heavily cares who we lynch while town doesn't (or shouldn't). I hoped it would become obvious that I wouldn't put the lynch in some total rando's hands if I were scum (because we could just accidentally lynch my partners, or the person I sheep could decide to lynch me/Amro).
The reason I sheeped sheep is because sheep voted first. That's it. Otherwise I'd have said sheep Tora.

Note: I'm gonna repeat this. Yes, I said I intentionally acted in a way to convince you guys I was town. Do not take this out of context. I specifically did that because a common Open Queue trope is someone breaking the setup and the rest of the town being like WELL WHAT IF YOU'RE SCUM MANIPULATING THE POWER ROLES or WHAT IF YOUR STRATEGY SECRETLY BENEFITS SCUM. I did not want to deal with this bullshit. Unfortunately, I had to anyway.

Well sheep's vote is equivalent to a dice lynch so why not compromise and join the locktown wagon?

This is why I liked RVS. Don't bitch to me about theory or why we use RVS. I wanted to use it to generate a truly random vote from my perspective. The ONLY way that vote wasn't totally random from my perspective is if the scumteam was me/lover/sheep/Tora, which I figured people would think is crazy. Lo and behold, the people who started proposing that 20 years later are exactly the people that have always been in my lynchpool.

You have achieved status.....hard core town read!

[Mathdino]

I'll give you even more, because I seriously don't want questions on this shit.

Tora was my very first townread. I believe this makes that read more worthwhile. Over the course of the next few pages (read them) I came to a lowkey townread on RedFlavor/manrock but no other real reads. I thought about how everything I was reading was basically null and realised that this setup is shit for me because I scumhunt at my best with flips.

I believe that more time without lynching gives scum more time to manipulate me or learn to figure out what I townread people for. I literally asked the mod to SHORTEN the deadline so we can actually get a flip. With the exception of that early townread, almost all of my tells became null over the next 20 pages, as I realised that people were figuring out what I might read them for and thus scum would act in such a way as to get townread.

The moment I suggested a strategy of "Let's find the towniest townie" and "Let's PoE" I had to start nulling things. Every scum would want to be in that PoE block. And there's no accountability for that hypothetical PoE block because 2 lynches and we lose.

So that's why my reads haven't budged. I'm also afraid that my read was originally right (often my earliest strongest read is right) and any discussion with you guys would lead to either
A. You guys manipulating me out of my read
or
B. You guys manipulating EVERYONE ELSE out of my read. And I needed another pair that I believe is town and that everyone else believes is town in order for my strategy to be manipulated.

Edit: I don't intend you to, sheep.

[DiamondSentinel]

Spoiler: mathdino self iso

LITERALLY A CASE ON MY OWN PROGRESSION, NOT DOING THIS AGAIN

I don't know about claiming lovers yet. I'm gonna check game history and see what They Who Came Before Us thought on the matter.

I was young and naive on post 6. At this point, I'd only read the setup. Hadn't done any serious reading.

Yeah okay so NO ONE CLAIM YOUR LOVERS YET

The wiki suggests that claiming early is bad but I'm still working through the literature on the subject

Another interesting thing is that lynching completely randomly actually benefits town. The problem is that random lynches don't happen because scum won't let it. I would actually be done with creating a townbloc that follows a dice tag in the thread. Would give us a 60% chance.

Not voting because it'll be obvious that whomever I vote isn't my lover.

At this point, I had ONLY read the entire wiki page. You can see this because I'm literally just parroting statements that the wiki page made. See for yourself.

1. Let's not play to win, so to speak. Let's just play to play a battle of wits. So, no random lynching.
2. How could claiming lovers not help? Au contraire, since it's a nigthless setup, I think it's our biggest weapon here. If we claim lovers, we force the scum into pairs to begin with. Furthermore, if we have anyone super strong (I don't necessarily know if we do), if scum pressures their partner, it makes it pretty obvious. So, scum has to be careful about pressuring 2 slots in the case of one player being spot-on or whatever.

1. I basically ignored this as much as possible because I disagree with that philosophy.
2. This was slightly convincing to me but I wanted to read up first.

Also, by claiming lovers, it lowers the pool for scum to bus from, and lower the amount of chaos we'd have.

This was bullshit. Feel free to ask me why but yeah.

Counterproposal. Through the day, we'll probably as a town come together on a townread of someone. That person will then dice roll 2 lynches that don't include themselves or their lover. In effect, we'll be playing kingmaker. If we're right about the king we elect being town, we then have an exactly 70% chance of winning by sheeping them.

This is me trying to come up with a compromise idea. The kingmaker idea came from me saying "Okay, they want a battle of wits, and townhunting is, to some extent, a battle of wits, so the townie can just rando the lynches". I was not, at this point in time, as nihilistic as I later became.

My quick scan sees dice rolling as a tactic suggested. I appreciate the idea behind it but how to know that mafia aren’t loading the dice?
Also I kind of feel that using dice to decide goes against the spirit of the game.

The first point was bad because dice tags (remember that I came up with this idea knowing dice tags existed). Mafia cannot load dice.
I ignored the second point.

I propose electing someone we think is town to roll the dice and vote for someone other than them and their lover. So yes it would involve them loading the dice but they wouldn't be able to control the dice. No one would.

This is me formalising my idea on the philosophy that *I* can't the roll the dice because I could be scum, but it shows very good faith to have *someone else* roll the dice. My fatal flaw was that I started this too early, before we could locktown anyone by playing the game. Once I suggested this, I was doomed to pretty much have shit reads (because saying this changed the game).

wassup

happy new years
bye

i support claiming lovers
tl from diamond

I obviously had no reason to townread any of this.

Yes. While I'm sure they haven't already decided, if they have one really really townread person and one scumread person, then the TR person could take charge and say "I'm lovers with [scumread person] so if you think that they're scum, you think I'm scum". It's to our advantage to claim ASAP.

Let's not dice-lynch.

The first point is what finally convinced me that claiming lovers was important. So congrats on that I guess. I also realised that scum probably coordinated claims in the PT. Which is probably bullshit since half the scum probably wasn't even there.
And I didn't really give a shit that you didn't wanna dice lynch.

Yeah that's fair. I guess me claiming doesn't really benefit me or town, but scum claiming does, so it's best to set a precedent. Yo I'm lovers with Amrororawrachurrochora. Your turn?

Also why not dice lynch?

Here I finally claim because your claim logic was solid, even if it provides a marginal advantage. I asked if you wanted to not dicelynch on the hopes that you had a better strategy.

Also, fuck dice lynches. This is a game of "skill" and a battle of "wits". Dice have no place in this.

You did not. This is where our battle began.

Hello
Happy new years
Lets random lynch, mathdinos counterproposal seems interesting
Idk if we should claim lovers or not

The first post that wasn't from me or your slot. By this point I was lowkey in kingmaker mode, so I was on the lookout for things to townread.
My gut said to townread this because he agreed. But then I realised he might be dumb scum (not inconsistent with RedFlavor) who didn't realise that my idea was good and that random lynching would actually likely fuck him over.

I wonder if we'd have a higher chance of winning this game by playing kingmaker then, where the king we make straight up chooses the lynch straight up. We model open games by assuming random lynch; the flaw being that lynches aren't random, and in a game with such a high percentage of scum, lynching scum is unlikely. I wonder if we'd have better odds trying to townhunt and sheep. Will come up with a model and get back to this.

This is the point at which I was also beginning my Econ 101 class. You can kinda tell. I'm also, once again, just repeating things the wiki said.
You can see the beginnings of my "easier to townhunt than scumhunt" strategy. The idea at the time was that it's far more likely for the town to agree on a towniest member and be right, than it is for the "town" to agree on a scummiest person and be right. Doing this was a political move in an attempt to counteract the scum's weight.

So I go off to actually factcheck my own kingmaker strategy.

random lynch GOAT

also I'm lovers with someone I forgot which makes me lock town

also never lynching amrochora even if she is a wolf

sheepsaysmeep replaces jzhenson93

ah ok it was literally this guy

hi sheep

^i unironically believe this shit at face value and will in return also never lynch toranaga/sheep

Great progress on the scumhunting front, folks.

I on the other hand have made no progress in modeling kingmaking polygamist vs normal lynch polygamist. See you next year.

FINALLY my first townread. I townread this slot because I interpret "I forgot who I'm lovers with" as a slight townslip. Plus hypothetical scum buddying up to my slot read as a very very bad idea if they knew my slot was town. I recognised that doing this mutual townread would be scummy as shit but it was also my best lead.

You'll notice that I came up with a townread before I came up with a kingmaker idea. My intent at first was to PoE the scum by townhunting.

An argument that jzhenson and my slot are both town: Scum loves to whine to the mod when one of their members straight up doesn't show up. These fuckers didn't post a single thing in their PTs (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong Tora) for 3 fucking days and the mod still started the game. Locktown.

VOTE: Lalendra as good a PoE vote as any

Here I came up with another reason that the 2 guys who got replaced on gamestart are town.
Since I was still into a random lynch idea, I just arbitrarily'd someone who wasn't here yet.

I'm only now reading the game properly, and for some reason I thought you were lovers with pisskop just realised you're the replacement and lovers with amrochora.

I thought we should all claim, because then you can read one or both heads of a lover claim as scummy and that's where you wanna lynch.

1. More townslippiness.
2. The second argument makes no sense at all and reads as VI town coming up with an original idea. I ask myself, does this make sense as something scum would say?
No, it has 0 utility. Asking everyone else to claim doesn't help scum.

I kinda like this game now lol

I expect it to be filled with replacements if it takes too long though

Oh how wrong you were on point 1 and how right you were on point 2.

LOL

there's a good chance both amrochora and manrock forgot all about this game

it's too bad, I like playing with them

also I believe you too. game highly POE'd down already imo

Again buddies up to my slot (low utility as scum) and then intends to use it for PoE. PoEing my slot out of the lynchpool doesn't help scum at all.

VOTE: cy

no one showing up :'(

The first RVS vote by a slot I trusted.

VOTE: cy

Sheeping sheep. Sheep me!

Because I wanted to make a truly arbitrary vote that would also be arbitrary to you guys, I couldn't just random vote someone myself. Because I could be scum choosing to vote town.
In order to show my good faith and true belief in my strat, I had to sheep someone else I was townreading (already was) on whoever they vote. My honest willingness to vote literally anyone that sheep voted would, I hoped, help convince you guys I was town, and thus my strategy was in good faith.
Note that my theory of this setup is that while in a normal game, mafia doesn't care who we lynch while town does? In this game, mafia heavily cares who we lynch while town doesn't (or shouldn't). I hoped it would become obvious that I wouldn't put the lynch in some total rando's hands if I were scum (because we could just accidentally lynch my partners, or the person I sheep could decide to lynch me/Amro).
The reason I sheeped sheep is because sheep voted first. That's it. Otherwise I'd have said sheep Tora.

Note: I'm gonna repeat this. Yes, I said I intentionally acted in a way to convince you guys I was town. Do not take this out of context. I specifically did that because a common Open Queue trope is someone breaking the setup and the rest of the town being like WELL WHAT IF YOU'RE SCUM MANIPULATING THE POWER ROLES or WHAT IF YOUR STRATEGY SECRETLY BENEFITS SCUM. I did not want to deal with this bullshit. Unfortunately, I had to anyway.

Well sheep's vote is equivalent to a dice lynch so why not compromise and join the locktown wagon?

This is why I liked RVS. Don't bitch to me about theory or why we use RVS. I wanted to use it to generate a truly random vote from my perspective. The ONLY way that vote wasn't totally random from my perspective is if the scumteam was me/lover/sheep/Tora, which I figured people would think is crazy. Lo and behold, the people who started proposing that 20 years later are exactly the people that have always been in my lynchpool.

You have achieved status.....hard core town read!

Which is where I'm conflicted.

My gut says hardcore town. Everything's genuine. But if they're truly only going to sheep sheep, then I can't allow either them or sheep to get to tomorrow. Because I'm not convinced that Math is willing to open their mind to the possibility (probability) that sheep is scum. Also, the fact that I just can't consciously believe that they could possibly be town.

But at some point, I'll probably just give up and let my gut take over.

I'll give you even more, because I seriously don't want questions on this shit.

Tora was my very first townread. I believe this makes that read more worthwhile. Over the course of the next few pages (read them) I came to a lowkey townread on RedFlavor/manrock but no other real reads. I thought about how everything I was reading was basically null and realised that this setup is shit for me because I scumhunt at my best with flips.

I believe that more time without lynching gives scum more time to manipulate me or learn to figure out what I townread people for. I literally asked the mod to SHORTEN the deadline so we can actually get a flip. With the exception of that early townread, almost all of my tells became null over the next 20 pages, as I realised that people were figuring out what I might read them for and thus scum would act in such a way as to get townread.

The moment I suggested a strategy of "Let's find the towniest townie" and "Let's PoE" I had to start nulling things. Every scum would want to be in that PoE block. And there's no accountability for that hypothetical PoE block because 2 lynches and we lose.

So that's why my reads haven't budged. I'm also afraid that my read was originally right (often my earliest strongest read is right) and any discussion with you guys would lead to either
A. You guys manipulating me out of my read
or
B. You guys manipulating EVERYONE ELSE out of my read. And I needed another pair that I believe is town and that everyone else believes is town in order for my strategy to be manipulated.

Edit: I don't intend you to, sheep.

If you want to avoid people manipulating you, read the posts without reading who posted it. Your subconscious will sort through things way better than you can, because you're peppered with emotion. The gut is just naturally good at determining whether to trust people. When you find a good post, look at the name and amend your reads.

Of course, this could be a crock of shit. I'm spitballing here.

[Mathdino]

Yeah I mean. I don't doubt that what you're telling me is exactly identical to what you'd tell me as town. And you I think you at this point believe that what I'm telling you is also what I'd tell you as town. We're at a playstyle impasse.

I mean would you be more comfortable if I promised you that against all my wishes I'll just lynch sheep/Tora tomorrow after you die? My issue is that I've already established myself as locking sheep as town, and breaking that promise would fully give everyone the right to lynch me for that.

I'd

lynch me for that. I'm not in the business of doing things that literally make me deserve a lynch under my own principles.

[DiamondSentinel]

Yeah I mean. I don't doubt that what you're telling me is exactly identical to what you'd tell me as town. And you I think you at this point believe that what I'm telling you is also what I'd tell you as town. We're at a playstyle impasse.

I mean would you be more comfortable if I promised you that against all my wishes I'll just lynch sheep/Tora tomorrow after you die? My issue is that I've already established myself as locking sheep as town, and breaking that promise would fully give everyone the right to lynch me for that.

I'd

lynch me for that. I'm not in the business of doing things that literally make me deserve a lynch under my own principles.

You could just not lynch me. I mean, you admit here that you think I'd say the exact same thing town or scum. So why are you attempting to lynch me? Is it because I've been at odds with your 2 biggest efforts here?

[Mathdino]

You could just not lynch me. I mean, you admit here that you think I'd say the exact same thing town or scum. So why are you attempting to lynch me? Is it because I've been at odds with your 2 biggest efforts here?

This current conversation you've been having with me, and the last 5 billion convos you've been having with me about theory, are not why I or my partner is scumreading you.

It's kind of a utility lynch. I don't believe, at this point, that you'll vote with the townbloc I'm personally relying on for LyLo. I believe your read on me has been too set in stone for that. So assuming you're town, if I don't lynch you today, then I have to 100% find the scumteam today. And my strategy doesn't have any way to reliably find scum on D1. The point is to aggregate D1 and D2.

Yes, it's lowkey OMGUS, but here's an analogy.
You're a townie with 1 scum left. 5 players. One player who is a little scummy by association has been gunning for you the whole game. You have little reason to believe they'll change their mind in LyLo. Furthermore, you know for sure that if they're town, scum will leave them alive and let them lynch you in LyLo.

You can't lynch scum if they're alive tomorrow unless scum happens to be them and you can convince the remaining townie. But the player has a chance at convincing that townie.

So you prepare yourself for LyLo by lynching that player, praying to god they're scum (and they are scummy) and then saying, well, I had to lynch someone only for them to flip town, I'd rather it be them. This at least puts you in an okay spot later on.

I'm honestly not sure any of the above is even town indicative. I haven't thought through it but it's possibly also scum's ideal strategy if they were in my slot.

We're at a really really weird impasse.

I assume you want me to lynch sheep/Tora today.

[MathBlade]

I guess what we are looking for is the set of interactions between declared groups that seem suspicious. If you think of every player group as a hydra, we're looking for the two hydra's that have shady interactions.

So with that in mind I think that the mass claim is probably for the best, and in flagrant disregard of what my lover said earlier, I'll go ahead and declare that I'm paired with DiamonSentinel. Interestingly we both independently hated on the dice routine.

In our topic we basically discussed what the setup was because apparently neither of us read it before signing up, then freaking out when we realised that we had no idea how to scumhunt in this scenario, and then to claim or not claim. We decided we'd just go with the flow, so, here I am, flowing away.

That kinda sounds gross :V

You mean here?

Why did you claim despite your claim that your lover suggesting you hide it?

I told Sky to hide it because Sky was an unknown in my strategy. If I could control what they did, then that would remove a wild-card from my "team's" actions.

Then why not explain the entire plan to your partner?

That’s what I am not following.

It feels like Sky just made up something and y’all are scrambling to justify it.

Furthermore do you have a townread on Lalendra or cytheflyguy?

[MathBlade]

it's not against the rules i think but it's frowned upon

because most of the time it lowers town winrate by nulling any associations and also random lynching creates a low winrate in general

i've never suggested it before

besides even if the dice tag was against the rules you could just randomise based on the stockmarket or some shit
or the national debt

It’s more the provable randomness that is the problem.

It creates a lot of funky potentials for alignment confirms.

Kinda the same reason timesramps are bad too. You can confirm you had a PT with a player (unless you are a really skilled faker), generally things gotta stay in thread unless expressly permitted otherwise.

Furthermore don’t ever do what you did to me at the start of my replace in ever again. Seriously don’t punk your mason buddy like that.

[MathBlade]

Dino

i've done a completely accurate political analysis of the gamestate and if you and i are in lylo together, you know we're just gonna tear each other apart

so yeah let's do it now

Well that is almost true. We'll agree to disagree about the accurate political climate chart because you could only truly do this if you knew the alignments of players, and we won't bother with the 'well only scum could possibly know that' train because we're not children.

Regarding Cy/Lalendra, consider my situation for just a second. Just a second!

Sky sees Dino massively favoring a slot (Sheep) for no reason, and vice versa.
Sky sees a slot with 3/4 of that psuedoteam all hardlocking a slot because 'random'.
Sky asks players what do.
Those players switch to Sky.
???

I think anybody with any reasonable amount of knowledge of the game state - or actually, a reasonable knowledge about how the game of mafia works - would want to question this. I also think anybody would question 'wait why would players who are barely posting, jump in to the thread JUST to switch their vote to the next popular bandwagon'.

So the reason I say that 'is almost true' is because even at this point I as a player can realistically change my reads and do interesting or strange things, even if we wind up going to LYLO with both you and I standing.
Meaning if you and I are just town raging there is an even chance at some point I will figure it out and go 'Wait a minute, what is player x even doing?'
However I don't believe that is true of the Dino slot, because as you say, you have 'analysed the political climate' and you also confessed that your partner and you are in hip synch for a random (not actually random btw) and arbitrary lynch.

In short your predicating that Cy must be scum if I am scum, and that Cy must be scum because he wasn't hammered yet. But there were six player slots that barely existed that could have hammered and switching it over to me for no reason better than you haven't got your hammer yet is, actually, fucking bonkers. In a regular game of mafia we call that 'opportunistic voting' and that is a scum alignment tell.

Why did you write about yourself in the third person when it’s supposed to be from your perspective? *eyebrow twitch*

I am still reading I had a loooooong day at work but based on what I have read you and Diamond look inconsistent as fuck.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

DiamondSentinel (5) - sheepsaysmeep, cytheflyguy, Mathdino, Mathblade, RedFlavor
Mathdino (2) - Sky_Paladin, DiamondSentinel
cytheflyguy (1) - Toranaga
RedFlavor (1) - momo
momo (1) - Lalendra

Not Voting (2) - Kop, hyung

Kop has been prodded

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline for day one is January 25th 7PM PST in (expired on 2018-01-25 19:00:00)

[sheepsaysmeep]

VOTE: dia

L-1

[Toranaga]

intent to hammer

[MathBlade]

I guess there is one more thing. I think that town players ordinarily are not super confident in their reads. For example, I'm not town reading anybody. The strongest scum leads I have are Maths and Sheep, and this fundamentally began as a simple question 'Why are you guys townreading each other?' and went from there. So if at some point, Maths/Sheep revisit this and/or provide credible reasoning, a reasonable chunk of my push does dissolve. Because I'm aware of this I have at least floated the idea that scum may indeed be outside of the Maths/Sheep slots and am considering the possibility of yes, Cy/Lalendra could be scum, yes, Red/Hyrule could be scum, etc etc. I also do see indecisiveness in some other players, and to be absolutely fair one of them is Sheep, who has backflipped on their reads a couple of times in ways that I hate, but town aren't naturally confident because every town player has that secret nugget of doubt somewhere buried in their cold dark heart.

From time to time I expect to see traces of that nugget emerging and that's what I'm looking for when I town read players. I think townslips can be manufactured and scumslips can be misattributed, so I usually don't rely on them because often times I am wrong.

What I am interested in are sudden, unexplained behaviors - usually votes - or players influencing the game. The second camp I want to know can I trust this player because if somebody else has done all the hard work then I don't have to.

So when I see a player like Maths who specifically wants to avoid attributing themselves to any one thing, and yet is super hard behind a lynch of a certain slot - and uses an abstract case such as mathematics, or a WIFOMY case like lining-up-lynches - I don't see that towny nugget of doubt there. When Dino refused to look at sheep, it's because there's no need for him to do it - he already knows Sheep's alignment, and everybody who disagrees with him must be wrong. Not the intuitive "Oh, I see a player doesn't understand why I think x, let me explain to them why it is so", but actual totally ignoring that he was even asked, and even haranguing on me that I didn't ask properly as a justification for not doing it. This sense of entitlement, that they deserve a please and thank you, doesn't come from town.

These players are confident. They know exactly what they are trying to do. That confidence doesn't come from town who thinks they've caught scum. It comes from players who don't want to be questioned and don't want to have to explain themselves. Dino will happily engage on math discussion and talk with his partner or cut walls with me but he will literally not engage with any player in any meaningful way about game state and the reads.

I guess I'm having a hard time seeing that coming from town.

First of all,

My case is not abstract. Abstract math would put everyone to sleep.

I asked simple questions and derived at simple answers. You’re not attacking the points you are attacking me.

And do you know me? As town or scum I get pretty confident especially in lylo now that I have taken a game and started it up and you don’t push inactive slots to get reads instead you judge me before you know me.

You can disrupt my argument or idgaf.

[RedFlavor]

shit im not reading that

[Mathdino]

the fuck is that L-1, sheep
that reaction test is so useless in this environment

someone actually put them at L-1, they and cy/Lalendra have both given no indication in terms of "who should we lynch tomorrow"

if they're town, it's important to my personal strategy that they tell me things i can trust later

[MathBlade]

i mean honestly i thought "hating arbitrary lynch" was lowkey a scumtell but then my partner did it
so fuck me right

lol fuck you sideways

idk still think it's cy;lalenda and sky;theother dude

also I'm pretty drunk rn, I don't use to drink so when I do I get wasted

go join another open game, this is basically not even a real game

i'd be so depressed if this was the only game i was playing

my open is queuing up once Masons and Monks hammers

and yeah that's our theory too so yeah

what do you think of kop/momo/red/manrock?

I believe redflavour's description of their mason thread because I 'know' manrock and the things redflavour said match with how I think manrock would act in the mason thread.

I believe kop;momo for much thinner reasons, but I think the timestamp mentions, while fakeable, are pretty sound reason to believe they're town

Wow time stamps too...I was using that as an example what NOT to do.

This game smh.

[Toranaga]

the fuck is that L-1, sheep
that reaction test is so useless in this environment

someone actually put them at L-1, they and cy/Lalendra have both given no indication in terms of "who should we lynch tomorrow"

if they're town, it's important to my personal strategy that they tell me things i can trust later

lol I believed it

[MathBlade]

shit im not reading that

Ditto but I know Dino is town rotflmbo

[sheepsaysmeep]

wait i actually forgot i was voting dia already lmao

[Mathdino]

Furthermore don’t ever do what you did to me at the start of my replace in ever again. Seriously don’t punk your mason buddy like that.

How did this hurt you?

I did that to try to reaction test Math/Math/sheep/Tora for the benefit of those thinking that's the team. The fact that I specifically scrambled those teams and none others is indicative of that.

[MathBlade]

I am just curious. Diamond Sentinel has played with me enough to read me.

Yet he only talks Dino. Why? Because Diamond is scum.

[MathBlade]

Furthermore don’t ever do what you did to me at the start of my replace in ever again. Seriously don’t punk your mason buddy like that.

How did this hurt you?

I did that to try to reaction test Math/Math/sheep/Tora for the benefit of those thinking that's the team. The fact that I specifically scrambled those teams and none others is indicative of that.

I’ve been a part of games where mods mess shit up.

Just don’t again ever. Like please.

Don’t skirt the spirit please.

[Mathdino]

Tora, if you put Dia at L-1, we can just speedlynch anyone who quickhammers.

The pressure is importante.

@momo:

HURT: DiamondSentinel
you're welcome

[hyung]

Please don't lynch until I've caught up and figure things out. From what I can tell we have a lot of time, but only 2 chances.

I'm sorry I wasn't here earlier but real life issues came up. I'll drop by again in the next 12 hours, most likely.

[Mathdino]

Request replacement on Kop.