Open 704: Switch (Game Over)
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.. because you think the formation of the wagon she contributed to on page 2 is lynch bait.In post 67, Mathdino wrote:But I think Bins is a better wagon- Sauce
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Starting sentences with i often seems to be a scumtell for you.In post 130, Maxous wrote: i'm not convinced she's town but mutant is the first solid scumtell i have here so far
i'm leaning towards an A50 town-read.
i'm actually not convinced on Math being town despite how vocal and aggressive he's being tbh- Sauce
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Let's not think about the hammer yet. We haven't had a decent wagon, which says a lot about this game. Usually town wants to have wagons, but for reasons possibly spanning from being confident with voting elsewhere - to not caring enough about stacking pressure to change a vote - to townies acting like mafia none of the wagons made it past 3 votes.
I'm not confident in Maxous being scum but I want to find out and it would be interesting to see how he reacts to a couple of more votes. Maybe the fact that he's talking about hammers can be attributed to the two votes that are on him, in which case the pressure, albeit modest, has an effect which is a good thing, regardless of his alignment, as he'll be more likely to scum or townslip.
Female block:
Lalendra - is doing the bare minimum to keep the wagon afloat. It is most uncertain whether this is town or scum motivated. My read on her is independent of the posts others have expressed were alignment indicative. Instead I rely solely on whether she keeps up the pressure on Maxous, not at all, or actively maintains an equilibrium somewhere in the middle.
Bins - is not exhibiting any scumhunting, just calm and respectful defense, which doesn't appear to ever lead to finding out the game. But who is scumhunting? Are those who include a superficial read list in their post, then hassle others for reads more likely to be scum or town? How does one do something beneficial to winning the game as town? There are various ways I suppose and Bins is not exactly exhibiting signs thereof. Now that I've called her out on this I'm interested in whether she will or what.
Raya - what others will think of what she'll post next is what's interesting about Raya, rather than what she'll post next. Thismight be scumindicative, and I'll have to make up my mind soon. I wish I could think of some other context to associate her to the parts of this game that I find more interesting and thus alignment indicative. I trust that if she's town she'll come out of her shell and help me help her help me get a read on her.
Elmo - is unique in that she's actively forging a shell, an image of how she ought to be perceived, instead of just letting the raw nature of interaction flow freely. I seem to think she tries to be controlling of how people approach her posts, sort of a wrapping them in instructions, by placing pointers compelling them not to overlook how she does what she does, and I therefore believe she is too shy to let the actions of her posts speak for themselves. Maybe it's because she's aware that they lack the power to be interpreted as townie, and that would be ok since there hasn't been a lot to go by to warrant interesting reactions. However if I'd look forone scum between all 4 female players, I'd sayElmoright now, because she stands out.
Male block:
LeaningScum on Math and Almost. I'd hate to be in the way of them getting universally townread if they are town, but I don't see their posts amounting to more than pseudo scumhunting. They are reluctant to contribute to a good wagon, i.e. Bins' is not a good wagon, because all it will amount to is either more defense or not more defense.
havingfitz - Leaning Scum, doesn't vote
Chip Butty - Scum, is throwing away his vote
Maxous - Scum, is voting mutant but seemingly only to make him notice that they're willing to vote me. Likely bussing and always intended to get off once too much pressure builds up. Would explain why none of the other wagons get traction, i.e. scum are busy exhibiting distancing.
mutant - Scum, mutant, Maxous and some others have made slimy, slithering attempts to express scum leans on me. I don't appreciate that at all, and what I mean by that is instead of offering reasons they simply chose to make it look like it's obvious why I should be considered a lynch candidate. This leaves one with nothing to go by when attempting a defensive maneuver, nor does it contribute to communication. Which means they don't mean to find out more about my alignment.
I advise everyone not to interpret their lack of scumhunting as town incompetence, butscum maliceinstead, and join me on the offensive on Maxous, as he seems to be the more experienced of the two. His general closing-oriented approach to this game needs further investigation via pressure.
Not_mafia - Scum
If the general scumhunting quality of the game improves so will my reads on most of you.- Sauce
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It is only now that I can sympathize with Elmo's vote on you. If she would've had a compelling reason then, like propelling idiotic theories to make them seem to have more merit, as in what you're doing now, she would've had a legit reason to vote. However, she didn't, which is why I think she's the summiest female player atm. It's just something scum would do to a townie as an alternative to lurking. But here I'm not to sure, so I wouldn't change my vote on Maxous for this.In post 195, mutantdevle wrote:
I'm inclined to agree. It makes sense that a SK would scum read everyone since they know that every single person in the game is against them.In post 191, Mathdino wrote:i don't know much about SK hunting but this reads a LOT like SK
Regardless, even if they are not the SK, scum reading everyone (or near enough to it) is in itself rather scummy.
It looks like more of a getting a rise out of a stranger on the internet kind of post, rather than tactical scumplay. Same with Mathdino 'the incinerathor'
Stop imagining things and spare me that most abhorrible of ways of engaging a "fellow player", would be my advice. Your trying to start a flame war with me will not compel me to townread you, because what kind of a player would I be if it would?In post 191, Mathdino wrote:i wouldn't even engage with him at this point
i want to respond in full but it would look like a wall of incinerating basically every sentence
Sauce, player to player, here's some advice on not being shit:
1. Your reads list literally pegs everyone as scum.
2. Who the fuck separates reads lists into male and female, are you a red piller or something, does this seriously change your reads?
i'm not sure if you're actually sexist but a lot of the game is gonna lowkey think you are now
3. Your reads are absolute shit and basically backwards.
4. Half your reads are based off pre-flip associatives when you don't even know anyone's alignments.
5. You shit on everyone for not wagoning when you literally ask people for votes on someone you're not sure about as a reaction test.
hint: you don't reaction test people by saying "how will you react to this?"
6. You seem to think "scumhunting quality" (which is obviously subjective given that you think everyone is shit but you) is indicative of alignment.
yeah i'm done i'm just gonna ignore your post
i don't know much about SK hunting but this reads a LOT like SK
so i guess what i'm saying is mafia should shoot them for acting like SK and being lowkey sexist
While you might imagine yourself incinerating sentences .....
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.. all I'm getting is a mafia try-hard trying to look emotional to underline something that has nothing to do with me. I could ask you to tell me if you see divine prophecies of doom and enlightenment in a Rorschach spot or just a vagina like everyone else, but I don't care. Your wannabe reverse psychology trick won't end in me ignoring
yourposts either.- Sauce
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You imagine me being sexist based on me grouping my reads into male and female players, and then you shit words all around that, is all that needs to be said about your post. Don't call me a child or a lylo-liability, and stop being a bastard.In post 201, Mathdino wrote:
what the actual fuckIn post 199, Sauce wrote:Stop imagining things and spare me that most abhorrible of ways of engaging a "fellow player", would be my advice. Your trying to start a flame war with me will not compel me to townread you, because what kind of a player would I be if it would?
While you might imagine yourself incinerating sentences ... .. .. .. all I'm getting is a mafia try-hard trying to look emotional to underline something that has nothing to do with me. I could ask you to tell me if you see divine prophecies of doom and enlightenment in a Rorschach spot or just a vagina like everyone else, but I don't care. Your wannabe reverse psychology trick won't end in me ignoring your posts either.
is it even possible to be this much of a prick
did a child write this
i'm in awe- Sauce
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I can think of exactly one townie reason for such a reluctance to change votes, and a bunch of anti-town reasons, but the town reason is pretty good: If you random vote and don't change votes until close to lynch, and furthermore say that this is normal for you then there's a high chance of a townie asking you why in a constructive criticism kind of way. Upon which you can get a townread on that person. Do you have a townread on me, because if not I will vote you.In post 235, Lalendra wrote:Again, because that bullet point is all about me putting "pressure" on Maxous, which I was not doing at any point.
"Bare minimum to keep the wagon afloat" - clearly keeping the wagon afloat was not my intention, I placed an RVS vote and just never bothered moving it becauseI generally don't change my votes unless we're close to lynch(Maxous isn't) or I find a better target (I haven't yet).- Sauce
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I'm not impressed by the Raya wagon. I see Almost and Math abandoning their Bins push for something that looks like Raya voting Not_Mafia, and the subsequent omgus vote from N_M (although he voted Raya earlier). Why would this inspire more votes on Raya than any one of them could've tried to gathered by staying on Bins? or moving on to any other player who already had one vote (assuming they are town and want there to be a decent wagon with a lot of traction which is in town's interest). Why is Raya of all people scummier than Maxous for example? And apparently Not_Mafia is sheepworthy, go figure that out.
It should be noted that Chip, Almost and Lalendra haven't been voted yet, and mutant's vote on Mathdino was a short-lived RV. If we are going to attempt to apply the template of scum are likely to interact less with their buddies and stay clear of bussing, then we can assume that these 4 have a higher chance of being scum.
Now if Lalendra's vote on Maxous was an RV and she didn't change it because of a playstyle idiosyncrasy, then I have been the only one at least semi-seriously voting for Maxous as opposed to anyone else for quite some time before fitz recently added his vote after a long abstinence following a RV on Not_Mafia..
What I'm saying is I know I'm town (and if you have even an ever-so-slight townread on me you're with me on this), and if what Lalendra is saying is true and/or she is town as well then Maxous has not been bussed for all this time and should be included in that category: Chip, Almost, Lalendra, Mathdino and more or less Maxous.
One could argue that I have only had a fugitive random vote by Not_Mafia on me until Lalendra voted me, but multiple people have expressed the desire to lynch me, not so much the 5 I've mentioned, which is why you shouldn't include me in that list.
I for one, when I think of especially these names, don't have any reason to regard them as town, so I think I've made up my mind to push in this direction today.- Sauce
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Alright this is really scummy. Why would a townie be less blunt with his or her affirmations than scum. Slimey, slithering scum would try to sugarcoat this to make it look less intimidating or whatever. I'm making pushing for your lynch a priority.In post 256, Almost50 wrote:
All was going well until I read ^this^In post 239, Sauce wrote:Do you have a townread on me, because if not I will vote you.
The quoted could've been stated in so many way that are not as scummy. You could've asked for her reads and then explained why you were voting her if she's not TRing you. or you could've stopped right there without attaching this quote to the post. I'm having a hard time trying to parse the necessity for you to put it this way, and I'm not sure how I should be feeling about it either.
Good question nr 1: Did Almost not say that he wasn't scumreading Raya?In post 250, Bins wrote:If Almost/Math are scumteam they are playing very well but ehhhhh.
Good question nr 2: Would someone like Math be really silent in the scum chat, or would he go flamboyant with plans to con town into thinking him and another buddy cannot be scum together because their behavior is too tightly linked?
I think awkward moments like Math calling a two-vote-strong random vote wagon from page 2 lynchbait, or sweettalking Raya about what a delightful player she is might be amounting due to forced interaction upon having decided to be overly active, and/or even work together a lot.
Again, I don't see any reason to divert my attention away fromLalendra, Chip, Maxous, Math and Almost. I know it would be hard to get a lynch on Math going today but not only would it be likely in my mind that he'd flip scum, it would also be really awesome if we as town could be vigilant and bold enough to punish such flamboyant scum before he can choke us to death in lylo.- Sauce
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What are you doing? You're just adding me and fitz to Bins and say let's lynch here?In post 272, Lalendra wrote:Considering I was already scumreading Fitz and Sauce, I am probably not the best person to answer your question. But I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.
I would like to lynch confscum (I believe Math's claim and am willing to sheep someone I consider to be reliable town PR), but understand that it would be better to wait and see how much info we can get. Weird that all three went silent after Math's proclamation (aside from Fitz's single half-hearted retort) but could be coincidence. I'm hesitant to say we have it figured out but this is a good start.
tl;dr I'm down with voting Fitz, Sauce or Bins, don't particularly care in what order.- Sauce
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I can't right now, reevaluate anything. I just know I wouldn't post like nothing happened to my previous reads if I were Lalendra town.In post 296, Mathdino wrote:Sauce please reevaluate your entire game trajectory if you're gonna post. Where do you stand now?- Sauce
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I don't like how Not_Mafia ignored my #101 postIn post 101, Sauce wrote:Not_Mafia what do you think of Bins? Is she anything like in the game you modded?- Sauce
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Almost50 definitely looks better now, unless he somehow suspected that Bins has been checked, but that would be paranoia, regardless how it turned out to be true.
mutant and Elmo not so much.
Here's an updated version of the linked votecount up until #260 from page 11
@ Sauce:Not_Mafia,Mathdino,Lalendra
Not_Mafia:havingfitz,Bins,Elmo TeH AzN,Raya36
@@ mutantdevle:Elmo TeH AzN,Mathdino,Maxous,Elmo TeH AzN,Maxous,Not_Mafia
@@ Maxous:Lalendra, Sauce,havingfitz
Mathdino:mutandevle
@ Elmo TeH AzN:Mathdino, Bins,Raya36
@ havingfitz:Almost50, Chip Butty
Bins:Mathdino,Maxous,Almost50
@@@@ Raya36:Not_Mafia,Not_Mafia,Mathdino,Almost50,Bins
@ Chip Butty: Raya36
Maxous' short-lived vote on Bins looks bad.- Sauce
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So he's voting Bins, but someone says she scumslipped and he immediately 180s his read and defends her.In post 130, Maxous wrote:I should of stuck with my first vote
VOTE: mutantdevle
he ignored giving any reads or analysis and popped in just to talk theory.
Bins did not "scumslip"
i'm not convinced she's town but mutant is the first solid scumtell i have here so far
i'm leaning towards an A50 town-read.
i'm actually not convinced on Math being town despite how vocal and aggressive he's being tbh- Sauce
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I'm accusing you of not reevaluating your scumreads, not that you read us as scum before Math claimed.In post 302, Lalendra wrote:
Nice try, but if you re-read, the progression is pretty clear. In 214, I voted you for manufactured reads and tryharding. Fitz defended you in 234, to which I responded in 235, 236 and 237, making it pretty clear that I didn't buy his reasons for doing so. Math, who I had been townreading since early game (see 51), hardclaimed a guilty on Bins, which I am inclined to believe. So if you want to say I'm "just adding you and fitz to Bins," when in reality I scumread both of you BEFORE Math brought up his Bins result, that's kind of a blatant misrep.In post 293, Sauce wrote:What are you doing? You're just adding me and fitz to Bins and say let's lynch here?- Sauce
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Well now, turns out she was scum and you missed the chance to tunnel her, or at least form a half-decent wagon even though you had support from two of the most active players in the game. Instead you chose to scumread one and townread the other, as if to divide and conquer, and place your vote back where it initially was even though that wagon lost support, and only Elmo and you remained. And that's where your vote has been for the past 200ish posts.In post 310, Maxous wrote:I'm not gonna lie and agree about a 'scumslip' I don't agree with it.
That's tunneling at best.
BORING!
Either you are the most unlucky and uninspired and boring townie, or you willingly stepped off your scumbuddy and tried to make that wagon as unattractive as possible by attacking the soft spot of Math's offensive on her.- Sauce
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It's not hard to read the setup. Every time someone exhibits ignorance about such trivial and easy-to-lookup stuff a puppy and a kitten somewhere start crying, or does that only happen when scum gets voted, Maxous, hmm?In post 315, Mathdino wrote:Guilty. Could be SK but Bins's scumslip and (seemingly genuine) complete misunderstanding of how SK works indicates mafia to me.- Sauce
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I wouldn't take setup ignorance into consideration when forming reads, nor would I enjoy reading posts centered around it. It's literally the worst thing that can happen in mafia games for me, when I decided for myself to make that investment and inform myself of every intricacy, sooner or later upon encountering the necessity to do so, and someone else doesn't, and wastes game thread space inquiring, instead. I feel cheated. Is my time less valuable than that of others? I feel forsaken when others don't meat a minimum standard like that. I hate it I hate it I hate it oh so muchIn post 319, Mathdino wrote:
To be fair, the setup wording is fairly confusing and took me a few takes to decipher. A lot of people seemed to misunderstand it. Are you saying mutant was faking the misunderstanding too?In post 318, Sauce wrote:
It's not hard to read the setup. Every time someone exhibits ignorance about such trivial and easy-to-lookup stuff a puppy and a kitten somewhere start crying, or does that only happen when scum gets voted, Maxous, hmm?In post 315, Mathdino wrote:Guilty. Could be SK but Bins's scumslip and (seemingly genuine) complete misunderstanding of how SK works indicates mafia to me.
Lol Bins- Sauce
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We could do that, or we could profit from you being alive some more.In post 445, Mathdino wrote:this game has stalled until that lynch tbh
i'd be entirely okay with a quickhammer
someone vote her so Not_Mafia lolhammers
Considering Bins didn't own up to a kill I'm pretty sure she's mafia, because why would the SK hold back on that info. So we should maybe allocate two more days before we end this dayphase.- Sauce
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N_M voted just before Lalendra did, and never unvoted
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Calls Bins scum but lingers on his first voteIn post 134, Chip Butty wrote:First complete readthrough: A50 is town. MD is 70% town. Bins is 70% scum. Mutant could well be SK. Lots of boring setup talk, to which I will now add my two cent's worth:
If I knew right now who the SK is, I would lynch them without a second thought. Even if it is in their interests to work with town for now, they're still more likely to shoot town than scum. We're looking at potentially 3 deaths per day/night cycle, and could lose real quick.
More reads soonish, I hope.
Makes 6 prod-doge-style posts, the last of which states his vote on fitz is bad. All this time he doesn't support Math and Almost.
When they finally switch to Raya it finally piques his interest.In post 219, Chip Butty wrote:@MD: Is there anything much other than meta behind your Raya vote?
@A50: Is there really enough to be sheeping MD?
I'm not necessariky disagreeing, but her ISO doesn't look terrible, given the tine6of year.
This points towards a Bins, Chip, Maxous scumteam. I think we got very very lucky with Math's investigation, and now we need to capitalize on the information we got from Math's subsequent behavior. Chip posted 6 times and did nothing to further the pressure on who he expressed a "70% scum" probability on, and no other scumreads posted, probably because Maxous had already voted Bins, and a double buss would've been unnecessarily cumbersome to transition out of.- Sauce
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Even if Bins flips SK it doesn't clear them, because these are mainly information tells as opposed to associative tells. They didn't think to use the occasion to investigate Bins further because they didn't care. Either of them could be SK if Bins is mafia, too, because however interested mafia or SK might be to find each other it sure isn't the same as a townie who has nothing to go by and a win condition urging the townie to scumhunt right away.- Sauce
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@ Sauce:Not_Mafia,,MathdinoLalendra
Not_Mafia:havingfitz,,BinsElmo TeH AzN,Raya36
@@ mutantdevle:Elmo TeH AzN,,MathdinoMaxous,Elmo TeH AzN,Maxous,Not_Mafia
@@ Maxous:,Sauce,havingfitzLalendra
Mathdino:mutandevle
@ Elmo TeH AzN:,MathdinoBins,Raya36
@ havingfitz:Almost50,Chip Butty
Bins:,MathdinoMaxous,Almost50
@@@@Raya36:Not_Mafia,Not_Mafia,Mathdino,Almost50,Bins
@ Chip Butty:Raya36
Last relevant Day 1 vote state- Sauce
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Since the Mafia didn't know whether the SK was NK or cop/vig immune, they must've felt compelled to shoot the cop. A clever SK, regardless of chosen immunity, would've known this, and would've felt free to dispose of threats.
Raya was actively contributing to the game, and flipped scum had voted her, so a clever SK would've anticipated that Raya would not have been in today's lynching pool.
Who benefits the most from Raya's death?- Sauce
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Now or day1?In post 529, Almost50 wrote:I hard TR N_M
Did you factor in Bins' vote on Raya, and the fact that those townreads on Lalendra were due to a couple of early post addressing random votes mostly?In post 526, mutantdevle wrote:My second post was realising that ofc Raya was shot by the vig since Lalendra was heavily considered town and Raya was considered scum. This is also something that I did not fully process at the time due to tiredness.- Sauce
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It's not in the interest of town to propagate the discussion Almost50 has been busy inciting.
Is this going to amount in scumhunting soon or will it linger on as vig hunting?In post 527, Almost50 wrote:This all looks good .. UNTIL we get to Lalendra. If the Mafia shot the Cop and the SK shot Raya then the Vig shot Lalendra, and I don't see a Town Vig shooting Lalendra over most anyone else.- Sauce
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In post 536, Almost50 wrote:Since he tried to provide some cover for Mathdino after the latter hard claimed Cop.
you can't be serious.- Sauce
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First, I gave you no reason to doubt my comprehension.In post 544, Almost50 wrote:
You're reading but you're not paying attention, are you?In post 535, Sauce wrote:It's not in the interest of town to propagate the discussion Almost50 has been busy inciting.
Is this going to amount in scumhunting soon or will it linger on as vig hunting?In post 527, Almost50 wrote:This all looks good .. UNTIL we get to Lalendra. If the Mafia shot the Cop and the SK shot Raya then the Vig shot Lalendra, and I don't see a Town Vig shooting Lalendra over most anyone else.
I believe you are Town. I believe N_M is Town. I believe Elmo is Town.
One of Chip/mutant is MAFIA. The other could either be Town or the SK.
Maxous/fitz also have one Mafia in them. The other could be the SK or a Townie.
Ho much more details do you want my read list to be? Maybe I should hack the Mod's account and look at the PMs and come back to report who is whom with 100% accuracy??
What I'm trying to do with my "who shot whom" theories is decide whether it's best to lynch Mafia or the SK first, based on whether the SK is immune to the Vig or the Mafia shot. If they're immune to Mafia then the main threat to them is the Vig, so are more likely to shoot TOWN. If they're immune to the Vig shot then they'll try their best to hit Mafia tonight. How hard is it for you to see where I'm coming from?
Second, nobody except the SK knows which immunity he chose, and there's no advantage to be gained from trying to factor that into contemplation with regard to who the next target will be.
Third. I know who mafia is and I don't know who the SK so for me trying to decide which I'd lynch first is not a meaningful line of thought.
I don't see how a townie would townread N_M, except maybe some sort of tone or meta read which you haven't expressed, and I don't find your methods of searching for mafia very effective, because you're not addressing Bins' posts, nor are you scumhunting independently of that.
What reasons did you have for switching to Raya?
@Chip why is Almost obvtown?- Sauce
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Sauce Goon
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Sauce Goon
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Sauce Goon
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Yes. Start scumhunting lest ye be voted.In post 549, Chip Butty wrote:@Sauce: that's a reasonable question. It's jusy an impression, albeit a strong one.
Nobody voted Lalendra d1, and her vote was on you through several VCs before she jumped on the bins wagon. So you're the strongest living link to her. Comments? - Sauce
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