Micro 767: Spyro the Dragon Mafia - Game Over

[BuJaber]

video games!!

VOTE: UC Voyager

[BuJaber]

But... There aren't any nights here..

[BuJaber]

Exactly why are people so eager to townread Rat?

Garaputo maybe this is just your style but I think you're trying to cover up your scumminess with the jokey attitude.
VOTE: garaputo

[BuJaber]

Show me one thing garaputo posted in the game that is actuallly about the game.

It's all jokes or references or irrelevant things. Yet his postcount is higher than the average in our game so far.

I didn't like his opening and he hasn't redeemed himself yet.

[BuJaber]

Show me one thing garaputo posted in the game that is actuallly about the game.

It's all jokes or references or irrelevant things. Yet his postcount is higher than the average in our game so far.

I didn't like his opening and he hasn't redeemed himself yet.

I owe you no redemption as much as you owe me no unvote.

However, my first post was about the game, so in that I've met your standard.

I'm not going to change how I play to meet your metric of being redeemed, however I imagine that you'll find that when there is a bit more substance to react to, you'll see more of what you want from me.

Fair enough. I wouldn't expect you to. But we shall see.

[BuJaber]

Are we planning on lynching today?

I'd assumed Kublai would be doing the desperado thing since it only works today.

Let's go with you.

VOTE: Radical

[BuJaber]

I will do in the future sorry.. I'm not used to doing it.

Rat at L-2.

[BuJaber]

The post I quoted makes me think he's scum. I want to encourage the pressure on him and possible lynch.

[BuJaber]

I tried finding out what your role means, and I don't get it. But I don't care. You make the suspect pool less by 1. That's what matters.

Is there a reason why UC is talking like he's 2 people and his vote counted twice?

[BuJaber]

Unless yeah.. bot counted the 2 votes from the same person as 2 distinct votes.

[BuJaber]

I get the innocent child one. I couldn't find a page that links desperado with innocent child.

[BuJaber]

i wonder why

Wow really.. in a 9 player game? Fascinating. Power to you man.

[BuJaber]

8*

[BuJaber]

Seems early to me but I've also never experienced a mass claim so I have no idea how it would go.

[BuJaber]

Also the mod stated there are fake claims; I feel it could cause too much confusion

[BuJaber]

with no nights, i do not see the harm in mass claim. it would only narrow down our lynch pool

I did not think of it like that. Fine I'm on board.

[BuJaber]

If we're all agreed I suggest Khan picks one person to start, and then everyone follows.

[BuJaber]

For what it's worth I think garaputo is town.

[BuJaber]

Scum can hide behind anything. It's definitely possible. Gaining town's favor is highly beneficial so scum can and will sometimes do things that hurt them in hopes that they can benefit from that credit later on in the game.
Mass claiming here doesn't help scum. I was originally hesitant because I forgot it's a nightless game. Nightless game makes it rather favorable to town. So while I wouldn't expect scum to support the lynch, some players in such a situation would definitely choose to hide their intentions with the majority. It is the 'default' scum play. We are very likely looking at 1-2 on the let's not claim side and the remainder (if any) on the let's claim side. Therefore being in favor or against is by itself not AI unfortunately.

I don't know how to interpret wisdom's posts so far. I want to say he's scum but I'm likely influenced by bias. He doesn't seem the talkative type which always makes it harder. Guess it comes down to whether his confidence is faked by scum, or it's from a townie which generally speaking means they aren't afraid of being scumread.

[BuJaber]

Wisdom purposefully ignoring Radical rat and alisae's who don't speak as much. Why?

[BuJaber]

Even nsg has apologized for not doing enough and gone back to not doing enough.

[BuJaber]

In post 145, Wisdom wrote:
In post 143, garaputo wrote:
Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.

This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now

Neither do scum. Isn't it to the scum's advantage to keep town blindly guessing and pointing fingers until we get to a Day X LyLo or MyLo situation?

This could be a mostly vanilla game or a role-madness game. Neither Town nor Scum knows that at this point, so scum is at bigger risk claiming today then waiting until a few flips happen.

Same argument. Unless you are scum, you have no idea what the scum know or don't. The mod has explicitly stated "Power Roles were decided by flavour, VTs were then randomised from a list of characters, the left over characters were then given to scum as fakeclaims,
it is impossible to break the game via flavour"

In your best case scenario, the town tell the truth, the scum lie, and pick bad lies. Even in that best case scenario the scum gain more correct information than the town does.

Good point but lies are harder to tell than the truth. I suspect the mass claim intention that comes from Khan - a confirmed townie, is that it forces scum to lie, because if they refuse to participate after the majority decide it's the way to go it looks bad on them. Forcing scum to post and lie is good because one of the best scum weapons is their ability to lurk along without saying too much so as to remain in the not alignment indicative zone of posting.

Wisdom what are your specific reasons for wanting me lynched?

[BuJaber]

you're scummy

Oh wow let's go home everyone wisdom doesn't need any help.

Well I've guaranteed my enjoyment for the game. I no longer care what we do I'm gonna have fun in any case seeing people trying to justify their wrong read on me. Funny how the most experience always tunnel the hardest.
I hope to god I don't become this biased as my experience grows.


Garaputo it is specifically this reaction that is why you're town. Scum don't have the privilege of rejecting the mass claim as strongly as you are.

[BuJaber]

I'll take your word for it but really there are subtle things that we can't fake. I'm not saying I wouldn't be fooled by scummy you; we won't know until we try. I am saying that we all like to think we do the same things we do as town the same way when scum but the reality is that's a very difficult thing to do and oftentimes subtle differences would give us away.

[BuJaber]

It's a nightless game that at least 2 people want to play as if it was just a normal game. What's the harm? We wouldn't be arguing about massclaim if it was a normal game so let them be Khan. You tried, you got majority on your side, but not everyone.

That doesn't mean that garaputo and wisdom can't be scum, but we can't scumread them and AFM based on this alone, so further discussion doesn't help. I suspect that one out of the 3 is scum. The challenge is finding out their scum partner.

We can either:
1. Continue like it's a normal game. We have one innocent child which is a decent start. And even without the massclaim this whole debate polarized the players which is perfect because odds are one scum is among the nay voters and 1 or 2 among the yes voters.
2. have everyone who agreed claim already. This gives wisdom and garaputo the most power in the game if scum, and almost as much power as scum if they're town. That puts them at the center of this game. If town they need to assume leadership responsibility and help us win the game. If they don't actively do this insta-lynch. If scum, I suspect that we will be able to find this out. This much power leaks from the pores and we'll sniff it out.

This is my first nightless game but if it is even slightly similar to one-night ultimate werewolf then what I said above is a valid and winning strategy from countless games of werewolf I've played.


If you don't shoot anybody today do you also die? If so then no lynch is the way to go, and we 'vote' for who you shoot.

Rat is my choice. 2nd choice AFM. AFM over wisdom because I DON'T LET MY CLASH OF STYLE AFFECT MY JUDGEMENT OR MY DESIRE TO WIN THE GAME. No point proving you're townie if you help town lose.

[BuJaber]

That is because I started writing the post and then as I was going back and reading some stuff I saw that AFM said no to mass claim also, so I adjusted part of the post but must have missed others. So I apologize for the inconsistency. Also my post was mainly directed at Khan, and I wanted to emphasize that you and wisdom are likely townie with a different opinion. AFM I don't have a particular read on one way or another because of lack of posts, but given that I believe there is one scum among those against the massclaim, AFM is scum by elimination.

I expect there to be 2/8 scum. But for all I know there might be 3. It's a nightless game, I have no idea how much more powerful scum would be when they have no nights. Or even if they are indeed more powerful than in a normal game. My main point was I expect them to split their votes on the issue. Therefore not one group is 'safe' from being infiltrated by scum.

You are absolutely right about everyone having to work hard, but in the event that a player doesn't claim and 5+ others claim that gives them a lot of power in the game. So the burden falls on them to show they are townie and indeed if they are townie then by default they have more information and therefore have a bigger role to play in solving the game as their scum guesses would be more educated. In a normal game PR's in general play a more important role as they have more info than VTs. (There is of course a difference between say a doctor and a cop in this regard but the basic principle is still correct).

[BuJaber]

Khan do you die if you don't shoot today?

Nsg and rat are good scum picks but wisdom's reasoning is bad. It assumes all scum would follow the same tactic. I would add UCV and AFM to that list.

[BuJaber]

Khan since you're a desperado vig doesn't that mean that if we lynch before you shoot you lose your chance to shoot?

If so day progress depends on you.

[BuJaber]

Maybe not but the flip clears wisdom and garaputo in my eyes like I explained before. So it's between rat, north, and UCV. Since scum have vig power, double vote being scum seems too powerful. That leaves rat and north.
Kinda sucks that both weren't very active.

Why are you choosing north over rat wisdom/garaputo.. (or anyone else for that matter)? I'm leaning towards rat more as that has been my gut feeling most of the game.

[BuJaber]

Is it possible to have a double lynch? Like if we put 2 votes on each and then UCV votes for both players?

[BuJaber]

I find it suspicious people are going after UCV. Of coure I know I'm town. See I don't think any scum would reveal a strong power like double vote so early on day 1, unprompted, and vote both on someone they know is town.

Nobody answered my question regarding a double lynch.

I also agree with nsg that garaputo while not wrong is oversimplifying the situation and is being too picky regarding the word choices of nsg.

If double lynch rat and nsg simultaneously (UCV hammers both)
If that isn't possible rat has always been my scumlean.

VOTE: Radical Rat

[BuJaber]

To further explain my analysis of UCV; if you think both of us are scum then his play makes sense but if only he is scum it doesn't. 3 scum would be seriously op in a game this size so that scenario is out.
If you don't believe I'm town that's obviously different and I'll try to change your mind but in this case you would vote for me not UCV. Therefore ucv votes are suspicious.

[BuJaber]

Mod: isn't it only 4 required to lynch with 7 alive (7/2 + 1 rounded down)? Or is 5 specific to this game?

[BuJaber]

Ok so double vote is not as powerful as I thought and the double lynch is impossible.

I still say rat but now I think UCV could be scum because it wouldn't be op.

[BuJaber]

I also agree with nsg that garaputo while not wrong is oversimplifying the situation and is being too picky regarding the word choices of nsg.

Did you miss the part where it was nsg calling my opinion disingenuous and me replying to that, or does your criticism of me being to picky about word choices persist despite it being me defending myself?

Yes I am saying that my criticism is independent of your disagreement. I felt that you made too big a deal on the wording. That may be because him calling you disengenious upset you and that's undeestandable. But if you want to have a logical argument you need to look beyond the words and at the message itself. Especially that nsg even if town will never agree on your orginal point that scum are among those that didn't scum read AFM. Well he might but then he would have to exclude himself as a suspect and simultaneously scumread one of the other players that didn't scumread (because if he didn't then it would mean he doesn't agree). Also both of you will post based on the perspective of a townie even if you're not. So neither of you can be sure of each other's alignment. That means when nsg responds to you he is looking for scumtells too and that is probably what led him to (falsely if you want my opinion) detect a hint of disnigenuousness.

This train of thought is starting to hurt my own brain so I doubt I'll be able to explain further without it sounding like complete gibberish.
Just so nobody misunderstands I am making a general point. I am not talking about my reads on garaputo or nsg. My reads have nothing to do with me criticising the argument. As I've said garaputo has been and still is a strong townread for me and nsg is my second scum pick after Rat. I can still agree or disagree with them regardless of how I'm reading them.

[BuJaber]

The way he did it yes. Because it was a little early for a lynch. So he could pull them back.
But why would he use his power like that as scum. He could do it one vote at a time. Like test the waters on lynch candidates with one 1 vote and then decide if he wants to put the other vote there. Better still he could keep one vote on a scum buddy. That way if he needs to bus he can.

This was all before I knew that double vote increases the number required for lynch. Now it's possible for him to be scum in my eyes but still doesn't really explain how he's using it. Unless he's just clueless as to how he should utilize it as scum. Therefore probably town.

I am assuming of course he has control over each vote separetly that's the impression I got when he said 'unvote both' if it works like a normal vote and just counts twice then all my logic doesn't apply.

[BuJaber]

He voted twice in a row in 2 consecutive posts that doesn't count as testing the waters. He was doubling down.

As for your other question yes he can but wouldn't that be more suspicious?

Say ucv and player A is scum, player B is town:

Scenario 1: Ucv votes A, game progresses, people vote for A, ucv puts down his double vote when he thinks it's inevitable (probably hammer or L-1). "Yeah guys I always thought he was scum"

Scenario 2: People start voting for A, UCV votes for A twice, someone (UCV or anyone else doesn't matter much) hammers. People start analyzing the votes.. "why did ucv jump on that wagon?"

Scenario 3: same as 1 but replace A with B. B flips town easy to come up with excuses.

Scenario 4: same as 2 but replace A with B. UCV just helped end the day early to a mislynch.

Scenarios 2 and 4 would be way worse than 1 and 3 for scum UCV.

[BuJaber]

Look the reasonable assumption is that there is only more scum left. I think it's Rat. You and some seem to think it's UCV, and others think it's you.

If I am forced into a situation where I have to choose how do I not pick you over UCV? What have you done that is town? You ask a lot of interesting questions but they're mainly theoritical. Like why something is or isn't AI. That is not typical of town. I actually enjoyed your posts but they belong in a theory thread not in a game thread.

If you are asking these questions because you think garaputo or I are scum then why are you voting for UCV? Do you think there could be 3 scum?
If you are doing this to convince me to vote for UCV then we should flip this around.. you post why you think he's scum and I'll give counter arguments until one of us changes their mind or we reach an agreement to disagree.

One thing you did manage to do is force me to question every single assumption I've had this game which is always good but I think that was just a coincidence. I've been asking myself questions about the double votes and UCV has literally never responded. So he claims the power but doesn't seem to want to describe it fully. So I've made my own theories about the logistics of it and saw that nobody told me I'm wrong so I took as a sign to continue thinking in this way.

Here's my latest understanding. Considering he made 2 separate posts to double vote me on day 1, that implies each of his votes is independent of the other. Secondly since the mod told us it would take 5 to lynch given that the double vote is in play then the double vote is not as op as I first thought so theoritically I can be convinced that UCV is scum, as opposed to if it were 4 to lynch as usual then scum having a double vote would seem pretty op to me.

Pedit - then just tell him don't vote... you honestly think he can be scum? I've never seen scum use the 'talk to them like they're all idiots' strategy to win a game.

[BuJaber]

Plus wisdom has literally only 3 posts that are longer than 2 lines/sentences. And even those are barely longer and for the most part make just 1 point each.

If he's scum he's the most confident one I've ever seen.

[BuJaber]

I feel like I'm giving arguments as to why he's town and you're saying they're not AI. I'm saying you should tell me why he's scum instead and let me play devil's advocate. It's a small difference from what we're doing right now but it helps me more.

I honestly either disagree or cannot answer the other stuff. I have done more in my own head to townread UCV than he did. I admit that. But there's a nullread based on his posts and a gut feeling that he's town. With you I only have a nullread but my gut can't decide. It's in part why I'm discussing every little point y'all are making day 2 because I need more guidance.

If it was down to me I want to lynch Rat. I'll see if I can put together a case but to do it properly I need to read everything in its context and I'm too tired now.

[BuJaber]

Guidance isn't the right word.. let's say I'm looking for more perspectives.

Pedit - thanks. Yes I remember this post. I didn't comment at the time because I wasn't sure if that was enough of a case. It focuses on game setup more than UCV himself. You can say that my thing with the double votes is also more to do with setup than it is with UCV but one leads to a conclusion he's scum and the other that he's town. Either of us could be wrong about mechanics.

[BuJaber]

Okay just skimmed through nsg and UCV's ISO's.

I made a mistake that I will admit after the game is over lol.

VOTE: UC Voyager

I'm sorry nsg. Not for suspecting you I wouldn't apologize for that. I am apologizing for comparing your activity with UCV's this game. Yours blows his out of the water.

[BuJaber]

That is L-1

[BuJaber]

Maybe I misunderstood what you're trying to say but who said anything about day 2 day vig?

We had day 1 day vig (khan) and it is still day 1.

[BuJaber]

We don't really know town's power though so how do we know if it's op. One IC means a little easier to lynch scum which probably delays mylo. (Even if desperado shot town). Especially that there aren't any nights so scum need lynches just as much as town do.

[BuJaber]

We know for sure that UCV can double vote (at least in day 1, we aren't 100% sure he will still have it going forward) because he used it on me earlier. So there's no question of his ability. The question is can he also be scum. He's saying no obviously but he's using game setup reasons to back it up when I think that's the right way for town to go about it. Town imo should just focus on scumhunting and generally being pro town and by doing that we can believe their claim.

His posts have been lacking in general for me to be convinced he's town. It feels like scum lurking.

[BuJaber]

We know for sure that UCV can double vote (at least in day 1, we aren't 100% sure he will still have it going forward) because he used it on me earlier. So there's no question of his ability. The question is can he also be scum. He's saying no obviously but he's using game setup reasons to back it up when I think

that's NOT the right way

for town to go about it. Town imo should just focus on scumhunting and generally being pro town and by doing that we can believe their claim.

His posts have been lacking in general for me to be convinced he's town. It feels like scum lurking.

Ebwop

[BuJaber]

Actually I'm playing with the assumption that one was for amd one against the pro claim, which is what led me to AFM in the first place.
So imo this clears wisdom and garaputo even if they don't have other towntells (which they do).

Nsg called it "too scummy to be scum" logic but I don't see wisdom being scum. I think someone who even when he was posting was generally quiet and had short posts would likely be more lethargic as you call it if they're town knowing that we already caught 1 scum.

I'm not gonna fight strongly on his behalf; I've learnt from experience how almost-criminally deceptive scum can be and he might be scum, but I'm just saying that after you (conftown) he's currently my top townread, with gara being a close second.

Ideally I see this lynch being between Rat and UCV. After his latest post Rat is winning the who's scummier game, but let's see how he responds to nsg.
Rat knows that at the very least there's one person (me) scumreading/pushing for his lynch and his only post of late is to throw suspicion at UCV and declare willingness to lynch wisdom? The 2 people who if anyone paying attention to the game would conclude are the other possible lynches today. That comes off as very self-serving.

[BuJaber]

If rat gets another vote I intend to hammer.

[BuJaber]

Ehh I had a bigger issue with you suspecting UCV and wisdom.

Guys what do we think about a massclaim now that 1 scum is dead?

Garaputo I don't understand the wisdom vote, care to dumb it down?

[BuJaber]

Beeboy is AFM right?

wisdom said the only players he's played with before is beeboy. So possibly we should have gotten some comments about AFM from wisdom, but still I find it extremely unlikely that scum wisdom will state clearly that he is anti-massclaim, then have his partner AFM also state the same opinion and them not distancing themselves or talking about it in day chat that one of them probably should change their stance.

Anyway that's my opinion but thanks for explaining. I picked up on those posts of yours just wasn't sure if there's anything else.

By my count rat is at L-2. I'm still down to lynch either UCV or rat, but for now I'm leaning towards UCV but will hammer at rat L-1.

[BuJaber]

I'll even go so far as to say - I make posts like this as town, and still this part of the post feels distinctly non-town to me.

Such is life.


Look last time I stated intent to hammer it got you to vote for rat, got nsg to unvote and vote for ucv, got ucv to post, and got rat to post. A lot more to go on than before. For example I was almost at a conftownread for nsg, but even though unvoting at L-1 isn't AI, I'm now finding myself having to put him back down to a nullread. In this regard, in the off-chance that there are 3 scum and rat is lynched and flips scum nsg would be next for sure.

I want to see what happens this time. I also don't want people thinking I changed my mind about the hammer, because I haven't. Rat would probably be dead now if I were here when you voted for him. I didn't expect it to come so fast after my intent to hammer.

The lynch pool need not be restricted for all players, but from my perspective as of now those are the only 2 I want to vote for.

[BuJaber]

Khan (obviously), You and wisdom.


Though to be completely honest I wouldn't be upset if wisdom got lynched. But as I'm townreading him (WIFOM logic or not), I refuse to participate.

[BuJaber]

I'm still happy with lynch.

Does anyone want to say something?

[BuJaber]

I was hoping for more time, and if someone were to take my spot, hoped it wouldn't be the IC.

Anyway.. should be scum.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: wisdom

Garaputo is next in case wisdom is town. Let's flip assumptions upside down.

[BuJaber]

tbh we can just keep lynching until we win

scum dont seem like they can kill after all

My thought exactly, but does anyone else think if UCV is scum we're just screwed? I am not prepared to suspect him. With the exception of Khan and UCV, I will lynch everyone else one by one.

tbh Khan I wouldn't be shocked if nsg were scum, and it's not like wisdom will vote for himself.

[BuJaber]

Likewise garap. Yeah I've been townreading you forever, but that is what makes you dangerous alive if we don't lynch scum today, because you could be scum and the only way I'd know is through a guess or process of elimination.


This is frustrating. I get nsg's point. So I reread UCV's ISO. I should have done it earlier. UCV's ISO is lacking. His RVS vote seems too unrandom. From what I can see the only people he's suspected all game were Rat and me.
From what I gather there is also a meta change from his town game. Whether that definitely means he's scum I'm not sure.

It also occurs to me that just because I was wrong with rat doesn't mean I've been wrong about wisdom/garaputo. And it is very difficult to play if you never trust your reads/instincts.

Okay if UCV is telling the truth and town then he is just a VT now. So worse case scenario we hit another VT.

Because of how wisdom is playing his lynch will always be debated. So maybe we don't need to lynch him first.
Wisdom why are you suspecting nsg?

VOTE: UCV

[BuJaber]

From what I can see the only people he's suspected all game were Rat and me.

To add to this, he didn't participate in AFM lynch, doesn't mention her or interact with her until after her lynch to push the rat lynch.

[BuJaber]

Because I've been playing a lot of games with UCV and may have mixed up his posts. It's a silly mistake and I feel idiotic and I understand if that means you can't trust me this game.

[BuJaber]

Ucv .. nsg ? Can you vote please?

[BuJaber]

Wisdom - so you don't want to lynch him?

nsg is the original ucv pusher. I'm curious what he wants to do.

[BuJaber]

Garaputo put your vote back. That way anyone can hammer. Normally time is on our side but people are only getting less interested in this game.

Also wisdom I don't think it's as black and white as you're implying .. scum could easiky lose interest when one of them is dead and there's a wagon on the other.


Pedit - yes exactly .. so gara moving his vote doesn't make sense.

[BuJaber]

Tells UCV to lynch north then me when he thought he was dead.
Then votes me.
Was that not genuine advice from a dying VT or did you have a brain fart? It doesn't matter but it feels personal.

If you both are townreading each other that leaves nsg as the probable scum. Don't see why either of you would bother doing this if scum you would just vote the other. Seems like too much effort.
VOTE: nsg

[BuJaber]

All we needed was ucv here .. that was easy. Nsg dies day 3 if you guys still lynch me and see my flip. If he also is town we probably lose.

[BuJaber]

I don't know ucv's scumgame. My scumread was because I thought your case was convincing and him using setup to show how 'op scum day 1 double vote would be' was a weak defense. Actually I suppose it does make sense for scum!ucv to muddy up my image here. Wisdom doesn't care regardless of alignment he'll vote anybody, garaputo is on the fence with me.

Is it clear wisdom knew? If he's scum he doesn't know for sure ucv was telling the truth... though tbh it would be a dumb lie. Hmmm

So who are you voting for?
And let's see what Khan has to say.
Also I'd like everyone to answer this question: there aren't any nights but do you think a dayvig for day 2 would be scum's only kill the whole game?

[BuJaber]

Man his theatrics worked on me like a charm.. I'm ashamed. Thanks nsg you have a way of making me re question life itself.
UCV is very likely scum nevermind like he doesn't even try to go after nsg or defend hiimself.. he 'tests' wisdom, wins him over, then puts together a case that doesn't fit this game because he igmorrs all context of this game. My posts aren't scummy in a nightkess game where one scum is already dead.

VOTE: UCV

It's possible ucv has killing power day 3. If he successfully gets me lynched he only needs 2 more mislynches.

[BuJaber]

whatever. i'd like to hear kublai's thoughts, i might hammer bu after that.

@mod, prod kublai khan?

Why would you do that ?

[BuJaber]

whatever. i'd like to hear kublai's thoughts, i might hammer bu after that.

@mod, prod kublai khan?

Why would you do that ?

Because I'm awesome?

Sorry, was real busy. I'll get caught up this by this evening.

I was asking nsg why he 'might hammer me'

[BuJaber]

Well if the votecount is any indication, mod isn't counting 2 votes for UCV this time. So he doesn't have it D2. You need to ask yourself if he has odd day doublevote or not and if you think he's scum or not.

I'm suggesting that he is scum regardless of his power(s).

[BuJaber]

I don't think wisdom is scum..
But so this conversation doesn't die, and the game continues to progress: If I do vote wisdom with you, and he flips town, who will you vote next? It kinda matters at this point.
I did say we will lynch people 1 by 1 but since each of us will not be voting for themselves we will be arguing at some point. And that's where we might lose even if we have an advantage now.

[BuJaber]

yeh just lynch me and move on or we're gonna go in circles forever

its really hard to lose the game anyway

What would be your lynch order? I specifically want to know how many mislynches it would take for you to vote garap, and would it be before or after nsg.


So ucv you think gara pretty much gained a townread from everyone only so he could use it later to win the game? It's very dedicated and I don't mean to disrespect anyone here I don't think that's easy to do.

He's playing scummy right now because people are bored and want a lynch to happen.

[BuJaber]

Khan what I gather from this now is that you need to pick me or ucv today. Wisdom not getting votes on by anyone other than you.

Garaputo it wasn't supposed to be flattering unless you are scum........ are ypu telling us something?
Nobody could pull it off is what I meant to say it literally requires you to know the future so that you would play as ucv suggested. But I really like that he's considering everyone.

[BuJaber]

But nsg could be scum.

I don't like this game anymore.

Vote wisdom

[BuJaber]

But nsg could be scum.

I don't like this game anymore.

VOTE: wisdom

[BuJaber]

UNVOTE:

[BuJaber]

Thanks for playing

Scum is definitely nsg/garaputo. I need time to figure out which.

[BuJaber]

Wisdom any way you would believe I'm town without seeing me flip first?
Actually it doesn't matter if you end up with khan at LYLO.. we need to convince Khan you're town instead.
Okay so 1) we need to know for sure that the only way for anyone to die is through lynch. I don't know how we can do this. It appears we just have to assume they don't given that we killed the day 2 sniper.
2) if one of me/wisdom dies we need to make sure Khan will not vote for the other at all.

[BuJaber]

Let's get the real wagons started.
VOTE: nsg
My gut tells me this is the scum.

[BuJaber]

That's why I can't risk it. Either I'm right or I'm wrong. If I'm right but they don't listen to me we lose quickly. If I'm wrong they kill you and town wins. But right now I'm 95% sure you're town. And 75% sure nsg is scum not gara.

[BuJaber]

Wisdom has become more interested in the game but not more interested in staying alive.
However that did not translate into being more analytical or arguing more or trying to accuse/defend people.

Yes he could be scum and faking. Yes he could be scum and not faking. But if he is scum I would expect more attempts at manipulating town. Also I don't think the weird interaction with UCV's hammer reaction test is a scum one.

Plus I still haven't changed my mind about what I originally said in day 1 that one scum would probably be among those against massclaim and one for massclaim. AFM was against, so I'm hesitant to think either wisdom/gara is the 2nd scum. I'm obviously treating this part of my reasoning with a grain of salt but I won't lie it factors in a little.

nsg fits my idea of perfect scum. Appear town, use townie logic to build cases against those who make weak arguments, stay active but not too active, ask provocative questions that make people feel more confident of themselves. Basically he played me well and I don't even feel like I was played. I was totally behind the UCV lynch, the fact that he flipped town is just an unfortunate result.

That being said I'd love to be wrong, because it would mean I was right. I've wanted to lynch wisdom forever him and rat were my first scumreads. That just doesn't matter anymore because we need to analyze the facts in front of us.

[BuJaber]

SHE SHE SHE .. damn it .. I really need to stop doing that .. I'm sorry nsg.

VOTE: garaputo

4 wagons consisting of 2 votes.
Now we have art

So while looking at ISO's I read AFM's opener. I know hindsight 20/20 and all that but seriously this should have been obvious.


Anyway: These are all the interactions between AFM/nsg (sorry if I missed something):

NSG who are you town reading and why?

VOTE: nsg

I expect nsg to be doing more.

i've kind of been assuming that this was a nightless game where scum were completely vanilla and thus had no power to nightkill, but the fact that there are obvious power roles already probably means that this isn't true. i think it's probably not worth it forcing everyone to massclaim right now. here's where i'm at on reads:


beeboy / alisae's french maid — a bit of a lack of posting recently. when i started typing this i was going to put him at a townlean for being quick to call rat town in 42 and 64, but that's a pretty weak reason. overall, null.

^This last one here is interesting because nsg changes her mind about the massclaim. Uses a pretty obvious conclusion that everyone should have figured out at that stage to justify changing her mind.

[BuJaber]

Also it's taken me 2 games and countless pages to properly read your name, nsg lol. I kept reading it as one word.

I'm an idiot Khan maybe you shouldn't listen to me.
But regardless, tell me what you think. Do you still want to vote wisdom, and if so, why?

[BuJaber]

hmm so NM has confirmed that scum have fakeclaims in the game notes. I don't know if that necessary means that nsg wouldn't change her mind about the massclaims if she were scum, but maybe my last point is not as strong as I thought. Or maybe it's stronger. What do you guys think? Does that make a difference?

[BuJaber]

Lol gara

Alright then sorry everyone. Too scummy to be scum doesn't exist.