Micro 767: Spyro the Dragon Mafia - Game Over

[northsidegal]

dragons!!

VOTE: wisdom

[northsidegal]

VOTE: kublai khan

[northsidegal]

is this trolling or

are you referring to my vote?

[northsidegal]

i honestly forget that there was an ic in this game. sorry, i'm in a lot of games right now and i think i mixed things up. i wasn't trying to troll, i was naked voting to try to bait reactions.
UNVOTE:

[northsidegal]

@garaputo, that's more of a function of me only having one completed scumgame than me being town.

by the way, i'm already townreading half of the playerlist.
VOTE: ucv

[northsidegal]

Then voting someone without reason. . .

you're obviously in the other half.

who do you think is scum, ucv?

[northsidegal]

garaputo, why are you acting so different compared to your completed towngames?

[northsidegal]

VOTE: nsg

I expect nsg to be doing more.

yeah, this is totally warranted. sorry, i'll try to put more effort in.

i'm up for a mass claim, for what it's worth.

[northsidegal]

alright, here's where i'm at so far. earlier, i talked about townreading half of the playerlist, but this is kind of a cop-out, considering that among those townreads are myself and the innocent child. however, this isn't an entirely pointless conclusion: given that this is a nightless game, process of elimination is all you need to win the game. it also means (at least, in a conventional, vanilla nightless game) that scum can't do anything to get rid of voices that they don't want heard, so in that respect i've failed so far in terms of towning.

Could someone who is arguing for the mass claim provide 1) logistics for how it happens, and 2) what the proposal is to handle refusals?

I think it's best to know the details of the plan before starting in.

i think the main strategy is popcorn – you start off with one person claiming, and that person decides who the next person is, and so on. i'm not actually sure how a refusal to participate is met, but i'd imagine it would be with votes.

[northsidegal]

i've kind of been assuming that this was a nightless game where scum were completely vanilla and thus had no power to nightkill, but the fact that there are obvious power roles already probably means that this isn't true. i think it's probably not worth it forcing everyone to massclaim right now. here's where i'm at on reads:


beeboy / alisae's french maid — a bit of a lack of posting recently. when i started typing this i was going to put him at a townlean for being quick to call rat town in 42 and 64, but that's a pretty weak reason. overall, null.

garaputo — weird opening. as of recent his posts have been more to what seems like his norm. i'm inclined to think getting into something of a prolonged argument like he has is something that comes more from town than from scum. rat had a good point about him, however, in 151. also, the vote in 176 is lamist, and something i see a lot coming from scum. actually, i see that so often from scum
VOTE: garaputo

wisdom — pretty much null. i can't get a good read one way or the other from his posts. if i had to say something, the serious response to garaputo's rvs vote in 13 seems self-conscious and scummy to me. to also make a conclusion off of very little, 31 implies that scum have no killing power this game. a reasonable assumption and one that i made myself – specifically bringing it up seems strage, however.

radical rat — probably town. i'm willing to believe that 23 was a genuine townslip, and i like the questioning in 51.

bujaber — i think bu is more likely town than not. i've played one game with him before where he was scum and his play here and there are pretty different. the game i played with him he came up with an elaborate fake case to push someone on, whereas this game i'm seeing a lot less confidence which indicates to me that he's approaching the game from an uninformed perspective. even beyond that, however, i think his reaction to being pressured hasn't been bad. one point against him, however, is that in 171 he seems to come from the position that wisdom is already town and is simply biased rather than considering the possibility that wisdom is scum pushing his lynch.

ucv — i can't read ucv, all i end up doing is lynching him in every game we're in together. his push on bu in 92 is really bad, and the reasoning in 96 makes me think that this is a disingenuous push, but again – history tells me that i can't reliably tell one way or the other. to do a bit of setup speculation, the fact that both kublai's role and ucv's role both only work day one would make me think that one is scum and the other is town, and that a similar dichotomy would follow in upcoming days.

[northsidegal]

Yeah... It's stuff like this that bugs me. Instead of pointing me towards scum so that one scum dies and we keep a conftown, you push a plan of keeping scum alive, killing a townie to die so you can continue posting useless two lines posts for another day.

"Great" plan. Way to out-shallow me.

why are you assuming wisdom is town rather than scum wifoming you on the shot?

[northsidegal]

i don't think that being against the massclaim necessarily implies that people are scum – i wouldn't even say that it's a scumtell in itself.

[northsidegal]

i don't want khan potentially out of the game. he's making a really good effort to actually try to play here and sort people.

[northsidegal]

why am i scum?

[northsidegal]

why am i scum?

Abject lack of participation.

apologies for not getting into the pages-long argument about whether or not massclaiming would benefit us, but i didn't really have much to say on it. also, activity is nai.

[northsidegal]

what purpose did that post serve? what did you accomplish by saying that?

revel in your sense of smugness all you want. it's not actually you playing the game.

[northsidegal]

in fact, isn't it ironic that the person shading me for being low-activity is the one who had a one-line response to a massive wall, calling the rest of it "fluff"?

[northsidegal]

trying to make responses while i'm mad is a bad idea. i'll respond later.

also, please shoot garputo.

[northsidegal]

why is shooting you a dumb idea? you don't want to be conftown?

[northsidegal]

no, my question was more in a general sense. calling it a

dumb idea

carries a certain connotation to it. for example, i know that shooting me would be a mistake, but it's not necessarily a

dumb

plan, per se – just a mistake. so why is shooting you a specifically dumb plan?

[northsidegal]

Scummy post.
Khan's an IC, which means he's the only player in the game right now that's 100% trustworthy. Going with his flow as you put it is a natural reaction for Town to have.
Not to say that automatically makes everyone who agrees with him Town nor that everyone who doesn't is scum, but I do believe it to be far more likely scum would be arguing against him, or trying to sell him as incompetent.

no, i think in general scum are more likely to try to align themselves to the conftown than to take a vocally opposing stance.

[northsidegal]

nice! i figured that scum had some sort of killing power here.

[northsidegal]

Congrats UC Voyager on being the next to meet the 2 days without posting mark!

I'll now resume watching paint dry and making posts 12 hours apart without anyone posting in between.

"look at me, i'm so active"

if you care so much about getting the game moving, why not provide some actual content for other people to work off of? you haven't said anything of substance since the flip.

personally, i think the fact that beeboy was specifically a day two vig makes it more likely that ucv is scum, following along with the theory that there's a town pr and a scum pr for each day. of course, it could be the case that day one there's two town prs and the same for scum day two, but i doubt this. beeboy's 83 also makes it likely to me that they were teamed.

the knowledge of the dayvig does cast the massclaim in a new light, however. while it was initially proposed by the ic, this post:

I don't see why not.
Generally the reason to avoid claiming early is to not get killed, but with no nights that's not an issue right?

gives me pause. yes, it's certainly a reasonable assumption, but the way it's framed makes me slightly suspicious.


VOTE: ucv

[northsidegal]

I think people that weren't scumreading AFM are a good potential targets for a noose now,

why? i wouldn't say it's as if there was any sort of large push on afm that scum would've tried to resist. i didn't scumread him because there was almost nothing from him to go off of. seems a little disingenuous honestly. there's nothing to say that scum wouldn't have given a scumlean on their buddy in afm's absence.

[northsidegal]

hm? i'm not making that as an argument, i'm saying that it's an equally likely possibility, in my opinion.

[northsidegal]

You can buy a lotto ticket and claim "there are only 2 outcomes, I win or I lose, so I have a 50/50 shot" but that just means you don't understand probabilities.

By your own account AFM had done nothing to demonstrate towniness, so folks townreading or not at least partially in favor of an AFM vote should absolutely have some suspicion given the flip.

i'm a little insulted that you think so poorly of my statistical reasoning. yes, afm hadn't done much, but not everyone approaches the game the same way you do. i'm not a fan of lurker lynches so i'd be hesitant to vote someone who i have as null over someone i actively scumread. unless you're going to make a meta argument as to someone typically willing to vote lurkers but not doing so in this case, i think "the people who townread the flipped scum are themselves scum" is an overly simplistic viewpoint.

[northsidegal]

I also don't think you can bounce the ideas "not everyone approaches the game as you do" up against the idea that you think I'm being disingenuous in so short a span of posts and actually mean both.

"people townreading scum are themselves scum" doesn't seem like an idea that i would expect you to hold, so you putting it forward seems strange to me. it's likely that my initial impression of you is what was off, but i don't think those two ideas are contrasting or conflicting at all.

[northsidegal]

i'm not sure how else you guys expected ucv to reveal the double vote. like, would you expect scum to quickhammer someone with it? that would practically be suicide.

[northsidegal]

i'm not sure how else you guys expected ucv to reveal the double vote. like, would you expect scum to quickhammer someone with it? that would practically be suicide.

UCV didn't have to own up to the restriction on it.

i don't really see how that's ai.

I also don't think you can bounce the ideas "not everyone approaches the game as you do" up against the idea that you think I'm being disingenuous in so short a span of posts and actually mean both.

"people townreading scum are themselves scum" doesn't seem like an idea that i would expect you to hold, so you putting it forward seems strange to me. it's likely that my initial impression of you is what was off, but i don't think those two ideas are contrasting or conflicting at all.

Yeah I think you are talking past me towards your strawman. I said that people townreading scum are a good place to look for scum. These are not nearly the same thing.

i don't see a huge difference really, but i'm willing to accept that there is one and leave it there.

[northsidegal]

I find it suspicious people are going after UCV. Of coure I know I'm town. See I don't think any scum would reveal a strong power like double vote so early on day 1, unprompted, and vote both on someone they know is town.

huh? are you saying he would only use it on his scumbuddy? why? also, same question i asked other people: how else would you expect him to reveal it?

[northsidegal]

The way he did it yes. Because it was a little early for a lynch. So he could pull them back.
But why would he use his power like that as scum. He could do it one vote at a time. Like test the waters on lynch candidates with one 1 vote and then decide if he wants to put the other vote there.

i mean, that's pretty much what he did, though:

Spoiler:

This is fair
UNVOTE: rat it was RVS
VOTE: Bu

In fact
VOTE: BU

Better still he could keep one vote on a scum buddy. That way if he needs to bus he can.

you realize he could always just start bussing by just moving both of his votes, right?

[northsidegal]

As for your other question yes he can but wouldn't that be more suspicious?

not really. there really isn't as big of a difference between the two scenarios as you're describing there is. you're also putting far more thought into it than i suspect ucv did.

[northsidegal]

If I am forced into a situation where I have to choose how do I not pick you over UCV? What have you done that is town?

huh? given reads, scumhunted, tried to convince others of my opinion, and so on. what has ucv done that i haven't that's town?

You ask a lot of interesting questions but they're mainly theoritical. Like why something is or isn't AI. That is not typical of town. I actually enjoyed your posts but they belong in a theory thread not in a game thread.

yes, it is typical of town. if other people are pushing things as ai that i don't think are ai, i need to hear their reasoning on that to determine if they're either scum pushing a lie or town who i think are misguided.

If you are asking these questions because you think garaputo or I are scum then why are you voting for UCV? Do you think there could be 3 scum?
If you are doing this to convince me to vote for UCV then we should flip this around.. you post why you think he's scum and I'll give counter arguments until one of us changes their mind or we reach an agreement to disagree.

huh??? i am doing this to convince you to vote for ucv (and also with the side effect of seeing if someone else is scummier in their responses than ucv), and what you described is

literally what we're doing right now

.

Plus wisdom has literally only 3 posts that are longer than 2 lines/sentences. And even those are barely longer and for the most part make just 1 point each.

If he's scum he's the most confident one I've ever seen.

that's just how some people play, town or scum. don't fall into the trap of "too scummy to be scum".

[northsidegal]

personally, i think the fact that beeboy was specifically a day two vig makes it more likely that ucv is scum, following along with the theory that there's a town pr and a scum pr for each day. of course, it could be the case that day one there's two town prs and the same for scum day two, but i doubt this. beeboy's 83 also makes it likely to me that they were teamed.

the knowledge of the dayvig does cast the massclaim in a new light, however. while it was initially proposed by the ic, this post:

I don't see why not.
Generally the reason to avoid claiming early is to not get killed, but with no nights that's not an issue right?

gives me pause. yes, it's certainly a reasonable assumption, but the way it's framed makes me slightly suspicious.


VOTE: ucv

[northsidegal]

that's an odd switch from your previous opinion of ucv being town and me being scum. what changed your mind?

[northsidegal]

UNVOTE: because i don't want to risk kublai dying before he can talk about this.

[northsidegal]

waiting to hear from ucv himself.

[northsidegal]

that's not op at all, and also has nothing to do with being a double voter. the exact same scenario could happen, except with a regular quickhammer and scum dayvigging their buddy as a gambit.

[northsidegal]

@ucv

here

[northsidegal]

please shoot me quickly so i can conftown

Just a reminder that Wisdom had the exact same reaction to my day vig claim that Alisaes French Maid had. And she turned scum.

Is UC Voyager is lying about being a Day 1 Double Voter, we can find out and hash it out on Day 2.

But Wisdom is scum.

it's not that i think ucv is

lying

about being a day 1 doublevoter, it's that i think that makes him scum. now, i've certainly been burned in the past many times by being too adamantly against lurker / low-content lynches, but i feel like from wisdom's reaction to the massclaim idea he's town. beeboy went against it but not really in any sort of "attempt to convince town that this is a bad idea" way, but moreso in a "i'll state the obvious and take the position that seems more likely to be townread but without doing so with real conviction" way. compared to wisdom's reaction, it seems townie to me.

Spoiler: beeboy's reaction

Scum likely have some kind of anti claim.

I disagree with this being good play tbh.
If we get 1 scum flip and see a role pm I will reevaluate my opinion.

I mean I guess?

I think the mass claim is going to go one of 2 ways.

We are vanilla setup with your role being the town power in which case we all say "VT".
Or scum have some way to interact with us and claiming is bad.

There is no world where we claim real roles and having a mass claim not be a bad idea.

Spoiler: wisdom's reaction

im against a mass claim; the mod isn't an idiot and has probably accounted for it

i don't, and i find mass claim d1 stupid in any game

im not claiming either

garaputo is right; all youve managed to do is halt the game and let scum hide in "lets claim" posts

"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.

ive played in like 150 games and none of them did it

the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.

Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.

This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now

its like youve never played mafia before

Leaving aside how wrong mass claim is and pretending its something town should want; its ridiculous to think that every townie will be pro massclaim and every scum against it

[northsidegal]

VOTE: radical rat

[northsidegal]

I'll sheep on Wisdom if I have to, but I'd prefer not to since he's town by PoE

what does your process for that poe look like?

[northsidegal]

The only reason Wisdom reacted so much to it was because I pushed him to do so. And I disagree that it was a town reaction. His arguments against were vague and generalized, which suggests that he's leaving himself ample room to not corner himself into a story should a mass claim actually happen.

even if you think his arguments were vague, i'd say that his stance on it was pretty solid. for me, it's the fact that it was this thing that it really seems to me that he has genuine convictions on that got him to start posting that makes him town. like, it feels really genuine that he held the strong opinion that massclaims are bad and that we shouldn't do one. beeboy did what i would think a scum taking that position would do, make their position known but not really attempt to prevent a massclaim at all, given that it still benefits scum for it to happen. if wisdom with scum with beeboy and knew that they had the day-2 vig, i think don't think we would have seen the slight playstyle change that i think exists.

could you elaborate on what you mean by "not corner himself into a story"? it's not like he would have had to claim anything.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: ucv

rat is my least favorite out of the potential three wagons today. i was voting to see where it went – what i got was a pretty scummy hop on. sorry for doing this again at l-1, but i don't want rat lynched just yet.

[northsidegal]

i don't really have anything against rat other than "he hasn't done much". the exact same could be said about ucv, along with the setup spec.

[northsidegal]

and?

[northsidegal]

assuming the game still goes on, last thoughts, kublai?

[northsidegal]

okay, i kept thinking about this day one but i figured you knew your role better than me – you're still alive, kublai? that makes this game so much easier.

[northsidegal]

My thought exactly, but does anyone else think if UCV is scum we're just screwed? I am not prepared to suspect him. With the exception of Khan and UCV, I will lynch everyone else one by one.

tbh Khan I wouldn't be shocked if nsg were scum, and it's not like wisdom will vote for himself.

what? why is ucv your number one townie, the one you'd take into a 3 person lylo along with the ic? just yesterday you were completely prepared to lynch him – what changed?

in fact, i still think i'd prefer lynching ucv over wisdom.

[northsidegal]

@northsidegal: I'm not sure why you'd want to lynch UC Voyager. He's been truthful (assuming..) and if he were scum, he doesn't appear to have an ability to kill.

??? because i think he's scum? it was never about wanting to get rid of the double vote just in case it was scum.

[northsidegal]

i don't understand what's inconvenient about it – i get that he's not lying about being a day one double voter, i've always got that. what i'm asking is why that precludes him from being scum?

[northsidegal]

what incentive did he have to lie? there's literally

no way

that he could have hidden the doublevoting aspect of his role if he intended to use it unlike beeboy who, if i recall correctly, could have dayvigged someone just by pming the mod.

wisdom doesn't seem to be making any effort to win the game, yes, but it also doesn't seem like he's scum coasting – i would presume scum in his situation would at least have

something

to say in the scenario that he's been in. that's not to say that i'm not eventually willing to lynch him if the game continues, just that i think he's more likely to be town than ucv is.

[northsidegal]

Your analysis seems to be ignoring that we had zero idea that he was a double-voter until he made it completely public out of nowhere. You're selling me that that's a scum move?

answer me this – what

would

be a scum way of revealing the double vote, outside of some obvious scenario of using it to quickhammer someone at l-2?

wisdom doesn't seem to be making any effort to win the game, yes, but it also doesn't seem like he's scum coasting – i would presume scum in his situation would at least have

something

to say in the scenario that he's been in. that's not to say that i'm not eventually willing to lynch him if the game continues, just that i think he's more likely to be town than ucv is.

So if Wisdom was scum, he'd be doing exactly what you're doing now?

if by "doing exactly what you're doing now" you mean "saying anything game-relevant at all", then yes, that's what i think he would be doing. if you intended that as pointing out some sort of hypocrisy (which is what it feels like you're insinuating), then i'm not really sure what to say.

[northsidegal]

like, i don't think i can make this clear enough – if ucv intended to use his double vote at all day one, even completely disregarding his alignment i would still expect him to reveal it in the way that he did. it's

completely

non-alignment indicative.

i also think that this conversation has become too focused on who's correct in this argument rather than what it actually means for the game at large, so i'm happy to just stop talking about it if you'd like.

[northsidegal]

That's been one of my points. If he's scum with a public Day 1 only double vote at his disposal, then this is a bastard game where the mod screwed him over.

i still don't see why – how did the mod screw him over? i mean, i can think of reasons why you might think this but none of them make sense to me, so i want to hear your reasoning.

His behavior is causing him to completely fly under your radar. And it's working.

i mean, i'll concede that being averse to lurker lynches has definitely thrown me off in games before, but the fact also exists that many lurkers have been lynched, flipped town, and nothing was really gained. like i said, i'm entirely willing to lynch wisdom, i just think ucv is a better vote. that's all.

[northsidegal]

bujaber's flipping back and forth on the ucv slot is giving me pause. bu, what happened to your ucv hard townread? was it really just an iso reread? why were you townreading him before the iso reread?

[northsidegal]

uc has two votes? works for me

VOTE: uc

no. i only have one now.

[northsidegal]

i dont see north in your list

north is null and your hammered btw

oh am i? well lynch north and then bu and you should win

oh am i? well lynch north and then bu and you should win

? i am assuming you mean you are town. . .

your not hammered btw. notice how i became a VT after day one ended.

your reaction was good

obviously im town, duh

[northsidegal]

bu, for one wisdom quite clearly knew he wasn't dead. for two, what happened to your ucv scumread? do you think it's outside of ucv's scumgame to fake a hammer on someone?

[northsidegal]

i'm still a bit paranoid about your switching but that reaction seems genuine. even if ucv is scum (which i think is the case) i would doubt that he has killing power in addition to the doublevote.

VOTE: ucv

[northsidegal]

wisdom's reaction was utterly meaningless. he knew for a fact the whole time that he wasn't lynched. i didn't think 505 merited a response, but here:

okay guys. we should lynch UCV now that he is VT. because no it isn't a problem. . .

you would think if he thought i would scum, he would vote me when i had that OP ability

that's not at all what bu was saying in the post that you quoted – it's really only a minor part, making this a total misrepresentation. let's review what bu actually said as to why you're scum:

Likewise garap. Yeah I've been townreading you forever, but that is what makes you dangerous alive if we don't lynch scum today, because you could be scum and the only way I'd know is through a guess or process of elimination.


This is frustrating. I get nsg's point.

So I reread UCV's ISO. I should have done it earlier. UCV's ISO is lacking. His RVS vote seems too unrandom. From what I can see the only people he's suspected all game were Rat and me.
From what I gather there is also a meta change from his town game. Whether that definitely means he's scum I'm not sure.

It also occurs to me that just because I was wrong with rat doesn't mean I've been wrong about wisdom/garaputo. And it is very difficult to play if you never trust your reads/instincts.

Okay if UCV is telling the truth and town then he is just a VT now. So worse case scenario we hit another VT.

Because of how wisdom is playing his lynch will always be debated. So maybe we don't need to lynch him first.
Wisdom why are you suspecting nsg?

VOTE: UCV

---

tbh we can just keep lynching until we win

scum dont seem like they can kill after all

My thought exactly, but does anyone else think if UCV is scum we're just screwed? I am not prepared to suspect him. With the exception of Khan and UCV, I will lynch everyone else one by one.

tbh Khan I wouldn't be shocked if nsg were scum, and it's not like wisdom will vote for himself.

hmm. i wonder where his 180 from me being town to me being scum came from. . .

VOTE: BU

i already asked this question – it was literally the very next post in the thread, 444. the fact that you said this tells me that either you deliberately only went through bu's iso with the intention of making a case on him rather than actually trying to sort him, or you deliberately repeated a question that i had already asked and that had already been answered.

[northsidegal]

The POE was total bullshit and it was formed by scum.

by the way, just because someone else comes up with a lynchpool doesn't mean that you

have

to follow it. i'm pretty sure there's also a slight element of hypocrisy in blindly sheeping someone else's poe reads and then turning around and accusing that person of being scum for coming up with those reads.

[northsidegal]

I'd really like it if we lynched someone. Can we make that happen?

hm, you still haven't moved your vote. with this in mind:

I mean you are both not acting like you are town and I'm prepared to see either of you swing. I'd like to use the threat of it to get you both to *do things* that may make it clearer who actually may be town.

is it, for some reason, clear to you that both ucv and wisdom are town?

[northsidegal]

whatever. i'd like to hear kublai's thoughts, i might hammer bu after that.

@mod, prod kublai khan?

[northsidegal]

ucv has already confirmed that he's no longer a double voter. he did the same "vote: both on x" that he did day one and the mod didn't count it here whereas he did yesterday.

[northsidegal]

sheep me!

VOTE: uc voyager

[northsidegal]

nsg fits my idea of perfect scum. Appear town, use townie logic to build cases against those who make weak arguments, stay active but not too active, ask provocative questions that make people feel more confident of themselves. Basically he played me well and I don't even feel like I was played. I was totally behind the UCV lynch, the fact that he flipped town is just an unfortunate result.

hmm, appearing town, using town logic, building cases against scummy people and asking good questions all make me .... scum?

i've heard of "too scummy to be scum" before, but are you trying to sell people "too townie to be town"? that's kind of what it sounds like.

i'm shamelessly lolhammering here. i doubt this flips scum, it'd be nice if it did, if not then tomorrow everyone can hopefully get themselves out of tunnels and discuss.

VOTE: wisdom

[northsidegal]

good game everyone, especially well played by kublai who pretty much caught the scumteam himself. thinking back i should've definitely taken 501 as more of a scumclaim.