Open 705: Polygamist - Game Over


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Post Post #4 (isolation #0) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:29 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

Hello everyone. So, shall we start with claiming lovers?
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #8 (isolation #1) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:37 pm

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1. Let's not play to win, so to speak. Let's just play to play a battle of wits. So, no random lynching.
2. How could claiming lovers not help? Au contraire, since it's a nigthless setup, I think it's our biggest weapon here. If we claim lovers, we force the scum into pairs to begin with. Furthermore, if we have anyone super strong (I don't necessarily know if we do), if scum pressures their partner, it makes it pretty obvious. So, scum has to be careful about pressuring 2 slots in the case of one player being spot-on or whatever.
“Why was I chosen?'
'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #9 (isolation #2) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:38 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

Also, by claiming lovers, it lowers the pool for scum to bus from, and lower the amount of chaos we'd have.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #20 (isolation #3) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:05 pm

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In post 10, Mathdino wrote:The irreversibility of the massclaim made me want to research it more beforehand.

A really good argument in the last Polygamist game (town win) went along the same lines. Claiming lovers means scum can't suddenly decide later on in the day who their "lovers" will be and also makes their defences public.

That said, it would be foolish at this point for scum to not decide beforehand what their "lover" pairs will be so they can act it out come daystart.

So I'm still working out how it actively helps us.

PS. Ahahahaha I just got access to my lover's PT and it was just them saying "hello". Good shit. Thanks for flaking, pisskop.
Yes. While I'm sure they haven't already decided, if they have one really really townread person and one scumread person, then the TR person could take charge and say "I'm lovers with [scumread person] so if you think that they're scum, you think I'm scum". It's to our advantage to claim ASAP.
In post 11, Mathdino wrote:
In post 8, DiamondSentinel wrote:1. Let's not play to win, so to speak. Let's just play to play a battle of wits. So, no random lynching.
Counterproposal. Through the day, we'll probably as a town come together on a townread of someone.

That person will then dice roll 2 lynches that don't include themselves or their lover.

In effect, we'll be playing kingmaker.

If we're right about the king we elect being town, we then have an exactly 70% chance of winning by sheeping them.
Let's not dice-lynch.
“Why was I chosen?'
'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #22 (isolation #4) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:18 pm

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Oh... I was planning on waiting on others to give input since we're not even a page in.

I will wait for a little bit, and then I'll claim. I'll claim at the end of tomorrow, provided there isn't a wide outcry that this is a shit idea]. But I promise I will claim my lover (unless they decide to claim first)

Also, fuck dice lynches. This is a game of "skill" and a battle of "wits". Dice have no place in this.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #47 (isolation #5) » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:52 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

I play to win, too. But I still intend to enjoy myself and get that feeling of "pride and accomplishment" people are always talking about. As such, if you guys dice-lynch, I will replace out immediately, unless the moderator amends the rules to state that you can't dice-lynch (which many mods have anyways)
“Why was I chosen?'
'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #84 (isolation #6) » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:10 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 80, Sky_Paladin wrote:I guess what we are looking for is the set of interactions between declared groups that seem suspicious. If you think of every player group as a hydra, we're looking for the two hydra's that have shady interactions.

So with that in mind I think that the mass claim is probably for the best, and in flagrant disregard of what my lover said earlier, I'll go ahead and declare that I'm paired with DiamonSentinel. Interestingly we both independently hated on the dice routine.

In our topic we basically discussed what the setup was because apparently neither of us read it before signing up, then freaking out when we realised that we had no idea how to scumhunt in this scenario, and then to claim or not claim. We decided we'd just go with the flow, so, here I am, flowing away.

That kinda sounds gross :V
I read it. I was just musing about possible strategies. Anyways, as my partner said, I’m not exactly sure how best to find scum in this situation.

I want to hear everyone sizing up on the rising MathDino wagon. While I don’t like MathDino, I’m a bit contested. In particular, I want amrochora to give some input, because a scumread on Math means a scumread on you.
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Post Post #85 (isolation #7) » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:12 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

Coincidentally, I also want to hear from sheep’s partner. They (sheep) are yapping their gums a lot and it looks like it’s scum trying to bog down the thread.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #87 (isolation #8) » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:24 pm

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I'm not discrediting you. It's just that if I wanted to just go with sheer randomness, I'd go to Vegas. The mentality that "they disagree with me so they must be scum" is absolutely fucking stupid, and for someone who's played mafia as long as you have to say that is absolutely pathetic.

Also, when you addressed my partner with the whole "They bus when applicable" thing, scum do that in every game. Welcome to the game of mafia, kiddo.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #91 (isolation #9) » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:37 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

I'm not saying your idea is wrong. That's clearly false (although considering that town loses this more often than not in practice, we can't count on theory). I'm saying that I'm not willing to play that way.

So, naturally, that means that my read on you and my dislike of your idea are disconnected.

PEdit: Also, if you don't trust your scumreads, then sheep people. The answer to "I don't trust my instincts" is not to say "so fuck everyone else's, let's random vote!"
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #101 (isolation #10) » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:49 pm

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Huh. The amount of accord between Sky and me is unreal, especially considering our planning during the pre-game phase was "Hey, I have no idea what to do, do you?" "Nope" "Oh cool. Well, let's just wing it"
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #113 (isolation #11) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:46 am

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In post 112, manrock wrote:
In post 111, Mathdino wrote:If anyone doesn't believe me on the math side of things, I can write a script in Python (or any programming language that someone else here can verify) that simulates 100 games and shows the winrate.

I'm bored and I could use the programming exercise so Imma go do that now.
question

If we go down the math route can you guys let me make 100 posts this game regardless, so i can go into speakeasy?
1. Just make the posts with actually god damned content or post elsewhere. 100 posts in a game is easy.
2. Why the fuck do you want to join the speakeasy? It’s the shittiest part of the forum, filled with horrible drama political arguing, and just general shiftiness.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #114 (isolation #12) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:46 am

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Shittiness*
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Post Post #128 (isolation #13) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:55 am

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How about this. Let’s lynch MathDino, and if they turn out to be town, we can random Lynch tomorrow.
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Post Post #130 (isolation #14) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:24 am

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In post 129, RedFlavor wrote:I dont really think that mathdino is scum because he was right when he told there were too many town losses and expected winrate is higher when you roll the dice, a scum would not do that

Also why are you suggesting to lynch him
I’m suggesting that he’s scum because he’s scummy.
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Post Post #133 (isolation #15) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:28 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 132, sheepsaysmeep wrote:
In post 128, DiamondSentinel wrote:How about this. Let’s lynch MathDino, and if they turn out to be town, we can random Lynch tomorrow.
this is bullshit
only one random lynch has low chance of hitting scum
But the probability of hitting scum with MathDino is exactly the same as if we lynch randomly.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #137 (isolation #16) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:06 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 135, Mathdino wrote:
In post 132, sheepsaysmeep wrote:
In post 128, DiamondSentinel wrote:How about this. Let’s lynch MathDino, and if they turn out to be town, we can random Lynch tomorrow.
this is bullshit
only one random lynch has low chance of hitting scum
This is also correct.

I could crunch the numbers on our winrate if we made a purposeful D1 lynch and then an arbitrary one tomorrow (such as one decided by the team we lynch today). I'd expect the winrate to be around 50%, but I'm not sure.
Winrate around 50%. Well that’s fine.

Now shut the fuck up about random lynching and actually play the game. If you want to rando-lynch, go to fucking Vegas.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #145 (isolation #17) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:17 pm

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In post 144, sheepsaysmeep wrote:im hard tr'ing mathdino
Naturally you’d TR someone in your randolynch circlejerk
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Post Post #149 (isolation #18) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:38 pm

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My apologies. When I sent that, I was standing in line to check luggage that had taken an hour to get 5 people and was so slow I nearly missed my plane. So naturally I'd be a bit on edge.

My point still stands. Rando-lynching is a crappy idea, and regardless of whether or not I SR Math, I would have still pushed for his PL
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Post Post #180 (isolation #19) » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:09 am

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Only scum would give such a blatantly biased TL;DR like that. You're definitely scum
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Post Post #182 (isolation #20) » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:12 am

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What's the list of lover pairs again?
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Post Post #191 (isolation #21) » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:36 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

VOTE: Toranaga

This slot is bad. His lover isn't much better.
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Post Post #214 (isolation #22) » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:31 am

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I must say, the activity in this game is staggering....

Although that's probably at least partially due to sheep's shitposting, and the competing circlejerks.
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Post Post #222 (isolation #23) » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:31 pm

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In post 218, Sky_Paladin wrote:I’m vla for another 48 hours.

VOTE: sheep I’ll echo Diamond here re shitposting but I’m more concerned with the flippant and mutual townreads sheep and Dino gave each other for no real reason that I can see. However I’m leaning town on Dino atm so.

More of a let’s get this party started than a kill this player out of the game vote.

Hey Sheep, what’s with the page top business?
L
Echo this, as well. As much as I detest Dino and everything they stand for in this game, I also agree that they don't sound like scum. I'll change my vote to the partner that my partner is voting. Out of all the pairs consistently posting, this is definitely the scummiest. I just hope that the scum isn't playing that lurk game...

VOTE: Sheep
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Post Post #312 (isolation #24) » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:47 am

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In post 249, Mathdino wrote:i'm just gonna point out that absolutely no one read my tl;dr all the way through and i know this because of an easter egg i put in it
I saw the easter egg. I just chose to ignore it.
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Post Post #313 (isolation #25) » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:22 am

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In post 257, Mathdino wrote:
@Everyone:
You know the post by post tl;dr I did of the longer posts in the game?

I want everyone to post a tl;dr of their lover PTs with every single post included. Even if your lover already did.
In post 259, Mathdino wrote:
I want DiamondSentinel to go before SkyPaladin.
I am going to blatantly refuse this, and I humbly suggest SkyPaladin to do the same.

I'm done playing your games, Dino. I thought you were just dumbass town, but now I'm convinced that you're scum grasping at whatever straws you can get.

VOTE: Dino
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Post Post #322 (isolation #26) » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:14 am

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In post 319, Mathdino wrote:I admittedly over-rely on slips. I consider your opening to be townslippy enough to consider you town.

So I'll revise.

I can't scumhunt in this game the way that Sky, Diamond, Lalendra, and cy want me to, because day associations are bullshit.

I do believe I can scumhunt through baiting scumslips and figuring out who's lying about their PTs though, because that doesn't rely on the "there are 2 hydrae who are scum together and will interact weirdly in the day thread" theory.

Problem is scumslips almost never actually happen and I didn't expect a situation as blatant as this.
1. Try to actually scumhunt. Don't rely on slips or whatever. Slips
never
actually happen. Not almost never.
Never
. Additionally, stop trying to think this through logically. Mafia is a social game. Social interactions, are by their very nature, illogical. Rather, rely on your gut to determine who is scum and who is not. Your subconscious is a lot better at discerning people's nature than your conscious brain. That's why I'm still wishy washy about my vote on you. I can't tell if you're just ick town, or truly scum.

2. Just because someone's playstyle doesn't strictly align with yours does not make them scum. I detest your playstyle, and how you insist on relying on logic alone, completely removing the social aspect from the game, and it seems that you feel similarly about my playstyle. That's fine. You can refuse to align yourself with my playstyle, and I am going to do the same anyways. Relying on private topics for inconsistencies or scumslips just
doesn't work
. So I refuse to take part in it.

3. I'm refusing to join in your PT-slip witch hunt out of principle. Nothing more.
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Post Post #324 (isolation #27) » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:33 am

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In post 323, Mathdino wrote:Getting tired of this.

1. I've already given massive mountains of evidence that playing this setup socially is anti-town. Gutreads are, in most games, abysmal. The hilarious thing though is I'm gut-townreading Tora/sheep and you're also giving me shit for that.
"ick town" trying to push the objectively pro-town strategy
that you already agreed was pro-town
, and you still accuse me of playing badly. Jesus christ. If you have that little respect for me, meta my towngames and my scumgames to at least see I'm a legitimately good player and I mold my playstyle to my role (role, not alignment) and the setup. Maybe then we can stop this slapfight.

2. Oh screw you. I'm not doing anything to actively stop you from scumhunting. But you're actively hampering the way I play the game. You complain about no content to read. I'm trying to produce content to gut read.

3. ahahahahaha that feel when people's principles lose games
oh man i see this shit all the time
1. Son, you ain't seen nothin yet. I'm fairly accurate, and jokes on you, all my reads are gut. I'm just not charismatic enough to convince others because they insist on "proof" and other lies.

2. Oh, but you are. You've been filling the game with unusable content which is letting the scum hide. Which is why I've determined to lynch you today. Either you're scum hiding other scum (yay) or you're town letting the scum hide. Either way, you gotta go.

3. My principle has yet to lose me a game, tyvm
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Post Post #360 (isolation #28) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:32 am

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Not liking this cy wagon much at all. Considering neither him nor his lover are really defending themselves, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Post Post #362 (isolation #29) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:43 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 361, Lalendra wrote:Honestly I've kind of given up, if I'm going to get lynched D1 because of arbitrary random voting and math, then what's the point in defending? Nothing I say matters if we're just playing the lottery.
Exactly my point.
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Post Post #408 (isolation #30) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:21 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

Math, let me put it simply for you.

In this setup, scum are almost
entirely
incapable of bussing more than one vote at a time. Scum has one loss; that's it. They can't use bussing to get towncred from a flip. (I had originally considered making this a really really big long drawn-out paragraph but I don't really have much more to say. Bussing is just a bad idea for scum.)

Basically, what I was getting at is this: if you think that cy is scum, you're saying that we are the most likely scum-pair.
Is that the hill you are willing to die on?


PEdit: Do scum have daychat? I'm gonna guess that there's no hard defending no matter who the wagon is.

And anyways, I'm not counterwagoning. I've been pushing other people the entire time. I just simple don't SR cy.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #413 (isolation #31) » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:34 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 411, Mathdino wrote:
In post 408, DiamondSentinel wrote:In this setup, scum are almost
entirely
incapable of bussing more than one vote at a time. Scum has one loss; that's it. They can't use bussing to get towncred from a flip. (I had originally considered making this a really really big long drawn-out paragraph but I don't really have much more to say. Bussing is just a bad idea for scum.)

Basically, what I was getting at is this: if you think that cy is scum, you're saying that we are the most likely scum-pair.
Is that the hill you are willing to die on?


PEdit: Do scum have daychat? I'm gonna guess that there's no hard defending no matter who the wagon is.

And anyways, I'm not counterwagoning. I've been pushing other people the entire time. I just simple don't SR cy.
1. I disagree with this 100% and I recommend reading the history of the setup (especially in the cases that mafia won) to see why that's incorrect.
Scum uses bussing to make it look like the wagon is on town. Because if everyone wants to lynch someone, that someone must be town right? (no)

2. Uh, that's a weird question. Sky said that if cy/Lal are scum, there'd probably be a ton of outrage/counterwagoning from another hydra. I pointed out that you guys are literally that hydra, and by his own logic, from my standpoint, cy/Lal could still be scum. That logic works much better if you know that you guys are town.

And I'm not gonna do a "lynch me if I'm wrong" thing, that would be stupid (is that what you're asking?). Like, if cy/Lal are town, then you guys get massive towncred from voting other people all day and giving me/Sheep a ton of pushback on the idea.

3. Don't think so, IIRC from reading the role PMs.

4. Whether or not you intend to counterwagon (or believe it's justified) doesn't change the fact that that's what you're doing. Counterwagoning doesn't have to be intentional.
1. That is strictly because of misassumptions by the town. If town avoids making stupid assumptions like that, then bussing is a bad decision.

2. That's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is for you to realize that this doesn't exist on an isolated stage. Thinking that cy/Lal is scum doesn't exempt you from consequent assumptions: ergo that myself and Sky are the most likely other scum pair.

4. And yet you still tried to make the claim that we were scum without actually making it.
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #436 (isolation #32) » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:33 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 435, Mathdino wrote:Wait okay I found scum guys. Never reread the early game lol.

Read pages 1 and 2 (the source of the best reads) and see how I know a certain couple of players are scum.
Is it Tor? Because that's the most likely scum-slot in that list aside from you and sheep.
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Post Post #448 (isolation #33) » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:17 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 437, Mathdino wrote:
In post 436, DiamondSentinel wrote:
In post 435, Mathdino wrote:Wait okay I found scum guys. Never reread the early game lol.

Read pages 1 and 2 (the source of the best reads) and see how I know a certain couple of players are scum.
Is it Tor? Because that's the most likely scum-slot in that list aside from you and sheep.
If that's your guess, tell me how I know.
All my reads are gut.
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Post Post #602 (isolation #34) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:16 am

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In post 460, MathBlade wrote:Isn’t that like against site rules?
Welcome to my struggle this entire game.
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Post Post #603 (isolation #35) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:21 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 537, MathBlade wrote:
In post 80, Sky_Paladin wrote:I guess what we are looking for is the set of interactions between declared groups that seem suspicious. If you think of every player group as a hydra, we're looking for the two hydra's that have shady interactions.

So with that in mind I think that the mass claim is probably for the best, and in flagrant disregard of what my lover said earlier, I'll go ahead and declare that I'm paired with DiamonSentinel. Interestingly we both independently hated on the dice routine.

In our topic we basically discussed what the setup was because apparently neither of us read it before signing up, then freaking out when we realised that we had no idea how to scumhunt in this scenario, and then to claim or not claim. We decided we'd just go with the flow, so, here I am, flowing away.

That kinda sounds gross :V
You mean here?

Why did you claim despite your claim that your lover suggesting you hide it?
I told Sky to hide it because Sky was an unknown in my strategy. If I could control what they did, then that would remove a wild-card from my "team's" actions.
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Post Post #620 (isolation #36) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:22 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 617, Mathdino wrote: - okay so Diamond wants to claim, but that's irreversible, so lemme check first
- wait okay i saw a game that said we should wait for claims
- wait but the scum probably already planned out the claims anyway, so yeah i might as well claim
- okay a random lynch is pro-town, but how the hell are we gonna achieve a random lynch?
- the rest of the town has absolutely 0 reason to trust me. i'm never going to personally roll a die that could land on me. but from an observer's standpoint, if i'm scum and i roll, scum wins 70%. so in order to show good faith in my strategy, i need to find a townie and get them to do it.
- tora seems town and the way they're acting towards me seems pretty town.
- okay i'll lock them as town and try to get them to roll the dice and see what the rest of the town thinks about it
- okay the town fucking hates that idea but their RVS vote is equivalent to a random vote. so i can show the same good faith by sheeping that initial random vote and following their vote anywhere, because sheep's reads are equivalent to a dice roll.
1. "Let's do what other games have done" is a bad sentiment because the actual winrate is horribly below what it should be.
2. Have some good sportsmanship, kiddo. Random lynching isn't sportsmanlike. It's just boring. See: Most every other post I made on the topic.
3. Hey, there's a decent thought process that I can actually discuss. So, yes, RVS is random voting. That's the point of it.
However
, RVS isn't the be-all-end-all, and should never be. Rather it jumpstarts the game. Which is what it didn't get the chance to do.

But enough theory talk. On the last one, why did you sheep sheep? You claim to think exclusively logically, but you have yet to give me good reasons why sheep is town.
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Post Post #627 (isolation #37) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:42 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 625, momo wrote:
Spoiler: mathdino self iso
In post 623, Mathdino wrote:
LITERALLY A CASE ON MY OWN PROGRESSION, NOT DOING THIS AGAIN

In post 6, Mathdino wrote:I don't know about claiming lovers yet. I'm gonna check game history and see what They Who Came Before Us thought on the matter.
I was young and naive on post 6. At this point, I'd only read the setup. Hadn't done any serious reading.
In post 7, Mathdino wrote:Yeah okay so NO ONE CLAIM YOUR LOVERS YET

The wiki suggests that claiming early is bad but I'm still working through the literature on the subject

Another interesting thing is that lynching completely randomly actually benefits town. The problem is that random lynches don't happen because scum won't let it. I would actually be done with creating a townbloc that follows a dice tag in the thread. Would give us a 60% chance.

Not voting because it'll be obvious that whomever I vote isn't my lover.
At this point, I had ONLY read the entire wiki page. You can see this because I'm literally just parroting statements that the wiki page made. See for yourself.
In post 8, DiamondSentinel wrote:1. Let's not play to win, so to speak. Let's just play to play a battle of wits. So, no random lynching.
2. How could claiming lovers not help? Au contraire, since it's a nigthless setup, I think it's our biggest weapon here. If we claim lovers, we force the scum into pairs to begin with. Furthermore, if we have anyone super strong (I don't necessarily know if we do), if scum pressures their partner, it makes it pretty obvious. So, scum has to be careful about pressuring 2 slots in the case of one player being spot-on or whatever.
1. I basically ignored this as much as possible because I disagree with that philosophy.
2. This was slightly convincing to me but I wanted to read up first.
In post 9, DiamondSentinel wrote:Also, by claiming lovers, it lowers the pool for scum to bus from, and lower the amount of chaos we'd have.
This was bullshit. Feel free to ask me why but yeah.
In post 11, Mathdino wrote:Counterproposal. Through the day, we'll probably as a town come together on a townread of someone. That person will then dice roll 2 lynches that don't include themselves or their lover. In effect, we'll be playing kingmaker. If we're right about the king we elect being town, we then have an exactly 70% chance of winning by sheeping them.
This is me trying to come up with a compromise idea. The kingmaker idea came from me saying "Okay, they want a battle of wits, and townhunting is, to some extent, a battle of wits, so the townie can just rando the lynches". I was not, at this point in time, as nihilistic as I later became.
In post 13, Sky_Paladin wrote:My quick scan sees dice rolling as a tactic suggested. I appreciate the idea behind it but how to know that mafia aren’t loading the dice?
Also I kind of feel that using dice to decide goes against the spirit of the game.
The first point was bad because dice tags (remember that I came up with this idea knowing dice tags existed). Mafia cannot load dice.
I ignored the second point.
In post 18, Mathdino wrote:I propose electing someone we think is town to roll the dice and vote for someone other than them and their lover. So yes it would involve them loading the dice but they wouldn't be able to control the dice. No one would.
This is me formalising my idea on the philosophy that *I* can't the roll the dice because I could be scum, but it shows very good faith to have *someone else* roll the dice. My fatal flaw was that I started this too early, before we could locktown anyone by playing the game. Once I suggested this, I was doomed to pretty much have shit reads (because saying this changed the game).
In post 15, sheepsaysmeep wrote:wassup
In post 16, sheepsaysmeep wrote:happy new years
bye
In post 19, sheepsaysmeep wrote:i support claiming lovers
tl from diamond
I obviously had no reason to townread any of this.
In post 20, DiamondSentinel wrote:Yes. While I'm sure they haven't already decided, if they have one really really townread person and one scumread person, then the TR person could take charge and say "I'm lovers with [scumread person] so if you think that they're scum, you think I'm scum". It's to our advantage to claim ASAP.

Let's not dice-lynch.
The first point is what finally convinced me that claiming lovers was important. So congrats on that I guess. I also realised that scum probably coordinated claims in the PT. Which is probably bullshit since half the scum probably wasn't even there.
And I didn't really give a shit that you didn't wanna dice lynch.
In post 21, Mathdino wrote:Yeah that's fair. I guess me claiming doesn't really benefit me or town, but scum claiming does, so it's best to set a precedent. Yo I'm lovers with Amrororawrachurrochora. Your turn?

Also why not dice lynch?
Here I finally claim because your claim logic was solid, even if it provides a marginal advantage. I asked if you wanted to not dicelynch on the hopes that you had a better strategy.
In post 22, DiamondSentinel wrote:Also, fuck dice lynches. This is a game of "skill" and a battle of "wits". Dice have no place in this.
You did not. This is where our battle began.
In post 23, RedFlavor wrote:Hello
Happy new years
Lets random lynch, mathdinos counterproposal seems interesting
Idk if we should claim lovers or not
The first post that wasn't from me or your slot. By this point I was lowkey in kingmaker mode, so I was on the lookout for things to townread.
My gut said to townread this because he agreed. But then I realised he might be dumb scum (not inconsistent with RedFlavor) who didn't realise that my idea was good and that random lynching would actually likely fuck him over.
In post 24, Mathdino wrote:I wonder if we'd have a higher chance of winning this game by playing kingmaker then, where the king we make straight up chooses the lynch straight up. We model open games by assuming random lynch; the flaw being that lynches aren't random, and in a game with such a high percentage of scum, lynching scum is unlikely. I wonder if we'd have better odds trying to townhunt and sheep. Will come up with a model and get back to this.
This is the point at which I was also beginning my Econ 101 class. You can kinda tell. I'm also, once again, just repeating things the wiki said.
You can see the beginnings of my "easier to townhunt than scumhunt" strategy. The idea at the time was that it's far more likely for the town to agree on a towniest member and be right, than it is for the "town" to agree on a scummiest person and be right. Doing this was a political move in an attempt to counteract the scum's weight.

So I go off to actually factcheck my own kingmaker strategy.
In post 25, Toranaga wrote:random lynch GOAT

also I'm lovers with someone I forgot which makes me lock town

also never lynching amrochora even if she is a wolf
In post 26, Toranaga wrote:
In post 14, LlamaFluff wrote:
sheepsaysmeep replaces jzhenson93
ah ok it was literally this guy

hi sheep
In post 27, Mathdino wrote:^i unironically believe this shit at face value and will in return also never lynch toranaga/sheep

Great progress on the scumhunting front, folks.

I on the other hand have made no progress in modeling kingmaking polygamist vs normal lynch polygamist. See you next year.
FINALLY my first townread. I townread this slot because I interpret "I forgot who I'm lovers with" as a slight townslip. Plus hypothetical scum buddying up to my slot read as a very very bad idea if they knew my slot was town. I recognised that doing this mutual townread would be scummy as shit but it was also my best lead.

You'll notice that I came up with a townread before I came up with a kingmaker idea. My intent at first was to PoE the scum by townhunting.
In post 28, Mathdino wrote:An argument that jzhenson and my slot are both town: Scum loves to whine to the mod when one of their members straight up doesn't show up. These fuckers didn't post a single thing in their PTs (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong Tora) for 3 fucking days and the mod still started the game. Locktown.

VOTE: Lalendra as good a PoE vote as any
Here I came up with another reason that the 2 guys who got replaced on gamestart are town.
Since I was still into a random lynch idea, I just arbitrarily'd someone who wasn't here yet.
In post 31, Toranaga wrote:I'm only now reading the game properly, and for some reason I thought you were lovers with pisskop :P just realised you're the replacement and lovers with amrochora.

I thought we should all claim, because then you can read one or both heads of a lover claim as scummy and that's where you wanna lynch.
1. More townslippiness.
2. The second argument makes no sense at all and reads as VI town coming up with an original idea. I ask myself, does this make sense as something scum would say?
No, it has 0 utility. Asking everyone else to claim doesn't help scum.
In post 33, Toranaga wrote:I kinda like this game now lol

I expect it to be filled with replacements if it takes too long though
Oh how wrong you were on point 1 and how right you were on point 2.
In post 35, Toranaga wrote:LOL

there's a good chance both amrochora and manrock forgot all about this game

it's too bad, I like playing with them

also I believe you too. game highly POE'd down already imo
Again buddies up to my slot (low utility as scum) and then intends to use it for PoE. PoEing my slot out of the lynchpool doesn't help scum at all.
In post 44, sheepsaysmeep wrote:VOTE: cy

no one showing up :'(
The first RVS vote by a slot I trusted.
In post 45, Mathdino wrote:VOTE: cy

Sheeping sheep. Sheep me!
Because I wanted to make a truly arbitrary vote that would also be arbitrary to you guys, I couldn't just random vote someone myself. Because I could be scum choosing to vote town.
In order to show my good faith and true belief in my strat, I had to sheep someone else I was townreading (already was) on whoever they vote. My honest willingness to vote literally anyone that sheep voted would, I hoped, help convince you guys I was town, and thus my strategy was in good faith.
Note that my theory of this setup is that while in a normal game, mafia doesn't care who we lynch while town does? In this game, mafia heavily cares who we lynch while town doesn't (or shouldn't). I hoped it would become obvious that I wouldn't put the lynch in some total rando's hands if I were scum (because we could just accidentally lynch my partners, or the person I sheep could decide to lynch me/Amro).
The reason I sheeped sheep is because sheep voted first. That's it. Otherwise I'd have said sheep Tora.

Note: I'm gonna repeat this. Yes, I said I intentionally acted in a way to convince you guys I was town. Do not take this out of context. I specifically did that because a common Open Queue trope is someone breaking the setup and the rest of the town being like WELL WHAT IF YOU'RE SCUM MANIPULATING THE POWER ROLES or WHAT IF YOUR STRATEGY SECRETLY BENEFITS SCUM. I did not want to deal with this bullshit. Unfortunately, I had to anyway.
In post 48, Mathdino wrote:Well sheep's vote is equivalent to a dice lynch so why not compromise and join the locktown wagon?
This is why I liked RVS. Don't bitch to me about theory or why we use RVS. I wanted to use it to generate a truly random vote from my perspective. The ONLY way that vote wasn't totally random from my perspective is if the scumteam was me/lover/sheep/Tora, which I figured people would think is crazy. Lo and behold, the people who started proposing that 20 years later are exactly the people that have always been in my lynchpool.


You have achieved status.....hard core town read!
Which is where I'm conflicted.

My gut says hardcore town. Everything's genuine. But if they're truly only going to sheep sheep, then I can't allow either them or sheep to get to tomorrow. Because I'm not convinced that Math is willing to open their mind to the possibility (probability) that sheep is scum. Also, the fact that I just can't consciously believe that they could possibly be town.

But at some point, I'll probably just give up and let my gut take over.
In post 626, Mathdino wrote:I'll give you even more, because I seriously don't want questions on this shit.

Tora was my very first townread. I believe this makes that read more worthwhile. Over the course of the next few pages (read them) I came to a lowkey townread on RedFlavor/manrock but no other real reads. I thought about how everything I was reading was basically null and realised that this setup is shit for me because I scumhunt at my best with flips.

I believe that more time without lynching gives scum more time to manipulate me or learn to figure out what I townread people for. I literally asked the mod to SHORTEN the deadline so we can actually get a flip. With the exception of that early townread, almost all of my tells became null over the next 20 pages, as I realised that people were figuring out what I might read them for and thus scum would act in such a way as to get townread.

The moment I suggested a strategy of "Let's find the towniest townie" and "Let's PoE" I had to start nulling things. Every scum would want to be in that PoE block. And there's no accountability for that hypothetical PoE block because 2 lynches and we lose.

So that's why my reads haven't budged. I'm also afraid that my read was originally right (often my earliest strongest read is right) and any discussion with you guys would lead to either
A. You guys manipulating me out of my read
or
B. You guys manipulating EVERYONE ELSE out of my read. And I needed another pair that I believe is town and that everyone else believes is town in order for my strategy to be manipulated.

Edit: I don't intend you to, sheep.
If you want to avoid people manipulating you, read the posts without reading who posted it. Your subconscious will sort through things way better than you can, because you're peppered with emotion. The gut is just naturally good at determining whether to trust people. When you find a good post, look at the name and amend your reads.

Of course, this could be a crock of shit. I'm spitballing here.
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Post Post #629 (isolation #38) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:07 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 628, Mathdino wrote:Yeah I mean. I don't doubt that what you're telling me is exactly identical to what you'd tell me as town. And you I think you at this point believe that what I'm telling you is also what I'd tell you as town. We're at a playstyle impasse.

I mean would you be more comfortable if I promised you that against all my wishes I'll just lynch sheep/Tora tomorrow after you die? My issue is that I've already established myself as locking sheep as town, and breaking that promise would fully give everyone the right to lynch me for that.
I'd
lynch me for that. I'm not in the business of doing things that literally make me deserve a lynch under my own principles.
You could just not lynch me. I mean, you admit here that you think I'd say the exact same thing town or scum. So why are you attempting to lynch me? Is it because I've been at odds with your 2 biggest efforts here?
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'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
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Post Post #659 (isolation #39) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:09 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 631, MathBlade wrote:
In post 603, DiamondSentinel wrote:
In post 537, MathBlade wrote:
In post 80, Sky_Paladin wrote:I guess what we are looking for is the set of interactions between declared groups that seem suspicious. If you think of every player group as a hydra, we're looking for the two hydra's that have shady interactions.

So with that in mind I think that the mass claim is probably for the best, and in flagrant disregard of what my lover said earlier, I'll go ahead and declare that I'm paired with DiamonSentinel. Interestingly we both independently hated on the dice routine.

In our topic we basically discussed what the setup was because apparently neither of us read it before signing up, then freaking out when we realised that we had no idea how to scumhunt in this scenario, and then to claim or not claim. We decided we'd just go with the flow, so, here I am, flowing away.

That kinda sounds gross :V
You mean here?

Why did you claim despite your claim that your lover suggesting you hide it?
I told Sky to hide it because Sky was an unknown in my strategy. If I could control what they did, then that would remove a wild-card from my "team's" actions.
Then why not explain the entire plan to your partner?

That’s what I am not following.

It feels like Sky just made up something and y’all are scrambling to justify it.

Furthermore do you have a townread on Lalendra or cytheflyguy?
I didn't explain everything to my partner because I just came out of Perpetual MyLo, where, for the most part, everyone else in the scum team was incompetent and screwed everything up. This is roughly the same deal: I'm teamed with someone, and we have to work together to win the game. I came in not trusting anyone, especially my own partner.

I do have a null!town on Lalendra. Cy hasn't done anything noteworthy.
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Post Post #660 (isolation #40) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:14 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 630, Mathdino wrote:
In post 629, DiamondSentinel wrote:You could just not lynch me. I mean, you admit here that you think I'd say the exact same thing town or scum. So why are you attempting to lynch me? Is it because I've been at odds with your 2 biggest efforts here?
This current conversation you've been having with me, and the last 5 billion convos you've been having with me about theory, are not why I or my partner is scumreading you.

It's kind of a utility lynch. I don't believe, at this point, that you'll vote with the townbloc I'm personally relying on for LyLo. I believe your read on me has been too set in stone for that. So assuming you're town, if I don't lynch you today, then I have to 100% find the scumteam today. And my strategy doesn't have any way to reliably find scum on D1. The point is to aggregate D1 and D2.

Yes, it's lowkey OMGUS, but here's an analogy.
You're a townie with 1 scum left. 5 players. One player who is a little scummy by association has been gunning for you the whole game. You have little reason to believe they'll change their mind in LyLo. Furthermore, you know for sure that if they're town, scum will leave them alive and let them lynch you in LyLo.

You can't lynch scum if they're alive tomorrow unless scum happens to be them and you can convince the remaining townie. But the player has a chance at convincing that townie.

So you prepare yourself for LyLo by lynching that player, praying to god they're scum (and they are scummy) and then saying, well, I had to lynch someone only for them to flip town, I'd rather it be them. This at least puts you in an okay spot later on.

I'm honestly not sure any of the above is even town indicative. I haven't thought through it but it's possibly also scum's ideal strategy if they were in my slot.

We're at a really really weird impasse.

I assume you want me to lynch sheep/Tora today.
You realize that you don't have to win every battle in order to get a lynch. Your "utility" lynch is a shitty reason. If you don't believe that I would work with you, then you could go for my partner.

But regardless.

Your analogy just doesn't make sense to me. Nobody's reads are unshakable. I thrive on reversing peoples reads. Or at least delaying it as long as possible. Kinda my trademark. The only thing that I would ever suggest a policy/utility lynch for would be just straight-up bad play; someone [
cough sheep cough
refusing to actually try in the game. To say "this person disagrees with me so we should lynch them" is almost exactly like a scum telling their buddies "this person is on to us, so kill them".

As for the sheep/tora lynch? Yes. It's definitely my strongest read. Sheep is blatantly scum, and also is just playing (if you can even call it that) shittily. He's not even trying. Regular lynch + policy lynch = yes please lynch
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Post Post #661 (isolation #41) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:16 pm

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In post 645, MathBlade wrote:I am just curious. Diamond Sentinel has played with me enough to read me.

Yet he only talks Dino. Why? Because Diamond is scum.
Since you replaced in, I've been keeping up almost none at all. I'm just in an extended conversation with Dino. That's why I'm essentially jsut responding to him, aside from a couple posts here and there.

RL's a bitch. I'm just catching up real fast before I go to bed. Which is to say, in about 10 minutes.

Kindly don't lynch me while I'm asleep. Bitch move. And the rest of the town, if someone does hammer me overnight, please lynch them with fire tomorrow. kthanks
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Post Post #663 (isolation #42) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:19 pm

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In other news, Sky, stop fucking wagon hopping. It's hard enough for me to deal with this wagon without you floundering here and there.

Anyways, VOTE: sheep. This is where my vote stays for the rest of the day.

(Oh, also, Math, would you stop sucking at reading me? This is 3 games in a row you've misread me completely)
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Post Post #664 (isolation #43) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:19 pm

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(talking to MathBlade)
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Post Post #669 (isolation #44) » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:45 pm

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In post 665, Mathdino wrote:
In post 660, DiamondSentinel wrote:The only thing that I would ever suggest a policy/utility lynch for would be just straight-up bad play; someone [cough sheep cough refusing to actually try in the game. To say "this person disagrees with me so we should lynch them" is almost exactly like a scum telling their buddies "this person is on to us, so kill them".

As for the sheep/tora lynch? Yes. It's definitely my strongest read. Sheep is blatantly scum, and also is just playing (if you can even call it that) shittily. He's not even trying. Regular lynch + policy lynch = yes please lynch
You seem not only unaware of sheep's meta of being shitty but also not willing to consider it.

@Sky/Diamond:
I'll give you guys a chance here.

I need you to do 2 things to shake my sheep read.

1.
sheep
: This looks strongly like policy territory. I need you to do a case that points out scum motivation in his posts and gets me a scumpartner set. I'm obviously personally disinclined to lynch someone who's at least willing to follow my logic. And don't give me the general "oh sheep skates along and does nothing all game" because you know, I replaced into his townslot once, I know this. Literally a shitposting middle schooler.

2.
Tora
: The reason I'm not shaking this read is the repeated townslips. I need you to get me evidence (ideally based on meta) that "townslips" are NAI and are faked by Tora. Also need evidence for open buddying of town. That part less so.

Do this and I'll strongly consider voting either sheep/Tora, or whomever you think is their partner (I would be more comfortable with this).
Get me the supposed townslips, and I'll start delving into Tora's meta. But as it is right now, I haven't seen any townslips (also, do note that I likely won't believe any of them are truly townslips. Neither town, nor scumslips happen and are caught. The only ones I personally know about are slips that happen and just skirt by because nobody thinks about them. Blatant ones seemingly never happen.
In post 666, Mathdino wrote:
In post 659, DiamondSentinel wrote:I do have a null!town on Lalendra. Cy hasn't done anything noteworthy.
Also how the fuck are you nulltowning Lalendra?

I asked her for a Last Will set of reads and she completely ignored it. Wtf in her ISO indicates town?

Talk to me as if you believe I'm town. I'm obviously unwilling to listen to "she pushed against the scum in you/sheep/Tora".
It's a gut read, kiddo. Just like I've got you in a gut-town read, despite everything, she's in the same boat right here.

(Also, what was that second part? I don't quite understand it)
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Post Post #678 (isolation #45) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:19 am

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In post 675, MathBlade wrote:
In post 663, DiamondSentinel wrote:In other news, Sky, stop fucking wagon hopping. It's hard enough for me to deal with this wagon without you floundering here and there.

Anyways, VOTE: sheep. This is where my vote stays for the rest of the day.

(Oh, also, Math, would you stop sucking at reading me? This is 3 games in a row you've misread me completely)
Uhmmm the last game that just finished I was scum sooo I didn’t read you and this is notably different? If you’re gonna say I suck be factual about it.

I don’t see sheep being scum like ever.
Ah, good. So the mod lied to me in deadchat. Regardless, I asked one question in deadchat and then left. That game disgusted me. Unprofessional modding promoted a toxic play environment.
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Post Post #679 (isolation #46) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:25 am

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Anyways, game at hand. MathBlade, why exactly do you insist that I'm scum here? My wagon seems to have sprouted because Dino didn't agree with my sentiments, sheep blatantly OMGUSing, and then everyone sheeping him because shitposting?
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Post Post #704 (isolation #47) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:44 am

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In post 685, MathBlade wrote:
In post 679, DiamondSentinel wrote:Anyways, game at hand. MathBlade, why exactly do you insist that I'm scum here? My wagon seems to have sprouted because Dino didn't agree with my sentiments, sheep blatantly OMGUSing, and then everyone sheeping him because shitposting?
Wagon analysis and your partner’s wagon flopping looks like flirting with danger.
Yay... So it's nothing to do with me.

You asked why I didn't tell my partner my plan? This is why.
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Post Post #705 (isolation #48) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:50 am

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So, since nobody seems keen on actually reading what I'm saying, I'll go ahead and spell out the progression of my thought process.

Pre-game:

Wow. Perpetual MyLo fucking sucked, so I can't trust anyone, especially people I know are on my team. Time to go solo at this.

Game-start:

Information is our goal here. The sooner we can lock the scum into associations, the less wiggle room they have, and the more we have to work with.
[enter MathDino] Oh great... Already talk of a rando-lynch.
[inaudible screeching] fuck rando-lynch
If they don't stop talking about rando-lynch, I will replace out. I'll give them like 3 days.

Meat and Potatoes of the Game:

Well, I can't convince anyone worth a damn, so as long as my partner is making intelligent lynches that I'm not completely opposed to, I guess I'll just sheep them. Not a huge fan, but that gets us 2 guaranteed votes on a wagon, so it's a start.
Oh hey, this is going terribly. These votes are getting more and more spastic.
Aaaaaaand now there's a wagon. Everyone's my enemy here; go on the defensive.
Hey, more flailing by my partner. plz stop
Fighting Math and Math. Not exactly my favorite situation to be in...
Welp, if I die here, I'm gonna assume it's auto-lose for town. I've seen nothing to the contrary to suggest that the town isn't going to let scum lead them straight off a cliff.
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Post Post #707 (isolation #49) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:56 am

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And now we here! My to-do list.
  • Don't bother ISOing MathDino. As much as they piss me off, I'm going with them being town. Same with MathBlade. There will be negligible progress there, if any.
  • Don't bother ISOing sheep. 100% shitposting
  • Maybe site-ISO Tor? I dunno. I don't even see any townslips in their ISO, which also knocks MathDino off the townlist quite a lot, tbh. Until Math actually tells me the supposed townslip, this is not happening.
  • Investigate whether or not anyone else has a worthy ISO. Momo's putting up some red flags here and there. Lal and Cy could use an ISO to see if they are really worthy of my townread. Kop doesn't have enough content, looking at his ISO length. (But momo and Cy both have only marginally more content. This is not working out in my favor)
Yep. So, right now, there's nothing productive I can really do aside from ISO dive through a single 35 post ISO and a bunch of <20 post ones.
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Post Post #711 (isolation #50) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:19 am

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In post 708, Mathdino wrote:Self thought progression checks out.

Tora townslip is forgetting who his lover was and then forgetting who other people's lovers are. Also buddying up to me should be a major red flag/thing-to-avoid as scum.
The first thing is completely not a townslip. The second thing is likely not a townslip, or else I've been townslipping myself the entire time because I never know who anyone's lovers are. I only vaguely know now because of all the wagons.

The third is a townslip because.... why?
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Post Post #712 (isolation #51) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:21 am

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Alright math. You have a possible team. If you are truly as open to me being town as you suggest you are, then let's pursue sheep/tora/red/manrock as a team. I don't remember anything noteworthy from the latter two, but the former 2 are hitting some red flags.
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Post Post #736 (isolation #52) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:43 pm

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In post 720, Mathdino wrote:
In post 705, DiamondSentinel wrote:Welp, if I die here, I'm gonna assume it's auto-lose for town. I've seen nothing to the contrary to suggest that the town isn't going to let scum lead them straight off a cliff.
wait lol this is scum
town would be more interested in last words and directing tomorrow's lynch
but anyway
Read (as much as it pains me) The Mod is Mafia. That was my exact sentiment there, kiddo. Don't act like you can case me like you can everyone else on-site. I'm convinced that a town that would mislynch me is just laying down and letting the mafia walk all over them.
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Post Post #741 (isolation #53) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:31 pm

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Whatever. I'm kinda done dealing with this. When/if you lynch me, I hope for your sake you're scum, or else you need to never play mafia again, considering you're making up reasons to lynch me, and are now going back and forth on your reads on me and your partner.

First it's Sky's wagon hopping. Now they're being super townie. And this is all in the span of under a day.

PEdit: Sky, it's useless. This town hasn't been willing to believe us/townread us since we both took offense at Math's rando-lynch strat. It's not a matter of "I'm right/you're wrong'. It's a matter of "Nobody even bothers trying to listen to what I have to say" at this point. Every god damned game a scum starts a wagon on me and the rest of the town is just like "omg yeah they don't fit current meta lynch with fire" and lo and behold, I flip town. Can't remember the last time I got lynched as scum. Probably SaGa Frontier, when I was unlynchable.
At this point it's just me pissed off, as I am every town game because nobody bothers to try and read me.
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Post Post #857 (isolation #54) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:36 pm

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In post 780, sheepsaysmeep wrote:yeah i need to free up some time can we just thunderdome two lynches
I know what I said in the past, but are we just ignoring this scumslip? Like, this is a blatant scumslip.

Can we deal with this here? Please?
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Post Post #858 (isolation #55) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:37 pm

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In post 854, Sky_Paladin wrote:I don't really see it as a scum slip for the same reason I don't accept pretty much every 'townslip' that I see; context is easy to misrep or misread in a forum based game.

I do have some other thoughts that I will share in my next big catch up but I can't really do anything right now.
Agreed. MathDino's could be a scumslip, but could just as easily not be one.

However, I think that sheep's is almost 100% a scumslip.
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Post Post #860 (isolation #56) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:53 pm

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In post 859, RedFlavor wrote:
In post 857, DiamondSentinel wrote:
In post 780, sheepsaysmeep wrote:yeah i need to free up some time can we just thunderdome two lynches
I know what I said in the past, but are we just ignoring this scumslip? Like, this is a blatant scumslip.

Can we deal with this here? Please?
What is thunderdome
Essentially speedlynch.
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Post Post #890 (isolation #57) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:33 am

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Alright. We've got 11 days to finish this up.

I don't particularly see cy as scum, however, I'm definitely not ruling out that I'm just wrong here. Sell me on this.

On the other hand, sell me why sheep!pair specifically isn't scum.
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Post Post #917 (isolation #58) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:39 pm

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I'm committing to a sheep lynch anyways.
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Post Post #919 (isolation #59) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:54 pm

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I've considered it greatly. If sheep is town, then that means that, likely, Math is town. About a 60/40 there.

Kop/Momo has about a 75/25 chance of being scum.

Red/Hyrule is about a 50/50. Their general posting is town-like, but it seems like just the right amount of distancing that they could be scum.

Cy/Lalendra sits about 60/40 in favor of scum. Regardless of their alignment, sheep's cases shall be given no salt whatsoever, and their readlists to be ignored. They only sit at 60/40 because that means that Dino was right about sheep being town, which leads credence to their reads in general.
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Post Post #921 (isolation #60) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:08 pm

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...

Math, are you even reading?

1. No PT fuckups.
2. "setting up non-Mop lynch tomorrow" Mop is literally my most likely lynch if sheep is scum.
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Post Post #930 (isolation #61) » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:40 pm

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EBWOP: Mop is my most likely lynch if sheep isn't scum.
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Post Post #952 (isolation #62) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:53 am

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In post 932, Sky_Paladin wrote:@Diamond
If the lynch on Cy goes through, won't have alignment information on Sheep. Presuming Cy flips green, where do you lynch?

I understand you want a sheep lynch this phase but I don't see any strategy for trying to actually make that happen. So I am interested in scenario's that are more likely to happen.
Cy flips green?

I look at sheep being about 80/20 scum. Math 65-70/30-35 scum. Red still about 60/40 town. Kop at about 55/45 town. Cy being town puts sheep/Math as the most likely scumteam given this constant push.
In post 935, MathBlade wrote:
In post 919, DiamondSentinel wrote:I've considered it greatly. If sheep is town, then that means that, likely, Math is town. About a 60/40 there.

Kop/Momo has about a 75/25 chance of being scum.

Red/Hyrule is about a 50/50. Their general posting is town-like, but it seems like just the right amount of distancing that they could be scum.

Cy/Lalendra sits about 60/40 in favor of scum. Regardless of their alignment, sheep's cases shall be given no salt whatsoever, and their readlists to be ignored. They only sit at 60/40 because that means that Dino was right about sheep being town, which leads credence to their reads in general.
So ...Then if you’re at 60/40 and your partner is convinced Cy is scum (as evidenced by their vote) why do you not vote with them?
Kiddo. Actually read. There's the assumption "if and only if sheep flips green, then Cy sits at 60/40 scum".

In other news, Math!scum is shooting up massively because MathBlade flat out not reading is a major scumtell.
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Post Post #953 (isolation #63) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:55 am

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In post 951, Kop wrote:is it hammer time?
You hammer this, and if they flip green, I will 100% powerlynch you tomorrow, reads be damned.
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Post Post #955 (isolation #64) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:58 am

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Because unlike you, some people actually have things to say, and expect answers.
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Post Post #1010 (isolation #65) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:38 pm

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Thanks for calling me a stubborn ass. It's flattering.

Anyways, I'm not hammering cy because I just don't SR cy really at all.
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Post Post #1014 (isolation #66) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:57 pm

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I am prone to emotional outbursts. Working on that. Also, yes. I do tend to say kiddo a lot, especially when I'm annoyed/exasperated with someone.
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Post Post #1019 (isolation #67) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:36 pm

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MathBlade, the thing is not that I see them as town. It's just that I
don't see anything that screams "I'm scum" in their ISO
, and I see even less in their partner's ISO, and the fact that you keep pressuring for people to read Cy while ignoring Lalendra is ringing a lot of bells in my head.

Dino, I know my own alignment. Scum can't bus at L-1, especially considering that I could just flippantly throw a vote on Cy. Therefore, that leaves Red as the last alternative for a scumteam with Cy. If you want me to hammer, you need to not only convince me that Cy/Lalendra are scum, but also that they're a teammate for Red!team.

Make your case.
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Post Post #1035 (isolation #68) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:19 pm

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Fine. VOTE: Cy

There's one lurker out. Sorry Lalendra, but it's apparent that Math!team is completely hellbent on just sitting on a plurality wagon until the end of time, so I can't win out a waiting game here.

But Math, if/when they flip green, I call the shots tomorrow. And none of that "Diamond hammered so they must be scum" bull crap.

But before the day ends, Math, you realize that your little scheme has more holes than a wiffleball made of swiss cheese, right? Me holding the wagon at a standstill by threatening people to not hammer
doesn't
help scum!me. There will be a plurality lynch at deadline anyways, so stalling the wagon flat out doesn't work.

Also, I'm hammering it because a. not hammering won't fix a thing with sheep being scum and you acting like a child with their fingers in their ears like "la la la I can't hear you", and b. Partially just because I feel like proving you wrong that I wouldn't flippantly vote and that I won't hammer.
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Post Post #1042 (isolation #69) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:39 pm

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Haha. Well, that was disappointing. Lurksack scum.

Anyways, I will point out that, contrary to what you said, none of the scum bussed.
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Post Post #1045 (isolation #70) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:41 pm

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In fact, there was not even a vote count where they bussed.

PEdit: Which theory was that?
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Post Post #1046 (isolation #71) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:41 pm

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In post 1044, MathBlade wrote:So still can’t read you. Even when I lurk to try.
90% of the site cannot. I don't aim to be unreadable. I merely play entirely emotion-based which doesn't fit in with the site-meta.
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Post Post #1057 (isolation #72) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:47 pm

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Yeah, I don't deal with VCA or voting patterns. They're wrong, in my experience, far more often than they're right.

Indeed, gg all

I've learned a couple things here:

1. I don't like vanilla/french vanilla setups unless I'm scum (Not in a "I only like playing scum" way. more "I like getting to play a chess match").
2. I don't like short games. Need multiple nights.
3. Night-talk games are weirdly more fun as scum than as town.

PEdit: Agree with MathDino. Arbitrary lynches are a bad idea.

I might consider trying to design an alternate version of this setup at some point, though.
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Post Post #1060 (isolation #73) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:48 pm

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Ah. That's probably why in hindsight, I was dissapointed. When I think of it as "micro hydra-only game", it makes so much more sense why it bored me.
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Post Post #1063 (isolation #74) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:50 pm

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That is a solid point. The recent Perpetual MyLo would have been solved instantly D3 if the town had done a bit of VCA. Of course, that was because of other reasons, but I digress.

PEdit: Lurking isn't a tell for most players. The only one that comes readily to mind is Titus. I've only been wrong about her once.
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Post Post #1065 (isolation #75) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:53 pm

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Anyways, looking at my two wrong reads here (sheep and Cy), 1 was sheerly because of my personal hatred of shitposters and the other was because I found myself glossing over their posts. Suppose there's a lesson to learn here, but I'll just chalk it up to coincidence. :lol:
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Post Post #1068 (isolation #76) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:57 pm

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Incorrect.

I said on multiple occasions that you, personally, were town. MathBlade was pretty scummy, but the complete gutread on you outweighed that. My vote on you was for the exact same reason that you said I needed to die for much of the game: we were like oil and water there.
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Post Post #1071 (isolation #77) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:01 pm

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As much distaste I had for your play this game and your complete reliance on a rando-lynch, I could never actually vote you for any decent amount of time. Every time I'd seek to follow it up, I'd feel my stomach knotting up. Very obviously not a good idea when that happens.

My heart and brain were competing. My heart knew what was going on, but my brain refused to accept it.

PEdit: There are many problems with this setup, or more generally, this type of setup. The lack of daytalk was hardly the worst part.
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Post Post #1079 (isolation #78) » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:22 pm

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In post 1073, Mathdino wrote:Haha, NSG, any thoughts you had over the course of it?

Diamond I'm interested to hear the other flaws you think it has.

In particular I want to address the particularly low town winrate, and how town only seems to win when scum are straight up not present or are bad. The last 2 town wins had AWOL scum IIRC (early mastina and someone else).
Let's see.
  • As I stated above, it's essentially a micro game. 4 VT and 2 goon lovers. The only thing is that it just
    doesn't work
    like a micro. The mandatory "hydras" muddle up everything. No fun there.
  • Mathematically solving the game with randomness. Yawn.
  • The lack of communication between lovers and goons keeps much planning at all from happening, especially since, at most, once the game starts, you get a single night phase to talk things over.
  • Back to it being a micro game, if you actually try to scumhunt the game, any pair that has at least 1 member lurking (or shitposting in sheep's case) becomes comparatively impossible to read.
  • Game can be won on D1. Most of the time
    must
    be won D1, except dragged over a 14-21 day period. Ick.
Those are the main ones.
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Post Post #1097 (isolation #79) » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:27 pm

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What an astute observation
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