Open 705: Polygamist - Game Over

[Lalendra]

Hi all! Happy New year. Finally got a chance to read and I'm confirming my lover is cy. This is the first time I have played this setup, but as of right now, I'm not getting the best vibes from math. He seems way too eager to peg the ones who followed his early lead on claiming lovers as town. That said, I don't really think that those who claimed after he proposed this approach are the other two scum, because it would be too obvious. I think they were townies who were following his lead. I know it's been said already, but it really feels like the random lynch approach is icky; seems like an easy way to mislynch and then say "oh well, better luck next time." We can't afford that. He even says that if he were confirmed town he would still choose randomly, but I don't believe that's true. The "I know this is scummy but we should do it anyway" just feels like backpedaling. Also not a huge fan of the overly-aggressive "follow the townbloc/sheep me cuz I'm obvtown" tone of his posts thus far. (And before he tries to say this is OMGUS, I feel that I have plenty of reasons for my vote, whereas his is completely arbitrary.)

VOTE: MathDino

[Lalendra]

To respond to a couple things in particular:
"He even says that if he were confirmed town he would still choose randomly, but I don't believe that's true": Then you're just wrong, and you don't know enough about how I think to know you're wrong. Feel free to leaf through my open games if you're actually interested in sorting me (I won't expect it of you, but if it eases your mind, whatever). Sun shines, grass grows, Mathdino breaks setups. The main things that stop me are in the set of {obstinate townies, scared scum, D1 going majorly off the rails in some way}.

This isn't the first time I've played with you. And no, I don't believe that as town you would be espousing this kind of strategy. Feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion.

"The "I know this is scummy but we should do it anyway" just feels like backpedaling": I think you skimmed/missed the point in some way. IN A NORMAL GAME, what I'm doing would be massively scummy, because scumhunting increases town's winrate in normal games. In this game, scumhunting literally decreases our winrate, so I'm uninterested in scumhunting. I do believe I can come up with at least one townread, and I'm basing my entire game around that. Because that's where the math leads me.

Speaking in terms of probability, yes, scumhunting decreases our winrate. HOWEVER, I am far more comfortable with the idea of scumhunting, and coming up with meta/associative/scummy tells, than I am with picking random targets.

On that note, let me ask - if you had a scumread on someone, would you still be using this approach? i.e., would you forgo your scumread and trust the dice? Because that seems like playing against your wincon imo.

I don't really have much more response to Diamond, but for those of you interested in actual scumhunting, notice how neither Sky_Paladin nor Diamond are sure on how to scumhunt in this situation, so they both default to discrediting my solution

which is specifically to solve the "no real way to scumhunt" problem

. So they're probably scum. Or maybe this is me confbiasing because they disagree with me. Dunno. At the very least I have no reason to townread them, so I'm sticking to sheep/Tora as my locktown team.

I like that you at least acknowledge the fact that you're scumreading people just for not agreeing with you, but I still think you should be a little more open-minded. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they're scum.

MathDino, that's a big strawman. Town can completely disagree with your idea because it's a pants idea. I'm not calling you bad or stupid for it, I'm saying it's scum to push the agenda that it's too hard to scumhunt so we should just roll a dice instead, and that's why I'm voting you.

Exactly.

To more specifically respond to this, I know that town CAN disagree with it. That's beside the point: I'm saying that scum MUST disagree with it. So I naturally must consider that anyone who disagrees with it could be scum.

Wait...but above you said that you were scumreading Sky/Diamond for disagreeing with you. Yet here, you acknowledge that people can disagree with you and still be town?

However, on day 1, it's 75% chance of town mislynching (random miss).
On day 2, it's 60% chance of town mislynching (random miss).
I would take those odds as scum every time.

I'm not big on doing the math in setups because I feel that math only works in a vacuum where you don't take into account unpredictable and unquantifiable things such as people's opinions, behavior, psychology, willfully doing things that they otherwise wouldn't just to throw people off their meta, etc. However, Sky's example above is pretty much exactly why I'm not comfortable with Math's approach.

[Lalendra]

There is no reason for scum to roll a dice, they could just say lynch A and lynch B who are actually town members

Or they could fake a dice roll and doctor the results to pick town members, which is what I suspect is happening here. Now I am not familiar with the dice mechanic as I haven't seen it used in a game before, but I think I understand what Math is saying; I just disagree with his statement that town can do something with the dice that scum can't or wouldn't. Math says they can't be tampered with, but then immediately after he says that the dice roller should make sure the dice doesn't hit them or their lover:

The dice roller cannot be tampered with.

Just because I roll the dice doesn't mean I can say "alright guys I'm rolling the dice to lynch anyone other than me, [scumpartner X], [scumpartner Y], [scumpartner Z]". If I did that, I would be super obvious scum.

Now you could (and I am) making an argument that the dice roller should be town and should randomise their target as anyone other than themselves and their own lover.

He says he'd be super obvious scum if he chose to eliminate 4 people instead of 2, which is true, but how do we know he's not just playing the odds by saying "even if I eliminate myself and my lover, the odds are still in my favor (i.e. 8/10 or 80%) that I will still hit town"? If the dice rolled and chose either him or his

scumbuddy

lover, would he still go along with this approach? The only motivation I can see to the dice approach is a scum-driven one, and Math is using statistics to prove that he has a town motivation for it, but I'm just not buying it.

[Lalendra]

I'm playing my way by sheeping someone I consider trustworthy, which I consider equivalent to a random lynch.

Except it's not at all random. That person is choosing a lynch target, and while it could be random TO YOU, because you aren't involved in the process of choosing, it is not at all random and quite subjective to that person. So this is going directly against what you've been suggesting all game.

[Lalendra]

Hey dude if 6 other players are willing to random lynch based on a dice roll, I'd go for that. But they're not, and coming up with a lynch that's random TO ME is the Poor Man's Version. I can just hope that they're not in some way unduly influenced by scum.

The fact that no one else seems to be wanting to join the awesome/arbitrary wagon on your team if anything indicates to me that it's probably actually on scum. If someone from literally every team had hopped on by now, I'd start to get suspicious because I'd start to think that the lynch was in fact not random and was supported by scum.

That tell is of course null now that I've actually said it, so everyone jumping on after this post wouldn't actually change my mind at all.

Okay, point taken about the quasi-random sheep vote.
I think, however, that the reason the wagon isn't building is more due to the fact that there haven't really been any concrete reasons laid out, and/or the fact that others are not on board with the random lynch option, as you said. I don't have a problem with sheeping a townread, I do it frequently; I just don't have anyone yet in this game that I feel comfortable enough sheeping, so I am trying to form my own reads.

Oh yeah and I coded the setup.
Modeled as 6 players, 2 random mafia, and 2 random lynches. Town wins if one lynch is on mafia. Loops 1000 times. The winrate hovers around 600.

I can do the same thing for the hypothetical narrative in which we randomly select someone as a townie to roll 2 lynches on anyone other than them, but I think you guys get the point by now.
The theoretical winrate in that scenario would be 70%, assuming we select a townie.

Not going to lie, whether you're town or scum, your math and coding skills are intimidating. Like I really hope you're town because I would not want to deal with you as scum, and maybe that's part of what makes me so leery.

[Lalendra]

177 is tryhard, clearly scum

Seriously though I can't believe you did all that, I've never seen someone turn a tl;dr into its own wall, I'm almost in awe

[Lalendra]

Fine. I was against the random lynch and the only player pair MD actually seems to have a scumread on is kop/bigfinn, and he's put WAY more effort into this game than I have as evidenced by all of the goddamn math, PLUS the MD wagon is clearly never going to go anywhere so VOTE: kop/bigfinn[/unvote]
p-edit: kinda where I'm at

[Lalendra]

ffs. VOTE: kop because apparently, like highlander, there can be only one
p-edit: nah I'm not down for giving up on town, if I'm finally coming around to his way of thinking then he damn well better be town or my head is going to explode

[Lalendra]

NO I'M SHEEPING YOU BECAUSE THAT'S AS GOOD AS RANDOM REMEMBER

[Lalendra]

[Lalendra]

I literally just had a conversation about how I will always be scumread because of my posting/playing style. I hate it

p-edit: That's going in my sig lol

[Lalendra]

Out of curiosity though, why do you SR me at the moment? Is it just because I argued against the diceroll plan? Because iirc there were others who did that as well who you are not currently scumreading, and kop/bigfinn did NOT do that and you ARE scumreading them. I have come around to the idea that you are town but I'm struggling to figure out where your reads are coming from (despite the fact that I know you don't think they're especially important...or maybe because of that?)

[Lalendra]

I'm also struggling to see where you/Tora came to your townread on sheep, I don't really feel they've posted anything AI at this point.

[Lalendra]

Yeah we were running at a good clip there for a while but now there are only 4 people posting and no progress has been made. I really hope it's not like this for the next 3 weeks.

[Lalendra]

I know, I was just joshin'.

[Lalendra]

Omg same. We were meant to be <3

<3

[Lalendra]

i'm just gonna point out that absolutely no one read my tl;dr all the way through and i know this because of an easter egg i put in it

LIES i actually read every word and I did enjoy that

[Lalendra]

@Everyone:

You know the post by post tl;dr I did of the longer posts in the game?

I want everyone to post a tl;dr of their lover PTs with every single post included. Even if your lover already did.

Llama: here's your thread
Me: Hey i haven't played this setup before so if you know what to do I'm all ears
Llama: This thread is closed

[Lalendra]

in my lovers pt, llama does his intro

then kop posts hi

then bf posts hi

then bf asks if kop has any setup based advice and stratagies

bf is confused on how to play due to the lover mechanics so he says that his overall voting strat will mirror kop's

kop never responds

LF closes pt

we didn't speak in our lovers topic

Omg i was going to vote with you lover but holy shit lynch this
Good catch MD
VOTE: momo

[Lalendra]

Honestly I've kind of given up, if I'm going to get lynched D1 because of arbitrary random voting and math, then what's the point in defending? Nothing I say matters if we're just playing the lottery.

[Lalendra]

Lalendra just giving up does concern me.

I get grumpy when I feel like what I say doesn't matter. I am happy to engage if anyone has any questions or anything, there's just no defense for "please don't arbitrarily lynch me", since there's no logic behind it to argue against. I can say "don't lynch me, I'm town," but that's NAI as it's what anyone would say in this situation, so.

[Lalendra]

Hey I mean you were doing pretty well when you argued that we should just arbitrarily lynch someone else

I'm just bummed because I was really excited for this game and now I feel like I'm going to get lynched D1 through no fault of my own.

[Lalendra]

I super hate appeals to emotion and, even though it's totes your birthday, my knee-jerk reaction to ATE is to lynch it off the face of the earth.

Yeah, I can't even say that you're wrong about this. I'm usually the same way. I think I'm just sour on mafia tonight and need to sleep lol

[Lalendra]

My strategy relies on the fact that scumhunting is impossible with this setup, but limited townhunting is possible.

People say this all the time and i will never understand it. Aren't they just two sides of the same coin?

[Lalendra]

K so you're one of those players. Damn.

Well, we honestly probably just caught scum early with cy/Lalendra, because the fact that the lynch hasn't been pushed through already is insanely suspicious.

I'm not going to pretend to understand your math fully, but if there are 4 people on the wagon, how do i know that all four of you aren't scum, and the ones not jumping on the wagon aren't town? You could be scum taking a power town approach and espousing the random approach to look neutral. That would make sheep your scum buddy and makes it make sense that you are passively throwing shade at anyone not voting us and low key pressuring people to sheep your vote for town cred. Honestly that all makes so much sense that i would feel like i had the whole game figured out if it wasn't for how much i still don't like momo's slip or his response to it.

[Lalendra]

re: 504 & 516, I will have to go back and re-read for the Sky/Diamond argument and give you my opinion tomorrow, it's bedtime.

[Lalendra]

The other reason is mainly Dino's attitude and playstyle seems hellbent on his way or the highway and that looks a lot like open wolfing to me.

I'm confused about all these references to wolfing, isn't wolf a 3rd party that only exists in multiball?

[Lalendra]

So to Lalendra/Cy/Momo/et al, what do you think about that?

I have been waffling on Dino's slot all game, but I am willing to vote there if it comes down to it largely because of that waffling. Like I said last night, I have a scumteam in my head which does involve Dino, so even though I'm not 100% certain, the pieces fall into place too perfectly for me to ignore.

[Lalendra]

I think that's the real motivation for why you want me out of the game - I'm the only player willing to question you.

There have definitely been others who have been willing to question Dino - otherwise he wouldn't be the ONLY player (including his partner) who is still in favor of an arbitrary lynch.

[Lalendra]

Wolf is another word for scum.
But I suspect you were coached to ask.

The four of you may talk prior to the beginning of Day 1 at .

Unless I'm wrong, scum don't have day chat, so how could I have been coached?

[Lalendra]

i mean honestly i thought "hating arbitrary lynch" was lowkey a scumtell but then my partner did it
so fuck me right

[Lalendra]

i also have 1 person in the replacement queue

I'm happy to replace in if needed, this is also my only current game and I'm dying inside

[Lalendra]

Tora, if you put Dia at L-1, we can just speedlynch anyone who quickhammers.

The pressure is importante.

But isn't the pressure of putting someone at L-1 sort of negated if you then also say that you'll lynch anyone who quickhammers? Like the point of putting someone at L-1 is to see if anyone quickhammers, and making the person THINK they might get quickhammered. Kind of a crappy reaction test if you explain the outcome before anyone can react.

[Lalendra]

I asked her for a Last Will set of reads and she completely ignored it

wait, you did? When?

[Lalendra]

I just went through probably the last third of your ISO and I don't see the question, sorry I missed it. I am phoneposting now but can make a readslist with quotes for you later today.

[Lalendra]

1) I really hope that you're not confbiased on sky/diamond/lal/cy just because you came up with a (admittedly awesome) pun for the scumteam name
2) Sorry about not being more active, I worked until 1030pm last night and am back at work now so I'm reading but won't be able to do anything but phonepost for a bit.

[Lalendra]

This might've created the impression that I was strongly townreading sheep when it was more of a townlean on sheep informed by my townread of Tora.

You called sheeping sheep "joining the locktown wagon" previously, and now you're saying it's just a townlean?

[Lalendra]

Guys Mathdino just admitted he knows cy is a mislynch. If he really thought cy was Mafia, there wouldn't be a tomorrow.

Holy shit. I've been having misgivings about Math all game and he almost talked me into drinking his Kool-Aid.

VOTE: MathDino

[Lalendra]

I think Sheep's play this game has a lot more in common with their scum-meta than their town meta.

This is really helpful. I was considering that Dino and Sheep could be scum together for the obvious way that Dino was sheeping sheep, and trying to get everyone else to do the same; however, I was having a hard time deciding between "Dino is scum who is assuming a powertown role and sheeping his scumbuddy," "Dino is scum who is assuming a powertown role and sheeping a townie to get towncred," and "Dino is town who is espousing a strategy which goes against the spirit of the game and may or may not be advantageous for town, but at least he's trying." Basically, torn between "too scummy to be scum" and "Ya but this is scummy tho." This helps to solidify the possibility of the Dino/Math/sheep/tora scumteam I had potentially lined up in my head already.

Presumably Cy/Lalendra would have a personal investment in wanting to persuade players who might be wanting to vote Dino (e.g you and I given we had been there for most of the day) to revote Dino because otherwise they'd be dead.
However this has not really eventuated.

So I guess I'll semi-address this to Cy/Lalendra: Are you guys voting Dino because you believe scum!Dino, or is it because you're trying to keep your head above water?

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here because ou say that we would have a personal investment in persuading people to vote Dino, then you imply that doing so is somehow AI? Or that I'm being disingenuous? Regardless, yes, I do have a personal stake in not being lynched, obviously; however, I would be objecting to Dino's strategy regardless of who his wagon target was, and I do find his behavior scummy for reasons I have stated previously.

[Lalendra]

town cant be scum

Do you have an actual defense or is your flippancy indicative of the fact that you don't have anything else to say that would be convincing?

[Lalendra]

If you're town can you try to a) convince us you're not scum so we can move on to finding actual scum or b) try to help us find actual scum or better yet c) both

[Lalendra]

...

Math, are you even reading?

1. No PT fuckups.
2. "setting up non-Mop lynch tomorrow" Mop is literally my most likely lynch if sheep is scum.

Well, this reads as a definite townslip to me. Diamond forgot that if we lynch scum D1 then there is no inch tomorrow, the game is over.

[Lalendra]

The last vote count looked like this -

cytheflyguy (6) - Toranaga, Sky_Paladin, Mathdino, sheepsaysmeep, Mathblade, momo
Mathdino (3) - hyung, RedFlavor, Lalendra
sheepsaysmeep (1) - DiamondSentinel
DiamondSentinel (1) - cytheflyguy

Not Voting (1) - Kop

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

With around 10 RL days left on the clock. So that is plenty of time for Cy/Lalendra to convince us why we should vote for somebody else if they wanted to.

Diamond, calling people bad won't convince them to shift their votes. We spent the first part of the game trying to get through the dino wall and it didn't work so why would it work now.

Like I'm not against a sheep lynch but look at the votes. Cy hasn't even voted to defend themselves, and the natural push for Sheep over Cy hasn't come up given your vote is already there.

It looks a lot like Cy/Lalendra have just checked out of the game.

I have posted quite a bit in my own defense, and tried to do some scumhunting as well. I am happy to answer any outstanding questions or provide information, but as I recall no one has asked me anything.

[Lalendra]

This is not the first time Cy/Lalendra have been within hammer range and they just afk'd it out. The only reason they didn't die then was because you and I stuck our neck out pushing for Dino, because we couldn't get sheep, and became the target ourselves.

However instead of just laying down to die and afk out, we showed signs of life/defended our votes hard/assessed reads etc etc, basically, all things town players do when they have votes on them that they know to be wrong and that some of those votes are scum.

Cy/Lalendra has all the hallmarks of scum just silently waiting for a new wagon to suddenly appear that will save them.

cut

I have posted quite a bit in my own defense, and tried to do some scumhunting as well. I am happy to answer any outstanding questions or provide information, but as I recall no one has asked me anything.

I don't remember you posting anything?

Hey dude if 6 other players are willing to random lynch based on a dice roll, I'd go for that. But they're not, and coming up with a lynch that's random TO ME is the Poor Man's Version. I can just hope that they're not in some way unduly influenced by scum.

The fact that no one else seems to be wanting to join the awesome/arbitrary wagon on your team if anything indicates to me that it's probably actually on scum. If someone from literally every team had hopped on by now, I'd start to get suspicious because I'd start to think that the lynch was in fact not random and was supported by scum.

That tell is of course null now that I've actually said it, so everyone jumping on after this post wouldn't actually change my mind at all.

Okay, point taken about the quasi-random sheep vote.
I think, however, that the reason the wagon isn't building is more due to the fact that there haven't really been any concrete reasons laid out, and/or the fact that others are not on board with the random lynch option, as you said. I don't have a problem with sheeping a townread, I do it frequently; I just don't have anyone yet in this game that I feel comfortable enough sheeping, so I am trying to form my own reads.

Oh yeah and I coded the setup.
Modeled as 6 players, 2 random mafia, and 2 random lynches. Town wins if one lynch is on mafia. Loops 1000 times. The winrate hovers around 600.

I can do the same thing for the hypothetical narrative in which we randomly select someone as a townie to roll 2 lynches on anyone other than them, but I think you guys get the point by now.
The theoretical winrate in that scenario would be 70%, assuming we select a townie.

Not going to lie, whether you're town or scum, your math and coding skills are intimidating. Like I really hope you're town because I would not want to deal with you as scum, and maybe that's part of what makes me so leery.

Out of curiosity though, why do you SR me at the moment? Is it just because I argued against the diceroll plan? Because iirc there were others who did that as well who you are not currently scumreading, and kop/bigfinn did NOT do that and you ARE scumreading them. I have come around to the idea that you are town but I'm struggling to figure out where your reads are coming from (despite the fact that I know you don't think they're especially important...or maybe because of that?)

@Everyone:

You know the post by post tl;dr I did of the longer posts in the game?

I want everyone to post a tl;dr of their lover PTs with every single post included. Even if your lover already did.

Llama: here's your thread
Me: Hey i haven't played this setup before so if you know what to do I'm all ears
Llama: This thread is closed

Honestly I've kind of given up, if I'm going to get lynched D1 because of arbitrary random voting and math, then what's the point in defending? Nothing I say matters if we're just playing the lottery.

Lalendra just giving up does concern me.

I get grumpy when I feel like what I say doesn't matter. I am happy to engage if anyone has any questions or anything, there's just no defense for "please don't arbitrarily lynch me", since there's no logic behind it to argue against. I can say "don't lynch me, I'm town," but that's NAI as it's what anyone would say in this situation, so.

K so you're one of those players. Damn.

Well, we honestly probably just caught scum early with cy/Lalendra, because the fact that the lynch hasn't been pushed through already is insanely suspicious.

I'm not going to pretend to understand your math fully, but if there are 4 people on the wagon, how do i know that all four of you aren't scum, and the ones not jumping on the wagon aren't town? You could be scum taking a power town approach and espousing the random approach to look neutral. That would make sheep your scum buddy and makes it make sense that you are passively throwing shade at anyone not voting us and low key pressuring people to sheep your vote for town cred. Honestly that all makes so much sense that i would feel like i had the whole game figured out if it wasn't for how much i still don't like momo's slip or his response to it.

Wolf is another word for scum.
But I suspect you were coached to ask.

The four of you may talk prior to the beginning of Day 1 at .

Unless I'm wrong, scum don't have day chat, so how could I have been coached?

This might've created the impression that I was strongly townreading sheep when it was more of a townlean on sheep informed by my townread of Tora.

You called sheeping sheep "joining the locktown wagon" previously, and now you're saying it's just a townlean?

Also I have posted regarding the RL responsibilities which have kept me from being as active as I would otherwise like to be, and I don't believe that I've gotten answers to some of the questions that I have posed to Dino and others, so I'm not sure why I'm suddenly being accused of not defending or lurking.

[Lalendra]

Okay, explain to me what you think I should be doing differently, because it sounds like you're saying I'm not scumhunting largely because you happen to be one of the pairs I'm scumreading.

[Lalendra]

I think that if cy and I don't survive D1, you need to take a long, hard look at your sheep/tora townread, because I am really not feeling the warm fuzzies there that you are, and if you're town, I think you are sorely mistaken on that pair. I really am not seeing the scumminess that everyone is reading into Red's pair, so I wouldn't advocate going after them, sheep would still be my first choice.

[Lalendra]

Okay, so from your perspective, and assuming I'm town, who the hell are sheep/Tora buddies with?

I'm not assuming you're town.

[Lalendra]

@Lalendra

Your last 'scumhunting' post you have in that wall is when the vote tally looked like this -

DiamondSentinel (4) - sheepsaysmeep, cytheflyguy, Mathblade, RedFlavor
cytheflyguy (3) - Toranaga, Sky_Paladin, Mathdino
sheepsaysmeep (2) - DiamondSentinel, momo
momo (1) - Lalendra

Not Voting (2) - Kop, hyung

Right now, the tally looks like this

cytheflyguy (6) - Toranaga, Sky_Paladin, Mathdino, sheepsaysmeep, Mathblade, momo
Mathdino (3) - hyung, RedFlavor, Lalendra
sheepsaysmeep (1) - DiamondSentinel
DiamondSentinel (1) - cytheflyguy

Not Voting (1) - Kop

Your stated reason for getting on the Mathdino wagon was because of a scumslip that Hyung brought up.

So when I say "I don't remember you posting anything?" it's because I don't remember you bringing anything new to the table.

My reads haven't changed. I still feel the Math/Math/Sheep/Tora scumteam. And fwiw, I was thinking this before the wagon on Cy took off, so inb4 OMGUS accusations.

[Lalendra]

In post 963, Mathdino wrote:
We have a political problem going on. Have you been reading?

I haven't seen any comment from you since before I gave sheep, Tora, and Red that questionnaire a while back.



I have been.

Some point incorrectly scumread you.

Wait...is this your way of explaining a scumslip? Saying you "accidentally" scumread your partner seems a bit fishy to me.

[Lalendra]

OK Lalendra. Assume Dino is scum. Who is his scumslot partner?

If you flipped either Dino or the other slot and they come up green, who is your lynch in LYLO?

I still think tora/sheep if Dino flips scum. If we lynch one pair, I would probably start D2 from the pov that I am still scumreading the other pair, but would need to reassess in light of the flip and rethink any associatives I have established between the pairs. However I reeeeally don't think that either pair will flip green.

p-edit: So I'm a lynch option because of these two things: a) my reads changed from the literal first post I made (seems reasonable given the fact that, idk, things have happened? and b) I didn't suggest a Math/sheep scumteam until...over 400 posts ago? That doesn't even make sense.

[Lalendra]

You're right, I misread, you said "you WERE a lynch option". My bad.

But can you understand why I feel like it's an exercise in futility for me to speculate on what your scumreads would be if you were town, considering I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that you're scum? I'm also not great at speculating on another person's reads (particularly when I disagree with pretty much everything you've done this game).

[Lalendra]

I guess the only pair I could see other than those two is momo, because I'm still not a huge fan of that slip earlier and feel it was never explained away. I would be open to not lynching him if he presented more evidence to the contrary, but as of right now, that's my first thought if either of the pairs I scumread are incorrect.

[Lalendra]

There's a reason I said "only". I would have to do a lot of rereading to find the most likely scumpartners with Mop if it wasn't either sheep or dino, because those are the scumpairs that I have felt the most strongly about. Plus, if Momo/Kop are caught scum, it doesn't very much matter who their partners are.

p-edit: I thought you were saying "incorrectly scumread you" to Dino, if that wasn't what you meant then disregard my point entirely.

[Lalendra]

(p-edit directed at Mathblade)

[Lalendra]

Cy is scum because of the lack of hammer.

I still think that you're discounting the possibility of "town won't hammer because if they do Dino will deathtunnel them" when it comes to the lack of hammer. We can't afford deathtunnels on D2 because two mislynches means scum win.

[Lalendra]

When it means that being wrong equals two town lynches and losing the game, it warrants careful consideration, is my point.

[Lalendra]

I don't need to make a case for Cy being town, I know our alignment and any argument from me (other than what I have already given) would be utterly unconvincing, so at this point I'm stepping out of what is, at this point, a pointless exchange.

[Lalendra]

Ugh, I was so excited to finally roll something other than VT and I ended up with a completely unwinnable game lol