Open 707 - JK9++ [Endgame]

[momo]

/confirm

[momo]

This happened again! Why do I wake up to people wanting to murder me?

Elsa and/or Jay here, coming live from 'Merica! We hope to make a wonderful game and make it to the finale over most of your corpses!

Not voting yet cause I don't feel like it.

--- Post Edit ---

I currently got 8 votes to my name. I'm a popular person.

OpenWolfy

VOTE: Jaydragon

This makes it 9 votes and since there is 60 people and 23 is the majority it is L - 55

VOTE: RedFlavor are y'all losing your touch...vote this

[momo]

wait, what's going on, why don't those votes count? I'm confused guys

[momo]

@hawk, was momo lynchbait in the last game you played with him? I recall playing with him before, Im not sure if we were in the same game the three of us, because a part of me seems to be remembering he was a hard player to play with and it was as if he was just trolling the game, rather than actively playing the game in serious mode.

The last game the 3 of us played together was Open 677. That was my first game of mafia (on this site) and I was confused.

I understand things a lot better now and give it a little bit and you will watch me bust this game open.

[momo]

@hawk, was momo lynchbait in the last game you played with him? I recall playing with him before, Im not sure if we were in the same game the three of us, because a part of me seems to be remembering he was a hard player to play with and it was as if he was just trolling the game, rather than actively playing the game in serious mode.

The last game the 3 of us played together was Open 677. That was my first game of mafia (on this site) and I was confused.

I understand things a lot better now and give it a little bit and you will watch me bust this game open.

Ahh yes I remember that game. I think that was the one I chose wrong and lynched hawk.

In lylo.

I doubt it...Hawk was scum with me.

[momo]

I can agree with your momo point but I did the same thing with my very first post but that was a result of me skim reading, and not looking at the posters who were placing the votes. My mistake was genuine but I don't know about momo.

Same thing happened to me. The people who double or triple vote are trolling. Anyone can get caught up by that. In my experience, you should never double vote because it is antitown and confusing. The only plausible reason for town to double vote is to add emphasis after a stretch where there have been no vote changes. This definitely should not be happening in the first two pages of the game. All those of you who double and triple voted need to get your shit together and start playing towards the town wincon.

[momo]

Pedit: Not sure if Momo is being sarcastic or serious here.... Someone literally said something like that's 9 votes and with 60 people alive it'll take 20 more to reach majority blah blah clearly joking around and drawing attention to the absurdity put forth voting Jay repeatedly.

I read the joke and was being semi-serious. Like I get they are trying to be funny but it is frankly annoying for town.

[momo]

Pedit: Not sure if Momo is being sarcastic or serious here.... Someone literally said something like that's 9 votes and with 60 people alive it'll take 20 more to reach majority blah blah clearly joking around and drawing attention to the absurdity put forth voting Jay repeatedly.

I read the joke and was being semi-serious. Like I get they are trying to be funny but it is frankly annoying for town.

*eyebrow* I can see that but I don't think beimg unobservant enough to realize that the same 3 people voted Jay all p1 and p2 is alignment indicative. But maybe I'm misreading what you're saying. Since I would find that more annoying as scum than as town... town should probably keep a close eye on who gets put up for lynch and who's on a wagon.

@almost50 makes sense. Pretty high on the speculation chart d1 but the effort to explain yourself is appreciated.

Also if it's only relevant to Mathdino are you saying it's correlated to his alignment?

It's not AI, it's just annoying

[momo]

Is momo usually scummy in this particular way? He's unironically arguing that people who double vote in RVS are anti-town for generating fake chaos. Also "All those of you who double and triple voted need to get your shit together and start playing towards the town wincon" seems like he already knows that he's chewing out townies. What's his scumgame like?

I never said that they were scum. Voting multiple times is NAI. I was just saying that it is annoying.

I say town wincon because either way, they should be trying to appear town

[momo]

RedFlavor come at me.

U r calling me scum because my first vote on you (in RVS) happened because you did something to annoy me. Why are you encouraging this nonsense in RVS anyway? The reason I now think you are scum is because you were one of the last to vote Jay. You didn't take part in the double/triple voting earlier. You just voted once at the end to be a part of the "in" crowd. If you actually kept on voting for the joke maybe, now you are just trying to appear town.

And you are calling A50 scum. Boi, you need to learn how to read.

You are trying to lynch me D1 because I am easy lynch bait.

Not happening.

Moving on,
I don't know about Finn but Assemblerotws is generally low activity. Not someone we want around for lylo but also def not someone who we want to D1 lynch.

[momo]

Red, seems to me that momo’s frustration was genuine. He seemed annoyed that town would multi-vote since it only makes the game confusing.

The flip side is, it’s probably a decent reaction test to make it look like someone got hammered. So I disagree somewhat, but he at least seemed to be genuine.

Pedit: Momo makes a good point about the Jay wagon. This makes Red look bad. However, I don’t like momo’s confidence in townreading A50. Seems contrived.

However, I don’t like momo’s confidence in townreading A50. Seems contrived.

momo TRs me for 2 reasons, the first of which is I acknowledged his play is usually scummy as Town and even provided reference, so -to him- I must be Town bc I did not capitalize on the fact he is lynch-bait.

The second reason I'd rather not go into, but I'd say it was a false assumption on his part.

So, both momo and Mathdino are correctly TRing me but for the wrong reasons.

I never said A50 was lock town. However meta hunting, being active, and posting solid reasoning is good enough for a D1 TR.

I am also def not standing for my #1 scum read calling me scum buddies with me and one of my town reads.

My votes not changing unless a big change happens in the game.

[momo]

I mean that lowkey implies some shit like HEY GUYS I'M A COP WITH AN INNOCENT ON REDFLAVOR. Or masons or something.

That or someone else being obv!scum

[momo]

Uh, guys? I'm kinda scared when I look at the setup page.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B

It's history at the bottom literally says town has only won with this once,while the Serial Killer and the Mafia have three each under their belt, and a draw between them. That does not bode well for the majority.

Mainly NIA but could be scum trying to appear as town.

With that in mind,

If I were the hider, I would hide behind JayDragonKing.

[momo]

i would hide behind impede
atm i look like town: mathd
im somewhat liking assemble and a50
nullscum: jay/impede
scum: red

@sheep, how do you read me?

[momo]

as for reading momo, i want to know if 82 (i think it's 82 from the top of my head) was an rvs vote
i think 130 is a good place to read you from, but youre null for me

82 was semi-serious...we were obviously in rvs phase but the way redflavor hopped on that wagon a little late but still trying to be a part of the in crowd struck me as scum

[momo]

PEdit: lol that feel when momo's reads are dependent on how people read him

Not necessarily, however, the way people react to my post can give me a hint to their alignment, over the past few months, town has learnt not to lynch me D1

[momo]

Impede is building a case

Who here thinks red vs jay is bussing

[momo]

Like both of them know they are caught scum so they bus so that whoever is lynched first has been effectively distanced from the other one

[momo]

The way I see this right now, is Creature flips scum, Jay and Red will be seen in a better life. If not, they will pretty much become conf!scum buddies....

Actually, the both of them voting Creature seems like something buddies under pressure would do to me

Imma
VOTE: Jaydragonking right now with the intention of lynching red tommorrow, especially if this slot flips scum

Oh and btw, after this post, if Jay does flip scum, I am a likely NK so if jay flips scum, doctor/jailkeeper/whatever protective or bus driving role there is on me

[momo]

momo: I honestly don't think he's contributed much to the game, but he's not not-contributing in a way that's scummy. Most lynchable player in all of ms.net right?

Yo, somebody nominate me for the title most lynchable, then I will have really secured my position

[momo]

@momo: Bro you only give scumreads. Who're your townreads?

I really don't believe in town reads.

I town LEAN havingfitz, you, and A50 (in that order)...but I am trying to avoid the word townread unless they are ICs because then you become stubborn, players get unlynchable, and that's just a place I don't want to be.

[momo]

ah fuckshit i forgot a vote

VOTE: RedFlavor

I'm willing to lynch/hammer anyone below Almost50 if it comes down to the wire.

@Mathdino....considering that you also SR/SL Jay, wouldn't that be a better vote. Think about it...if you have Una associated with them in a sensible way, and redflavor can also be reasonably associated with jay due to the creature vote, lynching Jay provides the most information.

In fact, jay flipping scum could mean a solved game.

Bam! Game solved people....go ahead...someone nominate me for paragon

(I would like to thank the scummies....)

Nah but in all seriousness, considering that jay flipping scum could solve the game while agreeing with your reads, I think your best bet is to place your vote on Jay

[momo]

Truly Town members: MathDino, Kop, Momo, Almost50.
Scum members: Impede and Creature.

So..uh..my top two scumreads, and the one gut-read associative I have with them are in your townblock..

Me and you are literally the opposite type of players, Una. That much I know. Is it really surprising that we got the opposite reads?

@Mathdino...considering that they are trying to distance themselves without declaring actual scum reads after you posted an association between them, I think that this is further proof that they might be scum together.

Consider it...

[momo]

I'll offer a deal to all the townies around after I've had a good night sleep..there is a lynch we can pull off today, and not likely later!

I'm beginning to think you're being cryptic because you know people will townread you for it (like me). That's really the only benefit of doing this, and I honestly think the drawbacks of slowing the game down outweigh the gains.

Is it momo?

Una, if it is me, just know this, I ain't flipping scum. And once I go down, you, jay, and read will too.

[momo]

I'll offer a deal to all the townies around after I've had a good night sleep..there is a lynch we can pull off today, and not likely later!

I'm beginning to think you're being cryptic because you know people will townread you for it (like me). That's really the only benefit of doing this, and I honestly think the drawbacks of slowing the game down outweigh the gains.

Is it momo?

Una, if it is me, just know this, I ain't flipping scum. And once I go down, you, jay, and red will too.

EBWOP (mispelled red)

[momo]

Why the heck are you associating me with Red so much, Momo? We've literally not had a conversation with each other at all, just him commenting earlier on about my "survive wincon". Was it Fitz who decided to ship us together as a scum team? I really want to know.

Do you read us both as scum and therefore we're a scum team by just both being scum or do you see something I don't?

Variety of reasons.

1. As you mentioned, I scumread both of you. This is always a good place to start.

2. Second, both of you have been the major lynch pushes. The normal town reaction here would be to try and see what's going on with the other one. Next thing you know both of you are voting Creature.

3.

As you mentioned, you have not had any communication. Yet both of you tried to start a wagon together that clearly didn't have any traction going for it yet. For this to happen in between 2 town, or 1 town/1 scum, there would need to be some sort of communication. Yet here you are, working together without communication. This means that you know something the rest of us do not. More specifically, you know something that ties the two of you together that town does not. This means that you are either masons or mafia. Are you claiming masons? Because if you are not masons, you are noob scum who finds your buddy in a spot defending each other and getting caught by me. So which is it, masons or scum?

I WANT NOBODY ELSE INTERVENING FOR JAY RIGHT NOW. JAY IS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION AT THE END OF 3. I am checking right now in another tab and jay is online. No ducking this.

[momo]

I thought mafia had no daytalk.

They don't have day talk but the way they voted each other was in a way of buddies supporting each other to get out of scum reads.

The voting pattern does not make any logical sense otherwise

[momo]

I read Creature as scum. He jumped on. If I'm getting damned because a different scum read jumped on my vote, I'm just unlucky. And Mason's can't even be here, Momo. This is an open. We know the possible roles in the wiki page. Anyone who claims Mason's are instantly scum.

That's the reason I asked if you were masons...it would have confirmed my reads.

Still, in the time that it took you to reply, I was tracking your online status and ALL your posts...you had a shortish gap in which you weren't doing anything though which could have been synonymous with you checking the wiki page (another test by me)

And it's not unlucky, the jump by him would have been a very classic n00b scum move, and it has damned you both.

[momo]

I'll have you know I was thinking of a response in a different game on site as well as putting on a music video on YouTube that I like listening too while I type.

And yeah, I keep the wiki open in an alt tab at all times to catch liars if they claim a bullshit role. No hiding that. I won't say I didn't check the wiki to be sure of no Mason because that would be a lie.

Anything Elsa?

The fact that you checked the wiki...you should have immediately denied the claim because you know your role. And I highly doubt you always keep the wiki open for a circumstance like this, especially in D1 when hardly anyone claims. When I asked if you were mason, are you telling me that town's first reaction would be to check if there was a mason in this setup? B.S.!

So you have been caught lying twice in one post. Tell me class, which faction lies when questioned, scum or town?

(P.S. I totally one-upped the class analogy with this post..Score!)

[momo]

Tell me class, which faction lies when questioned, scum or town?

I do have an objective problem with scumhunting in this way. My experience is that town usually fumbles more when questioned.

Maybe they fumble but I think getting caught in two OUTRIGHT lies is pretty scummy. My sentence at the end was probably too general but that was mainly added for the class analogy. However, in this situation, while considering the context, I would say that the lie is scummy. Would you disagree?

[momo]

I'll offer a deal to all the townies around after I've had a good night sleep..there is a lynch we can pull off today, and not likely later!

I'm beginning to think you're being cryptic because you know people will townread you for it (like me). That's really the only benefit of doing this, and I honestly think the drawbacks of slowing the game down outweigh the gains.

Is it momo?

wtf its not momo. It's A50. He's not being cryptic anymore.

Either way, there are way better lynch prospects than A50, that's not going down

[momo]

I'll have you know I was thinking of a response in a different game on site as well as putting on a music video on YouTube that I like listening too while I type.

And yeah, I keep the wiki open in an alt tab at all times to catch liars if they claim a bullshit role. No hiding that. I won't say I didn't check the wiki to be sure of no Mason because that would be a lie.

Anything Elsa?

The fact that you checked the wiki...you should have immediately denied the claim because you know your role. And I highly doubt you always keep the wiki open for a circumstance like this, especially in D1 when hardly anyone claims. When I asked if you were mason, are you telling me that town's first reaction would be to check if there was a mason in this setup? B.S.!

So you have been caught lying twice in one post. Tell me class, which faction lies when questioned, scum or town?

PEDIT: I am def not lynching Jay on the wiki thing alone...However, I feel like it's just one more reason on a long list

(P.S. I totally one-upped the class analogy with this post..Score!)

Hooooo...... wow. I am going to reread this like 30 times and then decide if momo just tricked scum into scumslipping successfully.

This right here makes me wonder if I should retire from mafia and quit while I'm ahead. After this game ends, be prepared for a revamped sig.

[momo]

This right here makes me wonder if I should retire from mafia and quit while I'm ahead. After this game ends, be prepared for a revamped sig.

It was cool, but it didn't really do that much except cause me to make a mental note to never townread you for this type of thing ever again.

Impede let me have my moment. For good players its normal. For the most mislynchable player on ms.net it's a once in a lifetime opportunity.

(BTW my overreaction is a joke...still I write it with a smile on my face)

[momo]

I feel like a damn hypocrite for thinking this, because Impede is reacting almost exactly the same way I am, but if Jay flips scum, I'd be more than willing to check out Impede for scum.

Why?...the only possible reason I could see is that he is posting things similar to you while declaring me town (both widely townread players) [AKA buddying] but that logic makes NO sense. A.) townreading both of us is the logical perspective while still keeping my ego in check because it is annoying and B.) He is posting before you

So what's your reasoning?

(I am actually really enjoying this game.)

[momo]

Like this is the most I have ever enjoyed mafia

[momo]

A really good reaction, when you're scum, to townies being onto something, is to dole out a townread so they don't get on your ass, but quietly not actually do anything about it, or discredit the logic.

Maybe......

A few flaws with your logic.

1. When a townie is on to something, I think everybody's reaction is to townread.
2. Impede's join date is October 27th. He has never played as scum...what are the chances of him pulling of something like this. (No offense Impede).
3. And he isn't doing nothing; Imepede's vote IS on jay...so he is supporting his lynch.
4. Also, reading his iso, he has genuinely scumhunted with quotes and long posts synthesizing and analyzing evidence.

In fact, after reading that iso and writing this post, Town Lean Impede!

[momo]

Okay so we need 3 more people for the Jay lynch...

Counting on mathdino so that's two...

pretty sure we can get A50 on this lynch (right A50)

Creature, hawk, would you be willing to be the last vote...

[momo]

I've legit already made it to LyLo in one complete game already, if you must know, Kop. And that one time I did, I won as scum. I will be a wonderful addition to LyLo.

You should only worry about me when there is NO active suspicion on me. That's when shit seems to be going scums way, regardless of me being scum or not.

Jay, you were a detriment to town in what would have been MYLO if there hadn't been a Bulletproof in my game, and you're being a detriment now. And that's not counting your reactions to Momo's pressure, which are bad.
VOTE: JaydragonKing
L-2.

Assemble? Is that you? Did you actually posts?

Nah, jk.

Good to see you and good vote.

However, you will remain null due to lack of content.

However, your reasoning...you said you are voting due to Jay being detrimental...not scummy...Are you voting because this slot is anti-town, or because this slot is scum?

Pedit: Alright mathdino...A50, I am assuming you are ready to vote here

[momo]

Quick thing, I picked fitz first and I encouraged everyone to pick different hider targets so it wouldn't draw the NK to any one person in particular.

Impede case isn't bad. It's convinced me out of a townread. Hasn't convinced me into a scumread. I see a lot of flak for his interaction with Jay, which I actually like. Seems natural to me.

How do you read Impede right now?

I understand you have your sights set on Jay, and I do agree with you with what you are saying, but personally I'd rather go for someone who can give us more information going into day two so we can get a stronger read on others, I feel lynching Jay on day one, isn't going to give us anything and reads won't be as strong as they would by lynching someone who gives us more. Jay will never be shot, so that is going to obviously be in the back of everyones mind and someone we don't want in LYLO, but he can easily be done on day 2 or 3 if we aren't further forward in lynching scum.

A few pages later , do you still scum read Impede (as heavily as before to the point you want to lynch him) after everything..especially my 423

[momo]

That leaves us with momo as a VT. Now why would a VT ask for protection??

'Cause at that moment I thought I had the game cracked open and scum would like to lynch a player like that....why would I ask for protection instead of a powerrole..call me selfish but I like to play and stay alive, enjoying this game and don't wanna die

[momo]

OK.. now let's talk about the Bus Driver! The ONLY Bus Driver I see is a MAFIA 1-shot Driver, and -AGAIN- I don't see momo missing that "little" detail. Now why would any Townie expect the MAFIA BUS DRIVER to help them out if they lynch MAFIA?? Does it makes any sense to you all??

Oh come on m8, I asked for doctor/jk/bus driver because those are all the protectives that I could see showing up...Contrary to your opinion, I don't have setups memorized...the bait was something carefully planned out after consulting the wiki...it wasn't something I just came up with of the top of my head....I didn't know what protectives where available

[momo]

The more I think about it the more I feel like momo has been baiting the protective roles (if any) to be on him so his team's shot on their target would go through w/o the need of using their Strongman Shot (if existent) or maybe because they don't have one to begin with. (I'm leaning the former though, because I would have saved my strongman shot to use closer to LyLo/MyLo if I was Scum).

I've been baiting protective roles...mmm....I don't think you understand how my mind works. That's fine...for me, getting past D1 matters more than winning. Call me selfish but after being mislynched so many times, you get that attitude...I wasn't baiting anything, I was making sure that I made it past the day...

Also, I agree when you say that scum is likely to save strongman for later considering it has the highest chance of being needed...but srsly speeking, do you think scum would be worried about doctor/jailkeeper N1. First of all, there is little chance the doctor blocks their kill. Second, there is only a 10% chance of there being a protective role. You wanna get into setup spec...the situation you are calling for is B.S. and no good scum would risk that kind of attention D1. I definitely wouldn't

[momo]

What I'm proposing is Mafia have a BUS DRIVER and very likely a JOAT (That is TT, T, or 0Ts), but that doesn't help much TODAY, so let's keep it for later.

As I mentioned earlier, I didn't know that only mafia could bus drive.

Either way, if I were scum and had a scum bus driver, don't you think I would ask in the scum pt at night instead of posting it in the thread. I am not stupid and scum would have to be seriously an idiot to make a post like that in thread.

Also, mathdino 475 Good reason for asking for protection as town there. My actions are selfish and maybe even ignorant, but def not scummy

[momo]

First of all, UNVOTE:

Ughh, this claim has thrown a real wrench into my reads.

I hate to say it but A50s post against me was probably the towniest thing he could have done...someone who is looking like the town leader, leading a lynch, has all the town reads, and then he kills my momentum with a giant wall of scum reading.....the information was misinterpreted, but the intent....

Okay read pretty much everyone's iso and this is what I got, using the info that Jay is vig/sk (def not group scum)

Okay, red flavor remains a scum read

Creature's iso however has made him my number one scum read...24 posts, meaning that he is fairly active; however, he hasn't contributed anything to town. No solide votes, pushes, scum reads, evidence, analysis. Nothing! On top of that, he went and defended red. That's probably the most affirmative thing he has done so far. Defend redflavor. Clear link in between the two...

The last slot for my top 3 scum reads goes to Una...read her iso, 34 posts...it is remarkable lackluster, a few game related lines here and there, but there are so many long posts that are not related to the game....a lot of Una's attention is focused away from hunting scum...the best way to describe it is the passive actor...doesn't say much except for a line here and a line there when something really sticks out. Only real hunting done is the one "case" against A50 and it seems pretty contrived to me..

I am pretty confident in these read but after my slip up with jay, I can't be a hundred percent sure...There is also the factor of all the lurkers...hawk, sort of kop, assemblerotws, and fitz who has shown some promise as town but not played to back it up

For a townbloc I have me, mathdino, a50, and even Impede. He was the first to post his thoughts in support of my attempt to catch Jay but also the first to point out the flaws..But even when a50 made a strong towny post against me (which I maintain as false) he didn't do what scum would do an move with the changing tides. He quoted the post and picked it apart. That's what town would do. They would stay to what they believe.

Sorry all for the delay and the somewhat long post but I had to completely restructure my thoughts in the game. I'm not going to put out anything half-hearted, that I promise you.

[momo]

Oh quick follow up since I forgot to do so in 492 VOTE: Creature[/post]

sheep, I don't care if it's how you a normally play, I want posts from you that are more than a couple short lines

[momo]

ugh VOTE: Creature

What is happening to me

[momo]

i am strongly against walls

You can be against walls but if you wanna support town, you have to post or mention multiple quotes, synthesize that evidence, and then go on to analyze it...

You can't just make offhand comments and expect that to sit well with people, forget benefit the town

You have to make your own reads, dive through the text...

[momo]

I feel like there were surprisingly few (none I believe) reactions to my 492

I implore that all of you go an read it as it contains my full restructured views of this game.....

It is my belief that it will be highly informative

(Btw, I think that the post tag is my new favorite feature. Y'all can use it instead of quoting. For those of you who do not know, it can be done like this)

Code: Select all

 [post][/post] 

Pedit: A50, good to see you on the Creature wagon...i think that creature flipping red would further confirm red as scum....

[momo]

So my best guess is... 2 scum off the wagon and 1 scum (Assemble) on the wagon. Something like that.

This reflects badly on Una, I'll concede that. His behaviour around Jay is really weird.
Giving A50 the benefit of the doubt. That's not a lynch that's happening today.
Hawk is null in relation to the wagon.
Creature hasn't contributed shit, so of course he wasn't on the wagon.
RedFlavor had kind of a random reason to strong townread Jay. Might be confbias but this counts as the "scum who suspiciously knows Jay is town".
Kop had really good reasons for being off the wagon I think. However, the Kop-scum situation I can think of is "Jay might be SK, so let's wait til tomorrow to see if we should lynch him". Paranoia.

Of those on the wagon:
I'm town. ISO me if you wanna do my blurb.
havingfitz had a whole bunch of reasons. His vote seemed to have purpose.
sheep's vote was explicitly for pressure. Says he got a bad OMGUS afterward. I believe this.
Impede voted in response to Jay's case on Creature, says it was full of OMGUS. Didn't like the survival play. Impede is a controversial topic. Not gonna go too far into this until I have something more readable.
momo fucking clearly believed he was onto something.
Assemble's vote was obviously the most opportunistic point to jump on.

I too SR both Assemble and Creature but I am surprised that you are putting Assmeble in your top 3. While it is suspicious, Assemble is a known lurker. Like 100% of the time.

[momo]

Creature hasn't contributed shit

I did contribute, just not the way you want.

Sometimes I don't gather scumreads, but rather I eliminate townreads and see who's left.

Creature, your iso is the scumiest in the game...you are pushing ish but you are not truly contributing, not truly committing....that's classic scum and you know it

[momo]

Some things I forgot to mention when I got lost in writing:

The crux of my problem with Dino, is that I can't find the reasoning why scum would ever suggest the Hider-hypoclaim. And therefore Mathdino is not lynch-material unless he refuses to lynch A50 D2.

You have him as a townread, however if he doesn't lynch someone he's scum...see this might make sense except your a50 read is pretty bad...I think a50 coming at me when I was leading a wagon was probably the towniest thing someone other than me has done this game...

Dino is town based on all of his actions - and my paranoia-scumread because of HOW TOWN HE IS (I'm always a bit too paranoid about my strongest townreads, Dino here is no exception, and thus I'm afraid Dino will "protect" A50 from a lynch even if they keep giving tells.)

Listen man, Dino is town. A50 is town. Working to make sure town doesn't get lynched is the town thing to do. You know how towny dino is. If you read my posts you would know how town a50 is. Yet you're still trying to lynch your number one town read for not voting someone you think is scum.

Why I'm pushing so heavily for A50, and specifically D1?
Because I think he is the kind of player who, if not lynched now, will be gradually even harder to push a lynch on, and will therefore make it to lategame.

Or maybe, you're scum afraid of how strong a50's reads have been and you want him gone before he has the chance to capitalize on his push against you.

I lifted up my opposing reads with Elsa earlier, because I thought they were town. But think we have such opposing reads that we will split the town, and can't work together to form majority on a lynch that needs to be done. I've seen enough games lost because of that - and that isn't to say someone is incompetent or bad, it's to say that sometimes town just can't communicate and coordinate well enough.

So what you're trying to say is listend to scum(you), so that we can lynch who scum wants, so that we have a lynch at all...thanks but no thanks. I will stick to scumhunting instead of painting town as scum.

[momo]

Off to work, might not be around for ~12 - 24 hours, depending on how busy it gets.

Mathdino (PARANOIA DOE BOIS), Impede, havingfitz, Elsa

A50, momo

I'm willing to discuss these names when I get back.

Okay your townreads aren't that bad.

However, a50 and myself as scum...good luck with that. Other than the fact that we are both obv!town, scum!momo would not defend his buddy this much. I learnt that lesson after my first game, Open: 677.

The fact that you think we are more scummy than the likes of Creature and redflavor is the most scummy thing you could do...A tip for the next time you roll scum, you can't take out the town!bloc by lynch. Those are the ones you night kill. You want to target lurkers or the null reads for the lynch.

[momo]

somene calling himself obvtown pings me

I think everyone with a town role pm thinks that they are obv!town, especially if they are trying and frustrated that some people can't see it

[momo]

also somewhat of an overreaction

I'm not over reacting, I'm picking apart a scummy post by one of my scum reads

[momo]

Alright I guess....

Okay, Hawk is coming of pretty town to me, now that he has more content, Imma do a serious iso

[momo]

Okay, Hawk's iso seems pretty town.

He built a lot of the original case against read and that is good.

He hasn't limited himself, has been quoting, scumhunting, posting walls and reactions and overall playing the game like I think town should.

And now that he is active, welcome to the town bloc.

He is also reading everyone which is pretty important. His interactions are good.

Btw, I just realized I played in your best and worst scum game. 674 was pretty cheese....like you said, to many associations in between scum, plus, equipping my pgo shot was the first good move I ever made as town in a game of mafia...good times

682 on the other hand...i was pretty confused, good job endgaming us btw

[momo]

@Mathdino, creature is scummy, red is caught scum....

I'll unvote for now, UNVOTE: , so that we can better analyze our choices.

I'm fine with a red flip....actually, I think due to the huge association in between red and creature, the red flip would also damn creature. (Remember the early game defense)

Actually, VOTE: RedFlavor

This is probably our best bet

Pedit: While assemble is scummy and a good D3 or so lynch, right now, we want to lynch for information. Assemble's posts do not have too much content. The only information we get by assemble flipping scum is a further confirmation of jay as town which we do not really NEED right now.

We'll lynch that slot for sure, but we'll do it later.

[momo]

VC 1.17

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Creature (4) -

JaydragonKing, RedFlavor, momo, Almost50

Assemblerotws (3) -

Mathdino, Impede, Hawk

Impede (2) -

Kop, havingfitz

JaydragonKing (1) -

Assemblerotws

Almost50 (1) -

UnabombaH

RedFlavor (1) -

sheepsaysmeep

Not voting

- Creature

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-01-12 08:00:00)

I'm willing to bet, based on the trajectory of the day, that bussing isn't going on here.

That indicates to me that there's scum in {

Assemble

,

Impede

,

Hawk

}, scum in {

Creature

,

RedFlavor

,

A50

}, and then a final scum that's been in our townbloc the whole time. Probably someone in {

Impede

,

Kop

,

fitz

,

Una

}.

Green = town
Red = Scum
Yellow = null

I have narrowed likely scum to 4 candidates....there are obviously three scum

However the yellows, we have no reason to suspect them yet but they need more content

I don't like how you say it has to be creature or redflavor because creature's vote never was on red. As you say, there was no bussing in between them. And there is a link indicating buddies considering creature's defense of red....

[momo]

VC 1.17

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Creature (4) -

JaydragonKing, RedFlavor, momo, Almost50

Assemblerotws (3) -

Mathdino, Impede, Hawk

Impede (2) -

Kop, havingfitz

JaydragonKing (1) -

Assemblerotws

Almost50 (1) -

UnabombaH

RedFlavor (1) -

sheepsaysmeep

Not voting

- Creature

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-01-12 08:00:00)

I'm willing to bet, based on the trajectory of the day, that bussing isn't going on here.

That indicates to me that there's scum in {

Assemble

,

Impede

,

Hawk

}, scum in {

Creature

,

RedFlavor

,

A50

}, and then a final scum that's been in our townbloc the whole time. Probably someone in {

Impede

,

Kop

,

fitz

,

Una

}.

Green = town
Red = Scum
Yellow = null

I have narrowed likely scum to 4 candidates....there are obviously three scum

However the yellows, we have no reason to suspect them yet but they need more content

I don't like how you say it has to be creature or redflavor because creature's vote never was on red. As you say, there was no bussing in between them. And there is a link indicating buddies considering creature's defense of red....

However Una isn't as scummy as the other reds. She is more orange.

So yeah, my current scum team is assemble, creature, and red

[momo]

Taking a look at RedFlavor's ISO, it doesn't look much what I expect to come from scum even though it seems he's on the sidelines.

Does anyone have any experiences with RedFlavor? Is he usually a lurker?

These partial defenses of RedFlavor are what scream scum buddy to me...no ready to commit due to the fact Creature knows a scum flip will incriminate him but trying to subtly take the wheels of the wagon...This interaction is a solid association, of all my reads if I were to put two people who were guaranteed scum together, it would be Creature and RedFlavor.

[momo]

Taking a look at RedFlavor's ISO, it doesn't look much what I expect to come from scum even though it seems he's on the sidelines.

Does anyone have any experiences with RedFlavor? Is he usually a lurker?

These partial defenses of RedFlavor are what scream scum buddy to me...no ready to commit due to the fact Creature knows a scum flip will incriminate him but trying to subtly take the wheels of the wagon...This interaction is a solid association, of all my reads if I were to put two people who were guaranteed scum together, it would be Creature and RedFlavor.

Furthermore, Creature has since changed his reads...he still doesn't provide a solid argument and is still not pushing..reads are given after demand but truly acting upon them, a key indicator of town, is missing...

Creature + Red are my two lynch options for today...

Chances are that I don't have all 3 right, I'm actually confused on the 3rd with una appearing towny, assemble claiming that he will get back in the game, however these two, I am confident in

[momo]

So yeah, my current scum team is assemble, creature, and red

Sure, the scumteam is pretty fine with the three of them being the top three wagons...

1- Do you think Red is Town or Scum?

Not townleaning him anymore. Though, not very sure on him being scum.

2- When you say "current wagons" which wagons do you refer to? (list the players names, please)

Assemble, Redflavor and me.

3- According to you, you have been working by PoE. Who do you still have in your lynch pool after removing your Town leans?

I agree with the townblock besides Hawk, so that leaves RedFlavor, Assemble, Kop, you, UnaBombaH and Impede. I'd probably remove Impede by myself.

Quotes top three wagons are lynchbait. Is fine with agreeing with townblock that excludes the low quantity poster (myself) out and throws Kop (also low quantity) and Una into the mix.

Thank you for showing us your in-depth and amazing perspective creature.

If this is a misrep tell me how? Also why are you townleaning Fitz if his whole case ISO is against impede but you would remove Impede from your lynch pool?

You're part of my town bloc hawk...ever since you got active...i read your iso, it's town

[momo]

What do you do if:

A. RedFlavor flips green (or self-confirms)
B. Creature flips green (or self-confirms)

Do you switch to the other?

And if they both flip green/self-confirm?

Even if one flips green, (which they won't) I will go for the other because they are both individually scum as well.

If they both flip green, it's pretty much over but I highly doubt it.

I agree with Jay's 607

[momo]

that's untrue

we have 3 mislynches available to us assuming scum kills every night and no SK

game wouldn't be over

you're tunneling harder than even i do sometimes

We have 3 mislynches assuming no SK.

Not only would this be 2 of our 3, it would also mean our reads have been catastrophically wrong...you really think we are going to get an accurate lynch after that?

And I am trying my best not to tunnel, I analyze every post by every player as they come, I'm just saying that these two are the most scummy by a wide margin

[momo]

Sheep are you an alt?

[momo]

If so, of who

[momo]

pagetop?

pagetop

also pagetop

pagetop

pagetop

Pagetop

[momo]

Sheep are you an alt?

If so, of who

Don't go there or you might be asked the same.

I was just asking because of his relatively new join date (within 3 months) and the fact that he is still playing like he knows what he is doing with the level of activity you see this game.

[momo]

Sheep are you an alt?

If so, of who

Don't go there or you might be asked the same.

OH SHIT I UNDERSTOOD THAT REFERENCE

Would you like a medal for that? Or do you prefer a certificate?

Btw, how many students have you had suspended?

[momo]

Now this is getting a little off topic, I think.

Settle down kids, or I'll assign three more worksheets to your weekend homework.

leave math alone



Do you get that reference math, (it's a bit old)

[momo]

Impede, Impede, Impede....you have disappointed me greatly....

I townread you! But math's case is just to good.

Furthermore, your vote on Creature...see that looks like last ditch bussing...here's the thing, you can't bus after you are scum read for associations....That vote switch, the whole change under pressure to someone you are suspected to be buddies with, it gave you away....A tip for your next game, bus well early game...I'm not saying you won't be caught, it just won't be like this....

UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: Impede

Even though I read both as scum, Impede lynch gives us the most information...we think we are on to something but he was once in our town bloc....Impede flipping red gives us a lot...if he flips green, we still have creature and redflavor

[momo]

God Impede, you're so bad under pressure. Gonna explain myself real quick.

Last page, on after post 663, I did go spend 10 or 15 mins analysing your meta and the previous game. The connections that I thought I saw weren't there. In fact your play is 100% consistent with your town meta. I wasn't gonna immediately unvote though because the utility of extra wagon analysis outweighs the slight risk of getting you lynched.

In post 670, when I said "Let me do my thing", I thought you'd understand that I was testing a wagon on you. In 672 I wasn't even casing you and never got around to posting my review, because I already believed you were town at that point. Crumbed the reaction test wagon with "let the town do its thing".

Now I honestly don't know anymore. Your reaction in 682 isn't what I'd expect from town!Impede, as someone who respects town!Impede.
UNVOTE:

I'm so confused about this. The people who jumped on after I started the wagon are sheep and momo, both of whom I'm townreading (sheep loses points, I don't think momo can lose points in my book). I'm wondering if Impede is the token mislynch whose wagon consists entirely of townies, or if I'm just wrong and you're actually scum.

Here's the way I see this...Impede is definitely not the scummiest person right now...that's not his value as a lynch. If we want to lynch the scummiest we go Creature and RedFlavor..either one...

Impede's flip, no matter what it is, provides us a lot of information to work with, I votes impede because it seemed to me the Creature wagon was losing traction and that impede was a fine new place to put my vote

My thought for the BEST LYNCH, is without a doubt CREAUTURE...he has more content than redflavor in the effort to make himself appear towny, but is scummy...this content provides us with additional information........

In fact, since the Impede wagon is losing traction again, (I think md taking his vote of has suddenly made it much harder for it to go through) I am going to ask you all to but your vote where it really belongs, on Creature.

UNVOTE: Impede
VOTE: Creature

[momo]

Reading someone's tone is one of my weaknesses. I rely more on analysis, associations, setup spec, VCA .. etc.

Like, I could do an ISO, but most of it WILL sound forced. Like, in #74 when he blatantly accuses Jay of being SK, then follows the revelation with "Game solved". Why would TOWN consider the game solved after lynching the SK?

But let's just say that was a joke, and let's also say it was a coincidence his RVS landed on none other than Una.

Now even ignoring the link between Impede on Una I still don't see how he got from 152 to disliking momo's TR on me in 161 (if you're confident momo's Town, why is it odd fro momo to be confident in his TR on someone you already had a Town lean on?)

In 171[//post] Impeded restates his scum lean on Una (See [post]152 for the first incident) yet never once did he vote or even try to interact with Una. (same applies to Impede on Fitz, btw).

In 274 he ONCE AGAIN says Una is likely scum, and STILL NO VOTE AND NO EFFORT TO SORT/PRESSURE Una AT ALL.

Now after having shaded me in 170 for no apparent reason (it's totally NAI.. but it's how SCUM would do it??), Impede agrees with his 3-TIMES A SCUM READ on me being Scum in 286. If this isn't standard distancing between 2 buddies I don't know what is.

The whole BS of accusing you of being fence-sitty on me is him indirectly trying to pressure you into voting me.

NVM, I'll stop righ here. Overall, Impede is being tricky and sly with his posts and votes. He did see Jay's soft-claim (btw, my personal interpretation of a crumb is something that is hard to spot at the time. Jay SOFT CLAIMED. It was too obvious to be called a crumb), and he was pushing there, but he also saw my "possible crumb" and realized lynching a Hider is of higher priority bc they could just shoot the Vig at night.

In general, when someone says "this is NAI.. but Scummy" (!!!!), or "I could see this coming from Town, but it feels like scum" (he did it both to you and me) it does give me the impression this is someone keeping all his options open. If Town is lynched .. "but I said it could come from town". If Scum is lynched .. "I also said it looked like scum".

tldr; Impede is +70% scum to me. The other 30% is him being a really bad player with a problem in his self-confidence (and from what I've seen people say I don't think it the case).

Once flipped, THEN I maybe able to see things better. If he flips Scum I will maintain my SR on Una with enthusiasm. If he flips SK, then we know where the "Jay is SK.. game solved" came from. If he flips Town, I'll just reevaluate my reads and go on, but I certainly won't be taking HIS reads into account after having SR'd both me and Jay.

Damn, a50 good case...I knew there was a reason I trd you after my push on me instead of getting salty...see this is what I'm saying, I'm stuck guys...\

Who do i vote for...

This is getting to be too much..

You know what

UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: Impede

Considering that it's D1, the additional information is more important than anything...and the case against Impede is really solid...

P.S. I really love this town..first game I have played in which there has been solid scum hunting from multiple players.

I know I said I wouldn't do this but a50, mathdino, consider yourself townREADS

[momo]

But what the heck about me, Momo?

it's not really a read if it's confirmed by a claim...but since i read the claim you can be a town read too i guess

townreads, townreads everywhere

[momo]

Impede and Creature are both at L-2

Nobody is to vote either of them without explicitly saying the phrase "L-1" in that same post...nobody is to hammer without stating intent

While I think both are scummy ... i think impede flip, no matter what it is, provides more information which we could use right now

Pedit: Md 728 Will reread now, not committing to anything

[momo]

The question we need to ask ourselves is, how much will Impede flipping green hurt us...how much will Impede flipping red give us

Impede flipping red practically confirms Creature as scum

Impede flipping green however, won't change much as far as reads go

Creature flipping red will give us confidence to lynch Impede

Creature flipping green will make us doubt the impede lynch a lot, might also indicate that impede is actually town, makes us have to rethink all our reads

We need to decide what is important to us right now,

Even writing this makes me want to lynch Creature, actually...an Impede green flip leaves us confused, while red confirms something we already know...Creature read will make it so that we get of the fence with Impede and green will tell us we are still approaching this game wrong

In fact, UNVOTE: Impede

VOTE: Creature

L-2

None of you are hammering without further discussion and stating intent

[momo]

btw momo this isnt a newbie

What?

Who said this was a newbie...I was just presenting an argument in a clear, easy to follow way

[momo]

Creature flipping green will turn me to Impede, just for the record.

What about Creature flipping red...I see an association

[momo]

@Everyong

We are going to let jay shoot tonight....if there is a docteo, feel free to protect her....jailkeeper, if you are in this game, this is a request for you to stay off jay

Pedit: Guys, mafia may have a 1-shot bus driver, this is mainly to jay so just letting you know...you might want to make your choice as obscure or wifomy as possible

Pedit2: Una, who do you want to realistically want to lynch...and don't say a50, what scum do you want to lynch

Pedit3: Yay, no pagetop to sheep

Pedit4: Deal with it sheep

[momo]

There is no good way to respond to post 753

[momo]

There is no good way to respond to post 753

Other than maybe inform the authorities so they can rehab sheep lol

[momo]

I don't like that Momo is making preflip associatives or that Dino is defending Impede now and other people seem to just be like alright alright. Dino even if he is extremely towny doesn't mean he's right about impede.

Pedit: Momo directing PRs feels bad in general for the game. As much as I town read momo for his earlier comment.

Also Jay shoot whoever you feel is scummiest that we don't lynch. Just don't announce it.

Ppedit: Will analyze that weird ass statement for crumbs later.

I don't think they are that bad when you account for both sides of the flip. And the associatives do matter imo...it decides what each lynch gains us

Directing PRs, not so much...I think jay made it clear she is shooting tonight so i am just pointing out that common sense is not to jailkeep her

Jay can kill and the other prs can target whomever they like

Guys, this isn't just because of how it's coming at me but I think Hawk might be scum...here me out okay

He comes in without any solid evidence just to defend impede...his main defence for impede is attacking the credibility of my accusation

I don't know if you guys see this but if I was Impede's buddy, this is pretty close to what I would do

[momo]

smae to hawk

What does smae mean

And I don't think telling JK to stay of vig is scummy in the slightest...it's just reinforcing common sense for town

[momo]

My interpretation is that he's supporting the impede case and is attacking my credibility and defence of him.

Pronoun mixup.

I'm not attacking you. I'm prefacing my distaste at people like Momo and Sheep that almost immediate unvoted at your decision to townlean impede. You can have your read and it be valid. I don't share that opinion (you even say it's mostly meta and feel based) but two others immediately followed your suit not forming opinions of their own.

I've been flip flopping in my head for a while no, I was just going back and forth in between impede and creature, math had nothing to do with it...unless I am too busy to read, I don't sheep people

[momo]

God Impede, you're so bad under pressure. Gonna explain myself real quick.

Last page, on after post 663, I did go spend 10 or 15 mins analysing your meta and the previous game. The connections that I thought I saw weren't there. In fact your play is 100% consistent with your town meta. I wasn't gonna immediately unvote though because the utility of extra wagon analysis outweighs the slight risk of getting you lynched.

In post 670, when I said "Let me do my thing", I thought you'd understand that I was testing a wagon on you. In 672 I wasn't even casing you and never got around to posting my review, because I already believed you were town at that point. Crumbed the reaction test wagon with "let the town do its thing".

Now I honestly don't know anymore. Your reaction in 682 isn't what I'd expect from town!Impede, as someone who respects town!Impede.
UNVOTE:

I'm so confused about this. The people who jumped on after I started the wagon are sheep and momo, both of whom I'm townreading (sheep loses points, I don't think momo can lose points in my book). I'm wondering if Impede is the token mislynch whose wagon consists entirely of townies, or if I'm just wrong and you're actually scum.

Here's the way I see this...Impede is definitely not the scummiest person right now...that's not his value as a lynch. If we want to lynch the scummiest we go Creature and RedFlavor..either one...

Impede's flip, no matter what it is, provides us a lot of information to work with, I votes impede because it seemed to me the Creature wagon was losing traction and that impede was a fine new place to put my vote

My thought for the BEST LYNCH, is without a doubt CREAUTURE...he has more content than redflavor in the effort to make himself appear towny, but is scummy...this content provides us with additional information........

In fact, since the Impede wagon is losing traction again, (I think md taking his vote of has suddenly made it much harder for it to go through) I am going to ask you all to but your vote where it really belongs, on Creature.

UNVOTE: Impede
VOTE: Creature

Really? he had nothing to do with it momo??

Yes, he had nothing to do with my final decision...Math's posts got me thinking....I weighed the pros and cons (later illustrated in my post on what each flip means) and then I voted...of course he got me to think...but that's what every post does, get you to think what it means....it didn't however impact my final decision

[momo]

Yo guys, what would you think if I created an alt, called it the shepard and did something like this

I will still scum hunt as normal except my vote, gets attatched to the towniest person I can find 15 pages in and is stuck there until they die at which point I choose again...I vote for whomever this person votes

[momo]

Well, the mod killed the thread

omg, we've had a modkill...first in a game I've been in

(pls r8 the koke on a scae of 1-10)

[momo]

I was gonna post a reads list at some point but the above reads list is basically identical to mine. I don't know how to feel about that. Like if you took the in-thread progression of my thoughts and made up a "Most Likely Mathdino's Reads List" that's what you'd come up with.

So I almost did as promised. I perused Impede's meta in a couple games (Mini Normal 1961 and something else) for the specific behaviour of "repeatedly calls someone scum without voting them or pushing them". I didn't find it. So I came back to the thread to find out exactly what I was looking for. And then I discovered that A50's case is actually horseshit if you actually look at Impede's ISO.

An Itemized List of Impede's Trajectory On Una: Bonus Edition, With Annotations!

It's too early for this crap.

VOTE: Una

This is consistent with what he claimed earlier this page.

Momo, Jay
Math, A50

Kop, Hawk

Una, Fitz
-

This places Una as a top scumread.

Also, this isn't accomplishing anything right now. UNVOTE:

No one joins the Una wagon so he leaves it to go check out the town consensus. Scum would be more benefited from dying on this tunnel, IMO. It would leave him unaccountable for any major wagons.

I also want everyone to try again on who they scumread/want to lynch for today.
Both Elsa and Red are on the table as lynch-candidates, but I have reason to believe I already found scum, and his buddies conveniently "missed" the tells.
Turning towards the easy target (Elsa) right now makes me think there's already scum in the wagon..

Please just explain. Game's slow enough that I think you're gonna have to wait a while before you get answers from everyone.

In case you needed more evidence on Una being town, A50, there you go. Scum doesn't write shit like this.

Wtf? Epically disagree. I could just as easily argue that he's trying to defuse the wagon by sounding all cryptic and wise, while being non-specific so that he doesn't actually have to have a plan.

Continues not-townreading Una. Consistent with his claim earlier this page.

If this wasn't posted by scum, I'm not sure what kind of a townie it would be posted by.

This is utterly and completely valid.

You can see the evolution. I left out a question toward Una earlier on this page because it indicates nothing.

Una, what's your take on Jay? You really think he's just lynchbait?

pedit: Definitely not what I was getting at. And your case on A50 is decent on its face. I'll be reviewing. Also, not a fan of introducing further WIFOM layers by trying to predict what scum will do in-thread. Makes everything more annoying to analyze.

And now he's working with Una.

That's it. A50's case is balls. I'm gonna go through it and actually factcheck him this time. The first time I read it I just took everything he said at face value.
To reiterate just in case future historians of my ISO don't get this:
My case on Impede originally relied on weirdass interactions directed from Impede toward the RedFlavor and Creature wagons. Fencesitting, nullreading, chainsaw defending. After my review of his meta, I've determined this is NAI.

My read on Impede is back to null. He's being consistent with his town meta, but I have no sense of his scumgame to be able to just gutread him from the hip. If we lynch him, it's gonna be on D2 when we actually have the ability to analyse his motivations. Thus far, I see neither excessive (solely) town nor scum motivation.

This wagon should die and go to Creature instead. I'm guessing that at least one or two people on the wagon knew we were unlikely to lynch Impede and sat on the wagon to avoid accountability later.

VOTE: Creature

L-something, someone else do the math

to the best of my knowledge,

L-1

Nobody hammer without stating intent

[momo]

Spoilering the parts of A50's case I consider nonessential. Lettering to respond. Knowing Impede, there's no fuckin way he's gonna actually defend himself in time for the deadline so here goes.

Spoiler:

Reading someone's tone is one of my weaknesses. I rely more on analysis, associations, setup spec, VCA .. etc.

Like, I could do an ISO, but most of it WILL sound forced. Like, in #74 when he blatantly accuses Jay of being SK, then follows the revelation with "Game solved". Why would TOWN consider the game solved after lynching the SK?

But let's just say that was a joke, and let's also say it was a coincidence his RVS landed on none other than Una.

A. Now even ignoring the link between Impede on Una I still don't see how he got from 152 to disliking momo's TR on me in 161 (if you're confident momo's Town, why is it odd fro momo to be confident in his TR on someone you already had a Town lean on?)

B. In 171 Impeded restates his scum lean on Una (See 152 for the first incident) yet never once did he vote or even try to interact with Una. (same applies to Impede on Fitz, btw).

B. In 274 he ONCE AGAIN says Una is likely scum, and STILL NO VOTE AND NO EFFORT TO SORT/PRESSURE Una AT ALL.

C. Now after having shaded me in 170 for no apparent reason (it's totally NAI.. but it's how SCUM would do it??), Impede agrees with his 3-TIMES A SCUM READ on me being Scum in 286. If this isn't standard distancing between 2 buddies I don't know what is.

Spoiler:

The whole BS of acvusing you of being fence-sitty on me is him indirectly trying to pressure you into voting me.

D. NVM, I'll stop right here. Overall, Impede is being tricky and sly with his posts and votes. He did see Jay's soft-claim (btw, my personal interpretation of a crumb is something that is hard to spot at the time. Jay SOFT CLAIMED. It was too obvious to be called a crumb), and he was pushing there, but he also saw my "possible crumb" and realized lynching a Hider is of higher priority bc they could just shoot the Vig at night.

E. In general, when someone says "this is NAI.. but Scummy" (!!!!), or "I could see this coming from Town, but it feels like scum" (he did it both to you and me) it does give me the impression this is someone keeping all his options open. If Town is lynched .. "but I said it could come from town". If Scum is lynched .. "I also said it looked like scum".

E. tldr; Impede is +70% scum to me. The other 30% is him being a really bad player with a problem in his self-confidence (and from what I've seen people say I don't think it the case).

Spoiler:

Once flipped, THEN I maybe able to see things better. If he flips Scum I will maintain my SR on Una with enthusiasm. If he flips SK, then we know where the "Jay is SK.. game solved" came from. If he flips Town, I'll just reevaluate my reads and go on, but I certainly won't be taking HIS reads into account after having SR'd both me and Jay.

A. This is taken dangerously out of context. He didn't state confidence in his townread on momo in 152. He literally said it was just gutreading from the past 2-3 pages. He specifically states his dislike of momo's TR on you (161) as a PEdit in response to momo's 160. It's very obvious you only looked at these posts in ISOlation.

B. You're literally wrong. He voted Una in 47, restated his scumread in 171, and unvoted in 261. He doesn't state an explicit scumread on Una in 274, he's just arguing with me townsorting him. This has no scum utility. I was already discrediting Una's play, but not his alignment. It doesn't help scumpede to be one of like two people discrediting Una's alignment. He was also at the time voting/pressuring Jay, who was clearly his stronger scumread.

C. 170 is his playstyle, see point E. 286 is him supporting Una for your weirdo "we're relying on night actions" 272 post. This is also seemingly part of his read reversal on Una. After that, he works with Una. I know you think this is scum-scum but I know I think Una is town, so reading into this as some kind of weird nonstandard buddy interaction won't go anywhere.

D. Godawful point. I'll lay it out here: If Scumpede thought you were hider, he's not gonna try to lynch you. Trying to lynch you would force you to claim and then get you not-lynched. It's like you have no idea how scum actually deal with PRs. If Scumpede thinks you're hider, he's just gonna shoot the guy you're hiding behind (Creature). And if they're BOTH scum, okay, MAYBE. But then we should be flipping Creature.

E. From what I say, the self-confidence thing is ENTIRELY the case. His meta is fencesitting like everyone, weighing "well, would town say this?" and "would scum say this?" He's not a SUPER pushy player and he regularly flip-flops without actually explaining to everyone why. If anything,

this is town-indicative

, as scum should be more interested in maintaining a clear and simple and easy-to-follow trajectory. The main reason I'm not outright townreading him for this behaviour is because Impede knows that I know his meta, and might be playing like this on purpose.

He also tries to claim towncred for his fencesitting when he's town, which is laughable, but also makes that kind of thing NAI.

You're deeeeep in tunnel mode. You looked at his posts in isolation and not context to the extent that literally the majority of your points are flat-out wrong.

Follow-up post in a second.

math, who is this directed at...I'm not voting impede

[momo]

Oh thank god that's not a hammer

Sheep, don't change your avatar if you are in the middle of a game ever, it's annoying

Is there anyone seriously opposed to a creature win

[momo]

I'm afraid that a few players (cough you, and me earlier) are just skimming well-written cases and being swayed.

OK, this is EXACTLY what I was saying in my previous post: I feel like certain players have been lead on by impressive LOOKING cases, that are nothing but smoke and mirrors.
I feel like A50 got a too easy townread from some.
I think Impede got scumread because of the way people stacked on their "scumreads" on top of each others previous ones - not checking whether they even agreed with everything or even MOST.

I myself have found posts from Impede that I thought could be interpreted as scummy, but my main read on him is Town.
If I were to just take those few parts I disliked and added them on the pile of "cases" others have built, I would've ended up death tunneling him to the end.

On this same notion, I think sheep has been either scummy or lazy - not making the effort to start of case from the scratch.
MathDino is making the effort, BUT I'm seriously getting worried it's just posing.
I get a feeling he is currently trying to pocket and "appease" me, and him as town would have no reason to do so.
I like the fact that he provides so much to read though - if he's scum he is almost bound to make a mistake or monitor his posting so heavily it should be visible lategame.

MY BIGGEST REASON FOR WANTING A50 TO FLIP, IS BECAUSE A RED MONKEY WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY BE PARTNERED WITH A RED DINO.

#MyLastCaseFile #ifTomorrowNeverComes #NailThemScumsters #DontTrustA50 #BeWaryOfMomo #InactiveTowniesNeedToVote #YouHaveAVoice

But both of them so green man
Why you trying this lynch
Be an obedient fan

[momo]

I believe A50 will not be the lynch today, but I'm certainly going to keep investigating the game with the theory of A50+momo.

Dino is my paranoia-scumread, but likely town. (he seems to be a genuinely nice guy and actively keeps the peace, which I MIGHT HAVE MISTAKEN for pocketing)

The third scum is either SK or can be found in the inactives (in which case we will likely find them with the VCAs later)

a50 and momo
but momo ain't scum though
why you still tryin' bro
We town, you know

[momo]

I did some VCA with set assumptions, and wrote the results in excel. I now have a few scenarios where (depending on who we lynch, and who flips after the night), I can comfortably start drawing associations.

I want you to download this excel file and reasoning and post it in this thread

if it looks legit, I will consider siding with you

(btw, how were my freestyles in the above two posts, r8 outta 10 m8)

P.S. rate out of 10 mate
prove you ain't lynch bait

[momo]

Guys, sheepsaysmeep entered the modding queue exactly 3 months from his join date (lol)

[momo]

Anything important that everyone should know?

I’ll iso when needed.

Anyone found a way to break this setup?

Here's a tip...actually read the game from the beginning to now

Why are there so few votes on Creature....wasn't he at something like

L-1

and now he is at L-3.....still

[momo]

JaydragonKing has vote parked on creature?
No one else has seemed scumy to you?

Creature is evidently the ideal lynch for today....mathdino has also comitted at him so technically

L-2

jay has claimed vigilante

[momo]

JaydragonKing has vote parked on creature?
No one else has seemed scumy to you?

Creature is evidently the ideal lynch for today....mathdino has also comitted at him so technically

L-2

jay has claimed vigilante

The question was for jay.

SK is possible in this setup, right?

Yes SK is possible and vig is the correct cc for SK

[momo]

Screeplay...can you please read the whole game before voting...your votes won't be meaningful unless you have read the whole game

[momo]

pagetop

Fixed that up

[momo]

Creature flipping green will turn me to Impede, just for the record.

Before this you are saying you are not ok with their lynch but you leave the door open to lynch the if creature flips green.
Feels a little disingenuous

Which is still pretty strange because there is a clear link in between them

[momo]

I'm a shitty tonereader; I read based on motivation and general psychology. My read on his motivation is fundamentally based on exactly how much reading he's done, and now that I've said that, Srcumplay would just lie about it.

I defer to people who are provably good tonereaders/gutreaders and people who've played with him before.

@momo:

I was bored and reading mafia games, came across the end of Surreptitious Mafia. Everyone suggested Creature was the town MVP and had amazing reads, but badly communicated them.
Do you feel like this is our highest utility lynch? (aka do you think his game will improve)
Do you think he's playing against his town meta?

After playing in surreptitious (quite poorly) I know that even though he didn't communicate them, Creature at least had reads...Creature is a good player but he is not charismatic in the slightest....

However, this game, he doesn't even have the bare bones...this is different than surreptitious, so yeah, I would say Creature is still scum

[momo]

Okay, I finally got back to computer.

Are you claiming scum, vt..................

[momo]

Your on Death's door, man. This wagon has literally no chance of moving anywhere else unless you give it a reason too via claiming a role.

At this point, you are encouraging a fake claim


from this point forth, I won't believe what creature claims

[momo]

You all backed off when I finally said I was Vig. Is this any different?

You weren't repeatedly pressured for a claim like this....at this point, because of the pressure, scum!creature would guaranteed claim PR...claim pr right now would park my vote harder

If he was really a pr, he would have already claimed

[momo]

So the most recent post in central park is buy creature so he is online

where r u boi

[momo]

momo @ screenplay

[momo]

@Everyone

: Now is the right time to vote Creature...he has nothing to claim and isn't even attempting to defend himself...caught scum

[momo]

I know that vca is shit but the huge delay on creature's lynch indicates scum...if he was town, scum would have pushed it through

[momo]

That's an 18 months old game!

but it's the best example I remember.

Creature, I don't wanna tunnel...a50 has put you at L-1...please claim

even claim vt if you have to


@everyone else, if this lynch doesn't go through...thoughts on a red flavor lynch

[momo]

he isn't claiming so that people don't hammer him

[momo]

Anything important that everyone should know?

I’ll iso when needed.

Anyone found a way to break this setup?

No, just no..I have replaced into games frequently and I can say that when I get a town pm...if the game is withing 50 pages, I will ask for a summary but actually have the intent to read and scumhunt...something like this; hands down lazy scum.

A50: looks town

Creature: nullscum, posting style feels a bit forced

fitz: first serious vote, doesn't really try to take credit for ending RVS, seems town

Impede: i have no idea what he's talking about in regards to Una but probably town just towning around

Jay: seems to be actively playing to his own meta. i don't think his behavior is super alignment indicative in general, and he's kind of a fluffy fluffer. i'm good with lynching him as a player until he learns not to be scummy. but then again he's probably town doing that weird "forced meta" thing

Kop: POLICY LYNCH. idk him giving advice to jay seems really forced, the way he's doing it. like he's speaking as a player and not as a townie?

Red: vague townish vibes

Una: i can't read any of this shit but i hope he contributes soon

everyone else: get in here so i can scumread you pls

Can you elaborate on some of these, because this is striking me as forced reads. Your accusing me of looking forced, this is more forced shit rather than actual reads.

How does Almost50 look town, what does town look like? He's made one RVS vote, and one filler post. How does that make him look town?

Creature, if you believe he is nullscum, why aren't you voting him since he's virtually your only scum read?

Impede, how is he towning around?

Jay, so your happy to lynch someone just to learn them to stop acting scummy, rather than actually lynching someone who you scum read? Do you scum read Jay or not?

Myself, your talking about policy lynching someone on page 4, and no reason because Fitz has painted myself as a policy lynch because of previous games.

Overall, reading these reads, I don't think they are actually genuine reads right now, and is just trying to look active.

VOTE: Mathdino

Agree with kop.
Seems kinda early to have enough confidence in giving reads to that many people.
On top of that, a lot were town leans.

Making votes based on post 90 on post 900 is nonsense....especially when the person you are voting is part of the town leadership and leading a wagon on likely scum.

VOTE: impede

I think as of now I would rather this slot be the lynch and I haven’t even seen creature yet.

Voting without reading... a solid scum reason to be able to protect your buddy as a replace in but not something town worth the space their post takes up would ever do.

VOTE: Dino

Not helpful

Math,
Summarize Kop and Fitz for us.

Was hard scum reading dino....now want's dino's opinion to shape his reads instead of actually scum hunting...

tl;dr....screen is likely scum due to the above posts and assemblerotws' opportunistic vote

due to recent events and screen's impede vote, impede is likely town

VOTE: Screenplay

[momo]

Guys, assemble saw things not going well for him and his scum buddy creature...replaced out based on time constraints

He just /inned for another game

Clear tactical replace out, condemning the slot as scum

[momo]

The only thing about momo on me that I can see make sense is my impede Vote.
The rest is just bs.
You can’t assume what you do on replace in is what everyone else does.
I replace into all my games the same way. Start playing from then on taking advice as needed. Isoing when someone catches my eye.
I asked Dino for personal thoughts not because I’m following them. I asked so I can see thought process and reasoning. Wanted to see if they were bs’ing their thoughts. Didn’t want to confirm bias and thought it my be away for me to get a fresh look.
In conclusion it feels like momo is defending a buddy.

B.S. and you know it....me and dino hardly interact like buddies.

1.) No body would so blatantly town read the other like we (or at least I am doing)
2.) What kind of scum team has two players who led the lynch on their third member..and not just led...pushed it through. (A lynch you were opposed to for no apparent reason...don't think that I missed that).
3.) We're both trying to help town as much as we can, pushing content, reads, and DOING ORIGINAL SCUMHUNTING...which is more than you are I believe...

[momo]

Okay, these bull shit mathdino votes are not getting us anywhere!

This is not me defending a buddy but stating the obvious...md is scumhunting...he is trying to crack the setups...md has a meta of trying to crack setups as town along with substansive scum hunting....please stop wasting your votes

Join us on the screen wagon...can anyone tell me that they honestly townread that slot

[momo]

not vig

[momo]

Someone (Hawk) asked for my lynch pool / Reads

Town/not lynching

Mathdino

Hawk

havingfitz

Impede

Doubt they are scum but not strong town either

sheepsaysmeep

Kop

UnaBombaH

Scummy AF

AnonymousGhost

Screenplay

The overall order is rank based as well

Una is either scum or really bad town (poor reads)...still not nearly as scummy as screen/assemble and AG/red

All colors are that way for a reason

I am in between for Impede, sheep, and Una

[momo]

@momo...do you think Anon is mafia (please see my post on the subject to Kop) or SK?

I honestly don't know...he's scummy...that's all I got...

Right now, I wanna focus on the screen lynch and see what we get from that

[momo]

Right now, I wanna focus on the screen lynch and see what we get from that

You will get a dead

town

Scum

.
What do you get from that? (Other than being one step closer from being the game)

Why say this? How does this help anyone?

Because it sounds to me like he’s saying “eh, yolo”
I’m saying no it’s not eh. It is a bad decision. It’s definite. What good comes from it.

But I'm not saying yolo...boi you scum....sorry that you had to roll that way...it's nothing personal

[momo]

VOTE: momo

hahahahahaha

You wanna vote someone, it better be for a damn good reason...not voting them back for voting you

That vote is scummy af

[momo]

VOTE: momo

Naked vote really sheep -_-

you have disappointed me

You are now in the scummy af section

Out of the blue voting me because of want...the fact that I was scum hunting

Get your vote of me now

Genuinely considering a sheep wagon at this point...not as scummy as screen/assemble but if I need to compromise, I will

[momo]

momo - His early statement that he doesn't believe in town reads was ironic given that he handed a few of those out throughout D1. 683 and 717 are hedgy. Momo claims (683) that both Impede and Creature are scum, but says that Impede should be lynched first because of "more info" but doesn't explain what sort of information we could gain.

Momo says this again and again but never explains what sort of information we'd gain. At a later point when Impede's wagon is loosing traction, Momo undermines his statements on Scum!Impede saying that Impede is not the scummiest lynch candidate. Instead, favoring a Creature wagon saying that "he has more content than redflavor in the effort to make himself appear towny, but is scummy" (717). He undermines this again in 729 when he address that "While I think both - (Creature & Impede) - are scummy ... i think impede flip, no matter what it is, provides more information which we could use right now" with no mention of RedFlavor at all.

- Your momo read is uninformed I think by the context of his conversation with Jay. Check my, momo's, or Impede's ISOs to find it and read it in context. I said something like "momo just rocketed to the top of my townlist". Let me know what you think.

Town reads early game are frowned upon...yet the way the game got played resulted in a lot of people becoming obv town.....they are still reads however and not irreversible...this is what I was really trying to say

I did flip flop between creature and impede...I was confused...I thought impede would give more info...was not considering red because it wouldn't really change the game state...not an ideal D1 lynch....eventually math pushed impede, brought about a read change...I considered it , and decided that Creature would by far be safer...I was confused....think that is more town than scum

I am not a perfect player people...hell I'm not even that great at mafia..but I think I have a good, town handle on this game...good post by the way ag...I really wish i was an investigative role at this point

[momo]

momo alisae wants to know if you still want to do her anything upick

also that post is like
really bad
it's mostly a fluffy ate defense

yeah I still want in...should i tell alisae???

[momo]

looks like I'm getting lynch today...y'all know my reads...any chance I can change your mind...I think I have played as good town

and due to sheeping every single potential wagon in the game

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

[momo]

i provided my own reasoning

It's still opportunistic af

[momo]

yeah that's not sheeping

and yeah every person i voted was one of my sr's?
except i voted you cause you had a really really really bad post and idek where im at this day phase like i have no idea what's going on except mathdino rolefishing

Don't you think that mathdino admitting to rolefishing and giving a reason is more of a town reaction than a caught scum reaction...

[momo]

Yes/no: Are you one of the following roles: {1-shot Commuter, Tracker, Gunsmith}

No

[momo]

UNVOTE:

While I am happy you are unvoting...a nake unvote is not going to cut it

How does this change your reads, what's going on

This looks like scum trying to get of a town lynch while they can

VOTE: screenplay

[momo]

i explained my vote in my next post
it was really more of a vote to respond to a really bad post
and his read on me was too fluctuaty
like i was most town in the category "likely not scum" or smth
then i vote him
after my explanation he still categorizes it as a naked vote and moves me to scummy af
like now he has out of the blue new reasons sort of
also i did explain why i thought he was coasty recently

Sheep I townreadish you because I thought spammy was your playstyle

When screen told me all your votes were pretty naked, i looked back...that way you're playing bullshit...believe me if the screen lynch doesn't go through, I'm coming for you

[momo]

hold on im writing a wall

sheep writing a wall....b.s. you are changing your playstyle 'cause ur caught scum

[momo]

listen boy...you know what this looks like...you defending a scum buddy...

you hopped on every single wagon except for the ones on assemble/screen

In fact...you were defending asseble...saying you liked him for town even though there was no content to cause a townread

everyone, go to sheep's iso and ctrl+f assemble...every single mention has sheep defending that slot

n00b!scum at it's finest

y'all can choose a vote, sheep or screen...I'm fine on either

[momo]

Momo please don't join the shit train

There's 1 scum left

i read your setupspec...is this 100 percent

is so...whelp

okay, going individual...kop's play is how I would expect somebody good but not great scum to play (not great because it is still recognizable)


anyone remember playing with scum!kop...what's he like

[momo]

@Screen

Can you explain why Kop, Hawk, and fitz are in that list?

No. Not to your satisfaction.

Scum

why aren't we lynching this

[momo]

Edit: momo, don't go tunnel mode. You know that post is NAI.

It's not that post that's scummy

It's the fact they went from pulling on a huge case on me to mostly naked vote and unsubstantial statements

[momo]

That ^^^ is playing like pressured scum

[momo]

I def agree with dino over screen on una being SK...it's not the scum aspects, it's the creature interactions.

Also, they do not seem to be pushing in the same direction...attacking a50, me, and I think math, the main town!bloc for this game does not seem like something group scum would do, it's more of a sk kind of move....

And as I mentioned earlier, I'm good with a sheep wagon...screen's is not taken of and I like that he hunted for Una when nobody else seemed really sure on that slot as scum...I will put him in the not really towny, not really scummy category for now.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

[momo]

Question...if we are in the 1 mafia 1 SK remaining configuration...that means we probably have 1 town PR still out there. How does helping scum narrow down what the final town pr might be (or who it might be) help town?

Because if we have 1 mafia 1 SK, the PRs I listed

literally can't exist

.

Double tracker requires III.
Gunsmith requires RR.
1-shot commuter requires HH.

Once you and Kop confirm that you're neither of these roles, we'll have almost-confirmed 1 mafia left.

I can confirm I'm neither of those roles.

VOTE: Red

I'll be happy to vote Red or Una at this stage.

Question...if we are in the 1 mafia 1 SK remaining configuration...that means we probably have 1 town PR still out there. How does helping scum narrow down what the final town pr might be (or who it might be) help town?

Because if we have 1 mafia 1 SK, the PRs I listed

literally can't exist

.

Double tracker requires III.
Gunsmith requires RR.
1-shot commuter requires HH.

Once you and Kop confirm that you're neither of these roles, we'll have almost-confirmed 1 mafia left.

I can confirm I'm neither of those roles.

VOTE: Red

I'll be happy to vote Red or Una at this stage.

I didn't mean red meant this

VOTE: Sheep

I think Kop just townslipped...scum would always be careful with their vote and who they are voting for...town on the other hand, I can see them messing up like this and then fixing it in the next post

[momo]

yo

well this moved quickly overnight

No defense...claim?.....nothing

[momo]

@Mathdino

Don't take your vote of sheep just yet....

We have 4 on right now (counting Kop)....you would make 5...pretty sure we can convince fitz, that's enough for a majority...state that you are fine with a una lynch like I did, don't change your vote because that causes the sheep wagon to lose all momentum

Officialy sheep went from L-1 to L-3.... you really think that's going to cause any pressure on anyone?

[momo]

Recent revelations unfortunately leave fitz out of the townbloc.

never said he was in the bloc...just counting on him to be reasonable enough to provide his vote..if not, then I might have to seriously rethink some reads

[momo]

Hey math....when I said there were obv 3 scum...i meant group scum because the only other time I played a semi-open there were 3 scum..I just always thought 13 player equals 10:3 or 9:3:1 ... I have now learnt that I was wrong.

I mentioned the SK to help us keep track of how many mislynches we can afford...

And no, I am not playing dumb...I have never played with only 2 group scum in a non multiball 13 player game

[momo]

On creature associations alone

I just ctrl+f Creature in fitz's iso

He seems to really be overanalyzing the creature lynch...that being said, I don't really see him as scum, nor do I remember the case against him

[momo]

Is math alone in thinking una is sk?

Not nessacarily...I don't really sk hunt but I could see a una sk....una is scummy but the attacking of the strong towns (a50, momo, mathdino) is a more sk way to play than group scum

[momo]

Is math alone in thinking una is sk?

Why are you voting him then?

My interpretation is because you think he killed A50.

Well in all likelihood, SK killed A50.

this makes sense

[momo]

sheep is at

L-1

oh and impede.....those original comebacks...just, *shook* lol

Oh btw if any of y'all hammer, I won;t think any worse of you

[momo]

Called Creature+RedFlavor D1

[momo]

But congrats math..in awe of this performance