Open 709: Masons and Monks (Game Over)

[Almost50]

I don't believe in introductions. I'd rather let my actions talk for/about me.

VOTE: Mathdino

For not being in the game!

[Almost50]

VOTE: Assemblerotws
For lurking the next two weeks.

Good one!

[Almost50]

Oh, pkease! Not a train on Jay, AGAIN!

Well, at least Jay+momo and Jay+Moz are not valid scum team combinations.

[Almost50]

I've been told I'm naturally scummy, Almost. This is probably par for the course in all my games in the future.

Elsa Jay is to loud to ignore day one. Or any day for that matter.

You're "strange" not scummy! Unfortunately, most people confuse the two. You're mostly being SR'd for playing in an unorthodox way (it used to be a problem for me too, and it still is when I play someone for the first time).

[Almost50]

Well, at least Jay+momo and Jay+Moz are not valid scum team combinations.

Why wouldn't they?

dave, please. We're still on page 2 so it's not even that hard to read the whole thing. Busing is not an option on D1 for a 2-players scum team, and it's not like either is pushing Jay for the fun of it.

[Almost50]

Still though, this could be jay distancing himself/herself(?) from the werewolves..let's just wait and see

I'm not hunting for a specific group over the other with no flips at all, so I don't care. All I;m doing is draw associations between all possible "couples" for being "scum1", "scum2" or "masons1" & "masons2".

Now give me a Mafia/WW flip and I will start looking specifically for the partner of that flipped scumster (i.e. trying to eliminate a specific scum team).

[Almost50]

I also have fanfiction.net open, as well as being on the versus wiki trying to figure out who would win in fictional fights, and watching a reaction video to Dragonball Super episode 123. I never keep one tab open.

You can't possibly do all that simultaneously when you're only a Capricorn! Only a GEMINI can do that kind of multitasking with any efficiency!

[Almost50]

Uhh... I commented on it too, Mister Beef. Three others (one being Assemble himself) agreed.

But hey, whether he's the fun police, or I fucked up his joke instead, is up for the audience to decide! A prompt will appear, so be sure to check under your seats and vote

Yay

or

Nay

on your company given tablets!

Yay

for him being the fun police or

Nay

being he made a joke and I fucked it up.

this all looks very nervous and self conscious.
serious vote.
VOTE: jaydragon

I'll accept the arguments from dave/Jay regarding the momo vote. However, does the above quote from moz suggest RVS? Does moz put the 3rd vote on (his partner) Jay with such reasoning, making it utterly hard for him to retract if 2 more votes were added there regardless of what reasoning the additional votes have?

I also, don't get the "purpose" of your argument, dave. I didn't declare anyone Tpwn or near Town. I only said these were unlikely pairing for one scum team. They could still be all Scum from different factions (Jay being on one side and either or both moz & momo on the other). No big deal, I think.

[Almost50]

@momo: Do you ever wonder why you're lynchbait?? It's because you post before you think. You unvoted Jay and agreed it was his play style, then you revoted him for an even sillier reason, then you backed off when Jay pointed out how bad your reasoning was, and then you declare Assemble is "

the only other possible wagon

" with no explanation.

Can you explain the underlined to me, please?

[Almost50]

@Jay: Statistically speaking; the BEST way to avoid being lynched/NK'd in Mafia is to avoid PLAYING Mafia. NEVER has anyone NOT playing in a game been lynched/shot in said game.

Almost50 ---------- Town (if I didn't have my roe PM I wouldn't have been able to tell, tbh)
mozamis ---------- Town lean (Lots of content, but nothing superbly AI, and NOTHING SCUMMY so far)
Dunnstral --------- Null (Probably modding a game and doesn't have time for this game!)
Kotoko Utsugi ---- Null (I remember Dunn posted a question mark. I don't think this slot posted at all)
ShadeadMelee --- Null (see above)
Beefster ---------- Null (I remember the avatar more than anything they've posted)
JaydragonKing --- Town lean (Hard to be conclusive when I've never seen Scum!Jay, but I've seen Town!Jay before and it looks like this)
davesaz ---------- Town lean (Voice of reason. Always asks "strange" questions, but that's how he scum hunts)
momo ------------ Town lean (If this is also how he plays Scum he's bound to get caught sooner than later)
talon152 -------- Null (Not sure if they posted yet)
Raya36 ---------- Null (one day I'll be able to tell the difference between her Scum!lurking and her Town!lurking)
Assemblerotws - Null (Nice hat)
Archwing -------- Null (I know he's posting, but the only time he tried giving feedback it was "piggybacking" Jay's meta)

Suffice it to say we're into page 4 and all I have is a personal preference to the more active posters. THIS DOESN'T LOOK GOOD!

So, maybe it's time for some of my own crazy shit (this trademark is under the protection of the law. Do NOT redistribute without explicit authorization from the original shitter. This shit is hazardous, toxic, radiant and highly inflammable, and could cause serious damage to you leading to your lynch if used improperly.)

IF YOU WERE TO ROLL SCUM AND WAS GIVEN THE CHOICE TO PICK ONE PARTNER FROM THIS GAME PLAYER LIST, WHO WOULD THAT BE? EXPLAIN.

[Almost50]

*Sigh*

Maybe you haven't paid enough attention, but I said NOTHING SCUMMY from moz so far. This indicates prior experience with him and his play being the same as his usual NAI play (I'm not sure I played Scum!moz before. If I did, please remind me with the game, moz).

My most recent game with him was this one. and if you ISO him there it's more or less similar to his play here (with the exception he had to be more cautious there bc we were Masons and only Masons could be shot, yet eventually he was the only Mason that did get shot).

[Almost50]

Now if you also ISO me in that game you probably will see why moz would have a Town lean on me here. It's not a pocketing/buddying attempt. It's a meta read based on the way I started that game and the game before (where I was also Town).

[Almost50]

@momo: By now you should know I do pay attention to WHY people TR me, even if they don't say it explicitly. If I can't find a convincing reason for the TR I would ask them for one, and if still unsatisfied I'd probably be suspicious of them.

[Almost50]

@moz / @Jay: You both posted after I did and didn't respond to the theoretical question I posed. Please pick your preferred scum partner if you were Scum and were given the option to choose a p. Thanks

[Almost50]

I'm not against a wagon on Archwing (see 80)

VOTE: Archwing

[Almost50]

With a player who posted twice, 3 who posted once each, and two who never posted we need to have "something: to by, be that meta, theoretical questions, or even wagoning one of them to L-1. I feel like I'm playing this game with Jay/momo/dave/moz and nobody else!!!

[Almost50]

@Jay: LOL. No, but he's probably stalking ME.

@Mathdino: WELCOME. I'll claim a Mason-Monk. Can you figure that one out??

[Almost50]

9/13 VT
1/11 Monk
1/11 Mason

(9/13)*(1/11)*(1/11)=0.00572, or 0.57 % I think

[Almost50]

I'm pretty sure he's not claiming both because that'll just lead us into counterclaim city.

OF COURSE I wasn't legit claiming both (nor even either). I was baiting you into probabilities territory. I don't hink Assemble bough the claim either, and I think he also wanted you to do the math.

[Almost50]

awrright! This IS Town!momo alright.

[Almost50]

@momo:

Spoiler: Read this POST-GAME (I have a short memory so won't remember what I want to say by then)

When someone starts calling another scummy at the start of the game for THE WRONG REASONS I'm likely to intercept it before it develops into something nasty. For one thing, it helps me reduce the extra noise so I can get better reads on TRUE content. For another, it give me a better read on the person being SR'd later on (if you Sr someone for the wrong reasons and you are proven wrong it makes it harder for everyone else to SR them later on). Last, but not least, tuning down the extra noise helps replacements catch-up faster and more efficiently.

I defended you before and you had no problem with it. I defended Jay in this game and you didn't suspect him being my p. And if you READ THE GAME I GAVE YOU THE LINK TO you would not only see this is NAI for moz, but that I ALSO DEFENDED GAMMA IN THAT GAME, and pretty much in the same way.

Gamma wasn't my Scum buddy (nor was he my Mason buddy) in that game, YOU were not my Scum buddy when I defended you using meta, and I'm neither Scum with moz nor Jay in this game. (And you REALLY need to work on your paranoia)

@Everyone else: This spoiler is STRICTLY for momo. Don't open it if you only want to scum hunt in this game.

[Almost50]

sheep me

On such a shitty case?? WHY BOT??

VOTE: Beefster

[Almost50]

*BOT=NOT

[Almost50]

Okay, Math, you generally have good sense, but you're going to need to explain that "readslists are anti-town" to me.

Me too, actually. Because Masons/Monks are not even guaranteed to be Town, so neither pair should automatically assume they're both Town.

[Almost50]

Archwing:

God! Beef is so scummy I can't even. Let me vote Assemble.

Obviously, this looks scummy AS HELL on level surface, but I don't think a Scum buddy would do this at this point. If Beef is lynched and flips Scum; Arch would be the default lynch for many.

I'd suspect Kotoko more though if Beef flips Scum. Her vote on Assemble is more subtle than Arch's and both serve to derail the Beef wagon smh. (Not totally excluding Arch, but just saying it's unlikely).

The other scum pair appear to be Jay+Raya (not too confident there, but it looks promising). I thought Jay may have been Scum with Beef, but if so then a distancing attempt went out of proportion and Jay got stuck on the wagon.

So, I'm going into the night with Jay/Ray as one scum team and Beef/Kotoko as the other team (which is obviously bollocks if Beef is lynched and flips Town)

[Almost50]

Anyone can ISO Jay/Ray simultaneously to see how it's not so far fetched to put the two in the same basket. Raya only has posted thrice after all, so it's not hard to see what I see.

[Almost50]

Archwing: God! Beef is so scummy I can't even. Let me vote Assemble.

Great misrep! Did you also notice the part where I said Beef's wagon was shit, and I don't actually think he's scum?

I did. Now did you notice where I said YOU were scumy but I don't think you're Scum? (That would've been a better response if you really wanted to make me look bad)

[Almost50]

UNVOTE:

Almost and Dave just made me feel uneasy about this shit now. Appearantly I have two separate scum partners in their mind. I'm going to look at some other options.

Who did dave associate you with? I must've missed it.

And how does me accusing you of being Scum with Ray make you feel uneasy about your vote on Beef?????

[Almost50]

Case for Jay/Ray Scum team:

Let's all introduce ourselves before we go into a voting frenzy and try to murder each other.

Who says we can't do both? I'm Raya36 or Ray and I'm going to vote Talon because I can.

This may be absolutely nothing on it's own, and especially so when I had responded to Jay with "I'll let my deeds speak for me". This only caught my attention because of the following two posts by Ray.

Exam week prodge

Welp, that's one non-poster accounted for. Now for the other ones!

Again, this may not be obvious (why is Jay so anxious to rule out Ray as a lurker?).

To make my point clear, please compare to:

reading up

*Insert the sound of a rabbit* (i.e. not a mention of Dunn)

Then we have the post Mathdino quoted:

Jay's play was confusing me so I did a quick meta dive. Their play seems to be closest to the town play I saw in a few of their games. They seem a lot more relaxed as town whereas as scum they seem to be a little more tryhardy and not as relaxed and fluffy. I'll give a slight town lean but I'm still going to keep an eye on them since I find their play really hard to read.

Why meta dive Jay and not momo? Why state an unexplained Scumlean on Beef??
And Dino thought Ray was making a case on Elsa, when -in fact- he was clearing the lad ("Their play seems to be closest to the

town play

I saw in a few of their games", "as scum they seem to be a little more tryhardy and not as relaxed and fluffy", "I'll give a slight

town lean

"

So, I first noticed Raya's 3rd post that seemed to be clearing Jay through meta, but ALSO SRing Beef w/o giving any reason, and not caring to metadive momo.

ONLY THEN did I remember Jay's comment on Ray's prodge and went back to see what he had to say about other prodges, and when I found he had not commented on Dunn's in particular I ISO'd the two of them simultaneously and saw the RVS thing too. All 3 Ray posts are connected to Jay one way or another.

Maybe I'm being a momo myself (i.e. overly paranoid. NOT meant to be an offense to momo in any way, shape or form), but that's how I think and that's where I got.

[Almost50]

@momo: I wanted to vote Jay earlier, but I didn't want to sabotage -what seems to be- a good wagon on Beef either. Beef never got to say anything when he was put @ L-1 and seemed so resigned to the idea he was being lynched. You don't go that silent when you're being seriously wagoned if you're Town. You -at least- give a readlist and try to analyze the wagon on you (i.e. leave the Town some legacy to inspect after you flip green).

I have to admit I first joined the wagon on Beef for lolz, as he was absolutely null to me (as I said, he only had one of his first 5 posts with any game related content, and it was some piggytailing), but I've grown more suspicious of him due to his reaction (or rather lack thereof) to his own wagon.

Here's where I stand right now:

mozamis ---------- Nothing new. Nothing out of the ordinary. Very likely Town.
Dunnstral --------- How am I supposed to get a read here? BIG Null.
Kotoko Utsugi --- Not voting Beef triggered my scumdar. Scum lean.
Mathdino --------- Same strong play that WILL get him NK'd early (You don't play like that in a multi-ball game if you're Scum). Definitely Town.
Beefster ----------- Not even defending himself or making arguments for a counter wagon. In short, not Scum hunting and not self-verifying. Likely Scum.
JaydragonKing – The jump off the Beef wagon made me even more suspicious of him. I said he's unlikely to be Scum WITH Beef unless he was caught in a bad distancing maneuver and the first thing he does is take this very opportunity to jump off the wagon. Independently suspicious and COULD be Scum with Beef or Raya.
davesaz ---------- I've seen Scum!dave and I've seen Town!dave, and this looks very much like his Town play.
momo ------------ Same hyperactive crazy momo. Town.
talon152 --------- talon is competing with Dunn for the "nulliest lurker award" of the game. BIG Null.
Raya36 ---------- The associatives I pointed out with Jay make me feel uneasy. Scum lean.
Assemblerotws – Still have nothing much to go by on this guy. Null.
Archwing -------- Everytime he posts he gives me the impression he sincerely believes in what he says (i.e. This is not a Scum plot). Town lean.

[Almost50]

SHIT! I was late, and it had already started.

@momo/Jay: COOL OFF.. both of you. And get Beef back @ L-1

[Almost50]

momo is the KING of Town paranoia! The guy probably checks his own role pm every 30 minutes to double check his own alignment!!!

[Almost50]

a50 of judgy jokes

Here's a "judgy joke" for you:

At the height of a political corruption trial, the prosecuting attorney attacked a witness. "Isn't it true," he bellowed, "that you accepted five thousand dollars to compromise this case?"
The witness stared out the window as though he hadn't hear the question.

"Isn't it true that you accepted five thousand dollars to compromise this case?" the lawyer repeated.
The witness still did not respond.

Finally, the judge leaned over and said, "Sir, please answer the question."
"Oh," the startled witness said, "I thought he was talking to you."

[Almost50]

Once again: Being a Mson/Monk doesn't make you any less Scummy. It doesn't even affect the probability of you having rolled Scum in the first place because Masons/Monks get rolled AFTER alignments have been assigned and BASED on them, not vice-versa.

If we lynch a Scum Mason/Monk it automatically makes the other one conf!Town (Mafia can't be Masons and cannot both be Monks. WWs can't be Monks and cannot both be Masons. There's 0-1 Mafia in the Monks and 0-1 WW in the Masons and the probability of either is exactly 2/11 =18.18%).

[Almost50]

But then you leave his potential partner hanging. Even if he roled scum and Monk/Mason, he'll not only draw the nightkill to him, but also have given his Monk/Mason partner some potential information in finding both the other scum team AND his own partner.

We are NOT hanging Monk/Mason day one.

I'm not sure I understand how this works. I thought the mod rolled the alignments, sent us the preliminary PMs and opened the chat PTs for Scum teams. Then he rolled the Mason/Monk thing and LOCKED the Scum PTs. For all I know Scum partners may not even know if their p rolled Mason/Monk still (unless they had agreed on a signal pre-game, like "I'll vote my Mason/Monk in RVS" or something like that).

On the other hand, if we do let them live due to the claim they are likely to be shot by the opposing team anyway. I mean, regardless of the player's true alignment, Mafia would still want to shoot Masons and WWs would want to shoot Monks, so that's a valid point for letting them live.

So, whatever. If Beef claims Monk/Mason he's dead at night, so I'll unvote if that' the case.

[Almost50]

Mod did confirm they talked PRE-GAME. That's the time between the alignment PMs and the ROLE PMs. Once the ROLES have been decided though the PTs should have been locked. BUT.. we can always ask. Right?

@mod: Could you please elaborate on this? Did you lock the Scum PTs before or after having sent out the Mason/Monk PMs? Thanks in advance.

[Almost50]

ROTFL!

I "almost" fell for your VT claim!

GOOD JOB, TOWN!

[Almost50]

Other WW is in Kotoko Utsugi/Archwing/JaydragonKing (the wagon derailers). The other two are likely Town though (Mafia have no reason to derail a wagon not on them)

[Almost50]

One Mafioso in Assemble/Dunn, the other is on the Beef Wagon

[Almost50]

That's probably Raya or talon

[Almost50]

So, there goes my Jay/Ray connection down the drain. Jay can be a WW but not Mafia, while Ray could be Mafia but not a WW.

[Almost50]

We have a WEREWOLF FLIP (errr.. confession), so YEAS.. I do have something to say in light of that and I could very well be NK'd before I do if I hold my piece.

[Almost50]

Very interesting to say the least. Hard to say whether it's meant to fool us into thinking that further discussion is dangerous for his team, if it's actually true that it's dangerous.

I don't really care, but I think he genuinely believes it could be dangerous. The way he played the whole game doesn't inspire me to think he only thought of trying to deceive us upon his lynch.

Anyway, 100% on D1, and 25% of overall job is done. I hope Dino comes on line before the thread is locked to give us some insight and then when we both are shot tonight you guys can build on it.

[Almost50]

Possible that his partner pissed him off with a hard bus. Contrary to popular belief that is not impossible in a 2 person scumteam especially if the partner is widely townread.

You're jus trying to find a way to SR Dino, aren't you?

I can see this as an attempt to keep him alive, but this is MB, so if he is suspected to be a WW he is still going to get shot (but maybe not tonight because the Mafia need the extra kill, so good job, dave)

[Almost50]

It's always dangerous to be overly TR'd unless you're a PGO in a setup that has no Doc/JK/Watcher

[Almost50]

@Dino: I never said BOTH were on it. I actually said one Mafia on and off the Beef wagon, but the WW was definitely off, so lynching off the wagon has a higher probability of landing on Scum. (actually DOUBLE the chance, as it's 2 in 6 vs 1 in 6)

[Almost50]

There were numerous times (most notably when Jay left the wagon and then momo did) that either me or Dino could've easily switched off Beef. If I was a spectator I'd definitely rule Almos50 & Mathdino form being Werewolves (either or both could still be Mafia though).

[Almost50]

*Unless one or both are also Masons, in which case they're both confirmed Townies and Scum should be shooting them both.

[Almost50]

... So your basically asking the remaining Werewolf to shoot either of you then.

Good perception!

[Almost50]

You sir, have bigger balls then most.

OR ... *REALLY sly grin*

You could say I'm being a pain to EVERYONE, Town and scum alike!

Am I a Town Mason actually trying to dodge a bullet by being too bold and upfront?
Am I a Goon (Monk or not. It doesn't matter) who's trying to dissuade the WW from shooting them by offering themself as the target?
Am I the remaining WW (Mason or not. Doesn't matter either) who has just pulled that stunt on his p and is doubling down on it too?
Or am I a VT who's WIFOMing it all to actually get shot instead of the Masons/Monks?

Take your pick

[Almost50]

it does benefit werewolves to keep the masons alive

Don't tempt me! Bewaha.. bwahahahahahahaha *Real Evil Laughter Echoes till fade*

[Almost50]

almost and dave =mafia
matdino anhd beef ==wolves?

Oh, shit! You nailed me... and my partner too.

Hey, dave! Let's shoot moz tonight and WIFOM it.

[Almost50]

Every previous Masons and Monks game was ruined by too much day.

Not when >I< am a Mason, bro.

[Almost50]

Dino's official song

[Almost50]

Mod obviously rolled Maf/WW himself. Why would he extend the twilight phase otherwise?

[Almost50]

Congratulations, Jay. Well played, my friend.

@Dino: I said Jay was Beef's p when he jumped off the wagon precisely after I said a distancing maneuver went bad and someone got stuck. Do Town EVER listen to the dead?? Nice effort though. If I ever run an invitational game I know whom to invite to make sure I'm having fun watching!!

[Almost50]

@Mod: And I enjoyed eating a bullet on N1 (which is becoming a fad of late. I think I should do something about it)

Thanks for modding

@Jay: You should also be thanking the Mafia for shooting me, because I would have lynched you over either of them.

[Almost50]

Yeah, I saw Almost. You read my PTs too? The dead chat was fun.

I did. And I can't wait for you to start modding so I could play merely for the flavour.

[Almost50]

Just shoot me a PM when it's on signups, and if I'm available I'll play. If not, I'll spectate.

[Almost50]

Maybe in a month I will apply for modding a game. Right now I'm too busy to take the modding responsibility.

Any particular setup you'd be interested in?