Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[CultOfAthena]

So I think everyone has confirmed, when the scumteam picks the power roles the game will start (or when the deadline is up).

VOTE: EP

VOTE: PenguinPower

[CultOfAthena]

While I don't support your vote, I fully support what you have created.

Hm?

....sorry, is Thor's argument 'pp was online when the thread started = scum?'.

Tbf, pp's defense against this not being 'email alerts for pms' is also pretty weak.

I assume im being trolled with money's response to me.

What's weak about PP's explanation being mod duties, to you? Like, if the actual explanation

isn't

email alerts, would you expect PP to make that defense?

Hey all.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I have a couple of town leans already I think

VOTE: Maxous
This looks like a blatant attempt to look like you're scum hunting without actually doing anything.

A blatant attempt? That's a pretty serious accusation for a passing comment. What's blatantly fraudulent about that?

---

The only person I've played with here before is mozamis, who so far seems fairly similar to our previous game.

I like how Thor focused on, or rather engaged with multiple people and dislike how PP primarily focused just on Thor.

If moneybags is scum, I doubt PP is.

I don't really see much that's scummy about Maxous. It's a weak read but from his first post I'd be inclined to say he's more likely town. It shows more concern for sorting people than for fitting in.

[CultOfAthena]

These posts look like newbscum, but mozamis is obviously no newb.

I'll have to think more about this.

I could see how you would see scum there, but what's newb about those posts?

I like how Thor focused on, or rather engaged with multiple people and dislike how PP primarily focused just on Thor.

Noted. In the future, I won't focus on the aggressive guy pushing me. Oh...wait...no. That's a bad idea.

That is unambiguously not what I was saying. Thor engaged with other people while engaging with you, while you largely only engaged with Thor.

Next time, maybe in your two posts, you can put a bit more reasoning behind your statements. For example:

If moneybags is scum, I doubt PP is.

Why?

That's entirely fair, so I'll elaborate my inital thoughts a bit. I don't think moneybags is the first one to soft defend you there if you're both scum. I think scum try very hard in the very early game to distance from each other, so his seemingly casual response in 17 and followup in 38 indicate to me that, if he were scum, he's not defending his scumbuddy there. Perhaps an errant conclusion, but part of the reason I didn't elaborate in the first place is that it's just something I'm filing away in the back of my mind to come back to later.

[CultOfAthena]

I could see how you would see scum there, but what's newb about those posts?

It almost seems too obvious to be an actual scumtell because it bears resemblance to the kind of opening post I'd see from newbscum. I'm not really sure how to make sense of it. I'm probably reading into it too much and it might just be playstyle.

Unless I'm missing something, you didn't actually explain what about them makes them "newb", specifically. Or what makes them scum, for that matter.

I just don't get the idea behind telling him 'yo, stop doing A and I'll read you townish'.

The general idea is that calling something out makes someone less likely to do it. Even if penguin is scum, they've now lost a tool to bog the thread down with bullshit.

There's also the point that I never said anything about townreading penguin. Ever.

Hm, these two posts don't make sense going together to me. The only reason I can see that you would want someone to stop doing a scumtell would be if you strongly townread them (in spite of that scumtell) and want other people to do the same. The only reason as town, that is. Help me understand this – if you don't townread Penguin, why give him advice on what would make him a townread to you?

max I feel i have explained? his weird town read early post, and then later saying he wouldn't clarify bc he didn't wanna get into q and a about it? hiding information isn't helping town.

This seems like a weak read to me – could you elaborate on it? I have something to say but I'd like to hear more from you on this before I say anything.

---

Retracting what I said earlier about mozamis – he's being more "in the background" than I remember.

I'm not sure how meaningful the lack of a wagon appearing on Bella is – it seems like many people weren't even around at the time.

Although it all seems genuine enough, I get a bad feeling about Klick's posting and interaction with others, specifically in 159 as one example.

[CultOfAthena]

I like 100 except the assumption that scum would be always distancing in the early game. Why wouldn't scum want to throw a little accusation out which can later be used to say "Look at this, I'm not this guy/gal's partner"? (among other stuff of course)

That's definitely something scum go for often, but I believe that tends to happen later in the game, when scum are more confident in their position to start to distance and play for the long game. The reason I pointed it out as an early read in specific is because, coming right out of rvs, tying yourself to your scumbuddy like that could be something that lasts for the rest of the game (and a short game that would be). It's also something unlikely to be WIFOM-ed, because I don't think a lot of people look at very early game interactions like that.

---

I'm not a fan of Beefster's response to my whole line of questioning with regard to his mozamis read. What I gathered from it is that the whole range of posts from 87 to 91 are largely superficial. Beef's explanation as for his interpretion of mozamis' three posts being "newbscum" seems to only apply to one of mozamis' posts, and despite him saying that it's something he'd have to think more on, it seems more like a point that he was quite happy to drop were it not for answering my questions rather than something that he's come to an actual conclusion on.

---

I'm also wary of the idea that most of the more recently active players are town, and this goes along with what I said earlier about getting a bad feeling from Klick's posts. Klick seems like he's trying to pocket people, or at the very least insert himself into some kind of townblock. Look at this whole interaction:

Spoiler:

...I have the dumbest gut read on texcat.

Which way is the gut read on texcat, and what posts does it come from? Because I have the same thing.

I mean there's only two of them and one is generic af so....

and it's town.

Yeah, I had a weird gut townread on texcat as well reading earlier. Something about the post he made on page 3 seemed like... minimal content, but in a genuine way? idk.

Perhaps this is paranoia, but it seems to me like Klick is attempting to appeal to Bella by making it seem like they share a similar thought process (exactly how scum pocketed me in one of my previous games). In 136, despite not knowing what Bella's read on tex is or where it comes from, he says that he has the same thing. If he actually originally shared Bella's exact same gutread, I would have expected him to just say it and then ask if Bella shared the same thing, rather than asking what Bella's read was first before sharing his own.



Also, @Flubber and @Bella, please respond to the questions in 163.

[CultOfAthena]

Hm, I feel like my posts are getting ignored here. I also didn't get really get any responses that I'm satisfied with from my questions. Is it my posting style?

[CultOfAthena]

I'm retracting my retraction on my mozamis read, which is to say that I'm fairly confident that he's town and is now posting exactly how I remember him to post from our last game together.

[CultOfAthena]

Pfft. I had my reasons. I just didn't feel like expressing them at the time. In my big reads post, I had her as null. (she was initially town before I posted my reads) I described her as "good questions. not much else" and after a couple more of her posts, it just solidified that her posts have been methodical and perhaps a little deceptive or misdirecting. I don't know if I can point to any particular post or line.

I haven't really been paying super close attention. I was juggling 2 other games with AGDQ.

It seems to me like you're scumreading me for my playstyle or the way that I talk moreso than any actual in-game reason. When you say that you haven't been paying super close attention, what is that meant to tell us? Is that some comment with regard to the level of confidence in your scumread on me, or what? It seems to me like you're "hedging" a read on me – trying to test the waters to see how people react more than having something to actually go on. I get the same feeling from you moving your vote off of me right after initially voting, which I wouldn't expect someone with genuine convictions or some kind of actual lead to do.

[CultOfAthena]

Texcat has done nothing to make me remember that he is in this game.

[CultOfAthena]

Go into detail on that please? I'm very curious where you're getting a scumread on me from Bella.

Why did you completely ignore everything I said in 186 to ask Bella about why she agreed with me? Am I a leper or something?

[CultOfAthena]

I eagerly await PenguinPower's re-entrance to the thread.

[CultOfAthena]

Texcat has done nothing to make me remember that he is in this game.

Care to have actual reads?

I feel like most of your opinions/reads have been sheeped and you're just pointing things out and not making conclusions on them. It's like you're deliberately remaining neutral to keep your options open.

Which of my opinions have been sheeped? If anything, other people have been sheeping me this game on things I've pointed out. Also, again, a playstyle point rather than an alignment point – anyone actually reading my posts can tell that I have actual reads.

Go into detail on that please? I'm very curious where you're getting a scumread on me from Bella.

Why did you completely ignore everything I said in 186 to ask Bella about why she agreed with me? Am I a leper or something?

You gave reasons for your suspicion. Bella didn't. I also have a lot of experience with Bella as a person and didn't expect her to be scumreading me at this stage.

Are you planning on responding to those reasons that I gave?

[CultOfAthena]

Pfft. A call for details. Maybe I'll rustle some together. If I feel like it. I don't think I feel like it.

Hiding your reads in the details of your posts is a cop out. If I have to read your posts in detail to understand your reads, that means there is more room for interpretation, meaning you can retroactively make them mean whatever you want when it is convenient. That, and not all of us have the kind of time or attention span to catch every detail or the memory to remember them all. (but the latter is a minor point)

For starters, I never said they were "in the details" of my posts – I said that anyone

just reading

what I'm saying can obviously see that I have reads.
Next, are you making the point that I don't have reads, or are you making the point that my reads are too hard to discern?
If it's the first point then the fact that you apparently don't have the attention span to read posts with (on average) 300 words or less is irrelevant to whether or not those posts actually have reads in them.
If it's the second point, that's your problem and not mine – like I said, there's really not a lot of ambiguity as to what I'm saying.

@COA/follow-up: I don't have any examples of you sheeping reads because you don't have any actual reads. It's mostly stuff like "I see what you're saying about player X" and "I don't like X from Y" (which is usually after other players have said basically the same thing), but none of this is concrete opinion of "I think X is scum/town"

VOTE: CultOfAthena

This is literally just flat-out wrong. Completely, utterly,

verifiably

wrong. It seems like what I was saying earlier about your reading of the thread being superficial was right on the mark.

[CultOfAthena]

@Cult - please state your current reads.

Mozamis is fairly obviously town to me this game. Having played with him before and done a slight review of his meta, I don't believe he could replicate his posting style the way he has this game if he were scum. Very little could be done to change my mind on this.

Other people seem to be hesitant to call you town based on meta. You have a penchant for getting into extended arguments which I'm not a fan of, but it's matched with scumhunting enough that I'm comfortable calling you town.

I find the way Maxous posts to be hard to read, but from the poor wagon on him and his seemingly nonchalant response to being one of the earliest wagons, he seems like town.

If I were to be ordering this list from towniest to scummiest, the people who I'm not mentioning would take up this slot. I'm not a fan of readslists in the first place and nothing particularly original or insightful comes to mind about them if they weren't mentioned, so I'm not going to force myself to write something.

Texcat hasn't really done anything. I have a poor history with defending lurkers who end up flipping scum so I'd be more willing to lynch him than typically.

Along with what I've mentioned previously, I hate the fact that Klick seems to be deliberately ignoring what I've said about him, both on a "hate" meaning scummy and "hate" meaning personal dislike level. Which reminds me:

@Klick

— 299

Penguin's slot seems more likely scum than not, and I'm slightly annoyed at the replace out given that the replacement likely won't be in the same state of mind as Penguin was. I've already mentioned this, but I think the way in which he interacted with the wagon on him was scummy. He seemed content to treat the game as a debate rather than as a game of mafia, and his response to my pointing that out was an utter misrepresentation. I don't believe the replace-out itself is necessarily AI, however.

I think Beefster is scum. His original vote on me only came after I called him out for his questioning being superficial, and since then it seems like he's had to come up with reasons to keep justifying his vote on me. Look at his response to mozamis:

Pfft. I had my reasons.

I just didn't feel like expressing them at the time

. In my big reads post, I had her as null. (she was initially town before I posted my reads) I described her as "good questions. not much else" and

after a couple more of her posts

, it just solidified that her posts have been methodical and perhaps a little deceptive or misdirecting. I don't know if I can point to any particular post or line.

I haven't really been paying super close attention. I was juggling 2 other games with AGDQ.

I've highlighted what likely isn't true. First, the idea that Beefster had a slight scumlean on me that he "just didn't feel like mentioning" is doubtful, not just on face value but also on the fact that his reads list explicitly had a section for "scumleans" and one of them was explitly marked "slight" – if I was one of those slight scumleans before, why didn't he mention me there? Next, he says that "a couple more of my posts" solidified his scumlean on me, despite the fact that I only made one post inbetween his readslist and his vote.

Another thing I'd like to note is that I think I was right on the mark on Beefster "hedging" his read on me, given that he only resumed his push after

multiple

people declared that they didn't want a beefster wagon in response to his vote on me.

[CultOfAthena]

Hm, I feel like my posts are getting ignored here. I also didn't get really get any responses that I'm satisfied with from my questions. Is it my posting style?

I feel like this question comes from scum a lot under pressure. Responds to a single one-off vote from Beefster with a flurry of posts, questions about why she's being ignored, classic "it's not me, it's my playstyle" line... idk, seems like a disproportionate reaction.

VOTE: CultOfAthena

Of the "flurry of posts" that you're describing, only one was directed towards Beefster. I split up what I would normally make as one post into multiple to see if it would get people to read what I was saying more. You're interpreting all of the posts there as a reaction to Beefster, but that isn't the case.

By the way, why were you "not opposed to my wagon" in 252, made before the post you quoted?

Definitely Bella is a good vote. Throws out opinions without thought put behind them, weak attempts to interact with key points in the game in the early stages. It sounds like a bit of a dumb reason, but it's plausible with this kind of dense game, where I think scum can potentially find it really hard to work themselves up to being a key player when people are already engaging with each other at this level. (Haha I know, look at me with my 4 posts.)

But also why Athena, if scum, might find herself particularly frustrated when no one engages with her.

If I were scum, why would I feel the need to insert myself as a "key player" when most people seemed content to just write me off as town and ignore the rest of my posts?

Moneybags: i do think that Athena felt pressured by Beefster’s vote. I dont think town usually goes into an immediate throwing shade/discredit from what is a claimed gut read (268)

Where did I discredit Beefster? If by "discredit" you mean "point out how someone is wrong", then first of all those two things are very connotatively different and you'll have to explain why you chose the first phrase over the second, and second – yeah I would be "discrediting" him if that's what you mean.

That's the point though. She's acting as if she is under pressure despite only having one (rather unthreatening) vote on her.

How was I acting as if I was under pressure?

[CultOfAthena]

Thor - I just don't like her tone and her posts don't feel game solve-y. They mostly feel like deflections of darts thrown against her and not really "hey: this is mafia because..."

Also i was just in a mini with her and srd her for the same thing. However there was a massive wave of resistance and i couldn't get her lynch into motion. Everyone tred her. Everyone was wrong but me.

So I'm willing to hear out a town case on her, but "x's reaction to y" doesn't really sell me.

Posting here before catching up as people seem to have questions for me.

[CultOfAthena]

I looked over Bellaphant's ISO and realized that her first 10 posts were pretty bad. RadiantCowbells's entrance looks a bit more buddy-buddy and lighthearted than I would expect. I can see where people are coming from with the Bellaphant/RC wagon.

Texcat hasn't really done anything. I have a poor history with defending lurkers who end up flipping scum so I'd be more willing to lynch him than typically.

Going for lynch bait?

I'm not just going to cherry pick though.

I've noticed COA has defended herself mostly with deflecting questions.

I can't seem to shake this gut read and I could see a possible COA/Bellaphant/??? scumteam.

As for that connection specifically, I just noticed Bella's early reads were in favor of COA. It's a really weak connection, I know. Probably just confirmation bias rearing it's ugly head at me.

Copying transcend's opinions?

Spoiler:

Lol haha hehe voting the lynchbait

Thor - I just don't like her tone and her posts don't feel game solve-y. They mostly feel like

deflections

of darts thrown against her and not really "hey: this is mafia because..."

Also i was just in a mini with her and srd her for the same thing. However there was a massive wave of resistance and i couldn't get her lynch into motion. Everyone tred her. Everyone was wrong but me.

So I'm willing to hear out a town case on her, but "x's reaction to y" doesn't really sell me.

Also, I'm not sure you actually understand what a deflecting question is. I have been

questioning

the people voting me, yes – there's nothing "deflecting" about it.

Could you do me a favor and point me to this?

I'm not going to quote PenguinPower's entire ISO, but you can quite clearly check for yourself that what I'm saying is true – his entire interaction with Thor he almost singularly responded to Thor, discussing the validity of the argument against him solely without any discussion of what the conversation meant in terms of town and scum. His entire ISO, the only real read seems to be on Maxuous (a weak wagon). People say that my ISO is devoid of reads, but even if I don't often explicitly state people as town or scum, you could still get a sense of where my reads are just by reading what I'm saying. The same isn't true of PP's ISO.

I split up what I would normally make as one post into multiple to see if it would get people to read what I was saying more. You're interpreting all of the posts there as a reaction to Beefster, but that isn't the case.

That may definitely be true, but my point is that I think that your reaction in general is something I think is a plausibly common reaction from scum in your situation.

This is too vague of a response to be meaningful. What are you referring to as my "reaction" in that situation?

CoA why have you vanished from this game since I showed up while posting elsewhere?

I'm just going to call out the scumteam right now: RC/mozamis/COA

COA's silence at this point in the game is telling.

I'll admit to getting sidetracked on my posting yesterday, but I check this game and respond to things at largely the same time every day.

---

Moving my vote off of Transcend – that situation will resolve itself come tomorrow, and was mainly still there for when PP came back to the thread.
VOTE: Beefster (L-2)

RC, could you explain where your locktown on me comes from?

I'm still convinced mozamis is town. Yes, he's all over the place – that's just how his towngame.

[CultOfAthena]

Do you think that I shouldn't townread you?

No, I'm just wondering where the strength of the read comes from – it's a lot more confident of a read than most other people in the game seem to have and you entered the thread with it.

[CultOfAthena]

I've hardclaimed PR, my slot is going to be self resolving whether there's a jailkeeper or not and I don't particularly feel like getting into details about how I read you because I don't think it's universally applicable enough to help other people read you and I would like to continue to be able to read you correctly in the future. I understand that makes it hard to read me, but again I don't think that reading me should be your top priority right now.

I recognize the point about the tracker self-resolving – the question mostly came from when you first replaced in.

[CultOfAthena]

Thoughts on moneybags? Haven't really known how to place him this whole game.

[CultOfAthena]

Reading through now.

I'm VT.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm not voting mozamis. Unless he has

widly

improved his scumgame as of recent, he's almost certainly town here. I've seen mozamis as scum before, and he simply

cannot

replicate his posting style as town.

Is there some reason we've all eliminated Beefster as a lynch today? Nothing about his reaction has changed my mind, and that's still where I'd like to lynch today. Absent the votes required I would switch to EP, but I'm still far more confident in scum Beefster.

[CultOfAthena]

Anyone else find it interesting that Transcend was shot first over RC? Suggests that scum were actually in the pool of people he considered shooting.

VOTE: Klick

Voting here for now, doing some reviewing.

[CultOfAthena]

Transcend makes much more sense as a kill than RC because Transcend's PR is much more powerful than RC's, and we now have an even number of players which is worse than odd.

Anyone in a scum slot would be able to see this. You don't appear to have seen it at all, further cementing my townread on you.

Scum only have reason to fear Transcend's PR if he's scumreading them – otherwise, more dead townies is a benefit to scum, especially when transcend makes a shot like moneybags. This feels like a preemptive defense of suspicion on yourself from Transcend dying before RC.

Also, I'm pretty sure we would still be at an even number of players today if scum killed RC over Transcend.

UNVOTE:

#1194 looks super town to me tbh. That is probably one of the most (surprisingly) genuine out-of-game defenses I have ever seen. Maybe my scumdar is just broken. I dunno. It seemed to be malfunctioning big time on HWS.

You realize that whatever real-life situation is leading to EP's lack of activity (which I fully believe him on) has nothing to do with his alignment, right? I think that him saying he doesn't think people have valid justifications for scumreading him conflicts pretty heavily with him expecting to get lynched such that one of the two opinions must have been faked.

i think i'm really warming up to the possibility of Athena!scum.
particularly as herself and HWS barely talked about each-other at all yesterday

I'll admit that he slipped under my radar, but looking from his ISO at me there's definitely something there – how closely did you look at his ISO and what did you get out of it?

Also @Maxous, did you come to a conclusion at all there on EP? You quoted all of EP's posts and briefly described them, but you didn't really talk

about

them.
Also, definitely agreeing with Thor on 1241 being weak. "It's possible" is not a response to "why do you think this happened".

[CultOfAthena]

Transcend doesn't get his

second

shot. Which changes everything. That's why the Vig was made two-shot in this setup, and why vigs are numbered evenly in general. Eventually we could end up in MyLo, where optimal play is to no-lynch. Killing Transcend essentially means town lost a town-controlled kill.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here – if scum weren't scared of Transcend's shot, the fact that it's town-controlled shouldn't make any difference.

I'll admit that he slipped under my radar, but looking from his ISO at me there's definitely something there – how closely did you look at his ISO and what did you get out of it?

i had a brief look over his ISO. It's hard to get connections out of it as he was purposely being vague and fence sitting about most players.

But you made the point that it specifically incriminates me – I'm asking what you saw there that would point to me over anyone else, because I looked back through it myself, and even if I am coming at it from my own biased point of view, I'm having a hard time believing that this is a genuine point that you're making.

god that catch up post from Cult was empty of reads

.
Thinking Thor cult scum team?
Tex and Ep are lynch bait, and Beef may spur scum onto thinking they can get me. Although Cult is gonna have a hard time backtracking form her "Moz definitely town" read from Day 1.

Haven't we already gone over this? Because I'm getting pretty tired of repeating myself. Also – not backtracking anything and I don't intend to, as much as you sometimes make me wish I could.

I don't know how much I read this as scum but this is basically "I made up a reason to throw shade at EP because I felt it pertinent to push there, but when queried about it, had nothing to back it up so backpedaled"
Maxous is definitely playing like lethargic/carefree town or doing a good job of emulating it so I'm conflicted

Are you saying that you think that town makes up reasons to throw shade and then backpedals when pushed? Because saying this and then following it up with a townread on Max makes it seem like you're not actually trying to sort him to me.

Could you talk more about not thinking that people have valid reasons to scumread you? Also: what was the deal with your RC scumread?

[CultOfAthena]

@ Cult - join me on Thor?

I don't really understand your case against Thor.

Firstly: maybe I'm wrong with that interpretation, and although that's scummy behavior there are reasons I think he could be town. So I've got conflicting evidence. And I made it pretty clear that without that conflicting interpretation giving me pause on this, Maxous basically becomes my top scumread.

But you never gave the "conflicting" part of that interpretation – you never gave any reasons that you townread him. I don't see why, from your perspective, your Max townread exists at all, and combined with the fact that you were voting him just yesterday and never gave any indication of rethinking that read, I'm pretty sure you're faking your reads.

Also: what was the deal with your RC scumread?

As I thought about it more, I
- became more and more convinced that the way RC rapidly flipped on me was nonsensical and he kept becoming more and more confident that I was scum until he was eventually just working with a gameview that assumed that I was and I didn't buy whatever he looked at and saw.
- considered that the spat with Transcend came from scum motivation.

either way it's moot now so shrug

The question I was really trying to ask was "did you forget about the tracker claim or what?"

VOTE: Errantparabola

CoA what do you think about Thor and Texcat?

I'm fine calling Thor town – he's noticed a lot of the same things I have and made points I planned to make before I could make them. Less confident in texcat being town – the whole "looking for people off the wagon" and related conversation seems like busywork / looking useful moreso than actually doing anything useful.

[CultOfAthena]

Sorry, not usually this inactive. Starting my catchup now.

[CultOfAthena]

we shouldnt vpte Ep his las tpost was very town - actually gave out...you know..reads.
he is lynch bait.
@ COA - well, you thought i was "erratic" day 1, and yet i was right about Hewho. Maybe just take a leap and go with it.
And if you need "proof before belief", thor is a very active player who hasnt doen any scum hunting all game.
You understand that, yeah?

I hope you understand that when I said you were "a little all over the place", it wasn't any sort of insult – it was just a comment on your typing style.

No one with a big voice has a townread on me. I'm inevitably lynched before endgame, even if there's a texcat scumflip.

If you think we're the scumteam though, I'll happily go along with half of those lynches.

This doesn't mean that what you're describing is impossible – it just means that, if it was a plan, it isn't working out for you.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm not budging on my moz townread. I'm more confident in moz!town than any other read I have. RC, just for a moment look at this game from the perspecitve of moz being town – what then?

[CultOfAthena]

Klick, why are you unvoting when from your reads / your perspective you should have the game almost entirely PoE'd down?

[CultOfAthena]

I'm not budging on my moz townread. I'm more confident in moz!town than any other read I have. RC, just for a moment look at this game from the perspecitve of moz being town – what then?

Let's make this a thing.

If I'm wrong then next time we're town and disagree on a read I'll vote whoever you want instead.
If I'm right then next time we're town and disagree on a read you vote who I want you to.

Assuming you're talking about future games and not this one, then sure – but it doesn't mean that I'm going to help you lynch him.

[CultOfAthena]

Are you threatening me for not agreeing with you or are you saying it's some kind of associative read? Because if it's the latter, moz is lynched and he flips town, I'd like to hear how that implicates me into getting lynched before endgame. If it's the former, then

[CultOfAthena]

That's fine, then – like I said, I'm confident he flips town here.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm resisting the urge to go through your past confident townreads and point out that most of them have ended up being scum

Just because I've been wrong before doesn't mean that I'm wrong now.

Should I remind you of the last townread we disagreed on?

@Cult - could you describe your town read on moz and/or address my raised issues with moz? Because I'm not seeing him as town at all and am curious what you're seeing.

Mozamis can't post the way that he has this game as scum. If you're familiar with Creature, it's kind of like that.

[CultOfAthena]

It's not hard for Creature to just show up to the thread and post pretty much anything.

[CultOfAthena]

Alright it's hardball time.

CULT OF ATHENA.

If you do not vote Mozamis with me you are going to be downgraded 2 tiers to a level 6 friend.

VOTE: mozamis

[CultOfAthena]

Just kidding.

VOTE: Errantparabola

Yes. In my memory I remembered Transcend and RC both ccing each other, and Transcend going back on it. I think I assumed that both claims were fake.

If you assumed both claims were fake, why did you expect to die night one? Did you expect scum to kill you?

But you never gave the "conflicting" part of that interpretation – you never gave any reasons that you townread him. I don't see why, from your perspective, your Max townread exists at all, and combined with the fact that you were voting him just yesterday and never gave any indication of rethinking that read, I'm pretty sure you're faking your reads.

I mean this is provably untrue.

Maxous is definitely playing like lethargic/carefree town or doing a good job of emulating it so I'm conflicted

The thing is that you haven't said anything about

why

he's carefree town. Even if we were to both agree on him looking carefree, you haven't said anything about why that carefree nature is coming from town rather than from scum. Also, max has been playing in largely the same way today as yesterday, so if you're reading him as town for his playstyle today, why were you voting him yesterday?

[CultOfAthena]

Sorry i really mean to disappear so much.

Looking at the wagons - i'm saying no to a beefster and an absolutely no to Klick

Moz is ehh maybe if there's not much else

Where is your Klick townread coming from?

[CultOfAthena]

Athena, I don't think any of your lines of questioning are salient in the slightest. If it becomes something people in general care about then sure I'll go line for line on my thoughts.

I'm accusing you of lying and making up your reads. What about that doesn't seem "salient" to you?

Okay CoA let's play a game.

Say I would sheep you on any wagon today on the condition that if it flipped town you would powerlynch Mozamis tomorrow.

Who would your lynch be and why?

I'll say this again – just because I'm wrong in one instance doesn't imply that I'm wrong in another.

I'm also not sure why I'm specifically the one you're trying to convince on this, especially when I've already made it clear that I think mozamis is town.

[CultOfAthena]

In a rush, not sure I got to respond to everything I wanted to.

what's the VC?
Also, Athena: clearly the accusation doesn't hold weight with anyone else. Also, my alignment is not the limiting factor for how much effort I put into making solid reads.

Okay, so nobody

else

is listening to me / reading what I'm saying. Is that an excuse to just ignore what I'm saying to you?

Also, with regards to your second sentence – are you admitting that there's nothing to your max read?

He's going out of his way to drag up a confirmed town to make a town case on HWS at a point HWS is not in lynch danger.
Now, *maybe* this is a roundabout way to protect HWS from a Vig.
But I'm not sure I see it.

You should both offer me some feedback on that, *because*;

Can you explain where the "confirmed town" part of this comes in? Because what you just described sounds mostly like a scum strategy to me – a pretty good one, in fact.

[CultOfAthena]

It comes from a lack of a counterclaim.

Okay, reading comprehension failure on my part for that line.

So you're saying that if you were scum, and you had a scumbuddy not in danger of a lynch, you would ask other people to defend him to you while you were bussing him?
Because that sounds like a defense move, not a bussing move.
To rephrase - that move makes a lot of sense if the goal was to *not* see HWS flipped for your own towncred.
Klick's votes don't support that reality.

While we're at it, who do you see as the most likely scum on the Moz wagon and the HWS wagon - or do you think either/both wagons are totally town driven (and if so, why?)

I disagree – that move has two outcomes: the first is that a conftown builds a town case on your scumbuddy, giving them more town cred. The second is that, if that partner

were

to ever flip, you would look good from it, being able to point back and say that you knew all along. I would say that immediately getting your partner flipped isn't always the end goal of bussing – it's more about getting the nonassociative. Even if the main goal

is

to immediately get the partner flipped, having a town case to dissect seems a lot easier than building your own scum case on someone.

That's not to say that I think Klick went through this entire same thought process – just that I don't understand where your townread there is coming from. I think Klick was the scum on both wagons.

[CultOfAthena]

Sorry to see you go, RC. Apologies if I'm wrong on this.

[CultOfAthena]

for starters what do these two games have in common with regards to aristophanes and chara

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=74699
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73079

you have a player who as scum hides behind the meta shield of being known for being bad as scum
they are both objectively scummy in both games: I wanted to lynch Ari right when I replaced in and Chara I had as lockscum in spite of meta

they became unlynchable because the people who knew them refused to take my read seriously because they thought they knew better.

people get better as scum. I agree that mozamis has a shit scum game in the past that doesn't mean he'll have a shit scum game forever.

He has managed to in a significant way match his town tone that he hasn't before but he hasn't matched the playstyle, the stupid pushes the scum motivation none of that is characteristic in his town game.
Most importantly there's a complete absence of reconsideration and thoughtfulness that's present in his town game and he's just alternating derptunnel and loud AtE.

Okay, I'll concede this point. I actually have a unique perspective on that second game there because it was one of the first games I read and, unfamiliar with Aristo's meta, I scumread him just for his posting. I'll take another look at moz, independent of meta, but I wouldn't hold your breath if you're expecting a complete 180 here.

I don't want to be unnecessarily critical of your play CoA but you have a long history of incorrectly townreading people with similar playstyles.
On top of that, I get the impression from both this game and just general past history that, possibly because of Huntress? you have little to no respect for my town play
like you even ignored my advice when we were hydraing and it ended up (possibly! I'm not sure where math would have gone otherwise) costing us the game and you still don't take what I say seriously

This point, however, I will not concede. Not agreeing with you isn't the same as not taking you seriously. Of course I take you seriously and respect your town play – it's just that we disagree. I also disagree that that decision specifically was what cost us the game, but that discussion isn't particularly relevant.

EP is even worse because I don't understand how in hell you would make the decision that you want to go off of your own reads as opposed to sheep me.
I am probably going to get you lynched if I can't lynch Mozamis because it seems so, so uncharacteristic of you to give as few fucks as you do about my reads.
We have a super long history of me saying who the scum are, you fucking off and ignoring me, and me being right and given how our conversations about mafia have gone since then it's kind of flabbergasting that you're ignoring me and the only real answer I can think of is that you're scum right now, so.

When have I ever sheeped

anyone

? I also think you're overstating the degree of similarity between this situation and any previous situations.

If I never play with CoA again I never have to be her vote bitch if I'm wrong.

Bad thought.

[CultOfAthena]

I doubt there's a team without EP on it, but the first one is possible – EP's vote on tex was short lived given his intent to hammer moz and a quick glance through his ISO shows a lot of mentions as a potential wagon or a "could vote there" but never actually any votes.

[CultOfAthena]

If COA is scum, she hasn't bussed, though this sticks out to me as possible buddying/IIOA:

You're saying that I was buddying my scum buddy?

Does that make sense to you?

---

VOTE: Errantparabola

Seems like RC had it right come the end of the day, and this is where I'd like to begin for today. I'll try to make a more detailed case when I get the chance. Sincerely doubt that town loses this one at this point.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm here right now and seeing people vote me as I preview my post. Unvote, please.

[CultOfAthena]

Errant has terrible associatives with texcat and I'm not sure how you all aren't seeing it. I'll go through them.

texcat: That line thing looks like a smart way to format posts. In fact, I’m doing it right now. Thanks texcat. I'll give it a test run, see if I like it.

If you read 178, he gives some kind of read on literally every single other player that he mentions except for texcat, who he simply makes a comment to regarding using lines for formatting. Even further, there were multiple people he didn't mention at all in his readslist, so it's not even as if he was going and commenting on everyone – it seems to me like he felt the need to mention his scumbuddy but didn't have a meaningful comment to make.

That is the only mention of tex for day one.

Flubber:

Your sudden focus on texcat doesn't make sense to me. What about her catchup that you reference in 179 is weird? Is it just lack of content?

Defends tex where HWS was doing the same thing, possibly coordinated in daychat:

Spoiler:

So make a case or something

Hmmmm...

VOTE: Flubbernugget
Telling me to make a case, when you are not. Plus telling us that voting Bella is a town thing to do, when you are not.

QFT.

Flubber, care to explain why both of these points are a thing?

Hm, guess I can see that. It just sounded like you were trying to let texcat make a case while ducking suspicion on your own so to speak.

I still think the Bella wagon is really meh but w/e. As long as it's not lynched without more incriminating stuff towards Bella.

pedit: I see moneybags being a voice of reason but don't see why it's bad. Especially in D1 which can be a chaos of accusations/reads without base and the highest amount of players screaming through each other.

1261 is large to the point where I don't want to quote it but it's basically the classic oblique angle that scum take when talking about a scummy partner, the "willing to vote there but I have other avenues I'd rather pursue", same thing in 1492.

---

RC's gonna hate me if he ends up being right, but I'll go here for now, I think I vastly prefer it.
VOTE: texcat

His vote on tex in 1627 comes at a time when it looked almost certain that moz was going to get lynched and despite EP expressing willingness to vote moz beforehand – that's a play for looking good on VCA and doesn't come from someone who had a real scumread on mozamis.

Around 1700 RC switches off moz and begins considering the possibility of an EP/tex scumteam, and then EP enters the thread with this:

think scum just wins this game. It doesn't seem plausible that all remaining scum is in {Maxous / tex / Klick / moz} just from basic scumteam theory. I'm also really surprised that RC scumreads me, the distance from my scumgame here is extremely easy to identify

And RC notices the exact same thing that I did:

why did you suddenly get super demoralized when I expressed support for the same lynch that you did and stopped voting someone you thought was town?

EP's explanation in 1710 speaks to the

content

of what he was saying, but I don't think he can conceal the emotional reaction contained within 705 initially.

---

It seems like nobody else shares my opinion on this, and I'm not sure why. If it's just for the tex vote yesterday, I think it's very realistic that scum!EP feels like it's necessary to bus tex in the situation that he was in, and the context surrounding his vote makes me think that it's very likely.

[CultOfAthena]

Remember when Texcat and Hewho were the big wagons?
Cult was on the Beef "wagon" which was going nowhere.
Then she sat on EP ALL day yesterday. Never moved her vote. And came in today voting EP again. Shes not gamesolving.
She's scum.

The beef wagon was the largest wagon of day one at one point. I voted Klick initially day two before moving to EP, and just because I never moved my vote doesn't mean that I wasn't gamesolving – see my questioning of max, klick, and my trying to convince RC that you're town.

I feel like you're making the same mistake with regards to me that you did in 702.

[CultOfAthena]

I'm going to walk through a series of questions with you, CoA. Please answer them to the best of your ability.

1) How confident are you that I am 3rd scum?

Reasonably so, and more than the other potential candidates.

By the way, another thought for those of you who think that I'm the last scum: quite clearly I'm comfortable hard defending people I townread, as I did with mozamis. If I were scum with HWS and texcat, why just let both of them get lynched when I could have defended them the same way and not had it be suspicious or uncharacteristic?

[CultOfAthena]

@ Klick - look at how ready Max is to give out his opinions - even to the extent of saying "i was right", which is very town lol
whereas Cult is so vague and theoretical. It's not Max.
cult plays in a similar way to Hewho - quire reasonable, but DOING and even SAYING very little.

Can you point specifically to where you think I'm being vague or theoretical?

and you'll note how Cult is THE ONLY player in the whole game that has always called me town. Does that seem toen to you? Most people find my "erratic" playstyle scummy at some point. She never has, like she, ya know, KNOWS something...lol

Yes, I do know something – what your towngame looks like and what your scumgame looks like. I found your playstyle scummy in the first game we played together, but now I know that that's just how you play as town.

also lol at CUlt for attacking EP for not mentioning Tex day 1 and then attacking EP for voting Tex day 2.
clearly just attacking EP for whatevr he does.

I think there's a bit more nuance to it than that.

yeah, but look at how much more active you are now, now that you are under pressure?
where have you been all game when town needed you? Nowhere, you have done NOTHING to lynch scum.
you never pushed beef, you never pushed klick. only now, under pressure, do present a case on EP.

My activity hasn't changed at all, and even if it

had

– weren't you calling me scum earlier for

not

being active?

Sure, I'll admit that I haven't been a part of either of the scum wagons – does being off in my reads make me scum? I would expect the opposite.

I have indisputably pushed Beefster and Klick this game

and

presented a case against EP before I was under pressure. If you'd like, I can quote these for you.

[CultOfAthena]

Reasonably so, and more than the other potential candidates.

Would you be willing to get lynched today if, hypothetically, it guaranteed my lynch tomorrow?

No, I would never accept my own lynch. There's no reason to.

@CoA - if EP is scum and you and Max are town than it means we got Transcend to 5 votes (RC was on there as well but unvoted shortly before this votecount) with zero scum support for a town wagon.

How likely do you think that is?

How likely is it? Unless you're talking about pure statistical likelihood, is there some specific reason to disbelieve it? All-town wagons happen all the time. My reads independent of the votecount lead me to the conclusion that EP is scum, so I don't see why that conclusion also leading to the conclusion of something being an all-town wagon is cause to reconsider.

[CultOfAthena]

I mean, I'm willing to consider scum!Maxous given that my EP case doesn't appear to be going anywhere. I'm not really confident in it but I don't think town loses this game either way.

[CultOfAthena]

@COA: Is there any reason to be afraid of being lynched as town when we literally have room for 2 mislynches before scum wins?

Let's say you

know

someone is town – a cop innocent, a friendly neighbor, whatever. Would you ever accept a lynch on that person just because it's

unlikely

that town loses?

UNVOTE:
Athena is digging in pretty hard on her EP read. It's her easiest shot at staying engaged and active in a gamestate that is very hostile to her currently. So that is a very plausible floundering scum.

Last question before I vote again, Athena: what do you think the intent behind my line of questioning was?

I honestly have no idea.

@ Cult - your last few posts sum it up: no scum hunitng, you're not trying to get EP lynched (remember him? your supposed "suspect"?). Just defensive survival mode form you.
"Town you" may have made some of those points, but you would have also said "c'mon, lets lynch EP" or something like that.
Cult's scum. Hammer her.

How am I not trying to get EP lynched when I spent a serious chunk of time (moreso than usual) writing up an entire case that nobody has responded to yet? This is the exact same thing that happened early in the game except now instead of me getting ignored and townread it's me getting ignored and lynched. I'd appreciate if you responded to 1830 because I sincerely feel like you're making the same mistakes you made in 702 and this time it's going to get me lynched.

[CultOfAthena]

I would think the question of why scum would avoid the Transcend wagon would at least get you to assess EP's reads in relation to that wagon to discuss why you think he'd avoid it.

I don't think it was a question of reason – I don't think EP was even around for that wagon in the first place.

I mean, I'm willing to consider scum!Maxous given that my EP case doesn't appear to be going anywhere. I'm not really confident in it but I don't think town loses this game either way.

Okay, so why don't you do that?
Let's discuss your EP and Max read right now.
That's what I'm trying to do with you.

Max is a gut townread to me. If he's scum he's been playing a very nonchalant game for having both of his partners lynched one after the other. More than that, he has some comments in his ISO regarding HWS!scum and tex!scum that really don't seem to come from a partner:

Spoiler:

Page 2

- Instantly reminded why i got such an early town-read on Moneybags. Argues with Thor about his pushes on myself and Penguin. this looks even better given Penguin's clear. Dunno why scum!Money would defend the two of us from a town!Thor. no point really.

still kinda icky about this response to the argument from Beefster. *Particularly* if Thor town. Could be stirring the pot on a town-town fight.

Page 3

- you know in retrospect i dunno how well his post sits with me. it ends up being a lot of fence-sitting and not really saying anything

Page 5

- My town-read on Beefster might actually be tested here. I think his push on Flubber here is weak.

It's hard to define it to a particular page but Thor is dogging on both Penguin and Flubber early on here. his arguments are still a bit hard to follow.

Page 6

- I like Kilck's interactions with Bella on this page. It's a minor thing but felt rather fluid and genuine.

Page 7

- HWS's #164 here. Again a lot of words, not saying a whole pile. In the context that he's not as much of a newer player as i thought initially, this doesn't look great, idk.
Beefster's #165 Again seems like a weak read.
Klick's #167 either Klick is obv-town or he's pretty f'n good at scum.
texcat #171 I know she has a low content playstyle but she ignores so much of the game in the post and it doesn't sit well with me.

page 8

Beefster gives a mildly disapointing read-list here
errant also gives a read-list/catch-up there's not much to it either.
slight twitch with texcat's OMGUS accusation towards Flubber. actually texcat's push on flubber isn't great at all.

while i don't think Athena's posts are scummy...she's not quite as town feeling as i initially thought

Page 10

Some of these HWS posts are starting to trigger me I hate looking at meta but i feel like i might have to here.
Texcat ignores a lot of the game again and just tunnels on Flub. meh.

Page 11

- I know Errant is struggling to catch-up but not much in this post to sink into at all. surely there were more things to talk about.

mozamis seems to be giving people town-reads based on activity here. not entirely sure how i feel about that.

Hmm. Thor makes a really good point for Beefster being town missed that first time round.

Page 13

- Bad vote on Athena from Errant. Very nitpicky and i feel disingenuous, quoting her out of context.

Page 16

Klick, what's your opinion on 78 and 123 which seem townish to me?

I'm not really seeing anything alignment-indicative about the two posts? You're going to have to explain what you see to me.

pedit quick reply to Klick: I see Max townhunting and I'm liking the reads he's giving in these posts. It wasn't anything real big, just pinged me as town like.

Highlighting this exchange. maybe HWS really is scum.
such a fluff question.

Page 18

is this really playstyle? nothing else caught Texcat's interest?

Page 19

- Interesting post from beefster defending Transcend considering the circumstance. Transcend seemed like a very plausible lynch there. Town brownie points for beefster

Page 20 & 21

- you know errant is probably just scum. backs down from athena and then just...meh?
considering we know RC and transcend are town i'm not liking HWS' #506 here. Feels like stirring the pot between them. particularly considering how passive HWS tends to be on reads.

-

end of page 25

alright i've done 25 pages. i might do the rest tomorrow, i might not.

Errant and HWS are scum.

Texcat and Athena are fighting it out for the last spot. Maybeish Thor.
g'night

uhh yeah fine.
i do think HWS is likely to be scum.

Official Vote Count 1.9

HeWhoSwims

(4): Transcend, Thor665, RadiantCowbells, mozamis

Beefster

(3): CultOfAthena, Flubbernugget, texcat

texcat

(3): Klick, Moneybags, Beefster

Errantparabola

(1): Maxous

Not Voting

(2): Errantparabola,

HeWhoSwims

I mean

TL on Beefy and he's talking which is good.

SL on Tex who's... not talking.

There could easily be one scum between those and if so I'd say it's tex every time, 90% of the time.

no vote on texcat?

Granted, at the end of day two yesterday he came around to a texcat townread based on the HWS lynch day one – if he's scum, he had a pretty good strategy of having one bus to confirm the other buddy as town.

@COA: Is there any reason to be afraid of being lynched as town when we literally have room for 2 mislynches before scum wins?

Let's say you

know

someone is town – a cop innocent, a friendly neighbor, whatever. Would you ever accept a lynch on that person just because it's

unlikely

that town loses?

I see what you're saying, but it's a lot easier to vet someone else than it is to vet yourself. Sometimes being a team player means letting yourself be mislynched when there isn't pressure to get it right the first time.

How is it being a team player to knowingly harm my team by allowing my own mislynch?

[CultOfAthena]

@Moz

I'd appreciate if you responded to 1830 because I sincerely feel like you're making the same mistakes you made in 702 and this time it's going to get me lynched.

[CultOfAthena]

Personally, I feel like this is reaching. D1 is usually a shot in the dark. There were a lot of other players he didn't really mention on D1. This looks like cherry picking.

I am not faulting him for simply not mentioning texcat enough on day one – I'm saying that the one mention he

had

of texcat was superficial. How is that "cherry picking"?

What kind of scum derails a mislynch to bus? That is the dumbest possible strategy.

You're not getting what I'm saying. EP wasn't "derailing" the texcat wagon to bus – he was hopping off of it to have his vote on a scumbuddy when the day ended (in the moz lynch). Nothing about it is a dumb strategy in the slightest – I'd say it's a fairly good strategy.

I don't see how this scum!EP tex bus makes any sense. It's a dumb move because WIFOM and bussing almost always comes back to bite you in the butt. EP is clearly not this stupid... We could get into WIFOM here, but we have room for 2 mislynches and I'd say EP's third on the chopping block anyway.

More votes on COA.

"Because WIFOM"? I don't think you actually understood what I was saying.

[CultOfAthena]

Argh, submitted before I was finished.

There's nothing reaching about my comment in 1710 and it's consistent with someone who employed the strategy that I'm describing (hopping off of a mislynch to put your vote on a scumbuddy when the day ends) who then had that vote end up being the lynch. Yes, as scum moving the lynch from a mislynch onto a scumbuddy

is

a really bad move – I don't think EP expected tex to get lynched there and that would explain the despondence present when he realized that RC had moved from moz to tex as the lynch.

[CultOfAthena]

EP isn't at all acting like he believes that my lynch ends the game. Compare his last post and vote on me to moz or to Beefster and they way they've gone about this.

The intent behind my line of questions to Athena: as third scum getting lynched ends the game. Third scum would not be willing to get lynched under any circumstance. Town might be willing to get lynched, especially if they thought that it would result in a gamewinning lynch for town next day. I would have actually thought that this line of questioning was obvious enough (RC did something similar to me in Space Invaders I think) and I expected for Athena to say something like "yeah I'd be willing to get lynched but I'd rather just lynch you now first" or something like that. Unsure what to make of her response.

I think I've only ever seen people say that they'd be willing to get shot or to get vigged as scum trying to act nonchalant. The question also feels like a no win situation – say "yes" and people just lynch me. Say "no" and I get called the last scum to concerned about the game ending.

[CultOfAthena]

Note also how none of his questions furthered a scumread on me and he actually found more reasons to

townread

me and yet he still places his vote back there.

[CultOfAthena]

Again, Athena's focus is overly narrow imo.
She focuses on Errant and only focuses on others when directly asked. Same behaviour on Day 2.

I'm okay with this lynch, I think it's the right choice.

Disagree. Today I'm simply stating where my main suspicions lie. Day 2 I undoubtably focused on more people than just EP – you should know this yourself, given my questioning of you.

Two questions naturally seem to stem up from this;

1. How is Max 'nonchalant' and EP is 'not nonchalant'? COuld I get a short list of who isn't being nonchalant and a description of how they're being nonchalant? (this feels like bogus reasoning to me so I want to understand it better or be able to showcase your inability to describe it in order to attack you)

It's just gut for Max, honestly. He's never seemed to express any sort of concern at his own loss or initiative to stop something from happening (namely, if he were scum, both of his partners getting lynched). It's not really something that I consider in my read on anyone else because it really only stands out for Max (although you could call EP's reaction when RC switched to tex an example of being "non-nonchalant").

2. I note you touting a number of examples of Max listing Tex and HWS as scumreads Day 1 as a reason not to scumread him.
I'll note that, despite these reads, he wasn't ever *voting* either of those slots. He was voting EP. How does that affect/not affect your read of him?

That kind of weakens my reasoning on max!town, honestly.

[CultOfAthena]

What kind of scum derails a mislynch to bus? That is the dumbest possible strategy.

You're not getting what I'm saying. EP wasn't "derailing" the texcat wagon to bus – he was hopping off of it to have his vote on a scumbuddy when the day ended (in the moz lynch). Nothing about it is a dumb strategy in the slightest – I'd say it's a fairly good strategy.

Why not just fence-sit the moz mislynch? Why would he be so aggressive toward texcat?

Your logic doesn't add up. Aggressive bussing is actually a terrible strategy. Going out of your way to make sure you have a vote on a scumpartner you don't intend to lynch is silly. Aggressive bussing usually comes back to bite you in the ass.

I still think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Go back and read day two – nothing about what EP did was "aggressive bussing". I'm saying that he

wanted

the moz wagon to go through and for nobody else to vote texcat except for him that day. Again, I don't see what's silly about it in the slightest – it was a play for better associatives and VCA.

I don't see how this scum!EP tex bus makes any sense. It's a dumb move because WIFOM and bussing almost always comes back to bite you in the butt. EP is clearly not this stupid... We could get into WIFOM here, but we have room for 2 mislynches and I'd say EP's third on the chopping block anyway.

More votes on COA.

"Because WIFOM"? I don't think you actually understood what I was saying.

The only reason to bus is because you think that nobody else would do it, when it's actually one of the first "sneaky" things people think of. Most people who bus do so badly. Most of the time it backfires at some point. Add to that the consequences of being down one mafioso and you realize that bussing isn't all that clever.

If scum!EP is employing WIFOM-based bussing, it will bite him in the ass before he has a chance to win.

It wasn't mean to be a bus, that's what I'm saying – read 1871. EP never intended for tex to get lynched from his vote on her.

[CultOfAthena]

@Thor, can I hear more from you on your Max read?

[CultOfAthena]

@Thor, can I hear more from you on your Max read?

Like what?
I've explained it already and am not hiding deeper/better evidence for a surprise reveal later.

I suppose I just lost track of your original reasoning for it – I understand that you were looking at the votecounts but I felt like there was something I was missing. Mind repeating the concise version of it?

Are we getting cold feet on the Athena lynch?
She did nothing but double down on EP earlier in the day and now she just pretended to engage with Thor about a read on me because the Errant push has lost steam.
She should of been analysing my play at the start of the day like everyone else.

What about what I've done has been "pretending"?

Nope staying on Athena.
If Errant was scum Moz would of been lynched yesterday
He had an easy chance to push that through but decided to bus hid buddy instead?
Nah

I'll say the exact same thing that I've been saying to Beef – EP voted tex at a point in the day yesterday when RC was hard tunnelling moz and it was an almost certainty that the moz wagon was going to go through. It was a play for distancing that backfired when the wagon actually switched to tex – moz describes it pretty well in 1934.

[CultOfAthena]

Beef – fairly confident the game ends when EP is lynched. He's not even making any pretense towards a defense anymore.

[CultOfAthena]

Good game all, well played to town. I feel good about my play this game (relatively speaking), it was associatives that really killed me. Definitely didn't do a good enough job of distancing from my partners.