Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[Klick]

fuck I pressed submit that's a work in progress

[Klick]

TOWN

Beefster:

This is my strongest read. I really like Beef's 115 which is where my townread of him started. There's inconsistency in his reads and odd flops of his vote, in ways that I think he'd be more careful about as scum. Most recently, I like the way he's criticizing mozamis in his last post for voting CoA, joining his own wagon, because it doesn't line up with moz's reads. He just looks really genuine to me, thus he's my strongest townread.

mozamis:

Post 95 has my main argument for moz-town, and not much has changed my view on him. I don't particularly

like

his most recent posts just repeating the same list of possible scum over and over again with slight changes, but I do think his reads are genuine and coming from town. I particularly don't think moz-scum goes from "SCUM ARE IN THESE FIVE PEOPLE" to "meh okay let's vote this townread that's actually neutral." He's not showing awareness of how his actions are making him look. Unless he's getting extremely detailed in trickery, he's town.

Moneybags:

This feels right. I'm reading through Moneybags' posts and seeing very clear town motivation in pretty much everything he says. For example:

Do you have any remarks on what I have said about Flub? It should be able to be gathered from my ISO. No one else has really had anything to say about it. I'd appreciate another opinion.

This looks like it's coming from the perspective of someone who genuinely wants people to weigh in on their thoughts. Thinking from the perspective of scum-Moneybags (Scummybags?), having just put together a wall of content, I would probably be just fine with my post being passed up and not getting much flak on Day 1 while other players took heat. Moneybags wants opinions on the thoughts he's put together. Now, if a player like Thor did this I'd consider it null; Thor obviously wants to shape the game regardless of what role he has, he does it every game. Moneybags doesn't seem like that kind of extremely dominant player, therefore I feel like this is a solid towntell for him.
I also really liked Moneybags' early read on Beef, leading to my own strong townread on Beef.

CultOfAthena:

I'm just now reading through her ISO again and coming to this conclusion. For the longest time I've had her sitting at null. But I really like the contributions she made early-game. There are subtleties to her reads that I don't think look faked.

The only person I've played with here before is mozamis, who so far seems fairly similar to our previous game.

I like how Thor focused on, or rather engaged with multiple people and dislike how PP primarily focused just on Thor.

If moneybags is scum, I doubt PP is.

I don't really see much that's scummy about Maxous. It's a weak read but from his first post I'd be inclined to say he's more likely town. It shows more concern for sorting people than for fitting in.

This post in particular has what I'm talking about. What is scum-COA trying to accomplish with these details? Getting the read of Moneybags and PP not being scum-buddies, and especially the weak Maxous town-read. It would have been fairly easy to not bother defending that sort of read, but I thinks he genuinely has this weak town feeling about Maxous and therefore said it anyway.
Her flip-flop multiple times on her mozamis meta-read also seems extremely genuine. As scum you'd have to expect her to have some sort of direction she wants to put mozamis in, but she doesn't; she keeps sorting him back and forth with this meta-read.

LEANING TOWN

Flubbernugget:

As I said in my last post, the wagon on him currently makes no sense to me. At first I was put off by his abrasive posting style, but everything game-related he's posted lines up with my own thoughts on the game really well. I can't really pinpoint what it is that gives me my townread on Flubbernugget. Call it gut, I guess, and a little bit of texcat looking super bad on his wagon.

Bellaphant:

This is a very slight read. I'm wary of Bella's ability to come across as genuine and town-looking. But one thing does stand out to me a little:

I liked the vote as well: it seemed to want to move on from the thor/pp thing which people (now flubber) are stil dragging, and felt like a gut reaction to max's weird 'I have SEKRIT' townreads. tex is prolly the player i've got most experience of here as well.

Actually

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Maxous

I don't feel like scum-Bella gives the thread a second thought after her first post. I feel like scum-Bella is more calculated than that, sure of what she wants to do before she posts, while town-Bella is more impulsive like this.
It's not much, but enough to raise her from the null pile.

NULL

ErrantParabola:

Okay I reeeally want them to be town because I really like the reads they presented in 178. But ultimately most of what they've posted is just a big pile of bleh and I can't discern an actual good read yet. I definitely don't want to lynch them today, I want to see more from them, but I can't say I have a read yet.

Thor:

I'm still nowhere with him. But I feel like that has potential to change soon. Really interested in his response to me about his Flubber suspicion.

HeWhoSwims:

I really have no idea how to read him. He seems very level-headed, and a lot of what he's posting is relatively safe and could come from either alignment. I could see him as scum failing to make any false steps, or I could see him as a helpful town member. I think a game day or two will do a lot to influence this read.

LEANING SCUM

Maxous:

I had a gut town read on him at one point, but reading through again I'm missing it and really can't find anything that indicates Maxous-town. Everything he's giving feels very borderline and easily-faked. The problem with that is you never know if it's lazy town, lazy scum, or under-the-radar scum. 2/3 of those are scum, so I'm going to put Maxous in the leaning scum pile.

Transcend:

Penguin's contribution to this game was practically nothing. I didn't like his start, and he wasn't around long enough to improve. Transcend's posts so far have been regurgitated reads with no explanation. I'd be completely fine with lynching this.

texcat:

I had a weak gut townread on texcat earlier. It was based on Post 58 seeming like genuine opinions. It was small, and I now feel like it is something tex would do as either alignment based on her posting style.
But the Flubbernugget vote is really, really bad. She gave no real indication she had any sort of read on Flubbernugget before the vote. Her vote was based on hypocrisy, not really alignment-indicative in any sense. But she's gung-ho about it, and sets Flub into what seems to me like a manipulated lose-lose scenario. I don't believe texcat actually has the opinion on Flub she claims to have. It's too flashy, too overconfident.


VOTE: texcat

[Transcend]

Lol haha hehe voting the lynchbait

[HeWhoSwims]

Klick, what's your opinion on 78 and 123 which seem townish to me? Max, perhaps we could get a reads list from you too since all I spotted on a quick ISO search was 2 scum and 2 nullscum ones.

Transcend, I get that Tex could be called "lynchbait" but what would your arguments to keep him be? He's not the hardest playing townie. Some of the arguments against Tex make sense. Could you elaborate on your Bella townlean?

I've been liking Beef's posts since my reads list. I don't quite get his thing against Athena though - it didn't seem like that much pressure to me. Also, EP called "It's my playstyle" out as scummy but I'm not quite sure there. Doesn't seem like something incriminating that should warrant a lynch. Fearing this is TvT.

About Flubbernugget. I think he has some wacky points and they are making me suspicious. Can we talk about 174? Not looking at the vote or the poster, Flubber wasn't really making that much a case himself it seems, and what was bothering me more about this post was the "Bella votes are pro town" thing 98 plus not voting there himself. I'm not quite getting it. Can we talk about my final paragraph in 166? I found his logic weird here if what I wrote is accurate (it seemed as such to me)

[HeWhoSwims]

Quick 5-tier read post, I feel like my previous explanations + what I've addressed since should be enough for now.

T: Mozamis, Moneybags
TL: Thor665, Beefster, COA, Max
N: Klick, texcat, EP
SL: (Transcend), Bellaphant, Flubbernugget
S: -

Transcend read is obviously mostly based on Penguin hence the brackets.

[Thor665]

@Mod - I know it's minor, but it always helps me when replacements start happening - could you update the first post with who is replacing who? It can wait till the second replacement pops in. Thanks and lurvs in advance!

You don't have a case.

You've never asked for my case, so how do you know whether or not I have one?
Oh, right, this is just more empty posting like you've been doing all game.

@Thor:

Could you please explain why you find Flubber scummy to me? Show some of your cards; I want to see what you're seeing.

Short answer - gut.
Long answer - I'll break it down to a single point to try to explain the gut. But basically Flubber went in pretty deep on discrediting/attacking me. In and amongst that attack he leveled a complaint that our meta together shows I read him fast and he finds it questionable on some level that I haven't read him fast enough here. And that's a reasonably valid stance to have, I suppose.

Except I don't recall that as a meta with him - so I asked him to back it up.

I got crickets. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

Now, on a theoretical level - let's say he's town, therefore what he's saying is true.
Why wouldn't he throw that info in my face to force me to respond to help him get a read on me/prove to others I was scum?
I can literally think of no reason.

Now let's say he's town and he recalled wrong - is there any reason outside of personal shame not to kind of go 'oops, recalled wrong!' and adjust how he's interacting with me because now he has a better read of me because he's corrected wrong info?
Nothing I can think of - and his attitude towards me assuredly hasn't shifted, has it?

Now let's say he's scuma nd was lying/misrepping the reality of our history.
Avoiding *that* discussion makes a whole lot of sense.
Doubling down with a "ooooh, I said Thor should read me fast and now he's voting me" curls my toes also as it ignores that theoretically he claims to think I *do* read him fast and hard, and also ignores that I tried to interact with him functionally multiple times and he's avoided it while claiming I'm not reading him fast enough.

He's been avoiding a lot while casting shade and mud constantly (reference my ongoing of just trying to get him to explain why he thinks the wagon on him is bad considering all the shade he's tossing out about it)

That;s why I'm voting him.

Only read to like page 7 and here's where I'm at

1. mozamis town
2. Thor665 town
3. PenguinPower * me
4. HeWhoSwims leantown
5. Moneybags towny but bad vibes can't explain why
6. Bellaphant weak tr
7. Klick scum
8. Flubbernugget town
9. texcat null
10. Beefster townish
11. CultOfAthena nullish
12. Maxous town
13. Errantparabola dead null

Why are you TRing Bella? That slot has been trash thus far. Null? Sure. But town?
Also, have you looked at CoA's most recent reaction post to the wagon on her? That is screaming town to me, why aren't you getting the same read?

[Flubbernugget]

scum-Moneybags (Scummybags?),

Not actually making a point here, but this was pretty funny

--

And no Thor, I didn't explicitly ask you for your case on me, but I casted suspicion on you never posting one almost immediately after your vote.

I don't recall you asking me to back up my meta read at all. If I didn't answer your question, why didn't you quote it several times like you did with maxous?

It's very fair to consider the wagon on me bad when the player known for being able to make strong cases isn't making an actual case on me.
---

Not 100% caught up.

[Maxous]

So I am phone reading this thread and trying to keep up fyi.
Just a bit busy.
Don't think I have a whole lot to say at the moment anyway

[Moneybags]

So I'd like to start by saying my stance on Flub is now a very strong null read. He's done a lot of things to make me suspicious but I'm no longer confident in saying he's scum. He made a post saying something like "the change in my gameplay was literally me no longer arguing with thor". I agree that could easily explain what I was seeing. I am, however, still not a fan of his reactions to things. For example him telling thor that there is no case against him in 334 just rubs me the wrong way. I feel like the post he made explaining the change I and others picked up on is fair. I do still have problems with other things of his. For now I'm going to remain on the fence cause I felt like I've been reading too much into his posts in general.

I'm going to UNVOTE: Transcend. I was going to leave my vote on PP until he came back and gave me a reason to remove it. I'm changing my stance on him to null until we can get more solid information. He's either town trying to make up for PP's failure to play the role, or scum trying to dig out of his current situation. Either explication is currently valid.

I do want to address Klick. I noticed some things from him early on that I decided to keep quiet on so he would play unaffected. Other people have since brought it up so now that it's out in the open I want to bring up some things I didn't see mentioned.

The Bella Exchange:

Which way is the gut read on texcat, and what posts does it come from? Because I have the same thing.

Yeah, I had a weird gut townread on texcat as well reading earlier. Something about the post he made on page 3 seemed like... minimal content, but in a genuine way? idk.

I think we all can agree this is strange. I know he explained this in one of his recent posts as him being insecure. However what's strange to me is that he would ask this after voting her in 95. Keep in mind this was when PP and Max were the top wagons. Shortly after in 98 Flub made his "bella votes are town votes" remark. In retrospect, I feel like he actually might have been on to something here.

The Moneybags Exchange:

On my phone. Just posting to say I really, really like your post 150 Moneybags. Particularly the Beefster bit - that was a nice catch, and I think I'm going to townread him now as well. I agree with not quite seeing Maxous-scum at this point in time, and his wagon is very peculiar/interesting to me. Going to look into the votes on him in detail when I get back on my laptop.

In context of a Beef-scum scenario, this is

really

interesting. I also townread Klick in my post 150. This in light of the bella exchange feels like straight up buddying with me. Also it gave him a reason to say Beef is for sure town, which he seems really enthusiastic about.

Beefster is Town (thanks Moneybags), also Flubber might be scum but I'm not committing:

Alright, reads.
mozamis - slight Town-lean for reasons I've already discussed.
Beefster - Town-lean based on Moneybags' point; I can't discern his alignment beyond that, but the argument that he wouldn't make such a drastic change in reads just like that is one I can get behind.
Thor - Thor

Moneybags - I guess a Town lean? Essentially I'm seeing a bunch of pro-Town activity from you - what you're doing is advancing the Town agenda - but I can't say that's totally alignment-indicative just yet. But I want you to be town. Your reads make sense from a town perspective and you're a good mind to be able to rely on in this team. I think for convenience's sake I'm going to assume you're Town for a little while, and reevaluate at a later point. More than likely I'm right and we'll start getting somewhere by cooperating.

texcat - I felt good about his second post as I discussed before. It would really help if he posts more so I can further cement that read if he's town. Null-leaning-town.

Bella - I didn't like her second post, but my vote on her has been more to encourage her to get in here and get involved than anything. I was really hoping once she got active she would show me she was town really quickly (I know Bella very well personally, we joined this to play together). That didn't quite happen. I can't shake an annoying gut scum read of her, but I also can't justify it beyond that second post.

Flubbernugget - I want to say Scum, but I'm not going to, mostly because I think the things I'm seeing as scummy are probably playstyle-related. Namely, he's been primarily focused on exactly two subjects all game; the never-ending discussion of Thor's activity read on Penguin, and the whole "votes on Bella are pro-town" thing (and he keeps being baited into that discussion). Due to his reactive/responsive posting style, I don't think it's really indicative of alignment, but at the same time I really want to hear about more things than that from him. Especially since he mentioned Penguin would be scum if all he could do was argue with Thor, which is all Flubber is really doing at this point. Null for the time being, but I'd like to fix that.

Points on Beef and myself have been commented on already. I think his non-stance on flubber is interesting.

Official Reads (Finally, on page 15):

TOWN

Beefster:

This is my strongest read. I really like Beef's 115 which is where my townread of him started. There's inconsistency in his reads and odd flops of his vote, in ways that I think he'd be more careful about as scum. Most recently, I like the way he's criticizing mozamis in his last post for voting CoA, joining his own wagon, because it doesn't line up with moz's reads. He just looks really genuine to me, thus he's my strongest townread.

LEANING TOWN

Flubbernugget:

As I said in my last post, the wagon on him currently makes no sense to me. At first I was put off by his abrasive posting style, but everything game-related he's posted lines up with my own thoughts on the game really well. I can't really pinpoint what it is that gives me my townread on Flubbernugget. Call it gut, I guess, and a little bit of texcat looking super bad on his wagon.

Bellaphant:

This is a very slight read. I'm wary of Bella's ability to come across as genuine and town-looking. But one thing does stand out to me a little:

I liked the vote as well: it seemed to want to move on from the thor/pp thing which people (now flubber) are stil dragging, and felt like a gut reaction to max's weird 'I have SEKRIT' townreads. tex is prolly the player i've got most experience of here as well.

Actually

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Maxous

I don't feel like scum-Bella gives the thread a second thought after her first post. I feel like scum-Bella is more calculated than that, sure of what she wants to do before she posts, while town-Bella is more impulsive like this.
It's not much, but enough to raise her from the null pile.

LEANING SCUM

Maxous:

I had a gut town read on him at one point, but reading through again I'm missing it and really can't find anything that indicates Maxous-town. Everything he's giving feels very borderline and easily-faked. The problem with that is you never know if it's lazy town, lazy scum, or under-the-radar scum. 2/3 of those are scum, so I'm going to put Maxous in the leaning scum pile.

Transcend:

Penguin's contribution to this game was practically nothing. I didn't like his start, and he wasn't around long enough to improve. Transcend's posts so far have been regurgitated reads with no explanation. I'd be completely fine with lynching this.

texcat:

I had a weak gut townread on texcat earlier. It was based on Post 58 seeming like genuine opinions. It was small, and I now feel like it is something tex would do as either alignment based on her posting style.
But the Flubbernugget vote is really, really bad. She gave no real indication she had any sort of read on Flubbernugget before the vote. Her vote was based on hypocrisy, not really alignment-indicative in any sense. But she's gung-ho about it, and sets Flub into what seems to me like a manipulated lose-lose scenario. I don't believe texcat actually has the opinion on Flub she claims to have. It's too flashy, too overconfident.


VOTE: texcat

Town Reads: Not surprising, except that he has nothing to say on anything against Beef, and is strongly still holding him up as town.
Leaning Town: Making Flubber and Bella lean town is interesting to me. It doesn't commit to pinning Flub as town but says "I can't really pinpoint what it is that gives me my townread on Flubbernugget." I left Bella in for context of the earlier exchange.
Scum Reads:

Way to play it safe.

Somehow people are still holding on to Max-Scum. I personally don't see it but ok. Still holding on to PP Scum? Ok yeah I really can't see that atm. Riding the PP train feels a bit blatant considering we don't currently have a lot to go off of from Transcend.

Tex?!

Are you sure? The one, safe bet for a scumread. "But they've been lurking!" C'mon man. This feels so strongly like it's the one wagon you could get away with shifting to. It feels dirty and I don't like it at all.

VOTE: Klick

[Moneybags]

VOTE: cult

Where the hell did this come from?

That's actually a good question, please explain.

As a side note I want to mention I think the case on Athena is

total garbage.

It's incredibly flimsy. Athena's been a solid poster as well. It feels like since no one really came out and townread her it made her a very good target (helpful + not favored by town).

I think Beefster is scum. His original vote on me only came after I called him out for his questioning being superficial, and since then it seems like he's had to come up with reasons to keep justifying his vote on me. Look at his response to mozamis:

Pfft. I had my reasons.

I just didn't feel like expressing them at the time

. In my big reads post, I had her as null. (she was initially town before I posted my reads) I described her as "good questions. not much else" and

after a couple more of her posts

, it just solidified that her posts have been methodical and perhaps a little deceptive or misdirecting. I don't know if I can point to any particular post or line.

I haven't really been paying super close attention. I was juggling 2 other games with AGDQ.

I've highlighted what likely isn't true. First, the idea that Beefster had a slight scumlean on me that he "just didn't feel like mentioning" is doubtful, not just on face value but also on the fact that his reads list explicitly had a section for "scumleans" and one of them was explitly marked "slight" – if I was one of those slight scumleans before, why didn't he mention me there? Next, he says that "a couple more of my posts" solidified his scumlean on me, despite the fact that I only made one post inbetween his readslist and his vote.

Another thing I'd like to note is that I think I was right on the mark on Beefster "hedging" his read on me, given that he only resumed his push after

multiple

people declared that they didn't want a beefster wagon in response to his vote on me.

I feel like this is very solid. I feel like out of Beefster and Athena, Beef is much more likely to be scum. If Athena was scum that would make this, what, omgus? This is way more solid than Beefster's case on Athena.

[Thor665]

And no Thor, I didn't explicitly ask you for your case on me, but I casted suspicion on you never posting one almost immediately after your vote.

I agree that your goal was to make me look scummy for something that wasn't scummy.

I don't recall you asking me to back up my meta read at all. If I didn't answer your question, why didn't you quote it several times like you did with maxous?

You're still not answering the question I notice.

It's very fair to consider the wagon on me bad when the player known for being able to make strong cases isn't making an actual case on me.

Who is this player?
Because if it's me - what's the evidence in support of me making strong cases?
And if it's not me - whose case are you dogging on?

[Thor665]

And no Thor, I didn't explicitly ask you for your case on me, but I casted suspicion on you never posting one almost immediately after your vote.

I agree that your goal was to make me look scummy for something that wasn't scummy.

I don't recall you asking me to back up my meta read at all. If I didn't answer your question, why didn't you quote it several times like you did with maxous?

You're still not answering the question I notice.
I didn't re-ask because I never once felt that you had done it accidentally.

It's very fair to consider the wagon on me bad when the player known for being able to make strong cases isn't making an actual case on me.

Who is this player?
Because if it's me - what's the evidence in support of me making strong cases?
And if it's not me - whose case are you dogging on?

[texcat]

texcat: I had a weak gut townread on texcat earlier. It was based on Post 58 seeming like genuine opinions. It was small, and I now feel like it is something tex would do as either alignment based on her posting style.
But the Flubbernugget vote is really, really bad. She gave no real indication she had any sort of read on Flubbernugget before the vote. Her vote was based on hypocrisy, not really alignment-indicative in any sense. But she's gung-ho about it, and sets Flub into what seems to me like a manipulated lose-lose scenario. I don't believe texcat actually has the opinion on Flub she claims to have. It's too flashy, too overconfident.

Chuckling at the "really, really bad." Sounds like a tweet from Trump. What makes you think that hypocrisy is not AI? I was not "gung-ho" about my vote at all.

So make a case or something

Hmmmm...

VOTE: Flubbernugget
Telling me to make a case, when you are not. Plus telling us that voting Bella is a town thing to do, when you are not.

I only became sure of my scum read on Flubber when he OMGUS voted me. I didn't force him into any kind of scenario. Flubber's vote was the "really, really bad" vote, especially the part about me shading Bella, when he has called votes on her townie and repeatedly questioned the gut townread on me.

[Transcend]

Ok money can be town (:

[Transcend]

I said Bella was a weak tr, not a full town read

Also I've not had time to read the game in its entirety yet so my reads are incomplete.

[mozamis]

VOTE: cult

Where the hell did this come from?

i said in my previous post that her vagueness, wordiness and "reads recalcitrance" worried me.
it's not my strongest scum read, and i would prefer to lynch Bella, but i think a wagon on cult is definitely worth it.

[Transcend]

Coas page 11 was really fkn bad, btw.

Edit wow

[Transcend]

Hm, I feel like my posts are getting ignored here. I also didn't get really get any responses that I'm satisfied with from my questions. Is it my posting style?

I'm retracting my retraction on my mozamis read, which is to say that I'm fairly confident that he's town and is now posting exactly how I remember him to post from our last game together.

Texcat has done nothing to make me remember that he is in this game.

Go into detail on that please? I'm very curious where you're getting a scumread on me from Bella.

Why did you completely ignore everything I said in 186 to ask Bella about why she agreed with me? Am I a leper or something?

These are all abysmal posts and I'm fine with a Turbo wagon here.

[mozamis]

'm not quite sure how I would have handled the situation were I scum, but I don't think it would be like that.

too much info, nervous scum?

fos klick

[Transcend]

I don't think coa is solving the game hahaha lol

Money still giving me bad vibes but eh. Not d1 lynch worthy with all the effort he's put in and id rather keep him alive as scum than lynch him as town ykno

[Transcend]

'm not quite sure how I would have handled the situation were I scum, but I don't think it would be like that.

too much info, nervous scum?

fos klick

Wanna be my

buddy

[mozamis]

hey all, and hey maxous who was in my first ever game!

fun fact: you were in my first game.

it wasn't on this account though.

ah the agony of not knowing lol

[mozamis]

all these bloody alts make sme think that there actually only about 10 players on MS lol

[Transcend]

Go into detail on that please? I'm very curious where you're getting a scumread on me from Bella.

Why did you completely ignore everything I said in 186 to ask Bella about why she agreed with me? Am I a leper or something?

You gave reasons for your suspicion. Bella didn't. I also have a lot of experience with Bella as a person and didn't expect her to be scumreading me at this stage.

Mozamis, how is wagoning her going to help at all if she's just said real life went to shit and she will try to post tomorrow? If your goal is just outright lynching her now that makes sense, but if you want pressure on her I don't see how that will help.

Hey to the dude who made the klick/Bella associative you might be right.

But if one is town It's Bella.

[Transcend]

Ite let's own

VOTE: coa