Micro 772: Jester Nightless

[Mathdino]

i regret this so much

although HI TTH! i thought you left the site (i did)

good to see you again

[Mathdino]

Okay so

Jay roleplays (a bit extravagantly) alongside playing like a survivor, which he now knows gets him lynched. He's a weirdo in general. Lynchbait. Not a hydra though.

Not_Mafia is a troll. tbh I wouldn't have signed up for this if it were a normal game with NM. If it were a normal game I'd go for the policy jugular but there's a 1/9 chance of instaloss so *sigh*

Assemble is gonna lurk. sheep is gonna spam. What a duo.

That's all I know.

Edit: OH JESUS FUCK

[Mathdino]

Okay new strategy: Whenever the jester auto-dies, if it's not Not_Mafia, we speedlynch him.

Unless anyone here thinks he'd hardclaim jester as town.

[Mathdino]

Weird, I'm townreading Jay, that's a first.

[Mathdino]

Can I just mention how much I love this playerlist!

<3

this is an objectively wrong statement
i don't care if it's technically a subjective one

also ari is probably scum tbh
jay is town, assembaa could legit be jester
N_M is trolling (NAI), thinking ethos could be scum

SS is the nullest of nulltowns

[Mathdino]

Unless anyone here thinks he'd hardclaim jester as town.

Clearly you haven't played enough with him.

this intimidates me

i've only ever played with town-N_M once and he was a non-presence who quickvoted town first post in LyLo

so idk wtf to do with him

hopefully we get scum in first 3 days so we can policy lynch him after jester death

Edit: @Jay: Nah I usually gamesolve in LyLo. I'm undefeated in LyLos as town. THAT's how to survive in style, Jay.

[Mathdino]

Also, I'm not sharing jester reads except that I will only advocate lynching someone I have a confident not-jester read on.

I've been thinking about this too tbh.

I don't think both mafia would claim jester because they'd just be outed by LyLo.

So there's gotta be mafia in the non-trolls.

This kinda means that we have to lynch the people that actually seem like they're trying.

[Mathdino]

i hate myself and everything about this setup

[Mathdino]

I hereby elect to hang NotMaf, not on the account of his trolling nature, but on the fact he uses MafSilver as his preferred background.

everyone who made their accounts before like 2014 are defaulted to mafsilver

i switched to mafsepia tbh

[Mathdino]

i switched to mafsepia tbh

lol you would

the fuck does that mean bitch

[Mathdino]

Math... You and Smart are the only ones who's really trying right now. By your logic, one of you two are scum.

i hate myself and everything about this setup

[Mathdino]

i wasn't really responding to that post so much as the fact that TTH is in this game at all

i appreciate your positivity ari

got reads?

[Mathdino]

Ari could be jester. Fluffposting is a great way to get lynched.

VOTE: Heartless
let's try here.

[Mathdino]

Opening post doesn't read jester. That's my primary criterion.

[Mathdino]

Opening post doesn't read jester. That's my primary criterion.

Okay so you're not scumhunting, cool got it. Ethos and Mathdino, you're welcome town, lynch me out of gratitude?

I'm more concerned with weeding out the non-jesterclaims than the jesterclaims and possible jesters. The risk of game-ending is too high. Pretty sure I can solve by LyLo after jester death anyway.

[Mathdino]

Then I guess I'm not gonna solve LyLo?

I mean if there's ONE silver lining about this game it's that I'm not gonna get shot, and I'd like to think I'm pretty easy to read, so

if you're testing me for jester, no, I'm not jester and I'm not going to act like it.

Are you gaining any usable reactions from your shit?

[Mathdino]

If I actually get to lynch territory then yeah, I'll post a roadmap. A lot of my stuff doesn't actually work until LyLo though.

I'm not getting a mafia-jester-claim vibe from ethos. Getting it more from Assembaa tbh.

[Mathdino]

holy shit

yeah SS is town

[Mathdino]

oh my god

are you allowed to force them to confirm

[Mathdino]

Yeah, when I see an intelligent paragraph, I'll know it's Assemble instead.

OH SHIT

THE ONE BENEFIT OF THIS GAME IS WATCHING MY FAVORITE PLAYERS GO AT IT

[Mathdino]

Reads listing is weird because in a way there's 3 prongs, and I can't exactly graph people on a triangle. Will go in order.

Ari: Very obviously not jester I think. Playing in exactly a way that won't get him lynched. Former scumread here is kinda dying. I really just need content. Null between town/scum.

Assembaa: Glad this page's conversation happened. Upon review, Heartless's argument does make more sense. Would be weird for jester to say "I'm jester, and also townies totally claim jester!" If anything, they would rather people think other players are jesters so they can get lynched. Town or scum, leaning scum.

ethos: Getting town vibes here. I'm really doubting that the best strategy for jester to not get himself lynched is to hardclaim jester and joke scumslip.

Heartless: I'm torn. I love their arguments but it's hard for me to townread them outright. I actually kind of have a gut suspicion they're jester and are setting themselves to be in my/SS's pool of "people who read as non-jester". Need more content. Also the Jay read is shit.

Jay: This is pretty clearly town. Jay could EASILY get himself lynched as jester.

Not_Mafia: nope

SomethingSmart: Okay so this one is definitely not jester either. The defence of Assembaa is weird and doesn't totally make sense.

VOTE: Assembaa
Willing to see where this goes. I can maaaaybe sort sheep.

[Mathdino]

Doubt that'll work, but good to see NK15 isn't jester either.

Safelynchpool: Aristo, Assembaa, SomethingSmart, NK15

Actually probably scum pool: Assembaa, SomethingSmart, and probably Not_Mafia if he doesn't drop dead

[Mathdino]

No no no. I've played with Jay too often for this shit.

This is Jay's game. In fact this is even more townish than Jay usually is.

Go read a completed game of his.

@Jay:

Because I know you're probably going to, please don't bring up ongoing games. Let them find it if they're gonna look there.

[Mathdino]

So... the strategy is...
1. Day 1- Day 3: Lynch the most obvious townies.
2. Day 4: Hope that the 3 most scummy townies kill a mafia at LYLO
3.Day 5/6:Lynch the last mafia.
Right?

I mean if we make this the strategy it incentivizes the jester to go all obvtown on everyone and add themselves to the lynchlist.

[Mathdino]

Jay our goal right now is to repeatedly speedlynch 3 players who aren't you and aren't jester.

Think like a survivor.

[Mathdino]

You won't rage at me if I do, then?

It's Nightless. In order to survive you have to be good town. No reason to dodge the NK.

[Mathdino]

nm isnt jester
i dont see a world where he expects to be lynched like this

i can entirely see a world in which he pisses off me and jay enough to lynch him tbh

[Mathdino]

Of course you would, Sheep. He's not personally after your middle schooler sanity. Your both the same age mentally.

[Mathdino]

seriously though the longer we leave assembaa alive the less quality content they will produce

[Mathdino]

boring game

VOTE: Not_Mafia

if he's actually the jester, we're pretty much all idiots
but also w/e

[Mathdino]

And if he is, I honestly think we'll be better off without him.

And saying that, and if he flips scum, you just shot up my scum list, Smart.

All of my this.

If you guys are so sure he's not jester, then him out of the game is a net gain for us. Jester possibility is the only thing stopping me from lynching him off the face of the earth.

[Mathdino]

I think the very fact that you and I are even here is why he's doing the "too scummy to be scum" strategy. I fully expect him to autohammer any L-1s.

[Mathdino]

I think everyone came out of that game with the same two words. "

Never. Again.

"

Paradox went to the graveyard and told me he'd join games with N_M with me just to policy lynch him together.

[Mathdino]

He is readable.

so why the fuck is he self-voting

[Mathdino]

do you believe he's playing toward his wincon

[Mathdino]

Is Ari jester after all...? Regardless of N_M's flip, this is a weird convo.

[Mathdino]

People being afraid of L-1 and hammers is a symptom of
1. Wanting claims (no claims in this setup)
2. Wanting last words (like N_M is really gonna do that)

I'm okay with speedlynches on players who won't give last words in mountainous style games tbh.

[Mathdino]

We're Nightless. People can easily be accountable for their votes and there's no method to remove the towniest individuals.

[Mathdino]

so the question for me right now is

something smart continued to defend not_mafia after there was any utility doing so

is this town with shit reads and no concept of policy lynching

or is this scum doubling down so he doesn't look bad for defending his buddy

VOTE: Something Smart

tune in on this wagon tomorrow night at 9/8c to find out

[Mathdino]

okay but as jester why harddefend someone you don't even know/think is scum

if he's a jester he just got insanely lucky

i don't think he is tho

[Mathdino]

So we're agreed SS and NK15 are not only highly unlikely to be jester, but also are unlikely to be mafia.

So are we down to which one to lynch? Because it sure sounds like this is heading in a "lynch one then the other, then see who the jester is if the game is still up" direction.

[Mathdino]

I honestly have no idea what the fuck to do. Like, it's nightless, so we can just lynch all my suspects in a row, but I also have no reason to and no clue how to argue why we should lynch one first over another.

Like, we all agree we should be lynching non-jesters first and we're likely to hit scum. Now what?

Where are the votes at?

[Mathdino]

I'm good with SS's plan in terms of lynching NK15. Hopefully NK15 is right about SS being jester. Responding to a case on you with "yo the guy wanting you to lynch me is a fuckin jester" is really weird.

Plus this conversation is clearly one of those that's gonna be a distraction forever.

VOTE: NK15

[Mathdino]

25. Keep hydra and alt slips to minimum. Repeated hydra and alt slips will be punished by starting rumors about the player responsible, or maybe a player who is in no way related to the problem. I might get bored. Excessive hydra slipping may be subject to further punishment. Players must quote any hydra or alt slips using the account that is actually signed up for this game ASAP.

I heard sheep is in middle school, guys.

[Mathdino]

So what's the utility of this continued conversation for the rest of us exactly?

[Mathdino]

The entire site is going to know about it at this rate.

And between you and me Dino? I'm literally up to hang anyone at this point. Don't tell the others.

Can't say I disagree. The lack of NKs makes this easy mode. Pretty sure you're town so with one mafia left, and since I'll probably locktown someone else eventually, I'm pretty sure we win as long as we lynch non jesters.

I'd volunteer for it but that would immediately make everyone think I'm jester, which would hurt the plan

[Mathdino]

I also have a thought... If we say both me and Dino are town at this rate, we can hang literally everyone who's not Jester until there's just me and him left. Then we win!

Don't make me paranoid of you

Let's focus on hanging not jesters who seem like scum.

[Mathdino]

Hey, Dino...
How do you get from
249
to
266
???

The conversation made me think you're more likely to be scum.

If you're not (or, I guess, even if you are), I'm comfortable putting SS in the possible jester pool and lynching someone else as our 3rd.

[Mathdino]

Hmmmmmmmmm... defending yourself against a jester accusation? I think we should lynch Something Smart on Day 4.

Lining up lynches after we already nailed 1 mafia. It's unlikely mafia is gonna act like jester.

My current thoughts are to lynch me and NK in either order and then keep Jay and Math alive.

Makes me less comfortable about my scumread on him.
Naturally paranoia makes me think "oh shit what if he's saying exactly the thing that makes me think he's helpful town" but that can be dealt with later.

Do not lynch this one tomorrow, or today. Don't.

This weird repetition feels like LAMIST-y signalling. Can't defend yourself so you defend some other player. Also seemingly more fixated on who jester is than who scum is.

[Mathdino]

considering vi atm

sorry what'd you say

cuz i heard you say "lylo liability"

but correct me if i'm wrong *shrug*

[Mathdino]

k so until jingle tells us to shut up we should just assume the game is continuing

gonna do a looksie and find non-jesters

i will honest to god hammer myself if you put me at l-1 because i know i'm not jester and that i'm a safe lynch

the fact that i said that will unfortunately make you think i'm jester but whatever

[Mathdino]

NK15 made enough sense about SS for me to be extremely suspicious
arguing against a N_M policy lynch when N_M policy lynch is optimal strategy in every game is pretty jesterish

VOTE: Heartless

obv not jester, haven't gotten super townish vibes from them either

[Mathdino]

Okay honestly literally everyone so far has given more jester tells than Heartless.

Assembaa: Generally acts like a jester, claimed jester then took it back.

Aristophanes: "I WANT TO BE SURE WE'RE SAFE BEFORE I COMMIT" oh pls

ethos: The earliest currently alive jester claim

Jay: I mean I think he's town but if you guys all think he's jester then I guess we're not lynching him.

SS: Hard-defended Not_Mafia.

Nothing Heartless has done indicates jester. I think he's more likely scum that's given up after our quicklynch on his partner.

Edit: Okay guys we'll know who's jester tomorrow. The point is that Heartless is not jester, so vote him if you're actually not a jester. If you are, then of course you're gonna hold off on a lynch.

[Mathdino]

ethos, parking a vote on yourself is literally a jester claim

literally no one will ever vote you at this point

if you're town (or even scum i guess) just help move the game along

if you're jester, carry on tbh

[Mathdino]

lol ethos is actually probably scum now that i think about it

has a jester read on someone, then reverses it to "i think you're stupid for thinking i'm jester"

what even

[Mathdino]

wait no that just implies ethos is actually the jester

i don't know what the fuck i'm talking about

scum vs jester is weird shit

Edit: aaaand glad to see you're not jester

[Mathdino]

i assume at this point that jester can only be Ari or SS

[Mathdino]

rvs scumclaiming with a partner is in no way suicidal scum

i've seen this done before

riskier in a nightless game but still

[Mathdino]

Fuck. I assume that was a reaction test, ethos. If it wasn't, it functioned as one for me.

Jay townread dissipating.

I'd like to lynch whichever of Ari and SS is still alive tomorrow. Lay-low scum and whatnot. But I need to find a solid townread to PoE this.

[Mathdino]

Assume we haven't won yet until Jingle posts. Also lowkey assuming the jester is one of you and is trolling. But assuming not...

I'm having a hard time reading ethos, SS. Thoughts?

[Mathdino]

oh wow you're still here

VOTE: Aristophanes

[Mathdino]

jesus christ that "flip" left me shooketh

also if ari isn't dead, that hammerbus is clear scum move in N_M's drowning situation

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Assembaa

This is correct. It assumes that Jay wouldn't powerbus his partner and that ethos wouldn't counterclaim his partner, which would obviously be a gutsy move that I don't really feel like WIFOMing out right now.

[Mathdino]

My current belief is simply that if Heartless isn't jester we can lynch everyone other than you and Jay and win.

FTR, i'm currently trying to figure out why the fuck scum would say this

because buddying up to 2 different townies is a really weird play if you have to make it to lylo with them and win
like the only situation i can see scum being this confident in this strategy is if he thinks that paranoia will cause the me/jay bloc to break down because of what i said to jay last page (i.e. he thinks he can get me to vote jay)

so i'm getting cold feet on SS

i'll iso him later but assembaa is clearly next up

[Mathdino]

that's not a hammer but you're doing great at the too scummy to be scum strat

[Mathdino]

wait holy shit that's actually a hammer

okay i'm not flashwagoning this time, mod said game's not over

@Jay:

Which is it between SS and ethos and why? Do you care?

Edit: I'm trying to understand/parse your case on me and I'll get back to you once I can grok it

[Mathdino]

also: Scumreading mathdino if it's not game over. Distanced himself from Not_Maf from the jump and didn't vote to lynch until he was at L-2. Also, why would you say that he is bad and needs to die, but not until after the jester is gone? Were you wanting us to lynch 3 townies before the jester died? (see post 44). I'm assuming you didn't want to be lynched. And you didn't want the now confscum to be lynched until the end... curious.

1. There are now 2 completed games in which I've advocated for policy lynching Not_Mafia. It's objectively the right thing to do.

2. I realised by then that there were multiple people who were more jester-like and N_M is more likely to start wildly claiming jester as town. I didn't actually think he was scum, lol. The flip was a nice perk.
Also figured that there's no way N_M isn't getting himself lynched before D4 if he keeps acting like this, and more than a few people were confident he wasn't jester.

3. At first I figured, okay, regardless of N_M's behaviour, there's a 1/9 chance it's an insta-loss if I policy lynch him out the gate. So obviously not doing that.
Then as things went on that chance lowered in my mind and the utility of removing his vote outweighed the (probably like 1/20) chance that he was jester.

4. Eh. I would've been okay being lynched D2 and D3 because I knew I wasn't jester (pro-town move). I wouldn't have been okay with being lynched before N_M, however, because the last time I died trying to policy lynch him, the town completely gave up on the policy lynch.

5. You're assuming I ever thought he was scum. I thought he was a ninth of a jester at first, then lynchworthy town.

Edit: I don't think you understand why I'm asking that question, and I'm not explaining it to you until Jay gets back.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: ACTUALLY. BOTH times I tried to policy lynch Not_Mafia, I died and town lost due to Not_Mafia in both games. Once due to a flashvote and once because he happened to have a scum role PM.

[Mathdino]

When you said I'm trying too hard, I assume it's because of the question I asked, which I'm not explaining.

And I fail to see how the fix makes your case any better.

[Mathdino]

I'm looking through the game trying to figure out ethos's trajectory and I'm really not seeing it.

So he just hammers Assembaa when I can't find a trace of him actually scumreading them in the ISO.

The only connection between Assembaa and ethos is that Assembaa got in a slapfight with ethos over jesterhood and whether he should be lynched.

Now he comes into D5 with a brand new scumread on me, again with no trajectory in sight.

Interpretation: Assembaa and I were/are his main obstacles in getting to LyLo because he knows that the most likely scenario is one of us speedlynching him with Jay in endgame. 385 is indicative that he's forced to break up the minitownbloc {Jay, Math, lowkey SS} somehow to win.

VOTE: ethos
Fuck not flashvoting, pretty sure this wins.

[Mathdino]

1. Was hoping to also set an example to Jay to not flashwagon as well. But it's pretty clear today is gonna be about this 1v1. And if SS is scum in the end, town!you and I need to resolve this before LyLo.

2. I'm not asking you why you hammered Assembaa. The fact that there was no indication that you even would is the bad thing. At this point you can say whatever reason you want.

3. Because SS isn't gonna convince me to lynch Jay, and Jay isn't gonna convince me to vote SS without damning reasons. Go ahead and countervote, don't condescend.

If you're not planning to though, and supposing you get me lynched, I need good reasons to not direct town to just lynch you tomorrow (which is currently my plan). So suppose you do lynch me. Why is it Jay and/or SS?

Edit: That's actually a good question.

I never considered you as a lynch option because your lowkey jester claim made it highly likely you were pretending to be jester, making you an unsafe lynch. My plan was always to lynch people I didn't think were jester (ideally those who more likely to be scum) first, then after jester dies, go through the jester claims. Earlier, my assumption was that one mafia would claim jester and one wouldn't.
On reevaluation tho, given that N_M's last scumgame involved basically 0 communication with his buddy IIRC, I'm guessing you guys both went in to claim jester and didn't really think it through the way I'd expect a scumteam to do. But that fits both your playstyles.

The reason I'm now explicitly scumreading you though (and over SS) is because it makes too much sense for you to remove Assembaa and me in order to even have a shot in LyLo. You can't shoot me, so you have to lynch me somehow. And tbh, your case gutreads to me like you don't actually believe I'm scum.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: your lowkey jester claim made it highly likely you were

pretending to be

actually

jester, making you an unsafe lynch

fucked up lol

[Mathdino]

Interesting play. Setting yourself up as lynchbait and, if you're scum, trying to "conftown" yourself.

The problem for you from a town perspective is that by saying "LYNCH WHOMEVER HAMMERS ME", you've basically nulled/WIFOM'd that vote analysis because scum now has to wait for town to hammer you. But wait, that means only town would hammer you, so it's in scum's best interest to hammer you. But wait...

You see where I'm going. You've clearly thought this out and on most other sites I can see that being a great scumplay. But as it is, I can't in good conscience NOT vote a self-voter, and the fact that you're specifically framing it as "lynch whomever votes me" instead of "I'll die, just get Mathdino tomorrow" really strikes me as more scum motivated than town motivated. Because if it's coming from town, you're not gonna get anything out of this, and I feel like you'd have realised that.

You cool too tho. I agree on defusing the page-long 1v1 but it's cool if you respond to the above new accusation. Your call.

[Mathdino]

1. ok. This does unfortunately null a lot of the coming behaviour from Jay and SS.

2. Kinda trying to figure out what you're saying here.

You're reading genuine, so part of me wants to reevaluate. But letting you live sets the precedent that anti-town moves can be used to conf-town oneself. That's how N_M-scum won in the game where we didn't lynch him, and that's a major reason I wanted to immediately policy him when I figured he wasn't jester. Leaving him alive on the basis that scum wouldn't do that would be significantly more dangerous.

But it seems like you're asking me why I said that, and also why I said that if I'm scum? I said that just as a "my vote stands". And indicating to you that self-voting isn't a good scumplay on this site because I think most people have that "eugh, self-voting" reaction. Hell, in one game, some townie that I was initially townreading went and hammered himself out of frustration. Due to mod error, it wasn't counted as a hammer, so I went in there and rehammered him just in case, partially on principle.

So I think what you're suggesting is that scum-me wants to save face after you theoretically flip town, and so I'm distancing myself from my own vote while keeping my vote on you to look like a townie?

I'm having trouble understanding what you think my trajectory here is and how that makes sense for scum-me tbh. If you're actually town, I think you might be in confbias mode, where every post I make has some kind of scum motivation in it that you can pick apart. So watch out for that in general I guess.

But tbh the last time I was tunneled in this way they flipped scum so this convo might all be for naught. If you flip scum, it's gonna be an interesting conversation postgame, because I do wanna talk about the strategy you're using rn.

[Mathdino]

sup ok

I read ethos's post last night and I was like "wtf i'm not responding to this until I see thoughts from other people" because ethos's train of thought is legitimately difficult for me to decipher sometimes.

And then I find that you two didn't comment on me vs ethos at all.

brb answering SS's question

but yeah please do comment on all that shit

jay answer my question that i asked you yesterpage

[Mathdino]

Math. Explain your read progression on me.
You townread me day 1, then you scumread me day 2, then you jester-read me day 3, and now you townread me again. Why?

Incoming wall.

Spoiler: My Progression (or lack thereof) on SS

Mod, has Not_Mafia confirmed his role yet?

holy shit

yeah SS is town

This was a banger of a question and I figured it was more than likely good town.

In retrospect I can see how this might've come from a frustrated partner, but yeah.

SomethingSmart: Okay so this one is definitely not jester either. The defence of Assembaa is weird and doesn't totally make sense.

This was after your conversation with Heartless which I was honestly having trouble parsing and figuring out exactly how to read people in a jester game.
A lot of that conversation didn't totally make sense to me at the time (or really make sense now) so I was kind of tabling reading you for later.

Safelynchpool: Aristo, Assembaa, SomethingSmart, NK15

Actually probably scum pool: Assembaa, SomethingSmart, and probably Not_Mafia if he doesn't drop dead

Note that D1-D3 I was more concerned with finding safe lynches than outright finding mafia vs town. A bunch of my reads wildly shifted between possible scum and possible town.
i also didnt really give a shit because jester game

so the question for me right now is
something smart continued to defend not_mafia after there was any utility doing so
is this town with shit reads and no concept of policy lynching
or is this scum doubling down so he doesn't look bad for defending his buddy

VOTE: Something Smart

By this point I was pissed off that you tried to stall the N_M policy lynch, but at the very least pretty sure you weren't jester, which is mostly what I was concerned about.

Defending not_maf at all in this game seems like a viable jester strat lmao

I'll grant this. I like to whiteknight as scum and I really did think he was town so as jester I would have been much more passively defending him, probably by just calling people dumb and repeating that he was town rather than addressing their actual arguments. (Conversely, I would NEVER defend him after that wagon as his partner because I saw such a low chance of people actually listening to me.)

However. I think the rest of the day should prove that I'm not jester. I can easily point to a half dozen things I would have done differently.

I say this because I should probably not live to LYLO, and if I'm not going to I should be lynched today or tomorrow. And before you go OMG jester play!!!1! remember that I'd have to have somehow CORRECTLY and confidently read Not_Mafia, despite your implications that he's difficult or impossible to read.

Hmmmmmmmmm... defending yourself against a jester accusation? I think we should lynch Something Smart on Day 4.

This conversation with NK15 was pretty crucial to putting you in the "Oh shit he actually could be jester" pool. Defending against a jester accusation is pretty fuckin weird.

My current thoughts are to lynch me and NK in either order and then keep Jay and Math alive.

Literally asking to be lynched.

NK, am I jester or scum?

Pick one.

You are scum. You are either Jester scum or Mafia scum. I don't know which one. That is why I said that you should die Day 4. By then, you either suicided as Jester or are the last remaining mafia.

How can my actions have jester motivation or mafia motivation but not town motivation?

At the moment, I am not sure if you try to get towncred by telling others you want to get lynched as townie to prevent the Jester from winning...
or if you are really the Jester trying to get lynched on Day 3.
And that defense on Day 1, of Not Mafia, I don't know if you are their partner trying to avert a (for mafia) horrible Day 1 Mafia lynch or if you are the Jester who scumread them(especially easy if you know that they are NOT Jester because there is only one, you...) and tried to look suspicious

This conversation was also helpful for that. I don't know if you want me to expand on this. Just made sense except for one the points in the most recent post. I figured you intentionally acted as the odd one out/stick in the mud about lynching N_M to draw attention.

Hey, Dino...
How do you get from
249
to
266
???

The conversation made me think you're more likely to be scum.

If you're not (or, I guess, even if you are), I'm comfortable putting SS in the possible jester pool and lynching someone else as our 3rd.

I still scumread NK15 at the time though. I figured, okay, I'm scumreading both of you, but NK15 is unlikely to be jester while SS could very possibly be jester. So if NK15 turns out to have been coming from a town mindset, I trust that read, and will lynch someone else D3.

NK15 made enough sense about SS for me to be extremely suspicious
arguing against a N_M policy lynch when N_M policy lynch is optimal strategy in every game is pretty jesterish

Suspicious of jesterness to be clear. Reiteration of what I said.

Okay honestly literally everyone so far has given more jester tells than Heartless.

SS: Hard-defended Not_Mafia.

D3 was primarily motivated by the fact that in my mind, basically anyone but Heartless could've been jester. I mostly cared about getting past the D3/D4 threshold so we could flip the jester and get to real scumhunting.

My current belief is simply that if Heartless isn't jester we can lynch everyone other than you and Jay and win.

FTR, i'm currently trying to figure out why the fuck scum would say this

because buddying up to 2 different townies is a really weird play if you have to make it to lylo with them and win
like the only situation i can see scum being this confident in this strategy is if he thinks that paranoia will cause the me/jay bloc to break down because of what i said to jay last page (i.e. he thinks he can get me to vote jay)

so i'm getting cold feet on SS

i'll iso him later but assembaa is clearly next up

This is me utterly confused on how to read you and diving straight into a WIFOM pool. By this point, it was unstated that I was scumreading you (since you didn't suicide after D3) but then you said 384 and I was like wtffff why is he saying this
So I tabled it for later and decided on Assembaa for now.

3. Because SS isn't gonna convince me to lynch Jay, and Jay isn't gonna convince me to vote SS without damning reasons. Go ahead and countervote, don't condescend.

ethos quickhammered and then did the Mathcase so I never really got around to doing the ISO on SS.

tl;dr you're hard to read, for D1-D3 I was mostly concerned with "oh god is he jester" (and even then, you're hard to read) and D4-D5 i was always more concerned with something else
i still have not figured out a lot of the things i was "wtf"ing with regard to your play
so that's what today is for i guess

[Mathdino]

Okay cool.

Jay actually giving a shit about who we lynch today is town-indicative I think.

@ethos: that's why I asked the question, was a reaction test fishing for "eh let's just lynch them both in whatever order".

and hot damn i really do not want to get to lylo with "queen of scum winning" elsa

[Mathdino]

1. Jay brags in many games about how every time he makes it to LyLo scum wins.
Strangely, every time I make it to LyLo as town, town wins.
So I'm wondering if it cancels out but I would really prefer not to find out.

2. It was the way in which you stalled it. I would've been okay if you were like HEY GUYS THIS IS LIKELY JESTER and you might've gotten me to believe you. But you (IIRC) argued that it was within N_M's meta to be a shithead and I was like "YEAH THAT'S LITERALLY THE POINT".

I like policy lynching people. I didn't only join it because I was bored. I stopped not-being-on-it because I was bored, figured he was gonna get lynched anyway, and he was more likely than not, not jester. I was ready to lynch his ass out the gate.

I heavily suspect he knew I would try to lynch him and acted as jester as possible because he knew that's the only situation in which I wouldn't try to immediately policy him.

Regardless, his scum flip didn't reflect well on you at all, and I agreed with NK15 that you were either scumbuddies or jester trying to be in people's way.

[Mathdino]

What?

I see no reason that "defending your buddy from a policy lynch" is non-alignment-indicative.

And ok, I didn't go back to check, but that's honestly worse, lol.

Edit: brb gonna go check

[Mathdino]

Ohhhh shiiiiiet jester is my favorite role ))))

I'm not the jester please stop harassing me......

Someone's sensitive, goon much?

Wait I just realized I am the jester my bad

Wait I just realised you're full of shit my bad

eth0s who's your partner?

You're saying that like you don't know

Shit I thought this was the mafia PT

lol fuck it
VOTE: Not_Mafia

I don't think they planned this out beforehand. Reads more as an impromptu elaborate LOL FUCK IT THIS IS A JESTER GAME LET'S DO THE MOST OUTLANDISH THINGS POSSIBLE distancing play. I think ethos realised that due to both of them claiming jester, one of them would have to go, and chose to go for max towncred.

[Mathdino]

Do you think scum-me expected me and Not_Mafia to both live to endgame?

I don't think you expected him to die on D1.

Otherwise I wasn't really thinking about this so idk what you're asking.

[Mathdino]

Ahh I see what you're saying.

I hope you understand the issue though with me getting a response that's basically "I wouldn't do that as scum". Like, the fact that you're even still here is proof that hard-defending a scumflip DOESN'T get you lynched. I'm not gonna townread you for something when you clearly expect to be townread for it.

re: ethos: Earlier votes mean more towncred, that's all I mean by "max".

I assume this is heading into your reads list looking something like Math > Jay > ethos > SS.

The thing is, it's almost the equivalent of LyLo. Any scum would know they need to not get lynched and would also know who they need to lynch to win. I don't see the questions you're asking as having much benefit given that scum-me is gonna say whatever looks most town under pressure. The same goes for you; it's why I'm not interrogating you or ethos (like asking him why he lolhammered or voted N_M, because it really doesn't matter now).

If you want to make a case on me, you should do so. Rn though you're doing this weird thing that seems like you're preemptively defending yourself against a situation where ethos flips town (you know where this is going, the old "SS knows ethos won't flip scum"). I wasn't going after you in the first place today.

[Mathdino]

Then I'm not sure if anything I say is gonna change that. I literally tell newbies that once votes are cast in LyLo you should basically ignore everything people say unless there are outright slips going on. Like, if you're not convinced I'm town by reading my ISO (and honestly a lot of what I've said is pretty easily gleaned from my ISO), then we're at an impasse. Plus this is exacerbating my paranoia; initially I figured "okay ethos is scum and we just win if I convince them of this obvious thing" but now it looks like you're gearing up for a Mathdino --> ethos lynch, because you know I'd win in LyLo against you and you know you'd win in LyLo against a flailing ethos.

You're a good player and a lot of what you've done is honestly what I think I'd have done as scum in your position (harddefending my partner because I have a meta of defending people, arguing with people who think I'm jester, setting up for a better lynch order). You seem to play like how I play as scum. I want to think that's playstyle but if you're literally unwilling to lynch ethos I have to assume the worst.

And I'm guessing that's because the jester thing was the only thing keeping me from voting N_M. It's one of those wagons that I was technically "on" early in that without jester I'd have been the first one to place that vote, and I think that's pretty clear.

[Mathdino]

Would you still have advocated to policy lynch Not_Mafia if you were scum?

Hadn't thought about that. Good q

I mean, in an (effectively) 8p Nightless game, it'd be pretty hard to win after D1 scumpartner lynch.

If I were scum and N_M was town, then yeah I'd definitely lynch N_M just because it'd reflect weirdly on me if I didn't. Keeping him alive is an anti-town thing in general, and Jay and I have several pieces of evidence for that.

If I were scum WITH N_M, I don't think that situation would've happened in the first place. N_M is capable of playing well when he tries, and I think he's also capable of emulating his towngame. I think I would've come up with a plan pre-game that would result in that me vs N_M situation never having to happen. By my own strategy, D1-D3 should be spent lynching those who aren't claiming jester, and D4-D5 should be spent lynching those who claimed/acted like jester and are still alive. Having N_M do the jester thing (as not-jester) and then having me act not-jester would really be a great way to get myself lynched D1-D3 and then get N_M immediately lynched D4.

I play scum in such a way that town-me wouldn't catch me, and I scumhunt in such a way that would catch scum-me. It's a weird equilibrium.



But now that I think about it, much more likely however is I would just replace out if I found I was scum with N_M since this isn't really a game I wanted to be in in the first place.

[Mathdino]

If I didn't what?

And because D2/D3 would likely wreck me on the "Mathdino is clearly not a jester" strategy. I'm low-key surprised I didn't get lynched on that and paranoia alone.

I'd like to think they would. I don't see evidence that N_M really strategises or takes initiative with his scumbuddies, but I feel like I would've had enough time pre-game to come up with something good.

Why would N_M act in such a way that forces his scumpartner to bus him, knowing full well who I am? (this is by the way also why I'm townreading Jay, although I don't think Jay would've strategised much)

ethos: I don't think N_M would've planned anything with ethos
you: were defending him anyway

Like I said, I think his jester strategy was specifically a way to dodge the me/Jay D1 policy lynch strategy that we promised for him at the end of our last game. Maybe it's self centred but I think he did it to taunt/mock me in particular.

[Mathdino]

If you didn't win.

Meh, having a good excuse for not winning isn't my style. I'd rather just not lose.

Tbh the more I think about the lolworthy scenario of me rolling scum with N_M (who is literally why I haven't joined a bunch of games), the more I think that the best thing for both of us would be to have me replace out so I wouldn't HAVE to bus him. I don't think I've ever hard-bussed as scum.

And if he was going that off the reservation in terms of not following whatever plan I come up with...

I'd have a MUCHHHH better excuse for replacing out (oh, uh, I'm in a Large, 2 minis, a micro, I'm modding a game and Team Mafia is coming up, and I joined this game as a stupid impulse decision) than I would have for losing (YEAH FUCK YOU NOT_MAFIA FOR MAKING ME LOSE says the sore loser).

[Mathdino]

Trolling is unethical though.

Idk what to tell you. I've, as scum, replaced out/modkilled myself before due to other players in the game. In a multiball game, some guy joined the game with his alt and started trolling me. I replaced out when he altslipped. On some Discord server I had a gamethrowing scum who didn't listen and fakeclaimed a cop guilty on me (while suggesting strongly that he wasn't playing to wincon) so I ended it.

As town I far prefer to just lynch the player in question. And if I get lynched for it, so be it. At least I did a good thing.

[Mathdino]

I'm surprised you'd do that?

Anyway this all depends on the reachy scenario that we rolled scum together, I came up with a winning strategy for the two of us, and he outright ignored it, while trolling me in the daythread and taunting me.

I think scum with ethos (they both just did whatever the fuck they wanted) makes a lot more sense.

Jay, thoughts on what's happening?

[Mathdino]

@Mod

: Request that you get to work on the flavour before we lynch again!!!!

[Mathdino]

So let's get on with it. I think ethos made his case. Personally I don't buy the "reaction test" thing and I see a lot of newbscum doubling back using the reaction test excuse. I think he just knew that pushing me was non-viable.

[Mathdino]

wait fuck

ok if SS doesn't townread you as strongly as I do, there's no reason politically for him to lynch ethos.

scum!SS can't lynch ethos because that fucks his LyLo.

town!SS is currently more paranoid of both of us than ethos (is my interpretation at least).

[Mathdino]

fuckkkkkkk

I really don't want to be in LyLo with you
but at least I can argue that I carried you to your first LyLo town win xD

VOTE: SS

We lynch here first, then ethos. I would legitimately like to end this game before my open starts and I really don't believe in extending a LyLo-esque 1v1 longer than it needs to be.

I hope I'm wrong and that SS is scum, but mod is online so we'll see soon anyway.

[Mathdino]

I switch back if SS comes online and plays ball, but this is the path of least resistance. Jingle confirmed to me he can flip soon if need be.

[Mathdino]

Maybe it's a holdover from earlier days. I picked up that tell from 2013/2014. There wasn't any breadcrumb or indication that his push on me was a reaction test.

I do actually think his self-vote was a gambit designed to look like a reaction test, but his initial push on me looked as serious as they come. That's what I don't like. I think he's encompassing EVERYTHING into the reaction test bucket. The self-vote thing ties it up in a bow.

Most of my arguments so far have been why ethos's behaviour is consistent with scum. Like his D1 behaviour is likely what would happen if he and N_M rolled scum together. My actual reasoning for why he IS scum is that his Assembaa hammer and D5 push of me were his ways to overcome his primary obstacles to get to LyLo. Finally, after all that didn't work, he finalises by buddying me/Jay and deflects onto you.

Edit: It's literally just me wanting to get this game over with. Whatever path to lynch ethos sooner is a good one in my mind. I've policy lynched people for not playing ball in endgame before, I don't really have a huge issue with it. Sometimes hits scum tbh.

Edit2: I'd like to hear that too actually

[Mathdino]

The "policy lynch people who won't help you" very nearly worked in Polygamist Mafia actually, which we just won

Not that I'm bragging or anything >.>

What works works.

[Mathdino]

If you're looking for "enough to stake my life on it", not THAT confident. Never that confident.

At the beginning of today I might've been willing to, but your behaviour today (especially your lack of confidence with what should be obvscum by PoE, along with the lowkey shade toward the Jay/me mutual townread) is actually exactly what's making me slightly less confident.

[Mathdino]

or SS tbh

[Mathdino]

SMH
literally the last time someone stalled the obvious "day before LyLo lynch" by deflecting onto me, they were scum
i'm getting flashbacks to a game i do not want to recreate
can we end this jay

Edit: jesus christ, you're clearly wanting the answer of "not lynch you"

[Mathdino]

Eth0s has asked to be lynched on at least three separate occasions.

complete misrep

the last time he asked to be lynched, it was a reaction test regardless of his alignment

he made very clear that he wanted you to be lynched afterward tho

Edit: it's not helping my paranoia

[Mathdino]

assuming we didn't just win

i'm gonna do a once-over on jay

i don't usually incorrectly succumb to paranoia

but when i do i'm right so XD

brb

[Mathdino]

LyLo Elsa at it again.

i swear to god jay if you fuck this up for us i'm never gonna let you live it down

[Mathdino]

you know honest to god on d3

before i poe'd heartless as certainly-not-jester

i heavily considered getting myself lynched

but then i realised

there is absolutely no way jay is winning this in endgame

[Mathdino]

hang on i'm gonna write a case so they don't fucking hate me if i get this wrong

part of me wishes there were 2 scum alive so i could pull my now famed lylo gambits

can't really gambit in 3p

[Mathdino]

fuck it cases are scummy

VOTE: Ethos

This is honestly your greatest game, Jay, and I'm give up all bragging rights to you for eternity if you're actually scum.

[Mathdino]

Jay please don't tell me I have to bow to you in future games

[Mathdino]

someone say something

[Mathdino]

EYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[Mathdino]

my towncred is officially fucked in every future game i play with elsajay

all i had to do was carry him to endgame

[Mathdino]

holy fucking shit i did not expect to win that at all

i never considered replacing out btw

part of me hates it when i use arguments like that cuz now i can never do it again

the "reachy" scenario is literally exactly what happened

[Mathdino]

ahahahaha

well done N_M

i'm still policy lynching you in every future game

but yeah well done

i was waffling so hard on whether to policy lynch N_M, i was sure i was gonna get strung up for that scummy as shit reason to jump on the wagon

[Mathdino]

Disagree

QFT

also i can't believe fucking not_mafia manipulated/trolled his own scumbuddy into a winning position

i was so pissed omg

[Mathdino]

jay in truth you were really just biased by having played with me before, and not having seen my scumgame
you trust me, basically

now you know

Edit: trudat
but i'm still counting it as one because 4v1 nightless is a legit setup
shut up and vote uses that setup

[Mathdino]

i probably would've scumread myself a few times back there, i in no way think i was playing my towngame

kinda just coasted for a while, figured it was already a surefire loss

but the quicklynches were amazing and suddenly jester's dead and i can start actually playing for a serious win

Edit: true but we did have associations to work with
associations that you correctly picked up on

[Mathdino]

yeah first game being scum is definitely a blow to anyone's playstyle

my advice is to just read up on getting better at scumhunting

you definitely have that potential but you also have an overwhelming bias toward OMGUS and trusting the players who act townish by default

my scumtell this game was that i was significantly more concerned with who was jester than who was scum

[Mathdino]

personally i was afraid ethos would come back and obvtown all over the place

i needed him lynched before he did

his entire play today was obvtown, he just shouldn't have self-voted because MS.net hates that

[Mathdino]

i agree that your playstyle differs wildly based on the playerlist
you're actually pretty easy to read for other reasons, it's not hard to figure out your motivation i think
even if you don't intend to have your wincon on your mind all the time, just reading it changes things

[Mathdino]

It's also called strategy. But if I saw that, I immediately would have hung Dino's spot before he could replace, and then we'd focus on NotMaf afterwards.

Dino does commitments, that much I know.

you also correctly caught my lie in terms of when i'd be willing to replace out of a game

1. Multiball game: I replaced out because someone replaced into the game specifically to troll me, then LITERALLY SAID THAT'S WHAT HE WAS DOING, then started personally attacking me, then altslipped as a main account that was also a confirmed troll. Mod refused to replace him, so I replaced out.

2. Discord game: Casual server. Scumpartner admitted that he would rather have his girlfriend (town) win than have to play with me (he didn't like me), so he claimed a cop guilty on me and got counterclaimed. I ended it because the players agreed that if he was gamethrowing, they'd rather restart.

Would never replace out just because I don't like my scumpartner. N_M was good.

[Mathdino]

disagree

ari was giving off major jester vibes the whole time

[Mathdino]

I powerlynched the people most likely to convince Jay out of his townread on me in the end tbh.

NK15: Smart dude, pretty obvtown.
Heartless: Strong as fuck players, I did not want them in here. (SORRY TTH!!!)
sheep: Knows my game, could easily have told you I'm playing weird as fuck.

Then I just barreled after whichever of ethos and SS opposed me more.

[Mathdino]

I was into that strategy!!! I totally called out Ari on the obv jesterisms.

I'm loling so hard reading back through this game.

The ironic thing is I think policy lynching Jay early on like sheep wanted would've won it. I have no doubt that a town of ethos/SS/Assembaa would've nailed me.

But the key is that N_M knew I would never let Jay get lynched.

[Mathdino]

although HI TTH! i thought you left the site (i did)

Hi! ^_^
I thought I was too since I don't really care for mafia anymore but I did miss playing mafia with Antihero so I said yes when he asked. I counted on the game moving a little slower, hate that I didn't even get to post. :\

You guys should queue up for Snowman's mini theme with me

Tbh if I were town I would've been like OH GOD TTH/ANTI SAVE ME FROM THE BULLSHIT THIS GAME

but sadly i was not town and i had to get rid of you