♥ ♠ Open 711: Stack The Deck - Game Over ♣ ♦

[Mathdino]

Vote Count 1-3

If you're playing a poker game and you look around the table and and can't tell who the sucker is, it's you.

Paul Newman

---

♥ legoboyvdlp (1)

: Srceenplay

♠ Srceenplay (2)

: skitter30, Montosh

♦ mutantdevle (2)

: legoboyvdlp, Almost50

♣ Almost50 (3)

: Espeonage, UnaBombaH, mutantdevle

♥ TheYankeeReaper (2)

: Not_Mafia, Elmo TeH AzN

♠ Not Voting (3)

: Creature, TheYankeeReaper, the worst

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2018-02-01 12:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- None.

[Srceenplay]

It sure looked like you where making a case to vote me but then you didn’t.

Pretty much, yes
I noted what I think is scummy, but I'm not certain just how scummy.

This was the PL.
Now it’s not. It’s a scum lynch.

[Srceenplay]

VOTE: Almost50

You don’t vote claimed BG day 1 no matter how much you think you scum read them.
You get a town lean for your bad Vote. Scum would never try that.

[Almost50]

VOTE: Almost50

You don’t vote claimed BG day 1 no matter how much you think you scum read them.
You get a town lean for your bad Vote. Scum would never try that.

Town lean for the bad vote?? Yeah, right! You're back to null yourself.

[Almost50]

Wait! No.. Srceen gets a SCUM LEAN for that post. If he's willing to give a Town lean on someone for a bad vote he isn't allowed to even push for a PL.

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: mutant

This is even more scummy than Una's since mutant did play me twice already (finished games).

1. This vote is OMGUS.
2. You haven't really mentioned a reason why Una's post was scummy other than that they are bad. So the fact that my post, in which I outline logical reasons as to why your claim is scummy, can be scummier makes literally no sense.
3. We have only played 1 game together, in which you were scum. (Unless I'm being completely stupid here).
4. I fail to see how the number of games we have played together would relate to how scummy my post looks anyway.
5. Instead of dodging my questions and ignoring my thoughts on you, how about you answer those questions and justify why you would crumb BG?

Bodyguards do not need to crumb; it is not an investigative role. Claiming bodyguard has no benefits to the town. The type of crumb you did is almost impossible to notice unless pointed out. This means the only purpose of it is to receive town cred at any time of your choosing. This is only done when you anticipate being scum read. You had no reason to think that if that post wasn't intended to be a traitor wink to your scum buddies.

[mutantdevle]

You don’t vote claimed BG day 1 no matter how much you think you scum read them.
You get a town lean for your bad Vote. Scum would never try that.

We'll lynch him tomorrow then.

And tbh, I think scum probably would try it if it looked likely to happen.

[Montosh]

On the Almost50 wagon, I feel like it being a traitor waving to the mafia might be a bit of a stretch. He'd been sort of jovial and joking around for most of the game up to that point. But what's with the BG claim/crumb? (which i assume refers to leaving "crumbs" in a past post to point to later). Like, you're not an info role, why do that?

[Elmo TeH AzN]

You don’t vote claimed BG day 1 no matter how much you think you scum read them.
You get a town lean for your bad Vote. Scum would never try that.

We'll lynch him tomorrow then.

And tbh, I think scum probably would try it if it looked likely to happen.

VOTE: Mutant

[Almost50]

@mutant: Crumbs (by definition) are NOT supposed to be easily noticed. That would be stupid. SOFT-CLAIMING though is supposed to be easy to notice, and I think that's what's confusing you, perhaps?


@mutant/Montosh: Why isn't it a valid move to crumb ANYTHING (even if I had rolled a VT)? A crumb is a crumb. It Is supposed to be a reference for later, but I don't get why you think only an investigative role should ever crumb! Crumbs are done to avoid Counterclaims towards the end of the game (if I had the chance to live that long).

And anyway, that's in the past now. I've fully and explicitly claimed already. Act upon the info you have now, not upon what could've been.

[mutantdevle]

@mutant: Crumbs (by definition) are NOT supposed to be easily noticed. That would be stupid. SOFT-CLAIMING though is supposed to be easy to notice, and I think that's what's confusing you, perhaps?


@mutant/Montosh: Why isn't it a valid move to crumb ANYTHING (even if I had rolled a VT)? A crumb is a crumb. It Is supposed to be a reference for later, but I don't get why you think only an investigative role should ever crumb! Crumbs are done to avoid Counterclaims towards the end of the game (if I had the chance to live that long).

Nothing is confusing me here. You claimed too early and your crumb was scummy. Had there been no crumb and you role claimed with a wagon on you then I would have believed you. But in its current state, your claim just screams desperate scum.

The only 2 reasons I would accept a crumb as legit (from town) are either to reveal additional information to the town if you are night killed or as proof of a gambit. This crumb was neither. You claim it was so that you could refute any counterclaim in the late game but I just don't buy that. It connects more dots in my mind that this would be a backup plan for if your traitor soft claim was pointed out by townies. There is something that would make me irrefutably believe you are the BG though. Have you ever done this kind of crumb before? My guess is that this is conveniently the first time you've made this kind of crumb.

[mutantdevle]

Also Elmo, one day you are going to stop voting for me over this kind of thing :3

[Almost50]

Had there been no crumb and you role claimed with a wagon on you then I would have believed you. But in its current state, your claim just screams desperate scum.

So, I'm "desperate" because "there's no wagon me"?? Explain how the claim works from a "desperate scum" when you ALSO acknowledge there has not been a wagon on me.

[Almost50]

@mutant: I don't care about your alignment right now (in this post), but you're assuming I play the same way as someone who had only joined the site 3 months ago (actually 2-3 days later than 3 months ago, but whatever). Look at my stats and tell me if Scum!me could ever be caught by Town!you (assuming you are Town ONLY for the sake of the argument) on D1.

My advice is this: IF you're Town, back off NOW (and save yourself the embarrassment). If you're Scum though, I'm not about to tell you how to improve your Scum play.

@Everyone: I want mutant lynched today. If he flips Mafia it is proof enough for me that Mafia actually DID recruit their Traitor already, so the RC can actually catch the "Goon" they are assigned to catch.

[Almost50]

Like, seriously now.. ANY of those who jumped on me claiming I was Traitor flipping Red should confirm they recruited their Traitor already and thus are not afraid to push on a Townie under the guise of them aiming for the Traitor. It's as simple as this.

[skitter30]

Reaper is not a PL.
The PL is who I’m voting now.
Espeonage I might be changing my mind on. I love let you know if I decide to swap them out.

a) Why do you want to insta-hammer reaper if it isn't a PL?

b) Why exactly did you want to PL lego again?

---

The post you referred to as being a Traitor claim was actually a BodyGuard strong crumb. Bad Guy, Bob Geldof, Brian Gleeson, Brad Garrett. Brad Garrett isn't even Irish to the best of my knowledge.

I almost believe this until:

VOTE: Almost50 - that BG-claim was always there as a backup-strat.
He is the traitor and tried to crumb it - trusting my gut here.

I feel like this is probably much more likely.

This almost reads like you were fine with A50's claim *until* Una objected to it, at which point you decided to hop onto that push as well.

Like what does 'until' mean? You wouldn't have had a problem with it if Una didn't say he thought he was a traitor?

Bodyguards do not need to crumb; it is not an investigative role. Claiming bodyguard has no benefits to the town. The type of crumb you did is almost impossible to notice unless pointed out. This means the only purpose of it is to receive town cred at any time of your choosing.

This is only done when you anticipate being scum read. You had no reason to think that if that post wasn't intended to be a traitor wink to your scum buddies.

So, are you arguing that only investigative roles can/should crumb? Like are you saying that if he did the exact same thing except claiming Goon Cop instead of BG you would have been fine accepting it? I don't understand why you're basing much of your argument on the fact that he's a BG and not some other (investigative) PR.

Like isn't that the whole point of a crumb - almost impossible to notice unless pointed out?

I don't really understand the bolded - you're arguing that he anticipated being scumread so he decided to crumb BG and at the same time crumb traitor? Like why make the traitor crumb at all just then which could easily backfire on him? Does this theory still hold if he was groupscum and not a traitor?

You don’t vote claimed BG day 1 no matter how much you think you scum read them.
You get a town lean for your bad Vote. Scum would never try that.

We'll lynch him tomorrow then.

And tbh, I think scum probably would try it if it looked likely to happen.

Why are you still voting him ...?

But in its current state, your claim just screams desperate scum.

I don't get it. Why is he

desperate

scum? Why was he so desperate at the time that he felt the need to set all of this up?

VOTE: Mutant

[mutantdevle]

Had there been no crumb and you role claimed with a wagon on you then I would have believed you. But in its current state, your claim just screams desperate scum.

So, I'm "desperate" because "there's no wagon me"?? Explain how the claim works from a "desperate scum" when you ALSO acknowledge there has not been a wagon on me.

There was no wagon on you when you made the crumb. A wagon had since started to build on you after it was pointed out that something you said in the post could be a traitor soft claim. That is my point. Obviously, the wagon has currently gone no further than that. If you truly are the BG, then the claim was a TERRIBLE idea. You clearly claimed just to shut down the building wagon which is one of the things that I consider as panicky rather than waiting until you were at L-2 or L-1 to claim which is a more rational thing to do. If this had occurred later in the day then perhaps your crumb would be more believable. Your crumb was a long-term plan to confirm yourself if needed but you have jumped the gun and used it in the short-term. It just doesn't add up to me.

@mutant: I don't care about your alignment right now (in this post), but you're assuming I play the same way as someone who had only joined the site 3 months ago (actually 2-3 days later than 3 months ago, but whatever). Look at my stats and tell me if Scum!me could ever be caught by Town!you (assuming you are Town ONLY for the sake of the argument) on D1.

I'm assuming the first part of this is a cheap shot at the amount of time I've been on this site? I've actually been playing mafia for 6-7 months now but my months before joining this site was spent on a site that only ever has 72 hours days and isn't taken too seriously which results in half the town lurking and only 3 pages worth of posts per game day. I'm still in adjustment from the culture there to here. I also do not believe registration time means much. You can nail it on your first game (my most sucessful game was actually my first ever one on that other site) and even the strongest of veterans can fail hard at times. Despite your impressive stats, you are not exempt from this. You've lost games in the past and you can certainly lose games and make mistakes again. So yes, there is every chance town me could catch scum you. I wouldn't exactly call this my catch though if you are scum. I didn't see the potential of your post being a traitor soft claim until it was pointed out and I believed your BG claim until someone pointed out the crumb could have been planted as a backup. Had neither of those things happened scum you would have fooled me easily. You also forget that I almost caught you last game. Had anyone but N_M made it to that 2v1 I would have been able to at least get a word in about why I thought you were the SK (even if some of the logic was wrong). We won't ever know if I'd be able to convince the other person of your guilt but the point is that I was thinking along the right lines. Of course, just because I was right then it doesn't mean I am right now. But it certainly refutes the idea that I am not good enough to see through you. As far as I am concerned with our last game, you did deserve the victory as you would have won anyway had there been no mod error and your kill on Fitz went through.

My advice is this: IF you're Town, back off NOW (and save yourself the embarrassment). If you're Scum though, I'm not about to tell you how to improve your Scum play.

You have no right to give me any advice on how to play until you have flipped or the game has ended. Until then, your words have no meaning. Sure if your town your words have meaning but for all I know you are scum trying to manipulate me. This is, after all, a game of manipulation. There will be no embarrasment if I am wrong. Everyone is wrong at times in this game. I've been wrong before. I'll be wrong again. And if I am wrong now, then I appologise. But until you give me reason to believe I am wrong, I am not going to assume I am wrong. I'd appreciate it if, instead of insulting my play, you focused more on refuting my points and showing me how I am wrong rather than telling me I am wrong. Because that way, I am prepared to listen.

@Everyone: I want mutant lynched today. If he flips Mafia it is proof enough for me that Mafia actually DID recruit their Traitor already, so the RC can actually catch the "Goon" they are assigned to catch.

You probably don't believe this but I'm not going to flip scum. You, at the very least, have to think about what that would mean. You'd have to lead the town to lynch the other 2 that are on your wagon in search of proof for this theory. If you do get me lynched, I reccomend not doing that and instead going after people you think are legitamately scummy rather than OMGUSing the people that are hesistant to believe your claim. If the people you scum read are also currently on your wagon then that's just a bonus.

so the RC can actually catch the "Goon" they are assigned to catch.

RC? As in Role Cop? You mean Goon Cop (GC) right?

[the worst]

A50's reactions stink but I agree there is an opportunistic feel about the reactions (particularly Mutant).
Is it common for BP townies to claim D1 outside of the Matrix6 newbie setup?

[Almost50]

RC? As in Role Cop? You mean Goon Cop (GC) right?

Yeppers. My bad.

As for you being wrong, how am I supposed to convince you? You say the crumb was a long-term plan and I say it wasn't. All you need to do is wait until I flip to know you're wrong.

And YES, everybody's can be wrong, but not everybody is so naive at it. You acknowledge I'm good at being Scum (good enough o have deserved the win as the lone SK), but you're accusing me of making a BASIC mistake in my play. Why would I ever signal myself out to my proposed team if I wasn't even suspected before that point? You have it all backwards. If I was a Traitor I would have waited to see if a wagon ever formed on me before I tried to wave my hand on my friends to help me out. Otherwise, I would have just stayed put. The Traitor -after all- has a 1-shot BP, so it's not like my proposed Scum team could accidentally kill me.

But GOOD JOB at making me second guess my SR on you.

P.S. You appear to be right on us having played only once together before, although -for some odd reason- I always thought we played in a Newbie together, but the search says otherwise! *Shrug*

[Espeonage]

@mutant: I don't care about your alignment right now (in this post), but you're assuming I play the same way as someone who had only joined the site 3 months ago (actually 2-3 days later than 3 months ago, but whatever). Look at my stats and tell me if Scum!me could ever be caught by Town!you (assuming you are Town ONLY for the sake of the argument) on D1.

My advice is this: IF you're Town, back off NOW (and save yourself the embarrassment). If you're Scum though, I'm not about to tell you how to improve your Scum play.

@Everyone: I want mutant lynched today. If he flips Mafia it is proof enough for me that Mafia actually DID recruit their Traitor already, so the RC can actually catch the "Goon" they are assigned to catch.

This is a real bad superiority complex and even if you strip all the role related stuff away a50 looks terrible.

He is flailing all over the place, picking and choosing which parts of the wagon on him to go for and settling on the perceived weakest for no apparent reason.

Also mutant is completely correct in that a bg shouldn't need to claim. Their job is to be abrasive stir the pot and then die trying to make their death useful. So I get it.

However a50 was ver brazen to claim a pr that early plus there's no couner claim.

I completely disagree with the assessment scum would pick abilities. I would take daychat maybe depending on who I was with. Otherwise none of it is worth it tbh.

[Not_Mafia]

That's just how A50 plays

[mutantdevle]

Like what does 'until' mean? You wouldn't have had a problem with it if Una didn't say he thought he was a traitor?

Correct. I believed the BG claim until the idea that the crumb was set as a backup for if his traitor soft claim was too obvious was put into my head. From there, I thought about that idea and it made more sense to me.

So, are you arguing that only investigative roles can/should crumb? Like are you saying that if he did the exact same thing except claiming Goon Cop instead of BG you would have been fine accepting it?

I wouldn't be okay with it in this context. He wouldn't be crumbing his results, he'd be crumbing his role. Crumbing a role doesn't make sense to me unless you expect to have to role claim. There was nothing at the time that would suggest that he would need to do this. Hence, the crumb makes no sense to me as it was unwarrented.

I don't really understand the bolded - you're arguing that he anticipated being scumread so he decided to crumb BG and at the same time crumb traitor? Like why make the traitor crumb at all just then which could easily backfire on him? Does this theory still hold if he was groupscum and not a traitor?

Of course the theory wouldn't hold any ground if he was group scum. But if we knew he was group scum then we need not have this discussion :P What I'm arguing is that Almost is the traitor. As a result, he soft claimed the idea that he was a "bad guy" in the hopes the group scum would pick up on it. However, he knew there was a chance that town members would pick up on it and argue that he was the traitor. So, to counteract that, he also crumbed BG so that he could claim that if he needed to.

Why are you still voting him ...?

Because I am under the impression he is the traitor. Just because scum would join the wagon if they knew he was town doesn't mean I can't join the wagon if I think he is scum.

I don't get it. Why is he desperate scum? Why was he so desperate at the time that he felt the need to set all of this up?

The way I am phrasing it probably isn't the best way to be honest and I'm probably overusing the word desperate. He wasn't desperate at the time he set this up. But if he is indeed scum, then it means his backup plan to claim BG has failed (at least it has in regards to those of us on his wagon). Panicky or nervous would probably be a better word than desperate tbh. His reactions to both my own and Una's accusations feels like he's not too sure what to do. His vote on me is pure OMGUS and based on nothing more than his belief that I am wrong (which would be his belief as either allignment). In general, he is coming across as caught and trying to find a way out.

As for you being wrong, how am I supposed to convince you? You say the crumb was a long-term plan and I say it wasn't. All you need to do is wait until I flip to know you're wrong.

And YES, everybody's can be wrong, but not everybody is so naive at it. You acknowledge I'm good at being Scum (good enough o have deserved the win as the lone SK), but you're accusing me of making a BASIC mistake in my play. Why would I ever signal myself out to my proposed team if I wasn't even suspected before that point? You have it all backwards. If I was a Traitor I would have waited to see if a wagon ever formed on me before I tried to wave my hand on my friends to help me out. Otherwise, I would have just stayed put. The Traitor -after all- has a 1-shot BP, so it's not like my proposed Scum team could accidentally kill me.

But GOOD JOB at making me second guess my SR on you.

When it comes to convincing me, I'm not too sure what you can do. That's kinda your problem :3 It might not be a case of convincing me that your innocent but rather convincing me to vote someone scummier (since there's the possibility you're a PR that doesn't strike me as too hard). I'm not willing to let you live past day 3 though unless something major happens that makes you confirmed town during that time. As for the basic mistake, basic mistakes are the most common mistakes that professionals make. Correct!me would mean that you felt confident in your backup BG claim and expected that to work (and hence explains your shakey actions in your surprise that it didn't for at least 2 of us).




Just to clarify something, is this style of claim and crumbing common on this site? I have only ever seen it done twice (once on this site, once on the other I used to play) and on both occasions the crumb was by caught scum. So I'm not sure if I'm being anecdotally biased here.

[Not_Mafia]

tl;dr

[Almost50]

A50's reactions stink but I agree there is an opportunistic feel about the reactions (particularly Mutant).
Is it common for BP townies to claim D1 outside of the Matrix6 newbie setup?

If you're looking for what's "common" you can write me off as the exception in 99% of the situations.

It is common FOR ME to crumb or even CLAIM on D1 when I deem it appropriate. And when I crumb I do it in such mysterious ways that ARE hard to detect unless I myself point them out.

Here, have some example:

If you are mason, don't claim because scum have daykill and if they target a non-mason, they die.

OK. I claim a Mason.

THIS was an explicit claim (true claim) on D1 in a recent game

P.S. I feel it;s going to be impossible to fake anything and get it past The Wood Cutters. Between them 3 they have seen almost everything I'm capable of, so I'm going to come clean: We're just a mere VT

~A50

And here's another (claiming as a VANILLA TOWNIE on D1)

And as for cryptic crumbs, have one on me (highlighted the relevant parts):

As you may have all noticed; I'm EXTREMELY

ODD

(and I feel like demonstrating it right now). My playstyle would probably come across as scummy (especially to those who never played with me before), a bit weird (to those who have some limited experience with me still), but those who know me well either love me all the way or hate me all the way. No compromises here.

C

ome

o

n,

P

eople. Why are we taking this long to get a lynch and a flip.

(Err.. flop? FLIP! Whatever! Am I acting odd enough yet?)

And even followed that with this:

OMG!

I can't even

.. OMG! She LOVES ME. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH

(Obviously crumbing Odd Night Cop)

Do you want more? I also fake claimed as Town (I was one of 3 Town Vigs in a closed setup with 10 factions, 4 of which were Town and 3 were Town friendly 3P, so I faked PGO) Here's the link for that game (can't be bothered to ISO myself to find where I claimed, but it was on D1).

Obviously, I canNOT fake claim in an open setup (or it might draw a CC and hurt the Town), so this is NOT a fake claim here.

[mutantdevle]

That’s how you do the convincing thing.

UNVOTE:

Time to sleep and then go to work for a full day. I’ll be back in 18-20 hours.