Site Meta Thread

[LicketyQuickety]

TL;DR

Contrary idea of the day: Playing as Town is about producing content. That's the bottom line. The more Town that does that, the better Town's chances of winning.

I should prolly see myself out at this point...

[addendum] Not all content is created equally and some "content" barely passes as saying hi. Also, Too much content can be bad for a game. I've seen this happen, tho IDK if this was the result of Town actually losing.

[LicketyQuickety]

There's no mafia "sandbox" or "practice" mode

I disagree the Normal and Open games are basically a practice mode.

Those are my fav because I kinda sorta know what to expect (at least with open games). These theme games nowadays kinda suck IMO.

the TL;DR is that I don't trust reviewers unless they know what they are doing. I've played more than one bastard game that was just shit and totally and utterly unpredictable in any sense of the the word. I've ran into Normal games like this as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

The only way to win in

Road to Rome

is to join a different queue.

Curious what exactly you think this means.

[LicketyQuickety]

most of my actions in mafia games tend to be motivated by my own personal enjoyment, not based on me trying to achieve win com so I think it’s hard to determine alignment based on something like that

Eh, I think just knowing your wincon can subconciously make changes to how you post.

This.

[LicketyQuickety]

Playing to win is only enforced in the loosest sense.

This is also true, but I am pretty sure we have different interpretations of how that might look.

[LicketyQuickety]

Content is this:

[LicketyQuickety]

Contrary idea of the day: Playing as Town is about producing content. That's the bottom line. The more Town that does that, the better Town's chances of winning.

I don't think this thread ever even touched on this?

I think it did. I'm either:

1. Stupid
   
2. A Lunatic
   
3. Right

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm all 3

The Triple Trifecta.

[LicketyQuickety]

IMO, there is really nothing that says I should have the record that I do as Town other than the fact that I talk about shit that doesn't normally get brought up and that is exactly what content is. I am not a great Scumhunter, I don't have great reads, I can't push a lynch to save my life, I have zero charisma, and I get lynched a lot as either alignment. It's the only explanation that because I am sorta crazy and talk about things that don't normally get brought up is the only thing that gives me the Town record that I have.

[LicketyQuickety]

IMO, there is really nothing that says I should have the record that I do as Town other than the fact that I talk about shit that doesn't normally get brought up and that is exactly what content is. I am not a great Scumhunter, I don't have great reads, I can't push a lynch to save my life, I have zero charisma, and I get lynched a lot as either alignment. It's the only explanation that because I am sorta crazy and talk about things that don't normally get brought up is the only thing that gives me the Town record that I have.

... or luck ?

Possible, which is part of the reason I got a new username/account.

But I have over 80 games recorded. That's an awful lot of luck if that's all it is.

[LicketyQuickety]

I also am one of the top Newbie players if you look at smiths data, and I am a damn good Town player if you look are Realeo's ELO data.

[LicketyQuickety]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70727

viewtopic.php?p=8640184#p8640184

Proof.

[LicketyQuickety]

This also:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1913048394

I was roughly in the top 3% of Town players, but you have to go to the 2016-Q4 to see this.

[LicketyQuickety]

I also am one of the top Newbie players if you look at smiths data, and I am a damn good Town player if you look are Realeo's ELO data.

I agree with this

Spoiler:

also because that makes my wolf win look even better

Yeah, and guess how many "Normal" (and yeah, the quotations do imply sarcasm) games I have won on this site as Town? A: 0
My guess on this (and it is a guess at this point) is that it has to do with the way I approach the game as a whole. My whole emphasis is on Scumhunting instead of an overreliance on PR to solve the game..
Far too often the way people approach these game is that they feel they don't actually have to do much in the way of real Scumhunting because they know the PR's are going to pick up the slack for them. So this leaves us with much less of what I would call content in these game than what should be there. And that's my reason for why winrates for so many categories on this site suck - because people have completely forgotten what Scumhunting actually is.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think that while PRs are trending towards oversaturation, they're symptomatic of poor day play and not the origin of it.

People are nothing if not adaptable.

[LicketyQuickety]

i cope every day with overwhelming insecurity

As do I only with anxiety instead of insecurity.

#themoreyouknow

[LicketyQuickety]

Motivation reading is definitely a specific tool, and it's probably the tool I use the most. It's also a way of looking at the game in general, but as a tool (at least the way I use it) it's basically a way of looking at a statement or a post or an action, considering each possible alignment's potential motivation for making that post, and then considering which of those motivations is most likely to have existed in the first place. A similar process can be used in thinking about the line of reasoning that that person would have had to have in order to make that post. It's sort of Bayesian in nature; the probability that someone is a given alignment given that they made a given post should be correlated with the probability that they would make that post given that they are that alignment. It's useful, especially in conjunction with some light meta, for getting reads off of things that a person may not have had any motivation to say as one alignment, or that may have required a thought process to happen as one alignment that is just unlikely.

It's not a be-all end-all as mastina says but it's pretty close.

Also in the interest of stating a likely unpopular opinion: I think that meta reads off of a single game can be

extremely

powerful in the right situation if you are very careful with them. Particularly when the game you're meta-ing off of was a recent scumgame and where you think the player in question is town in the game you're playing.

I agree with most of this 100%. Completely correct about the line of reasoning and whether it comes from Town or Scum. This is often what I try and push in a Mafia game: I look for things that don't makes sense based on what I know of that players ability (which if I am playing with them for the first time, this is an ongoing process until a certain point and I can conclude what their playing ability is), what their assertion is, what their reasoning for their assertion is, and whether it is of sound logic. I have noticed that Scum more often make mistakes in reasoning much more often than Town. This is not the same thing as motive. There are times when Town do stupid things like vote themselves. That's where knowing your player comes in. If you know them to be a loose cannon, then them voting themselves as Town makes sense - especially if they are a new(er) player.

So I think that using meta has different uses from person to person. Some people just use it as a guid to tell how smart the person they are dealing with is, while other people look for very specific things within that players meta that can be a high confidence read based on the specificity of what they are looking at. There is ofc a lot of grey area in this and some people mix and match or use a bit of both.

[LicketyQuickety]

how often does doing this motivation stuff get you a wrong townread.

IDK who you are asking, but generally my Town reads are pretty good but my Scum reads are not very good.

[LicketyQuickety]

whats "pretty good" for town reads.

like 77% accuracy is just around random.

I usually do tiers.

Tier one is generally much more accurate than not, even D1. Generally there are only like 2-3 people there tho.
Tier two is right more often than not.
Usually you find the Scum in my Null and lower lists.

Ex: viewtopic.php?p=9689644#p9689644

[LicketyQuickety]

you should actually measure the "more often than not" to see how much better than random you are .

I think most people are kinda vague and just judge their read accuracy by feel after games.

I suppose I can start doing that since I have new account/username/wiki now.

[LicketyQuickety]

like 77% accuracy is just around random.

How is 77% accuracy about random?

[LicketyQuickety]

i lied and meant 75

assuming 10-3 is standard and you're town and randomly pick someone not you d1 and call them town you're right 9/12 so.

obviously when you're measuring this stuff you have to adjust for how many ppl alive and also ic's and confirmed roles/innocents/guilties since latter two aren't really reads anymore.

It makes sense to me that in a 10:3 game D1 random chance for TRs is 66.67%. Why is it 75% and not 2/3 chance?

[LicketyQuickety]

Okay so you know for a fact that you are town

that leaves 9 possible town picks and 3 possible scum picks to a total of 12 picks

so 9/12 of people are town
3/12 of people are scum.

I think you're mixing up the math and doing 6 town 3 scum

Yeah, and this demonstrate that I am not that smart either, because I did the math wrong and did 3/9 instead of 3/12. So I really have no idea why I have such a good record as Town (or Scum for that matter). Like, it would makes sense if I had some crazy high IQ and that is why my craziness works in games. But I don't actually have that high of an IQ. I think I top out at like 115 max, but it's prolly closer to between 105-110.

My point is that it's because I bring content to the game and do things that get stuff talked about. IDK why I have this ability, it's weird and I don't understand it. But there is too much evidence that says that I am a good Town player to ignore. Me bringing content to the game is really the only explanation.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also I think that it's less content and amount of it you produce and more that you're resistant to town getting set in its ways and you stubbornly bring up whatever direction you're currently in. And yeah that gets you mislynched but I think it helps prevent town from getting complacent which is one of the big killers of towns imo. Being rarely NKed wouldn't hurt you either.

I think "being resistant to Town getting set in its ways and challenging the status quo" and content are not mutually exclusive. Take a look at your own game. Why do you think you have the record that you do? Are you a great Scumhunter, do you have great reads, can you push a lynch, do you have charisma, do you get lynched a lot as either alignment? More precisely, do you feel you add things to the game that if you were not in the game would get overlooked?

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think they are mutually exclusive: but I think that the specifically status quo upsetting way that you tend to play is more important than the content that you provide.
I think in a large part we can be thinking of the same thing but posting it differently because obviously when you post something new that goes against town that's posting content.
But there's a lot of people that post content who sort of follow the grain of the game in a bad way.

I mean I can say a lot about why I think that I'm good but I'm not sure who that benefits here.

Obviously, I am not looking for a brag list. I am looking for what the essence or dominant characteristic is for the reason that people succeed as Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.

You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.

You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.

Scum can bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there as well. What makes a good town player is bringing content and then explaining that content and having it correlate to town motivations. I don't mean meta town motivations. I mean town motivation particular to that game.

No offence, but I prolly am not going to take much of what you say seriously because of your sig.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.

You should look up how statistics are formed for psychometric psychology traits. For example, if I want to measure what makes a person high or low on the Extrovert scale, I am going to ask them questions like "do you feel happier when you are around people?" or "When you go to a party, do you typically talk with a lot of people or just a few close friends?" You repeat these kinds of questions, and they are all a little different, but they all really are measuring the same thing, because if someone says yes to one of them, then they are likely going to say yes on most of them.

Basically, if you have two things that are very closely correlated, then they both really mean the same thing. So then you have to find out what those things have in common because they are really measuring the same thing. With this, we are looking at what makes a good Town player. Given there are many different playstyles out there, this means that there must be a defining characteristic into what makes a player good at playing Town. And that is what I think I have figured out. It's that they bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there.

Scum can bring content to the game that would otherwise not be there as well. What makes a good town player is bringing content and then explaining that content and having it correlate to town motivations. I don't mean meta town motivations. I mean town motivation particular to that game.

No offence, but I prolly am not going to take much of what you say seriously because of your sig.

Well if you don't also possess a degree in bullshit in order to determine whether I am serious or not, I completely understand your position. Of course you could be referring to ASSLUST but we all have our unsupported statements don't we?

I wasn't keyed into the buzzwords people are using these days so I didn't even notice that. Apologies.

[LicketyQuickety]

It occurs to me that getting a single TR correct is very well 1/12, but this is compounded the more reads you make. So if you make a readslist of everyone and get like 2/3 correct, you are actually doing pretty good.

[LicketyQuickety]

It occurs to me that getting a single TR correct is very well 1/12

it's 9/12

Whatever. what I meant is that the chance compounds and gets smaller the more guesses you make.

[LicketyQuickety]

you realize 2/3 right on a readslist for everyone isn't necessarily good right

for 12 player with 9/3 distribution and assuming you assign everyone T or S, the possibilites are then that you're right on 1 and wrong on 2 (if declaring 3 scum), that you have all the scum on your 'scumlist' but you're calling 7 people scum, that you have 2 scum right out of a list of 5 and have the last one as town, or you have 1 scumread and it's wrong.

Right, but is it bad? If every Town member get's 2/3 wrong, what are Town's chances of winning if they all decide to lynch the people they agree are Scum?

[LicketyQuickety]

Scum input and manipulation of gamestate means the lynch is not determined by whoever town agrees is scum.

Plus I assume it would be approximately equivalent to random lynch statistics.

How manipulative Scum is is dependent on how well Scum actually play. When we are talking about static variables, there isn't really room for random variables.

[LicketyQuickety]

challenging the status quo

Frankly how dare you.

How dare I what?

[LicketyQuickety]

challenge thestatusquo

Oh, LOL, didn't even notice that. Sorry.

[LicketyQuickety]

challenge thestatusquo

Oh, LOL, didn't even notice that. Sorry.

i forgive you

Thanks, that means a lot... SMH.

[LicketyQuickety]

reminder.
Meta is not trash.
meta based communities make town win.

Towns lose here because we get a lot more newer users and replacements are a lot more common.

Would like to know how you figured this... As far as I can see, meta is not a causality to a good Town game for a site. I would like to hear your reasoning on this.