Mini 579 - The Plagues of Egypt Mafia - Over

[Mr Stoofer]

I hate no-reveal games

Since I can't vote for the Mod, I'll

vote: lord_hur

.

[Mr Stoofer]

The following quotes make me think that lord_hur knows more about this setup than the rest of us (or at least: more than me).

Well, I have the feeling, because of this rule and this food system, which implies that there are several types, that this will be a very complicated game

No pity for us newbies

Also, with 10 plagues (so I assume, 10 nights) and 12 players, the probability of at least one resurrect role is pretty strong.

I wonder how our lunch will come into play? Maybe "XXX is dead and there are pancakes everywhere!" I just picked pancakes at random, it isn't mine, who has pancakes for lunch, anyways?

I was thinking about a poisoner role, who can poison one type of food, maybe with a delay on the death.

[Mr Stoofer]

FoS:Mr Stoofer

for trying to add more weight to an already suspicion laden person. Not that there is anything wrong with that if the suspicion is merited...

unvote: lord_hur
vote: thevampireofdussledorf

You gave lord_hur a "HoS" back in post 19, so you obviously think he is suspicious, but when I express suspicion of him, that earns me a "FoS".

Also, why is my suspicion not merited?

[Mr Stoofer]

Please answer my question.

[Mr Stoofer]

They are the same thing. For people who use "HoS", it is supposed to be more serious than a "FoS". But I think "HoS" is stupid.

[Mr Stoofer]

What on earth do you mean "overburdening of him"? What am I supposed to do if I see a player who is behaving suspiciously? Keep quiet about it. What is more, nobody had made the point which I had made so it would have been anti-Town for me not to have mentioned it.

I ask you again: tell me - yes or no - was my suspicion merited?

[Mr Stoofer]

Please tell me what gives you the *exclusive* right to questioning people ?

Nothing at all. Anyone can question anyone, as far as I am concerned. I'll answer any questions you have.

I don't understand where you got the idea that I claimed the *exclusive* right to question people.

Okay, I think the reason Mr Stoofer thinks I know more than him about the setup if that there is extra info in undo's introductory post in the queue thread, including the reference to 10 plagues. So I was thinking maybe he didn't read it.

I read the opening post. But I saw no warrant for a resurrection role, or a poisoner. Nor for your assumption that we are going to have a different plague every night.

[Mr Stoofer]

Well I am very happy with my vote at the moment. TVoD's early posting looked like he was firing out any old accusation's he could to see if something stuck, without any serious attempt to think about whether his accusations had any merit. Now post 83 looks to me like he is just picking up the best bandwagon he can manage, without any conviction at all. His tone just doesn't convince me that he has any belief in any of his accusations.

Anyways my second suspect at the moment is Mr Stoofer, whom hasn't posted in a while I do believe. And I think somewhere back in the thread there was a question for him.

What question? And when are you going to answer my question?

[Mr Stoofer]

I believe you asked this three times....

I ask you again: tell me - yes or no - was my suspicion merited?

Which I answered eventualy

Yes and No, I viewed the timing of the post its lay out and tone all to decide if I found it suspicious. Suspicion can be merited but the person placing that suspicion can also be suspicious.

Yes and No is not an answer. Either you thought I was making a good point or you did not. You can't have it both ways.

Now that post of yours in particular I made some coments on which you seem to have not bothered to deem worth talking about. So I will have to re do this.

The following quotes make me think that lord_hur knows more about this setup than the rest of us (or at least: more than me).

Can you please explain what you ment by this comment as both I and lord_hur have interpreted it and perhaps it would be nice to get the view of the author.

What I meant was this: Scum inevitabley know more about the game than the Town. They are the

informed

minority. And they often cannot stop themselves from showing how clever they are by successfully "guessing" aspects of the setup. As JEEP said in the wiki:

Mafia generally have more information than other players, so whoever picks up on tells/hints easiest is more likely to be mafia

.
Perhaps the most significant thing in lord_hur's post was his statement that we were going to have 10 plagues in 10 nights. That is not something which I got from reading undo's posts and made me think that he knew more about the setup.

[Mr Stoofer]

Re: Guardian's post 92: I agree that hasdgfas has been rather light on the contributions, even though he has a number of posts; but if this is an accusation of "lurking in plain sight" then I think 4 posts is too small a sample.

However, more significantly, this post will look

very interesting indeed

if thevampireofdussledorf comes up as Scum...

[Mr Stoofer]

I think I am just going to start ignoring what thevampireofdussledorf says for now because he is talking such nonsense. The point about lord_hur seeming to have more information was one which no-one had made before I did. Whether it was right or wrong it was clearly a good point to make. I have asked thevampireofdussledorf to explain why I merited a FOS, and whether he thought my point was a good one or not, but his responses have been incomprehensible.

My vote stands.

[Mr Stoofer]

Also, I want to put the following point on the record:

If we do not lynch thevampireofdussledorf today, we should lynch SlySly.

[Mr Stoofer]

@Mr Stoofer : do you still think I know more than you ? Also, you said something that leads me to think you know more about the setup than me : you only said that scum would know more than the others, but why do you seem to be thinking that eventual town special roles do not know more than vanillas ? Why did you only associate my alleged superior knowledge with scum ?

Now that you have discussed your speculations, I think that they are so way off target (e.g. 12 plagues = 12 nights) that I no longer think that they are based on "extra" information. I tend to believe you when you say you were merely guessing. If your guesses turn out to be accurate, however, then you can expect me to be very suspicious. But at present I see it as highly unlikely that your guesses are right.

I am not sure that I understand your second/third questions. Generally, giving away extra information is a Scum tell, rather than a Power-Role tell (did you look at the wiki link?). That's because Scum are super keen to appear helpful, while Power-Roles tend to want to stay hidden. That is why I normally ascribe extra knowledge of the setup to scum, when it comes out day 1. But you make a fair point -- pro-Town Power-Roles may also be able to work out the setup more easily.

[Mr Stoofer]

@all experienced players : does the fact that kabenon007 died first night give us any hint on his scummyness? (never faced night 0's myself)

No it doesn't. Assuming that he was killed by Scum, it just means that the Scum picked him out for a kill. Some Scum try to target experienced players/good scum hunters because they are the most dangerous foes; others target Newbies because they are unlikely to get Doc protection Night 1; while others kill players against whom they have a grudge.



Also:

gibberish

[Mr Stoofer]

tvod, I hope you are scum because then my comment would be very interesting indeed.

It's not rocket science Guardian. We were in the middle of a discussion about tvod, when out of nowhere you built a very confident case on hasdgfas based on (IMHO) not very much. It just struck me when I read that post that it could be an attempt to divert attention away from the growing tvod wagon (especially since I think tvod is scum). So if tvod turns up as scum, then that is what I will think.

Of course, phrases such as "tvod turns up as scum" kinda assumes we will find out his alignment if/when we lynch him

[Mr Stoofer]

Yes, that was my point.

[Mr Stoofer]

My post 127 was directed at lord_hur's post 125.

[Mr Stoofer]

Someone's hunch is without merit. Pretty much been on unexpected V\LA, will contribute more soon after a read through.

I interpreted that to mean that you were going to do a read through now. If not, then I think we should just have you replaced, or lynch you, now.

[Mr Stoofer]

So from what I have gathered Mr Stoofer added a rather pointless comment to the anti lord_hur movement and then was overly interested in if his suspicions seemed merited in my eyes.

Hmm, SlySly raised this point too; I'd like to see Mr Stoofer's answer about it.

My point about lord_hur was not pointless.

It was a point that nobody else had mentioned before

. That is why tvod's FOS of me was so stupid. I agree that merely repeating points someone else has made is sometimes a scum tell, but my point was

brand new

. That is why I got so annoyed with tvod.

[Mr Stoofer]

Well, it seems the mod has decided to show us that he will give more info about the dead in the future. Look at post 0 now.

I've looked and I didn't see what you are referring to...

[Mr Stoofer]

My new point was that lord_hur appeared to have more information than anyone else. That is a known scum tell.

It was "new", because nobody had said that before.

Is that clear enough for you?

[Mr Stoofer]

I admire your attempts to reason with thevampireofdussledorf. Personally, I don't have the strength.

[Mr Stoofer]

@Mr. Stoofer

How is it a scum tell that lord_hur appeared to have more information about the setup than others? I totally disagree with your statement about this topic in Post 152. In fact, I get the feeling that your statement is a scum tactic trying to get lord_hur to reveal more about his role to your scumminess.

Let me drum up a hypothetical for you...

Let's say lord_hur's role is Bugs Bunny and Bugs Bunny is a power role of the town that has night actions. Wouldn't lord_hur's role give him more information about the setup of the game than some of the other players in the game without lord_hur being scummy for having such role information?

Would he not know that Bugs Bunny existed where the rest of us didn't?

I'm sorry, I don't find having that kind of info as scummy.

I can see you don't agree with the point, but it is a recognised scum tell that Mafia tend to know more about what is going on, and tend to be able to work things out, more easily that the Town.

Click here to read "Rules for Finding Mafia", written by JEEP, whom I think everyone would agree is one of the best Scumhunters that ever lived. He said:

Mafia generally have more information than other players, so whoever picks up on tells/hints easiest is more likely to be mafia (+10%). There are some notable exceptions. Experience and skill should be taken into consideration.

Now of course this not a cast iron rule, no-one suggests that it is. I even said so myself:

Generally, giving away extra information is a Scum tell, rather than a Power-Role tell (did you look at the wiki link?). That's because Scum are super keen to appear helpful, while Power-Roles tend to want to stay hidden. That is why I normally ascribe extra knowledge of the setup to scum, when it comes out day 1. But you make a fair point --

pro-Town Power-Roles may also be able to work out the setup more easily

.

So by all means disagree with me and JEEP, but what I pointed out was a recognised scum tell.

[Mr Stoofer]

Also, I want to put the following point on the record:

If we do not lynch thevampireofdussledorf today, we should lynch SlySly.

Why?

Are you sure you want me to say this? Really?

[Mr Stoofer]

What I mean, Guardian, is that I don't think that it is a good idea but I will explain if you (and only you) absolutely insist.

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer, I don't insist.

unvote; vote: Mr Stoofer

I actually agree with the overburdening. lord_hur seems honest to me. I'm also really not buying tvod suspicion atm, and no one likes my thoughts on cow..

Guardian , are you voting for me for agreeing with you on SlySly, or for "overburdening" (bearing in mind I accepted I was wrong about lord_hur ages and ages ago?)

[Mr Stoofer]

I've just done a read through on everyone and one thing leaped out at me that I hadn't spotted before, namely the fact that hasdgfas is posting regularly elsewhere on the site but hasn't posted here for 3 days. In my book that is more than enough to warrant

unvote; vote:hasdgfas

.

I still think thevampireofdussledorf has to die, though (if he is not scum he doesn't deserve to live).

[Mr Stoofer]

Just for my information, is it "overburdening" every time I make a point about someone who is already under some suspicion? If so, then we are never ever going to lynch anyone, are we?

[Mr Stoofer]

The why not a vote?

[Mr Stoofer]

Let me be clear: the overburdening doesn't bother me as much (I am using the term because you used it), it is that it doesn't seem to be a reasonable interpretation that the guy knows or knew more about the setup than anyone else. it seemed like innocent speculation to me.

You realise that I changed my mind about lord_hur, and agreed it was innocent speculation, about 5 pages ago?

[Mr Stoofer]

Well, I just wanted to make sure you knew, and that you weren't voting for me under a misapprehension. (Although to be honest I'd rather you weren't voting for me at all.)

@SlySly: you have understood my post about tvod correctly. But it is not anti-Town to want to kill a player who is hurting the town regardless of their alignment. Click here for a thread where lots of people express the view that killing players who are hurting the Town is a good idea regardless of their alignment. See posts 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 15, 20, 21 -- all of which agree with me that sometime you have to have a lynch of the player that is not helping the Town. See especially 20 and 21, made by me before I got my role PM in this game.

[Mr Stoofer]

Like I said, I was not thinking that at the time I posted it, but I do now remember you saying you were wrong; however, how does that change anything?

stoofer, could you have a shot at answering this again? like, what are the differences in what I should be thinking if I did know vs. if I didn't? Why is it significant my analysis that I knew you took it bacK?

What I meant was this: there is a big difference between (a) making a point about another player, listening to the guy's defence, thinking about it, and then saying "OK, I don't think my point was a good one"; and (b) making a point about another player and sticking to your guns even when it becomes clear that you are wrong.

Case (b) is well worth a vote (even a lynch on Day 1) while case (a) is much less lynch-worthy. So I wanted to make sure you realised my point about lord_hur falls into case (a).

On the tvod debate, I want to make myself clear. I think he is scum because, amongst other reasons, of his (1) awful logic (which he simply says is "quirky") and (2) When he FoS-es people, I don't think he is being honest (i.e. he doesn't sound like he is convinced by what he says, he sounds to me like he is just trying to find any reason to cast suspicion on whomever he can. That is a strong scum tell, because whenever scum FoS/vote someone, they know that the person they are voting is not scum.)

[Mr Stoofer]

The difference is this. When a Townie says "I think X is Scum", then he is saying something which he

believes

is true. When a Scum says "I think X is Scum" then (unless X is his scumbuddy) he is saying something which he

knows

is false.

So if you see a person saying "I think X is Scum" but he doesn't sound convinced by his own argument, then that is a strong Scum tell. Townies might be wright or wrong in their suspicions, but they ought to be convinced by their suspicions before posting them.

The vibe I get from tvod is that he is not convinced by his own arguments. This is a point I made ages ago.

[Mr Stoofer]

tvod, I want you to quote and respond to post 203.

Stoofer, that's nice and all, but between scenarios a) push crap logic on a townie and later retract it and b) push crap logic on a townie and keep pushing, the person is pushing crap logic in both cases.

Do you think that you were pushing crap logic? Do you think you fall under a), then? What, in your own words, made you retract it? Feel free to link me to a post where you explained this, if you have.

Well I don't agree I was pushing crap logic. I made a perfectly valid point, pointing out what appeared to me to be a recognised scum tell. Remember, we were on page 1 or 2 and one has to look very hard for scum tells at that stage. And it's not as if I said "OMFG, I've found scum!!!". I just pointed out a known scum tell.

It was following further discussion and thought I decided that it was not a particularly strong scum tell in this instance: see Post 111 where I explained why. Basically, I believe lord_hur when he says he was making wild (and inaccurate) guesses.

[Mr Stoofer]

Oh and I forgot to

unvote: hasdgfas,

vote: thevampireofdussledorf

[Mr Stoofer]

Well my strong preference is to lynch tvod today. But if we can't do that I'd be onboard for a SlySly lynch or hasdgfas. Whatever, let's just get the game moving.

[Mr Stoofer]

And seriously, 4 days to a prod?

I should hope so. You'd get replaced for not posting for 4 days in one of my games.

I want some content from you too, PyroDwarf.

[Mr Stoofer]

Let me think. Is it possible to that I want (at least) 2 people to die? Or do I want this game to end with 10 players still alive?

[Mr Stoofer]

I really hate SlySly's post 235 - it just screams scum at me (except I agree that Guardian's case against hasdgfas was weak). I'd be on for a SlySly lynch if none of the other bandwagons are going anywhere.

NOTE: I will be away from now until Monday 14th April

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, here goes:

I'm playing by sense of smell at this point.

To me, this sounds like another way of saying, "I don't have a good reason so I am going to take a shot in the dark."

It's day 1. What else do have to go on but hunches and such-like? What Guardian said is perfectly reasonable. It applies to me too.

I feel like this is going to come back and bite me in the but later, and people are gonna be like "well if you were really town why weren't you trying so hard to be really townie and good and stuff?" and I don't have a good answer for that.

It seems to me that you are saying that you know you don't have a good reason for your action and you have the sense that your action is going to draw a negative response from the town.

Well, imo, if you are going to do something that will cast you in a negative light to the town, you better have a good reason and be able to answer when called on for it. If you don't do the reasonless act of negativity in the first place, the town would not have been forced to confront you for it.

Again, a perfectly reasonable thing for Guardian to say; I don't even understand what SlySly's complaint is about it.

Nevertheless,

unvote; vote: hasdgfas

I just have a strong intuition he's scum, I still like my case I proposed (and if you don't you can just eat it), and I don't particularly want to lynch my previous top suspects.

You have posted more than 20 times since you last mentioned, hasdgfas. Are you talking about the extremely flimsy case you presented in post 92?

That case basically said hasdgfas was scum because he used pronouns in the random stage and answered a question that was addressed for someone else and that he supposedly lead tVoD.

Well, the first 2 parts of your 'case' are a joke, at best. The 3rd part of your 'case' is an opinion that I don't share. I don't see how hasdgfas was leading at tVoD at all. Maybe I missed a post, though I doubt it. If you are not pro-town enough to quote it, you could be pro-town enough to point out the exact post number you are referring to, when making claims about others questionable play, so it is easy for the town to understand what you are talking about.

You have popped in and placed a vote on a person that I believe to have contributed many pro-town posts throughout the game, using a very old case against him, that you have not mentioned in a long time, while knowing that you are going to be V\LA for some time.

I don't have a problem with the above; although it misses the point that Guardian thinks hasdgfas is scum on instinct. SlySly's argument
rather approaches the matter as though Guardian is putting forward cast-iron evidence, when he has said the opposite.

This to me is a VERY scummy action. You had almost cleared yourself of any suspicion in my mind and then you go and pull this. Mr. Stoofer's consistent scumminess is the only thing keeping my vote off of you.

FoS:Guardian

I think this is way over the top. "VERY scummy action"!?! "you go and pull this"?!? I just don't see what is so scummy about what Guardian has said.

[Mr Stoofer]

In conclusion, the post smells scummy, and I play by sense of smell too.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm still here ya'll. I've been busy at work, and come home too tired to think. I have tomorrow off, so I'll do a re-read.

A re-read is all fine and good, but you need to

contribute

. So far you are way behind everyone else in terms of content and that is beginning to trouble me.

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, I'm back.

First up, saying things like like "X, you haven't answered my question" is unhelpful because (in my case at least) I always try to answer questions, so if there is one I haven't answered I have obviously missed it so you need to repeat it.

Now, to answer tvod's question: a bandwagon consists of more than just votes. When I said that you were joining lor_hur's bandwagon (or whatever I said), I meant that you were joining in with those who were attacking him.

I also think that comments such as this are silly and reveal a lack of understanding about how this game works:

The line of well all we got day one is hunches is BS to me. You can work hard to try and get good reads and find information to come to a reasoned opinion abut who might be scum. But both Gaurdian and Mr Stoofer seem to be very flippant about who they lynch and for what reason. I can only see this as irresponsible and not very pro town at all.

It is very difficult to lynch Scum on Day 1. The best you can do is to do the best you can. But in the vast majority of games the Town ends up lynching Town on Day 1. That's just the way it is. I don't want to spend forever on Day 1 hoping that something concrete will turn up -- because it just won't. [And that sort of game is sooooo boring.] You have to try to read between the lines of the other player's posts and get a feeling for who might be genuine and honest (Town) and who is not being honest (Scum).

On that note, I still think that tvod is is insincere scum, but since that is going nowhere, I'm going to move to my no. 2 target.

unvote: thevampireofdussledorf, vote: SlySly

.

[Mr Stoofer]

I hate the fact that he was posting in other games and did not post in this game; and he is on my radar. But I don't think he is in the same league as, in particular, you, tvod.

And BTW: I think tvod

is

scum -- and not just a pain in the ass (although he is that too). His constant claims that I only voted for him because he is hard to understand are BS and make me even more suspicious. He never addressed my real points against him (and I've given up trying), instead simply saying that he would try harder to be understood and that I was voting for him for being hard to understand.

[Mr Stoofer]

Ok you have a point about your claim of me being scum

I'm guessing that you didn't mean to say that?

[Mr Stoofer]

I always try to answer questions, so if there is one I haven't answered I have obviously missed it so you need to repeat it.

You have repeatedly 'obviously missed' questions from multiple players. It is not our duty to keep repeating questions for you to avoid. It shouldn't take 3 reminders to get you to answer something.

Here is a question for you: list every question I have failed to answer.

[Mr Stoofer]

It is not our duty to keep repeating questions for you to avoid.

If you really wanted an answer to a question you would repeat it, because it vastly increases the likelihood of getting an answer. If on the other hand you are simply trying to smear other players, then I could see why you would not do that... Your response makes me think you are in the latter category.

[Mr Stoofer]

That must have taken a lot of hard work, SlySly, but is in fact a load of crap. First, I made clear that I couldn't/wouldn't answer questions from tvod because I was finding him incomprehensible. Taking the questions out of context as you have done is wrong. In context they formed part of incomprehensible drivel. Second, many of your questions were not questions at all but rhetorical flourishes (e.g. 241 and your own 160). The fact that you claim that I ignored these questions just shows what a scumbag you are. Thirdly, on the Guardian questions (e.g. 172, 184), I have made my position absolutely clear.

I am not the only one who thinks this:

Answers I'd like answered by Mr Stoofer : 275

Uninteresting/rethorical questions : 114, 279, 241

Questions that have been answered (in my eyes), and as such, I don't care about an answer to them : 153, 197, 232, 160

That leaves the matter of the presumed extra info Mr Stoofer has (110, 165, 172, 184). As I said earlier, I am unsure if I should press the subject, because more info can be bad for town, and anyway Mr Stoofer said he would talk about it only if Guardian told him to (which the latter did not).

I am sure you will agree that lord_hur has hardly been pro-Stoofer in this game, so I think it fair to let him be the judge of your list.

The one question he thinks you have a point about is this:

Also where did hasfgad stand on your list when you voted for him and where does he stand now?

In fact both you and and he missed my answer:

I hate the fact that he was posting in other games and did not post in this game; and he is on my radar. But I don't think he is in the same league as, in particular, you, tvod.

"He" in this post referred to hasdgfas -- sorry if that was not clear from the context.

[Mr Stoofer]

Mr Stoofer is trying to twist my words in this post : nowhere did I say or imply anything about SlySly's scumminess in this post,

I can see how the second paragraph can be interpreted as meaning that lord_hur agreed with everything in the first paragraph. That is not what I meant -- sorry.

What I was trying to say was that lord_hur agreed with my "First" "Second" and "Third" points:

First, I made clear that I couldn't/wouldn't answer questions from tvod because I was finding him incomprehensible.

Second, many of your questions were not questions at all but rhetorical flourishes (e.g. 241 and your own 160).

Thirdly, on the Guardian questions (e.g. 172, 184), I have made my position absolutely clear.

[Mr Stoofer]

In addition, I think Stoofer thinks I'm something I'm not, because I'm silly.

WTF?!?!?

You had better tell me what you are not, because if this means what I think it means, then you are dead meat.

[Mr Stoofer]

I am annoyed that you virtually claimed Cop at the start of this game and you are now backing off from that.

Guardian usually starts off the game messing about a bit, posting in haikus. Instead he started straight in with this:

vote: SlySly

Then Guardian's next post is this:

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned me or SlySly, and also that SlySly hasn't posted at all in the game.

mod:

prod?

When lord_hur pointed out in [54] that the game had only just started, Guardian responded by saying [55] "It seems longer".

In his next post, Guardian set out his infamous case against hasdgfas. But he also wrote the following:

SlySly is also probably scum.

SlySly had not even posted at this point

. What possible explanation could Guardian have for saying this -- other than him being a cop with a guilty on SlySly?

HackerHuck obviously noticed that something was up because he asked Guardian how why he thought SlySLy was probably the other scum in [100] and [102]. His response:

and yeah, slysly is a hunch. or something.

This struck me as very odd when I read it the first time. What was the "or something". And anyway, how could he have a hunch about a player who had not even posted, even at that stage? So I went back did a "View All Posts by Guardian". It was fascinating. It struck me that the only explanation for the "or something", and for his post [92], must be that Guardian was a cop with a guilty result on SlySly. What other explanation could there be?

That is why I made my infamous post:

Also, I want to put the following point on the record:

If we do not lynch thevampireofdussledorf today, we should lynch SlySly.

I was trying to do two things with that post: First, I wanted to try to take the heat off Guardian because I thought he was being so blatant that the Scum would be able to spot that he was a Cop. Second, I wanted to signal to Guardian that I had picked up on the deliberate tells he was dropping. That also explains why I refused to explain post 105 unless Guardian insisted: I didn't want to out him unless he wanted to be outed.

However, in light of Guardian's recent posts, I have to say:

Guardian, what the hell are you playing at?

[Mr Stoofer]

Also, Guardian's next post included this:

SlySly, did you or someone in a group you are a part of kill kabemnon last night? Why or why not?

A bizarre question to ask, of only oner player -- unless he was a Cop with a guilty result on SlySly. I want that explained too.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote: Guardian

.

[Mr Stoofer]

MOD

: please can we have a Vote Count.

[Mr Stoofer]

@SlySly

: I'm not sure at the moment what to think about your recent posts. But could I ask you to think a bit more deeply about the interaction between Guardian and me.

Guardian's plan was to breadcrumb as a Cop (with a guilty on you) right from the start of the game. He admits that, and if you look at his first ~8 posts you can see that it's true.

You can also see that I picked up on it very early in the game.

Now Guardian subsequently backed off from his breadcrumb. He stopped acting like he had a guilty result on you -- which confused me enormously.

Finally he said "Stoofer thinks I'm something I'm not". As a result I exposed him and he is going to be lynched as a result of the pressure I put on him.

Is that the way two scum buddies would work together? Surely I would have ignored his Cop breadcrumbs -- as everyone else did -- allowing him to either (a) claim Cop at a convenient moment, or (b) back off if he preferred? I would not have gone on the offensive the moment he backed off his breadcrumbs, would I?

I would also never have linked myself so strongly to his Cop claim (as I did in [105] and [168]) if I knew it was false (as I would do if I were his scumbuddy).

I would quite like your response to this, because at the moment I don't see you as being a partner with Guardian-scum; but I am also having severe doubts about you as a result of some of the points you are making.

[Mr Stoofer]

That is the worst attempt at WIFOM I have ever seen.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm having trouble understanding why Guardian hasn't been lynched yet. How much more evidence do you need than someone admitting that they pretended to be a Cop, tried to make people think they were a Cop, when they are not? And when challenged, claims Miller and says "don't investigate me tonight because I will come up as Scum"?

[Mr Stoofer]

~twiddles thumbs~

[Mr Stoofer]

This is the wiki description: Jester. A Jester is someone whose aium in the game is to get themselves lynched. Normally they lose if they are lynched Day 1.

The thought hadn't crossed my mind that Guardian was a Jester, but it would explain someone pretending to be a Cop and then admitting that they were not.

I had the question of do they win if they are lynched day two and how do they lose?

A Jester wins if he is lynched Day 2, and loses if he is nightkilled or endgamed.

Also is it of any value to keep them around as they appear to be of no use to the town or scum, and is the only value of keeping a suspected Jester around to stop them achieving their win condition?

This is the problem with Jesters. First, you can never trust them. 99% of players who claim Jester are Scum. Imagine this: if the game gets down to you, Guardian and one other player, are you going to trust Guardian enough to vote the other guy? Secondly, Jesters hurt the Town because they will not help the Town to lynch Scum. On the contrary, they have to make sure that they do not appear to be a threat to the Scum; because if they help the Town to lynch Scum then the Scum will kill them at night and then they will lose. Instead, they have to try to hurt the Town so much (e.g. by attacking pro-Town players) that the Town lynches them.

And lastly is it a possible stratergy of mafia to try and have people believ you to be a jester so that you are not lynched?

Yes, that certainly is a strategy that has been used before. As I say, 99% of Jester claims come from Scum.

[Mr Stoofer]

In fact, a

real

Jester would usually not claim Jester.

[Mr Stoofer]

Where does the jester losing if lynched day one come from?

Perhaps I should have said "often" rather than "normally". An example is Thespival Mafia -- see the Jester's win condition in this post.

[Mr Stoofer]

I agree with all of that tvod. That's why you won't see Jesters in any game which I run.

[Mr Stoofer]

Please don't prod him, replace him!

[Mr Stoofer]

I am not suspicious of you for bringing up the possibility of Guardian as a Jester.

However, I am positive that Guardian is not a Jester, because Jester's cannot self-vote (that would be contrary to the whole point of a Jester).

We just lynched ourselves some scum people!

[Mr Stoofer]

Actualy I think it very likely Guardian could in fact be a miller.

Then why haven't you re-voted for him?

[Mr Stoofer]

If undo has included a Jester who can self vote and who wins if lynched on Day 1, I will personally kill him.

[Mr Stoofer]

No I don't get it either. I wonder what I actually meant to say? I can't for the life of me remember!

[Mr Stoofer]

Hmmm. Something funny is obviously going on with role reveals.

Anyway, I am sure that we lynched scum yesterday, especially having seen last night's kill, so I am going to re-read the whole thread looking for everyone's interactions with Guardian. I suggest everyone else does the same.

[Mr Stoofer]

Well, I am sure that Guardian was scum because he tried to deceive the Town about being a Cop. As Singing Librarian says, he cannot have been a Jester.

It is possible that SlySly was killed to put suspicion on me (as SL suggests). However, I think it is more likely that he was killed because he was more-or-less confirmed as pro-Town: the fact that Guardian pretended to have a guilty result on him pretty much proved that he was not Guardian's scumbuddy. That was what I meant about his death confirming Guardian as scum.

[Mr Stoofer]

Here is another reason why I am sure Guardian is Scum. Look at this thread.

Norinel asked this:

Has anyone ever been called out for a breadcrumb before they pointed it out themself? If not, then it seems like a valid scum strategy might be to leave two or three breadcrumbs early on and pick whichever one you like when you need to claim. (Or just ignore them all)

Guardian responded:

Norinel: I have

as scum

, and the town came | | close to believing my cop claim xD.

This was posted the same day as Guardian was forced to admit that he was not a Cop in this game. He must have been referring to this game.

[I found this post during the Night but forgot to post it yesterday.]

[Mr Stoofer]

I am going to re-read the whole thread looking for everyone's interactions with Guardian. I suggest everyone else does the same.

Has anyone done this yet?

I have concluded that neither thevampireofdussledorf or hasdgfas are Guardian's scumbuddies based on yesterday's play. I am not confident that I can pick out who

is

his buddy, though.

[Mr Stoofer]

Mr Stoofer are you saying I am tonw? Or are you saying if guardian is scum I am town. Or are you saying Guardian is scum...wtf are you saying?

Yes I am saying that you are Town.*

Why are you so surprised about this? Am I wrong?

* Strictly, I am saying that you are not one of Guardian's scumbudies. You could theoretically be Scum not aligned with Guardian. But since there is no evidence of multiple Scum groups, I am not considering this possibility at present.

[Mr Stoofer]

I am going to re-read the whole thread looking for everyone's interactions with Guardian. I suggest everyone else does the same.

Has anyone done this yet?

Well I have done this again and I think Musher333 is scum. I did a "View All Posts by Musher333" and I suggest you do the same.

First, what I didn't notice until I did this was that Musher333 said more than once that I was scummy for "defending Guardian". See for example his post 241, in which he says that me trying to save Guardian gives "quite a scummy feel" about me. This assumes that Guardian is scum -- but he never votes for Guardian. I think this is a subconcious slip. He knows Guardian is Scum, he sees me defending Guardian, and thinks that this is a good reason to try to put some pressure on me.

I also think that his behaviour in the run up to Guardian's lynch is interesting. He makes sure that he is on record as agreeing with the Guardian lynch, but he does nothing to push it. For example:

Now i think about it i agree at the moment a Guardian lynch is our best bet, lets wait and see how many votes he has and see his reply :d.

This is just enough to make you think he is in favour of a Guardian lynch, but really he wants to give Guardian a chance to defend himself/talk his way out of the lynch. He never voted Guardian despite saying this and despite saying that I was scummy for defending Guardian.

Vote: Musher333

I particularly want to see him explain why I was scummy for defending Guardian early in the day, and yet he never ever voted Guardian (or even gave him a "FOS").

[Mr Stoofer]

What i meant by defending was you seemed to be close to him quite a lot but then when he claimed miller you were pushing for a lynch, if you believed he was scum why were you so close to him.

No No No. You criticised me for defending Guardian in Post 241, long before he claimed Miller.

[PS: It wasn't his claim of Miller that made me push for his lynch. It was the fact that he pretended to be a Cop when he wasn't.]

[Mr Stoofer]

What i meant by defending was you seemed to be close to him quite a lot but then when he claimed miller you were pushing for a lynch, if you believed he was scum why were you so close to him.

No No No. You criticised me for defending Guardian in Post 241, long before he claimed Miller.

[PS: It wasn't his claim of Miller that made me push for his lynch. It was the fact that he pretended to be a Cop when he wasn't.]

Ah my bad, i thought you were pushing for his lynch because of his miller, and what i meant was you seemed to be helping each other out in the arguments quite a lot, i'm not quite sure who started buddying who though, it might have been that he had started it but i didn't think so.

You did not answer my question, which was:

I particularly want to see [Musher333] explain why I was scummy for defending Guardian early in the day, and yet he never ever voted Guardian (or even gave him a "FOS").

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, here is the Guardian thing in easy steps.

1. Guardian pretended to be a Cop. If you look at his first ~8 posts, you can see he was pretending to be a Cop. I provided an analysis in this post. Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, Guardian admitted that he was pretending to be a Cop with a "guilty" result on SlySly.

2. Guardian was not a Cop.

3.

No pro-town player would ever pretend to be a Cop -- with a guilty result on another player -- when they weren't

. That is a simply fact. Not even a Miller would do this. (I guess a Jester might do this, but we know Guardian was not a Jester because the game hasn't ended.)

4. The reason Scum would breadcrumb as a Cop would be so that if they had to claim later, they could claim Cop. Cop is a good claim for a Scum in a theme game -- there may be more than one Cop, with varying sanities; he might be able to convince the Town that there are multiple Cops with varying sanities; there might not be a Cop; or kabenon007 might have been the Cop (and maybe Guardian knew it, as he killed him). In any of these cases Guardian could get away with a Cop claim. The worst that can happen as Scum if you claim Cop is that you find out who the real Cop is, which is a pretty useful thing in a mini game like this.

I have done this precise thing as Scum - breadcrumbed Cop on day 1 so that I could claim to be the Cop later. This is the post where I claimed Cop and made reference to the numerous hints I had left earlier in the game[/url]. It was a no-reveal game so I thought I could get away with the claim even if there was another Cop.

5. I am not sure why Guardian backed out of his Cop lies. I guess he just lost his nerve, especially since he had rather over-played his hand by pretending to be a Cop

with a guilty result

. He probably also noticed that I had worked out that he was breadcrumbing Cop, and got worried that he was being too obvious.

In short

:

• No way pro-Town Guardian would pretend to be a Cop with a guilty result.
  
• Lots of reasons for Scum Guardian to pretend to be a Cop with a guilty result.
  
• Therefore Guardian = Scum

[Mr Stoofer]

Reason to pretend cop as pro town role is if you are a Miller.

I've never ever heard of this (and I strongly strongly disagree). Why don't you give me a link?

[Mr Stoofer]

I can't understand a word tvod is saying.

@lord_hur

: Guardian was pretending to have a guilty result on SlySy. That was how I worked out he was (pretending to be) a Cop. His breadcrumbs were breadrumbs that he had a guilty result on SlySly.

See my analysis in this post; then read the next two posts and you will see that Guardian admits that he was pretending to have a guilty result on SlySly. He claimed that the reason he did that was: "I wanted to see what would happen if I alluded obviously to being cop, most optimally hoping for odd reactions for SlySly that pointed to my random choice being correct, us lynching SlySly, and me being nightkilled".

[Mr Stoofer]

@HackerHuck: you don't mention Musher333 in your post, which I find surprising. What is you opinion on him, bearing in mind he seemed to know that it was Scummy to defend Guardian?

[Mr Stoofer]

@undo

: Please can you replace PyroDwarf and ShinHatsubai.

@Musher333

: I think he meant to say: "All of that would point to scum behaviour

if

Musher didn't know about the no-reveal and Guardian is scum"

@everyone

: How do you propose we move this game forward?

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer, I'm at a loss. Until we have alignment reveals, it's very hard to know how to move forward, as it seems we're unlikely to get any sort of consensus on what's been going on.

It seems that we have few, if any, strong leads and we're seriously floundering.

We've got almost 20 pages of stuff here (which used to be the average length of a whole mini game). If you can't find any leads in that then you are Scum or you should quit the game. Seriously. What is the point of even playing this game if you can't find

anything

in 20 pages to take a punt on?

The same goes to everyone else who isn't voting at the moment.

[Mr Stoofer]

I agree with tvod. There is no way we can work out why some roles were revealed and some weren't. And even if we did work it out, how would that catch scum?

If you haven't got any suspects:

go back and re-read the thread until you find one!!

Well Stoofer, i don't think it is to good of an idea to rush things, i would rather see what comes of the next week and then i will try and find the small tells.

I am so happy that I am voting you. The idea that we should just wait a week, and see if any "small tells" magically appear, is nonsensical. You have no defence to your Scum-slip except "please wait to see if anyone else makes a mistake".

[Mr Stoofer]

Also, this game sucks.

2 players who need replacement, and loads of players who want to sit and do nothing rather than find Scum.

Can't we just

try

to get the game moving? Can't everyone at least vote for their best guess and see where we go from there?

Otherwise this game can never end and I'll just quit it. Seriously. What is the point of playing if only 2 or 3 players are even trying to work out who is the Scum?

[Mr Stoofer]

Player Status Reports

:

Trying to find Scum, voting for their best guess

Mr Stoofer
Singing Librarian
thevampireofdusseldorf

MIA, need to be replaced

PyroDwarf
Shin Hatsubai

Non-commital, causing the game to die

HackerHuck
hasdgfas
lord_hur
Musher333

[Mr Stoofer]

Nice to see Musher-scum imploding. More votes please!!

[Mr Stoofer]

Post 485 is clearly the post of Scum flailing around.

[Mr Stoofer]

You may be right.

Musher333, can you explain - as precisely as possible - (I can't stress this enough, and please, more than one sentence) why you are thinking that Mr Stoofer seems "really scummy" ?

Its mainly because ( i know i have said this before and he has probably gave reasoning but i can't remember) that either he or guardian was staying close to the other and then as soon as the chances of guardian breadcrumming cop goes and he claims miller, BANG! Stoofer pushes hard for his lynch (Very much like he is for mine atm).

Musher333: As you know, I thought Guardian was a Cop until he admitted that he wasn't. So in fact, my plan was:

• I thought Guardian was a Cop --> I followed his votes and defended him.
  
• Guardian admitted he was trying to deceive people into thinking he was a Cop --> I tried to get him lynched because that is the behaviour of Scum.

Please explain why that is not a valid explanation for my interactions with Guardian.

@SeraphicMirth: TVOD is unlikely to be Scum, because of his interactions with Guardian-scum on day 1. And yes, I am prepared to assume that Guardian was Scum because only Scum pretend to be Cops when they are not.

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer, you're totally discounting the possibility of Guardian as miller or are you just thinking it quite unlikely?

Well, it is possible that he was a Miller, but highly highly unlikely. I don't think that pro-Town Guardian would be so stupid as to pretend to be a Cop with a guilty result on a randomly chosen player. The overwhelming probability is that he was Scum and so I am proceeding on that basis.

Plus Musher's slip seems to confirm that he was Scum.

[Mr Stoofer]

@HackerHuck: The whole point of this game is to make cases against other players you find suspicious.

Why do you criticise anyone who makes a strong case against anyone else? Hoe do you propose we end this day (never mind the whole game) if people don't make cases against each other.

Really, this game is soooo slow and boring because so many people either won't make cases or criticise people who do. I'm tempted to join springlullaby's bandwagon on lord_hur because I just can't see this game ever ending any other way...

[Mr Stoofer]

:arrow:

I will be away 23rd May - 2nd June.

[Mr Stoofer]

OMFG how have we not lynched Musher yet? Do you guys not understand the fact that he gave himself away, by accusing me of being scum

for defending Guardian

. That means that

he knew that Guardian was scum

. And the only way he could have known that was if he was Guardian's scum buddy.

FFS guys, can we get this game going please?

[Mr Stoofer]

Since lord_hur and Musher333 are the two lynch leaders at the moment, I'd like to see each of them post detailed thoughts on the other.

Thanks.

[Mr Stoofer]

Since lord_hur and Musher333 are the two lynch leaders at the moment, I'd like to see each of them post detailed thoughts on the other.

Thanks.

[Mr Stoofer]

Prediction: this game will never be completed.

[Mr Stoofer]

Also:

OMFG how have we not lynched Musher yet? Do you guys not understand the fact that he gave himself away, by accusing me of being scum

for defending Guardian

. That means that

he knew that Guardian was scum

. And the only way he could have known that was if he was Guardian's scum buddy.

FFS guys, can we get this game going please?

[Mr Stoofer]

I am eager to lynch you because (a) you are scum and (b)

this game is dying and I want it to get moving

.

[Mr Stoofer]

Every townie has received this standard message:

Welcome to Plagues of Egypt Mafia, [player].

[illustration of role]

You are [name], a [job]. You are a simple

townie

, with no special abilities.

I believe that every role has a name

as well as a

job title.

[Mr Stoofer]

All it says like that is that i am a

Physician

as i already said.

my name is Kamazu.

~raises eyebrow~

[Mr Stoofer]

Interesting claim, but I don't think it helps matters very much at all. It seems fairly plausible to me, but it doesn't really push things in either direction. Doctor seems to be the ultimate scum fakeclaim, but equally doctors are quite a common role and it's entirely possible he is one. I can see no compelling evidence either way, or any vague, non-compelling evidence, for that matter.

QFT.

[Mr Stoofer]

TVoD was anti-Guardian all day, before Guardian was under any pressure, which I don't think a scumbuddy would have done - I don't see TVoD as that cunning. Plus a scumbuddy would have piled onto Guardian at the end when he admitted pretending to be a cop with a guilty result.

Guardian set out a detailed case against hasdgfas early on Day 1. Again not the actions of scumbuddies in my view.

Of course I may be wrong, but interactions between Scum and players alive is the best way to find Scum among the players alive.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'd like someone to elaborate on their suspicion about the name claim - Hur and Stoofer in particular. I have both a point for and against the name claim, and will say so after I hear why you think the name claim is BS.

I have nothing against the name itself as such. My point was that Musher333 started by saying that "

all

it says

" is that he was a Physician; and then he added the name later when it was specifically pointed out that his role should have a name with it.

[Mr Stoofer]

My own name is Egyptian. However the name Thabit is from Mesopotamia - different ballpark, but same league. I'm not really sure where the name Kamazu comes from - googling it, it doesn't seem to be a name at all.

The most famous

Kamazu

, according to Wikipedia, is from Malawi: Hastings Kamuzi Banda. He seems to have been known as "Kamazu" - when they named a Stadium after him they named it Kamazu Stadium.

Make of that what you will. It's playing no part in my thought processes.

[Mr Stoofer]

It's playing no part in my thought processes.

Not least because (having just Googled/Wikipedia-ed it) my name appears to be a region of India, and Wikipedia has some Somalis and some Indians with that name.

[Mr Stoofer]

[Mr Stoofer]

My position is easy: there is nothing in the claim itself which makes me think he is more or less likely to be Scum. So it does not affect my reasoning one way or the other. I think the fact that the claim came out in dribs and drabs, and was not entirely consistent, is a small point against him.

[Mr Stoofer]

I think the point that it came out in pieces is a strike against him, and I think the name origins thing is irrelevant. I believe I already said mine is Egyptian. Stoofer said his was Indian or something, and our only uncovered lynch was Arabian. I wouldn't be surprised if Musher's name was something weird.

Agree with all that.

I think the accuracy of the claim is too good to be ignored.

If there's a doc in the game, it must be a physician.

If Musher is scum, then scum must have a lot of information about the game that we don't know.

WHAT!?!?!?

[Mr Stoofer]

But if you managed to work out that "physician" was the perfect title for Doc, why do you think he couldn't?

[And BTW, physician is an obvious rolename for Doc, so your point is hopeless anyway. You don't have to be the real Doc to come up with that.]

[Mr Stoofer]

i first answered with healer because that was basically what i am

When?

[Mr Stoofer]

This debate over Musher333's claim is fascinating, but at the end of the day it tells us nothing. The fact that his flavour ("physician") is good, tells us nothing. He could be Scum who learns the roles of dead players (not uncommon, see Mafia 45 for an example) or he could have independently thought of this. I don't know why you are all discounting this -- it seems one obvious flavour, and it was his second guess anyway (he started by saying "doctor").

We have

a lot

more informaton on Musher333 than just his claim. Why are you guys ignoring that?

Right now, I feel that the possibility of Musher being doc is somewhat equal to his being scum (somewhat..I still feel a stronger tug towards the scum side of the fence)

If you think you are going to find someone else who you think is more than 50% likely to be Scum... good luck.

[Mr Stoofer]

You call it "single minded". But there is only a single player here that I think we should lynch today. If you want to post a detailed case on anyone else, I'll consider it carefully.

[Mr Stoofer]

There is something in your role which would practically prove your innocence? I'd love to hear this!

[Mr Stoofer]

occuiccac
eiphsif
etc

[Mr Stoofer]

The above is a coded way of explaining my best guess as to what the hell you are talking about. It is in code so as to comply with strife220's request. You can go ahead and comply with strife220's request now.

[Mr Stoofer]

And once you have answered post 712 then I will decode post 715.

[Mr Stoofer]

And now please explain what you are talking about.

[Mr Stoofer]

BTW, I am going offline in a few minutes, and won't be back on again before deadline, so if you want me to decode post 715, you had better hurry.

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer you can talk about the question Musher is asking you - i.e. the mysterious thing to prove his innocence. I just don't want anybody to talk about the win condition.

Well, I have made a guess about what I think Musher is talking about in post 715 and I have posted a very weakly encoded "clue" to the equivalent thing in my role PM.

[Mr Stoofer]

Is that exactly what your win condition is Musher? In the sentence where it talks about how you win, those are the only key words? Threat to egypt?

I believe we've caught scum people

To be honest strife220, much as I want Musher333 dead, I don't think that this discussion is advancing the debate very much. No-one is

that

stupid. I am only playing along in case refusal to answer Musher333's question is used against me later.

[Mr Stoofer]

And now please explain what you are talking about.

I would but i still don't understand your cipher post.

Lat chance before I go offline. You say what you are talking about and then I will decode my cipher post.

[Mr Stoofer]

Oh well, then my guess is wrong. In that case, no point in decoding 715 now, I'll decode it if/when we do a mass claim.

So what is it Musher, now that I have admitted I have no idea what you are talking about?

[Mr Stoofer]

Oh, I did guess right

occuiccac
eiphsif
etc

Just reverse the letters of the first two lines and you get "cacciucco" (a type of fish stew), "fish pie" and then "etc". In other words, I eat fish.

[Mr Stoofer]

Right, so have I proved myself to be Town in your eyes?

[Mr Stoofer]

Also, since I guessed right but strife220 said he didn't understand, does that make him Scum?

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm speechless.

I'll post something when I recover.

[Mr Stoofer]

And Physician is perfect flavor. What else do you think the game's doc would be called?

I don't disagree with this sentiment. But if it is true, then how could Musher333 coming up with this be evidence of his innocence? Put another way: if he were Scum, what would he have claimed as his flavour? [And BTW, you can't say "he is too dumb to have come up with it" because if he Scum he has a buddy to help him with claims.]

And on the subject of fake-claims, don't you think "Pork" is the obvious thing for the Scum to claim that they eat?

I have read the "cross-examination" of Musher333 again, and I see the force of the argument that it shows him to be unbelievably stupid. So yes, I agree that he could be Very Very Very Dumb Town. He could also be Very Dumb Scum.

I have always taken the view that when you have someone who you know is either Scum or Very Very Very Dumb Town, you lynch them -- because either way they are going to be no help at the end of the game. (Ask yourself this, those who think Musher333 is town and want to keep him alive: If it comes to the endgame, with you, Musher333 and the last Scum alive, how much to you trust Musher333 to vote for the last Scum and not you?)

But Very Dumb =/= Town. Scum can be Dumb too. Do you think Musher333 would be playing a better game if he were Scum?

Furthermore, I don't particularly like either the hasdgfas or the HackHuck bandwagons. If someone wants to set out a detailed case on either of them, then I'll pay close attention, but at the moment I think that getting rid of Musher333 would be of the greatest benefit to the Town right now.

I will move my vote as necessary to ensure that we have a lynch at deadline. At the moment that means keeping it on Musher333.

[Mr Stoofer]

I have always taken the view that when you have someone who you know is either Scum or Very Very Very Dumb Town, you lynch them -- because either way they are going to be no help at the end of the game.

This statement sometime causes controversy, so just to prove that I

do

always say this, here is an example from the most recent completed game I played in as Town. I gave the following as a reason to lynch Battle Mage:

Battle Mage is a complete idiot, who is bound to distract and hurt the Town regardless of his alignment, and the sooner he is dead the better.

For further proof go to this thread and "View All Posts by Mr Stoofer".

[Mr Stoofer]

Come on people, can't you come up with two or three names of people you'd be fine with getting lynched ?

This is an astonishing thing to say! You have been one of the most "backseat" players in this game, by which I mean that you have not contributed to moving this game forward ("moving the game forward" = "lynching people", by the way).

If you want us to consider lynching someone else, then

you

come up with a case on someone else.

Right now I'd be content to lynch lord_hur:

• Trying to get other people to come up with cases, while not doing so himself, is a classic Scum tactic.
  
• And if he is Town, he is useless.
  
• The only person lord_hur has really cast suspicion on is me. That's scummy for two reasons: (a) I am the easiest person to attack since I am by far the most vocal player here; and (b) even when attacking me he has never given proper reasons.

I'm not unvoting (in case a no-lynch results) but I'll switch to lord_hur if there is enough support.

[Mr Stoofer]

And once again lord_hur fails to post a detailed case, but just loudly shouts at the most vocal player without giving proper reasons.

[Mr Stoofer]

I was Scum on both those games you quoted. So you can hardly take that as valid evidence of my true opinions. I was making stuff up to try to get innocent people lynched.

[Mr Stoofer]

This is the most recent vote count published by the Mod. It contains an error (Musher333 appears twice; no Singing Librarian) so I have done my best to correct it :

Votecount

Musher333 - 3 (Mr Stoofer, hasdgfas, HackerHuck)
HackerHuck - 2 (lord_hur, springlullaby)
hasdgfas - 1 (strife220)

Not voting

: Musher333, SeraphicMirth,

Musher333

Singing Librarian

With 9 alive, it's

5 to lynch

Assuming I got that right, the position now is this:

Unofficial Votecount

Musher333 - 4 (Mr Stoofer, hasdgfas, HackerHuck, Singing Librarian)
HackerHuck - 3 (lord_hur, springlullaby, strife220)
lord_hur - 1 (SeraphicMirth)

Not voting

: Musher333

Because a tie-no=lynch, if anyone moves off Musher333 now they will cause a no-lynch (unless they move to Hacker Huck).

So while I think I would rather lynch lord_hur today, if I move onto him that will just mean nobody gets lynched, and that would be a Bad Thing IMHO.

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, strife220, on that basis I can safely

unvote: Musher333

and

vote: lord_hur

. I am counting on you sticking to your last paragraph (although I would prefer a slightly different order, the main thing is not to no-lynch).

[Mr Stoofer]

Unofficial Votecount

Musher333 - 3 (hasdgfas, HackerHuck, Singing Librarian)
lord_hur - 3 (SeraphicMirth, strife220, Mr Stoofer)
HackerHuck - 2 (lord_hur, springlullaby)

Not voting

: Musher333

This means that if the deadline hits, no-one will be lynched; but strife220 has promised to vote for Musher (or just unvote) to ensure that that does no happen.

[Mr Stoofer]

What letter does their name begin with?

[Mr Stoofer]

What letter does their name begin with?

their name ? I don't get it.

It was a joke.

I have to go now and I won't be back by deadline. Have a good weekend everyone.

[Mr Stoofer]

Claimed Masons both living through the night?

~raises eyebrows~

[Mr Stoofer]

Claimed Masons both living through the night?

~raises eyebrows~

My post wasn't so much saying "you must be lying" as "something odd is going on". I find it unlikely that you and SL are lying about being Masons, especially after we have had

some

role reveals. [Also it is silly to suggest that if I were scum I would think it easier to lynch you than nightkill you, but anyway...]

Anyway: we need more people to post today!!! Where are HackerHuck, springlullaby, SingingLibrarian, SeraphicMirth?

[Mr Stoofer]

We don't know whether we're in lynch or lose, surely, as we don't know for certain whether any of the deceased are scum. It may be best to assume we are, but we may not be.

I am proceeding on the basis that we are not in LyLo because I remain convinced that Guardian was Scum. If we are in LyLo, then there is a great deal to be said for a massclaim now.

However, not particularly impressed by the springlullaby quotes hasdfgas has pulled together, with one exception. The comment about musher not pinging the scumdar but still being an ok lynch needs explanation.

Agree. It's nice to see hasdgfas make a substantial post but I wasn't convinced by his case.

[Mr Stoofer]

The "something odd" refers to the fact that masons are usually the first target for the scum because they are confirmed innocents. If the Doc hadn't died, the Scum might not target a mason in case he had doc protection; but the doc died before night started. On the other hand, strife220 was pretty much confirmed innocent if Guardian was Scum, so maybe it's not such a big point.

As to your other question, see post 851. You said that that there was someone who could persuade you to claim (but didn't explain). I was going to ask "is the other person me?" (as a joke, because I knew it obviously wasn't me) but instead I asked "what letter does their name begin with" as a joke.

[Mr Stoofer]

Here's a question for you Mr Stoofer - Given your assertion that Guardian is scum, what do you think about Guardian's suspicion of hasdgfas? Do you think it was bussing or just a red herring?

I did a re-read of Day 1 at the beginning of Day 2, looking for interactions with Guardian. His attack on hasdgfas didn't look like bussing to me, because there were various people under suspicion (not including Guardian or hasdgfas) at the time and there was no reason to bus so strongly at that stage. This was my conclusion after my re-read:

I have concluded that neither thevampireofdussledorf or hasdgfas are Guardian's scumbuddies based on yesterday's play. I am not confident that I can pick out who

is

his buddy, though.

[Mr Stoofer]

No. I assume that in a mini-theme game with powerroles there are 3 Scum.



:PREVIEW EDIT: I see why you asked the question now -- when I said "who is his buddy" I wasn't intending to imply that there was only one.

[Mr Stoofer]

That's an excellent point. I'll do a re-read on HackerHuck, springlullaby and SM when I have the time - which may not be for several days.

[Mr Stoofer]

stark, you need to re-read more carefully. Guardian was dropping fake cop tells at the beginning of the game, pretending that he had a guilty result on Sly Sly. He admitted this. That is why I said I wanted to lynch Sly Sly - (a) to signal to Guardian that I had picked up on his hint, and (b) to take some of the attention away from Guardian, who was being too obvious I thought.

When Guardian asked to explain why I was onto Sly Sly, I said that I would do so only if he insisted (because it would involve blowing his cover). Guardian then admitted that he had been trying to con the Town into thinking he was the Cop with a guilty on Sly Sly, so not surprisingly we lynched him.

[Mr Stoofer]

Okay. I am confirmed town.

Well, there are such things as Scum masons -- did SL say that his role PM confirmed that you were Town?

The setup looks clear now on the scum side : extraordinary powers (ending a day ? OMFG). With this kind of stuff, it is impossible that they are more than 2.

Seriously? The Town started the game with a pair of masons and a doc, and we don't know what other roles. Do you really think that the Scum would have only 2 players against a town with several power roles? I don't see this as feasible.

This may be significant because if there were 3 Scum, then one of them must be dead by now (else we would have lost already). So unless a vig wants to admit killing kabenon or strife, then it seems to me that Guardian must be scum.

[Mr Stoofer]

the only 2 people there were Moses and his brother

Where are you getting that from? I can't see it in the Opening Post.

[Mr Stoofer]

the people voting him, namely Mr. Stoofer

Er... didn't a majority of players vote to lynch Musher???

stark, it is very easy for you to say with hindsight that we shouldn't have lynched Musher. But he was acting very scummy, and the mere fact that he claimed to be the doc did not prove anything (especially since a number of players had died without their roles being revealed). I don't understand why, just because he claimed to be the Doc (and in a very unconvincing way, too) we should have given him a free pass. I don't think it is at all surprising that

most people in this game

continued to believe he was scum.

[Mr Stoofer]

Isn't that what happened?

[Mr Stoofer]

I would love to see a Stoofer defense, LH.

Defence to what? I have already rebutted all the points you have made against me.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm town becuase I'm town. What sort of a question is that?

I have done tons of pro-town things this game. I have kept the game moving by posting my thoughts and suspicions when others have been non-comittal (and that has had inevitable results -- i.e. as the most vocal player I come under suspicion) and I was also responsible for getting Guardian lynched. He would have got away with pretending to be a Cop, and then backing off his pretence, if it was not for me.

[Mr Stoofer]

I was also responsible for getting Guardian lynched. He would have got away with pretending to be a Cop, and then backing off his pretence, if it was not for me.

What would be the point of scum pretending to be cop day 1 ? What do you think Guardian-scum's plan would have been ?

It is standard play to set up a false claim at the beginning of day 1. In fact, in my last game before this one I was Scum and I laid "tells" that I was a cop from the beginning of day 1. Then when I had to claim later in the game, I poiinted to all the tells and said "look, I am obviously a cop because why else would I have said...". Guardian was just preparing the ground for the time when it came for him to make a claim.

Also, do you see a reason for scum to pick SL over me ?

I can think of lots of reasons. An obvious one is that Scum would kill the one who was suspicious of the Scum; an equally obvious one is to kill the one who was suspicious of a pro-Town player and use WIFOM to get that player lynched.

[Mr Stoofer]

I think lord_hur's call for everyone to post their suspects is a good idea. I've called for this before without success. I'd like everyone to post their top 2 suspects. I'll do this too, as the most vocal player in this game (by far) I want the rest of you to do it first (lord_hur, who is more or less confirmed Town, can go last). Then we can tabulate the results and see where we go from there.

[Mr Stoofer]

If falsely pretending to be a Cop isn't doesn't make you Scum in your eyes, then what the hell would? [Don't bother answering this, it's just that I am astonished by your last post.If you think that the chances of a player who pretends to be a Cop with a guilty result on an innocent player is only 10%, then I want to be Scum in the next game we play together.]

[Mr Stoofer]

I did

not

reference 2 scums. I said this:

I am not confident that I can pick out who

is

his buddy, though.

That sentence does not imply only 2 Scum. (Think about it this way: If I had said "who are his buddies" than would imply 3+ Scum, which is probably why I did not use that form of wording.)

[Mr Stoofer]

EWBOP: Look at my post 434 too.

[Mr Stoofer]

Err... what are you on stark? Are you saying that Guardian wasn't pretending to be a Cop?

[Mr Stoofer]

stark: please read post 322. There was a lot more to Guardian's pretence than just post 103.

[Mr Stoofer]

I will be V/LA until Monday.

[Mr Stoofer]

1. Stoofer has more or less flown under the radar the entire game.

2. He has not done anything particularly pro-town. He claims that his persuit of Guardian, who he seems to believe was scum, was exceptionally pro-town. I disagree.

Is this a joke? I have been the most active participant in the game, pushing discussion, trying to keep the game moving, etc. I honestly believe that this game would have died if I had not been keeping it going (and to be honest, the effort has exhausted me).

That

is what I have done that is particularly pro-town. I have a challenge for you stark, to name

one

player that has done something "particulalrly pro-town" and explain what it is.

As for "flying under the radar", if you mean I have laid low - you must be kidding, right? If you mean that I have not come under suspicion - you must be kidding right? Which do you mean, and how on earth do you justify it?

[Mr Stoofer]

The core is that Mr Stoofer was the one who pushed most for the two lynches we made so far, which I think are both town.

Well, I was on the Guardian lynch, who I think was Scum and so did the majority of the Town.

I was not on Musher's lynch, although I was in favour of it - again, as were the majority.

These were my honest suspects. Unlike a lot of players in this game who have sat back an let others -i.e. me make the running (and you are a little bit guily of this, lord_hur) I have tried to keep this game moving forward by posting my suspicions and my reasons.

There's also that slip about the number of scums,

Which one? Hacker Huck seems to think that i slipped up by revealing that there were 2 Scums. Whereas you think I slipped up by revealing that there were 3 Scums.

and various scumtells I can't be bothered to recap.

I know you are 99% confirmed Town, but if you weren't then this sort of thing would look really scummy.

And exactly zero towntells, as far as i'm concerned.

Can you name one towntell given off by any other player in this game? Here are some suggestions: (i) not lurking, unlike most players in this game (ii) not being afraid to post my suspicions and back them up with reasons?

Also, I have an image of Mr Stoofer being a great (at least, much over the average) player, and that does not make sense with town-Mr Stoofer. Too many mistakes, too many bad assessments (in my opinion of course). Scum-Mr Stoofer looks much better to me. The scum have played very intelligently this game.

Silly. I am not a good player. Look at my wiki page: you will see that a have lost

a lot

more games than I have one. My custom title "Less than scum" was given to me because I was not worthy of a full "Mafia Scum" title. The reasons people like playing with me is not because I am good at this game but because I am active and keep the game moving.

[Mr Stoofer]

So in summary, I am being lynched because (a) I have been the most active player, and (b) I "slipped" and revealed that there were 2 or 3 Scum, depending on whether you are Hacker Huck or lord_hur.

[Mr Stoofer]

EBWOP

:

That last post is not quite right. I am getting confused about what slips I am supposed to have made, because of lord_hur's confusing and contradictory posts. Post 1015 made me think that lord_hur thought there are 3 Scums.

@lord_hur

: you have said (a) there are 2 scums (post 989) (b) Guardian was pro-town (post 989 and others) (c) we are in lylo (post 1015). How do you reconcile those statements?

[Mr Stoofer]

Is this a joke? I have been the most active participant in the game, pushing discussion, trying to keep the game moving, etc. I honestly believe that this game would have died if I had not been keeping it going (and to be honest, the effort has exhausted me).

That

is what I have done that is particularly pro-town.

A talkative player does not pro-town make. That was very kind of you that you stimulated the game. This does not give you a "Get out of Lynch" card.[/quote]
I'm not saying it does. You accused me of flying under the radar. I take it you now admit you were wrong?

I have a challenge for you stark, to name

one

player that has done something "particulalrly pro-town" and explain what it is.

Don't try to divert attention away from yourself. Other players are not important at this point. You are the one under suspicion.

I'm not trying to divert suspicion away from myself, I'm trying to show that your argument ("not done anything particularly pro-town") was rubbish. The fact that you cannot point to anyone who has done anything "particularly pro-town" proves I am right.

As for "flying under the radar", if you mean I have laid low - you must be kidding, right? If you mean that I have not come under suspicion - you must be kidding right? Which do you mean, and how on earth do you justify it?

Show me where, prior to today, you have ever come under suspicion. You have been the spearhead of every lynch this game.

FFS read the game! Just look at the vote counts and you will see that I have been under suspicion on every day.

The core is that Mr Stoofer was the one who pushed most for the two lynches we made so far, which I think are both town.

Well, I was on the Guardian lynch, who I think was Scum and so did the

majority

of the Town.

I was not on Musher's lynch, although I was in favour of it - again, as were the

majority

.

Man, you got us. No one would ever suspect scum to support the majority. I bow before your superior reasoning.

You are being stupid now. I am not saying I am innocent because of this: I am just saying that you can't accuse me (only) of being scum because of this.

These were my honest suspects. Unlike a lot of players in this game who have sat back an let others -i.e. me make the running (and you are a little bit guily of this, lord_hur) I have tried to keep this game moving forward by posting my suspicions and my reasons.

Not really helpful.

and various scumtells I can't be bothered to recap.

I know you are 99% confirmed Town, but if you weren't then this sort of thing would look really scummy.

That's helpful.

That's not helpful.

Silly. I am not a good player. Look at my wiki page: you will see that a have lost

a lot

more games than I have one. My custom title "Less than scum" was given to me because I was not worthy of a full "Mafia Scum" title. The reasons people like playing with me is not because I am good at this game but because I am active and keep the game moving.

What do you want us to say to that?

lord_hur was saying "I am a "great" (his words) player and therefore the fact that I haven't caught scum shows I must be scum. This was to show that the logic was wrong. (Also I caught scum on day 1.)


_______________________________________________

Your post dopes not actually present any reasons why I might be scum (read it again, it doesn't.) It just makes silly points about what I have said, because it doesn't put what I said in context. I have refuted every point you have made against me -- several of which you have admitted to be wrong, and others (e.g. your claim that I have not been under suspicion) are just stupid.)

I think you must be scum. No-one is that bad at this game.

vote: stark

.

[Mr Stoofer]

Are there any points against me that I have not successfully refuted? stark's post 1026 was just a list of quotes from me and did not contain any arguments why I might be Scum.

@Lawrencelot: Guardian pretended to be a Cop with a guilty result on another player. I picked up on this and then he started acting oddly so I pointed out that I had worked out what he was doing. He admitted that he was pretending to be a Cop with a guilty result when he was not -- he then claimed Miller (the most obvious Scum claim ever from someone caught in a blatant lie). To those who have questioned whether he was Scum: how much more proof do you need that someone is Scum?

[Mr Stoofer]

I will claim after the following events have occurred:

1. Someone has listed all the points against me that (they think) I have not refuted. [Please number each point when you do so.]
2. I have had a chance to respond.
3. A significant number of people still want me to claim after I have done this.

[Mr Stoofer]

Mr Stoofer, could you briefly comment my post 1024 ? I think it's a fairly important point.

Sorry, I missed that because it was at the bottom of the page. Yes I think you are right and I was wrong (sorry).

Mr Stoofer: what do you think strife/VoD is: scum or town?

I think he was Town for two reasons:
1. TVoD's interactions with Guardian day 1. TVoD was a very unsophisticated player. I do not think he was bussing.
2. Because strife was nightkilled - and he was the only kill that night. Occam's razor tells us to assume for now that he was town.

[Mr Stoofer]

If we are in LyLo, then there is a great deal to be said for a massclaim now.

How do you reconcile this with your current reluctance for claiming? The question is twofold :

- If you think we are in LyLo, why don't you advise a massclaim now? What has changed ?

- If you suggested a massclaim back then, I assumed it was because you thought that revealing your own role would not hurt town that much. But your current play strongly suggests that you do mind revealing it, and that it is such an important one that it should not be disclosed, even in LyLo. I am not asking (at least as of now) what your role is, but as you were asking what elements I have against you, this inconsistence is one of them.

I realise now that we are probably are in LyLo, in which case I would be in favour of a massclaim; because I think that avoiding a mislynch is more important now than keeping power roles hidden. This is not "inconsistency" - I had got my maths wrong and hadn't realised we were in LyLo.

I am not in favour of a Stoofer-only claim. If we are going to do this at all, I think we should do a proper massclaim (I don't mind going first). Having the roles dribble out by individual claims helps the Scum to formulate their fake claims. One big mass claim makes that much harder.

Since then, I've gone through all of your posts and you have done absolutely no scum hunting. Instead, I've seen a lot of theorising and misdirection. I don't know how you can think you've been pro-town, when all you've been doing is making a lot of noise. How about you actually tell us who you think is scum now. I'm still waiting on the results of your reread from back then...

This is unfair: I have been the (almost sole) target of attack since then and so I have naturally concentrated on defending myself. Would you have rather I had ignored the questions asked of me?

I think stark is Scum - his anti-Stoofer posts don't make sense. I think he is going all out for one last lynch to win the game. And naturally he has chosen the living player who has been the most vocal in the game and had the most suspicion put against him (i.e. me).

Right, Stoofer says VoD was town, yet he went after him for at least 10 pages. Do you admit you were wrong about him on Day 1 Mr Stoofer?

Certainly. I said early on Day 2 that I thought VoD was town - that was effectively an admission of error. Remember, for most of Day 1, I thought Guardian was the Cop. Once we discovered that Guardian was lying Scum, I went back and did a re-read and concluded that VoD was town on the basis of his interactions with Guardian.

Mr Stoofer: were you defending Guardian here because you thought he was a cop?

Yes, of course.

[Mr Stoofer]

Have we all agreed that we are doing a massclaim?

And if so, are we going to use the normal order (with me first)?

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, I'll go as soon as hasdgfas answers the above.

For the avoidance of doubt, "Normal order" means each claimer chooses the next person to claim.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'd have been content to go with an order that lord_hur came up with on his own, but there is no way I am agreeing to stark's order under any circumstances.

[Mr Stoofer]

unless lord_hur wants it different. We got a confirmed protown here, let's make use of it.

Sounds good, at least we'd be sure that the order was not chosen by scum.

Mr. Stoofer
stark
HackerHuck
hasdgfas
Lawrencelot

Lovely.

Name

: Sudi

Occupation

: Scribe

Game Role

: Townie (i.e. my role PM follows the one in the front post)

Eats

: Fish

I am going to be away, with no Internet access whatsoever, for 10 days from today.