Open 66 - Quack Multiball (Game over) before 584

[Aegor]

/confirm if we need to in-thread as well. I have a question though: you said that actively lurking is acceptable as long as you are notified. However, would you let us know if someone picked up a prod/responded?

[Aegor]

Mod, people might have to confirm by PM, but evilgorrilazz or however you spell his name did post in-thread.

[Aegor]

Is this game going to start soon?

[Aegor]

/agree. There is only one person, and I think that you could start looking for a replacement now if he STILL hasn't confirmed.

[Aegor]

Yay!

[Aegor]

Vote: Pink Puppy

I investigated him last night. He's scum.

[Aegor]

Well, we nabbed at least 2 of the four scum. Let's wrap this up.

[Aegor]

Pink Puppy (1) Aegor
Aegor (1) hasdgfas
(No vote) Jdodge, Pink Puppy, Cream147, Gorrad, zu_Faul, Glork, PyroDwarf, Near, muffinhead, Evilgorrilaz
12 players. 7 votes to lynch.

yet you clearly weren't investigating closely enough to figure out the correct gender

If I say someone is male, then they are. I feel like voting you for denying my omnipotence. However, I have, in my incredibly mercy, granted you my state of temporary clemency with regard to this issue.

[Aegor]

Agreed. However, the votecount is so pretty that I want it to stay there.


Also, my information tells me that Hasd is a fugly man-slut. This is code for scum.

Unvote, Vote: hasdasdkfasdjf;akdsfjdsafas

[Aegor]

Tyler, if you go to the Open queue and /in for a game and let Thesp know what happened, he'll bump you to the top.

[Aegor]

Vote: Near

We need to lynch someone soon.

[Aegor]

We have found certain scum. Let's lynch Near now.

[Aegor]

Aegor ur logic makes no sense whatsoever, how do we benefit from a lynch this quick. Also what do we have to lose if we leave this for another week. Its only page 3 and barly out of rv stage so untill u give me a reason as to voting near out so early im not gonna have a part in it.This is thye reason u get my vote.

What are you talking about? Near has completely outed himself as scum, and you have just become a prime candidate for a lynch tomorrow for not realizing the completely opposite.

Let's see what other scumtells you've dropped in this post:

1) You say blatantly pro-town things. We have scum. Lynch the scum. We might as well lynch him, then start tomorrow as if it were Day 1. We can't profit from connections unless the other mafioso is really dumb. Thus lynching Near now would be no different than lynching him tomorrow.

2) My vote was clearly laid there (well, to me anyway) to see how people would respond. I have done this every game recently, and I'm amazed that people

still

think I'm serious. The fact that you are willing to completely ignore the entire page about Near's terrible idea and jump on that is strange at best, scummy at worst.

Also, I hate it when people say useless things like "let's not lynch right away, it's better to have long days" or "quicklynches are always bad." Your post came off as incredibly insincere and a shameless attempt to be pro-town.

However, after composing this post, I do realize how my desire to lynch quickly may come across. I actually thought it likely that I could be his partner bussing, but that didn't make sense. I could be a member of the opposite mafia though.

[Aegor]

Well tell me what this has got to do with the questions I asked Instead of answering what i said?
He may look like scum but with more time we would
a: become 110% that he is scum instead of 75%

I answered your questions. Also, you make this assertion yet do nothing to back it up - why would we automatically be 110% (WTF?) sure that he is scum with more time?

b: He isnt scum and we relise that after explination and lynch somone else who is more likly to be scum.

Yes, namely you at this point.

also for us to lynch him right now doesnt really give us an idea of who else is scum whether he is pro-town or not. This is y lynching him tomorro or in a week will give us an advantage.

So? We can find out tomorrow. If Near is in fact scum, then no buddy in their right mind would ever make a connection that is detectable between them. There are two scum groups, which makes it more difficult to detect who is scum based solely on Day 1 discussion.

Because I think he was cofused with my test. He probably thought that hasd was scum (on the other team maybe) and hasd fell into the trap without knowing what the trap was because I said things like "check your pm and re-read my post". Then he found out from mod's post that townies have no way to tell quack from a doctor.

Uhm, not quite. He said BEFORE the mod posted that there was no difference between the PMs, so I don't understand how he fell into the trap. Could you elaborate?

Near's plan was really, really, really stupid (as it would only have worked if only quack and doctors had read the second post) but how in the world is it scummy?
This bandwagon formed too quickly.

It formed quickly, but it was perfectly justifiable in my opinion. There were a few HUGE problems with the plan.

1) The way it was presented indicated that Near actually didn't really know how it worked. There was nothing to suggest that it was a trap over a failed attempt as scum. How on earth were we supposed to know that it was a trap? It was such a terrible idea that it was bound to be criticized. In addition, "it was a trap" is a really convenient out. But I have made lynch-1s on the first page and other unorthodox things as a real attempt to gather reactions, so it is a valid explanation in some circumstances.

2) What exactly was the trap? I still don't understand what on earth this plan would accomplish. It was absurd.

3) It puts us in a crappy situation. If we are all supposed to claim quack if we can't tell, then we are going to have some people who have lied about their alignment. It will just be a disorganized mess, with people being able to take advantage of the fact that the massclaim was completely useless and muddling.

I'm not certain about my suspicions, and I don't want Near lynched just yet. Sorry if that comes off to you as scummy, but I think what would really come off as scummy, is if I put Near on L-1. You certainly threw a fair few FoSes around though...I will unvote, now we're out of the random voting stage.

Yet he is scummy enough to justify claiming that his post is indefensible? Strange...

[Aegor]

Near, what I don't understand is what it accomplishes. The mafia would just wait until a few people claimed. Also, pro-town people would be lying, which is just a terrible thing to do before there's any need. Basically, there was zero chance of catching scum, and it would have confused town incredibly. This is honestly the worst plan I've ever heard, and Glork can attest to the fact that there were some pretty bad ones in Martyr Mafia.

Unvote, Vote: Muffin

FoS: Near

for suggesting a supremely bad plan that I still don't think is unscummy.

[Aegor]

Near, you are not making any sense. All of the doctors would have claimed quack. All of the scum would have also claimed quack. What exactly have we accomplished?

[Aegor]

Yes, but the problem is this:

1) Townies might claim doctor, because the PMs are the same.
2) Mafia would probably claim quack anyway, because you said that if you don't know your role claim quack (how would someone not know their role? Oh yeah, the PMs are the same...). But, just in case they didn't get it, you TOLD them to claim quack. STUUUPIIIID....

[Aegor]

Seriously. Go back and read my post again. Read until you get it.

I did, and I learned that it was not only a bad trap, but it was simply a plan that was entirely RETARDED.

There was NO trap. NO scum in this game is mentally challenged, so NO ONE would fall for the pathetic excuse that was your plan. It was stupid and detrimental to the town because now I'm in a position of wondering whether that moment was induced by a state of delirium or whether you are just scum.

Near, you proposed the plan that easily wins the dumbest thing I've ever read that was serious in a mafia game. You can't post one-line posts that don't explain anything or that just say that you're voting for someone. Sorry, you're on the defensive, and rightly so. You need to start giving answers. Let's start with my questions.

[Aegor]

Aegor, two main points in your post directly conflicts with each other. You say that even townies, who actually have the pm to reference to, may claim doctor despite my post YET you say all scums will claim quacks. Furthermore, what makes you think scums will listen to me?

No, they are not contradictory at all. Perhaps I wasn't clear. You are expecting the mafia to be so dumb as to claim doc. If you are relying on that stupidity, you must also take into account that townies are so stupid as to claim doc. Basically, you completely ignored the chance that town would make a mistake, and at the same time minimized the chance that the plan was useful by telling scum exactly what to do.

But there is also a chance that he did neither of these things and actually think that towns people can tell quacks from doctors. (Incidentally, I believe that this probability was quite high because I was initially confused and needed to check my pm to verify that mod was indeed being sarcastic)

There was NO chance of this happening. You wanted everyone to read your post carefully, in which you claim that if you don't know what your role is, claim quack. Your attempt to make it look natural failed because

the only way in which someone couldn't know their role is if the quack and doctor PMs were the same.

At the worst case scenario, this would be useless. But I didn't think it can hurt town.

What happens if a townie claims doctor? Considering the odds that you were betting on (i.e., scum being stupid), I'm surprised that you didn't account for this possibility at all.


JDodge's post made perfect sense. You told scum what to do. You sprang the trap you yourself set.

[Aegor]

I agree - PD's vote was really weird. You're not supposed to admit that you don't care who gets lynched.

How on earth was it detrimetral to the town?

I pointed out the risks and the fact that the plan was confusing and would have been if we had followed it, etc. There were no identifiable benefits.

I was expecting both townies and scums to be smart. If you didn't have the townie pm, and if all townies kept their mouth shut and went along with the plan and kept claiming their roles, how can the scums know whether townies can tell quacks from doctors? Like I said, they could have asked the mod for clarification, but other than that, there WAS some chance that some of the scums would try to go along with this.

1) You said, "if you can't tell." There would be no reason to say that if the PMs were different, because then you

could

tell.
2) Having the PMs be different would break the game incredibly, as was pointed out. Scum would probably know that.
3) You told scum to claim quack anyway, so they didn't even have to think about what they did.

You can call my plan stupid, worst idea of all time, whatever. But if you read the posts so far carefully, I am confident that you would find motivation behind my "stupid" plan.

I'm not saying that you didn't have motivation. I found it. That doesn't make the plan good, however.

As for Jdodge, I still don't see your answer. Can you please recap what you meant by "Why are you trying to help a scum"?

I replied to this, although you asked JDodge. You can read my answer, which will be the same as his.

Near, I actually understand your explanation and have no problem with what you were

trying

to do, I just hope you realize that your plan was incoherent (thus unbelievably scummy), and in general not a very good idea.

[Aegor]

Dude. Think... "if you can't tell" was a message to the townies, true, but I tried to construct it in a way that scums cannot tell if "townies can tell". I did this by adding the phrase "for example, if you are werewolves"

I don't think that you understand what I'm saying. So here it is:

your subtlety failed

. No one would have fallen for that because it was so obvious.

Even though I cannot agree with the word "incredibly", the key word in your sentence that actually supports my plan is "probably". "Probably" was enough to try this.

There would be no point to the game if the PMs were the same. The mod sarcasm told us that they were the same. You ASKED the mod if he was being sarcastic. I'll rephrase: there was no way this plan would have worked.

What??

Read what you quoted in this very post. You said that werewolves should claim quacks.

[Aegor]

[quote="What was obvious about it, exactly. Are you trying to say that all scums would have known that I was speaking to townies when I said "if for some reason you can't tell (for example if you are werewolves"? Then how come you didn't understand it before I had to explain everything to you? You keep changing your positions, and it doesn't bother me all that much, but none of your positions is correct. [/quote]

You made it so obvious that the roles PMs were the same. The fact that you mentioned werewolves did not make the fact that you implied they were the same any less obvious. You said, "If you can't tell the difference...," which could ONLY be talking about doctors/quacks anyway. If the role PMs were different, then EVERYONE could have told the difference and it wouldn't be worth mentioning. I understand your plan, which is why it's so idiotic. My position is correct. You TOLD people that the PMs were the same by being so blatant about it.

Your conclusion is completely dependent on the premise that absolutely everyone would know for SURE that the pms would be the same. Yet, you and many people have accused me of being a scum because they thought I didn't know whether townies can tell quacks from doctors. Stop being contradictory.

The PMs were clearly the same, which is why I couldn't believe how moronic your post was. I could not fathom that anyone would be so bizarre as to think that the game would be broken by the mod. I'm not contradictory: I still think that only the most oblivious player, namely you, would think that they would be different. Everyone WOULD know they were the same because the game wouldn't function otherwise.

Since I asked werewolves to claim quacks, they will definitely claim quacks. Yes... you make perfect sense.

What else would they claim? Let's see what they know...they know that everyone else will claim quacks, and they know the PMs are the same. Hmm...

[Aegor]

[quote"Evil"]I am not implying anything, just saying if he turns up town we could lynch whoever hammered him. [/quote]

Hmm...I am going to do something unorthodox here. In one of my other ongoing games, Evil hammered a townie. This obvious double-standard is coming off as really scummy to me. So scummy that he deserves a vote at this point.

@Glork's Plan: I haven't analyzed it. I tend to not like plans like this because they can be broken, but I am more than willing if someone else does the number-crunching. I could later, but I am very tired right now.

I agree with Zu over Cream, and the latter's vote is iffy and deserving of an

FoS

. I thought that Near's plan was really scummy (and then later, I thought it was just not very good at all). But I wouldn't fault someone for realizing that it was a trick.

[Aegor]

I already thought this statement was scummy. Even without the meta.

Yeah, I know that. BTW Evil, meta is completely allowed, even if I don't know your alignment in either one of these games. The fact that you completely contradicted yourself about a POLICY lynch is legitimately scummy. It's not deserving of a vote, so you can hold that part against me. I was on crack/got no sleep yesterday, but I still misspoke in that regard.

[Aegor]

Posting later today (I am flying home). I'm sorry about my spotty/non-existent activity over the last week or so, I'm really trying my best but we're flying American, things are getting rescheduled, etc. I apologize.

[Aegor]

Posting my list tomorrow. Sorry for pushing this back one more day, but my flight got delayed in all the cancellation madness (of all the times to fly AA).

[Aegor]

Near (2) hasdgfas, PyroDwarf
Aegor (1) muffinhead
JDodge (1) Near
muffinhead (4) Glork, Aegor, Gorrad, Evilgorrilaz
PyroDwarf (2) Pink Puppy, zu_Faul
zu_Faul (1) Cream147
Evilgorrilaz (1) Jdodge
12 players total. 7 votes to lynch.

Muffin-Evil
Zu-Cream
Gorrad-PD
Me-Hasd
Glork-Near
JDodge-PP

would be mine. Clearly, I find some pairings more important than others.

[Aegor]

Aren't the groupings finalized now?

[Aegor]

I never said that we should use mine. But don't we have all of them? Why would you post an utterly unhelpful "Not voting until blahblahblah" instead of suggesting something productive, like a way of finalizing the pairings or something?

[Aegor]

I do believe I did just that.

How would we implement that? I don't understand.

[Aegor]

Wouldn't be easier to pick one, then tweak it as necessary? The voting would take a long time, especially because we would need to eliminate those two players from people's lists, remake them without the two players, repeat, etc. Why not vote on one, then make changes as we wish? It seems way easier.

I guess I'm not sure about how useful the process will be in gathering information. It seems so drawn out and convoluted that I can't imagine myself being able to glimpse helpful information/connections about/between people through their pairings.

[Aegor]

I don't think this process is necessarily meant to be great for collecting information. However, it does increase the probability of a crosskill.

Hmm...I still don't see that that has a great chance of happening and is worth the effort put in, but maybe someone could come up with numbers or something.

Also, I'm not sure you understood muffinhead. I believe muffinhead has already produced the list based on the pairs that were voted the most. That's what the list in his post is.

Oh, I knew that. I didn't realize that Muffin hadn't posted a list earlier.


Okay, how about this? We all vote on a list, and the list with the most votes is the one we choose. We then make adjustments as necessary. It's not perfect, but if people say what changes they want made at the same time they vote, it should work well enough, right?

[Aegor]

How do you want to determine how we make adjustments? I don't think that is practical as we will get no result if everyone sees another fualt in the list we vote for.

Oh, I know it has its drawbacks. But if we decide on the most likely pairings, then everyone has to submit a new list with the remaining players, and then we need to pick the most likely pairings from that, then resubmit if necessary...It just seems so drawn out. However, if no one else has a problem with it, then I'll definitely do it. It's not so much a personal problem with it as skepticism that it is efficient.

[Aegor]

Sounds good. There are worse things than being paired with puppy. I am accepting full responsibility for this, because it may be the vote that puts us into night. Follow JDodge's plan.

Vote: No lynch

Mod: Prod/replace inactives as necessary during the night phase please, as you might have seen, our plan depends on choices being sent in

[Aegor]

I agree with Gorrad. We should also consider the possibility of scum killing Near and Evil, with quacks as the scum's partner. I believe that this has the same result as our NK situation. However, Evil and Near were the people I would think to be those least likely to be NKed. I think that either scum forfeited a NK (unlikely), or both kills were blocked (likely).

[Aegor]

If that were the case, then I think that we would have more flavor text, e.g. "Stabbed" if killed by a Serial Killer or "Shot" if killed by the mafia. Given that we just know they were killed, we probably won't know if they were double-killed or not.

[Aegor]

Me neither. Perhaps I am stupid...

[Aegor]

@Glork: Sure, that case is possible. However, I'm unconvinced that scum would/would not deviate from the plan. Also, I fail to see how Near and Evil are at all decent nightkills. They would seem like the least likely victims apart from muffin. I can't get around that.

@Muffin's idea: I don't understand why it is so bad if we're not pairing up... At worst, the person dies, in which case we know Muffin is either scum or quack, which is what we know now.

Mod, does someone die if they are targeted twice by Mafia/WW and are protected once by a doctor?

This question is actually relevant, I believe.

Why is a lynch, then following Muffin's idea such a bad idea if we aren't going to pair up anyway? I'm sorry that I may be a bit slow here.

[Aegor]

Thank you. I should have checked first, but thanks anyway.

[Aegor]

Why on earth would scum kill Near and Evil? It doesn't make any sense. Even if they were their partners, I would think that scum would kill other people... In addition, although Glork presents the scenarios well, that is assuming perfect logicality on the part of the mafia.

[Aegor]

Muffin, could you at least attempt to write with correct spelling and grammar? I'm sure there is a reason, but it would help immensely.

[Aegor]

Hello...hello....hlo....lo...o...

[Aegor]

Agreed hasd. This is getting ridiculous.

Look, it's really easy. We don't target anyone. We let JD and Muffin target each other. If both die, then their alignment is revealed. The end. If neither one dies, then they are a mafia sub-team. Did I miss something? It's really easy.

Also, I don't like PP or JDodge.

[Aegor]

I agree. In addition, they will just be a thorn in our side until confirmed. Why not have them target each other? What is the worse thing that could happen? In addition, I don't see why scum would waste a NK on them given that it would throw you off. I see no reason why they would feel compelled to kill only those two.

[Aegor]

Why would you be willing to count on cross-kills when we have days to scumhunt as well? I don't find Muffin and JD the most scummy people, and I'm sure that other players (who could be scum) feel the same.

[Aegor]

JDodge (1) Glork
Gorrad (2) JDodge, hasdgfas
hasdgfas (1) Gorrad
(No vote) Pink Puppy, Cream147, Aegor, zu_Faul, PyroDwarf, muffinhead
10 players. 6 votes to lynch.

This really, really, REALLY makes me think that Aegor is scum. Two dead bodies (or a dead body and a scumbag from the opposing team set up for lynch) is the very likely outcome of this, and Aegor's suggestion of it makes me wonder.

I'm confused here, perhaps I'm not seeing this. Have we agreed that these two are either quacks or scum? If they target each other, then we either lose two quacks, in which case we don't have to worry about the presence of the inept doctors after this, in addition to getting a great chance of hitting scum tomorrow, or one/two of them die(s) and is (are) revealed as scum. Or, neither one dies and we know that they are a scumteam. I don't see what town has to lose. Then again, I don't want to do this if it is such a terrible idea, so please point out any major problems.

If they are both quacks, which is the worst-case scenario, then scum can't bother with that anymore. We can finally get to scumhunting, which I find way more effective than these elaborate pairings and plans. In addition, with no quacks, it will be easier to do so (scumhunt). Also, remember that the two opposing mafia groups want to lynch the other mafia first.

[Aegor]

EBWOP: OR, if they are both quacks, we get an additional two bodies due to mafia kills (assuming that the mafia groups think they are both quacks as well). With four kills tonight, we will end up, again in a worst-case scenario, with 2 WWs, 2 mafia, and 2 doctors. Although that is a precarious position, I honestly think that the town will be helped by the mafia groups which are desperate to eliminate each other by that point.

[Aegor]

Fine, I'll talk with him tonight to make sure that we're on the same page, because he hasn't been very helpful today, otherwise I wouldn't be in this position.

Also, okay. Honestly, I don't really care what happens with JDodge and Muffin. I will laugh if they are still alive tomorrow, but okay. Your posts didn't make any sense insofar as they didn't address why killing JDodge and Muffin was so important. That aside, I am now completely open to any plan anyone suggests.

[Aegor]

But then wouldn't one of them die? I can't imagine a situation in which neither dies unless they are a scum team.

Anyway, that's irrelevant at this point. I'll do whatever. Just know that I honestly think that having them target each other is the best plan. I'm willing to sacrifice both quacks in order for a more lucid game after.

[Aegor]

No kidding. Can we pick something please.

[Aegor]

Maybe Open games are not meant for you.

Except that I like them...What I don't like is the complete absence of scumhunting, and the interminable decision of what to do. My solution, although unpopular, is very simple and has a clear outcome. So as I said, I'm really open, but I don't think that we need to discuss this more, especially at the expense of actually determining scum. Our strategy at this point should be based on how we feel about the players themselves, not some attempt to trip scum up through the setup.

[Aegor]

Okay, Aegor. Do you have compelling reason to believe that JD and Muffin are both scum?

If yes, then why aren't you just trying to get them lynched to begin with?
If no, then why are you setting up a plan where QUACKS DIE and SCUMS DO NOT?

No, I do not have reason to believe that they are both scumz. No, I do not have reason to believe that they are definitely quacks.

As I said, and I'm being perfectly honest here, I would fully be willing to sacrifice two doctors (as unlikely as it is) to eliminate any confusion about the quacks. Situation analysis:

JDodge and Muffin both quacks. They kill each other. Scum will either kill them or kill someone else. If they choose to do the latter, they could either crosskill or kill doctors. Worst-case scenario, we lose 2 quacks and 2 doctors.

Both are scum from the same team. They don't kill each other. They target someone else. Worst-case scenario, they kill a doctor. The other scum team can either target them or target someone else. Worst-case scenario, we lose two doctors. In the meantime, we have identified two scum (please correct me if I'm wrong here).

Both are scum, but from different teams. They could kill each other, in which case we eliminate two scumz, or they could kill different people. Worst-case scenario, we lose two townies but have still identified two scumz (please correct me if I'm wrong here).

As I said, I'm not even trying to hide the risks here. I'm perfectly willing to have two doctors die because then we know what is going on with JDodge and Muffin. If they don't target anyone and the scum teams (which could include one of them) target the same one, then that one dies and we still don't know what to do with the other one.

So, barring crosskills and all the other things that would permit us to determine their alignment definitely, sure, doctors could die. I'm willing to have that happen. I'm also willing to determine a plan for the other players.

This idea may be terrible to you, just as everyone thought Near's was. But I definitely have reason for it, and I think that it at least is simple and provides results tomorrow. Then again, I'm really done trying to push it (this post was an explanation of my rationale, rather than a persuasive attempt to get other on board). If someone else comes up with something better, then I'm all for it. But I would like to start scumhunting at this point. So could we please wrap up the discussion about what to do during the night and start taking advantage of our day?

Pst- Because he's scum.

Well, duh. I claimed right here, and no one seemed to notice:

Fine, I'll talk with him tonight to make sure that we're on the same page, because he hasn't been very helpful today, otherwise I wouldn't be in this position.

Man, it's right there in front of everyone. It's so obvious that you don't have to provide any justification for your vote whatsoever. Oh, wait, you still do.

[Aegor]

Oh, okay. Just making sure. I'm surprised that no one else did.

[Aegor]

@Muffin: Scum want everyone dead. Even quacks. They my choose to leave some players alive, or may choose to leave some roles alive for their benefit.

@Gorrad: Good to know. I'll hold you to that later, and the lack of votes suggest that the reasons are not obvious.

@Cream: lol, yes it was. Just it case that wasn't clear.

Interesting. So we're 18 pages and well into Day Two and you have no reason to have a read on either player?

I have no read on Muffin. For the most part, he seems genuine, but his thoughts are usually not that deep to me. In other words, they could easily be made up by scum. I would have a read on JD if he would post.

Quack + Scum who kills elsewhere = both alive, both assumed to be scum by your plan. If we lynch the Quack instead of the scum D3, we're pretty much dead in the water unless we get hella crazy crosskills.

Thank you, that's what I was missing. If everyone was so opposed to it, I wondered why I couldn't see why.

Thank you Glork and zu for finally helping me understand. As I said before, I have no intention of pushing my flawed plan forward, but I would appreciate it if we could settle on something with some level of efficiency.

[Aegor]

You want JD and muffin to target each other and the rest of us don't target??

Seems like the worst possible plan to me. And the most pro-scum.

We can target, that's fine. The only important part of my plan is that all actions relating to JD and Muffin happen internally or through mafia. Wasn't that apparent?

I disagree with that list, as it pairs me with Aegor.

Are you against the list because you don't want to be paired with me, or you don't even want me to be in one at all?

Let's lynch Aegor.

I don't like this vote. I also don't like Gorrad's. I'm done with my plan, and clearly none of you wants to do it. I'm fine with that. But I won't pretend that I don't think it's valid. In fact, it might even be reasonable if the rest of us (=/= JD, Muffin) target each other in some order. That reduces the chances of -2 quacks and -2 doctors even more.

Why are we lynching Aegor again? I'm not seeing the case on him.

Thank you. For the record, there has been no case on me thus far.

Is that scumminess or is it stupidity? I'm more inclined to believe the latter and continue going after Gorrad. He seems strangely less adamant now that it's been said that he's tunnel-visioned as scum

There are several reasons why I backed off:
1) I realized that the plan had flaws, but didn't actually see what they were until Glork and zu pointed them out.
2) I realized that people found it scummy. Obviously, I would back off either as town or scum here. However, it isn't worth getting myself lynched over, especially when I am looking for some solution rather than a particular course of action.
2) Backing off meant that we could stop discussing my plan, and start discussing others. I still think that we have spent way too long on this, and I don't see why we can't decide something and actually start scumhunting. By not pushing my plan any more, I hope that we can at least stop discussing its validity for the moment. If you find it scummy and want to bring it up after we decide something to do, fine. But could we please focus on one thing, and make progress?

[Aegor]

Aegor, I want you dead. If we have to not lynch, I don't want to be paired with you, 'cause you're scum.

What exactly is the problem with being paired with me? If I'm scum, then it should be obvious regardless of with whom I'm paired. What exactly is the danger? If I'm scum and you're worried that I'll NK you, then I've already outed myself. If I haven't outed myself, then the pairing system is completely useless anyway.

Yeah, it's scuminess. It's stupidity too, but scum is the much more likely option, as they would want optimal kills (AKA JD and Muffin targetting each other).

Except that one may be scum and the other a quack, or both could be from the same team, etc.

[Aegor]

I object to the pairing because it puts me against someone who will kill me. I don't like that. I mean, I'll do so if y'all really want me to, but I seriously would rather have him paired with someone like PD who I also find VERY scummy.

Wouldn't the pairing system ensure that I get caught? If it does, then have no fear, even if I were scum. If it doesn't, then clearly it's a system that we shouldn't use.

Of course, best solution is to lynch Aegor. I really like that idea. Let's do that.

Yes, let's lynch me on the mountain of evidence that you have. Perhaps you think repetition makes up for it.

[Aegor]

By the way, I'll probably think about this game some more, especially because I have been so caught up in plan-forming that I myself have neglected scumhunting.

@Gorrad: 1) Why do you think that you staying alive is more important than nabbing a scum, presumably me, through our plan?

2) I don't like that fact that you seem to be taking advantage of the opportunity here. Although PP believes that you sincerely think I'm scum, I have yet to be convinced of even that.

[Aegor]

What opportunity? I've lead the charge against you!

Because, Aegor, I'm the one who's leading attacks on you. If more people were supporting some of this stuff, I might not be so afraid we'd lose, but as such if I stop pushing this point, right now I think it'd just die out. Which is BAD.

Yes, of course. You have led the charge. The charge based on

nothing

. Do you see what you've done here? You didn't like what I suggested for the night, and neither did the other players. You capitalized on that: By saying that I was obvious scum, you hoped that others would just agree that the plan I suggested was scummy and push the lynch that way. You have offered

no

evidence that I'm scum. Saying that the plan was terrible (which, in a way, it was) is not enough, because I didn't suggest it as scum. I suggested it as a doctor/quack. Your attacks consist of the following "Let's lynch Aegor and target people randomly. Let's end the day and kill Aegor. Aegor is obviously scum." Do you honestly think that arguments of that sort are valid? How am I supposed to explain why I did things, my process, etc. (which

any

pro-town player would want to know) when you don't even offer up ways to do so? You have left no room on this wagon of yours, and that's why I don't like it.

[Aegor]

I'm surprised that posting is so low. It would be nice if that were to stop.

[Aegor]

So what are we doing this night?

[Aegor]

That's definitely not "scum talk".

That is so true; basically, you are completely right with your posts this page.

@Gorrad: Wait, targeting randomly is suddenly way more pro-town than my plan? Psh. I have a feeling that we won't be able to gain anything, especially when a little less than half the players will be outright lying.

@Muffin: I am starting to like your posts.

I can see why we would want to use Muffin/JD to target other people, but that's really dangerous unless we use it as a cop investigation and decide today whom he should investigate.

[Aegor]

I think he might be, which would make him a quack. But I'm really not sure about JDodge, especially because he must be allergic to posting.

[Aegor]

If JDodge doesn't start posting soon, I seriously considering voting him and doing a re-read. But I still think that we need to do one of two things:
a) Decide whom to lynch, then decide what plan for the night we wish to follow
b) Decide what plan for the night we wish to follow, then decide whom to lynch

Either one works for me, given that we seemed to have lost the momentum for determining a plan.

For the record, Gorrad and JDodge are not looking that good to me right now.

[Aegor]

OMG, muffin, don't target anyone. OMG.


Anyway, I don't like Gorrad's response. He endlessly repeats that I'm scum, says that he won't stop trying to get me lynched, etc. Then no one joins his bandwagon, and he just leaves instead of helping to determine a decent plan (remember, he is voting me because mine wasn't) or even pushing for my lynch. Sketchy.

[Aegor]

I've BEEN pushing your lynch, what do you mean I left? I'm still voting you, remember?

When I die, make sure Aegor and zu_Faul are on the chopping block for tommorow.

Right, because posting one-line arguments, i.e. "Omg!1! Obvobv scum1 Lynch!1!!" and then disappearing when no one agrees with you enough to carry the momentum forward is really "pushing" my lynch. You said that you would not stop otherwise it wouldn't happen. When it didn't happen, you....stopped.

[Aegor]

Gorrad, you're jumping around. If you, JDodge, and muffin are all alive tonight, whom would the mafia kill?

Also, I have yet to see you provide a shred of evidence against me. Please at least make an effort, for the town's sake if you are indeed town. If you are going to lynch a doctor/quack, you better have a good reason.

On top of that, I would be forced to protect someone I in all honesty REALLY find scummy. If he isn't lynched today, I would certainly hope he be nightkilled. And if I'm paired with him, that's not even possible.

Hmmm...Surprisingly, this game isn't all about you. Sometimes you have to follow along with what other people think is best for the town, not just what you desire. Also, couldn't you be a quack? I don't see any reason why you couldn't...yet apparently you already know that you're not.

[Aegor]

I don't think I'm a quack. I think JDodge and Muffin are the quacks. I've already thoroughly stated this. I suppose it's POSSIBLE I'm a quack, but I'm going to assume doctor until there's reason to believe otherwise.

If you think they are quacks, then why do you think scum will NK them? I don't understand how you can reconcile this.

P.S.: Let me see if I understand. Because I presumably didn't agree with

your

plan, I must be scum. And you're right, I pushed against it as much as you have against me. Which is not at all.

[Aegor]

Aegor, they're either scum or quacks. I don't think they're scum, but that doesn't mean the scum don't think one of them's a member of their opposing group.

Really? Your plan is betting on people disagreeing with you over the NK. Given that you yourself don't believe that they're scum, why would you be willing to bet that others do?

And yes. My plan is bloody well nigh-foolproof. I've yet to see a SINGLE reason why it wouldn't work. The fact that you opposed it for so long is, indeed, VERY scummy.

Remember when I kept saying that

I don't oppose any particular plan

? That still holds true and held true before. I don't see what you're saying. And I'm really getting tired of your refusal to explain anything.

1) I didn't oppose your plan
2) I wanted (and still, to some degree, want) my plan
3) I am now willing to go with many plans, yours is fine

So, if you want me lynched, please go ahead and show that. But right now, all I see is someone trying to take advantage of something "scummy" and start an unfounded bandwagon. Please prove me wrong, so that I can actually respond to something other than "Zomg!1!! Scum!." If the

only

reason I am scummy is that I opposed your plan, I suggest you re-read and then tell everyone that no one else has done anything worse.

[Aegor]

JDodge (1) Glork
Gorrad (4) JDodge, hasdgfas, Pink Puppy, zu_Faul
Aegor (1) Gorrad
(No vote) Cream147, Aegor, PyroDwarf, muffinhead
10 players. 6 votes to lynch.

I'm fine with this. This plan is reasonable, although I don't see what it will accomplish.

[Aegor]

Muffin, I cannot believe you just said that :shocked:. I can't believe that you find an incorrect percentage worthy of a lynch, no questions. Could you elaborate on how that is in any way on the same level as Gorrad's behavior?

[Aegor]

It really makes no sense to me that Gorrad is so convinced that he will be NK.

Others have already brought up that Gorrad also thinks scum will kill the quacks. If the sucm kill the quacks, they cannot kill Gorrad. So why is he so scared?

Because, obviously the scum will NK the weirdo maybe-quacks. Duh. Well, at least that's what Gorrad said.

Well I think Gorrad's list is from the player list in the first post.

I think that's it.

[Aegor]

I agree with Muffin, I think he is a good guy with some extremist posts and bad grammar. I am completely unconvinced that Gorrad is not scum. In fact, I'm completely convinced that he is mafia, given that he has completely ignored requests to explain himself about why I am so scummy. Also, he seems to disappear when he is not on a witch-hunt.

[Aegor]

Aegor, I've explained my case. Whether or not people think it's a good one is up to them, but I HAVE explained it.

Uhm, is this what you're talking about:

The adamant manner in which you opposed my plan earlier is all I need. Tell ya what. YOU still haven't said a single reason why it was a bad idea, and yet YOU pushed against it as much as I'm pushing against you.

In a game 22 pages long, you need more than that as support for lynching someone, sorry. In addition, your single piece of evidence is both egotistical and a complete lie, considering the fact that I never pushed against your plan in particular as much as you claim you have "pushed" against me.

I'm tired of this. I want Gorrad lynched.

Vote: Gorrad

Lynch-1, by the way. Think before you act.

[Aegor]

The plan has NO flaws. There's not a thing wrong with it. This has already been determined.

Yes, and I have absolutely no problem with going with your plan.

In my experience, those who are hesitant to go with good plans are scum. This is evident in Portal Mafia, where Guardian was opposed to Ether's endgame plan. It's evident in Ork Mafia, where I was one of the last people to agree with the massclaim. I'm sure it's evident in other games too, but those are ones that spring to mind. Just remember when I'm lynched who was against it. They're the scum.

What? I suggested a plan! How on earth is that scummy? The plan was clearly flawed, something that zu and Glork pointed out. It was clearly not the best plan, although I still think that it had merits. I dropped the plan. I now want to go with your plan. Also, your unbelievable arrogance with regard to your own plan is astounding. There are always townies on town lynches, and there are always townies who suspect other pro-town people. Why are you immediately classifying all those who disagree with you on any level as scum? I thought your plan was fine, but my plan addressed issues that I didn't think yours did.

Your plan which you keep discussing is elementary stuff. Anyone who understands the situation would go with the same plan, hence scum would happily say it. Lists don't matter, as long as we have as many protected as we can, so your list being chosen is irrelevant as well, be you scum or otherwise.

Agreed. Let's just go with this plan, by the way. I think we've decided that anyway.

Unvote, Vote: Aegor

That's two on me right now, I believe. And two-for-two without explicit reasons. But if you're waiting it out in order to find something else, go ahead. As long as what you do isn't detrimental to those trying to nab the actual bad guys.

[Aegor]

Is it because of something I did, or is it because of this:

Uh. He's awfully dense, but I just don't think he's particularly malicious right now.

It's hard for me to know where you're coming from right now, which would obviously help both of us understand what the problem is.

Let me explain my vote further: I had been suspicious of Gorrad since he started acting weird, several pages ago. I can't remember exactly how he got to four votes, but I definitely was willing to vote for him since then. I have clearly expressed suspicion of him, so the vote wasn't out of the blue, nor was it erratic or particularly dangerous, considering the lynch-1 message underneath.

I think that he's been acting both arrogant and unhelpful. He votes me not because of the problems with my plan (which is perfectly justifiable, considering how many flaws I didn't see there were), but rather because I had a problem with his plan. As far as I know, I never expressed any discontent with anyone else's plan that would justify that vote, which he never fully explained. I was always very flexible, and more interested in seeing a simple and practical plan than anything else. You can see this in most of my posts, usually because I wanted to decide on a plan that was easy to understand and implement. I still don't see what is so flawless about his plan, because that would entail:
1) Determining the alignments of JDodge and muffin
2) Preventing scum kills of townies

As far as I can tell, it doesn't ensure either of those things. My plan was an attempt, albeit rather unsuccessful, to solve problem 1. That is why I thought, and think, that my plan had some merits, and I still don't understand the perfection which is Gorrad's plan (which I never was opposed to anyway). Let me repeat this:

I'm fine with whatever plan.[/b] So what I don't understand is why Gorrad is saying that I had a HUGE problem with his plan, which I didn't. He votes me based

solely

on that after 22 pages of game, and then refuses to explain any of his decision, and then repeats with utmost confidence that I am scum, that I will be lynched and shown as mafia, etc. etc. Apparently this escaped the notice of the other players.

Now, consider my reaction to this debacle. I am here, asking for something more than a blatantly incorrect claim to back up the "case" against me that Gorrad would love to see develop into a lynch. I still have no idea how I am the absolutely most scummy person right now (remember, this was true before I just voted him), considering the dodgy moves other players have pulled. In light of all this, I found that my vote was completely justified. The next scummiest player to me would be JDodge, for sure.

Now, I wonder Glork, what was it exactly about the vote that was so problematic? Was it the timing? Was it the target? Was it the lack of explanation in that particular post? I have tried to explain the complete process in this post, but I may need to address something else as well.

[Aegor]

I don't know why, but stuff like that tends to come off as an indication of insincerity. And more often than not, I'm right about that.

Hmm...I can't really argue this, beyond saying that my attitude (as reflected in my posts) recently has been "Let's get somewhere...let's move on...let's decide something..." It was fully sincere, you have no idea how much this game has stagnated at different points in my opinion. However, feel free to interpret my statement as you wish.

[Aegor]

Fine, that's fine. Except Gorrad, wasn't your plan to have a protection circle? If your plan is flawless, why would you so willingly switch to the antithesis of what you wanted? And why would you vote me for not going with your plan that you just completely abandoned?

[Aegor]

Massclaim tomorrow sounds excellent.

[Aegor]

I'm sorry, I must have been confused as to what your plan was. I couldn't tell, mainly because you flip-flopped between telling JDodge and muffin to act like the vigs they obviously were and then telling them they shouldn't target anyone. I assume that you've finally made up your mind to follow the latter.

Also, what happens if both of them pop up alive tomorrow?

[Aegor]

Also, to Muffin and JD, y'all are pretty much vigs now seein' as how we lynch whoever you target that doesn't die. Act like it.

Here it is. This was Day 2, and then you disagreed with yourself and suddenly changed your mind.


This is the problem. Your "plan" wasn't actually a plan, apparently. It was just relating to them not targeting. That's arguably a bad idea, but whatever. I guess we can try that.

[Aegor]

Aegor, you're right, I did say that. I QUICKLY changed my mind, however, and this was never incorperated into my plan

Which is what? Just have JD and Muffin completely isolated from each other and everyone else? That's fine with me, honestly.

I agree with the rest of your post.

I also have had a sudden and inexplicable change of mind about today's lynch. I think that JDodge would be a better choice, especially because Gorrad has contributed more (even though I disagree with a lot of it). JD has been lurking like there's no tomorrow, yet has posted in GD, other games, etc. I don't think that a game like this is forgettable, and he seems to post when forced to. I think he's scum. In the worst-case scenario, he turns up quack. We lose a completely inactive player who wouldn't even be of much use tonight, or perhaps subsequent nights, because he wouldn't be targeting anyone if town anyway.

Unvote, Vote: JDodge

[Aegor]

I agree to lynching jd as i have said already, purely based on those reasons. However as gorrad said a while back the scum will just kill him tonight and if we dont then i believe we lynch him tomorrow for those reasons.

I don't see why he is a guaranteed nightkill. If anything, you would be because you are less suspicious. JDodge could be on a mafia team, be on a team with you, or simply not targeted. If anything, the mafia will try to hit doctors/scum, not quacks/scum.

[Aegor]

Right, the cases I mentioned are all valid. In addition, there is a huge chance that both groups will target the same one.

[Aegor]

The point is, if you really want both dead, we might as well lynch one of them who is scummy. According to you, the other should be dead tomorrow. I would feel more comfortable because I don't agree with you that both will be dead tomorrow for sure, and I really feel uncomfortable being in a state of limbo with regards to their alignment.

[Aegor]

Wait, what?

I want JDodge lynched because he's scum. I don't want Muffin lynched because I think he's a Quack. How does that not make sense? Why would I want to lynch someone other than those whom I think are scum?

Also, I don't see what town possibly has to gain by letting them both off the hook into the night. What happens if one of them is alive tomorrow? What? I would rather lynch a scum today and have a quack brutally murdered next night than lynch a doctor today and wake up tomorrow with a quack dead and another person of unknown alignment alive. I still don't believe you've addressed what happens if everything doesn't go exactly according to your plan.

So, who's a better lynch? Me? Sure. I'm fine with being lynched today. I'll enjoy seeing your jaw hit the table when the end-of-day scene is posted. Oh, and I'll keep up with the game because I'm sure that I'll

love

what happens tomorrow. If you want me lynched, then go ahead. Just remember that you had no backup plan when everything didn't go perfectly for you.

[Aegor]

Did you copy this from the wiki article on things scum say?

Yes, in fact, I did. More on this later.

If one of them is alive tommorow, we leave them alive another night. There are things that could make me change my mind on this, like if another possible quack is revealed, but for now that's what I think the best course of action will be.

What happens if they are alive the next night? Why keep one of them alive if we think they're scum? I don't understand why it's a bad idea for me to want to lynch JDodge, considering the fact that I think he's scum.


Okay, honestly, people need to start posting. I'm honestly at the point where I would rather be lynched. The benefits are as follows:
1) If I'm scum, you nab a scum. If I'm a doctor, you lose one of six. If I'm a quack, then there is an almost 100% chance that my partner night one is scum (is this right?)
2) I have made scummy posts, and thus should be considered scummy
3) Gorrad will probably not change his mind about me ever. I honestly don't think that some of the players will ever feel comfortable if I'm alive, and me dead will let people move on to something more productive.

Considering the fact that no one is posting, I think it's best if you just lynch someone (e.g. me) and end the day. Day 2 is outlasting its value significantly, and I would like Gorrad to be tormented forever with his mistake. Or, I would like him to move on to another likely innocent target.

In any case, I think that it's time to lynch. Please cast votes.

[Aegor]

Why not just lynch the scummy one now? Why would scum kill them if they know that it would throw you off to leave them alive?

[Aegor]

Tell me, would you honestly as scum target someone who could be protected over someone who is guaranteed not to be protected and has a (in your eyes, not mine) good shot at being a member of the opposing scumgroup? I would bloody well definitely go for the latter. Scum love kills that will go through with no doubt in a game full of doctors.

Why not scattershot? Then they don't die, and that should be good, especially because you think they are quacks.

[Aegor]

@Glork: I agree. My plan was terrible, but this one is just as bad.

[Aegor]

Yes. Scattershot our protects. It's not that hard. Have Muffin send no action. We massclaim tomorrow.

JD gets lynched today. Why is this such a bad idea?

[Aegor]

Really? JD has posted in every other game of his. And frequently. I don't see why.

[Aegor]

Gorrad (5) JDodge, hasdgfas

(Sir Tornado)

, Pink Puppy, zu_Faul, muffinhead
Aegor (1) Gorrad
JDodge (2) Aegor, Glork
(No vote) Cream147, PyroDwarf
10 players. 6 votes to lynch.

Yes. I don't considering there is a lot of material and it takes almost no effort to say something. He has no excuse for not posting.

He's also a possible scum (or quack).

[Aegor]

Perhaps that's the problem...you're not really listening to anyone else, it seems.

Welcome to the game, SirT. I enjoy seeing you again.

Other players need to post. At this point, I think that one of {JD, Gorrad, Aegor} should be lynched. I'm obviously in support of JD, but perhaps others have a better case on a better candidate.

[Aegor]

It's true. I don't think it's a slip.

[Aegor]

You posted a week ago that work, school, and hating playing with Glork were bothering you. You said your schedule had cleared up. You have made very little contribution to the game (in my opinion) in terms of original thoughts, and you haven't particularly demonstrated any interest in hunting scum. You seem to be posting minimally. I think that you are a good lynch for today.

[Aegor]

JD, given that you are EITHER a quack or scum, I think that that already is an iffy scenario. Compounded with your lurking (you posted in other games more frequently), I think that you are scum. You have demonstrated no pro-towniness as far as I can tell, and that is worthy of note, as is the uncertainty about your alignment.

Please don't assume I'm focusing completely on you. Although I want you lynched, I am completely aware of the lurking of other players, and have no intent of letting that continue.

[Aegor]

I like Sir T's warning, that was nice. It was something I didn't think of, but, like Glork, it made me think that he is pro-town.

1) Do you think Muffin is likely to be town? (assuming JDodge dead town quack)

Yes. My perception of muffin is not affected by mine of JD.

2) Who do you think is scummiest (henceforth Mr X)? (assume JDodge dead town quack)

Gorrad possibly, the lurkers, and Cream.

[Aegor]

The question therein is not one of that, but is lurking in this particular context scummy, and how so?

Your posts in this game have been quite rare before the last day or two, when people started calling you out for lurking. They have been rather brief, and in my opinion, basically unhelpful/unoriginal. In other words, you have contributed very little to game development and/or scumhunting. Some other players suffer from the same problem.

However, given that you had been more active in your other games, and given that you are EITHER a scum or a quack, I singled you out. Lurking is always bad to me, but day-lurking doesn't replace actual lurking. In other words, I still don't think you are contributing, just trying to appear involved. That is scummy. Again, given that you are already either a scum or a quack, I am leaning toward scum. And that is why I want to lynch you.


Did that answer your question? I believe it answered it, and also answered why I want to lynch you in particular.

[Aegor]

Correct.

I completely veto this plan. Not only does it show your self-importance (much like all your other plans), it opens the game up to manipulation by scum (which I believe you are).

I say that we just use player names on the front page or alphabetical lists, as people have already suggested. I don't want arranged pairings made by the players.

At this point, I think Muffin and puppy are town. I am undecided on Aegor (I remember him owning me in his first newbie game, so I know he is excellent at not looking scummy as scum), and Zu and Cream both look a bit scummy to me.

Haha. I loved that game. Anyway, now I'm apparently excellent at not looking town as town.

[Aegor]

RlYY!1!!1!!!

Also, Glork, although that's true, he hasn't made much effort at all.

[Aegor]

I'm fine with those.

[Aegor]

Me too.

[Aegor]

Now surly if he was quack he would have intrest in this game, thats what confuses me.

Not true, as I think SirT said. No correlation between role and interest, in my opinion.

This would be hilarious had it not been so shocking. Someone please tell me this is all a big joke. So, JD knew from D1 he was a quack, did he muffin?

LOL. I know, that argument makes absolutely no sense.

Yeah, let's not lynch people we think are scum. FOS: Sir Tornado

Uhm, there are many reasons to lynch someone. If a lot of information can be gained and the person has a decent chance of being scum, then a lynch is completely acceptable.

What the hell, is no one interested in catching real scum that no one noticed these two guys spitting in the face of town?

I agree. I still don't think that Gorrad is town. If you would like to shift the bandwagon all the way back to Gorrad, be my guest.

[Aegor]

Gorrad (3) JDodge, zu_Faul, muffinhead
Aegor (1) Gorrad
JDodge (4) Aegor, Glork, Pink Puppy, Cream147
(No vote) PyroDwarf

(Elmo)

, Sir Tornado
10 players. 6 votes to lynch.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It seems I mistakenly gave fourteen of the players the Serial Killer role.

Oh! That must have been the problem! Thanks mod, I hope that Gorrad is satisfied. His considerations couldn't be wrong, so there must have been a blatant mod error.

Some people need to post/vote. I think that we have narrowed down candidates to Gorrad, Aegor, and JD. Let's please actually discuss or lynch, instead of shifting around votes mindlessly.

[Aegor]

If I were opportunistic, I'd hop on the wagon without reasoning.

Not true at all. Opportunistic simply means that you are taking advantage of the situation. You can be subtle, i.e. provide an explanation, and still be opportunistic.

[Aegor]

On a more serious note, Aegor, what do you think about Glork?

I don't know. On a purely instinctual level, I am not completely comfortable with the notion that he is town. What happens tonight might prompt me to think about him more.

[Aegor]

JDodge, throughout the entire game, there was absolutely no interaction between Aegor and Glork unless forced by Glork. That is a scum tell. IIRC, Aegor did something similar with Xyzzy in his newbie as scum. (I will have to check it though)

Add to that a moderate amount of distancing Glork did with Aegor today and I am leaning towards Aegor/Glork scum group.

Like Glork, I think this is quite an interesting theory. You are correct, xyzzy and I did successfully do something similar in Newbie 445, my first game. However, that was a game with seven players. This is one that started with five more. I haven't really mentioned everyone anyway, such as PD except to implicitly refer to him as lurker. There hasn't been much to say about Glork at this point, in my opinion. As I said, I am quite uncomfortable with him for some reason. However, I can't really prematurely make judgments about his plans/reasons at this point. The outcomes and direction of the game will tell me whether he's benevolent or has simply been screwing up the town.

[Aegor]

Why does the number of players affect your strategy so much when you consider that the scum:town ratios are rather close to each other and both have 2-person scumgroups?

It's not about strategy. It's about the fact that there were 11 players who were not me. I haven't posted about several of them. With seven players, it's much easier to post about all of them.

Hasn't Glork been contributing probably more than most everyone in this game? How can you say there's nothing to say about him?

But for me, his posts aren't intrinsically scummy. He mainly posts about plans, about theories, etc. Claiming that they are scummy now is not justified. If they turn out badly and I have the feeling that he is malevolently leading town, I will probably post about him.

If you absolutely, positively had to assign a reason to this, what would it be?

I worry that he is setting up the town to be in a bad position.

So let me get this straight - you are going to avoid taking a stance on Glork until late-game?

That's not what I said. When you ask your question based on what is in my post exactly, then I'll answer.

[Aegor]

I'm still here.

[Aegor]

bump

[Aegor]

Agreed. We just need to lynch someone at this point.

[Aegor]

I still wonder why do you of all people are upset over not posting content in this game. You could do something against it, but you just blame everyone else.

I think that this may have been true before, but right now it's more than just not posting. It's the fact that the day has literally been pushed far beyond its usefulness, and people realize (and don't post) that fact yet don't end it.

[Aegor]

Yes, we're waiting for Elmo.

[Aegor]

Wait, what is going on? lol, that was a quick day. I'm not sure how much I can glean from JD's lynch, partly because he was kind of lurking (which means that some town people could have reasonably been unwilling to lynch him).

However, I don't understand why Elmo is scum. Couldn't he have targeted scum the first night and town the second (as quack)? I really feel like I don't understand the mechanics of this game very well.

[Aegor]

Uh...PP, you are on crack. After muffin died, I protected Glork.

[Aegor]

Vote: Cream

[Aegor]

By the way, as long as town finds a way to guarantee a win, lynch me whenever you want. Lynch me whenever you want. In fact, when I turn up pro-town, it might help you to know that I actually am not lying about protecting Glork. Which is probably why he didn't die last night.

Does this mean that I should think that zu is mafia?

[Aegor]

By the way, I completely fail at the implications of the mechanics of the game.

Assume that cream is mafia, and you lynch him, and then lynch me tomorrow. Is there a way to guarantee a town win? If there is, I don't really care if I get lynched or not.

[Aegor]

Wait, yes, one of us is the quack:


Aegor N1: Protected PP (didn't die)
Aegor N2: Protected PP (didn't die)
Aegor N3: Protected Glork (didn't die)

If PP is scum, that would explain why he didn't die nights 1 and 2 (which would make me a quack). I protected Glork N3, which means that someone (zu) must have saved him. Which would mean that PP is scum.

Alternatively, we are both docs (?) and zu is scum. Is this possible?

[Aegor]

I say this in all honesty: I didn't know there was a plan. And I'm completely willing to be lynched based on whatever reasons people can find or invent. I'm not even going to try to defend myself.

But, on the other hand, I would at least like to know how town will win the game when I turn up as a doc/quack. If it is impossible to guarantee a victory, then I will get lynched anyway; at least it will give you some information.

[Aegor]

Does anything else in particular need to be discussed before the day is over?

[Aegor]

Yes, in a way. But the fact that PP suggested a plan that would be a guaranteed win for town (assuming I followed the assigned plan, of course) that included his lynch leads me to believe that he's not mafia.

I'm putting my money on zu being scum.

[Aegor]

P.S.: I'm sorry for not following the plan.

[Aegor]

Fine. Lynch me. As I said, I don't care. It's really not important to me that I survive as long as all scum die. But I would love to think that people have a plan when I turn up town, so we can go from there. That's all I'm asking. We lynch cream today, and lynch me tomorrow. But what happens next? I'm not trying to weasel myself out of a lynch, because it won't work, first of all, and getting lynched would probably benefit town anyway. But I think we should have at least the outlines of a plan to determine what happens after I die.

[Aegor]

I thought he was the most pro-town, and worth protecting. I also had no idea what the plan was. I just skimmed over the last day, and all I could find was zu and Glork were sort of protecting each other. Someone also said that we were protecting the same people as the previous night if we wanted. I assumed that the pairings were off, so I targeted Glork.

Given this, I now know that zu is scum:

Aegor-Doc
Pink-Doc
Glork-Quack
Zu-Scum

The only problem is that we don't get a chance to lynch twice, do we? Actually, we might.

I will protect Pink tonight.

Tomorrow, lynch me.

The next night, Glork/PP target each other because zu is definitely scum.

Glork/PP lynch zu.

Does this work for everyone?

[Aegor]

Gah!!!!! Alts!!!!

Your plan has a major flaw. Glork is a quack, and would kill Pink Puppy, causing zu to win. It's simple, you lynch right tomorrow, or you lose.

I knew there was a problem in there somewhere, otherwise it would be too easy. =/ Well, given that I'm either scum or a doctor (right?), that makes it easy.

As far as I can see, we have one scum out of zu/Aegor. I'll probably end up being lynched, but at least I can have the satisfaction of knowing who the mafia is (given that it's definitely not Glork/PP, I think).

[Aegor]

Hmm...Glork could be the scum, I suppose. But I think that zu is much more likely to be the remaining wolf.

Let me just say, I am sorry for botching this game completely. My play has been absolutely terrible for this entire game, from the plan I suggested to my reaction to players like Near. I'll try to defend against the accusations that will surely be brought against me, but to be honest, I probably deserve to be lynched anyway. I truly say this in all sincerity - this is probably the worst game that I've played, and probably will be for a very long time. My excuse was the only possible one scum could make, which is why it isn't believable at all. All I can say is that it's the truth.

[Aegor]

That said, I don't believe a word of what Aegor says.

Well, you should, considering the fact that you know I'm town. But the other players don't know that. So you're right, the actual pro-town players probably shouldn't believe what I'm saying, because that would mean that I screwed up the game, which I did.

Seriously, like I said yesterday, our plan was completely build on the fact that everyone follows it. It all falls down if anyone strays from it. Gorrad and I reaffirmed that plan (same targets as every night) during the first posts of Day 3 and no one objected, I can't see how you missed that.

Well, I did. There's no defense I can give, because what I did was dumb. But I can't do anything about it now.

If you are town, you seriously screwed us (in case I am Quack and Glork is scum). But I don't think you are.

Yeah, I really did. And I'm sorry. I'm not even asking you to believe me at this point. I just want to let everyone know what actually happened, so that the endgame is not so confusing.

BTW, who could hypothetically be scum at this point? Assume I protected Glork for the moment. Could he still be scum?

[Aegor]

That sucks.

[Aegor]

I mean, you're right. He could be lying. But I find it much more likely that he would want to get revenge on the other scum team.

I agree. Why would scum want the OTHER scum team to win? I believe he's telling the truth, personally.

Also, does anyone else have trouble believing Aegor is so lost in the game mechanics?

I am not one who has a tight grasp on these things, yet I am ahead of him. I have a hard time believing Aegor is so fail at this game. (I mean that as a compliment to Aegor).

LOL. Yes, I am actually that fail, which is surprising because I'm definitely a math/science/logic person. This game has flown WAY above my head since its commencement, unfortunately. Of course, this is what I would say as scum, so take it with a grain of salt. However, if you honestly think I'm scum (unsurprising), allow myself to pat my back for putting up such a consistent image of ignorance about the mechanics and implications of this game for its entire duration.

[Aegor]

Oh, and don't take the kill attempt on you personally, I was trying to expose zu!

Which you did, if people believe me. So, here's how it works:

Tomorrow, we have two pairs:

Glork/Zu
Aegor/PP

Unless scum is retarded, we will all be alive tomorrow unless there is some intricate plot of which I am unaware.

One of the pairs contains two docs, the other contains a quack and scum. We just need to determine which

pair

is the one with the non-docs. Obviously, the top candidate for scum will lead the remaining players to selecting the pair that contains the scum and quack.

Now that everyone knows what's going on, I think the day can end. Unless cream or the other players really have something to say that is critical to right now, we can wait until tomorrow to build cases. As far as I can see with my decidedly feeble grasp of this game's mechanics, switching up the pairs is a recipe for disaster. However, before we lynch cream, perhaps he has something useful to say or ending comments before he dies and the wolves lose.

[Aegor]

1) Scum knows who quack is. They know that if the quack is lynched, they lose. Watch out for people reluctant to vote for their protecting partner. Self-voting is a very viable option if you think your partner is scum as it's just as good as voting your partner.

I know what you mean, but I don't see how it makes sense in this case. No one knows who anyone is. I am reluctant to vote for PP and for myself equally because I know that we are both docs.

[Aegor]

I know what you mean now. I just wasn't sure whether you meant that if we were reluctant to vote for ourselves even though we thought our partner was scum, or just in general.

[Aegor]

Hello?

[Aegor]

Where is everyone?

[Aegor]

Ooooh.... Did not see that.

[Aegor]

I would like to hear their opinions as well.

[Aegor]

I will look back on zu, whom I find more scummy than Glork by leaps and bounds.

[Aegor]

No, no. You are mistaken. I find you scummy. Now I'm finding things to convince others to believe the same.

[Aegor]

That's what I'm doing. I'm going to bring up the instances in the last 20 pages that contributed to my thinking he is scum.

[Aegor]

Wow, I forgot about this game. I'll follow up on my promise and at least attempt to post something tonight.

[Aegor]

Okay, I got a few pages into the game and then decided not to read all 39 pages. However, a few things I noticed about zu were what PP pointed out (I think I get it: If zu thought that cream was mafia, then he would target whomever cream was supposed to in order to expose cream, correct?), that he constructed bogus cases involving ultra-fake Freudian slips (namely on Gorrad and PP), and also seemed very convinced in his beliefs when it was convenient/beneficial (Gorrad comes to mind).


Now, that paragraph is pathetically insignificant given that we have had 39 pages of the game (then again, zu hasn't posted prolifically either). It also does not make zu more scummy than I, for reasons already mentioned and discussed.

However, it is between zu and myself. I mean, PP theoretically could be scum, but I honestly don't think that's the case. However, I am still considering the possibility and thus am not opposed to my own lynch. Let me think about that unless people want to lynch now in which case I really can't do anything anyway.

I'm still not sure if Glork can be scum. If he is, then zu=quack, and cream targeted Glork.

Mod: Do quacks protect scum or just act neutral toward them?

I would be a doc, and saved Glork (in which case it doesn't really matter whether zu actually protects him, I think). Anyway, this situation would work, right?

However, I find zu much more suspicious.

[Aegor]

It's not like he could fake a question like this to pretend he doesn't understand it [/irony]

I know, really. It's probably not a good idea to try to examine my posts now to see if they keep up certain trends, given that I'm aware of everything. I could easily be keeping up the act, so the question is whether the "act" was an act (and this would be determined by behavior throughout the game, not right now).

[Aegor]

I'm sorry to put pressure on people, but unfortunately, I am leaving for three weeks on Thursday. I will be in the wilderness of New Mexico and will have zero communication. If possible, could we end the game before then because I don't see a replacement as a very good option. Of course, if that is the only option, then I can't really do anything about it.

[Aegor]

Post 789 is the closest he got to making an actual stand regarding Aegor, but given the lack of vote, I see it as mere distancing.

I just read that post, and, from my entirely biased perspective, it did not read as distancing at all. It was genuine, IMO. Obviously, my viewpoint will be proven correct upon my death, if that ever comes.



Zu: LOL, nice. Of course, when I die and you are scum, I get to laugh at the people who voted for me.

Vote: zu

There is tons of evidence against me, and I have always been open with acknowledging that. However, some of you have played before with me (coughcoughGlorkinMartyrcoughcough), and I would hope that you would see that this is definitely NOT Aegor scum. Not that it couldn't be.

PP, don't vote me. If you do, then I know you're not scum. But then I'm dead, and the game is over.

[Aegor]

[quote="zu]It is rather more of a point against Aegor. He never even considered voting you. [/quote]

I know I'm not scum. So I consider the possibility of others being scum. You are much more likely than PP to be scum. This situation is still one where you vote for whomever you find scummiest. I find it much more likely that one of you/Glork is scum than PP. And BTW, I definitely have mentioned the possibility of PP being scum.

[Aegor]

By the way, I suggest that zu unvote, and then PP votes, and then zu hammers. That is, as soon as PP votes, zu hammers. I don't know if this really has any impact, but it may (just may) shed light on PP's intentions.

[Aegor]

Aegor... on a meta level... we had major cat fights in our recent newbie game where we were both town. This game, you don't seem to hate me. Are you buddying up to me, or have I just been less bitchy in provoking you?

LOL, true true. Circumstance is everything. I have not buddied up to anyone this game, I have just been better about not pissing people off. You have done the same, I imagine. There is always something specific, I don't just fly off the handle without reason.

The problem with my answers is that I can easily skew them if I'm scum, so please take that into account. Because I'm obviously on the hot-seat, my answers will be difficult to take as true because of the uncertainty of my alignment.

[Aegor]

Yeah...Sorry again. At least people suspected zu...