Mini 579 - The Plagues of Egypt Mafia - Over

[lord_hur]

Since i believe in revenge

vote Lord_hur,

2 votes is nothing with this many people.

Haha I can't blame you, but let me return the favor

Vote: Musher333

[lord_hur]

I hate no-reveal games

Well, I have the feeling, because of this rule and this food system, which implies that there are several types, that this will be a very complicated game

No pity for us newbies

[lord_hur]

Also, with 10 plagues (so I assume, 10 nights) and 12 players, the probability of at least one resurrect role is pretty strong.

[lord_hur]

I wonder how our lunch will come into play? Maybe "XXX is dead and there are pancakes everywhere!" I just picked pancakes at random, it isn't mine, who has pancakes for lunch, anyways?

I was thinking about a poisoner role, who can poison one type of food, maybe with a delay on the death.

[lord_hur]

vote: hackerhuck

because I don't want to get hacked

Your scum-hunting technique is impressive.

[lord_hur]

HoS:lord_hur

would be a vote but I believe you are on 3 so far.
What is speculation on roles at this time going to do to help town?
Also

Fos:PyroDwarf

for more speculation.

Hmm sorry, I've not played with hidden roles before. So you're saying town doesn't want roles to be known, while scum on the contrary want them revealed?

I have trouble with the idea. I've always been said on the contrary that town does want to get more info, while scum's power lies in secrecy.

Could you please elaborate ?

[lord_hur]

And @lord_hur who was it you wanted to be in a game with? As that is what you said in the queue thread, im nosey deal with it.:d

That would be Mr Stoofer. I put him with the "very good and experienced players I could learn a lot from"

[lord_hur]

HoS:lord_hur

would be a vote but I believe you are on 3 so far.
What is speculation on roles at this time going to do to help town?
Also

Fos:PyroDwarf

for more speculation.

At any rate, and if what you said is true, I've not made much damage, as my speculation over a poisoner role is really far-fetched (and a scum role), and about the resurrect thing... well I'd have an argument to defend myself but it would give more info, and apparently this is bad

[lord_hur]

If we discuss the setup, it will give the scum more information than we want them to have. It's best to keep them guessing about these things as much as we can.

I was thinking it would help town, so the lynch is not a shot in the dark... Maybe not though

[lord_hur]

Not that it does much damage either way but at this stage of the game it has no use. I have my own private thoughts about these things especialy the food but it is of no benifit to speculate on these things yet.

Then if it is neutral to town, why would you FoS me (vote me even, if I wasn't at L-3 already) over it ?

Well anyway, unless someone objects to thevampireofdusseldorf's statements, I will shut up about this whole roles thing.

[lord_hur]

The following quotes make me think that lord_hur knows more about this setup than the rest of us (or at least: more than me).

I think I know what you're refering to and there's a good explanation, but I guess I can't give it without getting more FoS... this IS public info though.

[lord_hur]

Please answer my question.

What did you think, he ignored mine too...

[lord_hur]

Oh also, could anyone tell me what's the difference between HoS and FoS ? The wiki says they're the same thing...

[lord_hur]

@lord_hur
Speculating on roles even if there is no obvious disadvantage to town or obvious advantage to scum I have to see as slightly scummy.

I think I know what you're refering to and there's a good explanation, but I guess I can't give it without getting more FoS... this IS public info though.

If you are town and have an explanation that wont hurt town or help scum then perhaps you should explain. If not your explanation for not explaining is unsatisfactory.

@Mr Stoofer
I deemed the suspicion that was already on lord_hur to be sufficent for his action
I also viewed your overburdening of him with more suspicion suspicious

Okay, I think the reason Mr Stoofer thinks I know more than him about the setup if that there is extra info in undo's introductory post in the queue thread, including the reference to 10 plagues. So I was thinking maybe he didn't read it.

I don't think pointing to this info can hurt town, but since I've been pretty harshly voted for giving info already...

Thinking back about it though, I still think that info helps both town and scum (for now, I will blame this on my newbness tough, maybe I'll understand later).


About what you said to Mr Stoofer though... Please tell me what gives you the *exclusive* right to questioning people ?

Questioning people for good reasons is an eminently pro-town attitude and should not be denied to anyone.

On the other hand, if you think someone's accusation is undue, it is perfectly fair game to question it. But it is not what you said.

[lord_hur]

Please tell me what gives you the *exclusive* right to questioning people ?

Nothing at all. Anyone can question anyone, as far as I am concerned. I'll answer any questions you have.

I don't understand where you got the idea that I claimed the *exclusive* right to question people.

Err, I was reacting to thevampireofdusseldorf's post, not yours, as indicates :

- the fact that I quoted his post and not yours ;
- and the "About what you said to Mr Stoofer, though" part, which was right before your quote of my post.

Okay, I think the reason Mr Stoofer thinks I know more than him about the setup if that there is extra info in undo's introductory post in the queue thread, including the reference to 10 plagues. So I was thinking maybe he didn't read it.

I read the opening post. But I saw no warrant for a resurrection role, or a poisoner. Nor for your assumption that we are going to have a different plague every night.

Both roles were basically far-fetched guesses on assumptions I explained when I posted them ; but to clarify even more :

- poisoner : only because that there are food types ; does it get any more far-fetched ?
- resurrector : because there are 10 plagues, and as there was one plague night 0, so I thought maybe 1 plague each night, which means 10 nights planned (which IS stupid, I agree with Musher333). To last 10 nights with 12 players, you'd need a resurrector. But again, 10 nights is stupid, so this entire deduction crumbles.

So both guesses were complete shots in the dark, and most probably wrong.

Wew. I hope I've been clear enough there.

[lord_hur]

Wow this game moves quite fastly doesnt it? And @Lord_hur about wanting to be with stoofer its a good point, better people help make you better. (supposedly)

Yes, I learned a lot by playing with cicero (and, to a lesser extent, Adel, but that was my fault ), more than the other newbie games combined (though Adele was great too)

[lord_hur]

About what you said to Mr Stoofer though... Please tell me what gives you the *exclusive* right to questioning people ?

Questioning people for good reasons is an eminently pro-town attitude and should not be denied to anyone.

On the other hand, if you think someone's accusation is undue, it is perfectly fair game to question it. But it is not what you said.

If you look at the third quote I didn't really see it as a question, more 3 quotes of yours (a large body of evidence) and an accusation. To me it was trying to push something a bit far.

He was basically asking where I got the informations, because explaining it was the only way I could defend myself. I see what you're trying to say though. But because *you* analyzed something doesn't mean one can't analyze the same thing, especially if the person brings up new points, which Mr Stoofer did (the fact that I might know more than him).

I think most were happy to leave this speculating business alone

I agree that this whole thing went out of proportion, but I had to defend myself.

[lord_hur]

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned me or SlySly, and also that SlySly hasn't posted at all in the game.

mod:

prod?

Lots of talk, but only one day and 10 hours.

[lord_hur]

He was basically asking where I got the informations, because explaining it was the only way I could defend myself. I see what you're trying to say though. But because *you* analyzed something doesn't mean one can't analyze the same thing, especially if the person brings up new points, which Mr Stoofer did (the fact that I might know more than him).

I dont really see that as bringing up a new point (not points) that you might know more than him, as he explains below that he had read the applicable meterial, so thus "you might know more than me" is throwing suspicion on you as being scum.
I also don't understand your conclusion of how he was asking you where you got your information from.

I'm tired. But okay, one last round on this :

The following quotes make me think that lord_hur knows more about this setup than the rest of us (or at least: more than me).

Mr Stoofer implies here that I got information from means not available to everyone, i.e. that I leaked info from my role pm from undo. To refute it, It was necessary for me to prove him that all the info I used was public.
So the underlying question was : Where did you get the info ?

If it is given as MR Stoofer has said he read the information then the "at least: more than me" part is I imagine to be taken as "I dont know things I am unimformed majority aka town"

Hmm I didn't understand it this way. It's best he comments on this himself.

[lord_hur]

I'm not sure I like how quickly Lord_Hur backtracked on his initial statements.

And I'm not sure I like how you call "statements" what was obviously wild guesses, especially after I took all that time to clarify it.

[lord_hur]

I'm not sure I like how quickly Lord_Hur backtracked on his initial statements.

And I'm not sure I like how you call "statements" what was obviously wild guesses, especially after I took all that time to clarify it.

Sorry about this, I was unnecessarily aggressive This whole discussion is slowly getting on my nerves...

[lord_hur]

We're out of the random voting stage now.

True.

Unvote.

[lord_hur]

I agree, the guy sure is trigger-happy.

Vote : thevampireofdusseldorf

so he calms down a notch (L-3, if i'm not mistaken).

Better reasons and less voting/FoSing please.

[lord_hur]

That discussion seems to be winding down with the agreement that we need more info first.

We need more info ? On what then, if we must keep roles secret ?

[lord_hur]

That discussion seems to be winding down with the agreement that we need more info first.

We need more info ? On what then, if we must keep roles secret ?

If I'm reading it right (and this is my position by the way) he is saying that we shouldn't bother speculating on tidbits in the opening posts until we actually have some information about those tidbits.

I really don't like this post. When I read it, it made PyroDwarf look really scummy, but when I looked at his actual post I got absolutely no scum-vibes.

Look really scummy ? What the hell makes you say that ? I was just saying I don't understand what he means... Where did you see even one hint of accusation or allusion to scummyness?

[lord_hur]

He isn't accusing you he is accusing PyroDwarf so i would be careful, your remark could be counted as scummish.

No, re-read it. He's accusing me of making PyroDwarf look scummy, but that PyroDwarf's actual post wasn't scummy.

I know it's not logical, but that's what he said.

[lord_hur]

Mod, could you also consider prodding Shin Hatsubai ?

Only 1 post, 3 days ago.

[lord_hur]

Sorry folks, I had to go out of town unexpectedly. I have caught up on the thread and everything. I also feel that random voting has ended, and my vote on lord_hur should have been removed long ago

unvote lord_hur

Any comments on what happened since you last posted ?

[lord_hur]

Ok I am happy with a vote on now

Vote:lord_hur

After watching his reactions to things I am happy to do this, asking for Prods and others thoughts seems to me like wanting to get out of the spotlight.

The problem with your reasoning is, if it were true no one would ever be able to get out of a defensive position, as the mere fact of doing anything else looks scummy according to you. Do you think I should just keep defending myself till someone lynches me for no pro-town activity ? No thanks.

[lord_hur]

hasdgfas is scum. At the bottom of the thread, where it says 'display posts by previous', click hasdgfas, and view his posts in isolation:

Post 0 -- he random votes for HH because he doesn't want to get hacked. He is showing care for his own well being, even in his joke.

Post 1 -- he addresses a question posed to someone else (tvod, conveniently), and talks about how "we" shouldn't do "x" because that would help "them" -- the scum. This post is trying to be helpful but isn't, and interjects so tvod can't answer the question untainted.

Post 2 -- Similarly appears to be helpful but isn't really. 'Why not play mafia?'. ...

Post 3 -- hasdgfas is definitely directing tvod here; my most probable read is scum directing scum (partner, why do you act suspiciously? act better!) but I think that scum directing new town to look nice a pro-town is an almost as probable scenario.

Post 4 -- Casts minor suspicion and comments on how 'he doesn't like' something.

Cliff Notes

hasdgfas has posted a few times but hasn't really been helpful, though he has appeared to be so while talking about theory. imo scum love to do this. He is guilty of directing tvod and protecting him from a question, a connection a townie would not want to make. Lastly, his diction leads me to believe that he is scum; instances such as the 'I don't want to get hacked' and careful use of we to refer to town and they to refer to scum make me believe this.

SlySly is also probably scum.

tvod may or may not be scum; there is evidence of a hasdgfas connection, for sure. I am unsure how much faith I have in the direct case on tvod.

unvote: slysly ; vote: hasdgfas

fos: slysly, mfos: tvod

My own opinion on this :

0. Very far-fetched.

1. I don't like the use of we and them too, I must admit. But it is not a good scumtell in my books.

2. Well it wasn't the most useful thing to say, but it was on point regarding what VOD said. No scumtell.

3. He was trying to make VOD talk, not directing him. And I would have been interested in VOD's answer too. Pro-town to me.

4. Same, he's just provoking a reaction. Slightly pro-town.

On the other hand, I do agree with you on the fact hasdgfas has only said pretty obvious things, that others would surely have asked if he wasn't there (on 4 I actually said the same thing right before he did, probably Sarnath'ed him though).

I don't think it should get him a vote for now though. But if he still hasn't contributed much in a week or so... (<- this is a subtle hint directed to hasdgfas).

[lord_hur]

This post seems to me to be a lot of theory and speculation. I don't see anything here that actually moves the game forward.

Shin, a couple questions for you:
1) Why do you think we need another night to get a better feel for this game? Don't you think we can use 1 day to find scum? It seems to me like what's more important to you at this point is understanding the game as opposed to finding scum.
2) You don't need to make a "snap decision" as to who is scum. In fact, that's one of the worst things you could possibly do. It should be a more well thought-out decision as opposed to just deciding hastily.

Sarnath'ed.

[lord_hur]

While I don't like VOD's playstyle as well, let's not lynch him (or anyone else for that matter) too soon : he's already at L-2.

The day is very young, and I'm sure there are many interesting things we could learn.

For example, I'd like a few precisions :

@Guardian : your only contribution so far has been your stating that qasdgfas is scum. In the light on the posts that followed this stating, do you maintain it ?

@HackerHuck, whose only 2 meaningful posts before his attack on Guardian had been attacks on me for reasons I qualified as quite defective. You just wrote off your first attack, but do you still think the second was justified ?

@Mr Stoofer : do you still think I know more than you ? Also, you said something that leads me to think you know more about the setup than me : you only said that scum would know more than the others, but why do you seem to be thinking that eventual town special roles do not know more than vanillas ? Why did you only associate my alleged superior knowledge with scum ?

@Musher333 : hmm hard one, didn't notice anything that wasn't on point. I'd just like more analyzing and accusations, if possible (if just so I get things to ask hehe).

@PyroDwarf : about your taking my speculation as just that, for now : what conclusion will you draw if one or more things I speculated over (a resurrector role, a poisoner role, 1 plague each night) is/are confirmed ?

@Shin Hatsubai : Why do you think it would be bad for town to let the day drag on too much ? What could be the damage, if everyone stays active and provides accusations and answers (in which you are arguably behind everyone else) ?

@Singing Librarian : more activity please (only 4 posts, and your only attack had been following someone else). Also, you qualified Guardian's attack as interesting, could you tell me in which way ?

@thevampireofdusseldorf : it seems your "unconventional playstyle" as you qualify it has so far gotten you 4 votes. Do you have an idea on precisely what caused us to vote for you ? Will you consider modifying your playstyle ?

[lord_hur]

Bleh, for some reason I skipped hasdgfas :

@hasdgfas : What do you think of Guardian's accusation ? Also, as everyone said, more analyzing would be appreciated.

[lord_hur]

Oh, also :

@all experienced players : does the fact that kabenon007 died first night give us any hint on his scummyness? (never faced night 0's myself)

[lord_hur]

I am just hard to understand?

Hell YES. Be more concise and to the point please. Think about every sentence, and don't be afraid to re-read and suppress and unnecessary word.

[lord_hur]

I am not sure that I understand your second/third questions. Generally, giving away extra information is a Scum tell, rather than a Power-Role tell (did you look at the wiki link?). That's because Scum are super keen to appear helpful, while Power-Roles tend to want to stay hidden. That is why I normally ascribe extra knowledge of the setup to scum, when it comes out day 1. But you make a fair point -- pro-Town Power-Roles may also be able to work out the setup more easily.

Yes, this is what I meant. Thank you.

I agree with the general idea, but I just want to add that although it's true that SOME scum will naturally try to appear useful, it sure is not always the case. Take Quitex in that last game for example : he was spouting mainly gibberish and voted way too fast, and was not appearing *very* useful to town by any standard. I have other examples in mind, but can't use them as the games are not finished.

Also, some players naturally try to be active and helpful in all their games, regardless of their alignment or power-role, just because that's how a good vanilla would appear.

So I think what you say is very interesting, it is *far* from being an absolute truth.

[lord_hur]

lord hur, cow has posted once since I made my case, so no my stance hasn't significantly changed.

I wasn't talking about his post only, but others' comments too. I'm thinking "no" will be your answer anyway though.

[lord_hur]

Someone's hunch is without merit. Pretty much been on unexpected V\LA, will contribute more soon after a read through.

After all this time, I for one expect a nice big meaty post...

Also, your question :

@SlySly : In your opinion, should lurkers (in general) be considered as scummy, playing anti-town, both depending on on the circumstances ? Why?

[lord_hur]

Of course, phrases such as "tvod turns up as scum" kinda assumes we will find out his alignment if/when we lynch him

We didn't get the info for kabenon007, there's no reason to think we'll get it for the next one.

This is evil.

[lord_hur]

Lurking is sometimes not lurking. This is very much the case for a player who has never posted in the game. You have absolutely no way of knowing if that player is lurking or just not around to contribute therefore is a null tell. I would find a player that popped in every now and then just to throw down a quick vote or FoS then fall back into lurk mode much more suspicious than I would a player that has never posted.

This is a good thing I asked your opinion *in general* because otherwise I would be stuck with this type of reply. I wanted to ask you a question like the others, but the only noticeable thing about you is that you were away (which I personally believe is the truth). So I asked this.

I think your attack on Mr Stoofer is very interesting, as no one explored this lead before. However, your linking of Mr Stoofer and Guardian is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. and looks like confirmation bias (you found scummy - to you - behavior regarding Mr Stoofer and Guardian, so you looked for a link, and as this is the main one...).

Overall, good post.

[lord_hur]

@HackerHuck, whose only 2 meaningful posts before his attack on Guardian had been attacks on me for reasons I qualified as quite defective. You just wrote off your first attack, but do you still think the second was justified ?

Do I really come off that mean?

I didn't really think I was attacking you the second time, so I'm not sure what to say. When I read your quote of PyroDwarf, it made him sound scummy. Rereading your post I'm not feeling it as much as I did the first time, but that doesn't discount my initial impression. I think you're overreacting to a rather minor point I made.

"I really don't like this post" IS an attack. I accept your answer though, as I have myself done the same thing before (as town).

[lord_hur]

I have already explained that Mr Stoofers comment re lord_hur was not adding anything new to the discussion and my interpretation (aided by Mr Stoofer) shows this was a mere "I think you are scum and I am town".

You are wrong. Everyone, including SlySly who is currently attacking Mr Stoofer, thinks that he actually added to the discussion (but not necessarily in a town way, according to SlySly).

If somebody adds to a bandwagon in a way you find suspicious is it then reasonable to find them suspicious also?

This is why I FoSed Mr Stoofer.

I guess my explanation for the comment "if it is merited" I have not explained too well. So I will try to give it plainly.

If you are town and add to a bandwagon then you obviously believe your suspicion is merited because you do not know if that person is scum or town.
If you are scum then you have to add suspicion when it

seems

merited.

The difference is not enough to be used as an argument (in my opinion).

So from what I have gathered Mr Stoofer added a rather pointless comment to the anti lord_hur movement and then was overly interested in if his suspicions seemed merited in my eyes.

Hmm, SlySly raised this point too; I'd like to see Mr Stoofer's answer about it.

Now I dont hold what I think to be evidence enough to say Mr Stoofer is scum but I am suspicious of him and if he is scum I see a link between him and Singing Librarian.

A link with Singing Librarian ? What link ?


Overall, it's better on the clarity, but not perfect. Look at SlySly's arguments agianst Mr Stoofer for example. Quick. To the point. Efficient (just judging the form, not the content).

[lord_hur]

Of course, phrases such as "tvod turns up as scum" kinda assumes we will find out his alignment if/when we lynch him

We didn't get the info for kabenon007, there's no reason to think we'll get it for the next one.

This is evil.

Well, it seems the mod has decided to show us that he will give more info about the dead in the future. Look at post 0 now.

[lord_hur]

So from what I have gathered Mr Stoofer added a rather pointless comment to the anti lord_hur movement and then was overly interested in if his suspicions seemed merited in my eyes.

Hmm, SlySly raised this point too; I'd like to see Mr Stoofer's answer about it.

My point about lord_hur was not pointless.

It was a point that nobody else had mentioned before

. That is why tvod's FOS of me was so stupid. I agree that merely repeating points someone else has made is sometimes a scum tell, but my point was

brand new

. That is why I got so annoyed with tvod.

Ah damn, it's my fault, I wanted to quote only the second part of VOD's post, about you being "overly interested...", which wasn't unlike SlySly's accusation of being overly defensive in that same post 32.

The first part of the post is completely wrong in my opinion (and I've always said so).

Well, it seems the mod has decided to show us that he will give more info about the dead in the future. Look at post 0 now.

I've looked and I didn't see what you are referring to...

The three "???" after kabenon007 in the dead section have always been there ?

[lord_hur]

@everyone else- are you not starting to think that VoD just doesnt want to answer for some reason we so far dont know of?

I don't think VOD is trying to fool us. I think he's serious with every of his non-answers.

[lord_hur]

Stoofer, I don't insist.

unvote; vote: Mr Stoofer

He's talking about this. It is obvious to me that you two know something the others (or me at least) don't know, and are debating whether you should reveal it or not.

It seems it is not something about your alignments, since Guardian voted for Mr Stoofer. I also feel it is not something of great importance, as Mr Stoofer talks quite openly about it.

[lord_hur]

I've just done a read through on everyone and one thing leaped out at me that I hadn't spotted before, namely the fact that hasdgfas is posting regularly elsewhere on the site but hasn't posted here for 3 days. In my book that is more than enough to warrant

unvote; vote:hasdgfas

.

I still think thevampireofdussledorf has to die, though (if he is not scum he doesn't deserve to live).

Yes, I could understand it if no one was talking (in another game, I am basically engaged in a near-monologue so I stopped giving input), but the activity has been great so far in here.

[lord_hur]

The why not a vote?

Bacause he's not stupid, and one vote is enough to get him to react. I'll add mine later if needed.

[lord_hur]

The why not a vote?

Bacause he's not stupid

Thanks, I think

Any reason to give for your lurking ?

[lord_hur]

Well, I just wanted to make sure you knew, and that you weren't voting for me under a misapprehension. (Although to be honest I'd rather you weren't voting for me at all.)

@SlySly: you have understood my post about tvod correctly. But it is not anti-Town to want to kill a player who is hurting the town regardless of their alignment. Click here for a thread where lots of people express the view that killing players who are hurting the Town is a good idea regardless of their alignment. See posts 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 15, 20, 21 -- all of which agree with me that sometime you have to have a lynch of the player that is not helping the Town. See especially 20 and 21, made by me before I got my role PM in this game.

I completely agree with this. Players behaving anti-town, even if they are not scum, are greatly hurting town, as they reduce the amount of information available and/or reduce town's reasoning ability (lurkers, one-line post specialists, confusing people, etc).

For example, in another game, lylo situation : 2 out of 5 people are ghosts, only posting a couple lines a week to answer the prods. What do you think town chances are in this situation ? Nearly zero.

[lord_hur]

But it is not anti-Town to want to kill a player who is hurting the town regardless of their alignment.

I don't care who agrees with you, this is scum logic. Though mislynches happen, I would prefer to never lynch a townie, regardless of their play style.

Of course. Lynching anti-town should *only* take place when town has no real lead on who scum might be. I actually wrote this in my last post, but erased it right before posting, as it sounded so obvious.

Beside, tVoD is not hurting the town in any way that I can see.

While I agre with the reasoning, I don't think VOD should die because of it. I think it should only be used in serious cases, and he is just not one of them.

[lord_hur]

lord_hur why are you supporting Mr Stoofer?
If he wishes to just lynch someone for being anti town without actually hunting for scum then that is plain ole scummy behaviour to me.

Re-read post 200 :

- in part 2, I say I agree with his reasoning, NOT his conclusions (not now, not later, unless you go lurking for a long time or your posts' quality decrease in a substancial way).

- in part 1, I say this should only be used as a last resort. If Mr Stoofer tried to use it right now to get you lynched, I'd be on his back like a rabid dog. At the moment though, he's not trying to actively influence people, he is just answering questions.

[lord_hur]

My stance on Mr Stoofer is he seems to be the most likely scum. Those supporting his arguments or his position I will find slightly scummy.
lord_hurs post is a bit wierd in that he says I support his theory but not his application. This is a strange way of defending someone. Also it gives lord_hur an excuse not to be on the back of Mr Stoofer.
Post 203 has only made me more suspicious of lord_hurs behaviour towards Mr Stoofer.

1. Where the hell did you get that I'm trying to defend him in the first place ? (same question than Guardian I know, but you didn't answer him)

2. Mr Stoofer stated an existing theory that is clearly very debated. So there are tons of people agreeing or disagreeing with it. Why would you blame anyone for just stating their opinion ?

[lord_hur]

Hmm I don't know, personally I wouldn't be surprised to get prodded after 3 days. Just means that the mod is doing his job well.

[lord_hur]

I still don't understand why people want to kill TVOD, could someone summarize??

I voted VOD because I didn't like the way he thrwe FoS's around without any good reason, and maintained it later mainly because I have no real lead and VOD never was in danger of being lynched (or the hammering would have looked VERY scummy...).

Guess I should

Unvote

though.

Right now I have one eye on SlySly, because I don't like the way he appears to be focusing excusively on Mr Stoofer...

My other eye is on Guardian (and also on Mr Stoofer, who seems to be very focused on defending him), as I still find very strange the way he clearly stated that he was sure of hasdgas' scumminess, while later saying he's playing by sense of smell... Unless he has a very powerful nose, it just doesnt stick together.

[lord_hur]

O SNAP!

Oh yes, Guardian, could you develop this please ?

[lord_hur]

My nose is pretty sweet.

O SNAP!

Oh yes, Guardian, could you develop this please ?

OOOOOOO SNAAAAAAAAAAP!



?

lord-hur, what do you think of the expansion I did for you right there?

It is very interesting.

[lord_hur]

Also, he says that players with more info are likely to be scum, then goes on and says he has information that he will reveal if guardian insists???

Yes, this had me wondering too. But I didn't know back then if I should push the matter, because there is that consensus that more info is bad for town.

Strange playing on Mr Stoofer's part though.

[lord_hur]

Mr. Stoofer for one and you for two. Do you really think "Oh Snap!" was a contributing answer post in response to my question to you?

I think it was the most concise post I could have made to accurately express my reaction to your post, so yes.

This still isn't an answer. What made you surprised/shocked/angry/whatever ?

[lord_hur]

SlySly, I re-read your posts and didn't see a question to Mr Stoofer that he did not answer.

Maybe I missed it, but at any rate, can you please repeat it ?

[lord_hur]

Would he not know that Bugs Bunny existed where the rest of us didn't?

Question already asked by me, and answered in post 111, last part.

[lord_hur]

In your opinion, shouldn't Stoofer, knowing that I had just rejoined the game, have kindly either a) answered my newly formed question, or b) pointed out that he had already answered a differently formed question of similar content in 111?

Well, you sorta answered your own question. Mr Stoofer would have done that if he was playing "kindly". Judging by his play in this game, this is not the case.

Do you think he should be given a free pass for all of the other questions he has avoided answering, or do you think it is less scummy of him to just ignore everyone's questions?

No, and no. He actually answered a load of questions though (even if he did leave some out), so I don't personally take it as a strong scumtell.

To clarify my position, here's my stance about those questions :

Answers I'd like answered by Mr Stoofer : 275

Uninteresting/rethorical questions : 114, 279, 241

Questions that have been answered (in my eyes), and as such, I don't care about an answer to them : 153, 197, 232, 160

That leaves the matter of the presumed extra info Mr Stoofer has (110, 165, 172, 184). As I said earlier, I am unsure if I should press the subject, because more info can be bad for town, and anyway Mr Stoofer said he would talk about it only if Guardian told him to (which the latter did not).

[lord_hur]

Another lynch bait comment above

Could you develop this idea please ? That's the second time you say it. Do you think that he is playing badly, or something else ?

[lord_hur]

That must have taken a lot of hard work, SlySly, but is in fact a load of crap. First, I made clear that I couldn't/wouldn't answer questions from tvod because I was finding him incomprehensible. Taking the questions out of context as you have done is wrong. In context they formed part of incomprehensible drivel. Second, many of your questions were not questions at all but rhetorical flourishes (e.g. 241 and your own 160). The fact that you claim that I ignored these questions just shows what a scumbag you are. Thirdly, on the Guardian questions (e.g. 172, 184), I have made my position absolutely clear.

I am not the only one who thinks this:

Answers I'd like answered by Mr Stoofer : 275

Uninteresting/rethorical questions : 114, 279, 241

Questions that have been answered (in my eyes), and as such, I don't care about an answer to them : 153, 197, 232, 160

That leaves the matter of the presumed extra info Mr Stoofer has (110, 165, 172, 184). As I said earlier, I am unsure if I should press the subject, because more info can be bad for town, and anyway Mr Stoofer said he would talk about it only if Guardian told him to (which the latter did not).

I am sure you will agree that lord_hur has hardly been pro-Stoofer in this game, so I think it fair to let him be the judge of your list.

1. Mr Stoofer is trying to twist my words in this post : nowhere did I say or imply anything about SlySly's scumminess in this post, I was just answering his questions as well as I can. I personally think the fact that he thought Mr Stoofer was ignoring questions could just as well be explained by an honest mistake, or the fact that he requires more precise answers than I do.

2. I do NOT want to be the judge of anything, because I do NOT want anyone to hide behind what I say. This was my opinion, and nothing more.

[lord_hur]

...
.......
..............
Good lord. I am just speechless. IF you're town (and that's a HUGE if), do you realize how much you just hurt town ?

But anyway, let the grilling start.

I breadcrumbed this somewhere, but a miller breadcrumb shouldn't really convince anyone of anything. So um. Yeah.

Where is that breadcrumbing supposed to be ?

[lord_hur]

Vote: Guardian.

I am so itching to just do this. Never anything else has ever appeared so tempting.

[lord_hur]

In your opinion, shouldn't Stoofer, knowing that I had just rejoined the game, have kindly either a) answered my newly formed question, or b) pointed out that he had already answered a differently formed question of similar content in 111?

Well, you sorta answered your own question. Mr Stoofer would have done that if he was playing "kindly". Judging by his play in this game, this is not the case.

I asked your opinion of what Mr. Stoofer should have done. You did not give it in your response, any reason for that?

I thought I answered your question. To develop it, I think he would have probably appeared a bit less scummy had he done a) or b), so that's what he should have done logically.

[lord_hur]

I am seriously wondering what guardian would have to gain if scum by claiming miller. Admitedly Guardian has playede a wierd game and I would dread the day I was given a miller role to play. But In a set up when there is not certainty we have a cop I can't understand drawing so much attention to yourself and trying to insinuate cop. Esentialy Guardians play style led to suspicion and this claim which is always going to be difficult and unhelpful to town.
Ima still on the

very likely jester

side of things and urge no one to hammer.
actualy putting that miller thing in code is dubious to the max as it shows serious forward planning about having to claim in the near future. What better cliam to get lynched than miller, even a scum claim is less likely to get you lynched than miller.
I think guardian played towards a planned claim that I am finding hard to believe but I think of it as less likely to come from scum than from a

Jester

.

Since Guardian's stupid (in my opinion) case against hasdgfas, the possibility that he is a jester has also been on my mind. Logically, there were only 2 explanations to that case :

1. It could be that Guardian is a very bad cop with a guilty result. Since I've read a few of Guardian's games though, I know that he usually plays quite well, so it was not very probable. Moreover, even that the worst cop would do this is quite mindblowing. Yet it was (still is...) a possibility, light as it was/is.
2. Largely more alluring to me is the possibility that he is a jester. Obviously, as Mr Stoofer pointed out, the main advantage of this theory is that it could explain his surprisingly bad playing (including his uncalled-for claim), but I kept the whole thing to myself as it was very early speculation and this is my first game with unconventional roles.

VOD just worded the same theory now though, so I thought I'd say that for maybe the first time in the game, I agree with him.

Excellent progression in your understandabilty lately, by the way

[lord_hur]

undo, could you do prod Shin Hatsubai ?

[lord_hur]

Please don't prod him, replace him!

Yes, I actually agree

[lord_hur]

does anyone believe me we have a jester?

Yes. I said it before and say it again now, and post 377 if proof in my eyes.

ONLY a jester would do that.

[lord_hur]

I have a good feeling Guardian is a Jester I will admit a Jesus Jester is not quite on the time frame of reference for this game. If anyone wishes to hammer to find out the truth it is there but I am not going to be voting for Guardian any time soon.

What is a Jesus Jester ?

[lord_hur]

However, I am positive that Guardian is not a Jester, because Jester's cannot self-vote (that would be contrary to the whole point of a Jester).

It does make sense, but I didn't see this on the wiki :

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jester

And I don't have enough experience to know about it otherwise...

[lord_hur]

Actualy I think it very likely Guardian could in fact be a miller.

Then why haven't you re-voted for him?

Err I don't get it. Why would we want to hammer a miller ? If (big IF) he's confirmed, a miller's still town right ? Wouldn't we be better off lynching someone who has a chance of being scum ?

[lord_hur]

No I don't get it either. I wonder what I actually meant to say? I can't for the life of me remember!

After a bit a thinking, that "mistake" of yours seems rather scummy to me. I think it is the very first time you make one in this game, and it is pretty large at that. It gives me the impression that you didn't think thoroughly about the situation at hand, and thus that you don't care much about causing a myslynch, because you already know that Guardian is town.

By now, I'm 99% sure Guardian is town because he's taking the time to try to help us ; scum would not do that, because their words would be invalidated by their turning up scum.

Guardian, as you're likely to be confirmed very soon, do you have any other leads on who might be scum ?

[lord_hur]

Can you explain why you're so sure ?

[lord_hur]

Here is another reason why I am sure Guardian is Scum. Look at this thread.

Norinel asked this:

Has anyone ever been called out for a breadcrumb before they pointed it out themself? If not, then it seems like a valid scum strategy might be to leave two or three breadcrumbs early on and pick whichever one you like when you need to claim. (Or just ignore them all)

Guardian responded:

Norinel: I have

as scum

, and the town came | | close to believing my cop claim xD.

This was posted the same day as Guardian was forced to admit that he was not a Cop in this game. He must have been referring to this game.

[I found this post during the Night but forgot to post it yesterday.]

I think this reasoning is wrong. Two reasons :

1. In this game, he did not claim cop, but miller.
2. By the time he posted that, only you were alluding to him being cop, and he had not claimed anything yet.

[lord_hur]

Well, I am sure that Guardian was scum because he tried to deceive the Town about being a Cop.

What would be the point of scum pretending to be cop ? That would pretty much give him away to the real cop...

[lord_hur]

I also was suspicious of VOD being a jester, but 2 things were holding me back on saying it :

- it is my first game with non-standard roles ;
- Guardian wasn't in danger of being lynched yet.

I also did not feel that he was so sure back then, he was just argumenting.

[lord_hur]

lord_hur, who did you think was a jester?

Darn, never post when sleepy. I meant Guardian of course.

[lord_hur]

I am going to re-read the whole thread looking for everyone's interactions with Guardian. I suggest everyone else does the same.

Has anyone done this yet?

I have concluded that neither thevampireofdussledorf or hasdgfas are Guardian's scumbuddies based on yesterday's play. I am not confident that I can pick out who

is

his buddy, though.

Yep, but didn't notice many interactions besides with yourself, and it was obviously not buddies working together.

That said, you seem to be the only one convinced of Guardian's scumminess, and this conviction still puzzles me, especially taking into account your rather rational play. I have noticed no real proof of his alignment myself, and none of the arguments you advanced has yet convinced me.

[lord_hur]

I think it's perfectly clear that it was the deceptive faux-cop-breadcrumb that motivated the lynch not the miller claim.

I already asked a question related to this to Mr Stoofer, who did not answer it.

I do not understand at all what would be the point for scum to claim cop, as it would be about the best way to give him away to the real cop.

Could someone could clear up this contradiction ? Because that's the main reason I believe Guardian on his miller claim (and it seems I'm about the only one).

[lord_hur]

Oh I am not cop and am mildyly suspicious about lord hurs post a couple back looks to me like serious role fishing there.

I have no idea where you saw role fishing, but it's stupid to give info on cop's identity, like this not-cop claim you just did, especially as it was totally uncalled for.

[lord_hur]

EBWOP : sorry about my poor wording in my last post, I meant cop breadcrumbing of course, not cop claiming.

OK, here is the Guardian thing in easy steps.

1. Guardian pretended to be a Cop. If you look at his first ~8 posts, you can see he was pretending to be a Cop. I provided an analysis in this post. Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, Guardian admitted that he was pretending to be a Cop with a "guilty" result on SlySly.

2. Guardian was not a Cop.

3.

No pro-town player would ever pretend to be a Cop -- with a guilty result on another player -- when they weren't

. That is a simply fact. Not even a Miller would do this. (I guess a Jester might do this, but we know Guardian was not a Jester because the game hasn't ended.)

4. The reason Scum would breadcrumb as a Cop would be so that if they had to claim later, they could claim Cop. Cop is a good claim for a Scum in a theme game -- there may be more than one Cop, with varying sanities; he might be able to convince the Town that there are multiple Cops with varying sanities; there might not be a Cop; or kabenon007 might have been the Cop (and maybe Guardian knew it, as he killed him). In any of these cases Guardian could get away with a Cop claim. The worst that can happen as Scum if you claim Cop is that you find out who the real Cop is, which is a pretty useful thing in a mini game like this.

I have done this precise thing as Scum - breadcrumbed Cop on day 1 so that I could claim to be the Cop later. This is the post where I claimed Cop and made reference to the numerous hints I had left earlier in the game[/url]. It was a no-reveal game so I thought I could get away with the claim even if there was another Cop.

5. I am not sure why Guardian backed out of his Cop lies. I guess he just lost his nerve, especially since he had rather over-played his hand by pretending to be a Cop

with a guilty result

. He probably also noticed that I had worked out that he was breadcrumbing Cop, and got worried that he was being too obvious.

In short

:

• No way pro-Town Guardian would pretend to be a Cop with a guilty result.
  
• Lots of reasons for Scum Guardian to pretend to be a Cop with a guilty result.
  
• Therefore Guardian = Scum

Guardian never claimed to have a guilty result.

If I were a miller myself, I would view my own life as less important than the other townies', and thus would try if possible to attract a NK.

Cop breadcrumbing, while certainly not the best thing to do for other reasons, could then be seen as a way to achieve this end, and I could also see an experienced player trying to pull this seemingly good idea off.

On the other hand, I now see how cop breadcrumbing could be interesting... to claim cop later. Problem is, he claimed miller, not cop. The whole cop breadcrumbing for later claiming miller still seems a bit too convoluted for a scum strategy.

To sum it up, I'm still not convinced that Guardian is scum.

[lord_hur]

I can't understand a word tvod is saying.

His first paragraph in post 458 is essentially my 2nd sentence in post 457.

The rest is gibberish to me as well.

@lord_hur

: Guardian was pretending to have a guilty result on SlySy. That was how I worked out he was (pretending to be) a Cop. His breadcrumbs were breadrumbs that he had a guilty result on SlySly.

See my analysis in this post; then read the next two posts and you will see that Guardian admits that he was pretending to have a guilty result on SlySly. He claimed that the reason he did that was: "I wanted to see what would happen if I alluded obviously to being cop, most optimally hoping for odd reactions for SlySly that pointed to my random choice being correct, us lynching SlySly, and me being nightkilled".

Ok, but on the other hand, pretending to have a guilty result is the most obvious (I did not say "clever") solution to breadcrumb cop. I don't see it contradicting the "miller willing to attract a NK" theory.

[lord_hur]

Hmm... personally, I think one of the things that would benefit town the most would be to understand how this partial-reveal thing works, why SlySly's role was revealed but not the others'.

[lord_hur]

Hmm... personally, I think one of the things that would benefit town the most would be to understand how this partial-reveal thing works, why SlySly's role was revealed but not the others'.

If you think this is a good idea, do you have any leads? Or do you want everyone else to try to figure this out without you?

Or maybe I am a newbie who got blamed for trying to figure out things at the start of the game and who now wants to be sure that this will not happen again, by posting only the idea at first ?

But noooo you're right, I'm just being lazy.

Ok, since nobody said anything against the idea, here's my thoughts so far . We need to determine the condition triggering the reveal. It could be :

- random : i don't like it ; no way to prove or invalidate it
- pro-town revealed : unlikely, as kabenon was not revealed night 0 and I have trouble imagining a blocked NK + a wild vig
- a role who "tags" people as going to be revealed when they die : unlikely
- vanilla revealed : not much flavor to this solution (and bad for town), but possible
- ... (I'm sure there are more possibilities)

[lord_hur]

I agree with tvod. There is no way we can work out why some roles were revealed and some weren't. And even if we did work it out, how would that catch scum?

You asked for ideas, I gave one.

I know you are SO sure of Guardian's being scum, but I am not. Knowing it for sure would greatly influence the way I see the game.

I personally do not think Musher333 is behaving scummy ; to me he is being pretty consistent with the way he played in last game.

Right now I suspect :

- Mr Stoofer (mainly for trying to establish Guardian as known scum while we still have no certainty about it)
- hasdgfas (lack of agressiveness and low actual content posted)
- HackerHuck (low content, in post 427 he attacks hasdgfas for appearing too convinced about Guardian's scumminess, but no word on Mr Stoofer who claims to be absolutely sure, and lastly the second part of his last post is exactly what I picture scum would say to appear townish)

These are not decisive arguments though.

[lord_hur]

Ah well, anyway there are still a lot of players and he has no vote on him.

Vote HackerHuck

[lord_hur]

Stoofer, you say the only people who are playing to hunt scum are those who have said i look scummy, i am not the only one who people can vote for you know, Stoofer is looking really scummy right now, not sure if i already am voting for him but if not then

Vote: Stoofer

Yes, you can't expect to get away with saying someone is "really scummy" without a good reason to back it up.

[lord_hur]

Ah well, anyway there are still a lot of players and he has no vote on him.

Vote HackerHuck

Way to vote with one foot on the way out the door. You're being awfully non-committal for placing a vote.

I voted you for the same reason you voted Musher333 (post rubbing me the wrong way) plus two others.

I guess we just have different views on the level of justification necessary to cast a vote. I do find yours extremely thin.

[lord_hur]

Post 485 is clearly the post of Scum flailing around.

Or it could be someone who naturally finds it hard to argue, look at my 2 completed games, in the first one i had trouble arguing, didn't turn out scum.

Yeah, it's true. In that game that Mr Stoofer modded, he was cop, had a guilty on me, but couldn't convince the other guy for the life of him. I wasn't great (bullshitting for the first time), but still got him lynched in no time.

I'm not saying he's town. But personally I take his inability to argue as a fact, and I try to eliminate it when assessing his scumminess.

[lord_hur]

You may be right.

Musher333, can you explain - as precisely as possible - (I can't stress this enough, and please, more than one sentence) why you are thinking that Mr Stoofer seems "really scummy" ?

[lord_hur]

One person stood out to me, lord_hur:
- comment very frequently on the game but doesn't come up with a case of his own
- ask many question with a vague air of accusation, but never seems to infer anything from people's answer
- repeat that he is a newbie

1. I am very sorry that I am (arguably with Mr Stoofer) the most active in this game. I will try to make amends as soon as possible.
The problem with your reasoning is, asking a lot of questions and posting what my thinking whenever possible is info gathering. It has nothing to do with exploiting said info. The former has to be public, while the latter is private (until one feels their conclusions or leads are solid enough). But both are essential, and I think I have done my fair share of work globally.
That said, I don't know what you means by having "a case of my own"... Are you blaming me for not knowing for sure that someone is scum ? Because if you mean I didn't give my leads, I just gave them a few posts earlier.

2. Too vague. Any example ? But anyway this is essentially the same as #1

3. .... what ? I only said I'm a newbie to explain my questions or my behavior. And that surely didn't save me any bashing.


@SeraphicMirth : did you do write down these notes before or after receiving your role PM ?

[lord_hur]

The sarcasm isn't doing you any grace, quantity doesn't equate to quality. Town do not do 'info gathering', town find suspicious people, press charges and judge - this is the meaning of 'coming with a case of your own'. Your vote on Harcker stinks, even more so because of your claim of being new.
1) You indicated that your vote was only half-heartfelt, why vote if you don't want to? Because people you know are town asked maybe?
2) If you are new, you probably don't know that a)not coming up with a case of your own b)being a people's pleaser c)leaving an exit door while casting a vote, are scumtell.

2a and 2c are bullshit, but 2b and 1 (which are the same thing) are indeed a scumtell that i noticed before. I can't really explain why I cast that vote. Brainfart I guess. Or maybe I was influenced by Mr Stoofer's experience.

I said a 'vague air of suspicion' and no, it is not the same as 1. Examples? Sure.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 78#1001978
This post stinks to high heaven, it is I believe totally artificial. A town mind doesn't come up with so many vaguely relevant questions addressed to so many people, it is more likely a post by a scum who want to look busy - especially since you don't seem to be garnering any insight in the game from the answers you got. Other examples abound, look at your own post history.

Oh hell yes it was completely artificial. I started thinking about a few questions, then thought "hey, why not one for every player, I never tried that, maybe I'll get some interesting reactions?". Sounded like a good idea back then, but it totally failed, as almost anyone ignored it. And yes, it ended up completely artificial.

Yes, and it is called playing the newbie card, justification of one's behavior which has been pointed out as scummy by invocation of alleged newbiness. And no, it certainly shouldn't save you any bashing, your newbie game was for something. Are you really not understanding this?

Oh, I'm understanding this, but I claim bullshit on it, because it can be applied to any newb. Instead of pointing to it, you should say what scumtell(s?) I was allegedly trying to cover.

On the whole, I hate your posting pattern. You asks many questions, opening leads all over the place, but never commit to any strong conviction yourself, nor do seem to follow a distinct direction - I think of the people who where pushing stuff around D1, you were the main culprit. I think you are scum.

Yes, I suck at this game. I can't believe it took me 5 games to figure it out.

@SeraphicMirth : did you do write down these notes before or after receiving your role PM ?

Noted.

You are seriously implying this was not a valid question? The answer completely changes the way you can use the analysis. If she wrote it before she got her role PM, it is unbiased, not if she did it after.

@others : keep in mind that it's pretty easy to find a few scumtells in that many posts, and she's having an easy time because no one can strike her back since she's replacing a ghost.

[lord_hur]

Translation to Lord_hur's defence: "I can't be scum because scum wouldn't be posting as much as I do"

I've seen it happen many times where scum carry a passive game and move it in the direction they want to go. It's a crap excuse, but I don't think you're experienced enough to take advantage of the town that way. I could however, see Mr Stoofer doing that.

springlullaby's post seems to come out of nowhere and she's giving lord_hur the full court press. It seems a bit contrived to me.

As to add to your 'i cant be scum' part of Lords post he spoke about the same amount in the last game we were in together, and there he was scum, he got by seeming not anti town but at the same time didn't do anything to make himself seem pro-town.

Did not do anything to look pro-town ? Damn, I thought I was doing a pretty good job at looking pro-town, doing almost all the scumpair probability analysis and bussing my pal for pretty solid reasons :/

[lord_hur]

Hmmm I didn't think about it earlier, but hasdgfas' last post just rang a bell. Let me tell you a little story :

Three days ago, I lost my first game, essentially because one scum (Danix) was never posting more than 2 posts a week (on good weeks... he got away with not posting for more than 2 weeks once...), and never more than 1 sentence, which never made any sense whatsoever. That he did not get lynched day 1 was beyond me, but one of the ICs made a couple of really bad moves (kinda like Guardian in this game), and the townies (and the scum that was actually playing) soon dropped him.
I (cop) easily investigated that scum (yay for craplogic users) and got him lynched. Right before (and I mean, the post before) night 2, Danix got replaced by someone with a - very good - brain (MichelSableHeart) who NKed me and easily convinced one of the 2 other newbs the other was scum.
Basically, he won partly (mostly?) because no one ever had a chance to get a reading on Danix.

Just saying that maybe town can't get a decent lead because (at least) one of the scum was out of the game or not posting much content.

[lord_hur]

Things

- overaggressiveness
- insults
- heavy word twisting

I have no intention of replying to what she said, unless one of the other players shows interest in one (or more) of her insults/questions.

Part of her initial arguments (before it completely degenerated) was quite well backed up - more than my own case, I must admit - so I thought her as pretty town-like (though it's hard to judge on only one post).

But this one is seriously lower in quality. I now think there is a distinct possibility she is just pushing for a quick lynch.

[lord_hur]

Hackerhuck, I can see what you are getting at but I'd prefer you criticize the content of my case and that you make clear your opinion on lord_hur.
What's phony in my case apart from the aggressiveness - which I can assure you is genuine?

The implication of my post is that you are scum bussing your scumbuddy lord_hur. I believe you are faking anger/emotion at him being scummy. I'm not disagreeing with what you said, rather how you said it.

I could move this along with a

vote: Lord_hur

Ive got to agree with this, there seems to be just a lil over acting going on there.

Yes, as I've said already, I think there's a possibility that she's overacting, but the bussing part seems a bit far-fetched. I've never seen it done so aggressively and out of the blue, usually bussing scum kick a partner that is already down or at least in difficulty.

I also find it interesting that he voted for me and not for her, without an explanation on the choice.

[lord_hur]

Calling parts of springlullaby's case BS (without any further elaboration) is not helpful

Alright, since I said I would answer questions if another player is interested in them, here goes :

1.building case of your own : I call BS on it because :
a. there are many factors that can lead to a townie not posting their case :
- he sucks and can't locate a scumtell for the life of him (this is partly my case)
- he does not like to vote for light reasons and prefers to have a very strong case against someone before committing to a vote (partly my case as well)
- in my last game, I withheld my quite heavy case (guilty result) because I wanted to stay unnoticed, and because I wanted to put another player I had strong doubts about, in front of the lead I followed, and see if he was going to follow it or try to protect his pal (posting this as a precise example so screechingharpy does not accuse me of role fishing or something ; you never know - also, this is done without prejudice of the possibility of me being cop in this game)

b. it is about as easy for scum (maybe even easier, as he knows for sure who he can attack), because scumtells are very subjective elements, and you can always find them if you twist what townies said enough. Best part is, as they are so subjective, scum are likely to get away with about anything. This game is so very mind-boggling at times.

2. leaving an exit door while voting : never heard about or noticed this one. Should scum want to backtrack and lash at another, more heavily laden with votes person, they just agree with others' opinions, or throw a few subjective scumtells for good measure, and switch. Townies would do it like that as well. There is no need for scum to "leave an exit door".

[lord_hur]

Btw SL, i can take care of my own defense, thank you. There are only 2 votes on me right now, both questionable (at various degrees). I do not feel in danger.

[lord_hur]

Nice role fishing there screechingharpy.

SL, I don't know what your intent is, but please remember this is a no-reveal game. If a person claims, he/she will not be confirmed. Everything he/she says will not be taken for sure pro-town talk, even after death. So (though based only on my reasoning, as it's my first no-reveal game) claiming is a lesser strategy than in normal games.

[lord_hur]

I'm not liking your play Hacker.

Votecount please.

What would be the point of doing this type of gambit at L-3, seriously ? Unless you're thinking your little play is going to get me lynched on the spot ? Because then I will take great delight in your disappointment.

screechingharpy, you should think a bit before jumping at the first hint of deceiving playstyle... Most people aren't as mentally twisted as you seem to be (I want to believe you're only playing a role).

[lord_hur]

SL, I don't know what your intent is, but please remember this is a no-reveal game. If a person claims, he/she will not be confirmed. Everything he/she says will not be taken for sure pro-town talk, even after death. So (though based only on my reasoning, as it's my first no-reveal game) claiming is a lesser strategy than in normal games.

lord_hur, do you know that the person lynched today will not have their role revealed?

You're right, "partially no-reveal game" would have been more appropriate. I am not sure on the logic behind it (and I was bashed earlier for trying to uncover it, so I guess you're thinking it's useless), but it seems, from the current ratio (2/3), that there's a good chance to not get revealed.

[lord_hur]

Okay, this post did have interesting questions and did not have "I HATE YOU / YOU SUCK" written all over it.

If you think I was rolefishing and that it is scummy, why aren't you voting me?

Because I don't think it is enough to justify a vote.

Right now, my viewing of you is :

- attack backed up by some good arguments : -10
- use of some inappropriate arguments (in my opinion ; that's what I all craplogic) : +5
- role fishing : +15
- lacking the most basic rules of politeness : 0

Scum rating : 60 % - not enough to justify a vote

What gambit? What are you even talking about?

Hmm, then why were you asking for a votecount ?

"Take great delight in your disappointment'? Wtf?

That was not proper english ? Sorry, it is not my first language. I meant it will please me to counter your plans of getting me lynched.

?????? Please evidence of my being 'mentally twisted'?

Because all* of what I said have a pro-town explanation, but you never aknowledge it and always go straight for the scummy explanation, however unlikely it might be.

* Even casting that vote on HH : it was premature, and I only did it because Mr Stoofer asked everyone to cast a vote, but I did not do it to please him, but because he was right in saying that votes make the game go forward. If the request is justified, town will try to answer it positively too.

You're like a lawyer, only presenting the side of the case that suit your needs (and yes, I think all lawyers are mentally twisted, at least when they build a case).

In fact, you seem so one-sided, I begin to think you're, like a lawyer (where the cash comes from = good side), absolutely sure of the side they have to be on, so 2 possibilities :

- you're town : that you can legitimately be sure of my being scum means that I have made such ridiculous mistakes that they leave no room for uncertainty. The problem is, you're the only one who noticed them. So, unless you're some kind of all-seeing genius, it is quite unlikely.

- you're scum : in this case, you *are* sure that I am town (or scum, if you would be trying to bus me, though in this case, I think we'd be pretty awesome actors).

In short, I'm beginning to suspect that you're too sure of my side to be town.

[lord_hur]

I'm not quite satisfied with a Musher333 wagon either :/

I've done a complete redread on him and didn't get any scummy vibe.

However, his semi-nonsensical style of play (misunderstanding lots of things, having somtimes a limited view of the game, etc) is quite hard to read for me, so I resorted to metagaming :

- as I've already said, his play is consistent with last game's, in which he was town ;
- in his post 44, he said :

I would ask everyone to do that, if i get lynched i get lynched but remember if/when i do and i come up town who was pushing for my lynch.

which was about the same thing he said in Mafia 80: Nice Shot!, just before getting lynched as townie 3 days ago ;
- I don't picture him as saying this, and later that he would claim if necessary, in order to deceive us.

These are certainly not decisive arguments (especially as my meta is truncated, as he has not been confirmed scum in any game yet), but enough to make me say there are other, more scummy targets in my opinion.

[lord_hur]

Yes, but I did not comment on it.

[lord_hur]

lord_hur - you say there are many more scummy people

Well, it's not so much others that look more scummy than Musher333 who looks slightly less scummy to me. Right now I'd give him a 40% scum rating, which means that most people are at the same level or above him.

Besides spring lullaby, who I read as doing a completely normal analysis that got blown out of proportion

I hope you're kidding ? I've read a lot of games, and I've never read such an acid-laden case. I've even read some of her other games, and, unless I missed something, this is the first time she does this. She clearly wanted to bring me down with one huge blow, and when it wasn't enough, went over the top with another even more acidic write-up.

She designed it to be out of proportion, it is not my doing.

who are these people you think are so much more suspicious than musher? I saw one post where you did like one line on a few people, care to expand on anyone? what are you thinking?

springlullaby (65%) : already covered (the 5% more are for my reasoning about her being too sure)
HackerHuck (60%) : in addition to what I said earlier - quite uncommittal, comments on things but from afar, even that vote's justification was pretty neutral in addition of being light (but the vote still is there)
hasdgfas (60%) : confirmation of what I said earlier : 2 posts in nearly 20 days
Mr Stoofer (55%) : nothing more, as he's away

[lord_hur]

Hmm Musher333.... sorry, but hasdgfas' attack hardly compares. He's rather civil, not overaggressive and did no word twisting.

hasdgfas is apparently only following Mr Stoofer's opinion (he gave absolutely no reason for his vote, so that's my best guess).

So please reply to Mr Stoofer's (valid) question. I don't share his views, but I am also very interested in your answer.

And, for god's sake, try to construct your answer for once (take that as an exercise if you will : as long as you don't perform decently in this, you WILL get lynched simply for playing badly, over and over):/

[lord_hur]

Lord_hur - how have I been non-commital? I believe I locked onto Guardian and stuck with him almost all of day one.

Actually, that's another thing I have against you, thanks for reminding me : you voted for Guardian while at the same time saying you didn't know if he were town or scum.

But here, I was talking about day 2 :
- your only attack this day (springlullaby bussing me) is pretty weak and hard to give credit to in my opinion - though I might be biased, so if someone else could comment on this...
- your Musher333 vote was only following Mr Stoofer with no additional argument -> weak vote
- you basically voted me just because someone else was voting me (and someone you're apparently suspecting of being scum, at that), while implying that you voted just to get the game going -> weak vote

[lord_hur]

Actually, that's another thing I have against you, thanks for reminding me : you voted for Guardian while at the same time saying you didn't know if he were town or scum.

Quote please.

These are the two post you did after your actual vote :

I'm not sure if I need to repeat any of the things that everyone else has said about you Guardian. It should be obvious to you why Millers are bad news to the town. It's a crappy claim because the only way to prove it is by lynching you. Scum would never kill a miller, which means that the town has to do it at some point. The only good news is that cops won't bother wasting an investigation on you, but you pretty much blew that by crumbing cop to begin with.

Like the others, I think you forgot that I was already voting you, so my vote was more of a confirmation than anything else - hence the context.

If you're town, then I guess you did us a favor by claiming miller so we can kill you sooner rather than later, but that's small comfort.

In this one, you're only considering Guardian being town.

Jesters are pretty darn rare and I sure would hope that self-voting invalidates their win condition.

Guardian, I don't like how you keep trying to portray my vote on you as one that is based on your supposed millership. I had voted you prior to that and your claim has only cemented my vote. My comments were all related to how millers are bad news for the town. If you can tell me one good thing the miller does for the town, then I will admit I'm wrong (but I still won't pull my vote).

I've seen scum claim miller as often as I've seen town do it. It's not going to get you off the hook in my eyes.


I don't like how TVOD reacted by pushing the jester angle, but I'm not sure if it should be chalked up to newbishness.

In this one, Guardian was right (in my opinion) to believe you voted him for being a miller. We don't know what's in your head, but that's actually the way it appeared to me too. And you nail the "vote for townie" further by saying you won't unvote, even if he proves you you're wrong.

And to conclude this, you say metagaming couldn't tell you whether he had a greated chance to be scum or town...

But here, I was talking about day 2 :
- your only attack this day (springlullaby bussing me) is pretty weak and hard to give credit to in my opinion - though I might be biased, so if someone else could comment on this...
- your Musher333 vote was only following Mr Stoofer with no additional argument -> weak vote
- you basically voted me just because someone else was voting me (and someone you're apparently suspecting of being scum, at that), while implying that you voted just to get the game going -> weak vote

How is this non-commital?

Ah, maybe I used a wrong term. Sorry then, I just meant I think you didn't come up with any good arguments, in my eyes, during day 2, and thus that your votes are looking scummy to me.

[lord_hur]

Since lord_hur and Musher333 are the two lynch leaders at the moment, I'd like to see each of them post detailed thoughts on the other.

Thanks.

What part of post 561 would you like me to develop ?

Also, this question makes me a bit uneasy, as it could be viewed as an attempt to restrict votes to me or Musher333, or even (though this one is more far-fetched) as an incentive for me to hammer Musher333 to save my own hide.

[lord_hur]

Musher, if you want to claim, then claim and save us the pushing around.

Yay for even more role fishing. You basically said there that what you're hoping to get out of the "pushing around" was his role, and not to get scum lynched.

Unless you have another explanation ?


Also, I've already said that, but I will say it again : claiming is much more risky for town than in a normal game, because of the no-reveal rule. Town will NEVER (unless undo placed a special mechanism) know whether you lied or not, while scum will know your role as normal.

So, town, think twice about it.

But this is only my opinion : who, besides springlullaby, thinks Musher333 should claim and why ?

[lord_hur]

hasdgfas is apparently only following Mr Stoofer's opinion (he gave absolutely no reason for his vote, so that's my best guess).

Hello misrepresentation. Just because I didn't explicitly state my reasoning for my vote doesn't mean I'm just following stoofer. I definitely have reasons for it, but I really want to hear some defense from Musher before I say too much.

My bad, you're right. I would so like to hear his defense too (hell, even in his broken style, at this point).

[lord_hur]

Also:

OMFG how have we not lynched Musher yet? Do you guys not understand the fact that he gave himself away, by accusing me of being scum

for defending Guardian

. That means that

he knew that Guardian was scum

. And the only way he could have known that was if he was Guardian's scum buddy.

FFS guys, can we get this game going please?

Btw, I have an argument against this (and this is also why I'm not voting for him), but I don't want to help him in case he's scum, so I'll not post it before he defends himself.

[lord_hur]

Well one thing im thinking about is if i get replaced will they be happy (the replacement) if i have claimed

If you're town, how can you ask yourself this question and still claim ? I know I'd be furious if I replaced a doc who gave away his role without even trying to defend himself by simply refuting the arguments used against him...

Especially after everything I said against claiming in this game ><

[lord_hur]

Yes, please disclose your name, it should not give additional info to scum

I'm not sure that your food type should be disclosed just yet though, as it might help them.

[lord_hur]

Yes, please disclose your

name

, it should not give additional info to scum

I'm not sure that your food type should be disclosed just yet though, as it might help them.

Are you selectively not reading my posts or something ? And Mr Stoofer was asking your name too...

[lord_hur]

Stuff

Sigh. Back to insults. I am done wasting my time with you.


Musher333, your name claim surprises me as well.

[lord_hur]

Lord_hur - I believe that Musher brought up the topic of claiming before anyone else, so I don't see how Springlullaby can really be accused of rolefishing.

Darn it, you're right. She was right, I was being thick about this : she just meant Musher333 wanted to claim no matter what.
The fact that he still claimed after I basically told him not to do so supports that too.

The only thing that doesnt match, is the name he claimed. I would rather picture him taking a name fitting the setup...

Maybe you're the nervous scumbuddy who was afraid his partner didn't have a good claim thought up yet.

If I were Musher333's partner (so assuming me and him scum), I would not have expected any good claim from him. I would just have bussed him. Also, if I were his partner, he would have listened to me when I said not to claim.

[lord_hur]

Hi all. Will finish a full read-through and post opinions by the end of the weekend

Roger. I hope you will be less confusing than VOD...

[lord_hur]

What kind of doc refuse a free protect?

I don't believe this claim, I'm gonna let everyone have their say before switching my vote.

He said he protected hasdgfas night 0, and thevampireofdusseldorf night 1.

[lord_hur]

Done D1. Lack of role-reveals makes the game a lot trickier huh...

Regarding the lynch on Guardian - I'm still unsure of his alignment. He obviously played poorly, regardless of whether or not he was telling the truth. The most significant points I noticed that make me confident he was scum were: His role (Jew), his terrible pseudo-cop play, and his self-hammer. However, putting these (significant) things aside, the way he played his game seemed very much like a fumbling pro-town. The way he was apologizing for poor play, his talk of his own lynch and how he was hurting town, his statements at the end of the day about thoughts on other players. His last page of D1 where he talked about Stoofer being his biggest suspect, and listed 3 people as likely town, I find exceptionally interesting. If he knew that his role wasn't going to be revealed upon death, then he made a clever move. However it's unclear if scum understand the mechanics at work here - if he thought his role was going to be revealed, then I'd expect he was a miller. I'm unclear where he got the confidence that the 3 said people were so likely town, which makes me think he was scum...

Holy... this is nearly exactly what I'm thinking about Guardian. This Jew thing had me ticking too, but then undo would have had to find a way to apply miller to the setting, so why not a person practicing the religion but not following them politically ? So, not a big thing for me.
The rest is very well on point though, in my opinion.

[lord_hur]

Claiming in parts is very sketchy. First "I'm doc," then "I'm a physician," then "my name is Kamazu," then "I protected XX on N0 and YY on n1." This is the best point against his claim.

I don't think it is that good of a point. Musher333 has no skill whatsoever in constructing a good defense, and rarely posts 2 sentences linked to each other. Everything he says IS sketchy.

I'd like someone to elaborate on their suspicion about the name claim - Hur and Stoofer in particular. I have both a point for and against the name claim, and will say so after I hear why you think the name claim is BS.

I never said I think it's BS. I said I find it surprising, as it is not at all in line with my own name. But I would rather picture scum googling "Thabit" (the only town name disclosed), finding it's an arabic name, and taking a random ancient-looking arabic name. So I think it's actually a point in his favor.

[lord_hur]

It's "not at all" in line with your own name?? That suggests a stark difference. I must be missing something with the names. It doesn't seem all that crazy different from mine unless, like I said, I'm missing some aspect of the names that I don't understand. hmmf.

I'm just saying it is not in line with Thabit and my own name put together. They are of a similar origin, so I assumed all of town names were in the same line. Hence my surprise at his claim. Now it could just be a coincidence, as it's hard to know with this little info.

Also HackerHuck said this:

I'm now thinking Musher is likely scum from that claim and it's not because his name is weird.

Yet, lord_hur says it is because of the name? So...are there two different arguments against the claim?

No, reread it. My argument with the name was actually in favor of his claim.

and I completely echo what SL says in his last line. I've been in a game where the "oh they just don't play well" lead to letting the person slip by for quite some time and they turned up scum.

Yes, that worries me too. As I've already said, I have trouble reading him. I'm trying to take his terrible style and lack of comprehension out of the equation, but there is not much left :/ This recent claim is basically the only objective element we have.

[lord_hur]

and he comes up town

There is a flaw in your plan...

[lord_hur]

Hmm, without disrupting pre-deadline conversation, could we get a name origin claim for everyone ? Maybe we won't get anything out of it, but maybe we will...

More importantly, let's say if you believe Musher333's claim, and, as we don't have much time, who are the top suspects in your opinion.

I tend to believe his claim (about 70% sure). Not giving any reasons yet.

My main suspects are still (but in a different order) :

1. Mr Stoofer (I still don't like his "I'm sure he's scum" attitude, and I tend to believe the two claims he actively obtained)
2. HackerHuck (no change)
3. springlullaby (part of my scum rating was influenced by my hate for the playstyle she adopted in this game, so taking her down a notch ; she's still there though)


Don't forget we can ask for an extension of the deadline.

[lord_hur]

Can you explain your train of thoughts between this :

I'm also not happy with Mr Stoofer's press to lynch Musher to get the game moving. Especially with a replacement, I think fresh blood might reinvigorate this game a bit and I'm certainly not buying the case on Musher. If this were a full reveal game, I would agree that a lynch is helpful, but I don't believe that to be the case here.

And this :

Vote: Musher33

I didn't buy his claim at first and you guys are convincing me that it's pretty suspect. I was hoping to hammer, so I'm really not happy with SpringLullaby's unvote.

Only a couple days, and 1 post from you separate them.

[lord_hur]

Lord_hur, your vote has been on HackerHuck for a while now, but you don't seem to be very concerned to get him lynched, why?

I posted all the reasons I voted him, and attack him when possible.

What else could I do ? (and this is an honest question, I'm sure there are many things I can improve in my playstyle).

[lord_hur]

EBWOP : I posted all the reasons I voted him, and attack him when possible, and there are not many opportunities, as he's next to non-existent in my opinion - and the few attacks he does are really uninspiring and worthless to me, as I've already said.

[lord_hur]

Also :

I'm for name origin claim, I want Hackerhuck to do it before other people.

Sorry for the multiple posts.

[lord_hur]

lord_hur - please don't just read my posts in isolation. Musher claimed in between those posts you quoted.

Yes I know. If you prefer, I would like to know :

- why you didn't buy his claim
- what in other people's posts made you think he's scum
- arguments in favor of him being town, if you have some

In fact, I think it would be interesting to know everyone's position (with justifications...) on Musher333's claim.

[lord_hur]

I think the accuracy of the claim is too good to be ignored.

If there's a doc in the game, it must be a physician.

If Musher is scum, then scum must have a lot of information about the game that we don't know.

WHAT!?!?!?

Hmm my low proficiency in english betrays me there. I *think* he means physician is the perfect term for a doctor in ancient times, but I am not sure. I need an explanation about this from you as well, strife220.

[lord_hur]

I believe is the only other person with more than 1 vote on him.

Nope, one vote only on me (springlullaby unvoted a few posts back).

[lord_hur]

Hur is right. I mean, if there is a doc in the came, then physician is the perfect job-title, because that's what they called the people who did the job of doctors:

http://www.egyptologyonline.com/the_physician.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_medicine
http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ancien ... dicine.htm

The only other title I would imagine for a doctor would be something religion-based. e.g. "spirit healer" or something like that. But given SlySly's job title and my own, both of which lack ties to mythology, I would imagine that 'physician' is far more likely.

You're right SL that scum could have made up the title, but a lack of counter-claim makes me think he's telling the truth. Of course given the 'no-reveal' rules, counter-claiming is risky in and of itself...

So I guess my logic is:
There's a very good chance of there being a doctor in this game (as in most minis).
If there's a doctor, there's a very good chance their title is 'Physician.'
Given that Musher said he was a doctor with the title Physician, I think he's either telling the truth, or our real doc (if we have one) has decided that since there is a no-reveal rule, counter-claiming wouldn't be smart.

The claim fits too well with the flavor of the game. I believe he's telling the truth.

I *completely* agree with all this. Furthermore, I really can't picture Musher333, of all players, coming up with such good flavor. And as his disorganised claim - which seems to be the main negative point raised against him - seems perfectly in line with "The Musher Way" to me,
I'd say I'm now 90% sure Musher333's claim is genuine.

There is absolutely no way in hell I'm voting for him, unless someone brings up a valid new point.

Bash me if you will.

[lord_hur]

Errm...the origin name claim thing is kinda pointless.

Well, I still think it could be interesting, but since everyone but me and springlullaby is against it and you can't all be scum, I'll drop the subject :/

[lord_hur]

I found something in my slight reread that I think is very interesting. A little while ago, strife pulled out this crazy theory:

As a side-theory that people may attack me for since it's heavy on speculation, is that scum may get to find out the identity of who they kill. This would explain the perfect job title as well as his eagerness to claim, if N0 kill (forget his name) was the doc.

An interesting theory to be sure, no evidence either way, but it does make you wonder. However, he seems to forget his own theory here:

You're right SL that scum could have made up the title, but a lack of counter-claim makes me think he's telling the truth. Of course given the 'no-reveal' rules, counter-claiming is risky in and of itself...

So I guess my logic is:
There's a very good chance of there being a doctor in this game (as in most minis).
If there's a doctor, there's a very good chance their title is 'Physician.'
Given that Musher said he was a doctor with the title Physician, I think he's either telling the truth, or our real doc (if we have one) has decided that since there is a no-reveal rule, counter-claiming wouldn't be smart.

First off, if strife's theory is correct, it would explain why Musher's claim is so "perfect" even if he is scum. Someone mentioned that they couldn't see musher coming up with that flavor. Well, maybe he didn't have to.
Next, I find it strange that strife would come up with that theory out of the blue like that.

Well, if you really believe this, you could ask Musher333 for more flavor... Maybe* scum received more info than town on their kill, but I can't imagine it being more than raw name and role.

*Can someone with no-reveal game experience tell me if scum usually get more info than town on their kill ?

[lord_hur]

And now Musher himself can't even remember how he claimed. He said healer. Or was it doctor? Maybe it was medical specialist?

Come on now, it's time to drop the hammer.

Ahaha, I just finished a post in a newbie game I'm IC in, and I'll just copy and paste part of it here, as it perfectly applies :

Oh yes, I'd like to give an extra piece of advice on something that hurt town in most of the games I played as newbie. Bad play does not necessarily mean the person is scum. Go beyond the mistakes and try to dertermine what motivation this person, if he's scum, could have for doing this, and only vote if you can see one.

This mistake illustrates my reasoning on Musher333 well, and HackerHuck's reaction comforts me in my vote.

[lord_hur]

lord_hur - The only problem is that sometimes mistakes are made by scum and their mistakes mean a lot more to us. Also, some scum players aren't quite so skilled to calculate a real good plan/motivation (i.e. it's possible they get backed into a corner, don't know what to say to defend [end up saying dumb things], etc.) So, the trick is really discerning town mistake vs scum mistake, and that's a bit more nuanced.

I agree that "slips" are usually a fair scumtell, what I said wasn't accurate (way to go for an IC ><). But this particular mistake doesn't tell me anything like this. I can see no other explanation for it than pure mistake.

But that's only me, go on and find one.

People, don't vote just because of the mistake, as HackerHuck and hasdgfas suggested.

[lord_hur]

And that he's being general in describing his role. I mean, I suppose it's a scum tell, but it's not a strong one. I guess that's the problem I'm having.

I can't really see what you mean here. What would you be expecting in a good claim, regarding this point ? If he's being general, can't you ask him precisions ?

(and then I get into the thinking of "well what if every person we try to lynch claims?" and then I go around in circles in my head again, I dunno).

Still, accusation is about the only tool town has. So (and this is a general call) take up that gun and aim it at someone, dammit.

I really feel there is not enough risks taken in this game. Could everyone clearly say who they are suspecting and why ?

[lord_hur]

I'm not liking the single mindedness here, nor from you nor from HackerHuck or hasfdgas

Yes, this stroke me as odd too. They do not even consider that they could be wrong, or the consequences of it. They just want Musher333 dead, period.

I'm for an extension, of course.

[lord_hur]

Man, why is that everytime you post you ring my scumdar. I'm so not liking your 360 change of attitude toward me considering how you appeared to be upset by me not long ago.

Strange, I had the same impression about you. I was seriously surprised about you agreeing with me, after you tried to bring me down so hard, and was wondering about this... 180 change of attitude (360=no change of direction...), and actually suspected you a bit for it.

Anyway, I really hate how you play. I have the distinct feeling that your only objective is to make my life miserable.

[lord_hur]

You said you had something on Musher's claim that made you think it was maybe genuine, what is it I want you say.

Is this an actual question ? (god I hope not, after everything I said on the subject) Is it even a sentence ?

[lord_hur]

Is this an actual question ? (god I hope not, after everything I said on the subject) Is it even a sentence ?

You said that you wanted to say, so what's the matter?

Tell you what, I post a ciphered message with the reason I think Musher's claim may be genuine, then you post yours and I post the cipher.

Of course all this may actually means nothing, but to me it will make clear if you actually have a reason to not support the musher lynch, and not just hinting at thin air to prevent a buddy lynch.

How about that?

You're thick. I just said I didn't understand what you said.

Ciphering isn't needed. I believe everything I wanted to say on the matter, had been said either by me or by strife220 before I explained myself.

[lord_hur]

You're thick. I just said I didn't understand what you said.

Are you serious?

Is this an actual question ? (god I hope not, after everything I said on the subject) Is it even a sentence ?

I read the 'god I hope not' part as suggestive of you having made some kind of sense out of my question, and only taking the mickey out of my grammar. Why would you lie on something like that?

There was no question mark, and these words were not forming a proper english sentence. So, although I thought there was a possibility that it was an actual question, I asked for a confirmation from you. Is that clear enough ?

I tend to believe his claim (about 70% sure).

Not giving any reasons yet.

I was referring to this, have you given all your reasons yet?

Yes. I know I suck so much and that I will never come close to your astounding level of play, no need to tell me about it yet again. Anyway here are those reasons again :
- having played twice with Musher333, I strongly doubt he could come up with such appropriate flavor, and I also find very unlikely that he could have had that flavor from scummy means ;
- the name he claimed didn't look like something I could picture him taking in case he is scum;
- there was no counter-claim.

[lord_hur]

EBWOP: forgot this one :
- how he played till now has been in line with how he played in other games in which he was town.

[lord_hur]

Just something i have found, the main person who is trying to lynch me forgot one thing that he could have asked me about my role which would (practically) prove my innocence, i think only town get this info as they normally have more information so i am guessing since that never came up it could be because he never knew of it, lets see Stoofer, can you think of what that question is? (Noone else answer i wanna see him struggle)

Musher333, are you sure this is info that every townie has ?

[lord_hur]

I didn't get that from his post. I thought he was trying to say that his food choice is what clears him - a hebrew would not eat pork for lunch...

Yes I understood that too. Why he thought that would clear him is beyond me though, as we have no way of knowing whether he lied or not about his food claim.

What I'm worried about, is the info several of us gave about their food type. I hope there's no scum role able to take advantage of it.

[lord_hur]

Anyway, those that think we should not lynch Musher333 right now, could you please post your top suspects, with your reasons of course ?

[lord_hur]

I think Has would be a good choice for the day.

He's been more active in other games than this current one, despite all that's happened here.

He's been generally unhelpful, and has been much more a follower of bandwagons then one who's posted his own ideas and theories to justify votes. The justification of his lynch also doesn't rely on on knowing Guardian's alignment. Moreover, if his role isn't revealed upon death, we will lose much less information than if someone more active is lynched without a role-reveal.

This is not a very good reason for lynching someone. Activity differences between games are not a tell, and lynching someone who is, as you say, "being unhelpful" is not at all the same as lynching someone who is scum. Getting into a "let's lynch lurkers" is terrible for the town, because lurkers doesn't mean scum.

Maybe it is not a good reason in itself, but how about someone lurking (or posting uncommitting things) during the discussion about Musher333's claim ? Couldn't it be viewed as a way to not be caught lying, as he has no actual input to give due to his scummyness ?

[lord_hur]

A question to all of you interested in the "name" claiming. When guardian claimed to be a miller - he said he was jewish - why did no one press him to reveal his name? We debated Guardian's claim quite a bit, but that one was thing not asked of him.

Because I didn't think about it, and Guardian's self vote and hasdgfas' hammer ended the discussion pretty fast. What's your point ?

[lord_hur]

lord_hur - Said he's not for a Musher lynch, but hasn't offered up any other opinion. Hypocritically, he actually stated how he wants everybody else to post Their top suspicions. Hur - What would YOU be happy with doing come deadline.

WTF, are you blind ? I posted several times who I would be happy to see lynched and why : HackerHuck, Mr Stoofer, springlullaby (though the last is losing ground in favor of hasdgfas, because he's not been active enough during the Musher claim examination).

[lord_hur]

And that's why I asked twice for people to post who they found scummy, like I did. Both times I was ignored though ><

[lord_hur]

Sorry for double post but-

Musher-scum would not be clever enough to do something like this

Non taken but thats getting sigged

Musher333, you're great. I would be SO pissed if you're scum

[lord_hur]

Following a re-read, the two that stand out as most likely potential scum are still, for me, musher333 and TVOD. However, TVOD's replacement does not seem anywhere near as scummy, and it is true that lynching the doctor, if that's what musher really is, is a terrible idea.

I can sort of see why people have expressed suspicion of Mr Stoofer from time to time, but can't pin it down. There's a vague sense of unease, but that's not enough to go on.

To reiterate why I find musher suspicious - it's not the claim, in any way. That leaves me neither hot nor cold. What worries me about him is the way that he seemed to twist what people were saying so often, by misunderstanding them in such a way that it made either them or someone else seem unnecessarily scummy. Not once or twice, but several times, which is what makes me think it's not a simple case of misunderstanding. We all misunderstand things, but that often?

So, we're back to

Vote: Musher333

If he really is the doctor then obviously that's a bad thing, but I truly cannot find anyone scummier-seeming than him.

Did you read other games from him ? Games in which he was confirmed town ? He is always like that.

[lord_hur]

Come on people, can't you come up with two or three names of people you'd be fine with getting lynched ? Scum must be really talented then, because I really doubt there are less than 2 scum still alive.

You're all just stating and restating (and restating) your position regarding Musher333 and putting the burden of scum hunting on others. When I say that, I'm looking at HackerHuck, hasdgfas, SL, SeraphicMirth, and Mr Stoofer. Damn it, that's more than half the players.

No wonder we can't get an alternative lynch option.

Now that SeraphicMirth has stated she will hammer on wednesday, scum just have to stall the game a bit more ><

[lord_hur]

Lord_Hur - would you rather that I restate (and restate) my position on you and SpringLullaby? I've even recently mentioned that I would switch back to either of you if I cannot get the lynch on Musher.

Yes, I overreacted and globalized too much. You did give some names (even if they weren't well justified in my opinion).

[lord_hur]

Come on people, can't you come up with two or three names of people you'd be fine with getting lynched ?

This is an astonishing thing to say! You have been one of the most "backseat" players in this game, by which I mean that you have not contributed to moving this game forward ("moving the game forward" = "lynching people", by the way).

BACKSEAT ? Lord, I feel I have taken more risks in this game than every other games I played put together. Just with this post you criticized, I could have stayed low, but did not.

I was sure I was going to get this kind of reaction from someone, and was expecting it from either springlullaby, HackerHuck or Mr Stoofer.

Yes, I know you're expecting people to follow everything you say, just like for Guardian's lynch. Sorry for not going with the flock and agreeing with you on those lynches, but you see, I have an opinion too.

I am well willing to lynch people, and have voted. But yes I know, not for the person YOU want.

You are not the most vocal in my opinion, but somehow most of the people seem to follow you, to the point that you are leading the game. I feel like all of the most important decisions in the game (pressing on Guardian to get a claim, Guardian's lynch, pressing on Musher333 to get a claim, Musher333's pending lynch) have been ignited by you. And, except Guardian's claim, which was necessary, I disagree with each of them.

When you think a bus is going to crash into a wall, you question the driver. This is why I'm suspecting you.

Also, I know you are a much better player than me, so I don't expect to get you lynched, at least this day. But I stated what I thought nevertheless, knowing what I would get from you. And you say I'm a backseat player ? Hahahaha

[lord_hur]

And once again lord_hur fails to post a detailed case, but just loudly shouts at the most vocal player without giving proper reasons.

Okay. I suspect 3 people, so :

Hypothesis n° 1 : "proper reasons" is refering to Mr Stoofer :

I gave my main reason for suspecting you. The second is because you seems to be way too sure about people's scumminess. I tried to metagame you, and couldn't find another game in which you appear to be as sure as in this one. But of course, it wasn't a complete reading.

However, I did come across two interesting things you said :

434 Communiqué Scum

Two things I didn't like about it:
When I'm scum (and I know why the nightkill happened) I find it hard to resist the urge to tell the town why the victim was killed -- especially when it is A WIFOM kill. Post 26 sounded like Miztef might have failed to reist such an urge.

And who commented right after Guardian's lynch ? Hmm...


421 Smalltown 2

Yeah, that is classic scum -- i.e. don't antagonise anyone else, focus on the guy you think you can get lynched today.

It could be seen as what you were doing till I attacked you.


Hypothesis n° 2 : "proper reasons" is refering to HackerHuck :

Yes, Mr Stoofer is right, I *never* gave my reasons for voting him (and I left a few out) :

I agree with tvod. There is no way we can work out why some roles were revealed and some weren't. And even if we did work it out, how would that catch scum?

You asked for ideas, I gave one.

I know you are SO sure of Guardian's being scum, but I am not. Knowing it for sure would greatly influence the way I see the game.

I personally do not think Musher333 is behaving scummy ; to me he is being pretty consistent with the way he played in last game.

Right now I suspect :

- Mr Stoofer (mainly for trying to establish Guardian as known scum while we still have no certainty about it)
- hasdgfas (lack of agressiveness and low actual content posted)
- HackerHuck (low content, in post 427 he attacks hasdgfas for appearing too convinced about Guardian's scumminess, but no word on Mr Stoofer who claims to be absolutely sure, and lastly the second part of his last post is exactly what I picture scum would say to appear townish)

These are not decisive arguments though.

Lord_hur - how have I been non-commital? I believe I locked onto Guardian and stuck with him almost all of day one.

Actually, that's another thing I have against you, thanks for reminding me : you voted for Guardian while at the same time saying you didn't know if he were town or scum.

But here, I was talking about day 2 :
- your only attack this day (springlullaby bussing me) is pretty weak and hard to give credit to in my opinion - though I might be biased, so if someone else could comment on this...
- your Musher333 vote was only following Mr Stoofer with no additional argument -> weak vote
- you basically voted me just because someone else was voting me (and someone you're apparently suspecting of being scum, at that), while implying that you voted just to get the game going -> weak vote

Actually, that's another thing I have against you, thanks for reminding me : you voted for Guardian while at the same time saying you didn't know if he were town or scum.

Quote please.

These are the two post you did after your actual vote :

I'm not sure if I need to repeat any of the things that everyone else has said about you Guardian. It should be obvious to you why Millers are bad news to the town. It's a crappy claim because the only way to prove it is by lynching you. Scum would never kill a miller, which means that the town has to do it at some point. The only good news is that cops won't bother wasting an investigation on you, but you pretty much blew that by crumbing cop to begin with.

Like the others, I think you forgot that I was already voting you, so my vote was more of a confirmation than anything else - hence the context.

If you're town, then I guess you did us a favor by claiming miller so we can kill you sooner rather than later, but that's small comfort.

In this one, you're only considering Guardian being town.

Jesters are pretty darn rare and I sure would hope that self-voting invalidates their win condition.

Guardian, I don't like how you keep trying to portray my vote on you as one that is based on your supposed millership. I had voted you prior to that and your claim has only cemented my vote. My comments were all related to how millers are bad news for the town. If you can tell me one good thing the miller does for the town, then I will admit I'm wrong (but I still won't pull my vote).

I've seen scum claim miller as often as I've seen town do it. It's not going to get you off the hook in my eyes.


I don't like how TVOD reacted by pushing the jester angle, but I'm not sure if it should be chalked up to newbishness.

In this one, Guardian was right (in my opinion) to believe you voted him for being a miller. We don't know what's in your head, but that's actually the way it appeared to me too. And you nail the "vote for townie" further by saying you won't unvote, even if he proves you you're wrong.

And to conclude this, you say metagaming couldn't tell you whether he had a greated chance to be scum or town...

EBWOP : I posted all the reasons I voted him, and attack him when possible, and there are not many opportunities, as he's next to non-existent in my opinion - and the few attacks he does are really uninspiring and worthless to me, as I've already said.

Hypothesis n° 3 : "other reasons" is refering to springlullaby :

Hell I'm tired of copying and pasting, so go and check the stuff yourself. BUT I must say my suspicion of her has seriously dropped. One of the stronger reasons for this is she metagamed for Musher333, and I think scum wouldn't get to such length, as they know whether Musher's scum or not.

That is all.

[lord_hur]

EBWOF : And who commented right after Guardian's lynch ? Hmm... Additionally, I can say I myself couldn't resist this urge to comment (and nearly got nailed for it by Cicero) in the only game I have been scum in so far.

[lord_hur]

I was Scum on both those games you quoted. So you can hardly take that as valid evidence of my true opinions. I was making stuff up to try to get innocent people lynched.

I can only judge regarding my own play, but when I play scum myself, I try to play as close as I would if I were town. This includes fake-scumhunting using scumtells I really believe in.

[lord_hur]

I'd take a Hur lynch over a HackerHuck lynch no problem.

Surprising. May I know why ?

[lord_hur]

When I have some more time, if SL doesn't hammer Musher, I'll present a full case.

I hope it is a good one. Given how you played till now, I have very high expectations.

[lord_hur]

Wednesday's gone, no news from SM, and no one's playing. Great

[lord_hur]

And yet another attack. Here we go.

Lord_hur I could go for, on re-read of him, he repeatedly references that he's new (which always looks like a "build a cover for myself if I make a mistake" to me).

Hmm I always thought this to be ridiculous and a very weak way to vote someone. My opinion still stands. I never said this out of the blue, always to justify a question, one of my opinions probably being not so accurate, or on one occasion that mistake at the very beginning of the game (still not sure it was a mistake, btw). Also, I'll answer the same thing than to springlullaby, who already asked this : if this was a cover, tell me what scumtell I was trying to cover.

He also seems like he's trying too hard to look like he's hunting scum but his questions are often vague or off-the-point of actually finding scum (such as theoretical game questions as seen in hur-view #73,77 just to point out a couple). During my re-read of springlullaby, I noticed she referenced post #107 saying that it was pretty articficial, and that is also the one I felt was "trying too hard" as I just mentioned.

A town mind doesn't come up with so many vaguely relevant questions addressed to so many people, it is more likely a post by a scum who want to look busy - especially since you don't seem to be garnering any insight in the game from the answers you got.

QFT

Another point raised by springlullaby, to which I already answered in post 528.

and, not to throw this in your face, but really..

This includes fake-scumhunting using scumtells I really believe in.

It just totally makes sense that you said that, with how some of your posts come off.

Could you be even more vague? So I can even more not defend myself ?

He throws suspicion out to a lot of places but doesn't really ever come down on anyone. He avoided voting in the first lynch. I can understand if one doesn't agree with a lynch that is about to happen, but to have no vote on anyone? interesting.

Metagame me and you'll see it's my usual play. I have never participated in a mislynch, because I only vote when I have very solid grounds for it, and to force scum to go and place their votes (who are nearly always causing townie lynches on day 1). Maybe it's bad play, but it is how I play right now (and I've not seen it to be particularly inefficient, so it will stay like that for now).

He becomes crazy defensive towards Spring when she brings a case against him. I think she had some valid points

How about, I don't know, raising them before and allow me to answer them then ? I specifically said why I didn't reply to springlullaby’s case as a whole, and invited people to say which point interested them. SL did that, and I gave a detailed defense. But maybe you don't care much about my answers ?

and his comment:

others : keep in mind that it's pretty easy to find a few scumtells in that many posts, and she's having an easy time because no one can strike her back since she's replacing a ghost.

Who cares if "no one can strike her back"? A good defense should require no "strike back" against the person questioning you. In fact, that's a terrible defense--just attacking the person who has been questioning you. I think this was grasping at straws to make her arguments seem invalid.

It was not my defense, only a comment. And it is true. It is always easier to attack when you have nothing to defend. I have been attacked many times during this game, more than anyone else I’m sure, and it was pretty hard to set these attacks aside, put myself in aggressive mode and scumhunt, especially after springlullaby’s. Also, I was in a worse position than her, because she had nothing to account for, so I could not use anything she said before for my defense (like “hey, you made a similar mistake here”). This is why I was saying she had the upperground. But again, it was a comment, not a defense, stop twisting things.

I have thoughts on others, I took them down on notepad for later, but I'll not post them since that would make this post ridiculous long and also this vote would be my end result anyway.

Why going out of your way to say this ? To justify how you so suddenly seem to be focused on me, maybe ?

Also, this is my last post before deadline as well. I won't be able to get back on until school starts Monday. I've stated my case for who I think should be the lynch, and who I don't think should be the lynch..there's not much more I can do. I wish I could read a defense,

How kind of you.

but these things have been brought up against hur before and his defenses are kinda lacking. So, I think my vote would stay the same.

Good luck all.

My defenses are lacking ? Completely vague. Proof or it didn't happen.

You *never* before these two posts expressed suspicion at me, and now you throw me this joke of case, almost all ripped off from spinglullaby’s, and just go V/LA till the end of the day ? How nice.

If you’re town, you should be ashamed.

If you’re scum, it makes sense if you’re expecting a big onslaught from strife220 and needed to place a vote. That only makes sense if Musher333 is scum though, and I don’t think he is. Or maybe you’re scum and afraid of hammering him ? Not very plausible either. So I must admit it makes you rather pro-town right now, unless I'm missing something.

[lord_hur]

I picked out Hur's unusual speculation on game mechanics/power roles, and an incident where he defended Hasdgfas as potentially scummy.

What, you're talking about those very first posts of the day? Everyone discarded that, even Mr Stoofer, and you unearth it now in very vague terms?

I don't remember defending hasdgfas, mind enlighting me ?


I can't believe I'm going down on such ridiculous cases ><

Because you perfectly know that HackerHuck will jump on me first thing, and as such that I'm done for.

I guess I should claim, but I'm not even sure it will help town. I have the feeling we had a role to reveal people, but that it was kabenon007's >< Dammit, vote me for this role speculation, I don't care anymore. Well, at least I know what no-reveal games are now, and I'll be sure to avoid them like the plague, or ask for a replacement if I'm unknowingly dragged into one.

lord_hur out

[lord_hur]

My logic I believe was already stated - there are 5 of us not on the Musher-wagon, one of which is Hur himself, and to get a lynch off on someone Hur, we would need all 5 of us (4 not voting Musher + Stoofer) together.

You're wrong, 4 are enough to lynch because of the deadline. But you already knew that, right ?

[lord_hur]

Unofficial Votecount

Musher333 - 3 (hasdgfas, HackerHuck, Singing Librarian)
lord_hur - 3 (SeraphicMirth, strife220, Mr Stoofer)
HackerHuck - 2 (lord_hur, springlullaby)

Not voting

: Musher333

This means that if the deadline hits, no-one will be lynched; but strife220 has promised to vote for Musher (or just unvote) to ensure that that does no happen.

Or i could just

Vote:Hur

Dammit, nice revenge Musher333, you really got me. I really thought you were town

[lord_hur]

Big question : should I claim ?

Only one person can persuade me to.

[lord_hur]

Hur:

My re-read started from D1, and I had to stop after an hour or so in. I only got to I think page 11 or 12, so I'm sorry but the only evidence that I got concretely written town was about that time frame. Your D2 play has been more than questionable.

hasdgfas is scum. At the bottom of the thread, where it says 'display posts by previous', click hasdgfas, and view his posts in isolation:

Post 0 -- he random votes for HH because he doesn't want to get hacked. He is showing care for his own well being, even in his joke.

Post 1 -- he addresses a question posed to someone else (tvod, conveniently), and talks about how "we" shouldn't do "x" because that would help "them" -- the scum. This post is trying to be helpful but isn't, and interjects so tvod can't answer the question untainted.

Post 2 -- Similarly appears to be helpful but isn't really. 'Why not play mafia?'. ...

Post 3 -- hasdgfas is definitely directing tvod here; my most probable read is scum directing scum (partner, why do you act suspiciously? act better!) but I think that scum directing new town to look nice a pro-town is an almost as probable scenario.

Post 4 -- Casts minor suspicion and comments on how 'he doesn't like' something.

Cliff Notes

hasdgfas has posted a few times but hasn't really been helpful, though he has appeared to be so while talking about theory. imo scum love to do this. He is guilty of directing tvod and protecting him from a question, a connection a townie would not want to make. Lastly, his diction leads me to believe that he is scum; instances such as the 'I don't want to get hacked' and careful use of we to refer to town and they to refer to scum make me believe this.

SlySly is also probably scum.

tvod may or may not be scum; there is evidence of a hasdgfas connection, for sure. I am unsure how much faith I have in the direct case on tvod.

unvote: slysly ; vote: hasdgfas

fos: slysly, mfos: tvod

My own opinion on this :

0. Very far-fetched.

1. I don't like the use of we and them too, I must admit. But it is not a good scumtell in my books.

2. Well it wasn't the most useful thing to say, but it was on point regarding what VOD said. No scumtell.

3. He was trying to make VOD talk, not directing him. And I would have been interested in VOD's answer too. Pro-town to me.

4. Same, he's just provoking a reaction. Slightly pro-town.

On the other hand, I do agree with you on the fact hasdgfas has only said pretty obvious things, that others would surely have asked if he wasn't there (on 4 I actually said the same thing right before he did, probably Sarnath'ed him though).

I don't think it should get him a vote for now though. But if he still hasn't contributed much in a week or so... (<- this is a subtle hint directed to hasdgfas).

Post 94, if you ask. Guardian made an attack post, and Hasdgfas makes a short counter. You then make a big chain-saw defense on D1 in the scum-hunting stage. There's no pro-town reason to do this. Guardian's attack wasn't very good, but there was absolutely no need for it to be responded to by anyone other than hasdgfas himself.

The attack was so stupid, I thought it wouldn't hurt to reply to it. Ends up it hurt me.

[lord_hur]

What letter does their name begin with?

their name ? I don't get it.

[lord_hur]

If you're town, you should definitely do a full claim Hur. Roles may not be revealed upon death, so you should spill Name, Job Title, and Job. Not sure if there's a point to claim food or not.

It is not you who can persuade me to claim. I can give town my name, I don't see how it can hurt. Habibah. But not my role.

[lord_hur]

Clarification about why : I am quite sure it will be not revealed, and (at least from my reasoning) it would give an incredible advantage to scum if I did claim.

[lord_hur]

What letter does their name begin with?

their name ? I don't get it.

It was a joke.

I have to go now and I won't be back by deadline. Have a good weekend everyone.

I think I know where you were going, but your assumption was wrong. Oh, whatever.

[lord_hur]

What letter does their name begin with?

their name ? I don't get it.

It was a joke.

I have to go now and I won't be back by deadline. Have a good weekend everyone.

I think I know where you were going, but your assumption was wrong. Oh, whatever.

There is no common name.

[lord_hur]

Oh well, they got what they wanted, as on reread I essentially claimed.

I am Habibah, mother of Mosi. My husband died when he was young, and now he works hard to look after me. He is the most precious son, and I could not love him more. Now that Hebrews threatening the Egyptians, we have sworn to protect each other until death. I know my son is innocent, and my son knows I'm innocent.

My lover is SingingLibrarian, as shows this post :

I am seriously wondering what guardian would have to gain if scum by claiming miller. Admitedly Guardian has playede a wierd game and I would dread the day I was given a miller role to play. But In a set up when there is not certainty we have a cop I can't understand drawing so much attention to yourself and trying to insinuate cop. Esentialy Guardians play style led to suspicion and this claim which is always going to be difficult and unhelpful to town.
Ima still on the

very likely jester

side of things and urge no one to hammer.
actualy putting that miller thing in code is dubious to the max as it shows serious forward planning about having to claim in the near future. What better cliam to get lynched than miller, even a scum claim is less likely to get you lynched than miller.
I think guardian played towards a planned claim that I am finding hard to believe but I think of it as less likely to come from scum than from a

Jester

.

Since Guardian's stupid (in my opinion) case against hasdgfas, the possibility that he is a jester has also been on my mind. Logically, there were only 2 explanations to that case :

1. It could be that Guardian is a very bad cop with a guilty result. Since I've read a few of Guardian's games though, I know that he usually plays quite well, so it was not very probable. Moreover, even that the worst cop would do this is quite mindblowing. Yet it was (still is...) a possibility, light as it was/is.
2. Largely more alluring to me is the possibility that he is a jester. Obviously, as Mr Stoofer pointed out, the main advantage of this theory is that it could explain his surprisingly bad playing (including his uncalled-for claim), but I kept the whole thing to myself as it was very early speculation and this is my first game with unconventional roles.

VOD just worded the same theory now though, so I thought I'd say that for maybe the first time in the game, I agree with him.

Excellent progression in your understandabilty lately, by the way

First letter of each post = SL IS MY LOVE (it was before springlullaby entered the game).


Scum, great play.

I usually have exceedingly low self esteem, but I think I have played reasonably well in this game, and that the cases were indeed stupid. So, shame on you town.

[lord_hur]

Also, shame on Mr Stoofer, what did you expect from a french player under extreme pressure, answering within a few seconds ? That I was going to understand immediately your obscure reference ? I'm sure at least half of the players, under these circumstances, wouldn't have gotten it either.

The answer was H. And I officially hate you.

[lord_hur]

#
# The Siblings do not know each other's alignments (in this case they are often called Lovers).

Never actually played a game with lovers before. Do you know SL's alignment?

I know my son is innocent, and my son knows I'm innocent.

[lord_hur]

"their name" was referencing, I believe, to scum's name, which is Hebrews in the PM, while everyone was using "Jews".

[lord_hur]

I was first thinking he was talking about a common name of us, as lovers, thus my "there is no common name".

[lord_hur]

And when I said "I don't get it", it's because I was struggling (under pressure) with the use of "their" with a singular. I know It will sound stupid to you, but that's what was in my head. We don't have that in french.

[lord_hur]

Hmm after a quick recount, it seems I'm not lynched yet. If anyone believes in my claim enough to examine it, could they unvote ? Just so scum doesn't hammer me.

I wouldn't so mind it seriously, after this horrible day, but he or she would probably get away with it, amidst the other weak reasons put against me ><.

[lord_hur]

#
# The Siblings do not know each other's alignments (in this case they are often called Lovers).

Never actually played a game with lovers before. Do you know SL's alignment?

My PM doesn't mention the term "lover". There is no role name, just bolded "you know your son is innocent, and your son knows you are innocent".

[lord_hur]

Scum couldn't get away with hammering in a situation like this, so you should be safe there.

Hoping SLibrarian checks in to have her say soon.

I hope you're right. Nothing can surprise me anymore in this game. And SL's a "he", you're probably mixing things up with SM and the other SL, springlullaby.

[lord_hur]

I think at this point Lord_Hur should not claim any more from his role PM unless he feels that it would benefit the town.

I don't feel like endangering town even more. This lover claim is probably already more info than they ever dreamed of. Two for the price of one ! Now they just need a cop claim and they're set. Great, town, just great.

The worst thing is, I tried to review the attacks made against me, and they are all so unconvincing, I cannot single one out.

Except maybe Musher333's, which is the worst, hands down.

Mr Stoofer's 4 reasons were really really bad, and in this order : a lie, an insult, wishful thinking, and a mere opinion tainted with OMGUS.

strife220 lied when saying he was going to present a case, but at least he didn't make a seemingly artifical one like the others. His second argument was also the only one I can qualify as reasonably good in the whole set that's been thrown at me recently (springlullaby, for all her insults, got one or two good ones back then). It was indeed a bad bad mistake from me. Incidentally, I taught some newbs how to avoid it like a week before. A newb teaching even more newbs, haha.

I didn't like SM's at all, both on form and content, but it is probably the least scummy to me, taking into account her being a girl. She took most of her arguments from springlullaby and supported her "great attack", taking what I said against her as scummy. I work with women and can tell they are sometimes completely irrational when it comes to defending one of them against "the evil males". So, not too suspicious of her.

[lord_hur]

Another question for you Hur. Why would revealing your role harm town in anyway? If you thought you were going to be lynched, SLibrarian was going to die as well. How would that help scum?

I think you should explain why you think Singing Librarian would die if Lord_Hur was lynched.

I don't get it either.

I think the answer is obvious, but I will answer it after you do explain your reasoning as HH asked.

[lord_hur]

A no-reveal game is the perfect opportunity for scum to claim masonry and get away with it.

Yes, that got me so nervous, and also why I really didn't want to claim. And it's also why I really hate no-reveal games right now. Our main strength, the ability to 100 % confirm one of us upon the other's death, is completely nullified by this rule. Completely evil.

[lord_hur]

And I'm not making this up now, I detered SL to claim for this very reason back then, when I was being attacked by springlullaby and he looked like he was going to claim to protect me.

[lord_hur]

Oh yeah, I don't know if it can be exploited, but I'm on Guardian's lynch scene picture, on the far left. It only shows 7 of us, though, and Mosi/SL isn't on it.

[lord_hur]

I'm not sure whether the two of us do function as 'lovers' (ie one commits suicide if the other dies), as the role pm is not clear on that.

I used the term because I thought it was what the PM, who didn't give a role name, described. Mason is more like it though, as we both know each other's side. And I'm 99% sure that the other won't die, since nothing at all indicates it.

[lord_hur]

Claimed Masons both living through the night?

~raises eyebrows~

Why am I not surprised by this comment ?

But anyway, this vote is pretty logical :

- NKing one of us would confirm the other. It is *much* better to get us lynched, right Mr Stoofer ?

- We have no active power, so outing another was the better choice ; strife220 could have been cop for all we know. I sure hope that scum didn't get the info either.

I am quite desperate (no, completely desperate) about town's chances, due to this hideous mislynch, who was completely obvious to me.

Musher333, your claim was one of the most believable I have ever seen, it's not your fault that you were lynched, in my opinion.

Sadly, there's so much one can do, especially when he's the other one tagged as suspect.

In other news, I think we're in LyLo.

[lord_hur]

Also, I can't believe we both pmed each other about our chances to get NKed, our last words if it were the case, etc. It was obvious we wouldn't be the target...

[lord_hur]

Hey btw SL, I was right and you were wrong about Musher333, and I was right and you were wrong about TVOD/strife220 (well granted, you only expressed suspicion, but he was the only one you mentioned as suspicious).

So, how do you feel about considering the opinion I pmed you about ?

[lord_hur]

Claimed Masons both living through the night?

~raises eyebrows~

My post wasn't so much saying "you must be lying" as "something odd is going on".

Then, could you explain what you mean by "something odd is going on" ?

Also, I'd like an explanation (the more detailed, the better) on what led you to ask me that "what's their name ?" question before the deadline.


I have things to say about hasdgfas' attack, but I'd prefer springlullaby to answer first.

[lord_hur]

There's really no reason not to kill one of the masons

I thought my two reasons were pretty solid.

That leads me to believe the scum either knew there would be a reveal last night

This doesn't make any sense. That there's no reveal doesn't change anything in our case : if one of us was NKed, it would mean that he's town, so that the claim is true and thus that the other is confirmed mason.

[lord_hur]

The "something odd" refers to the fact that masons are usually the first target for the scum because they are confirmed innocents. If the Doc hadn't died, the Scum might not target a mason in case he had doc protection; but the doc died before night started. On the other hand, strife220 was pretty much confirmed innocent if Guardian was Scum, so maybe it's not such a big point.

Hmm I fail to see how masons would be confirmed innocents. They just claim, like the others. I in fact thought that we would be harder to confirm than vanilla, since we share some characteristics with scum (knowledge of the other's alignment ; town or scum could accuse us of trying to cover a relation between us with a townish explanation).

As to your other question, see post 851. You said that that there was someone who could persuade you to claim (but didn't explain). I was going to ask "is the other person me?" (as a joke, because I knew it obviously wasn't me) but instead I asked "what letter does their name begin with" as a joke.

Do you often use "their" for a singular ("only one person") ? Anyway, I believe you. Re-reading it, it does make sense, especially about the timing between posts. So no towntell for you about this.

[lord_hur]

We could use a couple prods, on SM and springlullaby, maybe hasdgfas

[lord_hur]

We could use a couple prods, on SM and springlullaby, maybe hasdgfas

Well, maybe not hasdgfas.

[lord_hur]

Mr Stoofer, do you have any reason to believe that this setup was conceived with only 2 scum-aligned players ?

[lord_hur]

Okay. I am confirmed town. And the next victim. Yay.

The setup looks clear now on the scum side : extraordinary powers (ending a day ? OMFG). With this kind of stuff, it is impossible that they are more than 2. Wish I was scum, but I never am ><

Right now, I am tempted by two votes :

- Mr Stoofer : was at 75% scum before Musher333's lynch, is now sitting happily at 95%
- stark : right when he replaces, the big magiks fly ? I don't like coincidences.

Though I really want to see Mr Stoofer dead.