Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean I could just post memes and collect a huge commission but sure let's do this.

[CultOfAthena]

@ Cult - join me on Thor?

I don't really understand your case against Thor.

Firstly: maybe I'm wrong with that interpretation, and although that's scummy behavior there are reasons I think he could be town. So I've got conflicting evidence. And I made it pretty clear that without that conflicting interpretation giving me pause on this, Maxous basically becomes my top scumread.

But you never gave the "conflicting" part of that interpretation – you never gave any reasons that you townread him. I don't see why, from your perspective, your Max townread exists at all, and combined with the fact that you were voting him just yesterday and never gave any indication of rethinking that read, I'm pretty sure you're faking your reads.

Also: what was the deal with your RC scumread?

As I thought about it more, I
- became more and more convinced that the way RC rapidly flipped on me was nonsensical and he kept becoming more and more confident that I was scum until he was eventually just working with a gameview that assumed that I was and I didn't buy whatever he looked at and saw.
- considered that the spat with Transcend came from scum motivation.

either way it's moot now so shrug

The question I was really trying to ask was "did you forget about the tracker claim or what?"

VOTE: Errantparabola

CoA what do you think about Thor and Texcat?

I'm fine calling Thor town – he's noticed a lot of the same things I have and made points I planned to make before I could make them. Less confident in texcat being town – the whole "looking for people off the wagon" and related conversation seems like busywork / looking useful moreso than actually doing anything useful.

[RadiantCowbells]

Transcend doesn't get his

second

shot. Which changes everything. That's why the Vig was made two-shot in this setup, and why vigs are numbered evenly in general. Eventually we could end up in MyLo, where optimal play is to no-lynch. Killing Transcend essentially means town lost a town-controlled kill.

We get to lylo either way...

First of all: you are fully competent enough to understand the difference between MyLo and LyLo.
Pretending not to suggests that you see some tactical motivation in attributing the Transcend shot to Transcend's reads, which given his reads, well.

If it's not my style (and...what awareness are you claiming of my style?) then what makes you think I changed how I play scum in order to play this weird new way here?

I think that it is absolutely your style to push scum win-condition, then when it fails, to derail onto a bus to repair your standing in the town.

You're saying it's impossible for a lurker to be scum?
Because that's the only way this is an issue.

The implication is that you should have someone that you scumread more than a lurker, though I will agree that his point is not great and stand by you as the logically correct one here.

I gave a case on you - it's that your case on me is so blind and bad as to require you to be scum.
It's actually very slightly like your case on me - except the it doesn't require you to be intentionally playing bad as scum for the case to work as a scum case.

I don't think that anything that you have done this game requires you to be playing bad as scum.

I did.
Though in what I'm quoting you'd already established that you thought it was most likely for zero to one bussers max.
And I felt that two bussers was more likely than zero bussers and was curious to see if I understood you correctly.
Once you clarified I then got curious and asked more.

This interaction feels far less pointed than I would expect and sort of reads as SvS attempts at distancing to me.

If you believe Vig kills are superior or equal to lynches, sure.

They statistically are, but given that I have an 11/13 shot record on vigs in finished games, I may have a different feeling about them than is the norm.

I mean, just to clarify, he killed an active poster who most people had as a town read who was indeed town.
Describe how that's different from a scum kill.
I'll wait.

This is really your top priority to discuss? Because it feels like scum posture to me.

So now you're offering a really mediocre complaint of me talking theory when, basically it just happened this phase, for about three posts while I was also actively mauling your case on me and explaining why you're scum.
You duck all of that to make this complaint.
And post some videos.

Meh.

This doesn't feel like the way you talk as town. You held up far better than this against me throwing the book at you in the game with Una.
The way you post reads like you're faltering under pressure and that reads as more likely to come from scum you than as town who believes that you are being pushed by scum.

@Beef - literally moz is not dealing straight, and I think it's obvious. However you are apparently reading my rebuttals and his and finding him to be full of facts and me to be full of lies.
Why?
Please explain it, I'd be curious to see the thought process.
I promise not to even debate it - and just leave it alone for others to assess, but I want to see you unpack it.

Again: this feels like you're scum who believes that the case against you is objectively shit.
How exactly I define the difference between you being town and you being scum here isn't something in the realm of logic but I feel like there's something conscious in you attempting to boil everything down to facts and lies.
You obviously feel that you can compete in a game of macho repartee with anyone in this game (with the possible exception of me) so you're focusing on that but I feel like as town you'd be more like
asserting yourself as obvtown in general? Whereas here you're trying to limit the domain of the game to the one you feel you most excel in and I feel like you'd be more confident as town.

As a very minor third point - your reads also require moz and I to be scum theatre if I'm scum and we're amongst your strongest reads.
Why in the world would you think scum would pull the gambit we are in trying to make a 1 v 1 situation today? That doesn't seem like good play (or maybe you're going with the moz theory that I don't understand how to play to my wincon as scum at all )

Actually I think it would be a reasonably strong play but if no one else besides me wants to lynch Mozamis for pushing scum wincondition harder than anyone in the game then I'm just going to move on and tell Transcend that he's a smurfwit for that as well as his Moneybags shot in postgame. There's not going to be any PR catches on people who played well as scum, the only goal is to get one person into the strongest possible position at one point.

1 I can agree his activity is non-alignment indicative. I'm just not sure where the 'banking on dying' becomes face value town true. If he was scum he could have been banking on dying from Transcend's shot just as much as if he were town, yeah? So, even if true - how is it alignment indicative?

This is true but doesn't address the heart of what Maxous was saying: not that scum wouldn't expect to die but that he didn't expect scum to talk about it in that manner.

Because his case is so thin as to be an inverse of itself. It's literally laughable how hard he's going in considering how empty his case is - and I'm the only one saying it while I have Beef claiming he's making good points and you claiming I'm not being clear (like...whut?) and Flubber so blind needing to tunnel me that, even though he is kind of aware moz's case is a laugh, he can't bring himself to unvote.

So first off, the actual case for you being scum is fine, just some of the other stuff is uhh questionable.
Second off, people's grasps of logic are rarely related to your alignment and if you're going to predicate your reads around town being logical and scum being illogical you might as well not play mafia.
Finally, Flubber being aware that Moz's case is a laugh doesn't mean that he thinks Moz is wrong. If I make a shit case on you and you completely unravel it you are not automatically town for it.
I also am not super fond of Moz's case on you or Moz's play in this game but that doesn't mean that I am obligated to think that you are town.

The case on me is dumb, RC, and you are the first one voting me who objectively I'm aware should be better than this.

Weren't you just earlier in the day phase talking about how you don't respect my play because of the Transcend so on and so forth?

As for my actual case on you being scum, that will follow.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like there's a sort of simmering resentment that's a fairly global response to scum who are under pressure that they think is bad, and I see it squarely in your play today.

[Thor665]

Yeah I get it, moz is tunneling on you. But why is his case on you weaker than all the other votes he made day 1. it's the same behaviour.

No, it's actually different, because my issue isn't the tunnel - it's the lack of ability to even explain the concept of the case.
Could you point out the vote he did yesterday that matches this in your mind?

@RC - short answer to your wall - meh, I feel I could wordplay mock you the whole time.
But I really want to focus on one aspect, and one aspect alone;

You claim that what I did *is* within my meta.
I KNOW this is a questionable claim, because I literally don't think bussing is good scum play, and openly advocate not doing it as scum, and haven't really bussed in years.

So...where are you getting the idea that I play with weak ass bussing exactly?

I do look forward to you getting to the 'point' but will note in your wall you already had to cede a couple issues of logic to me.
So this is already feeling shaky as a concept coming from you.

[Thor665]

So...where are you getting the idea that I play with weak ass bussing exactly?

Feel free to also describe it as brilliant bussing, or mediocre bussing, or even just vote parking a scum buddy at end of day in a very soft distance play.
I don't do any of those things either.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay here's my scumcase you

you vanished from the thread when I showed up because you were quaking in your boots at the thought of having to hide from Town!RC

easy

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

I guess if you're town I'll at least have this to throw in your face for the rest of eternity if you ever get tewaked by me not respecting your play.
So, sure, whatever.

[RadiantCowbells]

@Everyone else.
If RC answers True to #1 and #2 *and* I flip town at any point in this game. Please lynch RC.

And she's currently backing this case, so I presume she's at least somewhat going to answer true/true...

but even one more post on that from you is active lurking.

I mean I can give you the long form if you really want it, but it won't be right this minute

[Thor665]

So that was serious?
In that case, yeah, when you can do the long version I look forward to it.

[RadiantCowbells]

No, that specific thing was a joke. The fact that I think you're scum is not.

[Thor665]

So the short form of the case on me is that you think I'm active lurking?

[RadiantCowbells]

The actual short form of the case on you is that you don't

feel

like you would as town, that you're posturing in a bunch of ways that I wouldn't expect you to as town, and that I'm getting to PoE stages.

[Thor665]

Well, you can't debate 'feels' so if the long form of the case is just going to be a lot of quotes with you saying 'feels' I don't need it, so only post it to convince others.

[Thor665]

But the fact you soft admited on some of the logic...maybe reexamine your feels.
Unless you're scum, keep doing what you're doing then.

[Flubbernugget]

I have more thoughts on klick but if I state them outright I'm going to expect a heisenberg-esque town read on them. Hopefully I'll remember what they were.

On the other hand, moz being town on the consensus of being "oblivious" does not line up with them being scum together. The clean answer here is that two scum in a pool of four means that two in the pool don't have to be scum together. I'm surprised klick didn't take this route.

RC makes a good point that Thor playing ace attorney with moz's case is nai at best.

[Flubbernugget]

In the unlikely chance of Thor flipping town, Beefster deserves to be powerlynched into a new dimension.

[Beefster]

In the unlikely chance of Thor flipping town, Beefster deserves to be powerlynched into a new dimension.

I'd replace out for lack of enthusiasm, but I suspect that will pass and I don't have any other active games right now. I've been doing a lot of introspection lately and haven't really put much energy into the game.

[mozamis]

we shouldnt vpte Ep his las tpost was very town - actually gave out...you know..reads.
he is lynch bait.
@ COA - well, you thought i was "erratic" day 1, and yet i was right about Hewho. Maybe just take a leap and go with it.
And if you need "proof before belief", thor is a very active player who hasnt doen any scum hunting all game.
You understand that, yeah?

[mozamis]

or am i being erratic?

[mozamis]

I see you making a lot of noise about the timing of my case, but, yeah, since my case is based around how terrible your case on me is it didn't exist till you pushed me.
Maybe that makes it OMGUS - but that doesn't actually qualify as showing my case as bad nor scummy.
Feel free to explain that.

I mad emy cas eon you. You then OMGUsed me -having voted for EP and not made a case on him- and gave as a reason "Moz cas eon em is so bad it must be scum", which iis not a case.

Also, yes, I did present a case on HWS. You can keep squealing that I didn't. But it's factually there, I've linked it, and you've even quoted part of it and complained that it was too small. So, I don't believe you and it makes me sad if anyone does.

your cas eon He who swims was "I'm sheeping", see p1065

@Beef - literally moz is not dealing straight, and I think it's obvious. However you are apparently reading my rebuttals and his and finding him to be full of facts and me to be full of lies.
Why?
Please explain it, I'd be curious to see the thought process.
I promise not to even debate it - and just leave it alone for others to assess, but I want to see you unpack it.

[mozamis]

the fact that Hewho scum leaned Ep ,alomg with Flubber, strongly suggests Ep town and the next on the lynch bait list.
I like Kilcks analysis of hewho, hes back to town.
shit is that erratic?

[mozamis]

it is amazing how Thor talks so much and yet hardly any reads. And he shows no real interest in getting ME lynched, and i'm his scumread lol Like he showed no interest ingetting Hewho lynched.

[Flubbernugget]

In the unlikely chance of Thor flipping town, Beefster deserves to be powerlynched into a new dimension.

I'd replace out for lack of enthusiasm, but I suspect that will pass and I don't have any other active games right now. I've been doing a lot of introspection lately and haven't really put much energy into the game.

You're going to have to take a new angle because I don't read people based on effort