I tend to agree with BRO here. I think F3s are more competitive. And...if you're losing votes to the spoiler effect or because two good players are splitting votes and someone "undeserving" is winning...then the people who split the votes did not play optimally and shouldn't have brought each other to the end to split the votes.
I know I've actively considered that in games before. It's why I refused to work with Boudica in Civ, because our games were too similar.
I also don't think it has really happened that vote splits have caused issues. The only one of those five winners I can remember there being some controversy around re: split votes was Karass, but I think the people that didn't vote for her all had her as #2 and likely would've voted for her in a heads-up situation against either of the other two finalists anyway. I suppose there's some salt at Blackberry trollvoting Garen at FTC and giving Shaco the win. I dunno, I think it makes it even better to have to consider the calculus.
I'd also prefer a close vote and surprising result based on split votes to someone just blowing someone else out of the water and it not even being close, I think/
In post 48, BROseidon wrote:Part of why F3s have been non-competitive on the show also has to do with changes to how Ponderosa works and players caring more about fan-responses to their jury votes in a meta sense. I don't think it's an issue with F3s as much as it is an issue with that metagame.
I've only seen 4 seasons of the show and F3 was more interesting to me as a viewer because every F2 was painfully obvious who was going to win. Even in the last season I watched
Season 28
where the last challenge winner for some reason didn't pick the goat, it was obvious that the person who picked was going to lose.
In post 57, hiplop wrote:my biggest issue with f3s is that it just grants the outsider so much pwoer when that isn't the case in an f2.
The Yates theory doesn't hold up that well, I don't think.
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If players A and B were close allies, player C comes in with and advantage since players A and B compete for the same votes, while player C has their own set of votes.
It's like Will said wrt Civ. He didn't want me at the end because our games were very similar, so me being in FTC competes for votes that liked the style of play we were both going for
In post 60, BROseidon wrote:If players A and B were close allies, player C comes in with and advantage since players A and B compete for the same votes, while player C has their own set of votes.
It's like Will said wrt Civ. He didn't want me at the end because our games were very similar, so me being in FTC competes for votes that liked the style of play we were both going for
Something that encourages backstabbing isn't always terrible though.
Make bigger alliances
How do you even get to the merge without being alllied to half of it anyways?
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I have opinions but honestly they both have their merits. For all of the problems with F2s, I like that they can produce interesting, unexpected winners (even if the FTC itself is slightly less competitive) and there is something so exciting about there only being two people left. Maybe some of that's nostalgia, but I just find F2s more dramatic and conclusive.
F3s probably work better on the show because of the high number of goats/totally unvotable contestants compared to MS and they probably do have more competitive FTCs generally speaking, however they also can lead to the person who sweeps the FTC vote getting there more often which I think is less interesting and there's spoiler effect stuff that I guess falls somewhat on the players, but that's still a sucky way to lose.
Also our sample size is still a bit small to really make sweeping conclusions about F3s, but given that on this site anyway we've never had a zero vote getting third place contestant, the spoiler effect is literally impossible to avoid. All you can do is attempt to minimize it.
I dunno, I like both. I don't think we should totally swap to one or the other. I do prefer that it is either known or can be easily deduced if it's a F2 or F3 though. I think players having information is important because it's hard to plan for both.
Someone being able to win via F3's because they were able to socially convince their allies not to vote them out is a feature to me, not a bug like some of y'all seem to be arguing.
It's supposed to be the best Social Game and the more voting teamwork F-R-I-E-N-D-S-H-I-P etc is made irrelevant the further we get from that.
Like.. isn't the game getting away from alliances and becoming about idols big moves firemaking etc what people don't like?
I am not an unbiased person arguing this, of course. F3's are much more suited towards someone like me who can barely win challenges to save their life. It actually hits on another problem I have with F3 FICs on the forum which is immunity challenges are very often random and biased towards people like Klick or Drench who are good at flash games/have good reflexes. At least we've moved away from 24-48 hour endurance challenges..
I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. Freeze
And this was like me realizing that you were a serial killer. - Hathor
"but I must declare my love to Edelgard here, i offer you the treasure I stole from Raphael, an idol LOL" - Shamir
In post 65, Shadoweh wrote:At least we've moved away from 24-48 hour endurance challenges..
Oh have we?
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Every endurance challenge ever: Here are the scores!
Person who can't type words to save their life: 10 minutes!
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I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. Freeze
And this was like me realizing that you were a serial killer. - Hathor
"but I must declare my love to Edelgard here, i offer you the treasure I stole from Raphael, an idol LOL" - Shamir
(1:55:11 AM) ahallucinogenic: it's ok drench
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(1:55:31 AM) Drench394: i can't wait